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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tommyknockers. The death of the old Conservative party

SystemSystem Posts: 12,171
edited September 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tommyknockers. The death of the old Conservative party

Stephen King has produced some dross. One of his worst is a book called Tommyknockers, the premise of which is that an alien spacecraft is found buried in the woods in Maine, and it then starts a creeping possession of the minds and bodies of the local townsfolk, until finally they mutate into the form of the aliens who flew in it. Stephen King himself has stated that he regards this as an awful book.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    First.
  • A Tories are crap thread. A welcome change from the Brexit is crap threads we normally get from our guest contributors
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    A Tories are crap thread. A welcome change from the Brexit is crap threads we normally get from our guest contributors

    Third
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    I wonder how big the Tories poll lead will be with Opinium and YouGov tonight? :D
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Third - like the proportion of votes the winning party will probably have at the next general election.
  • Excellent article. Mr Meeks; are you intending to lend your support to Jo Swinson and her team?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    A Tories are crap thread. A welcome change from the Brexit is crap threads we normally get from our guest contributors

    You might contribute a crap thread yourself ?!?
  • Pole - Le Clerc
    2 - Hamilton (who I got on at 13/1 for pole; value bet loser? [0.4 behind though])
    3 - Vettel
    4 - Verstappen (5 place grid penalty)
    5 - Bottas (who I was somewhat advising to lay yesterday FTW but chickened out of doing it myself)

    Albon crashed out in Q1
  • JackW said:

    A Tories are crap thread. A welcome change from the Brexit is crap threads we normally get from our guest contributors

    You might contribute a crap thread yourself ?!?
    very good - as I have stated before I think there's a danger that I might actually die of excitement if I got published here.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    And so we move into a completely area of discussion, forgetting all about Grammar Schools and young Miss Thunberg.

    I would vote for the current LibDems. I'm after all, habituated to do so. Would I vote, though, for a party with significant input from the likes of David Gauke.

    I'd have to think. Might go back to Labour. Or move to Wales and vote PC.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited September 2019
    Of course whether under Derby and Disraeli in opposition to corn law reform or under Balfour in opposition to Home Rule and the budgets of Lloyd George the Conservative Party has in the past quite often taken an aggressive and populist line, so it is a myth to say the populist position they are taking on Brexit marks the death of the 'old conservative party' as the Conservative Party has quite often taken a populist line.

    Indeed in the late 1840s, 1850s and 1860s or the late 1900s and early 1910s it was the Liberals of Russell and Palmerston (joined by Peelite defectors from the Tories) or Asquith and Lloyd George who presented themselves as the competent party of the urban middle class against the Tories as the party of the rural and landed classes and nationalist populism.

    It may be the Liberals are presenting themselves again as the party for middle class professionals and those who want 'competent' government against the populism of the Boris Tories or Corbyn Labour and already a few anti Brexit Cameroon Tories like Lee and Wollaston (the modern day heirs to the Peelites with Cameron or May as Peel and Boris as Derby or Disraeli?) and anti Corbyn Labour MPs like Umunna and Berger have joined them on that basis
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    HYUFD said:

    Of course whether under Derby and Disraeli in opposition to corn law reform or under Balfour in opposition to Home Rule and the budgets of Lloyd George the Conservative Party has in the past quite often taken an aggressive and populist line, so it is a myth to say the populist position they are taking on Brexit marks the death of the 'old conservative party' as the Conservative Party has quite often taken a populist line.

    Indeed in the late 1840s, 1850s and 1860s or the late 1900s and early 1910s it was the Liberals of Russell and Palmerston (joined by Peelite defectors from the Tories) or Asquith and Lloyd George who presented themselves as the competent party of the urban middle class against the Tories as the party of the rural and landed classes and nationalist populism.

    It may be the Liberals are presenting themselves again as the party for middle class professionals and those who want 'competent' government against the populism of the Boris Tories or Corbyn Labour and already a few anti Brexit Tories like Lee and Wollaston and anti Corbyn Labour MPs like Umunna and Berger have joined them on that basis

    Welcome back! It's the old HUFYD who used to make interesting points backed up with relevant facts.
  • Unless you are a raving fanatic on either the right or the left, the Lib Dems are the only ones left to vote for. The others are either vile or barking mad.

    It looks like i will have to vote LD
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    A Tories are crap thread. A welcome change from the Brexit is crap threads we normally get from our guest contributors

    You might contribute a crap thread yourself ?!?
    very good - as I have stated before I think there's a danger that I might actually die of excitement if I got published here.
    My dear fellow take it from someone of somewhat advanced years that there are better ways to "die of excitement" than to be in the very vitals of Mike Smithson's mighty organ.

    And with that considerable revelation I must away.
  • And so we move into a completely area of discussion, forgetting all about Grammar Schools and young Miss Thunberg.

    I would vote for the current LibDems. I'm after all, habituated to do so. Would I vote, though, for a party with significant input from the likes of David Gauke.

    I'd have to think. Might go back to Labour. Or move to Wales and vote PC.

    I'm also a bit stumped as to vote for. I want to go Anti-separatist but the main challengers are Labour who are most likely to collaborate (as well as other minus points such as being a bit silly with finances, but also pluses such as banning private schools and a 32 hour working week). Very tempted to go Tory as although I'm not quite at the official tory voting age Ms Brisk is practically there and we're a team.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    edited September 2019
    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    The Tories certainly have changed.

    I have long argued that there is a gap in the market for a hardcore right wing nationalist party that is genuinely nasty rather being quaint.

    No longer.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    HYUFD said:

    Of course whether under Derby and Disraeli in opposition to corn law reform or under Balfour in opposition to Home Rule and the budgets of Lloyd George the Conservative Party has in the past quite often taken an aggressive and populist line, so it is a myth to say the populist position they are taking on Brexit marks the death of the 'old conservative party' as the Conservative Party has quite often taken a populist line.

    Indeed in the late 1840s, 1850s and 1860s or the late 1900s and early 1910s it was the Liberals of Russell and Palmerston (joined by Peelite defectors from the Tories) or Asquith and Lloyd George who presented themselves as the competent party of the urban middle class against the Tories as the party of the rural and landed classes and nationalist populism.

    It may be the Liberals are presenting themselves again as the party for middle class professionals and those who want 'competent' government against the populism of the Boris Tories or Corbyn Labour and already a few anti Brexit Tories like Lee and Wollaston and anti Corbyn Labour MPs like Umunna and Berger have joined them on that basis

    Welcome back! It's the old HUFYD who used to make interesting points backed up with relevant facts.
    Thankyou, I will always be a Tory but am still capable of putting my historian's and analytical hat on too
  • Unless you are a raving fanatic on either the right or the left, the Lib Dems are the only ones left to vote for. The others are either vile or barking mad.

