If Boris crashes us out, travellers from the UK to the EU will need to:
• Visit GOV.UK for information regarding immigration requirements of the country they are travelling to if the reason for their visit is work or study, or if they intend to remain for longer than 90 in any 180-day period. • Check that their passport complies with the Schengen entry requirements using the online tool. Priority services are available for more urgent travel, at an additional fee. • Ensure that they have documentation required by immigration authorities, such as proof of sufficient funds for the duration of their stay or a return ticket. • Continue to buy comprehensive travel insurance, as UK-issued EHICs may no longer be valid depending on the country they are visiting. People with pre-existing medical conditions, which would have been covered by the EHIC, should discuss how this would affect travel plans and insurance cover with their GP and insurer. • Contact the relevant EU country’s authority to see if they need to start paying any social security contributions in that country. • If intending to drive in the EU, familiarise themselves with the information in the transport section of this chapter which details the documents that may be required. • Check the roaming policy of their mobile operator before travelling to the EU and EEA countries.
What a pain in the arse
"There may be new document requirements for drivers (both commercial and private), who plan on driving to, from or within the EU, to comply with. "
I mean, what the fuck does that mean? "May be"? Will there, yes or no? And if so, what? How to I apply? How long in advance? What happens if I don't? Christ, what a clusterfuck.
"UK driving licence holders who live in the EU, EEA or Switzerland should exchange their UK driving licence for a licence in the country where they live before 31 October 2019. Licence exchange arrangements may stop in some EU and EEA countries, if we leave without a deal, and UK licence holders may then have to retake their driving test in the EU or EEA country where they live."
Gifts: • If an individual receives a gift from outside the UK that is worth £39 or less, no import VAT is due. • To qualify as gifts, goods must be: described as gifts on the customs declaration; for a birthday, anniversary or other occasion; sent between private individuals (not companies); and intended for personal use.
So if my good friend who lives in Brussels sends me a nice box of chocolates, we need to -- what, work out the exchange rate on the day it was bought? Whom do I pay?
Parcelforce or Royal Mail, and they will charge you another £10 or £16 for processing (I forget the exact sum).
Is there a problem with the UK staying in the Customs Union and Single Market?
Yes its completely illogical, there is a reason not one other country is in both but not the EU, we may as well stay in the EU if we were to do that, we voted to leave.
Give me one good reason to leave the EU but stay in the customs union and single market please.
We protect our economy, which is closely integrated with the rest of the EU, but we leave the political structures, CAP and CFP. Leaving the CAP is particularly significant from the budget point of view.
Having left the political structures it would then be easier to gently disengage in the future, if the British people elected governments with that policy.
In terms of "getting Brexit done" it was the obvious compromise position that would have achieved that and prevented any economic shock - thus undercutting any impetus for a "Rejoin" campaign.
It is true that we would have left the political structures in that we would have had no say in the rules and regulations but we would have been forced to follow all rules and regulations of both the single market and customs union still.
By leaving the political structures we don't mean not having a say in the rules we are subject to, we mean writing our own rules.
Any company that wants to sell into the EU Single Market will have to abide by a large number of their rules - so the idea that we would have complete freedom to set our own rules is something of a myth.
I wasn't advocating the arrangement as a perfect end state. It clearly has its demerits (which is why I support EU membership in preference to it). However, you asked the question to provide "one good reason" and I think I provided more than one good reason in reply.
And more to the point it's no kind of end state, as the Leavers who originally advocated such a post Brexit destination argued. It would have been, however, a stable and minimally disruptive arrangement from which to make plans for the future, without any imposed deadlines.
This piece makes a number of good points. Most salient for me was pointing out the hypocrisy of Brexiteers prioritising questions of English identity and nationhood over economics or technocratic ease, but expecting the Irish to be amenable to a technocratic solution to the border question and simply accept the re-eraction of borders across their country.
Yes, that contradiction had passed me by. Fintan O'Toole really is one of the better writers around.
The contempt for Ireland and Irish concerns is one of the most striking and depressing characteristics of many Brexiteers.
Irish concerns are not equal to Uk concerns - if you are the Uk government - quite rightly.
They most certainly are if you are genuinely seeking to reach an agreement with them.
Disagree
They are important and valid, but an accommodation requires movement on both sides.
I have my doubts about this reported “readout” from the Merkel call this morning, but if true then no deal is possible so leaving without a deal is all that is left
Leaving with the WA is perfectly possible.
It has been made impossible because so many MPs have decided, for a variety of reasons that they don't want a deal with the EU.
Not if Merkel’s comments today have been reasonably represented, i.e. that NI cannot leave the CU
That means the backstop has not been negotiated in good faith - that the EU intends it to be permanent
I would never sign a deal based on good faith if that is in doubt
Labour's never been motivated by anything other than electoral self interest in this whole shebang so it's tough to criticise Johnson for steering the Tories there now (I think May was genuinely trying to put country before party - she was beasted for it)
Except for the part were Labour tried to resist moving to a referendum in all circumstances position and did vote for Brexit options and was then beasted for it.
This piece makes a number of good points. Most salient for me was pointing out the hypocrisy of Brexiteers prioritising questions of English identity and nationhood over economics or technocratic ease, but expecting the Irish to be amenable to a technocratic solution to the border question and simply accept the re-eraction of borders across their country.
