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  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    edited October 2019

    nico67 said:

    What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .

    What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.

    And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .

    Well theyll either agree it in principle and bypass Benn as part of that or vote it down and force Benn.
    If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them ;)
    What happens if a deal comes back preambled by the EU which states "This is the full and final offer. There will be no extension beyond 31/10 except to allow technical implementation of this deal. This deal must be ratified before 31/10. Otherwise UK leave with No Deal after 31/10".

  • nico67 said:

    What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .

    What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.

    And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .

    Well theyll either agree it in principle and bypass Benn as part of that or vote it down and force Benn.
    If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them ;)
    What happens if a deal comes back preambled by the EU which states "This is the full and final offer. There will be no extension beyond 31/10 except to allow ratification of this deal. This deal must be ratified before 31/10. Otherwise UK leave with No Deal after 31/10".

    It would be perfect to many
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    nico67 said:

    What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .

    What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.

    And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .

    Well theyll either agree it in principle and bypass Benn as part of that or vote it down and force Benn.
    If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them ;)
    They could actually pass the deal in principle but amend the legislation to state that this doesn’t nullify the Benn Act as officially this is not yet a concluded deal, that only happens when the full legal text is done and signed off by both sides .

    Why should MPs remove the Benn Act when things could still unravel .
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TGOHF2 said:

    “Those cheating racist winners”

    What is your point? Does "winners" negate the force of "cheating racist"?
    My point is that those that lost the referendum are still in the denial stage about the causes of the defeat.

    I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
    We're crystal clear why we lost. Too many of those 17.4m were and likely still are thick as mince.
    The GFC was caused by people with Oxbridge degrees and Harvard MBAs.
    Blokes in white vans with plumbing diplomas might have managed the economy better..
    Yebbut they often make a hell of a dog's breakfast of the plumbing.
    As I said below, though, their VAT expertise could be of great use to the Treasury.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    nico67 said:

    What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .

    What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.

    And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .

    Well theyll either agree it in principle and bypass Benn as part of that or vote it down and force Benn.
    If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them ;)
    What happens if a deal comes back preambled by the EU which states "This is the full and final offer. There will be no extension beyond 31/10 except to allow ratification of this deal. This deal must be ratified before 31/10. Otherwise UK leave with No Deal after 31/10".

    It would be perfect to many
    It's not completely outside the realms of possibility that Boris will try to get this in there. It makes sense for the insistence we WILL be leaving one way or another and has the added virtue of being his own Benn Act. Effectively.

    Conjecture. But everything at the moment is conjecture.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    nico67 said:

    What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .

    What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.

    And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .

    Well theyll either agree it in principle and bypass Benn as part of that or vote it down and force Benn.
    If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them ;)
    What happens if a deal comes back preambled by the EU which states "This is the full and final offer. There will be no extension beyond 31/10 except to allow technical implementation of this deal. This deal must be ratified before 31/10. Otherwise UK leave with No Deal after 31/10".

    The answer is within your words! Its Boris or bust
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Bercow!!!!!!!!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    GIN1138 said:

    Bercow!!!!!!!!

    What?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Dominic Grieve just seemed to suggest on the BBC that if a second referendum resulted in Remain that Leavers would be entitled to then campaign to get a majority for us to leave without a third referendum.

    Leaving the EU seems to be obviously within the rights of a majority government so clearly they would? But entitled or not there's bound to be at least some kind of a market for brexit after it loses a (hypothetical) second referendum and I'd have thought they'd campaign on enacting the first one and ignoring the second rather than making if the best of three.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .

    What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.

    And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .

    Well theyll either agree it in principle and bypass Benn as part of that or vote it down and force Benn.
    If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them ;)
    They could actually pass the deal in principle but amend the legislation to state that this doesn’t nullify the Benn Act as officially this is not yet a concluded deal, that only happens when the full legal text is done and signed off by both sides .

