Daveyboy and Walterwhite - welcome to the forum, but please go easy on the trolling (in your different directions) - we're a mostly mild-mannered bunch and it just alienates us. The Sky poll is not of Sky viewers, Davey, but via YouGov, which is a respectable institution even though their results tend to show lower Labour/Remain results apparently for methodological reasons depending on how you handle people who remember voting differently to how they said at the time.
I don’t think we are actually disagreeing that much
You say members of a community should get to vote. I believe that members of a demos should get to vote.
A demos is - I believe - different to “people who happen to live in an area”
To be a member of a demos you have to be qualified as such. Those criteria change over time, but fundamentally if you are not qualified from birth you must make a conscious choice to join.
I suspect you view “Europeans” or “humans” as a single demos, while I limit it based on national units)
Re your point on commonwealth voting - fundamentally it’s a hang over from the principle of Civitas Romanus Sum - I am a Roman Citizen. Due to a strange intellectual psychodrama the Brits regarded themselves as the inheritors of the Roman Empire. If you were a Citizen of the Empire you had the right to vote in U.K. elections and when the Empire was dissolved it was decided to retain that principle. On Ireland it was explained on the last thread: it is nothing to do with the GFA but rather a legacy of our long and complex history)
Has “People’s Vote” been officially dropped for “Confirmatory Referendum”?
Can’t we just call a spade a spade and call it the Losers Revote?
The basic problem Leavers have is that the more the public have seen of their plans, the less they like them. They have abjectly failed to create a consensus.
Their lack of introspection about this failure is the most enduring mystery of Brexit for me.
Contrast with the response of SNP, Green and other Yes campaigners who have never stopped trying to convert wavering No-ers to the Yes side since 2014. Change can only be achieved by converting previous opponents to your arguments. It is a basic, enduring truth of public life. Leavers totally fail to understand that. They think they will win by bullying, intimidation and bending the law. They won’t. The entire edifice is built on very shoddy foundations. It takes decades to build the solid base on which to advance. Leavers have been lazy, negligent and arrogant. There is no consensus to leave, and there never will be until the Leave side is lead by pleasant, trustworthy and persuasive people.
I agree with that. Of course, it helps Yessers that they lost, but in fairness Scottish unionists have also remained alive to their challenge.
Leavers seem to think that they can ride roughshod over everyone without debate. You can see it on this thread, where the very idea that the public might get to change its mind is treated with horror.
Given diehard Remainers have refused to respect the victorious Leave vote from day 1 and have refused to accept any Brexit other than one that stays in the Single Market and Customs Union which is basically Remain anyway it is hardly surprising Leavers are paranoid
Today's Sky poll conducted by YouGov gives 46% blaming the EU if talks fail v 31% who believe the EU has been fair, 23% did not know
Support for no deal is 41% out weighing remaining at 33% while 14% hope negotiations will find another solution
32% trust Boris with Corbyn on 16% with 76% who do not trust him. Only 36% of labour 2017 voters trust Corbyn on Brexit with former leavers particularly sceptical
Only 14% trust mps and peers with 77% do not
So summing up, walking away with no deal has much wider support, if this poll is correct, confounding so many who want to remain
16% trusting Corbyn is horrendous for labour and he is very much their problem
The only question I have is how do 14% trust mps and peers- it should be zero
Indeed, if a Brexit Deal is not agreed this week voters now prefer No Deal to further extension
More spin !
Voters do not prefer no deal , 33% want to ditch Brexit and Remain which means staying with our current deal and 14% want more negotiations. So 47% against 41% .
55% prefer No Deal or a Brexit Deal after more negotiations to just a third for Remain
No a straight up leave no deal v revoke and remain which is probably where this is going
Has “People’s Vote” been officially dropped for “Confirmatory Referendum”?
Can’t we just call a spade a spade and call it the Losers Revote?
The basic problem Leavers have is that the more the public have seen of their plans, the less they like them. They have abjectly failed to create a consensus.
Their lack of introspection about this failure is the most enduring mystery of Brexit for me.
Contrast with the response of SNP, Green and other Yes campaigners who have never stopped trying to convert wavering No-ers to the Yes side since 2014. Change can only be achieved by converting previous opponents to your arguments. It is a basic, enduring truth of public life. Leavers totally fail to understand that. They think they will win by bullying, intimidation and bending the law. They won’t. The entire edifice is built on very shoddy foundations. It takes decades to build the solid base on which to advance. Leavers have been lazy, negligent and arrogant. There is no consensus to leave, and there never will be until the Leave side is lead by pleasant, trustworthy and persuasive people.
I agree with that. Of course, it helps Yessers that they lost, but in fairness Scottish unionists have also remained alive to their challenge.
Leavers seem to think that they can ride roughshod over everyone without debate. You can see it on this thread, where the very idea that the public might get to change its mind is treated with horror.
Balls.
Remain needs to respect the outcome of the vote and then vigorously campaign (if they still believe in the EU) for rejoining.
Mr. rkrkrk, ah, but a more competent Labour leader would've also actually campaigned for us to Remain to start with, and I'd contend that would've made the difference.
probably.
I also think, Leave having won, any half-way decent LOTO would have immediately pushed the line that the only sensible way to leave is for the UK to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union, refused to vote for triggering Article 50 unless that was govt policy, and campaigned in any election for it. And maybe by now we would have softly left the EU, and not too many people would be too upset.
But parts of the left (eg Corbyn) have always been opposed to the Single Market (and there are reasons) so we had the Labour Party seeming to say " we want to stay in the EU, but we want to leave the Single Market", which is just silly.
Has “People’s Vote” been officially dropped for “Confirmatory Referendum”?
Can’t we just call a spade a spade and call it the Losers Revote?
The basic problem Leavers have is that the more the public have seen of their plans, the less they like them. They have abjectly failed to create a consensus.
Their lack of introspection about this failure is the most enduring mystery of Brexit for me.