Yes, that contradiction had passed me by. Fintan O'Toole really is one of the better writers around.
The contempt for Ireland and Irish concerns is one of the most striking and depressing characteristics of many Brexiteers.
Irish concerns are not equal to Uk concerns - if you are the Uk government - quite rightly.
They most certainly are if you are genuinely seeking to reach an agreement with them.
Disagree
They are important and valid, but an accommodation requires movement on both sides.
I have my doubts about this reported “readout” from the Merkel call this morning, but if true then no deal is possible so leaving without a deal is all that is left
Leaving with the WA is perfectly possible.
It has been made impossible because so many MPs have decided, for a variety of reasons that they don't want a deal with the EU.
Not if Merkel’s comments today have been reasonably represented, i.e. that NI cannot leave the CU
That means the backstop has not been negotiated in good faith - that the EU intends it to be permanent
I would never sign a deal based on good faith if that is in doubt
The ERGers were right. Depressingly. The backstop WAS a trap.
Journalists need to stop quoting anonymous No 10 sources uncritically.
The reason Merkel has said this is pretty clear. A) Integrity of the SM is important. She has lived behind a wall, separating families, communities and a nation. C) She defers to Ireland on this issue, rightly so. If the EU throws a small member under the bus, what is the point of it.
Maybe the answer is NI needs a border poll, but I bet more of the NI electorate agree with Merkel than Johnson. And if the idea is that that doesn't matter as long as the UK want to keep NI, that just feels like a colonial hangover.
Journalists need to stop quoting anonymous No 10 sources uncritically.
Is a journalists job to report?
So long as the source is made clear there is no problem in regurgitating a press release from any source.
This is an example of a Journalist doing the job
Far better than intertwining the views of the publication or journalist and trying to pass them off as something else. That is the job of a commentator.
When a source from No 10 says "The sky is made of custard" I think it would be responsible for a journalist to point out that that isn't true.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
Happy to support the disgraceful briefing from no 10 yesterday but now implode when Merkel states the obvious .
Brexit and NI are incompatible . Most voters couldn’t care less if NI stays in the CU anyway .
Only if Ireland is in the EU
An alternative solution would be Ireland leaves the EU and returns to unaligned status (with special arrangements for NI)
There are three end states (in the absence of the EU being willing to develop a fudge)
1. The UK’s sovereignty is compromised as it cannot leave the CU/SM in toto 2. RoI’s sovereignty is compromised as it cannot be part of the EU and have a special relationship with NI 3. There is a hard border
If Ireland left the EU it wouldn't solve the border problem unless Ireland also aligned its regulations and trade policy with the UK. You are falsely drawing an equivalence between London and Brussels.
Not intentionally - if Ireland was not in a customs union with the EU they could be more creative. The issue is onward transit
Journalists need to stop quoting anonymous No 10 sources uncritically.
The reason Merkel has said this is pretty clear. A) Integrity of the SM is important. She has lived behind a wall, separating families, communities and a nation. C) She defers to Ireland on this issue, rightly so. If the EU throws a small member under the bus, what is the point of it.
Maybe the answer is NI needs a border poll, but I bet more of the NI electorate agree with Merkel than Johnson. And if the idea is that that doesn't matter as long as the UK want to keep NI, that just feels like a colonial hangover.
NI isn't a colony it is a part of our country. Remarkable how many fools here seem to think NI is a part of Ireland and not a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
My position as stated above is "If it doesn't matter to the rest of UK (England) that NI may agree more with Merkel than Johnson, and would prefer a border poll over Johnson's Deal / No Deal, but the UK does not provide for a border poll, that is little more than a continuation of England's colonial view of Ireland as a whole"
I understand that NI is currently a consensual member of the Union, I'm just wondering at what point they no longer consent.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
You don’t know your Irish history do you?
Sounds like we should blame the Liberal Party then.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
It's a tired cliche that deserves to be rammed down the throats of the lying Brexiteers on the hour every hour.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
Remember when Gordon Brown said he had abolished boom and bust and it was thrown back in his face when it turned out to be bollocks?
That's what will happen to Gove if we get No Deal.
Sustained No Deal Brexit destroys the Brexit/Eurosceptic movement for a generation, poor Liam Fox is also going to get similar political manure poured over him as well.
If Boris crashes us out, travellers from the UK to the EU will need to:
• Visit GOV.UK for information regarding immigration requirements of the country they are travelling to if the reason for their visit is work or study, or if they intend to remain for longer than 90 in any 180-day period. • Check that their passport complies with the Schengen entry requirements using the online tool. Priority services are available for more urgent travel, at an additional fee. • Ensure that they have documentation required by immigration authorities, such as proof of sufficient funds for the duration of their stay or a return ticket. • Continue to buy comprehensive travel insurance, as UK-issued EHICs may no longer be valid depending on the country they are visiting. People with pre-existing medical conditions, which would have been covered by the EHIC, should discuss how this would affect travel plans and insurance cover with their GP and insurer. • Contact the relevant EU country’s authority to see if they need to start paying any social security contributions in that country. • If intending to drive in the EU, familiarise themselves with the information in the transport section of this chapter which details the documents that may be required. • Check the roaming policy of their mobile operator before travelling to the EU and EEA countries.
What a pain in the arse
"There may be new document requirements for drivers (both commercial and private), who plan on driving to, from or within the EU, to comply with. "
I mean, what the fuck does that mean? "May be"? Will there, yes or no? And if so, what? How to I apply? How long in advance? What happens if I don't? Christ, what a clusterfuck.