    It looks like i will have to vote LD

    Have you thought about contributing a thread header ?
  • It's amazing how Dom has been able to transform Brexitism into Borisism. Nowadays a desire to leave the EU is secondary (if that); it is one's commitment to the furtherance of the career of Boris Johnson by which one is now measured. Even Nigel Farage gets berated for criticizing Boris's constitutional crimes. That has nothing to do with Brexit, but the fact that Nigel dares question the Boris myth means he becomes ostracized. Scary times.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited September 2019
    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    To some extent but he will still likely be too populist for many who will make a permanent home in the Liberal Democrats, even if Boris does win a majority and pass the Withdrawal Agreement with a NI only backstop
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    As for the Lib Dem’s if Brexit is done and dusted by the next election they better start thinking about how they are going to be heard.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course whether under Derby and Disraeli in opposition to corn law reform or under Balfour in opposition to Home Rule and the budgets of Lloyd George the Conservative Party has in the past quite often taken an aggressive and populist line, so it is a myth to say the populist position they are taking on Brexit marks the death of the 'old conservative party' as the Conservative Party has quite often taken a populist line.

    Indeed in the late 1840s, 1850s and 1860s or the late 1900s and early 1910s it was the Liberals of Russell and Palmerston (joined by Peelite defectors from the Tories) or Asquith and Lloyd George who presented themselves as the competent party of the urban middle class against the Tories as the party of the rural and landed classes and nationalist populism.

    It may be the Liberals are presenting themselves again as the party for middle class professionals and those who want 'competent' government against the populism of the Boris Tories or Corbyn Labour and already a few anti Brexit Tories like Lee and Wollaston and anti Corbyn Labour MPs like Umunna and Berger have joined them on that basis

    Welcome back! It's the old HUFYD who used to make interesting points backed up with relevant facts.
    Thankyou, I will always be a Tory but am still capable of putting my historian's and analytical hat on too
    Not made of tin foil I trust?
  • I am completely indifferent to whether the PM signs the Surrender Act letter or not.. The Court can sign it for him, if necessary. But I would like to know before any VONC whether Jeremy Corbyn will be writing the letters of last resort to the commanding officers of the ballistic missile submarines. On a different point did my eyes deceive me or is Jared Omara MP still voting in this Undead parliament?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865

    Unless you are a raving fanatic on either the right or the left, the Lib Dems are the only ones left to vote for. The others are either vile or barking mad.

    It looks like i will have to vote LD

    You are sure you qualify?
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 437
    The LibDems would be mad to think they stand at a crossroads.

    Right now, both large parties have been taken over by totalitarians, and a huge proportion of the population despise both the policies of those totalitarians and the methods they adopt.

    The LibDem Constitution starts off with a Preamble (https://www.libdems.org.uk/constitution) that's pretty much a summary of everything those totalitarians most despise. We've never been in a position where debate is so visibly moving from a big policy issue (Brexit) to a big method of government issue (totalitarianism vs liberalism) and no-one really knows how public opinion breaks. Talk to my Cotswold neighbours and 95% are now, or are contemplating secretly voting, LibDem - mainly on governance grounds, rather than policy issues. But listen to the Doncaster or Stoke voxpops on the Beeb and it's clear that huge swathes of previously apparent small-l liberals now tolerate totalitarianism.

    Until this all plays out, it would be irresponsible to decide whether ex-Tories are a better target than ex-Labour: the target has to be, for now, current small-l liberals. There's no real evidence voters are anything like as swayed by who else supports a party: Labour voters haven't been turned off voting Leave by the fact that Farage supports it.

    For the foreseeable future, the LDs simply need to be BOTH the gung-ho supporters of more or less Remain (though I doubt they'd lose many votes or any authenticity if they settled just for the Single Market) and the even gungier-ho advocates of unalloyed small-l liberalism.

    We can wait till they've made the country safe for small-l liberalism before worrying whether that's pink-leading or blue-leaning liberalism. Right now: there are bigger fish to fry.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    edited September 2019
    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Johnson was a liberal Tory when it suited him. Now over half his cabinet voted against gay marriage and his MPs believe the government should have the right to close Parliament for as long as it wishes. Meanwhile, in Tory constituency parties the hard right is in the ascendent - Parliamentary candidates will do as they are told or be deselected. Even if Johnson wanted to take the party back to the centre he couldn’t. As Alastair says, there is no coming back from this. When Brexit is done the Tories will not be able to turn round and say “actually, we didn’t mean any of it”. They won’t want to and even if they did no-one will believe them.

  • DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Sounds like a variation of the 'Trump will reveal himself to be the liberal New Yorker he always was once in office' slogan.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    Flanner said:

    The LibDems would be mad to think they stand at a crossroads.

    Right now, both large parties have been taken over by totalitarians, and a huge proportion of the population despise both the policies of those totalitarians and the methods they adopt.

    The LibDem Constitution starts off with a Preamble (https://www.libdems.org.uk/constitution) that's pretty much a summary of everything those totalitarians most despise. We've never been in a position where debate is so visibly moving from a big policy issue (Brexit) to a big method of government issue (totalitarianism vs liberalism) and no-one really knows how public opinion breaks. Talk to my Cotswold neighbours and 95% are now, or are contemplating secretly voting, LibDem - mainly on governance grounds, rather than policy issues. But listen to the Doncaster or Stoke voxpops on the Beeb and it's clear that huge swathes of previously apparent small-l liberals now tolerate totalitarianism.

    Until this all plays out, it would be irresponsible to decide whether ex-Tories are a better target than ex-Labour: the target has to be, for now, current small-l liberals. There's no real evidence voters are anything like as swayed by who else supports a party: Labour voters haven't been turned off voting Leave by the fact that Farage supports it.

    For the foreseeable future, the LDs simply need to be BOTH the gung-ho supporters of more or less Remain (though I doubt they'd lose many votes or any authenticity if they settled just for the Single Market) and the even gungier-ho advocates of unalloyed small-l liberalism.

    We can wait till they've made the country safe for small-l liberalism before worrying whether that's pink-leading or blue-leaning liberalism. Right now: there are bigger fish to fry.

    Good post. The Facebook posts from my old home town of Canvey Island can be horrifying.
  • dyingswan said:

    I am completely indifferent to whether the PM signs the Surrender Act letter or not.. The Court can sign it for him, if necessary. But I would like to know before any VONC whether Jeremy Corbyn will be writing the letters of last resort to the commanding officers of the ballistic missile submarines. On a different point did my eyes deceive me or is Jared Omara MP still voting in this Undead parliament?

    He has rescinded his resignation.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    i can only see the comments in PB using Vanilla today - is that just me?
  • i can only see the comments in PB using Vanilla today - is that just me?