Contrast with the response of SNP, Green and other Yes campaigners who have never stopped trying to convert wavering No-ers to the Yes side since 2014. Change can only be achieved by converting previous opponents to your arguments. It is a basic, enduring truth of public life. Leavers totally fail to understand that. They think they will win by bullying, intimidation and bending the law. They won’t. The entire edifice is built on very shoddy foundations. It takes decades to build the solid base on which to advance. Leavers have been lazy, negligent and arrogant. There is no consensus to leave, and there never will be until the Leave side is lead by pleasant, trustworthy and persuasive people.
Leave won the EU referendum, they do not need to convert voters, just have their victory respected by diehard Remainers.
Yes lost the Scottish independence referendum and so do need to convert voters to reverse their defeat
Yes lost a once in a lifetime referendum and need to accept the democratic result of the Scottish people.
Not about how to, about whether to. That is the job of the winners, to show the losers that their vision includes them. Instead, Leavers have spent the last three years in increasing paranoia, imposing steadily more stringent purity tests and accusing doubters of being quislings, traitors and, in your case, doubting their mental health. Oddly this has not led to a consensus for Brexit, despite its mandate: if anything, the whole idea is losing support.
I can only imagine how inclusive Remainers would have been if they'd won, even by a couple of votes. We'll never know, of course, but I'd imagine they'd have gone back to the "looneys, fruitcakes and closet racists" attitude with amazing speed.
For starters, David Cameron’s renegotiation would in all probability have been implemented. So unlike Leave, who have ripped up their own prospectus and still purport to have a mandate, the Remain prospectus would have been delivered.
The epithets "looneys, fruitcakes and closet racists" have been patented, I think. They are applied by Conservatives to refer to opponents who wish to leave the EU. That is not how normal people refer to their fellow citizens.
Sky reporting Merkel wants to tie UK to regulatory alignment and tax as she is scared the UK will become a serious competitor along with the US and China
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Given the Leave vote was mainly a vote to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration based on the polling I would suggest it was more a vote for 'Britain First' than one to become a new low tax, low spend, low regulation Singapore and to do our own trade deals as global free trading Britain even if some Leave voters backed that
FPT - I’ve only just caught up with Cyclefree’s superb thread. Truly excellent stuff and I agree entirely.
Bravo.
The astonishing thing about the whole scandal is that even someone as politically interested as @NickPalmer was honest enough to admit not being aware of the details of the Henriques report.
Something which ought to rock the police establishment has passed almost unnoticed.
Has “People’s Vote” been officially dropped for “Confirmatory Referendum”?
Can’t we just call a spade a spade and call it the Losers Revote?
The basic problem Leavers have is that the more the public have seen of their plans, the less they like them. They have abjectly failed to create a consensus.
Their lack of introspection about this failure is the most enduring mystery of Brexit for me.
Contrast with the response of SNP, Green and other Yes campaigners who have never stopped trying to convert wavering No-ers to the Yes side since 2014. Change can only be achieved by converting previous opponents to your arguments. It is a basic, enduring truth of public life. Leavers totally fail to understand that. They think they will win by bullying, intimidation and bending the law. They won’t. The entire edifice is built on very shoddy foundations. It takes decades to build the solid base on which to advance. Leavers have been lazy, negligent and arrogant. There is no consensus to leave, and there never will be until the Leave side is lead by pleasant, trustworthy and persuasive people.
But there no pleasant, trustworthy or pleasant people in the SNP.
What a debut, illiterate as well oozing dumb bias. You'll fit right in.
Has “People’s Vote” been officially dropped for “Confirmatory Referendum”?
Can’t we just call a spade a spade and call it the Losers Revote?
The basic problem Leavers have is that the more the public have seen of their plans, the less they like them. They have abjectly failed to create a consensus.
Their lack of introspection about this failure is the most enduring mystery of Brexit for me.
Contrast with the response of SNP, Green and other Yes campaigners who have never stopped trying to convert wavering No-ers to the Yes side since 2014. Change can only be achieved by converting previous opponents to your arguments. It is a basic, enduring truth of public life. Leavers totally fail to understand that. They think they will win by bullying, intimidation and bending the law. They won’t. The entire edifice is built on very shoddy foundations. It takes decades to build the solid base on which to advance. Leavers have been lazy, negligent and arrogant. There is no consensus to leave, and there never will be until the Leave side is lead by pleasant, trustworthy and persuasive people.
Leave won the EU referendum, they do not need to convert voters, just have their victory respected by diehard Remainers.
Yes lost the Scottish independence referendum and so do need to convert voters to reverse their defeat
Yes lost a once in a lifetime referendum and need to accept the democratic result of the Scottish people.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Wouldn't Thierry Henry have been in the running for some world records or other?
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
I dont understand why people use hyperbole when qualifying hyperbole. Plenty of racists would have voted remain given its a sample of over 30 million. Racists far more likely to have voted leave would be accurate, but still unnecessarily divisive.
It creates a barrier to winning over non racist people who could vote either way but voted leave because of immigration. Win a quarter of those votes and remain would have a solid lead but language like the above gives those voters the impression remainers will not take their concerns seriously.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Given the Leave vote was mainly a vote to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration based on the polling I would suggest it was more a vote for 'Britain First' than one to become a new low tax, low spend, low regulation Singapore and to do our own trade deals as global free trading Britain even if some Leave voters backed that
I believe you have been a Tory candidate in the past and have aspirations to be in the future
“Britain First” is the name and slogan of an offshoot of the BNP
I would be wary of associating yourself with their agenda
(It’s up to you, and I’m not planning to debate this, but it’s just a friendly word of warning)
Today's Sky poll conducted by YouGov gives 46% blaming the EU if talks fail v 31% who believe the EU has been fair, 23% did not know
Support for no deal is 41% out weighing remaining at 33% while 14% hope negotiations will find another solution
32% trust Boris with Corbyn on 16% with 76% who do not trust him. Only 36% of labour 2017 voters trust Corbyn on Brexit with former leavers particularly sceptical
Only 14% trust mps and peers with 77% do not
So summing up, walking away with no deal has much wider support, if this poll is correct, confounding so many who want to remain
16% trusting Corbyn is horrendous for labour and he is very much their problem
The only question I have is how do 14% trust mps and peers- it should be zero
Indeed, if a Brexit Deal is not agreed this week voters now prefer No Deal to further extension
More spin !
