We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
It is indeed.
Yet bizarrely some people in this country want to have politicians from Spain and Hungary and other countries that have created messes like that to set our laws rather than control our own laws from our own country with MPs we elect. Odd isn't it?
Quite a few were dancing jigs over the fact that a foreign leader would be able to use his power to veto the will of the British parliament.
I think quite a few had a sense of irony. The way to prevent that from happening will be to exit the EU.
FPT - I’ve only just caught up with Cyclefree’s superb thread. Truly excellent stuff and I agree entirely.
Bravo.
The astonishing thing about the whole scandal is that even someone as politically interested as @NickPalmer was honest enough to admit not being aware of the details of the Henriques report.
Something which ought to rock the police establishment has passed almost unnoticed.
I hardly knew about it at all to be honest.
And yet it was all over the front pages of the newspapers on two successive days, lead story on various news programmes etc.
If your reaction is at all representative - and I have no reason to believe it isn’t - little wonder governments and the police and others can get away with such appalling behaviour.
Right now there is almost no interest in good administration. It's one of the biggest problems in Britain right now. For things to change, first people have to care.
We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
Nonsense. All of this is available in Spain. Law breaking is not.
I believe the only mechanism for Catalonia to have a 'legal' referendum is for it to be agreed to in the Spanish parliament (not too different from the UK). Just imagine the squawking if a UK EU referendum could only have been permitted by Brussels.
that is the case for scotland though.
Aye, hence the 'not too different from the UK'...
Which, in of itself, is justifiable, whether one agrees with it or not (I'm personally sympathetic to such a referendum, even though I favour retaining the union). And it's perfectly compatible with democracy and the rule of law to invalidate such an unapproved referendum.
To imprison your political opponents for a decade or more is not.
FPT - I’ve only just caught up with Cyclefree’s superb thread. Truly excellent stuff and I agree entirely.
Bravo.
The astonishing thing about the whole scandal is that even someone as politically interested as @NickPalmer was honest enough to admit not being aware of the details of the Henriques report.
Something which ought to rock the police establishment has passed almost unnoticed.
I hardly knew about it at all to be honest.
And yet it was all over the front pages of the newspapers on two successive days, lead story on various news programmes etc.
If your reaction is at all representative - and I have no reason to believe it isn’t - little wonder governments and the police and others can get away with such appalling behaviour.
Right now there is almost no interest in good administration. It's one of the biggest problems in Britain right now. For things to change, first people have to care.
I think part of the problem is the specific issue that the report was generated around. There is a lingering suspicion that the establishment have closed ranks to prevent damaging allegations getting out.
What is your point? Does "winners" negate the force of "cheating racist"?
My point is that those that lost the referendum are still in the denial stage about the causes of the defeat.
I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
We're crystal clear why we lost. Too many of those 17.4m were and likely still are thick as mince.
Well as long as you cling to that view you won’t enjoy the future.
I will enjoy the future tremendously. But my enjoyment of it or otherwise doesn't alter the simple fact that plenty of those 17.4m leave voters were dumb. Not all of course. But far too many, including perhaps some of those will be adversely affected by their very own vote. Who knows.
Mr. Divvie, you realise there was a once-in-a-generation referendum on Scottish independence, right?
And the 'sovereign will of the Scottish people' that Sturgeon likes to pretend she cares about was to stay in the UK.
Still, at least the SNP are consistent. They want to ignore what the Scots want for Scotland and what the British want for the UK.
The will of the people of Scotland was to stay in the UK, and so in the UK Scotland stayed.
The will of the Scottish people in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and 2010s was not to have a Conservative government. Yet the Conservative & Unionist party kept standing up for what they believe in, standing in every Scottish constituency. The Scottish people are not conservative, but the Conservatives have every right to stand for their vision. The Scottish people didn't want independence, but the SNP and Greens have every right to stand for their vision.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
I was one of the few kids with the determination to run the whole of the 1500m, rather than stop and walk for a breather, so there's that, but I never considered myself one of the sporty kids.
It's possible that our PE teacher's timing was biased towards being encouraging, I guess - it was an Inner London Comprehensive! Now that Sandpit has given Kipchoge's exact pace I was a bit off it - the time I was given was 17.6s.
I think the fact your pace is apparently faster than a treadmill's top speed suggests either you were above average or there were timing issues. Either way its insanely impressive.
What is your point? Does "winners" negate the force of "cheating racist"?
My point is that those that lost the referendum are still in the denial stage about the causes of the defeat.
I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
We're crystal clear why we lost. Too many of those 17.4m were and likely still are thick as mince.
Well as long as you cling to that view you won’t enjoy the future.
The referendum result was a consequence of people voting on gut feel and instinct rather than reason.
Not that that doesn't happen in other elections, but leaving the European Union is fiendishly complicated and nobody really knew much about it in 2016. Some people have become better informed since.
What is your point? Does "winners" negate the force of "cheating racist"?
My point is that those that lost the referendum are still in the denial stage about the causes of the defeat.
I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
We're crystal clear why we lost. Too many of those 17.4m were and likely still are thick as mince.
The GFC was caused by people with Oxbridge degrees and Harvard MBAs. Blokes in white vans with plumbing diplomas might have managed the economy better..
That was then... ...My old friend the Kurdish journalist Hazhir Teimourian used to tell me sorrowfully: “There is an old proverb – a Kurd has no friends.” I am not sure that is true any more. In the aftermath of the first Gulf war in 1991 the Kurds were driven into the mountains by the vengeful troops of Saddam. The people of Britain were appalled by their misery. John Major was so moved that he set up the no-fly zones that were the precursor to the modern state. In the last few years the links between Britain and Kurdistan have been developing fast, with the first ministerial delegation from London arriving there two years ago. Standard Chartered Bank has established there, as well as many other firms. They are going not simply because Kurdistan has theoretically the sixth largest oil deposits in the world, but because the place is an oasis of stability and tolerance. They have a democratic system; they are pushing forward with women’s rights; they insist on complete mutual respect of all religions. It would be an utter tragedy if we did not do everything in our power to give succour and relief to those who are now facing massacre and persecution, and to help repel the maniacs from one of the few bright spots in the Middle East. Yes, we have got it wrong before; and yes, we cannot do everything. But that doesn’t mean we should collapse into passivity and quietism in the face of manifest evil. These people need our help.
Her quip really wasn't helpful. Anyway hopefully it won't hurt her campaign too much. If she ends up being the nominee I'd vote for her, just, over Trump.
