If the Tories win another 30 seats they will now be able to go No Deal under a manifesto promise. Or overturn a revocation of Article 50 without a further Referendum.
That is what the LibDem policy opens up.
I think those outcomes are already opened up.
The Tories are threatening to go No Deal having been elected under the *current* manifesto, which promised a deal.
And if PM Swinson proposed a referendum between Remain and a deal negotiated by PM Swinson, and the Tories thought it was electorally advantageous to keep pushing Brexit, do you really think they'd propose a *third* referendum? Wouldn't they just boycott the second one and promise to implement the first?
Most interesting aspect of both the Luton and Ipswich results yesterday was the rise in the Lib Dem percentage ie 12% and 10%, in seats where they were way behind, fourth place in Ipswich, have occurred since May of this year, that is quite dramatic.
Thatill be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If thct either!
Pree gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
lol. Me?
Crazed Lib Dems like you need to reflect on the fact that even Caroline Lucas - yes, Caroline Lucas - thinks the Revoke policy is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous"
If the LDs win another 300+ seats and form a government under that manifesto promise they will have every right to revoke!
If seems to be a doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
If the Tories win another 30 seats they will now be able to go No Deal under a manifesto promise. Or overturn a revocation of Article 50 without a further Referendum.
That is what the LibDem policy opens up.
Of course. But again these Revoker Fascists, like Topping, Noo, and Meeks, don't care.
Madness.
Another point about Revoke, which we haven't discussed, is how it will play in an election. We're all presuming the positioning is great, is it? Every other party leader - even Lucas! - will round on Swinson as being the undemocratic snob who cancels votes. It's a really bad look. And she hasn't got a comeback.
As well as being a hostage to fortune, Revoke puts a ceiling on the Lib vote, a ceiling which was entirely unnecessary. Good tactics, terrible strategy.
If you can find a post of mine where I advocate revoke then I will pay you £100.
I suspect this is where it will end up . If the Lib Dems , PC and independents who are anti no deal really want to stop it they’re going to have to put up with Corbyn.
If they refuse to do that then they can explain to their voters why they allowed the UK to crash out when they could have stopped that .
And let’s be blunt given the cesspit that now passes as no 10 . Compared to Bozo at least Corbyn wouldn’t try and break the law . The more unhinged Bozo gets the better Corbyn looks.
That is correct.
The ridiculous Benn Act is about trying to evade this outcome.
The only alternative to Johnson on the timescale actually available is Corbyn.
It is No Deal or Corby
We’ve been assured that Boris is going to bring back a fantastic deal so why are you talking about no deal?
Because I am not gullible ?
Also, from being a moderately interesting poster who posted occasionally, you now post tedious garbage repetitively.
Your choice, of course. But, I thought you had an interesting law course to do ....
And now I must go and do my absorbing job.
It is true that the lawyers on here have almost abundant time to post -- many of the most prolific posters are lawyers -- it seems as though their jobs are not very demanding!
Luckily this week was induction week and today is a day off but thank you for your concern.
What this shows is nothing really matters, and the public will always split along tribal lines within a week of any policy or political event no matter how big.
Can you show me where in the judgment by the Supreme Court they said Boris Johnson misled the Queen?
It didn't... though what other inferences would you draw from this ?
It is impossible for us to conclude, on the evidence which has been put before us, that there was any reason - let alone a good reason - to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament for five weeks, from 9th or 12th September until 14th October. We cannot speculate, in the absence of further evidence, upon what such reasons might have been. It follows that the decision was unlawful.
<<Well I am discussing political life this decade, not the last century, but the fact that the EU didn’t tip concerns in opinion polls, while all the issues that drive people to vote leave did, is your answer. >>
This is because around 2014 Farage very consciously and carefully weaponised the issue of immigration to raise Europe up the list of concerns, as he himself as he has said. What he did was very successfully leverage a large latent vote against multi-racialism and multi-culturalism to raise what had been a second-order issue.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
How do you know, Bev? No one in Britain has ever just cancelled a referendum before, probably because it's insane, but hey, what do I know, let's play a mindgame and see what might happen.