Voters do not prefer no deal , 33% want to ditch Brexit and Remain which means staying with our current deal and 14% want more negotiations. So 47% against 41% .
55% prefer No Deal or a Brexit Deal after more negotiations to just a third for Remain
Today's Sky poll conducted by YouGov gives 46% blaming the EU if talks fail v 31% who believe the EU has been fair, 23% did not know
Support for no deal is 41% out weighing remaining at 33% while 14% hope negotiations will find another solution
32% trust Boris with Corbyn on 16% with 76% who do not trust him. Only 36% of labour 2017 voters trust Corbyn on Brexit with former leavers particularly sceptical
Only 14% trust mps and peers with 77% do not
So summing up, walking away with no deal has much wider support, if this poll is correct, confounding so many who want to remain
16% trusting Corbyn is horrendous for labour and he is very much their problem
The only question I have is how do 14% trust mps and peers- it should be zero
Indeed, if a Brexit Deal is not agreed this week voters now prefer No Deal to further extension
More spin !
Voters do not prefer no deal , 33% want to ditch Brexit and Remain which means staying with our current deal and 14% want more negotiations. So 47% against 41% .
55% prefer No Deal or a Brexit Deal after more negotiations to just a third for Remain
You'll be up for a confirmatory referendum then
A referendum, if it is held, has to include no deal as confirmed by Dominic Grieve
I don’t think we are actually disagreeing that much
You say members of a community should get to vote. I believe that members of a demos should get to vote.
A demos is - I believe - different to “people who happen to live in an area”
To be a member of a demos you have to be qualified as such. Those criteria change over time, but fundamentally if you are not qualified from birth you must make a conscious choice to join.
I suspect you view “Europeans” or “humans” as a single demos, while I limit it based on national units)
Re your point on commonwealth voting - fundamentally it’s a hang over from the principle of Civitas Romanus Sum - I am a Roman Citizen. Due to a strange intellectual psychodrama the Brits regarded themselves as the inheritors of the Roman Empire. If you were a Citizen of the Empire you had the right to vote in U.K. elections and when the Empire was dissolved it was decided to retain that principle. On Ireland it was explained on the last thread: it is nothing to do with the GFA but rather a legacy of our long and complex history)
I think you're right, we aren't that far apart. I'll qualify what how you've characterised my view. I don't believe in a single "demos", to use your term. That is because there is a place for countries. Nationalism, or perhaps subsidiarity, has its place, and the idea that people living here and people living in, say, Peru, should be voting on the same things is too far fetched at this stage in human history, perhaps ever. The point of divergence is that by the dual qualification of choosing to live here, and having the right to do so, I think you qualify for the demos. That is, you are part of the community, you are affected by its common rules, and you deserve a say in how they are shaped. But at this stage I'm stating nothing new and I acknowledge you don't agree with that. Just clarifying my position on this idea of a global demos, which is a bit further than what I'm trying to say.
FPT - I’ve only just caught up with Cyclefree’s superb thread. Truly excellent stuff and I agree entirely.
Bravo.
The astonishing thing about the whole scandal is that even someone as politically interested as @NickPalmer was honest enough to admit not being aware of the details of the Henriques report.
Something which ought to rock the police establishment has passed almost unnoticed.
I hardly knew about it at all to be honest.
Which admission does you credit. And reinforces Cyclefree's argument.
Mr. Sandpit, the sub-two hour marathon was a phenomenal story. But it was also a day earlier.
F1 is has become a rather boring procession decided by arcane pit-stop/tyre strategies imo.
Added to which, surely even F1 fans have to admit that Sunday's result was hardly startling in the way that the new women's marathon WR and sub 2 hour men's marathon were.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
Evidence please
This is a statement that can be falsified more easily than it can be verified, so evidence to the contrary please. E.g. any prominent or well known far right, xenophobic, British nationalist or racist person who has advocated for continued UK EU membership? I genuinely don't know of any but if you do - you do seem to know a lot of interesting people - I'd be glad to hear about it.
Today's Sky poll conducted by YouGov gives 46% blaming the EU if talks fail v 31% who believe the EU has been fair, 23% did not know
Support for no deal is 41% out weighing remaining at 33% while 14% hope negotiations will find another solution
32% trust Boris with Corbyn on 16% with 76% who do not trust him. Only 36% of labour 2017 voters trust Corbyn on Brexit with former leavers particularly sceptical
Only 14% trust mps and peers with 77% do not
So summing up, walking away with no deal has much wider support, if this poll is correct, confounding so many who want to remain
16% trusting Corbyn is horrendous for labour and he is very much their problem
The only question I have is how do 14% trust mps and peers- it should be zero
Indeed, if a Brexit Deal is not agreed this week voters now prefer No Deal to further extension
More spin !
Voters do not prefer no deal , 33% want to ditch Brexit and Remain which means staying with our current deal and 14% want more negotiations. So 47% against 41% .
55% prefer No Deal or a Brexit Deal after more negotiations to just a third for Remain
You'll be up for a confirmatory referendum then
A referendum, if it is held, has to include no deal as confirmed by Dominic Grieve
I don't think it absolutely does Big_G, although personally I'd support that.
I don't think it will because too many in the HoC are set against No Deal.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Given the Leave vote was mainly a vote to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration based on the polling I would suggest it was more a vote for 'Britain First' than one to become a new low tax, low spend, low regulation Singapore and to do our own trade deals as global free trading Britain even if some Leave voters backed that
I believe you have been a Tory candidate in the past and have aspirations to be in the future
“Britain First” is the name and slogan of an offshoot of the BNP
I would be wary of associating yourself with their agenda
(It’s up to you, and I’m not planning to debate this, but it’s just a friendly word of warning)
I maybe wrong, but it doesn't appear that HYUFD has any boundaries on how far right he's willing to align. He's a Trump apologist, and white supremacy and racist persecution is definitely on the table for Trump, so perhaps the "Britain First" allusion is deliberate.
regarding the implementation of Brexit , El capitano says: "Hopefully you'll think twice before outsourcing a job to the Conservative Party again."