    Why should MPs remove the Benn Act when things could still unravel .
    Well I'd expect the government to word the bill in such a way as to nullify Benn or amend it to allow BJ to ask for a short technical extension. It's up to MPs to vote the deal down if they want to play the 'we dont trust him' card and sell that as valid to a weary electorate
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Noo said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    FPT @HYUFD

    Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”

    Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)

    Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
    Evidence please
    This is a statement that can be falsified more easily than it can be verified, so evidence to the contrary please. E.g. any prominent or well known far right, xenophobic, British nationalist or racist person who has advocated for continued UK EU membership? I genuinely don't know of any but if you do - you do seem to know a lot of interesting people - I'd be glad to hear about it.
    You made the accusation

    But I suspect that some anti-Semites on the left voted to remain
    That's a fair point, but for reference we were talking about racism. If we're agreed that antisemitism is racism -- and I do agree -- I never again want to hear anybody tell me that islamophobia isn't.
    Well it's complicated by the fact that Jewish beliefs are, in the main albeit not exclusively, associated with Jews (either Israeli Jews or people of Jewish descent with other nationalities).

    Islamic beliefs are not tied to nationality or race to that extend.

    (In any event, trying to split hairs between different types of discrimination is a futile pursuit. That being said, there is a tendency among some - not suggesting you - to call legitimate anti-radical-Islam measures as "islamophobia")
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    GIN1138 said:

    How come the Extinction Rebellion morons have suddenly been cleared from the streets just because Her Majesty is travelling around London?

    It's almost like when Parliament/Government/Police wants ER out of the way they can get them out of the way? ;)

    ER are morons? or ER is a moron?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited October 2019

    GIN1138 said:

    Bercow!!!!!!!!

    What?
    He appeared briefly on screen.

    Will be his final QS of course. Will be the last time he does HMQ the amazing gift of allowing her to spend a few minutes in his company.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Bercow!!!!!!!!

    What?
    He appeared briefly on screen.

    Will be his final QS of course. Will be the last time he does HMQ the amazing gift of allowing her to spend a few minutes in his company.
    Plus hes all dressed up like a little slut today, the saucy mare
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    GIN1138 said:

    How come the Extinction Rebellion morons have suddenly been cleared from the streets just because Her Majesty is travelling around London?

    It's almost like the the Parliament/Government/Police wants ER out of the way they can get them out of the way? ;)

    Its raining apparently
    XR have been out in the rain all week; I think this is an instance of the police being told the pols want a good photo opp, so get the plebs out of the road, like they did with the homeless before the royal weddings...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Bercow!!!!!!!!

    What?
    He appeared briefly on screen.

    Will be his final QS of course. Will be the last time he does HMQ the amazing gift of allowing her to spend a few minutes in his company.
    Thought he had taken HM out with a slide tackle at least
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    GIN1138 said:

    How come the Extinction Rebellion morons have suddenly been cleared from the streets just because Her Majesty is travelling around London?

    It's almost like when Parliament/Government/Police wants ER out of the way they can get them out of the way? ;)

    ER are morons? or ER is a moron?
    HMQ's mode of transport is very eco-friendly. They shouldn't have a problem with it. And they can take home the horse sh*t to upscale into a table-lamp or vase.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,769
    GIN1138 said:

    How come the Extinction Rebellion morons have suddenly been cleared from the streets just because Her Majesty is travelling around London?

    It's almost like when Parliament/Government/Police wants ER out of the way they can get them out of the way? ;)

    I first read that 'ER' as meaning 'Elizabeth Regina" and wondered why parliament/government/police wanted her out of the way. Seemed a bit harsh and uncalled for!
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Bercow!!!!!!!!

    What?
    He appeared briefly on screen.

    Will be his final QS of course. Will be the last time he does HMQ the amazing gift of allowing her to spend a few minutes in his company.
    You never know with Bercow , he might change his mind again which would be quite something !

    Bercow is pompous and full of himself but he pissed off the ERG big time so gets a pass from me .
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060

    GIN1138 said:

    How come the Extinction Rebellion morons have suddenly been cleared from the streets just because Her Majesty is travelling around London?

    It's almost like when Parliament/Government/Police wants ER out of the way they can get them out of the way? ;)

    ER are morons? or ER is a moron?
    HMQ's mode of transport is very eco-friendly. They shouldn't have a problem with it. And they can take home the horse sh*t to upscale into a table-lamp or vase.
    Makes good compost (apparently, I have no personal knowledge of this...)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    The office I'm working in - half way around the world - has BBC News on in their lobby, showing the Queen's Speech. Lots of passers-by with very bemused looks on their faces at the spectacle.
  • Did Black Rod call it the House of Kings? Is that right?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Skinner has finally run out of hilarious things to say
  • Sandpit said:

    The office I'm working in - half way around the world - has BBC News on in their lobby, showing the Queen's Speech. Lots of passers-by with very bemused looks on their faces at the spectacle.