Imagine that the indy vote in Scotland went narrowly YES. Now, imagine that 3 years later the Scots parliament at Holyrood was refusing to enact that YES vote, and now imagine that it was proposed to simply revoke the YES vote, and carry on, as before, with Scotland firmly and forever in the UK.
What do you think would happen in Scotland, in that situation? Do you think all the passionate indy voters, having heroically won their referendum, would then say, Ah well, look. that wee Jo Swinson is going tae cancel oor vote! Mustn't grumble. These things happen! Let's naw complain.
Because that is what you are predicting for Britain after Revoke.
Genius Cummings has seen all his recent cunning plans fail spectacularly and now appears to be intent on pissing off the body needed to pass the deal he regards as easy to get. He certainly appears to be operating on a level very different to everyone else.
He is a clown, despite fan boys on here spouting how clever he was , reality points a different picture. Just another donkey that got lucky once. Thicker than one of Jack's famous pies and not near as tasty.
I thank the Right Honourable Gentleman for Ayrshire Rural Turnip South for his ringing endorsement of the nations finest pastry and meat comestible and look forward to his support in the coming years.
...Another point about Revoke, which we haven't discussed, is how it will play in an election. We're all presuming the positioning is great, is it? Every other party leader - even Lucas! - will round on Swinson as being the undemocratic snob who cancels votes. It's a really bad look. And she hasn't got a comeback.
As well as being a hostage to fortune, Revoke puts a ceiling on the Lib vote, a ceiling which was entirely unnecessary. Good tactics, terrible strategy.
On that basis, how could you possibly predict, fear, or be outraged at the possibility of their achieving a majority at the next election ?
FWIW I am not sure what I would do in the final forced choice, though I see Stephen Tall’s logic in his follow-up tweet.
I see his logic but I think he is wrong. Corbyn too has contaminated Labour. I don't see the evidence for saying that Labour has either restrained him until now or will do so once in government.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Well 1 million of the 17.4m will have absolutely no trouble accepting it as they're dead. Your also forgetting b the 1 million who have never been asked their opinion.
I did not forget them - I just worked with the numbers from 2016. I have no doubt that the numbers you raise are why ardent Leavers are so terrified of a 2nd ref.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
lol. Me?
Crazed Lib Dems like you need to reflect on the fact that even Caroline Lucas - yes, Caroline Lucas - thinks the Revoke policy is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous"
We return to the situation that provoked the rise in Euroscepticism. Do the same thing and expect a different result is unadulterated madness.
This madness is increased when a little future gazing is added. The core EU zone will obviously act in a way that is to the advantage of the Euro, increasing the potential for our outrage and discontent. If there is additional centralisation, that will always be well received in UK.
If we revoke to have any chance of a good relationship with our EU partners we have to go in, Euro, Schengen and be a committed part of the project. That is the only sustainable in position.
I really don't want more years of bickering discontented membership.
Either properly In, No Deal Out, EEA or EFTA are all preferable to revoke.
What this shows is nothing really matters, and the public will always split along tribal lines within a week of any policy or political event no matter how big.
Can you show me where in the judgment by the Supreme Court they said Boris Johnson misled the Queen?
It didn't... though what other inferences would you draw from this ?
It is impossible for us to conclude, on the evidence which has been put before us, that there was any reason - let alone a good reason - to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament for five weeks, from 9th or 12th September until 14th October. We cannot speculate, in the absence of further evidence, upon what such reasons might have been. It follows that the decision was unlawful.
Like the Supreme Court I cannot speculate.
Unlike the Supreme Court, of course you can, whether or not you choose to refrain from doing so.
If the Tories win another 30 seats they will now be able to go No Deal under a manifesto promise. Or overturn a revocation of Article 50 without a further Referendum.