    It's working fine for me using the green app
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381

    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Johnson was a liberal Tory when it suited him. Now over half his cabinet voted against gay marriage and his MPs believe the government should have the right to close Parliament for as long as it wishes. Meanwhile, in Tory constituency parties the hard right is in the ascendent - Parliamentary candidates will do as they are told or be deselected. Even if Johnson wanted to take the party back to the centre he couldn’t. As Alastair says, there is no coming back from this. When Brexit is done the Tories will not be able to turn round and say “actually, we didn’t mean any of it”. They won’t want to and even if they did no-one will believe them.

    But, have the Conservatives simply not gone where the voters have gone?

    I now think this has all been a very long time coming. Economic growth dropped sharply across the West after 2000 (compared to the 1950-2000 period) ; the Great Financial Crash discredited the political class in most countries, and a lot of people in wealthier countries have been pushing back against globalisation. The United Kingdom fits in with other Western countries, instead of standing out.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,722

    i can only see the comments in PB using Vanilla today - is that just me?

    Chrome working on my new phone and hurrah, I have figured out how to disable Bixby!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533

    i can only see the comments in PB using Vanilla today - is that just me?

    It's working fine for me using the green app
    Green app? Normally I just go to politicalbetting.com, but today once the leading article has displayed it just loops instead of showing the comments below the line. Any suggestions?
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    It's fascinating to see how the open/closed political shift is playing out through the lens of FPTP and large party coalitions. Both the Labour and Conservative parties feel like the homes of broken marriages, where each spouse is sitting it out in loathing of the other in the hope that the other moves out first.
  • Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Johnson was a liberal Tory when it suited him. Now over half his cabinet voted against gay marriage and his MPs believe the government should have the right to close Parliament for as long as it wishes. Meanwhile, in Tory constituency parties the hard right is in the ascendent - Parliamentary candidates will do as they are told or be deselected. Even if Johnson wanted to take the party back to the centre he couldn’t. As Alastair says, there is no coming back from this. When Brexit is done the Tories will not be able to turn round and say “actually, we didn’t mean any of it”. They won’t want to and even if they did no-one will believe them.

    But, have the Conservatives simply not gone where the voters have gone?

    I now think this has all been a very long time coming. Economic growth dropped sharply across the West after 2000 (compared to the 1950-2000 period) ; the Great Financial Crash discredited the political class in most countries, and a lot of people in wealthier countries have been pushing back against globalisation. The United Kingdom fits in with other Western countries, instead of standing out.

    Yep - the Tories have gone where 35% of mostly older, English voters are. It should win them the next election. It’s the one after that which is interesting. What we know for sure is that Johnson’s party will not be the socially liberal, centrist entity DavidL thinks it will be.

  • i can only see the comments in PB using Vanilla today - is that just me?

    It's working fine for me using the green app
    Green app? Normally I just go to politicalbetting.com, but today once the leading article has displayed it just loops instead of showing the comments below the line. Any suggestions?
    Sorry I mean normal politicalbetting.com - facebook call there normal website the blue app y'see.

    Sorry, No suggestions, I've got no IT role, expect to report that all is working normally for me.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478

    i can only see the comments in PB using Vanilla today - is that just me?

    It's working fine for me using the green app
    Green app? Normally I just go to politicalbetting.com, but today once the leading article has displayed it just loops instead of showing the comments below the line. Any suggestions?
    It's certainly behaving oddly today. Try going to 'recent discussions" and clicking on Tommyknockers.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited September 2019
    I agree with the header's conclusion. There are three parties that can be described as not lunatic fringe. The SNP The Lib Dems and The Independent Group.

    We've heard from Nicola this week-end that the time has come to take the reins off Johnson and for this they'll almost certainly get a reasonable majority in parliament.

    A leader other than Corbyn would be best but that is secondary. This new PM should form a committee from the best of the above and set about agreeing a deal with Barnier based on May's deal but paying no heed to the wishes of the DUP or the hard line Tories who have already soiled themselves.

    This should see an end of the crackpots and we can have peace in the land once again.

    (If not I can recommend the South of France which is more cheery than the UK in every way )
  • Roger said:

    I agree with the header's conclusion. There are three parties than can be described as not lunatic fringe. The SNP The Lib Dems and The Independent Group.

    We've heard from Nicola this week-end that the time has come to take the reins off Johnson and for this she'll almost certainly get a reasonable majority.

    A leader other than Corbyn would be best but that is secondary. This new PM should form a committee from the best of the above and set about agreeing a deal with Barnier based on May's deal but paying no heed to the wishes of the DUP or the hard line Tories who have already soiled themselves.

    This should see an end of the crackpots and we can have peace in the land once again.

    (If not I can recommend the South of France which is more cheery than the UK anyway)

    The SNP want to split this island in two practically down the middle - whilst certainly not fringe they are definitely a bit loony
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Younger people need to take back control and vote .

    Other wise their future will once again be decided by the over 65s who having screwed them with Brexit will screw them with a lunatic right wing Tory government .
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    Roger said:

    I agree with the header's conclusion. There are three parties than can be described as not lunatic fringe. The SNP The Lib Dems and The Independent Group.

    We've heard from Nicola this week-end that the time has come to take the reins off Johnson and for this she'll almost certainly get a reasonable majority.

    A leader other than Corbyn would be best but that is secondary. This new PM should form a committee from the best of the above and set about agreeing a deal with Barnier based on May's deal but paying no heed to the wishes of the DUP or the hard line Tories who have already soiled themselves.

    This should see an end of the crackpots and we can have peace in the land once again.

    (If not I can recommend the South of France which is more cheery than the UK anyway)

    The SNP are pretty populist too, even if a bit less so under Sturgeon than Salmond.

    Le Pen also won most of the departments in the Mediterranean South coast of France in the first round of the 2017 presidential election
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533

    i can only see the comments in PB using Vanilla today - is that just me?

    It's working fine for me using the green app
    Green app? Normally I just go to politicalbetting.com, but today once the leading article has displayed it just loops instead of showing the comments below the line. Any suggestions?
    It's certainly behaving oddly today. Try going to 'recent discussions" and clicking on Tommyknockers.
    That works on Vanilla. I don't see a "recent discussions" button on the usual site. But thanks to you and JBriskin. Will read the vanilla site for now and hope it clears up.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited September 2019
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Johnson was a liberal Tory when it suited him. Now over half his cabinet voted against gay marriage and his MPs believe the government should have the right to close Parliament for as long as it wishes. Meanwhile, in Tory constituency parties the hard right is in the ascendent - Parliamentary candidates will do as they are told or be deselected. Even if Johnson wanted to take the party back to the centre he couldn’t. As Alastair says, there is no coming back from this. When Brexit is done the Tories will not be able to turn round and say “actually, we didn’t mean any of it”. They won’t want to and even if they did no-one will believe them.

    But, have the Conservatives simply not gone where the voters have gone?