    It is on CNBC and CNN and Euronews
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Sandpit said:

    The office I'm working in - half way around the world - has BBC News on in their lobby, showing the Queen's Speech. Lots of passers-by with very bemused looks on their faces at the spectacle.

    We may have totally lost the plot over the past three years but we can still put on a bloody good show when we want to. :D
  • Skinner has finally run out of hilarious things to say

    I think that ship sailed quite some time ago.
  • "My Government"?

    Isn't it the People's Government? :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Dont think Corbyn was interested in small talk with Boris on the way to the Lords.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    "My Government"?

    Isn't it the People's Government? :)

    No.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Skinner has finally run out of hilarious things to say

    I think that ship sailed quite some time ago.
    Much like labours hold on Bolsover ;)
  • "My Government"?

    Isn't it the People's Government? :)

    No its always been HMG.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    Off topic. At Shannon airport the departures area has a display of photos of famous arrivals at the airport. Just as you enter the area for pre clearing US immigration there is a huge picture of Fidel Castro. That is some impressive Irish trolling.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Wouldn't if be wonderful if Her Majesty said **** this crap, tore up Boris's QS and read out Cromwells speech instead?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Who will take over the Black Rod heckling duties when Dennis Skinner retires? It's tradition now, someone has to do it.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    She should really just do the Degeneration X crotch chop and walk out
  • "My Government"?

    Isn't it the People's Government? :)

    No its always been HMG.
    Yebbut the People elected the Government!
  • kle4 said:

    "My Government"?

    Isn't it the People's Government? :)

    No.
    Monarchist crawler :lol:
  • What did Skinner say?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    What did Skinner say?

    'Not now love'
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't if be wonderful if Her Majesty said **** this crap, tore up Boris's QS and read out Cromwells speech instead?

    That would be a surreal experience indeed.

    I think itd be funny if they gave an old draft of the speech and, being committed to following the rules, she read a passage like 'my government is committed to insert law and order spiel here, and will introduce insert nonsense measure here.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    What did Skinner say?

    "Wibble. Pah-Paaaaah. Beep"
  • nico67 said:

    What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .

    What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.

    And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .

    ..
    If there is no agreed legal text of a WA then there can't be a MV. If a MV isn't carried then the Benn Act kicks in unless the Commons agrees No Deal. Amending either the Benn Act or the MV requirement needs primary legislation which there is no time or majority for.

    Boris could put down a Commons motion on the draft terms of anything agreed in principle at EUCO and there may be a political case for doing so ( as well as risks ) but unless it's a MV or Benn Act resolution to support No Deal then the Benn Act requirement to seek an extension kicks in.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    "My Government"?

    Isn't it the People's Government? :)

    No its always been HMG.
    Yebbut the People elected the Government!
    Nope. They elected 650 MPs.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138

    "My Government"?

    Isn't it the People's Government? :)

    No its always been HMG.
    Yebbut the People elected the Government!
    No, they elected local representatives.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Selebian said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How come the Extinction Rebellion morons have suddenly been cleared from the streets just because Her Majesty is travelling around London?

    It's almost like when Parliament/Government/Police wants ER out of the way they can get them out of the way? ;)

    I first read that 'ER' as meaning 'Elizabeth Regina" and wondered why parliament/government/police wanted her out of the way. Seemed a bit harsh and uncalled for!
    If she said she didnt want Brexit the government would evict her sharpish!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    @Noo FPT re citizens voting

    I don’t think we are actually disagreeing that much

    You say members of a community should get to vote. I believe that members of a demos should get to vote.

    A demos is - I believe - different to “people who happen to live in an area”

    To be a member of a demos you have to be qualified as such. Those criteria change over time, but fundamentally if you are not qualified from birth you must make a conscious choice to join.