The Labour Party have chiefly been the bar to resolving Brexit. The Tories have busted a gut to implement. It`s true that many of the public (wrongly) blamed the Tories, but I think the wool is removed from their eye now that Boris is PM.
I suspect that the electoral damage to the Tories if we don`t leave by 31/10 has lessened somewhat.
From an outsiders perspective it is all quite strange. Presumably the separatist leaders expected a stronger reaction from the Catalan people post the vote, otherwise why hold it? Why was there not a bigger civil struggle?
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
Evidence please
This is a statement that can be falsified more easily than it can be verified, so evidence to the contrary please. E.g. any prominent or well known far right, xenophobic, British nationalist or racist person who has advocated for continued UK EU membership? I genuinely don't know of any but if you do - you do seem to know a lot of interesting people - I'd be glad to hear about it.
Gordon Brown (but quite possibly not Jeremy Corbyn).
Today's Sky poll conducted by YouGov gives 46% blaming the EU if talks fail v 31% who believe the EU has been fair, 23% did not know
Support for no deal is 41% out weighing remaining at 33% while 14% hope negotiations will find another solution
32% trust Boris with Corbyn on 16% with 76% who do not trust him. Only 36% of labour 2017 voters trust Corbyn on Brexit with former leavers particularly sceptical
Only 14% trust mps and peers with 77% do not
So summing up, walking away with no deal has much wider support, if this poll is correct, confounding so many who want to remain
16% trusting Corbyn is horrendous for labour and he is very much their problem
The only question I have is how do 14% trust mps and peers- it should be zero
Indeed, if a Brexit Deal is not agreed this week voters now prefer No Deal to further extension
More spin !
Voters do not prefer no deal , 33% want to ditch Brexit and Remain which means staying with our current deal and 14% want more negotiations. So 47% against 41% .
55% prefer No Deal or a Brexit Deal after more negotiations to just a third for Remain
You'll be up for a confirmatory referendum then
A referendum, if it is held, has to include no deal as confirmed by Dominic Grieve
I don't think it absolutley does Big_G, although personally I'd support that.
With 41% in todays poll supporting no deal it would be just wrong not to include the three options
I have not disputed it, if Canada does end up with a Liberal NDP coalition as now looks likely it would be the first coalition government in Canada since the War
We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
Evidence please
This is a statement that can be falsified more easily than it can be verified, so evidence to the contrary please. E.g. any prominent or well known far right, xenophobic, British nationalist or racist person who has advocated for continued UK EU membership? I genuinely don't know of any but if you do - you do seem to know a lot of interesting people - I'd be glad to hear about it.
You dont think there is anyone who perhaps likes EU migration more than rest of world migration for racist reasons and accordingly voted remain?
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
I dont understand why people use hyperbole when qualifying hyperbole. Plenty of racists would have voted remain given its a sample of over 30 million. Racists far more likely to have voted leave would be accurate, but still unnecessarily divisive.
It creates a barrier to winning over non racist people who could vote either way but voted leave because of immigration. Win a quarter of those votes and remain would have a solid lead but language like the above gives those voters the impression remainers will not take their concerns seriously.
I don't think you can accuse any Remainer of being divisive. The Leave side were the ones who called for this divisive vote and won it off the back of a load of inflammatory anti-immigration rhetoric, they weren't all sitting around singing kumbiya. I'm just telling it like I see it, it's not my job to heal the nation. That's the job of the Prime Minister, but he's too busy calling Remainers traitors.
Today's Sky poll conducted by YouGov gives 46% blaming the EU if talks fail v 31% who believe the EU has been fair, 23% did not know
Support for no deal is 41% out weighing remaining at 33% while 14% hope negotiations will find another solution
32% trust Boris with Corbyn on 16% with 76% who do not trust him. Only 36% of labour 2017 voters trust Corbyn on Brexit with former leavers particularly sceptical
Only 14% trust mps and peers with 77% do not
So summing up, walking away with no deal has much wider support, if this poll is correct, confounding so many who want to remain
16% trusting Corbyn is horrendous for labour and he is very much their problem
The only question I have is how do 14% trust mps and peers- it should be zero
Indeed, if a Brexit Deal is not agreed this week voters now prefer No Deal to further extension
More spin !
Voters do not prefer no deal , 33% want to ditch Brexit and Remain which means staying with our current deal and 14% want more negotiations. So 47% against 41% .
55% prefer No Deal or a Brexit Deal after more negotiations to just a third for Remain
You'll be up for a confirmatory referendum then
A referendum, if it is held, has to include no deal as confirmed by Dominic Grieve
I don't think it absolutley does Big_G, although personally I'd support that.
With 41% in todays poll supporting no deal it would be just wrong not to include the three options
I'd like to see the data behind today's poll, including the actual questions.
Anyone got a link to the data, I can't find it on Sky's site?
(But yes Big_G, I'd support No Deal being on the referendum as one of three options.)
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
Evidence please
This is a statement that can be falsified more easily than it can be verified, so evidence to the contrary please. E.g. any prominent or well known far right, xenophobic, British nationalist or racist person who has advocated for continued UK EU membership? I genuinely don't know of any but if you do - you do seem to know a lot of interesting people - I'd be glad to hear about it.
You made the accusation
But I suspect that some anti-Semites on the left voted to remain
regarding the implementation of Brexit , El capitano says: "Hopefully you'll think twice before outsourcing a job to the Conservative Party again."
The Labour Party have chiefly been the bar to resolving Brexit. The Tories have busted a gut to implement. It`s true that many of the public (wrongly) blamed the Tories, but I think the wool is removed from their eye now that Boris is PM.
Well, you know, the Conservatives did have a majority to implement it in 2016, which for some bizarre reason they chose to throw away.
The Brexit referendum was a Conservative policy. I'm no defender of Corbyn but it's not the Opposition's fault that the Conservatives have been unable to implement Conservative policy. An Opposition opposing Government policy is hardly the most surprising course of events.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
Evidence please
This is a statement that can be falsified more easily than it can be verified, so evidence to the contrary please. E.g. any prominent or well known far right, xenophobic, British nationalist or racist person who has advocated for continued UK EU membership? I genuinely don't know of any but if you do - you do seem to know a lot of interesting people - I'd be glad to hear about it.
