Am I missing something here? Why are people (pretending to be) outraged by Merkel saying Northern Ireland has to remain in the customs union in order for there to be a deal? Whether you agree with it or not, that's been their position for years.
In which case why are people angry at boris claiming she said it?
Confected outrage from no.10 and in response - the actual substance of the discussion seems barely to concern, just how it is being spun about precise wording.
And as we know at PB pedantry.com, when the argument and anger is over precise wording, its probably trivial or bollocks.
Well, yes, I'm confused by people insisting No.10's line is all lies as well (admittedly, Johnson and his handlers are serial liars, but even a broken clock....).
I just don't understand why people are acting like it's some brand new development for someone in the EU to say the price of a deal is NI staying in the customs union. They think that any kind of border between the North and Republic of Ireland would be a big hassle. And they also think that, even if Britain leaves with No Deal, we would become so quickly sick of all the chaos that we'd come crawling back to the negotiating table, in which case they'd insist on the backstop at that point in exchange for all the 'mini-deals'.
They may be right or wrong in their beliefs and assumptions, but none of this is new.
The brown stuff has hit the fan this morning hasn't it?
As an aside, what is the opposition doing about it? Whether you agree with 'No Deal' or not, they allegedly don't. I presume they've laid down a VoNC therefore?
Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
There is nothing that Merkel can say that will convince those who want the Cummings briefing to be true that it is not true. So there is really no point in engaging.
It is vanishingly unlikely to be true that she stated baldly that NI could never leave the CU.
"No exit deal by 31 Oct without the backstop," is what she almost certainly said.
To then produce the number 10 spin, you just assume the backstop is perpetual, since it has no end date, et voila.
Mission accomplished. Softhead outrage train is rolling!
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
I don’t. However by refusing to recognise the special status of NI, as confirmed by both the Anglo- Irish Agreement and the GFA, you do. Have you read the GFA BTW? I have. Shortly before it was signed, during the first IRA ceasefire, I was lucky enough to meet John Hume when he gave a talk at my university - he said that the best chance for peace in Ireland was the abolition of the border in an EU context. He was right. As a result I saw this coming. You didn’t.
You shouldn’t comment on Irish affairs given yesterday you suggested Ireland “was not a country” before 1922, despite it being recognised even then as a separate jurisdiction, even by the U.K. I guess you would equally say that neither England nor Scotland are countries today? The ignorance of you and your fellow travellers is breathtaking. This mess is all of your failing to understand how important this issue is across the island of Ireland and your failure to make provision so as to preserve your myth of “sovereignty”.
The brown stuff has hit the fan this morning hasn't it?
As an aside, what is the opposition doing about it? Whether you agree with 'No Deal' or not, they allegedly don't. I presume they've laid down a VoNC therefore?
That's probably clever politics from them. Boris wants to look like the nice, reasonable chap who did his best but was rebuffed. If they can instead attribute the collapse of the negotiations to his intransigence and bellicosity, then No Deal and its ramifications will hang about Boris's neck like an albatross. Nigel would prefer surrender from Boris, but failing that a disastrous No Deal with Boris as its architect would suffice.
Explain to me how Farage prospers from "a disastrous No Deal"?
I would prefer it if it's not true! I would be delighted to see a Merkel spokesperson say the opposite but we are still waiting. I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I was you.
Why would they waste the steam of their piss getting involved in a slanging match with a government that has clearly decided to use them to whip up a mob?
If it was a misunderstanding it should be possible to clear it up, if it was a lie then it would be possible to deny it.
If it's the truth then the backstop was never in good faith and I told you so.
There is nothing that Merkel can say that will convince those who want the Cummings briefing to be true that it is not true. So there is really no point in engaging.
Don't be absurd. Merkel could just declaim "This is not true, we do not recognise", etc. There is no law preventing her doing this, it would stop 99% of speculation, apart from the most impenetrable Leavers.
And yet.... she hasn't denied it. Not a peep. One can only conclude that she did say it, or something close, and she probably said it for a reason. To focus minds (job done) and to avoid blame (job very much not done). She has also set off a firestorm which she probably did not predict.
She is a formidable but fallible politician, who is now in decline. An earlier, more adroit Merkel would not have done this. She's not been the same since the migrant crisis, and is now way past her sell by, unfortunately for Europe (UK included).
That's probably clever politics from them. Boris wants to look like the nice, reasonable chap who did his best but was rebuffed. If they can instead attribute the collapse of the negotiations to his intransigence and bellicosity, then No Deal and its ramifications will hang about Boris's neck like an albatross. Nigel would prefer surrender from Boris, but failing that a disastrous No Deal with Boris as its architect would suffice.
Given BJ's recent comments about girls blouses's and girly swot's does it do BJ any good showing a picture of a woman dominering him and saying No!? Just saying!
We are seeing the General Election grid play out. Clearly thIs part of the campaign was to shift blame onto the EU. You would admire the cynicism, if it wasn’t so damaging.
We are seeing the General Election grid play out. Clearly thIs part of the campaign was to shift blame onto the EU. You would admire the cynicism, if it wasn’t so damaging.
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
I don’t. However by refusing to recognise the special status of NI, as confirmed by both the Anglo- Irish Agreement and the GFA, you do. Have you read the GFA BTW? I have. Shortly before it was signed, during the first IRA ceasefire, I was lucky enough to meet John Hume when he gave a talk at my university - he said that the best chance for peace in Ireland was the abolition of the border in an EU context. He was right. As a result I saw this coming. You didn’t.