    I suspect you view “Europeans” or “humans” as a single demos, while I limit it based on national units)

    Re your point on commonwealth voting - fundamentally it’s a hang over from the principle of Civitas Romanus Sum - I am a Roman Citizen. Due to a strange intellectual psychodrama the Brits regarded themselves as the inheritors of the Roman Empire. If you were a Citizen of the Empire you had the right to vote in U.K. elections and when the Empire was dissolved it was decided to retain that principle. On Ireland it was explained on the last thread: it is nothing to do with the GFA but rather a legacy of our long and complex history)

    How do you reconcile that with the principle of “no taxation without representation”?
    Partly because that was a specific slogan at the time where people being taxed were not represented in parliament at all.

    Even in the UK people who cannot vote (e.g. children, criminals and peers) pay VAT etc.

    In the case of resident non-citizens there is a clear pathway to obtaining the vote

    (As an aside, I have no issue with resident non-citizens electing local councils, because their remit is largely practical. For Westminster it can be citizens and the Commonwealth/Irish voters). For referendums and other "rule-setting" votes it should be strictly citizens only).
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Who is going to win the sweepstake on the length of The Queen's Speech?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,769

    Dominic Grieve just seemed to suggest on the BBC that if a second referendum resulted in Remain that Leavers would be entitled to then campaign to get a majority for us to leave without a third referendum.

    Leaving the EU seems to be obviously within the rights of a majority government so clearly they would? But entitled or not there's bound to be at least some kind of a market for brexit after it loses a (hypothetical) second referendum and I'd have thought they'd campaign on enacting the first one and ignoring the second rather than making if the best of three.
    Yes, they'd be entirely entitled to do that. Second ref remain would simply annul the first, not resolve the issue for all time, any more than the original ref 40 years ago.

    There seems to be a feeling on here amongst some that this makes Brexit inevitable at some point - Tories will have Brexit in manifesto and they will win a majority at some point. Not sure myself - most people really don't (and never did) have Brexit as a top level issue and I'm not sure the electorate will want to reopen it again once resolved, whichever way*. It might depend on Labour** - if they were more centrist at that point then Brexit in the Tory manifesto could push a lot of potential voters to Labour, even while hoovering up some of the 15% or so for whom Brexiting seems the primary issue (Brexit party polls). The Conservatives are (historically) good at pragmatism and adopting policies to get elected, so Brexit may also get dropped f it doesn't look like it will bring electoral success.

    *I'd also not expect a rejoin after Brexit for at least a decade, unless Brexit went very wrong. I don't think there will be an appetite to revisit it again soon.

    **Or LD if they were seen as a credible alternative at that point
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Is she were to read out a Cromwell speech the government would probably rather it be the one about the tyranny of eternal parliaments.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Boris and Swinson make a lovely couple at the front there Corbyn has fucked off by the looks of BBC coverage
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't if be wonderful if Her Majesty said **** this crap, tore up Boris's QS and read out Cromwells speech instead?

    That would be a surreal experience indeed.

    I think itd be funny if they gave an old draft of the speech and, being committed to following the rules, she read a passage like 'my government is committed to insert law and order spiel here, and will introduce insert nonsense measure here.
    Probably just a side-effect of being 93, but HM's tone and general demeanour gives me the impression she could insert "yeah, whatevs" after any of these commitments without missing a beat.

    Final sentence "Can't imagine any of this old bollocks will make it through anyway. Seeya for Jez's version when I'm back from Sandringham. Don't even think about disrupting my turkey".
  • PB seems chock full of Monarchist Crawlers(TM) today :lol:
  • The Guardian is flagging up comments from DUP MP Jim Shannon to the Irish Times. They appear to harden the DUP stance on Boris' proposal. Though without fuller context it's hard to be definitive.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Corbyn is an utterly humourless charmless twat
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,215
    edited October 2019

    Boris and Swinson make a lovely couple at the front there Corbyn has fucked off by the looks of BBC coverage

    Edit: Got my Sturgeons and Swinsons mixed up - nevertheless I'll let the next thought stand ;)

    Sturgeon seems to have remembered she is leading the Scottish Nationalist Party, not "remains little helpers in Scotland" recently. She's been reminding Blackford of the same slowly recently.
  • kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't if be wonderful if Her Majesty said **** this crap, tore up Boris's QS and read out Cromwells speech instead?