You dont think there is anyone who perhaps likes EU migration more than rest of world migration for racist reasons and accordingly voted remain?
It's logically possible but I've never met or heard of any example of it. On the other hand I have seen more evidence of frothing racists on the Leave side than I would ever have wanted to.
The equivalent would be the UK government arresting Sturgeon and her Cabinet for trying to hold indyref2 and sentencing them all to 9 to 13 years in jail.
That is what the Spanish Supreme Court has done and mass protests are now underway in Barcelona though polls suggest Catalan nationalists could hold the balance of power after next month's Spanish general election with neither the Socialists and Podemos or PP, Citizens and Vox projected to get a majority
If there is a budget on 6/11 the Government would have to take the ludicrous step of voting to dissolve, proroguing and dissolving the same day to get a GE on 12/12. That's not going to happen. If the Government is really planning a 2019 GE it's going about it is a very odd way. The Budget date announcement should move the betting markets on this.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
I dont understand why people use hyperbole when qualifying hyperbole. Plenty of racists would have voted remain given its a sample of over 30 million. Racists far more likely to have voted leave would be accurate, but still unnecessarily divisive.
It creates a barrier to winning over non racist people who could vote either way but voted leave because of immigration. Win a quarter of those votes and remain would have a solid lead but language like the above gives those voters the impression remainers will not take their concerns seriously.
I don't think you can accuse any Remainer of being divisive. The Leave side were the ones who called for this divisive vote and won it off the back of a load of inflammatory anti-immigration rhetoric, they weren't all sitting around singing kumbiya. I'm just telling it like I see it, it's not my job to heal the nation. That's the job of the Prime Minister, but he's too busy calling Remainers traitors.
The PM is a disgrace, we should not sink to his standards. It is everyones job to heal the nation, even if not many are trying to do so.
El_Capitano - no it`s not Conservative policy - its the fact that MPs across party approved the referendum (stupidly IMO) and failed to implement the result (though they said that they would).
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
Evidence please
This is a statement that can be falsified more easily than it can be verified, so evidence to the contrary please. E.g. any prominent or well known far right, xenophobic, British nationalist or racist person who has advocated for continued UK EU membership? I genuinely don't know of any but if you do - you do seem to know a lot of interesting people - I'd be glad to hear about it.
You made the accusation
But I suspect that some anti-Semites on the left voted to remain
I doubt it, they're mostly Lexiteers. Apologies if I go silent now, being a member of the metropolitan liberal elite I am about to fly to NYC.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Given the Leave vote was mainly a vote to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration based on the polling I would suggest it was more a vote for 'Britain First' than one to become a new low tax, low spend, low regulation Singapore and to do our own trade deals as global free trading Britain even if some Leave voters backed that
I believe you have been a Tory candidate in the past and have aspirations to be in the future
“Britain First” is the name and slogan of an offshoot of the BNP
I would be wary of associating yourself with their agenda
(It’s up to you, and I’m not planning to debate this, but it’s just a friendly word of warning)
I maybe wrong, but it doesn't appear that HYUFD has any boundaries on how far right he's willing to align. He's a Trump apologist, and white supremacy and racist persecution is definitely on the table for Trump, so perhaps the "Britain First" allusion is deliberate.
I know a number of black and Asian voters who voted Leave to reduce European immigration to the UK
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
Evidence please
This is a statement that can be falsified more easily than it can be verified, so evidence to the contrary please. E.g. any prominent or well known far right, xenophobic, British nationalist or racist person who has advocated for continued UK EU membership? I genuinely don't know of any but if you do - you do seem to know a lot of interesting people - I'd be glad to hear about it.
You made the accusation
But I suspect that some anti-Semites on the left voted to remain
That's a fair point, but for reference we were talking about racism. If we're agreed that antisemitism is racism -- and I do agree -- I never again want to hear anybody tell me that islamophobia isn't.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
I dont understand why people use hyperbole when qualifying hyperbole. Plenty of racists would have voted remain given its a sample of over 30 million. Racists far more likely to have voted leave would be accurate, but still unnecessarily divisive.
It creates a barrier to winning over non racist people who could vote either way but voted leave because of immigration. Win a quarter of those votes and remain would have a solid lead but language like the above gives those voters the impression remainers will not take their concerns seriously.
I don't think you can accuse any Remainer of being divisive. The Leave side were the ones who called for this divisive vote and won it off the back of a load of inflammatory anti-immigration rhetoric, they weren't all sitting around singing kumbiya. I'm just telling it like I see it, it's not my job to heal the nation. That's the job of the Prime Minister, but he's too busy calling Remainers traitors.
The PM is a disgrace, we should not sink to his standards. It is everyones job to heal the nation, even if not many are trying to do so.
Why shouldn't we sink to his standards, it's working great for him.
Today's Sky poll conducted by YouGov gives 46% blaming the EU if talks fail v 31% who believe the EU has been fair, 23% did not know
Support for no deal is 41% out weighing remaining at 33% while 14% hope negotiations will find another solution
32% trust Boris with Corbyn on 16% with 76% who do not trust him. Only 36% of labour 2017 voters trust Corbyn on Brexit with former leavers particularly sceptical
Only 14% trust mps and peers with 77% do not
So summing up, walking away with no deal has much wider support, if this poll is correct, confounding so many who want to remain
16% trusting Corbyn is horrendous for labour and he is very much their problem
The only question I have is how do 14% trust mps and peers- it should be zero
Indeed, if a Brexit Deal is not agreed this week voters now prefer No Deal to further extension
More spin !
Voters do not prefer no deal , 33% want to ditch Brexit and Remain which means staying with our current deal and 14% want more negotiations. So 47% against 41% .
55% prefer No Deal or a Brexit Deal after more negotiations to just a third for Remain
You'll be up for a confirmatory referendum then
A referendum, if it is held, has to include no deal as confirmed by Dominic Grieve
I don't think it absolutley does Big_G, although personally I'd support that.