That is what the LibDem policy opens up.
I think those outcomes are already opened up.
The Tories are threatening to go No Deal having been elected under the *current* manifesto, which promised a deal.
And if PM Swinson proposed a referendum between Remain and a deal negotiated by PM Swinson, and the Tories thought it was electorally advantageous to keep pushing Brexit, do you really think they'd propose a *third* referendum? Wouldn't they just boycott the second one and promise to implement the first?
But Swinson has given the Tories the political cover that they may not have had before. And a majority for the forces of Leave is more likely than a majority for Swinson.
FWIW I am not sure what I would do in the final forced choice, though I see Stephen Tall’s logic in his follow-up tweet.
I see his logic but I think he is wrong. Corbyn too has contaminated Labour. I don't see the evidence for saying that Labour has either restrained him until now or will do so once in government.
He has, but that’s priced in. Corbyn 2019 is essentially the same as Corbyn 2017.
Thatill be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If thct either!
Pree gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
lol. Me?
Crazed Lib Dems like you need to reflect on the fact that even Caroline Lucas - yes, Caroline Lucas - thinks the Revoke policy is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous"
If the LDs win another 300+ seats and form a government under that manifesto promise they will have every right to revoke!
If seems to be a doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
If the Tories win another 30 seats they will now be able to go No Deal under a manifesto promise. Or overturn a revocation of Article 50 without a further Referendum.
That is what the LibDem policy opens up.
Of course. But again these Revoker Fascists, like Topping, Noo, and Meeks, don't care.
Madness.
Another point about Revoke, which we haven't discussed, is how it will play in an election. We're all presuming the positioning is great, is it? Every other party leader - even Lucas! - will round on Swinson as being the undemocratic snob who cancels votes. It's a really bad look. And she hasn't got a comeback.
As well as being a hostage to fortune, Revoke puts a ceiling on the Lib vote, a ceiling which was entirely unnecessary. Good tactics, terrible strategy.
If you can find a post of mine where I advocate revoke then I will pay you £100.
Other than that, good post.
Make your mind up, treacle.
You're defending Revoke downthread, now you say you don't advocate it.
I'm happy to take your name off the official list of PB Revoker Fascists if you explain where you stand.
You don't advocate Revoke. Why? Do you think it's mad, or just bad electoral politics?
On thread, council by-elections are fine but rarely point to anything
or
Leave the EU by voting Tory and have the inconvenience of having to stand for a wee while at customs when going on their 3 foreign holidays a year plus maybe not getting their favourite fruit out of natural season in the UK for a while.
Vote Tory = get Tory
Vote Labour = get Labour Vote Liberal = get Labour Vote SNP/PC/Brexit/Green = get Labour
Labour cannot win a majority and at best will have a C&S deal with the Lib Dems and SNP which will remove most contentious items from Labour's policy.
Basically it's vote Tory - pray Operation Yellowhammer is worse than reality (in the sectors I know personally it underplays possible issues). or vote Labour / Lib Dem and not leave under No Deal.
Except that those of us who follow the issues may believe that Labour can't win a majority, but frankly things arend.
I don't think so. There will be big swings in all sorts of seats when the election comes (I expect spring), but very much dependent on what happens in October.
Tories will be wiped out if No Deal happens, merely humbled if May's Deal passes, and probably survive an extension IMO.
Precisely the opposite, if it is No Deal the Tories win a big majority, if the Tories extend again they collapse behind Labour, maybe even behind the Brexit Party too.
May's Deal probably produces another hung parliament with the Tories largest party if it still has the backstop
Do you believe that anybody who says now that they will vote Conservative in the event of no deal may change their mind if the consequences of no deal are not exactly optimal?
I believe the Tories will remain the main right of centre party no matter what happens with No Deal with a good chance of a majority, if the Tories extend again the Tories have zero chance of a majority and I believe the Tories may well go extinct with the Brexit Party overtaking them as the main party of the right.