"UK driving licence holders who live in the EU, EEA or Switzerland should exchange their UK driving licence for a licence in the country where they live before 31 October 2019. Licence exchange arrangements may stop in some EU and EEA countries, if we leave without a deal, and UK licence holders may then have to retake their driving test in the EU or EEA country where they live."
Gifts: • If an individual receives a gift from outside the UK that is worth £39 or less, no import VAT is due. • To qualify as gifts, goods must be: described as gifts on the customs declaration; for a birthday, anniversary or other occasion; sent between private individuals (not companies); and intended for personal use.
So if my good friend who lives in Brussels sends me a nice box of chocolates, we need to -- what, work out the exchange rate on the day it was bought? Whom do I pay?
You will get a card from the post office saying duty to pay, just like I do when my M-I-L sends us gifts from the US
Is there a problem with the UK staying in the Customs Union and Single Market?
Yes its completely illogical, there is a reason not one other country is in both but not the EU, we may as well stay in the EU if we were to do that, we voted to leave.
Give me one good reason to leave the EU but stay in the customs union and single market please.
We protect our economy, which is closely integrated with the rest of the EU, but we leave the political structures, CAP and CFP. Leaving the CAP is particularly significant from the budget point of view.
Having left the political structures it would then be easier to gently disengage in the future, if the British people elected governments with that policy.
In terms of "getting Brexit done" it was the obvious compromise position that would have achieved that and prevented any economic shock - thus undercutting any impetus for a "Rejoin" campaign.
It is true that we would have left the political structures in that we would have had no say in the rules and regulations but we would have been forced to follow all rules and regulations of both the single market and customs union still.
By leaving the political structures we don't mean not having a say in the rules we are subject to, we mean writing our own rules.
Any company that wants to sell into the EU Single Market will have to abide by a large number of their rules - so the idea that we would have complete freedom to set our own rules is something of a myth.
I wasn't advocating the arrangement as a perfect end state. It clearly has its demerits (which is why I support EU membership in preference to it). However, you asked the question to provide "one good reason" and I think I provided more than one good reason in reply.
Any country that wants to export to foreign countries has to respect their laws for what they are exporting. That's not unique to Europe.
I asked for a good reason. Being out of political structures but still subject to SM and CU laws that come from those political structures isn't a good reason in my eyes.
Another way of looking at it. Can you name anyone whose preference is to leave the EU and stay in the CU and SM because they think it will be the best solution and not because it's the next best thing to EU membership.
Remainers here need to get a grip and see the EU for what it is. A racket.
Johnson apologists here need to get a grip and realise what a disaster the sexpest is for this country.
The last time he phoned one female member of my family on business (and she's five years OLDER than Mrs Merkel) he decided to sexually harrass her. Result: an entire household turned LD on the spot - and we'll probably finally finally kick his chums out of power here next year.
Everyone who's ever gone on record about their private dealings with the creep - from the Master of Balliol to Charlotte Edwards to Max Hastings - agrees he's an amoral liar. Just about every woman - apart from Petronella Wyatt - agrees he's also a sexual predator.
The overwhelming likelihood is he started his conversation with Mrs Merkel by asking her about her nickers. Because that's what he always does.
Now stop pretending this dirty schoolboy's a serious politician. He's not.
This a a betting site where percentages and probability are understood and dissected to come up with realistic outcomes, so I'm hoping some clever souls with maybe a medical background can help me make sense of some figures..... After breast cancer surgery, where there is no more evidence of cancer in the body, a woman has an 82% chance of surviving 10 years or more without any further treatment. Radiotherapy adds another 5% to that. Hormone treatment adds another 2% to that. Chemotherapy adds another 5% to that. What do these figures really show? The question is, knowing the risks and side effects of chemotherapy, would you decline or accept it in this instance?
When you say "Chemotherapy adds another 5% to that", do you mean "...adds another 5% to the 82%" or "...adds another 5% to the 82+5+2%"?
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
Remember when Gordon Brown said he had abolished boom and bust and it was thrown back in his face when it turned out to be bollocks?
That's what will happen to Gove if we get No Deal.
Sustained No Deal Brexit destroys the Brexit/Eurosceptic movement for a generation, poor Liam Fox is also going to get similar political manure poured over him as well.
I think it’ll happen more to Boris and the ERGers.
This piece makes a number of good points. Most salient for me was pointing out the hypocrisy of Brexiteers prioritising questions of English identity and nationhood over economics or technocratic ease, but expecting the Irish to be amenable to a technocratic solution to the border question and simply accept the re-eraction of borders across their country.
Yes, that contradiction had passed me by. Fintan O'Toole really is one of the better writers around.
The contempt for Ireland and Irish concerns is one of the most striking and depressing characteristics of many Brexiteers.
Irish concerns are not equal to Uk concerns - if you are the Uk government - quite rightly.
They most certainly are if you are genuinely seeking to reach an agreement with them.
Disagree
They are important and valid, but an accommodation requires movement on both sides.
I have my doubts about this reported “readout” from the Merkel call this morning, but if true then no deal is possible so leaving without a deal is all that is left
Leaving with the WA is perfectly possible.
It has been made impossible because so many MPs have decided, for a variety of reasons that they don't want a deal with the EU.