There are very few undecideds in the culture war, just those who are more or less motivated to vote. It's a boat race not a tug of war.
I doubt the quip will make the slightest difference to voter identification. It may persuade more on both sides to vote.
(It was a well-delivered, but hardly original, put-down.)
It was also nothing remotely like calling a quarter of all voters "deplorables" and shouldn't be compared to that at all. Deplorables was a terrible gaffe, that joke was not.
Mr. Noo, no part of the UK is guaranteed that the party they vote for will form the government of the whole country. That's a bizarre view of democracy.
If Lowlands vote a certain way and don't get their chosen party in as the Holyrood Government should they aim to leave Scotland?
If we ever get a Yorkshire mayor and York doesn't back the winner, should it aim to leave?
If York has a mayor and a street in York doesn't back the mayor, should it aim to leave York?
If a house in that street doesn't back the leader of the street should it demand a new street name just for itself?
FPT - I’ve only just caught up with Cyclefree’s superb thread. Truly excellent stuff and I agree entirely.
Bravo.
The astonishing thing about the whole scandal is that even someone as politically interested as @NickPalmer was honest enough to admit not being aware of the details of the Henriques report.
Something which ought to rock the police establishment has passed almost unnoticed.
I hardly knew about it at all to be honest.
And yet it was all over the front pages of the newspapers on two successive days, lead story on various news programmes etc.
If your reaction is at all representative - and I have no reason to believe it isn’t - little wonder governments and the police and others can get away with such appalling behaviour.
Right now there is almost no interest in good administration. It's one of the biggest problems in Britain right now. For things to change, first people have to care.
Well, if a story like that doesn’t make them care, it’s hard to know what will.
I despair. I really do.
Integrity, competence, excellence, plain common-sense, pragmatism: this is what we ought to value. By not doing so and elevating the meretricious, the superficial, the dishonest we are ruining much of what made Britain a worthwhile country to live in.
I’m going back to bed. I have a high temperature and feel really quite unwell. All a tremendous bore.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
I was one of the few kids with the determination to run the whole of the 1500m, rather than stop and walk for a breather, so there's that, but I never considered myself one of the sporty kids.
It's possible that our PE teacher's timing was biased towards being encouraging, I guess - it was an Inner London Comprehensive! Now that Sandpit has given Kipchoge's exact pace I was a bit off it - the time I was given was 17.6s.
I think the fact your pace is apparently faster than a treadmill's top speed suggests either you were above average or there were timing issues. Either way its insanely impressive.
I wouldn't expect a treadmill to handle sprinting pace, necessarily. The faster you are on a treadmill the less safe it is, and I'd expect that to govern the top speed they allow.
Today's Sky poll conducted by YouGov gives 46% blaming the EU if talks fail v 31% who believe the EU has been fair, 23% did not know
Support for no deal is 41% out weighing remaining at 33% while 14% hope negotiations will find another solution
32% trust Boris with Corbyn on 16% with 76% who do not trust him. Only 36% of labour 2017 voters trust Corbyn on Brexit with former leavers particularly sceptical
Only 14% trust mps and peers with 77% do not
So summing up, walking away with no deal has much wider support, if this poll is correct, confounding so many who want to remain
16% trusting Corbyn is horrendous for labour and he is very much their problem
The only question I have is how do 14% trust mps and peers- it should be zero
Indeed, if a Brexit Deal is not agreed this week voters now prefer No Deal to further extension
More spin !
Voters do not prefer no deal , 33% want to ditch Brexit and Remain which means staying with our current deal and 14% want more negotiations. So 47% against 41% .
55% prefer No Deal or a Brexit Deal after more negotiations to just a third for Remain
You'll be up for a confirmatory referendum then
A referendum, if it is held, has to include no deal as confirmed by Dominic Grieve
I don't think it absolutley does Big_G, although personally I'd support that.
With 41% in todays poll supporting no deal it would be just wrong not to include the three options
I'd like to see the data behind today's poll, including the actual questions.
Anyone got a link to the data, I can't find it on Sky's site?
(But yes Big_G, I'd support No Deal being on the referendum as one of three options.)
Would be another unicorn option. No Deal doesn't exist as a thing. There are an infinite variety of so-called No Deal options (all of which will include deals of some sort).
FPT - I’ve only just caught up with Cyclefree’s superb thread. Truly excellent stuff and I agree entirely.
Bravo.
The astonishing thing about the whole scandal is that even someone as politically interested as @NickPalmer was honest enough to admit not being aware of the details of the Henriques report.
Something which ought to rock the police establishment has passed almost unnoticed.
I hardly knew about it at all to be honest.
And yet it was all over the front pages of the newspapers on two successive days, lead story on various news programmes etc.
If your reaction is at all representative - and I have no reason to believe it isn’t - little wonder governments and the police and others can get away with such appalling behaviour.
Right now there is almost no interest in good administration. It's one of the biggest problems in Britain right now. For things to change, first people have to care.
Well, if a story like that doesn’t make them care, it’s hard to know what will.
I despair. I really do.
Integrity, competence, excellence, plain common-sense, pragmatism: this is what we ought to value. By not doing so and elevating the meretricious, the superficial, the dishonest we are ruining much of what made Britain a worthwhile country to live in.
I’m going back to bed. I have a high temperature and feel really quite unwell. All a tremendous bore.
Her quip really wasn't helpful. Anyway hopefully it won't hurt her campaign too much. If she ends up being the nominee I'd vote for her, just, over Trump.
There are very few undecideds in the culture war, just those who are more or less motivated to vote. It's a boat race not a tug of war.
I doubt the quip will make the slightest difference to voter identification. It may persuade more on both sides to vote.
(It was a well-delivered, but hardly original, put-down.)
All that matters is she doesn't piss too many of the independents (especially in Rust Belt). Trump's foundational base is untouchable as they basically view him as The Dear Leader who can do no wrong. As he once said, I could shoot somebody in broad daylight in Times Square and I would still get elected.
Dems need independents and they need Obama/Biden/Clinton's African Americans to turn out (iirc about 10% didn't last time (compared to Obama) - fatal for Mrs Clinton).
What is your point? Does "winners" negate the force of "cheating racist"?
My point is that those that lost the referendum are still in the denial stage about the causes of the defeat.
I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
We're crystal clear why we lost. Too many of those 17.4m were and likely still are thick as mince.
The GFC was caused by people with Oxbridge degrees and Harvard MBAs. Blokes in white vans with plumbing diplomas might have managed the economy better..