    I now think this has all been a very long time coming. Economic growth dropped sharply across the West after 2000 (compared to the 1950-2000 period) ; the Great Financial Crash discredited the political class in most countries, and a lot of people in wealthier countries have been pushing back against globalisation. The United Kingdom fits in with other Western countries, instead of standing out.
    Of course in 2001 and 2005 the Tories also ran pretty populist campaigns against the EU and the Euro and immigration under Hague and Howard while Blair presented himself as leader of a sound competent New Labour government even before the crash
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: suspect value may be hard to find. Might see what odds a Verstappen podium.

    FPT: thanks, Miss JGP. I was a bit surprised the article went up so quickly as it's less time dependent than the Ipsus article I wrote a few weeks ago.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Johnson was a liberal Tory when it suited him. Now over half his cabinet voted against gay marriage and his MPs believe the government should have the right to close Parliament for as long as it wishes. Meanwhile, in Tory constituency parties the hard right is in the ascendent - Parliamentary candidates will do as they are told or be deselected. Even if Johnson wanted to take the party back to the centre he couldn’t. As Alastair says, there is no coming back from this. When Brexit is done the Tories will not be able to turn round and say “actually, we didn’t mean any of it”. They won’t want to and even if they did no-one will believe them.

    But, have the Conservatives simply not gone where the voters have gone?

    I now think this has all been a very long time coming. Economic growth dropped sharply across the West after 2000 (compared to the 1950-2000 period) ; the Great Financial Crash discredited the political class in most countries, and a lot of people in wealthier countries have been pushing back against globalisation. The United Kingdom fits in with other Western countries, instead of standing out.

    Yep - the Tories have gone where 35% of mostly older, English voters are. It should win them the next election. It’s the one after that which is interesting. What we know for sure is that Johnson’s party will not be the socially liberal, centrist entity DavidL thinks it will be.

    Which suggests the next non Tory government may be a Liberal Democrat led one rather than a Labour one
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: suspect value may be hard to find. Might see what odds a Verstappen podium.

    FPT: thanks, Miss JGP. I was a bit surprised the article went up so quickly as it's less time dependent than the Ipsus article I wrote a few weeks ago.

    I'd have been sitting pretty if my Bottas lay yesterday went through - but I agree, the grid has got vanilla grand prix written all over it.
  • HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Johnson was a liberal Tory when it suited him. Now over half his cabinet voted against gay marriage and his MPs believe the government should have the right to close Parliament for as long as it wishes. Meanwhile, in Tory constituency parties the hard right is in the ascendent - Parliamentary candidates will do as they are told or be deselected. Even if Johnson wanted to take the party back to the centre he couldn’t. As Alastair says, there is no coming back from this. When Brexit is done the Tories will not be able to turn round and say “actually, we didn’t mean any of it”. They won’t want to and even if they did no-one will believe them.

    But, have the Conservatives simply not gone where the voters have gone?

    I now think this has all been a very long time coming. Economic growth dropped sharply across the West after 2000 (compared to the 1950-2000 period) ; the Great Financial Crash discredited the political class in most countries, and a lot of people in wealthier countries have been pushing back against globalisation. The United Kingdom fits in with other Western countries, instead of standing out.

    Yep - the Tories have gone where 35% of mostly older, English voters are. It should win them the next election. It’s the one after that which is interesting. What we know for sure is that Johnson’s party will not be the socially liberal, centrist entity DavidL thinks it will be.

    Which suggests the next non Tory government may be a Liberal Democrat led one rather than a Labour one

    Labour’s next choice of leader will probably determine that. I would not be surprised to see an LD-led government within the next few years.

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Johnson was a liberal Tory when it suited him. Now over half his cabinet voted against gay marriage and his MPs believe the government should have the right to close Parliament for as long as it wishes. Meanwhile, in Tory constituency parties the hard right is in the ascendent - Parliamentary candidates will do as they are told or be deselected. Even if Johnson wanted to take the party back to the centre he couldn’t. As Alastair says, there is no coming back from this. When Brexit is done the Tories will not be able to turn round and say “actually, we didn’t mean any of it”. They won’t want to and even if they did no-one will believe them.

    But, have the Conservatives simply not gone where the voters have gone?

    I now think this has all been a very long time coming. Economic growth dropped sharply across the West after 2000 (compared to the 1950-2000 period) ; the Great Financial Crash discredited the political class in most countries, and a lot of people in wealthier countries have been pushing back against globalisation. The United Kingdom fits in with other Western countries, instead of standing out.

    Yep - the Tories have gone where 35% of mostly older, English voters are. It should win them the next election. It’s the one after that which is interesting. What we know for sure is that Johnson’s party will not be the socially liberal, centrist entity DavidL thinks it will be.

    Which suggests the next non Tory government may be a Liberal Democrat led one rather than a Labour one

    Labour’s next choice of leader will probably determine that. I would not be surprised to see an LD-led government within the next few years.

    The last three elections have confounded all predictions, so why the heck not?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Johnson was a liberal Tory when it suited him. Now over half his cabinet voted against gay marriage and his MPs believe the government should have the right to close Parliament for as long as it wishes. Meanwhile, in Tory constituency parties the hard right is in the ascendent - Parliamentary candidates will do as they are told or be deselected. Even if Johnson wanted to take the party back to the centre he couldn’t. As Alastair says, there is no coming back from this. When Brexit is done the Tories will not be able to turn round and say “actually, we didn’t mean any of it”. They won’t want to and even if they did no-one will believe them.

    But, have the Conservatives simply not gone where the voters have gone?

    I now think this has all been a very long time coming. Economic growth dropped sharply across the West after 2000 (compared to the 1950-2000 period) ; the Great Financial Crash discredited the political class in most countries, and a lot of people in wealthier countries have been pushing back against globalisation. The United Kingdom fits in with other Western countries, instead of standing out.

    Yep - the Tories have gone where 35% of mostly older, English voters are. It should win them the next election. It’s the one after that which is interesting. What we know for sure is that Johnson’s party will not be the socially liberal, centrist entity DavidL thinks it will be.

    Which suggests the next non Tory government may be a Liberal Democrat led one rather than a Labour one
    Do you mean you expect the next PM to be Corbyn, and that he will be followed by Swinson?

    Careful, the likes of Francois will be after you! Treason!!
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    I feel it necessary to point out that Stephen King has also written some of the greatest things in contemporary literature, certainly from a commercial point of view. The Shawshank Redemption, The Green Mile, The Shining, Misery, IT, Pet Sematary, Carrie, Salem's Lot etc.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited September 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Johnson was a liberal Tory when it suited him. Now over half his cabinet voted against gay marriage and his MPs believe the government should have the right to close Parliament for as long as it wishes. Meanwhile, in Tory constituency parties the hard right is in the ascendent - Parliamentary candidates will do as they are told or be deselected. Even if Johnson wanted to take the party back to the centre he couldn’t. As Alastair says, there is no coming back from this. When Brexit is done the Tories will not be able to turn round and say “actually, we didn’t mean any of it”. They won’t want to and even if they did no-one will believe them.