Not if Merkel’s comments today have been reasonably represented, i.e. that NI cannot leave the CU
That means the backstop has not been negotiated in good faith - that the EU intends it to be permanent
I would never sign a deal based on good faith if that is in doubt
The ERGers were right. Depressingly. The backstop WAS a trap.
Boris asks for a repeal of the Benn Act in light of new information
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
It's a tired cliche that deserves to be rammed down the throats of the lying Brexiteers on the hour every hour.
None of us would be any poorer for the lack of your continued presence on this site.
(i) NI can NEVER leave the SM and the CU! Das ist verboten!
(ii) A deal by 31 Oct without the full NI backstop is now impossible.
The first is incredibly blunt, wrong, short-sighted and provocative. The second is a firm restatement of the existing EU position and is furthermore a statement of the blindingly obvious.
Now then, without access to the tape we cannot know for sure which it is.
What we can say, however, is that one must be exceedingly gullible to think that (i) is more likely than (ii). Gullible or, possibly, keen for other reasons to embrace a jingoistic 'us v them' narrative at this point.
I note with concern but not enormous surprise that plenty of our PB Leavers are swallowing it or pretending to.
Given that PB Leavers are at the LESS gullible and nationalistic end of the Leave spectrum - oh yes! - this just reinforces my fear that if Johnson gets his 2019 GE and runs on the planned National Populist ticket, he will indeed in all probability achieve a majority, and perhaps a large one.
It is only the big doubt in my mind over whether he WILL get that GE that is stopping me from right now buying Con seats at 312 in SIZE.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
This a a betting site where percentages and probability are understood and dissected to come up with realistic outcomes, so I'm hoping some clever souls with maybe a medical background can help me make sense of some figures..... After breast cancer surgery, where there is no more evidence of cancer in the body, a woman has an 82% chance of surviving 10 years or more without any further treatment. Radiotherapy adds another 5% to that. Hormone treatment adds another 2% to that. Chemotherapy adds another 5% to that. What do these figures really show? The question is, knowing the risks and side effects of chemotherapy, would you decline or accept it in this instance?
When you say "Chemotherapy adds another 5% to that", do you mean "...adds another 5% to the 82%" or "...adds another 5% to the 82+5+2%"?
Discussed very early in the thread. Have a look back. A lot of people who know their stats helped our friend TFS who is understandably worried.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
You don’t know your Irish history do you?
Sounds like we should blame the Liberal Party then.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
And as a consequence of fighting on another front the British would have been on the losing side in WWI. No way Dominion troops could have been used in Ireland.
Is there a problem with the UK staying in the Customs Union and Single Market?
Yes its completely illogical, there is a reason not one other country is in both but not the EU, we may as well stay in the EU if we were to do that, we voted to leave.
Give me one good reason to leave the EU but stay in the customs union and single market please.
We protect our economy, which is closely integrated with the rest of the EU, but we leave the political structures, CAP and CFP. Leaving the CAP is particularly significant from the budget point of view.
Having left the political structures it would then be easier to gently disengage in the future, if the British people elected governments with that policy.
In terms of "getting Brexit done" it was the obvious compromise position that would have achieved that and prevented any economic shock - thus undercutting any impetus for a "Rejoin" campaign.
It is true that we would have left the political structures in that we would have had no say in the rules and regulations but we would have been forced to follow all rules and regulations of both the single market and customs union still.
By leaving the political structures we don't mean not having a say in the rules we are subject to, we mean writing our own rules.
Any company that wants to sell into the EU Single Market will have to abide by a large number of their rules - so the idea that we would have complete freedom to set our own rules is something of a myth.
I wasn't advocating the arrangement as a perfect end state. It clearly has its demerits (which is why I support EU membership in preference to it). However, you asked the question to provide "one good reason" and I think I provided more than one good reason in reply.
Any country that wants to export to foreign countries has to respect their laws for what they are exporting. That's not unique to Europe.
I asked for a good reason. Being out of political structures but still subject to SM and CU laws that come from those political structures isn't a good reason in my eyes.
Another way of looking at it. Can you name anyone whose preference is to leave the EU and stay in the CU and SM because they think it will be the best solution and not because it's the next best thing to EU membership.
You ignored the rest of my post once you found the first thing you could disagree with. How boring.
I can't work out the meaning of Merkel's phone call.
Either the German want No Deal, or they want an actual war. It is one or the other.
Perhaps we should wait until it's confirmed what she actually said ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49970267 The BBC's Brussels correspondent, Adam Fleming, said the German chancellery had not released their interpretation of the call, and it would be important to "compare and contrast". But he said an EU official close to the negotiations in Brussels had told him Mrs Merkel's reported comments did not reflect the EU's agreed position, adding: "This is not our language."....
Obviously no. 10 are spinning things. The exact language not being used is probably true. But does anyone actually dispute the substantive point is likely to be true?
The EU have said 'lets talk' for a year but also made clear no major change is possible, so it's likely true Merkel was not so blunt, but the effective point was correct.
So yes this is about assigning blame, and I dont want no deal regardless. But the EU position of pretending to talk rather than giving us a hard deadline take it or leave it is completely disingenuous.
Journalists need to stop quoting anonymous No 10 sources uncritically.