You shouldn’t comment on Irish affairs given yesterday you suggested Ireland “was not a country” before 1922, despite it being recognised even then as a separate jurisdiction, even by the U.K. I guess you would equally say that neither England nor Scotland are countries today? The ignorance of you and your fellow travellers is breathtaking. This mess is all of your failing to understand how important this issue is across the island of Ireland and your failure to make provision so as to preserve your myth of “sovereignty”.
That's not what I said. I said that it was not an independent sovereign country. Nor is Scotland.
Am I missing something here? Why are people (pretending to be) outraged by Merkel saying Northern Ireland has to remain in the customs union in order for there to be a deal? Whether you agree with it or not, that's been their position for years.
Well, it wasn't, but no hard border did demand either a pretty close end point relationship or a fully functioning remote border regime and a full roadmap, viable at all points, from a to b. Boris's proposal is not a close endpoint, has a brief sketch of the eventual border regime, and has ripped the roadmap to shreds.
Merkel's assertion that we don't set NI off down the road at all until the endpoint is delivered to us, in context, follows logically from Boris's red lines.
If she said "you've got rid of the backstop you mopheaded cockwomble, of course (NI will have to stay in the CU) until the FTA and border regime are sorted - pillock", the gist of which is quite likely, it would almost be better. The context under which NI would have to stay in the CU is key, and let's not take No. 10 on trust for that context.
Well, yes, I'm confused by people insisting No.10's line is all lies as well (admittedly, Johnson and his handlers are serial liars, but even a broken clock....).
I just don't understand why people are acting like it's some brand new development for someone in the EU to say the price of a deal is NI staying in the customs union. They think that any kind of border between the North and Republic of Ireland would be a big hassle. And they also think that, even if Britain leaves with No Deal, we would become so quickly sick of all the chaos that we'd come crawling back to the negotiating table, in which case they'd insist on the backstop at that point in exchange for all the 'mini-deals'.
They may be right or wrong in their beliefs and assumptions, but none of this is new.
The backstop has no end date but it is agreed that it will not be forever. A statement from Merkel that "NI can NEVER leave the CU" would blow that up. Hence why she did not say it. She merely stated the EU position of no exit Deal by 31 Oct without the backstop. And the spammers on the Johnson team did the rest.
I am incredibly disappointed with the EU this morning. I have a lot of problems with Boris, but at least he came up with new proposals that split the difference: NI in the EEA but outside the CU. Perhaps that is not enough but it is a genuine movement.
Merkel has just refused to compromise at all. It is this "our way or the high way" approach that caused Brexit in the first place, with the weak response to Cameron's renegotiation. I would love it if the British were flat-out pro-Europeans like the Germans, but we are not. Yet the EU refuses to accept that. They constabtly react to British reservations as if we are naughty school children and it just pisses people off and inflames the situation.
I have never been so pessimistic about Britain's future in Europe.
If they disagree with the words and tone it doesnt matter because thats just spin. Do they accept the premise was correct? The rest is, well, their part of the blame game and is only slightly less pathetic than Boris' posturing.
We are seeing the General Election grid play out. Clearly thIs part of the campaign was to shift blame onto the EU. You would admire the cynicism, if it wasn’t so damaging.
The EU's previous comments are all there in black and white ready to be wheeled out at the GE.
They have made it very easy for them to be painted as acting in bad faith.
Am I missing something here? Why are people (pretending to be) outraged by Merkel saying Northern Ireland has to remain in the customs union in order for there to be a deal? Whether you agree with it or not, that's been their position for years.
In which case why are people angry at boris claiming she said it?
Confected outrage from no.10 and in response - the actual substance of the discussion seems barely to concern, just how it is being spun about precise wording.
And as we know at PB pedantry.com, when the argument and anger is over precise wording, its probably trivial or bollocks.
Well, yes, I'm confused by people insisting No.10's line is all lies as well (admittedly, Johnson and his handlers are serial liars, but even a broken clock....).
I just don't understand why people are acting like it's some brand new development for someone in the EU to say the price of a deal is NI staying in the customs union. They think that any kind of border between the North and Republic of Ireland would be a big hassle. And they also think that, even if Britain leaves with No Deal, we would become so quickly sick of all the chaos that we'd come crawling back to the negotiating table, in which case they'd insist on the backstop at that point in exchange for all the 'mini-deals'.
They may be right or wrong in their beliefs and assumptions, but none of this is new.
Paragraphs 49 and 50 of the December 2017 Joint Report.
The reason for the confected outrage in response is that it is the blame game for No Deal. It's all to frame that as being the result of EU intransigence and imperialism.
And then you have people who reflexively view anything said by this government to be complete cobblers.
Meanwhile, lost in the noise, the Northern Ireland dairy farmers were clear that 25% tariffs on their exports to the Republic would mean mass culling of cattle in Northern Ireland, as their industry was destroyed on the altar of Boris Johnson's political ambitions.
We are seeing the General Election grid play out. Clearly thIs part of the campaign was to shift blame onto the EU. You would admire the cynicism, if it wasn’t so damaging.
I think you're probably right. Maybe not the exact details have gone as they'd like, at every stage, but in broad terms it's on track.
We are seeing the General Election grid play out. Clearly thIs part of the campaign was to shift blame onto the EU. You would admire the cynicism, if it wasn’t so damaging.
The EU could have easily responded to the Johnson proposal with a fresh one of their own. But there is nothing. No movement at all from the May deal, which failed three times. Cynical campaign tactics only work if the other side fulfils their role in it.
I expect things to start happening fairly quickly now. The end game has started. THESE BLOODY KRAUTS WON'T LET YOU BREXIT Johnson Cummings is a maniac who needs to be ousted Its a DISGRACE that MPs hostile to Jezbollah won't give him the votes that aren't his by rights Get your paperwork in order if you plan to travel/trade/look at Europe or its your fault.