Yes very true. They might have. Then again they might have driven it off a cliff at an earlier point in time.
Meanwhile there's a huge backlash in the USA about American companies and organisations kowtowing to China, from the NBA to Apple and Hollywood studios. South Park put it brilliantly, and found themselves immediately banned from China - thus proving their point in the most spectacular way imaginable.
Dominic Grieve just seemed to suggest on the BBC that if a second referendum resulted in Remain that Leavers would be entitled to then campaign to get a majority for us to leave without a third referendum.
Mr. Noo, no part of the UK is guaranteed that the party they vote for will form the government of the whole country. That's a bizarre view of democracy.
If Lowlands vote a certain way and don't get their chosen party in as the Holyrood Government should they aim to leave Scotland?
If we ever get a Yorkshire mayor and York doesn't back the winner, should it aim to leave?
If York has a mayor and a street in York doesn't back the mayor, should it aim to leave York?
If a house in that street doesn't back the leader of the street should it demand a new street name just for itself?
You misunderstand my point. I'm not talking about the fact that Scotland more often than not gets Conservative governments that it doesn't vote for -- though that is a good point so thank you for raising it. I'm talking about the fact that Conservatives continue to ply their trade north of Gretna despite being told at every election, decade after decade, to do one. And I'm standing up for that. I admire the Conservatives for sticking with it. Just as I admire the SNP and Greens for sticking with their independence agenda despite being told— well, 55% isn't quite "do one", it's more "ummm, actually no".
I find it compellingly strange that people think a party should drop its agenda or give up on its goals just because they lose election after election, let alone a single referendum. Let them be.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
I was one of the few kids with the determination to run the whole of the 1500m, rather than stop and walk for a breather, so there's that, but I never considered myself one of the sporty kids.
It's possible that our PE teacher's timing was biased towards being encouraging, I guess - it was an Inner London Comprehensive! Now that Sandpit has given Kipchoge's exact pace I was a bit off it - the time I was given was 17.6s.
I think the fact your pace is apparently faster than a treadmill's top speed suggests either you were above average or there were timing issues. Either way its insanely impressive.
I wouldn't expect a treadmill to handle sprinting pace, necessarily. The faster you are on a treadmill the less safe it is, and I'd expect that to govern the top speed they allow.
My home treadmill gets up to 14kph, which is just about fast enough for 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off HIIT. The one at work tops out at 20kph- which is too fast for my little legs.
What is your point? Does "winners" negate the force of "cheating racist"?
My point is that those that lost the referendum are still in the denial stage about the causes of the defeat.
I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
We're crystal clear why we lost. Too many of those 17.4m were and likely still are thick as mince.
The GFC was caused by people with Oxbridge degrees and Harvard MBAs. Blokes in white vans with plumbing diplomas might have managed the economy better..
They'd probably have some insight into how to improve VAT receipts...
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
I was one of the few kids with the determination to run the whole of the 1500m, rather than stop and walk for a breather, so there's that, but I never considered myself one of the sporty kids.
It's possible that our PE teacher's timing was biased towards being encouraging, I guess - it was an Inner London Comprehensive! Now that Sandpit has given Kipchoge's exact pace I was a bit off it - the time I was given was 17.6s.
I think the fact your pace is apparently faster than a treadmill's top speed suggests either you were above average or there were timing issues. Either way its insanely impressive.
The age graded score for a 100m time of 17.6s at 15 years old is only 59.2%
There are loads of age-graded times better than that at your local parkrun.
Mr. Noo, no part of the UK is guaranteed that the party they vote for will form the government of the whole country. That's a bizarre view of democracy.
If Lowlands vote a certain way and don't get their chosen party in as the Holyrood Government should they aim to leave Scotland?
If we ever get a Yorkshire mayor and York doesn't back the winner, should it aim to leave?
If York has a mayor and a street in York doesn't back the mayor, should it aim to leave York?
If a house in that street doesn't back the leader of the street should it demand a new street name just for itself?
You misunderstand my point. I'm not talking about the fact that Scotland more often than not gets Conservative governments that it doesn't vote for -- though that is a good point so thank you for raising it. I'm talking about the fact that Conservatives continue to ply their trade north of Gretna despite being told at every election, decade after decade, to do one. And I'm standing up for that. I admire the Conservatives for sticking with it. Just as I admire the SNP and Greens for sticking with their independence agenda despite being told— well, 55% isn't quite "do one", it's more "ummm, actually no".
I find it compellingly strange that people think a party should drop its agenda or give up on its goals just because they lose election after election, let alone a single referendum. Let them be.
And, one might add, don't confuse a soundbite with a settled constitutional principle.
Dominic Grieve just seemed to suggest on the BBC that if a second referendum resulted in Remain that Leavers would be entitled to then campaign to get a majority for us to leave without a third referendum.
It may be me, but I think he got a bit garbled in that interview. He seemed to be arguing that abstract questions were bad idea in referendums and HoC was better route. But it was confused imho.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Given the Leave vote was mainly a vote to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration based on the polling I would suggest it was more a vote for 'Britain First' than one to become a new low tax, low spend, low regulation Singapore and to do our own trade deals as global free trading Britain even if some Leave voters backed that
I believe you have been a Tory candidate in the past and have aspirations to be in the future
“Britain First” is the name and slogan of an offshoot of the BNP
I would be wary of associating yourself with their agenda
(It’s up to you, and I’m not planning to debate this, but it’s just a friendly word of warning)
I maybe wrong, but it doesn't appear that HYUFD has any boundaries on how far right he's willing to align. He's a Trump apologist, and white supremacy and racist persecution is definitely on the table for Trump, so perhaps the "Britain First" allusion is deliberate.
I know a number of black and Asian voters who voted Leave to reduce European immigration to the UK
Oh, a black person voted Leave, therefore Trump isn't a white supremacist? Go back to bed.
Mr. Sandpit, mildly surprised you didn't mention Blizzard, although maybe that's only big in gaming circles.
There's been a huge backlash to Blizzard banning for a year (since reduced to six months due to the response) a Hong Kong player who called, during an official gaming livestream, for freedom for Hong Kong.
It remains to be seen if this'll affect Blizzcon, which is in a few weeks.
Mr. Noo, when a party promises to abide by a result for a generation then immediately seeks another referendum because they didn't get the result they wanted it makes a mockery of their promise.
Dominic Grieve just seemed to suggest on the BBC that if a second referendum resulted in Remain that Leavers would be entitled to then campaign to get a majority for us to leave without a third referendum.