With 41% in todays poll supporting no deal it would be just wrong not to include the three options
I'd like to see the data behind today's poll, including the actual questions.
Anyone got a link to the data, I can't find it on Sky's site?
(But yes Big_G, I'd support NO Deal being on the referendum as one of three options.)
It is a YouGov poll, not one of Skys viewers, so it is from a responsible pollster
I do not have the detail questions but the three jump out conclusions are the electorate blame the EU more than the UK government for a no deal, no deal is supported by 41% v 33% and Corbyn is an albatross round labour's neck
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Given the Leave vote was mainly a vote to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration based on the polling I would suggest it was more a vote for 'Britain First' than one to become a new low tax, low spend, low regulation Singapore and to do our own trade deals as global free trading Britain even if some Leave voters backed that
I believe you have been a Tory candidate in the past and have aspirations to be in the future
“Britain First” is the name and slogan of an offshoot of the BNP
I would be wary of associating yourself with their agenda
(It’s up to you, and I’m not planning to debate this, but it’s just a friendly word of warning)
So what, I am not a member of the BNP but the point remains the Brexit vote was won for similar reasons as Trump won the US Presidency on an "America First' agenda ie to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration.
You were a Leaver I recall, I voted Remain, you may not like the reasons most people voted Leave but they were the reasons nonetheless
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Given the Leave vote was mainly a vote to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration based on the polling I would suggest it was more a vote for 'Britain First' than one to become a new low tax, low spend, low regulation Singapore and to do our own trade deals as global free trading Britain even if some Leave voters backed that
I believe you have been a Tory candidate in the past and have aspirations to be in the future
“Britain First” is the name and slogan of an offshoot of the BNP
I would be wary of associating yourself with their agenda
(It’s up to you, and I’m not planning to debate this, but it’s just a friendly word of warning)
I maybe wrong, but it doesn't appear that HYUFD has any boundaries on how far right he's willing to align. He's a Trump apologist, and white supremacy and racist persecution is definitely on the table for Trump, so perhaps the "Britain First" allusion is deliberate.
I know a number of black and Asian voters who voted Leave to reduce European immigration to the UK
Oh, a black person voted Leave, therefore Trump isn't a white supremacist? Go back to bed.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
Evidence please
This is a statement that can be falsified more easily than it can be verified, so evidence to the contrary please. E.g. any prominent or well known far right, xenophobic, British nationalist or racist person who has advocated for continued UK EU membership? I genuinely don't know of any but if you do - you do seem to know a lot of interesting people - I'd be glad to hear about it.
You made the accusation
But I suspect that some anti-Semites on the left voted to remain
Of course you are right @Charles that among 16m+ Remain voters there will be some racists. Added to which, I am pretty sure that most of the Leave voters (and certanily those posting on here) are not racist.
Although of course at some level we are all racist - we all have unconsious biases. Taking a test like these can give surpising results...
We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
It is indeed.
Yet bizarrely some people in this country want to have politicians from Spain and Hungary and other countries that have created messes like that to set our laws rather than control our own laws from our own country with MPs we elect. Odd isn't it?
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
It is indeed.
Yet bizarrely some people in this country want to have politicians from Spain and Hungary and other countries that have created messes like that to set our laws rather than control our own laws from our own country with MPs we elect. Odd isn't it?
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
Evidence please
This is a statement that can be falsified more easily than it can be verified, so evidence to the contrary please. E.g. any prominent or well known far right, xenophobic, British nationalist or racist person who has advocated for continued UK EU membership? I genuinely don't know of any but if you do - you do seem to know a lot of interesting people - I'd be glad to hear about it.
You made the accusation
But I suspect that some anti-Semites on the left voted to remain
That's a fair point, but for reference we were talking about racism. If we're agreed that antisemitism is racism -- and I do agree -- I never again want to hear anybody tell me that islamophobia isn't.
If someone is being Islamophobic because they don't like Muslims because of their race of course it is racism! If you are being bigotted against someone due to their skin or something they can't control then of course that is racism.
The problem is when idiots decide to label things as Islamophobic that have nothing to do with racism. Which devalues the word and devalues racism.
Be careful about associating yourself with the slogan “Britain First”
Brexit was certainly not a vote for that agenda (even though some of that ilk may have supported Brexit l)
Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but every racist voted for Brexit.
I dont understand why people use hyperbole when qualifying hyperbole. Plenty of racists would have voted remain given its a sample of over 30 million. Racists far more likely to have voted leave would be accurate, but still unnecessarily divisive.
It creates a barrier to winning over non racist people who could vote either way but voted leave because of immigration. Win a quarter of those votes and remain would have a solid lead but language like the above gives those voters the impression remainers will not take their concerns seriously.
I don't think you can accuse any Remainer of being divisive. The Leave side were the ones who called for this divisive vote and won it off the back of a load of inflammatory anti-immigration rhetoric, they weren't all sitting around singing kumbiya. I'm just telling it like I see it, it's not my job to heal the nation. That's the job of the Prime Minister, but he's too busy calling Remainers traitors.
The PM is a disgrace, we should not sink to his standards. It is everyones job to heal the nation, even if not many are trying to do so.
Why shouldn't we sink to his standards, it's working great for him.
Life is better without division, even if it is hard work at times. If our leaders are poor as they are now, it is time for individual citizens to step up not sink down.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
Your average gym treadmill likely doesn't even go up to this pace.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
Your average gym treadmill likely doesn't even go up to this pace.
We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
It is indeed.
Yet bizarrely some people in this country want to have politicians from Spain and Hungary and other countries that have created messes like that to set our laws rather than control our own laws from our own country with MPs we elect. Odd isn't it?
I don't want people from elsewhere controlling who is allowed to secede. It always has to be up to the people who live there, not the people outside. Fortunately, Spanish constitutional issues are Spanish, not European. If Europe had no mechanism for allowing countries to leave, I would be firmly anti-EU. It would be unwise to pretend that Spain and Europe are similar.
We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
It is indeed.
Yet bizarrely some people in this country want to have politicians from Spain and Hungary and other countries that have created messes like that to set our laws rather than control our own laws from our own country with MPs we elect. Odd isn't it?