I have a simple solution. Dump a load of mud in parliament square and let the MPs recreate the Battle of Pearl Harbout, Batley style...
We are seeing the General Election grid play out. Clearly thIs part of the campaign was to shift blame onto the EU. You would admire the cynicism, if it wasn’t so damaging.
I think you're probably right. Maybe not the exact details have gone as they'd like, at every stage, but in broad terms it's on track.
A well choreographed Election campaign. Only one minor flaw, no election.
I have never been so pessimistic about Britain's future in Europe.
Britain has no future as a united political entity. It is the future of England, Scotland and Wales in Europe you should think about, as well as how to engineer the peaceful unification of Ireland.
Well, yes, I'm confused by people insisting No.10's line is all lies as well (admittedly, Johnson and his handlers are serial liars, but even a broken clock....).
I just don't understand why people are acting like it's some brand new development for someone in the EU to say the price of a deal is NI staying in the customs union. They think that any kind of border between the North and Republic of Ireland would be a big hassle. And they also think that, even if Britain leaves with No Deal, we would become so quickly sick of all the chaos that we'd come crawling back to the negotiating table, in which case they'd insist on the backstop at that point in exchange for all the 'mini-deals'.
They may be right or wrong in their beliefs and assumptions, but none of this is new.
The backstop has no end date but it is agreed that it will not be forever. A statement from Merkel that "NI can NEVER leave the CU" would blow that up. Hence why she did not say it. She merely stated the EU position of no exit Deal by 31 Oct without the backstop. And the spammers on the Johnson team did the rest.
I didn't realise you had deposited a radio transmitter in Angela Merkel's bra, enabling you to listen in on her conversations, unlike the rest of us, and thereby set us all right. Fiendishly clever,
We are seeing the General Election grid play out. Clearly thIs part of the campaign was to shift blame onto the EU. You would admire the cynicism, if it wasn’t so damaging.
+1. Indeed. The £100 million advertising about Leaving the EU was all a part of this and alerted me to the possibility of a GE before BJ tried to get one. It is disgusting the way the Tories are behaving but they and other governments in the past have abused power and taxpayer cash to party political advantage...
I didn't realise you had deposited a radio transmitter in Angela Merkel's bra, enabling you to listen in on her conversations, unlike the rest of us, and thereby set us all right. Fiendishly clever,
We are seeing the General Election grid play out. Clearly thIs part of the campaign was to shift blame onto the EU. You would admire the cynicism, if it wasn’t so damaging.
The EU could have easily responded to the Johnson proposal with a fresh one of their own. But there is nothing. No movement at all from the May deal, which failed three times. Cynical campaign tactics only work if the other side fulfils their role in it.
The EU were waiting for a proposal from the British government. They still haven't had one. All they've had is a sketch with numerous problems and the political equivalent of football chants.
Campaign to remain's view is 'German Chancellor - not British Prime Minister - stands up for Irish peace process. So shameful.'
But it isn't standing up for the peace process. It is siding with the republican community over the loyalist community. The Boris proposal had NI with RoI for some things and GB for others, splitting the difference. The EU position says everything has to be with the RoI.
This looks like the start of a pivot to a No Deal GE platform. If Farage does stand down, Boris will gobble up the BXP vote.
An out and out no deal platform is risky for the government . That policy isn’t supported by all Leavers and no deal isn’t just hated by the 21 Tory rebels but some others who so far have stayed quiet .
Going for a no deal legitimizes the Lib Dem position in many Lib Dem Tory marginals .
You have two polarized positions . And what does business do during the election campaign , you only need one big manufacturer to come out and confirm they’re leaving in that case to really highlight the recklessness of no deal .
There are no good options for either Labour or the Tories.
The opposition has had the numbers to force Johnson from power for ages. That they haven't for perceived political advantage is their own problem today it seems.
Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.
Do you remember all those predictions about Mrs May getting a humungous 3-figure majority in 2017?
Anyway, if someone could let me know when Boris will he doing his "I am speaking to you now" speech so that I can stock up in plenty of time, that would be appreciated. I have my "Dig for Victory" spade all ready.
The opposition has had the numbers to force Johnson from power for ages. That they haven't for perceived political advantage is their own problem today it seems.
The problem is that they know Johnson can't be trusted, and they're unwilling to take the chance of parliament being dissolved before an extension has been arranged.
Do you remember all those predictions about Mrs May getting a humungous 3-figure majority in 2017?
Anyway, if someone could let me know when Boris will he doing his "I am speaking to you now" speech so that I can stock up in plenty of time, that would be appreciated. I have my "Dig for Victory" spade all ready.
"I have to tell you now that no such alternative has been arranged, and that consequently this country is at war with itself."
This looks like the start of a pivot to a No Deal GE platform. If Farage does stand down, Boris will gobble up the BXP vote.
An out and out no deal platform is risky for the government . That policy isn’t supported by all Leavers and no deal isn’t just hated by the 21 Tory rebels but some others who so far have stayed quiet .
Going for a no deal legitimizes the Lib Dem position in many Lib Dem Tory marginals .
You have two polarized positions . And what does business do during the election campaign , you only need one big manufacturer to come out and confirm they’re leaving in that case to really highlight the recklessness of no deal .
There are no good options for either Labour or the Tories.
There's one good option for Labour. OK, it's not great, but it'll stop them getting killed and buried in a hole. GNU, referendum, deliver brexit or revoke.
Brexit has been boiled down to its essential element. In a way I admire its honesty.
I've never said it is across the piece, but there has always been that "Two World Wars and One World Cup" element.