Constitutionally, it's hard to see how that view is wrong.
Mr. Divvie, everybody knows what they want. They voted and the results were made publicly known.
The problem isn't that the SNP don't know, it's that they think the opinion of Scots matters less than their own political ideology.
Funny, the UK voted on EU membership and the results were made publicly known, yet here we are over 3 years later no closer to clarity, with many people acknowledging reluctantly that there may have to be a 2nd referendum of some description.
I think Brexit is a disaster but if your country, England, wants to pursue it that should be up to them, you think Brexit should be imposed on my country against its will. I'll do all I can to prevent the dead hand of your view of democracy suffocating mine.
Her quip really wasn't helpful. Anyway hopefully it won't hurt her campaign too much. If she ends up being the nominee I'd vote for her, just, over Trump.
Has “People’s Vote” been officially dropped for “Confirmatory Referendum”?
Can’t we just call a spade a spade and call it the Losers Revote?
The basic problem Leavers have is that the more the public have seen of their plans, the less they like them. They have abjectly failed to create a consensus.
Their lack of introspection about this failure is the most enduring mystery of Brexit for me.
Contrast with the response of SNP, Green and other Yes campaigners who have never stopped trying to convert wavering No-ers to the Yes side since 2014. Change can only be achieved by converting previous opponents to your arguments. It is a basic, enduring truth of public life. Leavers totally fail to understand that. They think they will win by bullying, intimidation and bending the law. They won’t. The entire edifice is built on very shoddy foundations. It takes decades to build the solid base on which to advance. Leavers have been lazy, negligent and arrogant. There is no consensus to leave, and there never will be until the Leave side is lead by pleasant, trustworthy and persuasive people.
But there no pleasant, trustworthy or pleasant people in the SNP.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
I was one of the few kids with the determination to run the whole of the 1500m, rather than stop and walk for a breather, so there's that, but I never considered myself one of the sporty kids.
It's possible that our PE teacher's timing was biased towards being encouraging, I guess - it was an Inner London Comprehensive! Now that Sandpit has given Kipchoge's exact pace I was a bit off it - the time I was given was 17.6s.
I think the fact your pace is apparently faster than a treadmill's top speed suggests either you were above average or there were timing issues. Either way its insanely impressive.
The age graded score for a 100m time of 17.6s at 15 years old is only 59.2%
There are loads of age-graded times better than that at your local parkrun.
Isn't age-grading a percentage of the world record time? Not exactly what "most people can run" which was the original comment, is it?
Mr. Divvie, you oppose leaving the EU because the dastardly English voted for it (and the Welsh, incidentally), but your own policy in 2014 was for Scotland to leave the UK and the EU at once.
Why was leaving the EU right for Scotland in 2014 and wrong now?
Has “People’s Vote” been officially dropped for “Confirmatory Referendum”?
Can’t we just call a spade a spade and call it the Losers Revote?
The basic problem Leavers have is that the more the public have seen of their plans, the less they like them. They have abjectly failed to create a consensus.
Their lack of introspection about this failure is the most enduring mystery of Brexit for me.
Contrast with the response of SNP, Green and other Yes campaigners who have never stopped trying to convert wavering No-ers to the Yes side since 2014. Change can only be achieved by converting previous opponents to your arguments. It is a basic, enduring truth of public life. Leavers totally fail to understand that. They think they will win by bullying, intimidation and bending the law. They won’t. The entire edifice is built on very shoddy foundations. It takes decades to build the solid base on which to advance. Leavers have been lazy, negligent and arrogant. There is no consensus to leave, and there never will be until the Leave side is lead by pleasant, trustworthy and persuasive people.
Leave won the EU referendum, they do not need to convert voters, just have their victory respected by diehard Remainers.
Yes lost the Scottish independence referendum and so do need to convert voters to reverse their defeat
Yes lost a once in a lifetime referendum and need to accept the democratic result of the Scottish people.
Her quip really wasn't helpful. Anyway hopefully it won't hurt her campaign too much. If she ends up being the nominee I'd vote for her, just, over Trump.
Mr. Sandpit, mildly surprised you didn't mention Blizzard, although maybe that's only big in gaming circles.
There's been a huge backlash to Blizzard banning for a year (since reduced to six months due to the response) a Hong Kong player who called, during an official gaming livestream, for freedom for Hong Kong.
It remains to be seen if this'll affect Blizzcon, which is in a few weeks.
Mr. Noo, when a party promises to abide by a result for a generation then immediately seeks another referendum because they didn't get the result they wanted it makes a mockery of their promise.
As I pointed out, that might be a reason to criticise the SNP, but it is a very long way indeed from being any kind of constitutional principle.
And if they again win a large majority, campaigning for a second referendum, it will be despite that inconsistency being pointed out by helpful souls.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
I was one of the few kids with the determination to run the whole of the 1500m, rather than stop and walk for a breather, so there's that, but I never considered myself one of the sporty kids.
It's possible that our PE teacher's timing was biased towards being encouraging, I guess - it was an Inner London Comprehensive! Now that Sandpit has given Kipchoge's exact pace I was a bit off it - the time I was given was 17.6s.
I think the fact your pace is apparently faster than a treadmill's top speed suggests either you were above average or there were timing issues. Either way its insanely impressive.
I wouldn't expect a treadmill to handle sprinting pace, necessarily. The faster you are on a treadmill the less safe it is, and I'd expect that to govern the top speed they allow.
My home treadmill gets up to 14kph, which is just about fast enough for 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off HIIT. The one at work tops out at 20kph- which is too fast for my little legs.
Wow no wonder you firepeople are so on top of it. Have never seen a treadmill go beyond 15 kph.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
I was one of the few kids with the determination to run the whole of the 1500m, rather than stop and walk for a breather, so there's that, but I never considered myself one of the sporty kids.
It's possible that our PE teacher's timing was biased towards being encouraging, I guess - it was an Inner London Comprehensive! Now that Sandpit has given Kipchoge's exact pace I was a bit off it - the time I was given was 17.6s.
I think the fact your pace is apparently faster than a treadmill's top speed suggests either you were above average or there were timing issues. Either way its insanely impressive.
The age graded score for a 100m time of 17.6s at 15 years old is only 59.2%
There are loads of age-graded times better than that at your local parkrun.
Isn't age-grading a percentage of the world record time? Not exactly what "most people can run" which was the original comment, is it?
If you look at the age-graded scores at parkrun, though, then there's a substantial minority above 60%.