    But, have the Conservatives simply not gone where the voters have gone?

    I now think this has all been a very long time coming. Economic growth dropped sharply across the West after 2000 (compared to the 1950-2000 period) ; the Great Financial Crash discredited the political class in most countries, and a lot of people in wealthier countries have been pushing back against globalisation. The United Kingdom fits in with other Western countries, instead of standing out.

    DavidL thinks it will be.

    Which suggests the next non Tory government may be a Liberal Democrat led one rather than a Labour one

    Labour’s next choice of leader will probably determine that. I would not be surprised to see an LD-led government within the next few years.

    As the Labour conference vote to reject a Remain platform for the Party last week showed while proposing abolishing private schools and a 32 hour week and the fact Corbyn has twice won over 60% of Labour members the party is now firmly in the grips of the hard left so I cannot see anything other than Corbyn being replaced by a fellow Corbynista even if Labour lose the next general election, they are going the way of the Socialist Party in France in my view where En Marche has become the main party of the liberal centre left
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    I've a feeling Corbyn is going to outperform.

    More than a feeling. I watched him twice this week, once at the Labour Conference and once in the House of Commons. Compared with his ratings he vastly out-performed. He was really rather good at times, especially when exposing the tories for hypocrisy.

    I think he will take down Johnson who in turn will get very nasty back (IRA etc.).

    It's going to be vicious.

    p.s. I'm a Lib Dem member but I'm betting accordingly on Corbyn's Labour doing better than current polling.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,605

    i can only see the comments in PB using Vanilla today - is that just me?

    That happened to me a few days ago but not today.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited September 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Johnson was a liberal Tory when it suited him. Now over half his cabinet voted against gay marriage and his MPs believe the government should have the right to close Parliament for as long as it wishes. Meanwhile, in Tory constituency parties the hard right is in the ascendent - Parliamentary candidates will do as they are told or be deselected. Even if Johnson wanted to take the party back to the centre he couldn’t. As Alastair says, there is no coming back from this. When Brexit is done the Tories will not be able to turn round and say “actually, we didn’t mean any of it”. They won’t want to and even if they did no-one will believe them.

    But, have the Conservatives simply not gone where the voters have gone?

    I now think this has all been a very long time coming. Economic growth dropped sharply across the West after 2000 (compared to the 1950-2000 period) ; the Great Financial Crash discredited the political class in most countries, and a lot of people in wealthier countries have been pushing back against globalisation. The United Kingdom fits in with other Western countries, instead of standing out.

    Yep - the Tories have gone where 35% of mostly older, English voters are. It should win them the next election. It’s the one after that which is interesting. What we know for sure is that Johnson’s party will not be the socially liberal, centrist entity DavidL thinks it will be.

    Which suggests the next non Tory government may be a Liberal Democrat led one rather than a Labour one
    Do you mean you expect the next PM to be Corbyn, and that he will be followed by Swinson?

    Careful, the likes of Francois will be after you! Treason!!
    No, I think Boris will win the next general election and the likeliest next elected non Tory PM is Chuka Umunna
  • I use Firefox
  • I use Firefox

    I'm on Microsoft Edge
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    nico67 said:

    Younger people need to take back control and vote .

    Other wise their future will once again be decided by the over 65s who having screwed them with Brexit will screw them with a lunatic right wing Tory government .

    Your recommendation being choose a lunatic far left wing government to screw them?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    I've a feeling Corbyn is going to outperform.

    More than a feeling. I watched him twice this week, once at the Labour Conference and once in the House of Commons. Compared with his ratings he vastly out-performed. He was really rather good at times, especially when exposing the tories for hypocrisy.

    I think he will take down Johnson who in turn will get very nasty back (IRA etc.).

    It's going to be vicious.

    p.s. I'm a Lib Dem member but I'm betting accordingly on Corbyn's Labour doing better than current polling.

    Depends which polling, some polls have Labour 11% behind the Tories and tied with the LDs, others have Labour tied with the Tories.

    However all have Corbyn well behind Boris as preferred PM, indeed most now have Corbyn trailing Swinson too and historically the best PM rating has been the best indicator of the general election winner rather than headline voting intention
  • One half of Scotlands shame 1 nil up against the Dons - I'll let you know if big man Cosgrove and co make a comeback
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478

    I've a feeling Corbyn is going to outperform.

    More than a feeling. I watched him twice this week, once at the Labour Conference and once in the House of Commons. Compared with his ratings he vastly out-performed. He was really rather good at times, especially when exposing the tories for hypocrisy.

    I think he will take down Johnson who in turn will get very nasty back (IRA etc.).

    It's going to be vicious.

    p.s. I'm a Lib Dem member but I'm betting accordingly on Corbyn's Labour doing better than current polling.

    One of the features of contemporary politics is that several of those at the top, especially, at the moment and in the recent past of the Tories have never had the useful experience of losing. Cameron went from Oxford to safe job, to another safe job and then to a safe seat. He had to fight bit, sometimes, but he always won. When he lost he didn't really know what to do! Same applies to Johnson; although he was sacked a couple of times he was always able to land on his feet. A carried VONC and relegation to the other side of the House could well be a wounding blow to his self esteem, which might affect him in all sorts of ways.
  • One half of Scotlands shame 1 nil up against the Dons - I'll let you know if big man Cosgrove and co make a comeback

    I am a jinx

    Rangers 2 Aberdeen 0
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I'm on Microsoft Edge

    So you're the one...
  • I use Firefox

    I'm on Microsoft Edge
    A lot of people on the internet seem to be on edge these days...oh are we talking about broswers.
  • Scott_P said:

    I'm on Microsoft Edge

    So you're the one...
    Works fine for all the stuff I require - I find the other ones more problematic
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: suspect value may be hard to find. Might see what odds a Verstappen podium.

    FPT: thanks, Miss JGP. I was a bit surprised the article went up so quickly as it's less time dependent than the Ipsus article I wrote a few weeks ago.

    I’m with you on being utterly confused as to what might happen in the race tomorrow. The weather could be anything (and the forecasters were wrong about it raining today). I can’t see past either Leclerc or Hamilton for the win, depending on which strategy is faster.

    Am thinking of small-stakes silly bets like 50/50 on the safety car, Kvyat and Albon to score points from the back, Mercedes to outscore Ferrari, lay Verstappen for top 6...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    I've a feeling Corbyn is going to outperform.

    More than a feeling. I watched him twice this week, once at the Labour Conference and once in the House of Commons. Compared with his ratings he vastly out-performed. He was really rather good at times, especially when exposing the tories for hypocrisy.

    I think he will take down Johnson who in turn will get very nasty back (IRA etc.).

    It's going to be vicious.

    p.s. I'm a Lib Dem member but I'm betting accordingly on Corbyn's Labour doing better than current polling.