Who knew, though, that "Doo-Dah, Doo-Dah" were the lyrics the Brexiteers had taken most to heart, so much so that they will cover us all 10ft deep in it.
This looks like the start of a pivot to a No Deal GE platform. If Farage does stand down, Boris will gobble up the BXP vote.
An out and out no deal platform is risky for the government . That policy isn’t supported by all Leavers and no deal isn’t just hated by the 21 Tory rebels but some others who so far have stayed quiet .
Going for a no deal legitimizes the Lib Dem position in many Lib Dem Tory marginals .
You have two polarized positions . And what does business do during the election campaign , you only need one big manufacturer to come out and confirm they’re leaving in that case to really highlight the recklessness of no deal .
There are no good options for either Labour or the Tories.
It's unlikely any big household name business will come out and say that they will do that. They'd be rightly viewed as playing politics and taking sides by half their potential customers.
Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.
Why? Are they expecting May to return? Are they expecting Parliament to overturn their previous three rejections of it?
This looks like the start of a pivot to a No Deal GE platform. If Farage does stand down, Boris will gobble up the BXP vote.
An out and out no deal platform is risky for the government . That policy isn’t supported by all Leavers and no deal isn’t just hated by the 21 Tory rebels but some others who so far have stayed quiet .
Going for a no deal legitimizes the Lib Dem position in many Lib Dem Tory marginals .
You have two polarized positions . And what does business do during the election campaign , you only need one big manufacturer to come out and confirm they’re leaving in that case to really highlight the recklessness of no deal .
There are no good options for either Labour or the Tories.
The purpose of Johnson's sham attempt at a new deal is to persuade those Leavers reluctant to leave without a deal that it is not possible to agree a deal. Given the way it has been reported in the media I think there is a decent chance of success for this strategy.
Campaign to remain's view is 'German Chancellor - not British Prime Minister - stands up for Irish peace process. So shameful.'
But it isn't standing up for the peace process. It is siding with the republican community over the loyalist community. The Boris proposal had NI with RoI for some things and GB for others, splitting the difference. The EU position says everything has to be with the RoI.
Well said. Some people seem to think that the GFA means Ireland is united.
When even Nobel Prize Winner David Trimble who signed the GFA is vehemently against the backstop it's clearly bollocks.
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
I don’t. However by refusing to recognise the special status of NI, as confirmed by both the Anglo- Irish Agreement and the GFA, you do. Have you read the GFA BTW? I have. Shortly before it was signed, during the first IRA ceasefire, I was lucky enough to meet John Hume when he gave a talk at my university - he said that the best chance for peace in Ireland was the abolition of the border in an EU context. He was right. As a result I saw this coming. You didn’t.
You shouldn’t comment on Irish affairs given yesterday you suggested Ireland “was not a country” before 1922, despite it being recognised even then as a separate jurisdiction, even by the U.K. I guess you would equally say that neither England nor Scotland are countries today? The ignorance of you and your fellow travellers is breathtaking. This mess is all of your failing to understand how important this issue is across the island of Ireland and your failure to make provision so as to preserve your myth of “sovereignty”.
That's not what I said. I said that it was not an independent sovereign country. Nor is Scotland.
You said Ireland was not the country of the Irish.
Do you remember all those predictions about Mrs May getting a humungous 3-figure majority in 2017?
Anyway, if someone could let me know when Boris will he doing his "I am speaking to you now" speech so that I can stock up in plenty of time, that would be appreciated. I have my "Dig for Victory" spade all ready.
"I have to tell you now that no such alternative has been arranged, and that consequently this country is at war with itself."
I'm a glass half-full girl. If there's a shortage of food and petrol my diet and exercise plan might finally work.
Do you remember all those predictions about Mrs May getting a humungous 3-figure majority in 2017?
Anyway, if someone could let me know when Boris will he doing his "I am speaking to you now" speech so that I can stock up in plenty of time, that would be appreciated. I have my "Dig for Victory" spade all ready.
I have just realised, you've been digging for victory already, with your 152 plants or whatever it was. Whilst the rest of us will be ramraiding CostCo for the last few defrosting lasagnes, you'll be in your greenhouse chewing spinach leaves, feeling rather good about your preparations.
Do you remember all those predictions about Mrs May getting a humungous 3-figure majority in 2017?
Anyway, if someone could let me know when Boris will he doing his "I am speaking to you now" speech so that I can stock up in plenty of time, that would be appreciated. I have my "Dig for Victory" spade all ready.
"I have to tell you now that no such alternative has been arranged, and that consequently this country is at war with itself."
I'm a glass half-full girl. If there's a shortage of food and petrol my diet and exercise plan might finally work.
I didn't realise you had deposited a radio transmitter in Angela Merkel's bra, enabling you to listen in on her conversations, unlike the rest of us, and thereby set us all right. Fiendishly clever,
I didn't realise you had deposited a radio transmitter in Angela Merkel's bra, enabling you to listen in on her conversations, unlike the rest of us, and thereby set us all right. Fiendishly clever,
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
I don’t. However by refusing to recognise the special status of NI, as confirmed by both the Anglo- Irish Agreement and the GFA, you do. Have you read the GFA BTW? I have. Shortly before it was signed, during the first IRA ceasefire, I was lucky enough to meet John Hume when he gave a talk at my university - he said that the best chance for peace in Ireland was the abolition of the border in an EU context. He was right. As a result I saw this coming. You didn’t.
You shouldn’t comment on Irish affairs given yesterday you suggested Ireland “was not a country” before 1922, despite it being recognised even then as a separate jurisdiction, even by the U.K. I guess you would equally say that neither England nor Scotland are countries today? The ignorance of you and your fellow travellers is breathtaking. This mess is all of your failing to understand how important this issue is across the island of Ireland and your failure to make provision so as to preserve your myth of “sovereignty”.