Much as I enjoy to run I don't think I qualify as "insanely impressive".
Mr. Divvie, everybody knows what they want. They voted and the results were made publicly known.
The problem isn't that the SNP don't know, it's that they think the opinion of Scots matters less than their own political ideology.
Funny, the UK voted on EU membership and the results were made publicly known, yet here we are over 3 years later no closer to clarity, with many people acknowledging reluctantly that there may have to be a 2nd referendum of some description.
I think Brexit is a disaster but if your country, England, wants to pursue it that should be up to them, you think Brexit should be imposed on my country against its will. I'll do all I can to prevent the dead hand of your view of democracy suffocating mine.
Actually your country is the United Kingdom.
In 2014 there was a referendum specifically on the question of "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the answer came back "No". Had you collectively bothered to vote Yes then England would be another country, but instead its another part of your country.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Given the Leave vote was mainly a vote to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration based on the polling I would suggest it was more a vote for 'Britain First' than one to become a new low tax, low spend, low regulation Singapore and to do our own trade deals as global free trading Britain even if some Leave voters backed that
I believe you have been a Tory candidate in the past and have aspirations to be in the future
“Britain First” is the name and slogan of an offshoot of the BNP
I would be wary of associating yourself with their agenda
(It’s up to you, and I’m not planning to debate this, but it’s just a friendly word of warning)
I maybe wrong, but it doesn't appear that HYUFD has any boundaries on how far right he's willing to align. He's a Trump apologist, and white supremacy and racist persecution is definitely on the table for Trump, so perhaps the "Britain First" allusion is deliberate.
I know a number of black and Asian voters who voted Leave to reduce European immigration to the UK
Oh, a black person voted Leave, therefore Trump isn't a white supremacist? Go back to bed.
You dont own the BAME vote im afraid.
No, umm, you're quite right. I'm not sure what you're responding to though. I was saying that Trump is minded towards racism and white supremacy. If you think that means I am saying "I own the BAME vote", then your reading comprehension needs some remedial work.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
I was one of the few kids with the determination to run the whole of the 1500m, rather than stop and walk for a breather, so there's that, but I never considered myself one of the sporty kids.
It's possible that our PE teacher's timing was biased towards being encouraging, I guess - it was an Inner London Comprehensive! Now that Sandpit has given Kipchoge's exact pace I was a bit off it - the time I was given was 17.6s.
I think the fact your pace is apparently faster than a treadmill's top speed suggests either you were above average or there were timing issues. Either way its insanely impressive.
I wouldn't expect a treadmill to handle sprinting pace, necessarily. The faster you are on a treadmill the less safe it is, and I'd expect that to govern the top speed they allow.
My home treadmill gets up to 14kph, which is just about fast enough for 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off HIIT. The one at work tops out at 20kph- which is too fast for my little legs.
Wow no wonder you firepeople are so on top of it. Have never seen a treadmill go beyond 15 kph.
Ar 20kph, There'd be a me shaped hole in the wall behind it.
Dominic Grieve just seemed to suggest on the BBC that if a second referendum resulted in Remain that Leavers would be entitled to then campaign to get a majority for us to leave without a third referendum.
Constitutionally, it's hard to see how that view is wrong.
If by some chance we do leave I think it would be a very brave party, apart from TBP, to campaign to start this up all over again with a no deal brexit given the other issues facing the country and the world. The problem is neither the Torys or Labour have sane parties or members so who knows what will happen.
What is your point? Does "winners" negate the force of "cheating racist"?
My point is that those that lost the referendum are still in the denial stage about the causes of the defeat.
I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
We're crystal clear why we lost. Too many of those 17.4m were and likely still are thick as mince.
Well as long as you cling to that view you won’t enjoy the future.
Unfortunately it is true for many of them
True Malcolm. Now...what other people, on here for example, seem to be in a near-constant rage against, well, against everything? The F1 fans? The Die Hard fans? No. There is another sub-group that appears perpetually angry.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
I was one of the few kids with the determination to run the whole of the 1500m, rather than stop and walk for a breather, so there's that, but I never considered myself one of the sporty kids.
It's possible that our PE teacher's timing was biased towards being encouraging, I guess - it was an Inner London Comprehensive! Now that Sandpit has given Kipchoge's exact pace I was a bit off it - the time I was given was 17.6s.
I think the fact your pace is apparently faster than a treadmill's top speed suggests either you were above average or there were timing issues. Either way its insanely impressive.
I wouldn't expect a treadmill to handle sprinting pace, necessarily. The faster you are on a treadmill the less safe it is, and I'd expect that to govern the top speed they allow.
My home treadmill gets up to 14kph, which is just about fast enough for 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off HIIT. The one at work tops out at 20kph- which is too fast for my little legs.
Wow no wonder you firepeople are so on top of it. Have never seen a treadmill go beyond 15 kph.
Ar 20kph, There'd be a me shaped hole in the wall behind it.
Dominic Grieve just seemed to suggest on the BBC that if a second referendum resulted in Remain that Leavers would be entitled to then campaign to get a majority for us to leave without a third referendum.
Constitutionally, it's hard to see how that view is wrong.
If by some chance we do leave I think it would be a very brave party, apart from TBP, to campaign to start this up all over again with a no deal brexit given the other issues facing the country and the world. The problem is neither the Torys or Labour have sane parties or members so who knows what will happen.
Didn't you mean "if we don't leave" ?
Otherwise, I agree with you, it would be politically ridiculous. But constitutionally, Grieve is correct I think.
Isn't age-grading a percentage of the world record time? Not exactly what "most people can run" which was the original comment, is it?
If you look at the age-graded scores at parkrun, though, then there's a substantial minority above 60%.
Much as I enjoy to run I don't think I qualify as "insanely impressive".
Is that a score on 100m times or a score on 5k or 10k etc which are measuring different things?
A minority is not "most people" by definition and the people who are engaging in parkruns will presumably be better than average already so you're talking a minority of a minority.
Mr. Divvie, you oppose leaving the EU because the dastardly English voted for it (and the Welsh, incidentally), but your own policy in 2014 was for Scotland to leave the UK and the EU at once.
Why was leaving the EU right for Scotland in 2014 and wrong now?
It's a bit wearying arguing these matters with folk who actually have bugger all to do with a once and future Scotland, but since you're so keen on what the SNP said in 2014, where did they state that their policy in 2014 was for Scotland to leave the EU? If you're going to come back with some 'they didn't say that BUT THAT'S WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED' mince, please don't expend the effort.