The reason Merkel has said this is pretty clear. A) Integrity of the SM is important. She has lived behind a wall, separating families, communities and a nation. C) She defers to Ireland on this issue, rightly so. If the EU throws a small member under the bus, what is the point of it.
Maybe the answer is NI needs a border poll, but I bet more of the NI electorate agree with Merkel than Johnson. And if the idea is that that doesn't matter as long as the UK want to keep NI, that just feels like a colonial hangover.
NI isn't a colony it is a part of our country. Remarkable how many fools here seem to think NI is a part of Ireland and not a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
My position as stated above is "If it doesn't matter to the rest of UK (England) that NI may agree more with Merkel than Johnson, and would prefer a border poll over Johnson's Deal / No Deal, but the UK does not provide for a border poll, that is little more than a continuation of England's colonial view of Ireland as a whole"
I understand that NI is currently a consensual member of the Union, I'm just wondering at what point they no longer consent.
Its not either/or. There will be a border poll if and when the voters of NI want one, no sooner. Even Sinn Fein haven't really called for one let alone Varadkar so its not colonialialism to not have one yet.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
You don’t know your Irish history do you?
Sounds like we should blame the Liberal Party then.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The UVF had the backing of some at least of the British Army.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
Funny how so many die hard Remainers are egging on Scotland to break away from the UK because of Brexit and stay in the EU but believe Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to break away from the rest of Ireland to stay with the UK
This a a betting site where percentages and probability are understood and dissected to come up with realistic outcomes, so I'm hoping some clever souls with maybe a medical background can help me make sense of some figures..... After breast cancer surgery, where there is no more evidence of cancer in the body, a woman has an 82% chance of surviving 10 years or more without any further treatment. Radiotherapy adds another 5% to that. Hormone treatment adds another 2% to that. Chemotherapy adds another 5% to that.
The question is, knowing the risks and side effects of chemotherapy, would you decline or accept it in this instance?
Firstly, are you talking about five percent or five percentage points? E.g. if there's a 20% chance of something, adding 5% makes it 21%, but adding 5 percentage points makes it 25%
Thanks for that and understood. I hope Mrs W is on the up. These figures are for my wife, with the relevant factors thrown in. The consultant had a handy little app where it's spat the figures out. The lymph nodes were the deciding factor. I'm just trying to make a bit of sense of the figures.
MrsW very much on the up thanks. The app is probably the predict.nhs.uk tool. It is very good. We have some of the best longitudinal cancer data in the world, and many of the models are based upon UK data. There is a second useful predictor site, http://www.lifemath.net/cancer/breastcancer/therapy/ which we also found useful.
MrsW (who is a GP so well understands the clinical context) found chemo grim - but it is much more bearable after the first cycle when you know what to expect, duration of symptoms, etc. It is a personal decision - but our/her experience is that the side-effects are marginal compared to the benefit of additional survivability.
Best wishes to you and your wife.
It is very much a personal decision. Having reached the age of 65 some 3 months ago, I have already arrived at a firm decision not to proceed with chemotherapy should it ever be offered to me. Currently I appear to be in reasonable physical health - and am conscious that I have now reached what was the the normal male UK life expectancy as late as 1956. Were I a younger person, I would possibly take a different view.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The UVF had the backing of some at least of the British Army.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
And as a consequence of fighting on another front the British would have been on the losing side in WWI. No way Dominion troops could have been used in Ireland.
I doubt it, especially once the USA joined the Allies
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The Irish Civil War
It was won by the Free State with the support of the U.K. I suspect the U.K. would have supported Ulster
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
And as a consequence of fighting on another front the British would have been on the losing side in WWI. No way Dominion troops could have been used in Ireland.
Selmayer was reported to have said the "price" for Brexit must be the annexation of Northern Ireland and at the time most people on here said he was not talking for the EU or Germany...
But now it seems he was speaking for Merkel herself.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
You don’t know your Irish history do you?
Sounds like we should blame the Liberal Party then.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The Irish Civil War
It was won by the Free State with the support of the U.K. I suspect the U.K. would have supported Ulster
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
It's a tired cliche that deserves to be rammed down the throats of the lying Brexiteers on the hour every hour.
None of us would be any poorer for the lack of your continued presence on this site.
Maybe you should go and set up your own PB where you can approve membership for thise who agree with you.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
It's a tired cliche that deserves to be rammed down the throats of the lying Brexiteers on the hour every hour.
None of us would be any poorer for the lack of your continued presence on this site.
Face up to your wrongdoing. Redemption is within reach. A special place in hell is not inevitable.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The UVF had the backing of some at least of the British Army.
It’s worth making clear that the UVF of the period was not the same as the loyalist terrorists that adopted its name in the 1970s
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The Irish Civil War
It was won by the Free State with the support of the U.K. I suspect the U.K. would have supported Ulster
Free State Army was SF/IRA in large part.
No, Sinn Fein and the IRA were fighting with De Valera and the anti Treaty forces against the pro Treaty forces of the Free State headed by Michael Collins
I agree with him on Boris, but he is also playing a stupid blame game and is a liar if he pretends otherwise.
Nearly everyone on every side has claimed no deal is not what they want but then say option x or y is too much for them to do, proving they are content with no deal even if it is not their preferred option.
So getting on a high horse is just part of the blame game, and they are all hypocrites.
Selmayer was reported to have said the "price" for Brexit must be the annexation of Northern Ireland and at the time most people on here said he was not talking for the EU or Germany...