That's not what I said. I said that it was not an independent sovereign country. Nor is Scotland.
You said Ireland was not the country of the Irish.
It's not. Northern Ireland is part of our country. It is not a part of the Republic of Ireland as the Good Friday Agreement and international law recognises.
As for my second paragraph see the word independent. The borders of independent Ireland, where it existed, changed a lot over the las thousand years and almost never covered the entire island in that time.
Do you remember all those predictions about Mrs May getting a humungous 3-figure majority in 2017?
Anyway, if someone could let me know when Boris will he doing his "I am speaking to you now" speech so that I can stock up in plenty of time, that would be appreciated. I have my "Dig for Victory" spade all ready.
I have just realised, you've been digging for victory already, with your 152 plants or whatever it was. Whilst the rest of us will be ramraiding CostCo for the last few defrosting lasagnes, you'll be in your greenhouse chewing spinach leaves, feeling rather good about your preparations.
The lemon tree has a healthy crop of lemons already and the gin is stored!
And the apple and plum trees are looking good too.
But sshhh, don't tell anyone. I don't want starving urchins at the door.
Do you remember all those predictions about Mrs May getting a humungous 3-figure majority in 2017?
Anyway, if someone could let me know when Boris will he doing his "I am speaking to you now" speech so that I can stock up in plenty of time, that would be appreciated. I have my "Dig for Victory" spade all ready.
"I have to tell you now that no such alternative has been arranged, and that consequently this country is at war with itself."
I'm a glass half-full girl. If there's a shortage of food and petrol my diet and exercise plan might finally work.
🙂
Carbon footprint reduced too.
I know. Slim, green and with all those long dark nights without electricity to fill .......
Do you remember all those predictions about Mrs May getting a humungous 3-figure majority in 2017?
Anyway, if someone could let me know when Boris will he doing his "I am speaking to you now" speech so that I can stock up in plenty of time, that would be appreciated. I have my "Dig for Victory" spade all ready.
I have just realised, you've been digging for victory already, with your 152 plants or whatever it was. Whilst the rest of us will be ramraiding CostCo for the last few defrosting lasagnes, you'll be in your greenhouse chewing spinach leaves, feeling rather good about your preparations.
The lemon tree has a healthy crop of lemons already and the gin is stored!
And the apple and plum trees are looking good too.
But sshhh, don't tell anyone. I don't want starving urchins at the door.
😏
You can buy my silence with a couple of lemons and a nip of the gin.
That's probably clever politics from them. Boris wants to look like the nice, reasonable chap who did his best but was rebuffed. If they can instead attribute the collapse of the negotiations to his intransigence and bellicosity, then No Deal and its ramifications will hang about Boris's neck like an albatross. Nigel would prefer surrender from Boris, but failing that a disastrous No Deal with Boris as its architect would suffice.
Explain to me how Farage prospers from "a disastrous No Deal"?
I think Farage will use the same trick that the Leavers used against Theresa: that Boris was never sufficiently devoted to the project, didn't really understand it and thus was always going to get a sub-optimal outcome. He can keep things relatively fuzzy. If the economy tanks most, if not all, Leavers will blame the implementation rather than the process itself.
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
I don’t. However by refusing to recognise the special status of NI, as confirmed by both the Anglo- Irish Agreement and the GFA, you do. Have you read the GFA BTW? I have. Shortly before it was signed, during the first IRA ceasefire, I was lucky enough to meet John Hume when he gave a talk at my university - he said that the best chance for peace in Ireland was the abolition of the border in an EU context. He was right. As a result I saw this coming. You didn’t.
You shouldn’t comment on Irish affairs given yesterday you suggested Ireland “was not a country” before 1922, despite it being recognised even then as a separate jurisdiction, even by the U.K. I guess you would equally say that neither England nor Scotland are countries today? The ignorance of you and your fellow travellers is breathtaking. This mess is all of your failing to understand how important this issue is across the island of Ireland and your failure to make provision so as to preserve your myth of “sovereignty”.
That's not what I said. I said that it was not an independent sovereign country. Nor is Scotland.
You said Ireland was not the country of the Irish.
It's not. Northern Ireland is part of our country. It is not a part of the Republic of Ireland as the Good Friday Agreement and international law recognises.
As for my second paragraph see the word independent. The borders of independent Ireland, where it existed, changed a lot over the las thousand years and almost never covered the entire island in that time.
Really? The Kingdom of Ireland, until 1801, did. And the High Kings at Tara had theoretical overlordship.
Do you remember all those predictions about Mrs May getting a humungous 3-figure majority in 2017?
Anyway, if someone could let me know when Boris will he doing his "I am speaking to you now" speech so that I can stock up in plenty of time, that would be appreciated. I have my "Dig for Victory" spade all ready.
I have just realised, you've been digging for victory already, with your 152 plants or whatever it was. Whilst the rest of us will be ramraiding CostCo for the last few defrosting lasagnes, you'll be in your greenhouse chewing spinach leaves, feeling rather good about your preparations.
The lemon tree has a healthy crop of lemons already and the gin is stored!
And the apple and plum trees are looking good too.
But sshhh, don't tell anyone. I don't want starving urchins at the door.
😏
You can buy my silence with a couple of lemons and a nip of the gin.
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
I don’t. However by refusing to recognise the special status of NI, as confirmed by both the Anglo- Irish Agreement and the GFA, you do. Have you read the GFA BTW? I have. Shortly before it was signed, during the first IRA ceasefire, I was lucky enough to meet John Hume when he gave a talk at my university - he said that the best chance for peace in Ireland was the abolition of the border in an EU context. He was right. As a result I saw this coming. You didn’t.