    One of the features of contemporary politics is that several of those at the top, especially, at the moment and in the recent past of the Tories have never had the useful experience of losing. Cameron went from Oxford to safe job, to another safe job and then to a safe seat. He had to fight bit, sometimes, but he always won. When he lost he didn't really know what to do! Same applies to Johnson; although he was sacked a couple of times he was always able to land on his feet. A carried VONC and relegation to the other side of the House could well be a wounding blow to his self esteem, which might affect him in all sorts of ways.
    Far from it, as leader of the largest party in the Commons Boris would be the most powerful leader of the Opposition in the last century and could VONC constantly the weak new PM at his will, as soon as that new PM had extended hard to see them lasting long therefore
  • Sandpit said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: suspect value may be hard to find. Might see what odds a Verstappen podium.

    FPT: thanks, Miss JGP. I was a bit surprised the article went up so quickly as it's less time dependent than the Ipsus article I wrote a few weeks ago.

    I’m with you on being utterly confused as to what might happen in the race tomorrow. The weather could be anything (and the forecasters were wrong about it raining today). I can’t see past either Leclerc or Hamilton for the win, depending on which strategy is faster.

    Am thinking of small-stakes silly bets like 50/50 on the safety car, Kvyat and Albon to score points from the back, Mercedes to outscore Ferrari, lay Verstappen for top 6...
    I hope that Verstappen lay was a joke - and if it was it was very deftly done
  • Mr. Sandpit, safety car timing could be critical. In the soft tyre pit window, it'd screw Mercedes. If in the medium tyre window, it'd help them a lot.

    Verstappen could do well, if he starts reasonably.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    HYUFD said:

    I've a feeling Corbyn is going to outperform.

    More than a feeling. I watched him twice this week, once at the Labour Conference and once in the House of Commons. Compared with his ratings he vastly out-performed. He was really rather good at times, especially when exposing the tories for hypocrisy.

    I think he will take down Johnson who in turn will get very nasty back (IRA etc.).

    It's going to be vicious.

    p.s. I'm a Lib Dem member but I'm betting accordingly on Corbyn's Labour doing better than current polling.

    One of the features of contemporary politics is that several of those at the top, especially, at the moment and in the recent past of the Tories have never had the useful experience of losing. Cameron went from Oxford to safe job, to another safe job and then to a safe seat. He had to fight bit, sometimes, but he always won. When he lost he didn't really know what to do! Same applies to Johnson; although he was sacked a couple of times he was always able to land on his feet. A carried VONC and relegation to the other side of the House could well be a wounding blow to his self esteem, which might affect him in all sorts of ways.
    Far from it, as leader of the largest party in the Commons Boris would be the most powerful leader of the Opposition in the last century and could VONC constantly the weak new PM at his will, as soon as that new PM had extended hard to see them lasting long therefore
    My point is that I doubt being in Opposition will suit Johnson's temperament, along with the blow to his self-esteem in having to move out of 10 Downing Street before Carrie's had time to order the new curtains.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    i can only see the comments in PB using Vanilla today - is that just me?

    It's working fine for me using the green app
    Green app? Normally I just go to politicalbetting.com, but today once the leading article has displayed it just loops instead of showing the comments below the line. Any suggestions?
    It's certainly behaving oddly today. Try going to 'recent discussions" and clicking on Tommyknockers.
    That works on Vanilla. I don't see a "recent discussions" button on the usual site. But thanks to you and JBriskin. Will read the vanilla site for now and hope it clears up.
    Working fine for me on Safari.

    (Not 'on safari', sadly.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    HYUFD said:

    I've a feeling Corbyn is going to outperform.

    More than a feeling. I watched him twice this week, once at the Labour Conference and once in the House of Commons. Compared with his ratings he vastly out-performed. He was really rather good at times, especially when exposing the tories for hypocrisy.

    I think he will take down Johnson who in turn will get very nasty back (IRA etc.).

    It's going to be vicious.

    p.s. I'm a Lib Dem member but I'm betting accordingly on Corbyn's Labour doing better than current polling.

    One of the features of contemporary politics is that several of those at the top, especially, at the moment and in the recent past of the Tories have never had the useful experience of losing. Cameron went from Oxford to safe job, to another safe job and then to a safe seat. He had to fight bit, sometimes, but he always won. When he lost he didn't really know what to do! Same applies to Johnson; although he was sacked a couple of times he was always able to land on his feet. A carried VONC and relegation to the other side of the House could well be a wounding blow to his self esteem, which might affect him in all sorts of ways.
    Far from it, as leader of the largest party in the Commons Boris would be the most powerful leader of the Opposition in the last century and could VONC constantly the weak new PM at his will, as soon as that new PM had extended hard to see them lasting long therefore
    My point is that I doubt being in Opposition will suit Johnson's temperament, along with the blow to his self-esteem in having to move out of 10 Downing Street before Carrie's had time to order the new curtains.
    Far from it, being leader of the opposition against a week government united by little except stopping Brexit will be ideal for the populist campaign Boris is running and he would likely be back in No 10 having won a general election within a few months anyway
  • Interesting ruminations from Andrew Neil:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1177909845527318528
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    edited September 2019
    Meeks used to write half way decent thread headers. Now he just writes extremist partisan diatribes to match the garbage he posts below the line.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    .

    Interesting ruminations from Andrew Neil:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1177909845527318528

    I wish they'd drop the government of national unity phrase. Government of remainers, perhaps.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    Interesting ruminations from Andrew Neil:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1177909845527318528

    Cannot see Labour MPs like Kinnock and Snell and Nandy and Flint who oppose No Deal backing a second referendum, nor Tory MPs like Gauke and Soames either
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Interesting ruminations from Andrew Neil:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1177909845527318528

    A potentially great outcome imo...

    ... sadly, it feels unlikely. There's the small matter of what policies other than extend and 2nd ref it could agree on.
  • Meeks used to write half way decent thread headers. Now he just writes extremist partisan diatribes.

    His first blobby graph thread METHs thread was good
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    RobD said:

    .

    Interesting ruminations from Andrew Neil:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1177909845527318528

    I wish they'd drop the government of national unity phrase. Government of remainers, perhaps.
    Rebel Alliance!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627

    Sandpit said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: suspect value may be hard to find. Might see what odds a Verstappen podium.

    FPT: thanks, Miss JGP. I was a bit surprised the article went up so quickly as it's less time dependent than the Ipsus article I wrote a few weeks ago.

    I’m with you on being utterly confused as to what might happen in the race tomorrow. The weather could be anything (and the forecasters were wrong about it raining today). I can’t see past either Leclerc or Hamilton for the win, depending on which strategy is faster.

    Am thinking of small-stakes silly bets like 50/50 on the safety car, Kvyat and Albon to score points from the back, Mercedes to outscore Ferrari, lay Verstappen for top 6...
    I hope that Verstappen lay was a joke - and if it was it was very deftly done
    Not a joke, remember he starts 10th with a grid penalty. He’ll be heavily odds-on to do it, and there’s more chance of him messing up from the midfield. He got stuck in 8th last time he started out of position, couldn’t pass the McLarens.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    RobD said:

    .