Those are the stakes and why fanatical diehard Remainers like Foxy must be ignored as they do not understand the fury of Leavers at all
Well you could just join TBP then all your mates would be there.
If the Tories win another 30 seats they will now be able to go No Deal under a manifesto promise. Or overturn a revocation of Article 50 without a further Referendum.
That is what the LibDem policy opens up.
I think those outcomes are already opened up.
The Tories are threatening to go No Deal having been elected under the *current* manifesto, which promised a deal.
And if PM Swinson proposed a referendum between Remain and a deal negotiated by PM Swinson, and the Tories thought it was electorally advantageous to keep pushing Brexit, do you really think they'd propose a *third* referendum? Wouldn't they just boycott the second one and promise to implement the first?
But Swinson has given the Tories the political cover that they may not have had before. And a majority for the forces of Leave is more likely than a majority for Swinson.
We are in a parliamentary democracy - remember? - if the Cons win a whopping overall majority they can legislate for just about anything they want, Brexit-wise.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
lol. Me?
Crazed Lib Dems like you need to reflect on the fact that even Caroline Lucas - yes, Caroline Lucas - thinks the Revoke policy is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous"
I would accept a coalition of parties implementing a policy of Revoke after between them securing a majority in a general election after standing on manifestos that committed them to that policy, on one condition. Namely that the result of the previous exercise in democracy had already been implemented and the UK had left.
In the case of the Liberals, their policy is inexcusable. At every stage they have sought to frustrate the vote of 2016. Their MPs weren't even able to bring themselves to vote for the very first step of triggering Article 50 back in 2017, even after repeatedly standing on and being elected on manifestos which promised a referendum on EU membership.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
Well since many of the Leavers thought we were still going to have at least an economic relationship with the EU and are not happy with no deal, and over a million of the 17.4 are no longer with us, I think your threats are dangerous drivel. The out and out lies render your vote at best highly questionable.
If the Lib Dems have won the election, its a material change of circumstances, and the more bile you pour, they more likely it is that the whole country recognizes that Brexit is a catastrophe that has been orchestrated by some very sinister bodies and which now needs to be stopped.
One thing about the forthcoming GE is the troop numbers. Lib Dems send tonnes of bumpf through letterboxes, and though I think plenty of Labour activists are sinfully lazy (Or the concentration is massively city focussed) with a membership of half a million or so they must be able to muster some sort of ground game.
The Tories are very motivated too at the moment - but the Brexit party, well how many people do they have willing to deliver and knock ?! They'll probably end up paying for delivery of leaflets and that will eat heftily into the budgets everyone needs to adheer to.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
How do you know, Bev? No one in Britain has ever just cancelled a referendum before, probably because it's insane, but hey, what do I know, let's play a mindgame and see what might happen.
Imagine that the indy vote in Scotland went narrowly YES. Now, imagine that 3 years later the Scots parliament at Holyrood was refusing to enact that YES vote, and now imagine that it was proposed to simply revoke the YES vote, and carry on, as before, with Scotland firmly and forever in the UK.
What do you think would happen in Scotland, in that situation? Do you think all the passionate indy voters, having heroically won their referendum, would then say, Ah well, look. that wee Jo Swinson is going tae cancel oor vote! Mustn't grumble. These things happen! Let's naw complain.
Because that is what you are predicting for Britain after Revoke.
Scotland would be plunged into civil war, with a Scottish version of the IRA
You're defending Revoke downthread, now you say you don't advocate it.
I'm happy to take your name off the official list of PB Revoker Fascists if you explain where you stand.
You don't advocate Revoke. Why? Do you think it's mad, or just bad electoral politics?
You really are quite dim. All those endorphins following your gym workouts are clouding your limited judgement. I said that if the LDs advocate Revoke and they win a parliamentary majority then it would be legitimate because that's how our parliamentary system works. The winner gets to do stuff it wants.