    That would be a surreal experience indeed.

    I think itd be funny if they gave an old draft of the speech and, being committed to following the rules, she read a passage like 'my government is committed to insert law and order spiel here, and will introduce insert nonsense measure here.
    Probably just a side-effect of being 93, but HM's tone and general demeanour gives me the impression she could insert "yeah, whatevs" after any of these commitments without missing a beat.

    Final sentence "Can't imagine any of this old bollocks will make it through anyway. Seeya for Jez's version when I'm back from Sandringham. Don't even think about disrupting my turkey".
    That was the conservative manifesto posing as the Queens Speech
  • Which century are we living in? The 21st or the 11th? :lol:
  • Corbyn is an utterly humourless charmless twat

    Whats he done?
  • The Guardian is flagging up comments from DUP MP Jim Shannon to the Irish Times. They appear to harden the DUP stance on Boris' proposal. Though without fuller context it's hard to be definitive.

    The DUP should be reminded that NI as a whole voted to remain by 56% to 44%.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    PB seems chock full of Monarchist Crawlers(TM) today :lol:

    As Terry Pratchett observed, whoever designed humanity left on a crucial flaw - our tendency to bend at the knee.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Corbyn is an utterly humourless charmless twat

    Whats he done?
    Refusing to engage in any conversation with Boris or the HoC official walking back from the QS. Miserable old f*cker
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    Corbyn is an utterly humourless charmless twat

    Whats he done?
    Nothing. Now or ever.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't if be wonderful if Her Majesty said **** this crap, tore up Boris's QS and read out Cromwells speech instead?

    That would be a surreal experience indeed.

    I think itd be funny if they gave an old draft of the speech and, being committed to following the rules, she read a passage like 'my government is committed to insert law and order spiel here, and will introduce insert nonsense measure here.
    Probably just a side-effect of being 93, but HM's tone and general demeanour gives me the impression she could insert "yeah, whatevs" after any of these commitments without missing a beat.

    Final sentence "Can't imagine any of this old bollocks will make it through anyway. Seeya for Jez's version when I'm back from Sandringham. Don't even think about disrupting my turkey".
    That was the conservative manifesto posing as the Queens Speech
    Which is what happens when the Opposition won't raise a vote of confidence.

    Three weeks from now we'll be getting the Conservative tax cuts manifesto to go alongside today's document, if the opposition continue to do nothing except procrastinate.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Which century are we living in? The 21st or the 11th? :lol:

    Not the 11th - the symbolism of the Black Rod moment wouldnt make sense then!
  • The Guardian is flagging up comments from DUP MP Jim Shannon to the Irish Times. They appear to harden the DUP stance on Boris' proposal. Though without fuller context it's hard to be definitive.

    The DUP should be reminded that NI as a whole voted to remain by 56% to 44%.
    How's that any different to suggesting the Lib Dems be reminded that the UK as a whole voted to leave, or that GB as a whole voted to leave?

    The DUPs represents leave voters, their own voters voted to leave even if they were a minority overall.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TGOHF2 said:

    “Those cheating racist winners”

    What is your point? Does "winners" negate the force of "cheating racist"?
    My point is that those that lost the referendum are still in the denial stage about the causes of the defeat.

    I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
    We're crystal clear why we lost. Too many of those 17.4m were and likely still are thick as mince.
    Well as long as you cling to that view you won’t enjoy the future.
    I will enjoy the future tremendously. But my enjoyment of it or otherwise doesn't alter the simple fact that plenty of those 17.4m leave voters were dumb. Not all of course. But far too many, including perhaps some of those will be adversely affected by their very own vote. Who knows.
    To be fair, a lot of the 16m remain voters were dumb as well.

    In fact, I would go so far as to say that almost 50% of the UK population is of below average intelligence.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Noo said:

    Mr. Divvie, you realise there was a once-in-a-generation referendum on Scottish independence, right?

    And the 'sovereign will of the Scottish people' that Sturgeon likes to pretend she cares about was to stay in the UK.

    Still, at least the SNP are consistent. They want to ignore what the Scots want for Scotland and what the British want for the UK.