But now it seems he was speaking for Merkel herself.
Well Merkel does need somewhere to put all the migrants no one else wants
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The Irish Civil War
It was won by the Free State with the support of the U.K. I suspect the U.K. would have supported Ulster
Free State Army was SF/IRA in large part.
It was Michael Collins, the National Army and the UK
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
It's a tired cliche that deserves to be rammed down the throats of the lying Brexiteers on the hour every hour.
None of us would be any poorer for the lack of your continued presence on this site.
Face up to your wrongdoing. Redemption is within reach. A special place in hell is not inevitable.
The thought of having to share it with you might give pause for thought....
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The Irish Civil War
It was won by the Free State with the support of the U.K. I suspect the U.K. would have supported Ulster
Free State Army was SF/IRA in large part.
It was Michael Collins, the National Army and the UK
The National Army was formed from the pro-Treaty faction of the IRA. There were no UK forces involved in the Irish Civil War although we did provide matériel to the Free State forces.
Hard to sort UK-wheat from eurochaff, but it seems like the original account is largely true. How do they know Germans weren't recording it?
If it was a lie, Berlin could release the tape and Boris looks like a perverted chump with a mendacity issue.
So, Merkel said it. Or something v close to it. Is my guess.
Normally conversations aren’t released . Otherwise it would be impossible for leaders around the world to have frank conversations. Of course Johnson can release it if he wants but then the EU might then also release some which might not show him in a good light .
I expect we’ll never know what was truly said , as breaking with a convention could open up a Pandora’s box of problems .
I’m assuming she voted for the PMs agreement with the EU after making those statements to get elected?
That was nearly three years ago. People are entitled to change their minds.
I don’t believe she has changed her mind, I think she was lying then.
In any case, people standing for election doing an about turn on the issue that dominated politics for the last 4 years is not inconsequential, and shouldn’t be dismissed so readily with ‘that was nearly three years ago’ even if she was not lying.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Hard to sort UK-wheat from eurochaff, but it seems like the original account is largely true. How do they know Germans weren't recording it?
If it was a lie, Berlin could release the tape and Boris looks like a perverted chump with a mendacity issue.
So, Merkel said it. Or something v close to it. Is my guess.
Normally conversations aren’t released . Otherwise it would be impossible for leaders around the world to have frank conversations. Of course Johnson can release it if he wants but then the EU might then also release some which might not show him in a good light .
I expect we’ll never know what was truly said , as breaking with a convention could open up a Pandora’s box of problems .
We all know what was said.
If the EU thinks a deal can be done with NI not in the CU they can easily say so now and put this to bed.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
Funny how so many die hard Remainers are egging on Scotland to break away from the UK because of Brexit and stay in the EU but believe Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to break away from the rest of Ireland to stay with the UK
Funny how many people think the Eiffel Tower is in Paris, yet when you go to supermarket you can find both bread AND cauliflowers for sale. Makes you think.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
It's a tired cliche that deserves to be rammed down the throats of the lying Brexiteers on the hour every hour.
None of us would be any poorer for the lack of your continued presence on this site.
Disagree. That's your own view – it's not universally shared.
"There may be new document requirements for drivers (both commercial and private), who plan on driving to, from or within the EU, to comply with. "
I mean, what the fuck does that mean? "May be"? Will there, yes or no? And if so, what? How to I apply? How long in advance? What happens if I don't? Christ, what a clusterfuck.
"UK driving licence holders who live in the EU, EEA or Switzerland should exchange their UK driving licence for a licence in the country where they live before 31 October 2019. Licence exchange arrangements may stop in some EU and EEA countries, if we leave without a deal, and UK licence holders may then have to retake their driving test in the EU or EEA country where they live."
Gifts: • If an individual receives a gift from outside the UK that is worth £39 or less, no import VAT is due. • To qualify as gifts, goods must be: described as gifts on the customs declaration; for a birthday, anniversary or other occasion; sent between private individuals (not companies); and intended for personal use.
So if my good friend who lives in Brussels sends me a nice box of chocolates, we need to -- what, work out the exchange rate on the day it was bought? Whom do I pay?
You will get a card from the post office saying duty to pay, just like I do when my M-I-L sends us gifts from the US
Do EU citizens living in the UK have to pay duty on gifts they receive from their friends and relations in the EU?
I’m assuming she voted for the PMs agreement with the EU after making those statements to get elected?
That was nearly three years ago. People are entitled to change their minds.
I don’t believe she has changed her mind, I think she was lying then.
The logic of many on why they seek remain or revoke does not make sense unless it was always the goal, as the reasoning always applied.
As someone who has switched from leave to remain because of how things have developed I have little sympathy with those whose logic suggests they could never back leave yet claim they were willing to as the claims of changing their minds are not credible for the reasons given by many (campaign lies, best deal is one we have, etc).
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
And all this drama would have been for nothing as we'd still be subject to all the EU rules we voted to leave. Ludicrous.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The Irish Civil War
It was won by the Free State with the support of the U.K. I suspect the U.K. would have supported Ulster
Free State Army was SF/IRA in large part.
It was Michael Collins, the National Army and the UK
The National Army was formed from the pro-Treaty faction of the IRA. There were no UK forces involved in the Irish Civil War although we did provide matériel to the Free State forces.
Yes - I could have been clearer about UK involvement. But this is all irrelevant to the point: the UVF was mobilised, armed, had money and an airforce larger than the IFS.