Mr. Divvie, everybody knows what they want. They voted and the results were made publicly known.
The problem isn't that the SNP don't know, it's that they think the opinion of Scots matters less than their own political ideology.
Funny, the UK voted on EU membership and the results were made publicly known, yet here we are over 3 years later no closer to clarity, with many people acknowledging reluctantly that there may have to be a 2nd referendum of some description.
I think Brexit is a disaster but if your country, England, wants to pursue it that should be up to them, you think Brexit should be imposed on my country against its will. I'll do all I can to prevent the dead hand of your view of democracy suffocating mine.
Actually your country is the United Kingdom.
In 2014 there was a referendum specifically on the question of "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the answer came back "No". Had you collectively bothered to vote Yes then England would be another country, but instead its another part of your country.
Still waiting for those oppressive Hispano-Hungarian laws imposed on the trusting British public.
Mr. Divvie, you oppose leaving the EU because the dastardly English voted for it (and the Welsh, incidentally), but your own policy in 2014 was for Scotland to leave the UK and the EU at once.
Why was leaving the EU right for Scotland in 2014 and wrong now?
It's a bit wearying arguing these matters with folk who actually have bugger all to do with a once and future Scotland, but since you're so keen on what the SNP said in 2014, where did they state that their policy in 2014 was for Scotland to leave the EU? If you're going to come back with some 'they didn't say that BUT THAT'S WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED' mince, please don't expend the effort.
The EU said it would be the consequence of voting Yes, and the SNP said to vote Yes anyway, so yes QED they did say it.
Mr. Divvie, everybody knows what they want. They voted and the results were made publicly known.
The problem isn't that the SNP don't know, it's that they think the opinion of Scots matters less than their own political ideology.
Funny, the UK voted on EU membership and the results were made publicly known, yet here we are over 3 years later no closer to clarity, with many people acknowledging reluctantly that there may have to be a 2nd referendum of some description.
I think Brexit is a disaster but if your country, England, wants to pursue it that should be up to them, you think Brexit should be imposed on my country against its will. I'll do all I can to prevent the dead hand of your view of democracy suffocating mine.
Actually your country is the United Kingdom.
In 2014 there was a referendum specifically on the question of "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the answer came back "No". Had you collectively bothered to vote Yes then England would be another country, but instead its another part of your country.
Still waiting for those oppressive Hispano-Hungarian laws imposed on the trusting British public.
What is your point? Does "winners" negate the force of "cheating racist"?
My point is that those that lost the referendum are still in the denial stage about the causes of the defeat.
I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
We're crystal clear why we lost. Too many of those 17.4m were and likely still are thick as mince.
Well as long as you cling to that view you won’t enjoy the future.
Unfortunately it is true for many of them
True Malcolm. Now...what other people, on here for example, seem to be in a near-constant rage against, well, against everything? The F1 fans? The Die Hard fans? No. There is another sub-group that appears perpetually angry.
Mr. Divvie, everybody knows what they want. They voted and the results were made publicly known.
The problem isn't that the SNP don't know, it's that they think the opinion of Scots matters less than their own political ideology.
Funny, the UK voted on EU membership and the results were made publicly known, yet here we are over 3 years later no closer to clarity, with many people acknowledging reluctantly that there may have to be a 2nd referendum of some description.
I think Brexit is a disaster but if your country, England, wants to pursue it that should be up to them, you think Brexit should be imposed on my country against its will. I'll do all I can to prevent the dead hand of your view of democracy suffocating mine.
Actually your country is the United Kingdom.
In 2014 there was a referendum specifically on the question of "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the answer came back "No". Had you collectively bothered to vote Yes then England would be another country, but instead its another part of your country.
Still waiting for those oppressive Hispano-Hungarian laws imposed on the trusting British public.
Don't think you mean "Hispano"
I think I did.
Hispano- /hɪˈspanəʊ/
prefix: Hispano-
Spanish; Spanish and … "Hispano-Argentine" relating to Spain.
FPT - I’ve only just caught up with Cyclefree’s superb thread. Truly excellent stuff and I agree entirely.
Bravo.
The astonishing thing about the whole scandal is that even someone as politically interested as @NickPalmer was honest enough to admit not being aware of the details of the Henriques report.
Something which ought to rock the police establishment has passed almost unnoticed.
I hardly knew about it at all to be honest.
And yet it was all over the front pages of the newspapers on two successive days, lead story on various news programmes etc.
If your reaction is at all representative - and I have no reason to believe it isn’t - little wonder governments and the police and others can get away with such appalling behaviour.
I’d like to think I both care and would notice given how closely I pay attention to the news.
However, I’m ashamed to say on this occasion it passed me by.
What is your point? Does "winners" negate the force of "cheating racist"?
My point is that those that lost the referendum are still in the denial stage about the causes of the defeat.
I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
We're crystal clear why we lost. Too many of those 17.4m were and likely still are thick as mince.
Well as long as you cling to that view you won’t enjoy the future.
Unfortunately it is true for many of them
True Malcolm. Now...what other people, on here for example, seem to be in a near-constant rage against, well, against everything? The F1 fans? The Die Hard fans? No. There is another sub-group that appears perpetually angry.
Mr. Divvie, everybody knows what they want. They voted and the results were made publicly known.
The problem isn't that the SNP don't know, it's that they think the opinion of Scots matters less than their own political ideology.
Funny, the UK voted on EU membership and the results were made publicly known, yet here we are over 3 years later no closer to clarity, with many people acknowledging reluctantly that there may have to be a 2nd referendum of some description.
I think Brexit is a disaster but if your country, England, wants to pursue it that should be up to them, you think Brexit should be imposed on my country against its will. I'll do all I can to prevent the dead hand of your view of democracy suffocating mine.
Actually your country is the United Kingdom.
In 2014 there was a referendum specifically on the question of "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the answer came back "No". Had you collectively bothered to vote Yes then England would be another country, but instead its another part of your country.
Still waiting for those oppressive Hispano-Hungarian laws imposed on the trusting British public.
Don't think you mean "Hispano"
I think I did.
Hispano- /hɪˈspanəʊ/
prefix: Hispano-
Spanish; Spanish and … "Hispano-Argentine" relating to Spain.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Nobody seem so be mentioning that the 2 hour marathon was as contrived as Bannister's 4 minute mile in 1954
You must be fun at parties.
Could you outline the ways in which the kipchoge marathon was "contrived" in a way, that, say, the moon landings were not?