You shouldn’t comment on Irish affairs given yesterday you suggested Ireland “was not a country” before 1922, despite it being recognised even then as a separate jurisdiction, even by the U.K. I guess you would equally say that neither England nor Scotland are countries today? The ignorance of you and your fellow travellers is breathtaking. This mess is all of your failing to understand how important this issue is across the island of Ireland and your failure to make provision so as to preserve your myth of “sovereignty”.
That's not what I said. I said that it was not an independent sovereign country. Nor is Scotland.
You said Ireland was not the country of the Irish.
It's not. Northern Ireland is part of our country. It is not a part of the Republic of Ireland as the Good Friday Agreement and international law recognises.
As for my second paragraph see the word independent. The borders of independent Ireland, where it existed, changed a lot over the las thousand years and almost never covered the entire island in that time.
Really? The Kingdom of Ireland, until 1801, did. And the High Kings at Tara had theoretical overlordship.
The Kingdom of Ireland had consistent borders over the entire island? Are you sure of that? In which years?
Or did the Kingdom of Ireland reign over a part of the island just like the Republic does now?
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
I don’t. However by refusing to recognise the special status of NI, as confirmed by both the Anglo- Irish Agreement and the GFA, you do. Have you read the GFA BTW? I have. Shortly before it was signed, during the first IRA ceasefire, I was lucky enough to meet John Hume when he gave a talk at my university - he said that the best chance for peace in Ireland was the abolition of the border in an EU context. He was right. As a result I saw this coming. You didn’t.
You shouldn’t comment on Irish affairs given yesterday you suggested Ireland “was not a country” before 1922, despite it being recognised even then as a separate jurisdiction, even by the U.K. I guess you would equally say that neither England nor Scotland are countries today? The ignorance of you and your fellow travellers is breathtaking. This mess is all of your failing to understand how important this issue is across the island of Ireland and your failure to make provision so as to preserve your myth of “sovereignty”.
That's not what I said. I said that it was not an independent sovereign country. Nor is Scotland.
You said Ireland was not the country of the Irish.
It's not. Northern Ireland is part of our country. It is not a part of the Republic of Ireland as the Good Friday Agreement and international law recognises.
As for my second paragraph see the word independent. The borders of independent Ireland, where it existed, changed a lot over the las thousand years and almost never covered the entire island in that time.
Really? The Kingdom of Ireland, until 1801, did. And the High Kings at Tara had theoretical overlordship.
The Kingdom of Ireland had consistent borders over the entire island? Are you sure of that? In which years?
Or did the Kingdom of Ireland reign over a part of the island just like the Republic does now?
What were the borders of the Kingdom of Great Britain before the union? What were the borders of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland afterwards?
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
I don’t. However by refusing to recognise the special status of NI, as confirmed by both the Anglo- Irish Agreement and the GFA, you do. Have you read the GFA BTW? I have. Shortly before it was signed, during the first IRA ceasefire, I was lucky enough to meet John Hume when he gave a talk at my university - he said that the best chance for peace in Ireland was the abolition of the border in an EU context. He was right. As a result I saw this coming. You didn’t.
You shouldn’t comment on Irish affairs given yesterday you suggested Ireland “was not a country” before 1922, despite it being recognised even then as a separate jurisdiction, even by the U.K. I guess you would equally say that neither England nor Scotland are countries today? The ignorance of you and your fellow travellers is breathtaking. This mess is all of your failing to understand how important this issue is across the island of Ireland and your failure to make provision so as to preserve your myth of “sovereignty”.
That's not what I said. I said that it was not an independent sovereign country. Nor is Scotland.
You said Ireland was not the country of the Irish.
It's not. Northern Ireland is part of our country. It is not a part of the Republic of Ireland as the Good Friday Agreement and international law recognises.
As for my second paragraph see the word independent. The borders of independent Ireland, where it existed, changed a lot over the las thousand years and almost never covered the entire island in that time.
Really? The Kingdom of Ireland, until 1801, did. And the High Kings at Tara had theoretical overlordship.
The Kingdom of Ireland had consistent borders over the entire island? Are you sure of that? In which years?
Or did the Kingdom of Ireland reign over a part of the island just like the Republic does now?
What were the borders of the Kingdom of Great Britain before the union? What were the borders of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland afterwards?
Borders of counties in Europe changed a lot over the past thousand years.
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
I don’t. However by refusing to recognise the special status of NI, as confirmed by both the Anglo- Irish Agreement and the GFA, you do. Have you read the GFA BTW? I have. Shortly before it was signed, during the first IRA ceasefire, I was lucky enough to meet John Hume when he gave a talk at my university - he said that the best chance for peace in Ireland was the abolition of the border in an EU context. He was right. As a result I saw this coming. You didn’t.
You shouldn’t comment on Irish affairs given yesterday you suggested Ireland “was not a country” before 1922, despite it being recognised even then as a separate jurisdiction, even by the U.K. I guess you would equally say that neither England nor Scotland are countries today? The ignorance of you and your fellow travellers is breathtaking. This mess is all of your failing to understand how important this issue is across the island of Ireland and your failure to make provision so as to preserve your myth of “sovereignty”.
That's not what I said. I said that it was not an independent sovereign country. Nor is Scotland.
You said Ireland was not the country of the Irish.
It's not. Northern Ireland is part of our country. It is not a part of the Republic of Ireland as the Good Friday Agreement and international law recognises.
As for my second paragraph see the word independent. The borders of independent Ireland, where it existed, changed a lot over the las thousand years and almost never covered the entire island in that time.