I happen to disagree with revoke because I think the referendum should be honoured. Until I actually read the respective manifestos, I also believed that no deal was a legitimate outcome as it honoured the vote in 2016 where no specific flavour of leave was mentioned on the ballot paper. However that has been affected by the Conservatives' 2017 GE manifesto commitment to leave in an orderly manner, which imo can be read to rule out no deal.
I would try to draw this for you in crayons but sadly the limitations of PB mean I have to type it and as you are evidently no wordsmith I appreciate that you will struggle with this.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
Well since many of the Leavers thought we were still going to have at least an economic relationship with the EU and are not happy with no deal, and over a million of the 17.4 are no longer with us, I think your threats are dangerous drivel. The out and out lies render your vote at best highly questionable.
If the Lib Dems have won the election, its a material change of circumstances, and the more bile you pour, they more likely it is that the whole country recognizes that Brexit is a catastrophe that has been orchestrated by some very sinister bodies and which now needs to be stopped.
I know I am a very well regarded and high profile PB commenter, but I was unaware that I can personally sway the entire British electorate with my bile. Thanks.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
How do you know, Bev? No one in Britain has ever just cancelled a referendum before, probably because it's insane, but hey, what do I know, let's play a mindgame and see what might happen.
Imagine that the indy vote in Scotland went narrowly YES. Now, imagine that 3 years later the Scots parliament at Holyrood was refusing to enact that YES vote, and now imagine that it was proposed to simply revoke the YES vote, and carry on, as before, with Scotland firmly and forever in the UK.
What do you think would happen in Scotland, in that situation? Do you think all the passionate indy voters, having heroically won their referendum, would then say, Ah well, look. that wee Jo Swinson is going tae cancel oor vote! Mustn't grumble. These things happen! Let's naw complain.
Because that is what you are predicting for Britain after Revoke.
You don't have to imagine it or play mind games you just have to cast your mind back to the Scottish Parliament 1979 referendum (which quite ironically had 52% voting in favour)... But in those days we had sensible majority margins.
Most interesting aspect of both the Luton and Ipswich results yesterday was the rise in the Lib Dem percentage ie 12% and 10%, in seats where they were way behind, fourth place in Ipswich, have occurred since May of this year, that is quite dramatic.
These results do not bear out the large Tory lead found by the recent Yougov polls - they are much closer to the Survation poll. Interesting that in two out of the three seats in which all three parties stood the Tory vote share fell by more than the Labour vote share.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
How do you know, Bev? No one in Britain has ever just cancelled a referendum before, probably because it's insane, but hey, what do I know, let's play a mindgame and see what might happen.
Imagine that the indy vote in Scotland went narrowly YES. Now, imagine that 3 years later the Scots parliament at Holyrood was refusing to enact that YES vote, and now imagine that it was proposed to simply revoke the YES vote, and carry on, as before, with Scotland firmly and forever in the UK.
What do you think would happen in Scotland, in that situation? Do you think all the passionate indy voters, having heroically won their referendum, would then say, Ah well, look. that wee Jo Swinson is going tae cancel oor vote! Mustn't grumble. These things happen! Let's naw complain.
Because that is what you are predicting for Britain after Revoke.
Scotland would be plunged into civil war, with a Scottish version of the IRA
Exactly. And, so far, the British political experience post-Brexit has closely echoed the Scots experience post indyref, with the same polarisation, coarsening, and shoutiness, and the exact same swings between parties (towards the extremes of the issue).
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
How do you know, Bev? No one in Britain has ever just cancelled a referendum before, probably because it's insane, but hey, what do I know, let's play a mindgame and see what might happen.
Imagine that the indy vote in Scotland went narrowly YES. Now, imagine that 3 years later the Scots parliament at Holyrood was refusing to enact that YES vote, and now imagine that it was proposed to simply revoke the YES vote, and carry on, as before, with Scotland firmly and forever in the UK.