The reason it wasn't an "official" record is that the pacemaker runners didn't all start at the same time and attempt to run the full distance, rather they ran a relay race around Kipchoge, at a set distance behind a pace car running at a specific speed. An official record needs everyone competing to start together and no use of pace vehicles or other such outside interference.
For those interested, video I posted upthread has a bunch of people trying to run 13mph on a treadmill - it's sprinting speed for most people, and your average home treadmill doesn't go that fast (probably because it's bloody dangerous!).
Has “People’s Vote” been officially dropped for “Confirmatory Referendum”?
Can’t we just call a spade a spade and call it the Losers Revote?
The basic problem Leavers have is that the more the public have seen of their plans, the less they like them. They have abjectly failed to create a consensus.
Their lack of introspection about this failure is the most enduring mystery of Brexit for me.
Contrast with the response of SNP, Green and other Yes campaigners who have never stopped trying to convert wavering No-ers to the Yes side since 2014. Change can only be achieved by converting previous opponents to your arguments. It is a basic, enduring truth of public life. Leavers totally fail to understand that. They think they will win by bullying, intimidation and bending the law. They won’t. The entire edifice is built on very shoddy foundations. It takes decades to build the solid base on which to advance. Leavers have been lazy, negligent and arrogant. There is no consensus to leave, and there never will be until the Leave side is lead by pleasant, trustworthy and persuasive people.
I hear Nicola is ready to put a hard border from Carlisle to Berwick if necessary affecting 60% of Scots exports.
Do you really think that even Scots will support such a barrier to trade and free movement within the UK. Is my Scottish wife going to have to provide her passport at the border when she visits family in the North of Scotland
In terms of value, Scotland exports more physical goods to the EU than to the rest of the UK. The only exception, AFAIK, is wood and wood products, and I don't believe a sheet of plywood or floor joist needs a phytosanitary certificate or a veterinary inspection, or has a limited shelf life compromised by customs delays.
If you are instead suggesting that there will be significant barriers to trade in services, especially financial services, between Scotland/EU/rest of the world and the UK after Brexit, maybe you should tell the City of London...
Mr. Sandpit, mildly surprised you didn't mention Blizzard, although maybe that's only big in gaming circles.
There's been a huge backlash to Blizzard banning for a year (since reduced to six months due to the response) a Hong Kong player who called, during an official gaming livestream, for freedom for Hong Kong.
It remains to be seen if this'll affect Blizzcon, which is in a few weeks.
I couldn't remember which gaming company it was, but yes Blizzard are also in the crap from both sides.
Their next con is probably going to involve a load of American participants making a point of saying something political about Hong Kong. Good luck with that.
Dominic Grieve just seemed to suggest on the BBC that if a second referendum resulted in Remain that Leavers would be entitled to then campaign to get a majority for us to leave without a third referendum.
Constitutionally, it's hard to see how that view is wrong.
If by some chance we do leave I think it would be a very brave party, apart from TBP, to campaign to start this up all over again with a no deal brexit given the other issues facing the country and the world. The problem is neither the Torys or Labour have sane parties or members so who knows what will happen.
Didn't you mean "if we don't leave" ?
Otherwise, I agree with you, it would be politically ridiculous. But constitutionally, Grieve is correct I think.
Has “People’s Vote” been officially dropped for “Confirmatory Referendum”?
Can’t we just call a spade a spade and call it the Losers Revote?
The basic problem Leavers have is that the more the public have seen of their plans, the less they like them. They have abjectly failed to create a consensus.
Their lack of introspection about this failure is the most enduring mystery of Brexit for me.
Contrast with the response of SNP, Green and other Yes campaigners who have never stopped trying to convert wavering No-ers to the Yes side since 2014. Change can only be achieved by converting previous opponents to your arguments. It is a basic, enduring truth of public life. Leavers totally fail to understand that. They think they will win by bullying, intimidation and bending the law. They won’t. The entire edifice is built on very shoddy foundations. It takes decades to build the solid base on which to advance. Leavers have been lazy, negligent and arrogant. There is no consensus to leave, and there never will be until the Leave side is lead by pleasant, trustworthy and persuasive people.
I hear Nicola is ready to put a hard border from Carlisle to Berwick if necessary affecting 60% of Scots exports.
Do you really think that even Scots will support such a barrier to trade and free movement within the UK. Is my Scottish wife going to have to provide her passport at the border when she visits family in the North of Scotland
In terms of value, Scotland exports more physical goods to the EU than to the rest of the UK. The only exception, AFAIK, is wood and wood products, and I don't believe a sheet of plywood or floor joist needs a phytosanitary certificate or a veterinary inspection, or has a limited shelf life compromised by customs delays.
If you are instead suggesting that there will be significant barriers to trade in services, especially financial services, between Scotland/EU/rest of the world and the UK after Brexit, maybe you should tell the City of London...
The thought of a hard border is as silly as the one in Ireland and would be as difficult an issue for those dealing with it
I'm not a fan of questions like this, because it lumps together people with very different takes. Some will be blaming, others thanking.
I think the best answer was, unintentionally, the first one: British Adults. Unfortunately 52% in 2016 behaved like children, as they believed in a myth called Brexit. There are some that still believe in said myth. Not all of them also believe in fairies, Father Christmas and a flat earth, but many do.
What is your point? Does "winners" negate the force of "cheating racist"?
My point is that those that lost the referendum are still in the denial stage about the causes of the defeat.
I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
We're crystal clear why we lost. Too many of those 17.4m were and likely still are thick as mince.
The GFC was caused by people with Oxbridge degrees and Harvard MBAs. Blokes in white vans with plumbing diplomas might have managed the economy better..
Yebbut they often make a hell of a dog's breakfast of the plumbing.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
Evidence please
This is a statement that can be falsified more easily than it can be verified, so evidence to the contrary please. E.g. any prominent or well known far right, xenophobic, British nationalist or racist person who has advocated for continued UK EU membership? I genuinely don't know of any but if you do - you do seem to know a lot of interesting people - I'd be glad to hear about it.
You made the accusation
But I suspect that some anti-Semites on the left voted to remain
Of course you are right @Charles that among 16m+ Remain voters there will be some racists. Added to which, I am pretty sure that most of the Leave voters (and certanily those posting on here) are not racist.
Although of course at some level we are all racist - we all have unconsious biases. Taking a test like these can give surpising results...
What happens if a deal in principle is brought back to the Commons for a vote but not the full deal with legal text .