It would have also likely had U.K. support - or at least the IFS would not have had.
Journalists need to stop quoting anonymous No 10 sources uncritically.
The reason Merkel has said this is pretty clear. A) Integrity of the SM is important. She has lived behind a wall, separating families, communities and a nation. C) She defers to Ireland on this issue, rightly so. If the EU throws a small member under the bus, what is the point of it.
Maybe the answer is NI needs a border poll, but I bet more of the NI electorate agree with Merkel than Johnson. And if the idea is that that doesn't matter as long as the UK want to keep NI, that just feels like a colonial hangover.
Journalists need to stop quoting anonymous No 10 sources uncritically.
Is a journalists job to report?
So long as the source is made clear there is no problem in regurgitating a press release from any source.
This is an example of a Journalist doing the job
Far better than intertwining the views of the publication or journalist and trying to pass them off as something else. That is the job of a commentator.
Unfortunately your stance creates a problem. If the job of a reporter is to merely report the speech of a person then they become less useful, since that person will just speak the facts as they see them or lies that they wish to be true. That is how we got Carl Beech and the lives of so many men ruined. It also prioritises the speech of the rich, which is how we got Harvey Weinstein and the lives of so many women ruined. A reporter may simply report, but an investigative journalist must weigh competing sources and deduce the truth. Unfortunately, what we get instead is the commentariat, who deduce nothing and spin everything.
So although I understand your point, I must politely disagree.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
It's a tired cliche that deserves to be rammed down the throats of the lying Brexiteers on the hour every hour.
None of us would be any poorer for the lack of your continued presence on this site.
Disagree. That's your own view – it's not universally shared.
If you don’t share it you need your head examined.
He’s a dickhead. And his posts are dickish.
Just because you agree with his politics shouldn’t make you blind to seeing this.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
No, that would render Brexit pointless.
I preferred May’s Deal where we left 80% of the SM and we had a plan to retain customs arrangements in the long term on key goods and agriculture only.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
It's a tired cliche that deserves to be rammed down the throats of the lying Brexiteers on the hour every hour.
None of us would be any poorer for the lack of your continued presence on this site.
Maybe you should go and set up your own PB where you can approve membership for thise who agree with you.
I’m happy with many posters on here who vehemently disagree with me. It’s those whose posts add precisely nothing to the site that I think should think again.
"There may be new document requirements for drivers (both commercial and private), who plan on driving to, from or within the EU, to comply with. "
I mean, what the fuck does that mean? "May be"? Will there, yes or no? And if so, what? How to I apply? How long in advance? What happens if I don't? Christ, what a clusterfuck.
"UK driving licence holders who live in the EU, EEA or Switzerland should exchange their UK driving licence for a licence in the country where they live before 31 October 2019. Licence exchange arrangements may stop in some EU and EEA countries, if we leave without a deal, and UK licence holders may then have to retake their driving test in the EU or EEA country where they live."
Gifts: • If an individual receives a gift from outside the UK that is worth £39 or less, no import VAT is due. • To qualify as gifts, goods must be: described as gifts on the customs declaration; for a birthday, anniversary or other occasion; sent between private individuals (not companies); and intended for personal use.
So if my good friend who lives in Brussels sends me a nice box of chocolates, we need to -- what, work out the exchange rate on the day it was bought? Whom do I pay?
You will get a card from the post office saying duty to pay, just like I do when my M-I-L sends us gifts from the US
Do EU citizens living in the UK have to pay duty on gifts they receive from their friends and relations in the EU?
Not at the moment but in future
(Of course the value is self declared and it’s always under $40)
Brexit was won narrowly, so we should probably narrowly leave. Anyway that is (seemingly for now; it may return) out the window. So hard leave or hard remain it is..
Irish there calling for regime change to get their way
Or a change of heart from the current regime. But carry on, please do try to distil as much outrage as you can from this, it's doing us all so much good.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Except that the EU refused to bend on the 4 Freedoms.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
This is rubbish. 1. The Germans have not denied it - amazingly 2, the EU is trying to distance themselves from what she said, 3, you don't have to overspin this phone call, even if just 20% of it is true it is beyond explosive
It essentially gives the lie to the position that the UK was "always sovereign within the EU", Because Merkel is saying, perhaps correctly, that the price of leaving HAS to be ceding control of one of the UK's constituent nations, and letting the EU govern NI as a trading colony (without the NI locals having a vote)
It is economic annexation, without representation.
It may be a cold statement of the facts, but it is fucking ridiculously provocative. Stupid woman. What is her game?!
. Bollocks. Northern Ireland should never have been allowed to be separated from the rest of Ireland as was laid down in the 1912 act. It was only the UK government giving in to the Curragh mutineers that led to the current set up
And you accuse Leavers of living in the past. FFS.
If Ireland hadn't been partitioned, we wouldn't need to worry about any Backstop.
The probability is that the UVF would have won the three way civil war and entrenched their dominance across the entire island
Doubt it given that SF won 73 of the 105 Irish seats in 1918.
The Irish Civil War
It was won by the Free State with the support of the U.K. I suspect the U.K. would have supported Ulster
Free State Army was SF/IRA in large part.
No, Sinn Fein and the IRA were fighting with De Valera and the anti Treaty forces against the pro Treaty forces of the Free State headed by Michael Collins
The Treaty caused a split in the IRA. The Civil War was an SF/IRA civil war.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
No, that would render Brexit pointless.