    Interesting ruminations from Andrew Neil:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1177909845527318528

    I wish they'd drop the government of national unity phrase. Government of remainers, perhaps.
    Coup of Remainers is much nearer. They mostly don't have any democratic mandte for such a course.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    I use Firefox

    I'm on Microsoft Edge
    Pervert.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I've a feeling Corbyn is going to outperform.

    More than a feeling. I watched him twice this week, once at the Labour Conference and once in the House of Commons. Compared with his ratings he vastly out-performed. He was really rather good at times, especially when exposing the tories for hypocrisy.

    I think he will take down Johnson who in turn will get very nasty back (IRA etc.).

    It's going to be vicious.

    p.s. I'm a Lib Dem member but I'm betting accordingly on Corbyn's Labour doing better than current polling.

    One of the features of contemporary politics is that several of those at the top, especially, at the moment and in the recent past of the Tories have never had the useful experience of losing. Cameron went from Oxford to safe job, to another safe job and then to a safe seat. He had to fight bit, sometimes, but he always won. When he lost he didn't really know what to do! Same applies to Johnson; although he was sacked a couple of times he was always able to land on his feet. A carried VONC and relegation to the other side of the House could well be a wounding blow to his self esteem, which might affect him in all sorts of ways.
    Far from it, as leader of the largest party in the Commons Boris would be the most powerful leader of the Opposition in the last century and could VONC constantly the weak new PM at his will, as soon as that new PM had extended hard to see them lasting long therefore
    My point is that I doubt being in Opposition will suit Johnson's temperament, along with the blow to his self-esteem in having to move out of 10 Downing Street before Carrie's had time to order the new curtains.
    Far from it, being leader of the opposition against a week government united by little except stopping Brexit will be ideal for the populist campaign Boris is running and he would likely be back in No 10 having won a general election within a few months anyway
    Unless he was in prison of course. :wink:
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: suspect value may be hard to find. Might see what odds a Verstappen podium.

    FPT: thanks, Miss JGP. I was a bit surprised the article went up so quickly as it's less time dependent than the Ipsus article I wrote a few weeks ago.

    I’m with you on being utterly confused as to what might happen in the race tomorrow. The weather could be anything (and the forecasters were wrong about it raining today). I can’t see past either Leclerc or Hamilton for the win, depending on which strategy is faster.

    Am thinking of small-stakes silly bets like 50/50 on the safety car, Kvyat and Albon to score points from the back, Mercedes to outscore Ferrari, lay Verstappen for top 6...
    I hope that Verstappen lay was a joke - and if it was it was very deftly done
    Not a joke, remember he starts 10th with a grid penalty. He’ll be heavily odds-on to do it, and there’s more chance of him messing up from the midfield. He got stuck in 8th last time he started out of position, couldn’t pass the McLarens.
    Don't do it!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    .

    RobD said:

    .

    Interesting ruminations from Andrew Neil:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1177909845527318528

    I wish they'd drop the government of national unity phrase. Government of remainers, perhaps.
    Rebel Alliance!
    Rebel scum. :p
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I've a feeling Corbyn is going to outperform.

    More than a feeling. I watched him twice this week, once at the Labour Conference and once in the House of Commons. Compared with his ratings he vastly out-performed. He was really rather good at times, especially when exposing the tories for hypocrisy.

    I think he will take down Johnson who in turn will get very nasty back (IRA etc.).

    It's going to be vicious.

    p.s. I'm a Lib Dem member but I'm betting accordingly on Corbyn's Labour doing better than current polling.

    One of the features of contemporary politics is that several of those at the top, especially, at the moment and in the recent past of the Tories have never had the useful experience of losing. Cameron went from Oxford to safe job, to another safe job and then to a safe seat. He had to fight bit, sometimes, but he always won. When he lost he didn't really know what to do! Same applies to Johnson; although he was sacked a couple of times he was always able to land on his feet. A carried VONC and relegation to the other side of the House could well be a wounding blow to his self esteem, which might affect him in all sorts of ways.
    Far from it, as leader of the largest party in the Commons Boris would be the most powerful leader of the Opposition in the last century and could VONC constantly the weak new PM at his will, as soon as that new PM had extended hard to see them lasting long therefore
    My point is that I doubt being in Opposition will suit Johnson's temperament, along with the blow to his self-esteem in having to move out of 10 Downing Street before Carrie's had time to order the new curtains.
    Far from it, being leader of the opposition against a week government united by little except stopping Brexit will be ideal for the populist campaign Boris is running and he would likely be back in No 10 having won a general election within a few months anyway
    Unless he was in prison of course. :wink:
    In which case he would be a martyr for Brexiteers
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    .

    Interesting ruminations from Andrew Neil:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1177909845527318528

    I wish they'd drop the government of national unity phrase. Government of remainers, perhaps.
    Coup of Remainers is much nearer. They mostly don't have any democratic mandte for such a course.
    I would never have guessed that "respecting the referendum result" meant having a whole new referendum in a blatant attempt to annul the first one.
  • A Tories are crap thread. A welcome change from the Brexit is crap threads we normally get from our guest contributors

    As PG Wodehouse once said:

    “A certain critic -- for such men, I regret to say, do exist -- made the nasty remark about my last novel that it contained 'all the old Wodehouse characters under different names.' He has probably by now been eaten by bears, like the children who made mock of the prophet Elisha: but if he still survives he will not be able to make a similar charge against Summer Lightning. With my superior intelligence, I have out-generalled the man this time by putting in all the old Wodehouse characters under the same names. Pretty silly it will make him feel, I rather fancy.”
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    RobD said:

    .

    Interesting ruminations from Andrew Neil:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1177909845527318528

    I wish they'd drop the government of national unity phrase. Government of remainers, perhaps.
    Coup of Remainers is much nearer. They mostly don't have any democratic mandte for such a course.
    It is normal in parliamentary democracies for alternative majorities to form governments. See Italy.

    There is no ‘coup’ about it.
  • PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    Good article Alastair
    I think how the LibDems answer your question will go a long way to determining who wins our bet on St Albans !
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I've a feeling Corbyn is going to outperform.

    More than a feeling. I watched him twice this week, once at the Labour Conference and once in the House of Commons. Compared with his ratings he vastly out-performed. He was really rather good at times, especially when exposing the tories for hypocrisy.

    I think he will take down Johnson who in turn will get very nasty back (IRA etc.).

    It's going to be vicious.

    p.s. I'm a Lib Dem member but I'm betting accordingly on Corbyn's Labour doing better than current polling.