What do you think would happen in Scotland, in that situation? Do you think all the passionate indy voters, having heroically won their referendum, would then say, Ah well, look. that wee Jo Swinson is going tae cancel oor vote! Mustn't grumble. These things happen! Let's naw complain.
Because that is what you are predicting for Britain after Revoke.
You mean the 1979 Scottish Devolution referendum where Yes won 52-48 doesn't count as cancelled?
Btw just in case you decide on a future Scotch reincarnation, in Scots naw = no, no = not.
Last time we had a bet I lost plus I would like to see the framing of such a bet. But no, I am enough invested in the outcome of events as it is.
I’d say it’s a bet on
“The difference between the LibDem and Lab vote vs the difference between the Con and BXP vote at the next GE”
I’ll take Evens Con and BXP is bigger. Doesn’t have to be a big bet, just for fun.
OK so you think the Lab/LD votes will be closer than the Con/BXP votes. I will let you know if I take that bet on November 1st.
Ok, the odds might not be the same though
Huh? You said at the next GE and that your opinion was that that was what was going to happen. Why would that change over time before the GE (which we know can't be before Oct 31st)?
Unless.
The opinion was not fully formed so as to be worthless.
Imagine that the indy vote in Scotland went narrowly YES. Now, imagine that 3 years later the Scots parliament at Holyrood was refusing to enact that YES vote, and now imagine that it was proposed to simply revoke the YES vote, and carry on, as before, with Scotland firmly and forever in the UK.
The reason your Scottish scenario is ridiculous is that we only had the Scottish Independence referendum after the SNP won a Holyrood majority for Independence. So it's absurd to think that Holyrood would not then implement the referendum result. Indeed, they even had a detailed plan as to how to do so that they could unite around.
This is the crucial difference with the Brexit referendum. We should never have held a referendum proposing a change that there was not a majority to implement. It meant there was no plan as to how to do so. It was a fake referendum.
This makes it entirely legitimate to correct this original mistake by revoking Article 50. Leavers can then work to gain a Parliamentary majority for Leave, and it will be up to them if they think it will be politically better for them to have another referendum to confirm the decision.
It's mostly traceable to the fact that our majoritarian system doesn't really work if one Party doesn't have a clear majority in Parliament. It is arguable that giving the winning party a bonus of 100 party list MPs to get it there could give us the functioning government we used to have. And/or repealing the FTPA, which requires governments to limp on without the confidence of Parliament. But without that, we'll just have to get used to living with Governments in office but not in power.
Functioning governance is what we need. And it is FPTP that desperately needs to be scrapped.
Who knows, one of these centuries we might get a written constitution.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
How do you know, Bev? No one in Britain has ever just cancelled a referendum before, probably because it's insane, but hey, what do I know, let's play a mindgame and see what might happen.
Imagine that the indy vote in Scotland went narrowly YES. Now, imagine that 3 years later the Scots parliament at Holyrood was refusing to enact that YES vote, and now imagine that it was proposed to simply revoke the YES vote, and carry on, as before, with Scotland firmly and forever in the UK.
What do you think would happen in Scotland, in that situation? Do you think all the passionate indy voters, having heroically won their referendum, would then say, Ah well, look. that wee Jo Swinson is going tae cancel oor vote! Mustn't grumble. These things happen! Let's naw complain.
Because that is what you are predicting for Britain after Revoke.
Scotland would be plunged into civil war, with a Scottish version of the IRA
We already have 250+ marches a year by the proxy UDA, so I guess we're half way there.
What this shows is nothing really matters, and the public will always split along tribal lines within a week of any policy or political event no matter how big.
Can you show me where in the judgment by the Supreme Court they said Boris Johnson misled the Queen?
It didn’t - but it upheld the decision of the Court of Session, which did hold that he misled the Queen. Like most appeal courts the SC will not normally touch the findings of fact of the Court below, and will only rule on the its application of the law.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
How d
You mean the 1979 Scottish Devolution referendum where Yes won 52-48 doesn't count as cancelled?