    The will of the people of Scotland was to stay in the UK, and so in the UK Scotland stayed.

    The will of the Scottish people in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and 2010s was not to have a Conservative government. Yet the Conservative & Unionist party kept standing up for what they believe in, standing in every Scottish constituency.
    The Scottish people are not conservative, but the Conservatives have every right to stand for their vision. The Scottish people didn't want independence, but the SNP and Greens have every right to stand for their vision.
    Voters choose their local representative not their government.

    In each of the decades that you cite, the MPs returned by Scottish voters to Westminster accurately reflects the results in each of the constituencies
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Pulpstar said:

    Her quip really wasn't helpful. Anyway hopefully it won't hurt her campaign too much. If she ends up being the nominee I'd vote for her, just, over Trump.
    There are very few undecideds in the culture war, just those who are more or less motivated to vote. It's a boat race not a tug of war.

    I doubt the quip will make the slightest difference to voter identification. It may persuade more on both sides to vote.

    (It was a well-delivered, but hardly original, put-down.)
    It was also nothing remotely like calling a quarter of all voters "deplorables" and shouldn't be compared to that at all. Deplorables was a terrible gaffe, that joke was not.
    No, but the willingness to snark (theoretically) at a voter is symptomatic of the way they view the voters with these views.
  • The Guardian is flagging up comments from DUP MP Jim Shannon to the Irish Times. They appear to harden the DUP stance on Boris' proposal. Though without fuller context it's hard to be definitive.

    The DUP should be reminded that NI as a whole voted to remain by 56% to 44%.
    How's that any different to suggesting the Lib Dems be reminded that the UK as a whole voted to leave, or that GB as a whole voted to leave?

    The DUPs represents leave voters, their own voters voted to leave even if they were a minority overall.
    Because the Backstop is (or will be) NI-specific, no?
  • kle4 said:

    Which century are we living in? The 21st or the 11th? :lol:

    Not the 11th - the symbolism of the Black Rod moment wouldnt make sense then!
    But he/she ain't Black, bro! :lol:
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. kle4, not to mention William the Conqueror didn't exactly read out speeches that British (or English, or Saxon) politicians wanted him to.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't if be wonderful if Her Majesty said **** this crap, tore up Boris's QS and read out Cromwells speech instead?

    That would be a surreal experience indeed.

    I think itd be funny if they gave an old draft of the speech and, being committed to following the rules, she read a passage like 'my government is committed to insert law and order spiel here, and will introduce insert nonsense measure here.

    From 1964 Private Eye Cover No 75.

    https://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers/cover-75
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    Boris should probably chalk it up as a victory that she didn't call in sick and ask Chas to read it out. Or Andrew.

    They could have dusted off one of the Queen Mum or D of E excuses (slight head cold etc) without anyone except *every conspiracy theorist on Twitter* batting an eyelid.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    If 'Steps will be taken to protect the integrity of democracy' does that mean an electoral system like that in Scotland?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2019

    moonshine said:

    Has “People’s Vote” been officially dropped for “Confirmatory Referendum”?

    Can’t we just call a spade a spade and call it the Losers Revote?

    The basic problem Leavers have is that the more the public have seen of their plans, the less they like them. They have abjectly failed to create a consensus.

    Their lack of introspection about this failure is the most enduring mystery of Brexit for me.
    It’s an glib comeback, but the lack of introspection about their failure to win the referendum from Remain extremists genuinely is mine. How can they not get it?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2019
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...

    Been a big weekend for marathons.

    Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
    Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds21U7coQzI
    Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
    I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
    I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
    Yep, 17.01 for 100m, 422 times in a row! :open_mouth:
    Set the running machine at the gym to 20 and run for two hours... he’ll have been waiting for you a while at the end
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    If 'Steps will be taken to protect the integrity of democracy' does that mean an electoral system like that in Scotland?

    No it means Fay, H and Lisa armed and guarding polling booths
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    dr_spyn said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't if be wonderful if Her Majesty said **** this crap, tore up Boris's QS and read out Cromwells speech instead?

    That would be a surreal experience indeed.

    I think itd be funny if they gave an old draft of the speech and, being committed to following the rules, she read a passage like 'my government is committed to insert law and order spiel here, and will introduce insert nonsense measure here.