Really? The Kingdom of Ireland, until 1801, did. And the High Kings at Tara had theoretical overlordship.
The Kingdom of Ireland had consistent borders over the entire island? Are you sure of that? In which years?
Or did the Kingdom of Ireland reign over a part of the island just like the Republic does now?
What were the borders of the Kingdom of Great Britain before the union? What were the borders of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland afterwards?
Preposterous argument.
Ireland was ruled by Vikings from the 9th century. Perhaps Dublin or Belfast should be given to Norway, or Denmark?
Before that, Eire was ruled by the moon, and the locals ate dung,
No one could not. The counties are not a colony they are a sovereign part of our country as recognised by international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you want to tear up the Good Friday Agreement?
I don’t. However by refusing to recognise the special status of NI, as confirmed by both the Anglo- Irish Agreement and the GFA, you do. Have you read the GFA BTW? I have. Shortly before it was signed, during the first IRA ceasefire, I was lucky enough to meet John Hume when he gave a talk at my university - he said that the best chance for peace in Ireland was the abolition of the border in an EU context. He was right. As a result I saw this coming. You didn’t.
You shouldn’t comment on Irish affairs given yesterday you suggested Ireland “was not a country” before 1922, despite it being recognised even then as a separate jurisdiction, even by the U.K. I guess you would equally say that neither England nor Scotland are countries today? The ignorance of you and your fellow travellers is breathtaking. This mess is all of your failing to understand how important this issue is across the island of Ireland and your failure to make provision so as to preserve your myth of “sovereignty”.
That's not what I said. I said that it was not an independent sovereign country. Nor is Scotland.
You said Ireland was not the country of the Irish.
It's not. Northern Ireland is part of our country. It is not a part of the Republic of Ireland as the Good Friday Agreement and international law recognises.
As for my second paragraph see the word independent. The borders of independent Ireland, where it existed, changed a lot over the las thousand years and almost never covered the entire island in that time.
Really? The Kingdom of Ireland, until 1801, did. And the High Kings at Tara had theoretical overlordship.
The Kingdom of Ireland had consistent borders over the entire island? Are you sure of that? In which years?
Or did the Kingdom of Ireland reign over a part of the island just like the Republic does now?
What were the borders of the Kingdom of Great Britain before the union? What were the borders of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland afterwards?
Borders of counties in Europe changed a lot over the past thousand years.
The Kingdom of Ireland had consistent borders over the entire island? Are you sure of that? In which years?
Or did the Kingdom of Ireland reign over a part of the island just like the Republic does now?
What were the borders of the Kingdom of Great Britain before the union? What were the borders of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland afterwards?
The Kingdom of Ireland was proclaimed by the titular Lord of Ireland, Henry VIII, in 1542 and legally consisted of all Ireland (and its small offshore islands such as the Aran Islands and Tory Island) until it was unified with the Kingdom of Great Britain in 1801. During that period it had a technically independent legislature but was in a personal union through the English (later British) monarch, similar to Scotland between 1601 and 1707 and Australia, Canada and NZ today.
The Kingdom of Great Britain was established in 1707 through the union of England (which had annex Wales centuries before) and Scotland. It consisted of the whole of the island of Great Britain and its outlying islands, such as the Orkneys and the Isle of Wight.
Even after these unions, England (with Wales), Scotland and Ireland retained their identities as separate legal jurisdictions encompassing all of the territory of the former kingdoms.
The Kingdom of Ireland had consistent borders over the entire island? Are you sure of that? In which years?
Or did the Kingdom of Ireland reign over a part of the island just like the Republic does now?
What were the borders of the Kingdom of Great Britain before the union? What were the borders of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland afterwards?
The Kingdom of Ireland was proclaimed by the titular Lord of Ireland, Henry VIII, in 1542 and legally consisted of all Ireland (and its small offshore islands such as the Aran Islands and Tory Island) until it was unified with the Kingdom of Great Britain in 1801. During that period it had a technically independent legislature but was in a personal union through the English (later British) monarch, similar to Scotland between 1601 and 1707 and Australia, Canada and NZ today.
The Kingdom of Great Britain was established in 1707 through the union of England (which had annex Wales centuries before) and Scotland. It consisted of the whole of the island of Great Britain and its outlying islands, such as the Orkneys and the Isle of Wight.
Even after these unions, England (with Wales), Scotland and Ireland retained their identities as separate legal jurisdictions encompassing all of the territory of the former kingdoms.
Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.
Then they should have called off negotiations months ago and said no more. It's not up to them to come up with new solutions after all, and if that is the only viable form of Brexit as far as theh are concerned then it makes continuing the pretence of talking pointless.
Christ. So the Germans want war, rather than just dystopian no deal?
Spam fritters it is. Stock up now.
Yes, I’m pissed off by the attitude of the EU on this too, as dickish as Johnson’s administration is too.
Just imagine how dickish the EU really would be if we didn't hold all cards.
That’s a very tired cliche, almost as much as the one about Parliament taking back control.
It should be obvious that both sides need to make more effort to make NI a special case and keeping it in the SM and CU simply isn’t acceptable to the UK, nor is using it as a Trojan horse to keep the rest of the UK in close alignment.
The answer, as it always has been, is to leave the EU but for the entire UK to remain in the single market and customs union.
This solution should have been effected in 2016. Had it been so, we'd now all be getting on with our lives, the economy would be in decent shape, the Irish question would be satisfied, and we'd have the necessary trading certainty for business.
Had the UK remained in the Single Market and Customs Union we would still have had full free movement from the EU, still been subject to European Courts rulings and still been unable to do our own trade deals.