I preferred May’s Deal where we left 80% of the SM and we had a plan to retain customs arrangements in the long term on key goods and agriculture only.
I would have supported what you described but that's not May's Deal. The backstop didn't leave us leaving 80% of the SM and customs arrangements on key goods and agriculture only. The backstop was an attempted annexation and subjugation as I said all along and the truth is now public. The backstop was never good faith and we were right to reject it.
Comments
Threats to not cooperate on security with the EU were unacceptable to him .
The Daily Record reports Eve Bolander submitted receipts totalling more than £8,000 over a 28-month period.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-49971577
They're currently in a layby somewhere in Belgum, sleeping off the hangover.
That means the backstop has not been negotiated in good faith - that the EU intends it to be permanent
I would never sign a deal based on good faith if that is in doubt
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
I understand that NI is currently a consensual member of the Union, I'm just wondering at what point they no longer consent.
That's what will happen to Gove if we get No Deal.
Sustained No Deal Brexit destroys the Brexit/Eurosceptic movement for a generation, poor Liam Fox is also going to get similar political manure poured over him as well.
I asked for a good reason. Being out of political structures but still subject to SM and CU laws that come from those political structures isn't a good reason in my eyes.
Another way of looking at it. Can you name anyone whose preference is to leave the EU and stay in the CU and SM because they think it will be the best solution and not because it's the next best thing to EU membership.
You know I don’t think No Deal is a good idea.
https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/1180161105999601664
(i) NI can NEVER leave the SM and the CU! Das ist verboten!
(ii) A deal by 31 Oct without the full NI backstop is now impossible.
The first is incredibly blunt, wrong, short-sighted and provocative. The second is a firm restatement of the existing EU position and is furthermore a statement of the blindingly obvious.
Now then, without access to the tape we cannot know for sure which it is.
What we can say, however, is that one must be exceedingly gullible to think that (i) is more likely than (ii). Gullible or, possibly, keen for other reasons to embrace a jingoistic 'us v them' narrative at this point.
I note with concern but not enormous surprise that plenty of our PB Leavers are swallowing it or pretending to.
Given that PB Leavers are at the LESS gullible and nationalistic end of the Leave spectrum - oh yes! - this just reinforces my fear that if Johnson gets his 2019 GE and runs on the planned National Populist ticket, he will indeed in all probability achieve a majority, and perhaps a large one.
It is only the big doubt in my mind over whether he WILL get that GE that is stopping me from right now buying Con seats at 312 in SIZE.
The idea that the EU disliked the backstop but couldn't possibly compromise was absolutely absurd!
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1181529122650165248
Presumably there is someone in Downing St. taking notes of what is being said?
If so maybe Downing St. will release the full transcript later.
The EU have said 'lets talk' for a year but also made clear no major change is possible, so it's likely true Merkel was not so blunt, but the effective point was correct.
So yes this is about assigning blame, and I dont want no deal regardless. But the EU position of pretending to talk rather than giving us a hard deadline take it or leave it is completely disingenuous.
Come on, work with me here..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49963689
It was won by the Free State with the support of the U.K. I suspect the U.K. would have supported Ulster
But now it seems he was speaking for Merkel herself.
My family was burnt out of Connemara
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1181534229622120453?s=20
Hard to sort UK-wheat from eurochaff, but it seems like the original account is largely true. How do they know Germans weren't recording it?
If it was a lie, Berlin could release the tape and Boris looks like a perverted chump with a mendacity issue.
So, Merkel said it. Or something v close to it. Is my guess.
Nearly everyone on every side has claimed no deal is not what they want but then say option x or y is too much for them to do, proving they are content with no deal even if it is not their preferred option.
So getting on a high horse is just part of the blame game, and they are all hypocrites.
forces involved in the Irish Civil War although we did provide matériel to the Free State forces.
I expect we’ll never know what was truly said , as breaking with a convention could open up a Pandora’s box of problems .
In any case, people standing for election doing an about turn on the issue that dominated politics for the last 4 years is not inconsequential, and shouldn’t be dismissed so readily with ‘that was nearly three years ago’ even if she was not lying.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1181534555834142720
If the EU thinks a deal can be done with NI not in the CU they can easily say so now and put this to bed.
Do EU citizens living in the UK have to pay duty on gifts they receive from their friends and relations in the EU?
As someone who has switched from leave to remain because of how things have developed I have little sympathy with those whose logic suggests they could never back leave yet claim they were willing to as the claims of changing their minds are not credible for the reasons given by many (campaign lies, best deal is one we have, etc).
Irish there calling for regime change to get their way
If there was a strong Tory Government with a big majority then a Deal along Boris’s lines would already be being done.
It would have also likely had U.K. support - or at least the IFS would not have had.
So although I understand your point, I must politely disagree.
He’s a dickhead. And his posts are dickish.
Just because you agree with his politics shouldn’t make you blind to seeing this.
Where we should have ended up at multiple points since the days of Major is with some kind of affiliate status.
A generation of politicians have failed us
I preferred May’s Deal where we left 80% of the SM and we had a plan to retain customs arrangements in the long term on key goods and agriculture only.
Not at the moment but in future
(Of course the value is self declared and it’s always under $40)
So hard leave or hard remain it is..