Quite a few were dancing jigs over the fact that a foreign leader would be able to use his power to veto the will of the British parliament.
We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
It is indeed.
Yet bizarrely some people in this country want to have politicians from Spain and Hungary and other countries that have created messes like that to set our laws rather than control our own laws from our own country with MPs we elect. Odd isn't it?
In Spain importance is attached to the rule of law. It applies equally to all who break it.
We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
Nonsense. All of this is available in Spain. Law breaking is not.
FPT - I’ve only just caught up with Cyclefree’s superb thread. Truly excellent stuff and I agree entirely.
Bravo.
The astonishing thing about the whole scandal is that even someone as politically interested as @NickPalmer was honest enough to admit not being aware of the details of the Henriques report.
Something which ought to rock the police establishment has passed almost unnoticed.
Agreed. Aided by the fact that today’s QS will contain a load of incoherent nonsense about law ‘n’ order. Take two points: ensuring that serious criminals are not released halfway through their sentence. This is already the case.
Second, the budget on the entire justice system has been cut by 40%. That is why courts are shutting, people are waiting over a year for trials, judges are sitting idle etc. The recent spending statement only increased the current budget by 5%.
Remember this when the Tory fan boys start praising all the QS promises made today.
The Tories - in their current incarnation - are busy destroying everything that has been good about this country.
We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
Nonsense. All of this is available in Spain. Law breaking is not.
I believe the only mechanism for Catalonia to have a 'legal' referendum is for it to be agreed to in the Spanish parliament (not too different from the UK). Just imagine the squawking if a UK EU referendum could only have been permitted by Brussels.
We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
Nonsense. All of this is available in Spain. Law breaking is not.
I believe the only mechanism for Catalonia to have a 'legal' referendum is for it to be agreed to in the Spanish parliament (not too different from the UK). Just imagine the squawking if a UK EU referendum could only have been permitted by Brussels.
Are there enough independents appalled by Trump to win this for Warren? Are there enough African-Americans who will support her rather than Obama's man Biden?
I don’t think we are actually disagreeing that much
You say members of a community should get to vote. I believe that members of a demos should get to vote.
A demos is - I believe - different to “people who happen to live in an area”
To be a member of a demos you have to be qualified as such. Those criteria change over time, but fundamentally if you are not qualified from birth you must make a conscious choice to join.
I suspect you view “Europeans” or “humans” as a single demos, while I limit it based on national units)
Re your point on commonwealth voting - fundamentally it’s a hang over from the principle of Civitas Romanus Sum - I am a Roman Citizen. Due to a strange intellectual psychodrama the Brits regarded themselves as the inheritors of the Roman Empire. If you were a Citizen of the Empire you had the right to vote in U.K. elections and when the Empire was dissolved it was decided to retain that principle. On Ireland it was explained on the last thread: it is nothing to do with the GFA but rather a legacy of our long and complex history)
How do you reconcile that with the principle of “no taxation without representation”?
Her quip really wasn't helpful. Anyway hopefully it won't hurt her campaign too much. If she ends up being the nominee I'd vote for her, just, over Trump.
We should take a moment to realise we live in a sensible country where this sort of thing was negotiated politically, and the legitimate political aims have a mechanism through which they can be achieved. The UK is better than Spain.
Nonsense. All of this is available in Spain. Law breaking is not.
I believe the only mechanism for Catalonia to have a 'legal' referendum is for it to be agreed to in the Spanish parliament (not too different from the UK). Just imagine the squawking if a UK EU referendum could only have been permitted by Brussels.
that is the case for scotland though.
Aye, hence the 'not too different from the UK'.
The UK Union, much less democratic than the European Union.
FPT - I’ve only just caught up with Cyclefree’s superb thread. Truly excellent stuff and I agree entirely.
Bravo.
The astonishing thing about the whole scandal is that even someone as politically interested as @NickPalmer was honest enough to admit not being aware of the details of the Henriques report.
Something which ought to rock the police establishment has passed almost unnoticed.
I hardly knew about it at all to be honest.
And yet it was all over the front pages of the newspapers on two successive days, lead story on various news programmes etc.
If your reaction is at all representative - and I have no reason to believe it isn’t - little wonder governments and the police and others can get away with such appalling behaviour.
Just as an aside, the BBC's ridiculous. Apparently marathon news and American gymnastics come ahead of F1...
Been a big weekend for marathons.
Plus, which is more interesting? I could drive a F1 car as fast as Hamilton (OK, except round the corners). I doubt I could do half a Kosgei or Kipchoge speed, even on the straight bits.
Kipchoge's average speed was 13.1mph, which is faster than most people can run 100m - even fit amateur athletes can't keep up that pace for more than a minute or so.
Truly astounding. I remember reading somewhere that Usain Bolt may never have run a mile in his life, given he is geared to sprinting, but to consider someone can consistently run at regular person sprinting speed for 2 hours, well, its remarkable what the human body can manage.
I think he's faster than most regular people's sprinting speed.
I think someone said he did 17 seconds per 100m, which is about what I managed at Secondary School.
Were you faster or slower than average?
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
I was one of the few kids with the determination to run the whole of the 1500m, rather than stop and walk for a breather, so there's that, but I never considered myself one of the sporty kids.
It's possible that our PE teacher's timing was biased towards being encouraging, I guess - it was an Inner London Comprehensive! Now that Sandpit has given Kipchoge's exact pace I was a bit off it - the time I was given was 17.6s.
Her quip really wasn't helpful. Anyway hopefully it won't hurt her campaign too much. If she ends up being the nominee I'd vote for her, just, over Trump.
There are very few undecideds in the culture war, just those who are more or less motivated to vote. It's a boat race not a tug of war.
I doubt the quip will make the slightest difference to voter identification. It may persuade more on both sides to vote.
(It was a well-delivered, but hardly original, put-down.)
Comments
I don’t think we are actually disagreeing that much
You say members of a community should get to vote. I believe that members of a demos should get to vote.
A demos is - I believe - different to “people who happen to live in an area”
To be a member of a demos you have to be qualified as such. Those criteria change over time, but fundamentally if you are not qualified from birth you must make a conscious choice to join.