Comments
I just don't understand why people are acting like it's some brand new development for someone in the EU to say the price of a deal is NI staying in the customs union. They think that any kind of border between the North and Republic of Ireland would be a big hassle. And they also think that, even if Britain leaves with No Deal, we would become so quickly sick of all the chaos that we'd come crawling back to the negotiating table, in which case they'd insist on the backstop at that point in exchange for all the 'mini-deals'.
They may be right or wrong in their beliefs and assumptions, but none of this is new.
As an aside, what is the opposition doing about it? Whether you agree with 'No Deal' or not, they allegedly don't. I presume they've laid down a VoNC therefore?
Oh wait, they're still frit........
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
"No exit deal by 31 Oct without the backstop," is what she almost certainly said.
To then produce the number 10 spin, you just assume the backstop is perpetual, since it has no end date, et voila.
Mission accomplished. Softhead outrage train is rolling!
You shouldn’t comment on Irish affairs given yesterday you suggested Ireland “was not a country” before 1922, despite it being recognised even then as a separate jurisdiction, even by the U.K. I guess you would equally say that neither England nor Scotland are countries today? The ignorance of you and your fellow travellers is breathtaking. This mess is all of your failing to understand how important this issue is across the island of Ireland and your failure to make provision so as to preserve your myth of “sovereignty”.
No but
Yeah but
Don't like the idea of Corbyn as PM !
And yet.... she hasn't denied it. Not a peep. One can only conclude that she did say it, or something close, and she probably said it for a reason. To focus minds (job done) and to avoid blame (job very much not done). She has also set off a firestorm which she probably did not predict.
She is a formidable but fallible politician, who is now in decline. An earlier, more adroit Merkel would not have done this. She's not been the same since the migrant crisis, and is now way past her sell by, unfortunately for Europe (UK included).
Brexit makes no sense and Britain should vote again, says Jürgen Klopp
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/apr/23/brexit-makes-no-sense-and-britain-should-vote-again-says-jurgen-klopp
Merkel's assertion that we don't set NI off down the road at all until the endpoint is delivered to us, in context, follows logically from Boris's red lines.
If she said "you've got rid of the backstop you mopheaded cockwomble, of course (NI will have to stay in the CU) until the FTA and border regime are sorted - pillock", the gist of which is quite likely, it would almost be better. The context under which NI would have to stay in the CU is key, and let's not take No. 10 on trust for that context.
Merkel has just refused to compromise at all. It is this "our way or the high way" approach that caused Brexit in the first place, with the weak response to Cameron's renegotiation. I would love it if the British were flat-out pro-Europeans like the Germans, but we are not. Yet the EU refuses to accept that. They constabtly react to British reservations as if we are naughty school children and it just pisses people off and inflames the situation.
I have never been so pessimistic about Britain's future in Europe.
They have made it very easy for them to be painted as acting in bad faith.
The reason for the confected outrage in response is that it is the blame game for No Deal. It's all to frame that as being the result of EU intransigence and imperialism.
And then you have people who reflexively view anything said by this government to be complete cobblers.
Meanwhile, lost in the noise, the Northern Ireland dairy farmers were clear that 25% tariffs on their exports to the Republic would mean mass culling of cattle in Northern Ireland, as their industry was destroyed on the altar of Boris Johnson's political ambitions.
'German Chancellor - not British Prime Minister - stands up for Irish peace process. So shameful.'
THESE BLOODY KRAUTS WON'T LET YOU BREXIT
Johnson Cummings is a maniac who needs to be ousted
Its a DISGRACE that MPs hostile to Jezbollah won't give him the votes that aren't his by rights
Get your paperwork in order if you plan to travel/trade/look at Europe or its your fault.
I have a simple solution. Dump a load of mud in parliament square and let the MPs recreate the Battle of Pearl Harbout, Batley style...
https://i.imgur.com/Ty45vdc.mp4
Going for a no deal legitimizes the Lib Dem position in many Lib Dem Tory marginals .
You have two polarized positions . And what does business do during the election campaign , you only need one big manufacturer to come out and confirm they’re leaving in that case to really highlight the recklessness of no deal .
There are no good options for either Labour or the Tories.
Anyway, if someone could let me know when Boris will he doing his "I am speaking to you now" speech so that I can stock up in plenty of time, that would be appreciated. I have my "Dig for Victory" spade all ready.
Who knew, though, that "Doo-Dah, Doo-Dah" were the lyrics the Brexiteers had taken most to heart, so much so that they will cover us all 10ft deep in it.
Johnson will win big, if Farage and TBP are muted.
When even Nobel Prize Winner David Trimble who signed the GFA is vehemently against the backstop it's clearly bollocks.
🙂
I can lend you one if you like.
What's your size?
As for my second paragraph see the word independent. The borders of independent Ireland, where it existed, changed a lot over the las thousand years and almost never covered the entire island in that time.
And the apple and plum trees are looking good too.
But sshhh, don't tell anyone. I don't want starving urchins at the door.
😏
😜
Or did the Kingdom of Ireland reign over a part of the island just like the Republic does now?
Ireland was ruled by Vikings from the 9th century. Perhaps Dublin or Belfast should be given to Norway, or Denmark?
Before that, Eire was ruled by the moon, and the locals ate dung,
The Kingdom of Great Britain was established in 1707 through the union of England (which had annex Wales centuries before) and Scotland. It consisted of the whole of the island of Great Britain and its outlying islands, such as the Orkneys and the Isle of Wight.
Even after these unions, England (with Wales), Scotland and Ireland retained their identities as separate legal jurisdictions encompassing all of the territory of the former kingdoms.
Understand?
I wonder why Merkel chose this moment to go Proper Chernobyl. Maybe she's just bored.