    One of the features of contemporary politics is that several of those at the top, especially, at the moment and in the recent past of the Tories have never had the useful experience of losing. Cameron went from Oxford to safe job, to another safe job and then to a safe seat. He had to fight bit, sometimes, but he always won. When he lost he didn't really know what to do! Same applies to Johnson; although he was sacked a couple of times he was always able to land on his feet. A carried VONC and relegation to the other side of the House could well be a wounding blow to his self esteem, which might affect him in all sorts of ways.
    Far from it, as leader of the largest party in the Commons Boris would be the most powerful leader of the Opposition in the last century and could VONC constantly the weak new PM at his will, as soon as that new PM had extended hard to see them lasting long therefore
    My point is that I doubt being in Opposition will suit Johnson's temperament, along with the blow to his self-esteem in having to move out of 10 Downing Street before Carrie's had time to order the new curtains.
    Far from it, being leader of the opposition against a week government united by little except stopping Brexit will be ideal for the populist campaign Boris is running and he would likely be back in No 10 having won a general election within a few months anyway
    We shall see; you may of course be right. But I suspect he would find himself going over the top and losing even such representatives of the Right as the Mail and Express. The last thing the readers of such would want is violence in the streets, especially when it was from their own side.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    I use Firefox

    I'm on Microsoft Edge
    "Come quick, everybody! We've found him! Over here, over here!"

    (Overhead the helicopters wheeled towards the spot, searchlights swinging to the position...)

    :)

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    For understandable reasons this thread header looks through the polarised prism of Brexit. But nothing lasts forever, even if it feels like it. If we can move past this I think that we will find Boris a fairly centrist and liberal PM, more inclined to spend than the average Tory, socially liberal and pretty content with the status quo. Such a party will welcome back the likes of David Herdson, TSE, Richard and possibly even David Gauke

    Johnson was a liberal Tory when it suited him. Now over half his cabinet voted against gay marriage and his MPs believe the government should have the right to close Parliament for as long as it wishes. Meanwhile, in Tory constituency parties the hard right is in the ascendent - Parliamentary candidates will do as they are told or be deselected. Even if Johnson wanted to take the party back to the centre he couldn’t. As Alastair says, there is no coming back from this. When Brexit is done the Tories will not be able to turn round and say “actually, we didn’t mean any of it”. They won’t want to and even if they did no-one will believe them.

    But, have the Conservatives simply not gone where the voters have gone?

    I now think this has all been a very long time coming. Economic growth dropped sharply across the West after 2000 (compared to the 1950-2000 period) ; the Great Financial Crash discredited the political class in most countries, and a lot of people in wealthier countries have been pushing back against globalisation. The United Kingdom fits in with other Western countries, instead of standing out.
    Of course in 2001 and 2005 the Tories also ran pretty populist campaigns against the EU and the Euro and immigration under Hague and Howard while Blair presented himself as leader of a sound competent New Labour government even before the crash
    And, they failed. Now public opinion has moved towards where the Conservatives were in 2001 and 2005 (and also moved towards the Labour left position). Blair would crash and burn today.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I've a feeling Corbyn is going to outperform.

    More than a feeling. I watched him twice this week, once at the Labour Conference and once in the House of Commons. Compared with his ratings he vastly out-performed. He was really rather good at times, especially when exposing the tories for hypocrisy.

    I think he will take down Johnson who in turn will get very nasty back (IRA etc.).

    It's going to be vicious.

    p.s. I'm a Lib Dem member but I'm betting accordingly on Corbyn's Labour doing better than current polling.

    One of the features of contemporary politics is that several of those at the top, especially, at the moment and in the recent past of the Tories have never had the useful experience of losing. Cameron went from Oxford to safe job, to another safe job and then to a safe seat. He had to fight bit, sometimes, but he always won. When he lost he didn't really know what to do! Same applies to Johnson; although he was sacked a couple of times he was always able to land on his feet. A carried VONC and relegation to the other side of the House could well be a wounding blow to his self esteem, which might affect him in all sorts of ways.
    Far from it, as leader of the largest party in the Commons Boris would be the most powerful leader of the Opposition in the last century and could VONC constantly the weak new PM at his will, as soon as that new PM had extended hard to see them lasting long therefore
    My point is that I doubt being in Opposition will suit Johnson's temperament, along with the blow to his self-esteem in having to move out of 10 Downing Street before Carrie's had time to order the new curtains.
    Far from it, being leader of the opposition against a week government united by little except stopping Brexit will be ideal for the populist campaign Boris is running and he would likely be back in No 10 having won a general election within a few months anyway
    Unless he was in prison of course. :wink:
    In which case he would be a martyr for Brexiteers
    What would you think if the H of C reduced BJ salary for the job of PM to zero? Given BJ has wasted £100 million on No Deal advertising I think it would be fitting that BJ and perhaps Gove feel financial pain for their bad decisions. I say cut the PMs pay as a final warning shot before removal from office... :smiley:
  • What could it be that led a handful of swivel-eyed members of the far left to seek the deselection of female, Jewish MP Margaret Hodge?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,213
    PaulM said:

    Good article Alastair
    I think how the LibDems answer your question will go a long way to determining who wins our bet on St Albans !

    I make St Albans turning yellow highly likely even if the Tories are near 400 seats.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I've a feeling Corbyn is going to outperform.

    More than a feeling. I watched him twice this week, once at the Labour Conference and once in the House of Commons. Compared with his ratings he vastly out-performed. He was really rather good at times, especially when exposing the tories for hypocrisy.

    I think he will take down Johnson who in turn will get very nasty back (IRA etc.).

    It's going to be vicious.

    p.s. I'm a Lib Dem member but I'm betting accordingly on Corbyn's Labour doing better than current polling.

    One of the features of contemporary politics is that several of those at the top, especially, at the moment and in the recent past of the Tories have never had the useful experience of losing. Cameron went from Oxford to safe job, to another safe job and then to a safe seat. He had to fight bit, sometimes, but he always won. When he lost he didn't really know what to do! Same applies to Johnson; although he was sacked a couple of times he was always able to land on his feet. A carried VONC and relegation to the other side of the House could well be a wounding blow to his self esteem, which might affect him in all sorts of ways.
    Far from it, as leader of the largest party in the Commons Boris would be the most powerful leader of the Opposition in the last century and could VONC constantly the weak new PM at his will, as soon as that new PM had extended hard to see them lasting long therefore
    My point is that I doubt being in Opposition will suit Johnson's temperament, along with the blow to his self-esteem in having to move out of 10 Downing Street before Carrie's had time to order the new curtains.
    Far from it, being leader of the opposition against a week government united by little except stopping Brexit will be ideal for the populist campaign Boris is running and he would likely be back in No 10 having won a general election within a few months anyway
    Unless he was in prison of course. :wink:
    In which case he would be a martyr for Brexiteers
    Excellent. Let Brexiteers worship at the altar of St. Boris while the rest of us just get on with, you know, having a life.
This discussion has been closed.