What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.
And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .
Well theyll either agree it in principle and bypass Benn as part of that or vote it down and force Benn. If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them
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And it's perfectly compatible with democracy and the rule of law to invalidate such an unapproved referendum.
To imprison your political opponents for a decade or more is not.
The will of the Scottish people in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and 2010s was not to have a Conservative government. Yet the Conservative & Unionist party kept standing up for what they believe in, standing in every Scottish constituency.
The Scottish people are not conservative, but the Conservatives have every right to stand for their vision. The Scottish people didn't want independence, but the SNP and Greens have every right to stand for their vision.
Not that that doesn't happen in other elections, but leaving the European Union is fiendishly complicated and nobody really knew much about it in 2016. Some people have become better informed since.
Blokes in white vans with plumbing diplomas might have managed the economy better..
...My old friend the Kurdish journalist Hazhir Teimourian used to tell me sorrowfully: “There is an old proverb – a Kurd has no friends.” I am not sure that is true any more. In the aftermath of the first Gulf war in 1991 the Kurds were driven into the mountains by the vengeful troops of Saddam. The people of Britain were appalled by their misery. John Major was so moved that he set up the no-fly zones that were the precursor to the modern state.
In the last few years the links between Britain and Kurdistan have been developing fast, with the first ministerial delegation from London arriving there two years ago. Standard Chartered Bank has established there, as well as many other firms. They are going not simply because Kurdistan has theoretically the sixth largest oil deposits in the world, but because the place is an oasis of stability and tolerance. They have a democratic system; they are pushing forward with women’s rights; they insist on complete mutual respect of all religions.
It would be an utter tragedy if we did not do everything in our power to give succour and relief to those who are now facing massacre and persecution, and to help repel the maniacs from one of the few bright spots in the Middle East.
Yes, we have got it wrong before; and yes, we cannot do everything. But that doesn’t mean we should collapse into passivity and quietism in the face of manifest evil. These people need our help.
This is now.
His 'old friend' had Johnson's number a couple of years back:
https://twitter.com/HTeimourian/status/921409972608651264
If Lowlands vote a certain way and don't get their chosen party in as the Holyrood Government should they aim to leave Scotland?
If we ever get a Yorkshire mayor and York doesn't back the winner, should it aim to leave?
If York has a mayor and a street in York doesn't back the mayor, should it aim to leave York?
If a house in that street doesn't back the leader of the street should it demand a new street name just for itself?
I despair. I really do.
Integrity, competence, excellence, plain common-sense, pragmatism: this is what we ought to value. By not doing so and elevating the meretricious, the superficial, the dishonest we are ruining much of what made Britain a worthwhile country to live in.
I’m going back to bed. I have a high temperature and feel really quite unwell. All a tremendous bore.
https://www.orionbooks.co.uk/titles/tbc/chaos-with-ed-miliband/9781409195962/
Dems need independents and they need Obama/Biden/Clinton's African Americans to turn out (iirc about 10% didn't last time (compared to Obama) - fatal for Mrs Clinton).
The problem isn't that the SNP don't know, it's that they think the opinion of Scots matters less than their own political ideology.
Miss Cyclefree, get well soon.
https://twitter.com/ComRes/status/1183676047742717952
Could you outline the ways in which the kipchoge marathon was "contrived" in a way, that, say, the moon landings were not?
I'm talking about the fact that Conservatives continue to ply their trade north of Gretna despite being told at every election, decade after decade, to do one.
And I'm standing up for that. I admire the Conservatives for sticking with it. Just as I admire the SNP and Greens for sticking with their independence agenda despite being told— well, 55% isn't quite "do one", it's more "ummm, actually no".
I find it compellingly strange that people think a party should drop its agenda or give up on its goals just because they lose election after election, let alone a single referendum. Let them be.
There are loads of age-graded times better than that at your local parkrun.
There's been a huge backlash to Blizzard banning for a year (since reduced to six months due to the response) a Hong Kong player who called, during an official gaming livestream, for freedom for Hong Kong.
It remains to be seen if this'll affect Blizzcon, which is in a few weeks.
Mr. Noo, when a party promises to abide by a result for a generation then immediately seeks another referendum because they didn't get the result they wanted it makes a mockery of their promise.
I think Brexit is a disaster but if your country, England, wants to pursue it that should be up to them, you think Brexit should be imposed on my country against its will. I'll do all I can to prevent the dead hand of your view of democracy suffocating mine.
Why was leaving the EU right for Scotland in 2014 and wrong now?
Still hoping for President Biden
And if they again win a large majority, campaigning for a second referendum, it will be despite that inconsistency being pointed out by helpful souls.
Edit fwiw: and I have seen a *lot* of treadmills.
Much as I enjoy to run I don't think I qualify as "insanely impressive".
In 2014 there was a referendum specifically on the question of "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the answer came back "No". Had you collectively bothered to vote Yes then England would be another country, but instead its another part of your country.
Otherwise, I agree with you, it would be politically ridiculous. But constitutionally, Grieve is correct I think.
A minority is not "most people" by definition and the people who are engaging in parkruns will presumably be better than average already so you're talking a minority of a minority.
Hispano-
/hɪˈspanəʊ/
prefix: Hispano-
Spanish; Spanish and …
"Hispano-Argentine"
relating to Spain.
However, I’m ashamed to say on this occasion it passed me by.
Carry on
For those interested, video I posted upthread has a bunch of people trying to run 13mph on a treadmill - it's sprinting speed for most people, and your average home treadmill doesn't go that fast (probably because it's bloody dangerous!).
If you are instead suggesting that there will be significant barriers to trade in services, especially financial services, between Scotland/EU/rest of the world and the UK after Brexit, maybe you should tell the City of London...
Their next con is probably going to involve a load of American participants making a point of saying something political about Hong Kong. Good luck with that.
https://twitter.com/sweden/status/896054161879351296
Half expected to see Gina Millar in the carriage!
That is a giant leap for mankind too far
What happens to the Benn Act if a deal in principle is passed but not the full deal.
And why would MPs agree to something which isn’t a full deal. Johnson is clearly by his recent actions not to be trusted .
Banana and Bacon pizza is the greatest - don't knock it until you've tried it.
If they want to sell 'we are against no deal so we are blocking a deal' to the voters then so be it, and good luck to them
It's almost like when Parliament/Government/Police wants ER out of the way they can get them out of the way?
Still not keen. What sort of curry is it? Or just curry sauce, as on a bratwurst?