I suspect you view “Europeans” or “humans” as a single demos, while I limit it based on national units)
Re your point on commonwealth voting - fundamentally it’s a hang over from the principle of Civitas Romanus Sum - I am a Roman Citizen. Due to a strange intellectual psychodrama the Brits regarded themselves as the inheritors of the Roman Empire. If you were a Citizen of the Empire you had the right to vote in U.K. elections and when the Empire was dissolved it was decided to retain that principle. On Ireland it was explained on the last thread: it is nothing to do with the GFA but rather a legacy of our long and complex history)
Remain needs to respect the outcome of the vote and then vigorously campaign (if they still believe in the EU) for rejoining.
😉
I also think, Leave having won, any half-way decent LOTO would have immediately pushed the line that the only sensible way to leave is for the UK to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union, refused to vote for triggering Article 50 unless that was govt policy, and campaigned in any election for it. And maybe by now we would have softly left the EU, and not too many people would be too upset.
But parts of the left (eg Corbyn) have always been opposed to the Single Market (and there are reasons) so we had the Labour Party seeming to say " we want to stay in the EU, but we want to leave the Single Market", which is just silly.
It creates a barrier to winning over non racist people who could vote either way but voted leave because of immigration. Win a quarter of those votes and remain would have a solid lead but language like the above gives those voters the impression remainers will not take their concerns seriously.
“Britain First” is the name and slogan of an offshoot of the BNP
I would be wary of associating yourself with their agenda
(It’s up to you, and I’m not planning to debate this, but it’s just a friendly word of warning)
Hi Turd Polish, I'd just like you to meet what we're using you to buff up.
https://twitter.com/euronews/status/1183653366704103424?s=20
I'll qualify what how you've characterised my view. I don't believe in a single "demos", to use your term. That is because there is a place for countries. Nationalism, or perhaps subsidiarity, has its place, and the idea that people living here and people living in, say, Peru, should be voting on the same things is too far fetched at this stage in human history, perhaps ever.
The point of divergence is that by the dual qualification of choosing to live here, and having the right to do so, I think you qualify for the demos. That is, you are part of the community, you are affected by its common rules, and you deserve a say in how they are shaped.
But at this stage I'm stating nothing new and I acknowledge you don't agree with that. Just clarifying my position on this idea of a global demos, which is a bit further than what I'm trying to say.
And reinforces Cyclefree's argument.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/catalan-separatist-leaders-given-lengthy-prison-sentences
Added to which, surely even F1 fans have to admit that Sunday's result was hardly startling in the way that the new women's marathon WR and sub 2 hour men's marathon were.
I don't think it will because too many in the HoC are set against No Deal.
The Labour Party have chiefly been the bar to resolving Brexit. The Tories have busted a gut to implement. It`s true that many of the public (wrongly) blamed the Tories, but I think the wool is removed from their eye now that Boris is PM.
I suspect that the electoral damage to the Tories if we don`t leave by 31/10 has lessened somewhat.
Leave
Britain First
British National Party
National Front
UKIP
Tommy Robinson'
https://tinyurl.com/y4xckj86
Anyone got a link to the data, I can't find it on Sky's site?
(But yes Big_G, I'd support No Deal being on the referendum as one of three options.)
But I suspect that some anti-Semites on the left voted to remain
The Brexit referendum was a Conservative policy. I'm no defender of Corbyn but it's not the Opposition's fault that the Conservatives have been unable to implement Conservative policy. An Opposition opposing Government policy is hardly the most surprising course of events.
That is what the Spanish Supreme Court has done and mass protests are now underway in Barcelona though polls suggest Catalan nationalists could hold the balance of power after next month's Spanish general election with neither the Socialists and Podemos or PP, Citizens and Vox projected to get a majority
I don't think I have ever done 100m in 17 seconds. That's 1km in 170 seconds or over 21km per hour or over 13 miles per hour. I've never even gotten close to that speed on a treadmill.
I do not have the detail questions but the three jump out conclusions are the electorate blame the EU more than the UK government for a no deal, no deal is supported by 41% v 33% and Corbyn is an albatross round labour's neck
You were a Leaver I recall, I voted Remain, you may not like the reasons most people voted Leave but they were the reasons nonetheless
Go back to bed.
Although of course at some level we are all racist - we all have unconsious biases. Taking a test like these can give surpising results...
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html
Yet bizarrely some people in this country want to have politicians from Spain and Hungary and other countries that have created messes like that to set our laws rather than control our own laws from our own country with MPs we elect. Odd isn't it?
The problem is when idiots decide to label things as Islamophobic that have nothing to do with racism. Which devalues the word and devalues racism.
Fortunately, Spanish constitutional issues are Spanish, not European. If Europe had no mechanism for allowing countries to leave, I would be firmly anti-EU. It would be unwise to pretend that Spain and Europe are similar.
In other news, China's made some conciliatory noises. Or not:
"China's president has issued a warning against dissent, saying any attempt to divide China will end in "bodies smashed and bones ground to powder"."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-50035229
I urge them to look for more sensible explanations other than degenerating 17.4 million of their fellow souls that share the Uk.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1183664884220907520?s=20
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1183663961687908352?s=20
Are there enough African-Americans who will support her rather than Obama's man Biden?
Big questions, I think, for the Dems this Fall.
The UK Union, much less democratic than the European Union.
And yet it was all over the front pages of the newspapers on two successive days, lead story on various news programmes etc.
If your reaction is at all representative - and I have no reason to believe it isn’t - little wonder governments and the police and others can get away with such appalling behaviour.
It's possible that our PE teacher's timing was biased towards being encouraging, I guess - it was an Inner London Comprehensive! Now that Sandpit has given Kipchoge's exact pace I was a bit off it - the time I was given was 17.6s.
I doubt the quip will make the slightest difference to voter identification. It may persuade more on both sides to vote.
(It was a well-delivered, but hardly original, put-down.)
And the 'sovereign will of the Scottish people' that Sturgeon likes to pretend she cares about was to stay in the UK.
Still, at least the SNP are consistent. They want to ignore what the Scots want for Scotland and what the British want for the UK.