    From 1964 Private Eye Cover No 75.

    https://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers/cover-75
    So how many "pooves" are there in Wilson's government?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,129
    edited October 2019
    isam said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...

    Been a big weekend for marathons.

    Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
    Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds21U7coQzI
    Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
    I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
    I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
    Yep, 17.01 for 100m, 422 times in a row! :open_mouth:
    Set the running machine at the gym to 20 and run for two hours... he’ll have been waiting for you a while at the end
    A number of years ago i went to the world cross country and seeing elite distance runjing in the flesh, i dont think i could sprint as fast as they were running even for 100m and they werent kipchoge...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    Pulpstar said:

    Which century are we living in? The 21st or the 11th? :lol:

    Preferred decade :.

    Labour 1970s
    Tories 1950s
    Lib Dems 1860s
    DUP 1690s
    SNP 1300s
    Brexit party 60-50 BC
    As the majority of Brexit voters seem to descended from Angles or Saxons, wouldn't they still have been in Germany in 60-50 BC? Or rather, perhaps, Germania!
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,993
    Ishmael_Z said:

    sarissa said:

    Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...

    Nobody seem so be mentioning that the 2 hour marathon was as contrived as Bannister's 4 minute mile in 1954
    You must be fun at parties.

    Could you outline the ways in which the kipchoge marathon was "contrived" in a way, that, say, the moon landings were not?
    " To reduce aerodynamic resistance for Kipchoge, event organizers decided there would be a group of five pacemakers running in front of him in a V formation, according to Reuters. Kipchoge would run behind them, with two more runners following behind.

    The pacers worked in teams, rotating in twice during each of the course’s 9.6-km (6-mile) laps. An electric car preceded the runners, projecting a system of lasers to show where the pacers should run."

    Athletic feat, yes. Competitive event? Hardly.
  • If 'Steps will be taken to protect the integrity of democracy' does that mean an electoral system like that in Scotland?

    No it means Fay, H and Lisa armed and guarding polling booths
    What a tragedy.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627

    If 'Steps will be taken to protect the integrity of democracy' does that mean an electoral system like that in Scotland?

    No it means Fay, H and Lisa armed and guarding polling booths
    What a tragedy.
    A triggered Mr Eagles will be along in 5, 6, 7, 8...
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,597

    nico67 said:

    What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .

    What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.

    And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .

    Well theyll either agree it in principle and bypass Benn as part of that or vote it down and force Benn.
    If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them ;)
    What happens if a deal comes back preambled by the EU which states "This is the full and final offer. There will be no extension beyond 31/10 except to allow technical implementation of this deal. This deal must be ratified before 31/10. Otherwise UK leave with No Deal after 31/10".

    Parliament should revoke A50 and say "OK, we need to go back to the drawing board and work out how to leave, then."
  • If 'Steps will be taken to protect the integrity of democracy' does that mean an electoral system like that in Scotland?

    No it means Fay, H and Lisa armed and guarding polling booths
    What a tragedy.
    That quip is better best forgotten.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    CatMan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't if be wonderful if Her Majesty said **** this crap, tore up Boris's QS and read out Cromwells speech instead?

    That would be a surreal experience indeed.

    I think itd be funny if they gave an old draft of the speech and, being committed to following the rules, she read a passage like 'my government is committed to insert law and order spiel here, and will introduce insert nonsense measure here.

    From 1964 Private Eye Cover No 75.

    https://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers/cover-75
    So how many "pooves" are there in Wilson's government?
    Wait. Putting aside the offensive and outdated homophobia for a moment, is that really the plural of poof?

    Like hoof and hooves?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    kle4 said:

    Is she were to read out a Cromwell speech the government would probably rather it be the one about the tyranny of eternal parliaments.

    Given the fact that Brexit has demonstrated that the monarchy is nothing more than a rubber stamp for the PM, I cannot see why she bothers at all. She might as well get Boris to read out his own fantasies policies and stay in Buck Palace with a nice warm cuppa...
  • mwadams said:

    nico67 said:

    What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .

    What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.

    And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .

    Well theyll either agree it in principle and bypass Benn as part of that or vote it down and force Benn.
    If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them ;)
    What happens if a deal comes back preambled by the EU which states "This is the full and final offer. There will be no extension beyond 31/10 except to allow technical implementation of this deal. This deal must be ratified before 31/10. Otherwise UK leave with No Deal after 31/10".

    Parliament should revoke A50 and say "OK, we need to go back to the drawing board and work out how to leave, then."
    Its amazing how many people seem to be unconcerned about Parliament being burnt to the ground.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Charles said:

    I suspect you view “Europeans” or “humans” as a single demos, while I limit it based on national units)

    So you think England should vote on its relationship to other nations as England?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2019
    Anorak said:

    CatMan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Wouldn't if be wonderful if Her Majesty said **** this crap, tore up Boris's QS and read out Cromwells speech instead?

    That would be a surreal experience indeed.

    I think itd be funny if they gave an old draft of the speech and, being committed to following the rules, she read a passage like 'my government is committed to insert law and order spiel here, and will introduce insert nonsense measure here.

    From 1964 Private Eye Cover No 75.

    https://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers/cover-75
    So how many "pooves" are there in Wilson's government?
    Wait. Putting aside the offensive and outdated homophobia for a moment, is that really the plural of poof?

    Like hoof and hooves?
    4 Poofs and a Piano don’t think so!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Poofs_and_a_Piano
  • kle4 said:

    Is she were to read out a Cromwell speech the government would probably rather it be the one about the tyranny of eternal parliaments.

    Given the fact that Brexit has demonstrated that the monarchy is nothing more than a rubber stamp for the PM, I cannot see why she bothers at all. She might as well get Boris to read out his own fantasies policies and stay in Buck Palace with a nice warm cuppa...
    Possibly because its her job?

    She gets to live in a luxurious palace and has to work one day a year and for that you wonder why she bothers?
  • If 'Steps will be taken to protect the integrity of democracy' does that mean an electoral system like that in Scotland?

    No it means Fay, H and Lisa armed and guarding polling booths
    What a tragedy.
    That quip is better best forgotten.
    Causing offence was the Last Thing On My Mind.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    kle4 said:

    Is she were to read out a Cromwell speech the government would probably rather it be the one about the tyranny of eternal parliaments.

    Given the fact that Brexit has demonstrated that the monarchy is nothing more than a rubber stamp for the PM, I cannot see why she bothers at all. She might as well get Boris to read out his own fantasies policies and stay in Buck Palace with a nice warm cuppa...
    Frankly, every public engagement she does is poor compensation for inflicting Prince Andrew on the nation.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    mwadams said:

    nico67 said:

    What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .

    What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.

    And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .

    Well theyll either agree it in principle and bypass Benn as part of that or vote it down and force Benn.
    If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them ;)
    What happens if a deal comes back preambled by the EU which states "This is the full and final offer. There will be no extension beyond 31/10 except to allow technical implementation of this deal. This deal must be ratified before 31/10. Otherwise UK leave with No Deal after 31/10".

    Parliament should revoke A50 and say "OK, we need to go back to the drawing board and work out how to leave, then."
    Its amazing how many people seem to be unconcerned about Parliament being burnt to the ground.
    So we should give in to terrorism?
  • Charles said:

    I suspect you view “Europeans” or “humans” as a single demos, while I limit it based on national units)

    So you think England should vote on its relationship to other nations as England?
    I do but sadly the Scots didn't want to be an independent country.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    PB seems chock full of Monarchist Crawlers(TM) today :lol:

    God Save The Queen! (Until we declare a Republic)
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    mwadams said:

    nico67 said:

    What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .

    What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.

    And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .

    Well theyll either agree it in principle and bypass Benn as part of that or vote it down and force Benn.
    If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them ;)
    What happens if a deal comes back preambled by the EU which states "This is the full and final offer. There will be no extension beyond 31/10 except to allow technical implementation of this deal. This deal must be ratified before 31/10. Otherwise UK leave with No Deal after 31/10".

    Parliament should revoke A50 and say "OK, we need to go back to the drawing board and work out how to leave, then."
    Its amazing how many people seem to be unconcerned about Parliament being burnt to the ground.
    So we should give in to terrorism?
    "Direct Action" dear chap,
This discussion has been closed.