Btw just in case you decide on a future Scotch reincarnation, in Scots naw = no, no = not.
Typo. I meant to write nae. I believe that is correct...
I'm right about Scotland in my mindgame, aren't I? If you'd voted YES and an incoming party tried to cancel it, there would be blood.
But of course it wouldn't happen, because no Scottish party would be mad enough to take on Scots voters in that way. The YES vote would be honoured, even if - as is likely - it plunged the nation into paupery.
All this silliness tells us one thing. Remainers STILL don't understand the Leave vote. They don't comprehend that it was, and is, visceral, cultural and emotional, not transactional.
Most interesting aspect of both the Luton and Ipswich results yesterday was the rise in the Lib Dem percentage ie 12% and 10%, in seats where they were way behind, fourth place in Ipswich, have occurred since May of this year, that is quite dramatic.
These results do not bear out the large Tory lead found by the recent Yougov polls - they are much closer to the Survation poll. Interesting that in two out of the three seats in which all three parties stood the Tory vote share fell by more than the Labour vote share.
That's not entirely correct. I mean its locals but in terms of last nights, the Tory gain and the Crawley hold are in line with a strong lead, Ipswich and Luton more like survation. This is a departure from recent weeks which were almost exclusively strong LD gain, slight Tory drop, Labour vote collapsing
What this shows is nothing really matters, and the public will always split along tribal lines within a week of any policy or political event no matter how big.
Can you show me where in the judgment by the Supreme Court they said Boris Johnson misled the Queen?
It didn’t - but it upheld the decision of the Court of Session, which did hold that he misled the Queen. Like most appeal courts the SC will not normally touch the findings of fact of the Court below, and will only rule on the its application of the law.
Indeed I was calling out the repeated fake news from the poster nunuone.
What this shows is nothing really matters, and the public will always split along tribal lines within a week of any policy or political event no matter how big.
Can you show me where in the judgment by the Supreme Court they said Boris Johnson misled the Queen?
It didn’t - but it upheld the decision of the Court of Session, which did hold that he misled the Queen. Like most appeal courts the SC will not normally touch the findings of fact of the Court below, and will only rule on the its application of the law.
Indeed I was calling out the repeated fake news from the poster nunuone.
You're defending Revoke downthread, now you say you don't advocate it.
I'm happy to take your name off the official list of PB Revoker Fascists if you explain where you stand.
You don't advocate Revoke. Why? Do you think it's mad, or just bad electoral politics?
You really are quite dim. All those endorphins following your gym workouts are clouding your limited judgement. I said that if the LDs advocate Revoke and they win a parliamentary majority then it would be legitimate because that's how our parliamentary system works. The winner gets to do stuff it wants.
I happen to disagree with revoke because I think the referendum should be honoured. Until I actually read the respective manifestos, I also believed that no deal was a legitimate outcome as it honoured the vote in 2016 where no specific flavour of leave was mentioned on the ballot paper. However that has been affected by the Conservatives' 2017 GE manifesto commitment to leave in an orderly manner, which imo can be read to rule out no deal.
I would try to draw this for you in crayons but sadly the limitations of PB mean I have to type it and as you are evidently no wordsmith I appreciate that you will struggle with this.
Fair nuff. That's a considered and cogent reply.
And now I weary of this. Once again. To work, to work. To dream, perchance to earn.
Last time we had a bet I lost plus I would like to see the framing of such a bet. But no, I am enough invested in the outcome of events as it is.
I’d say it’s a bet on
“The difference between the LibDem and Lab vote vs the difference between the Con and BXP vote at the next GE”
I’ll take Evens Con and BXP is bigger. Doesn’t have to be a big bet, just for fun.
OK so you think the Lab/LD votes will be closer than the Con/BXP votes. I will let you know if I take that bet on November 1st.
Ok, the odds might not be the same though
Huh? You said at the next GE and that your opinion was that that was what was going to happen. Why would that change over time before the GE (which we know can't be before Oct 31st)?
Unless.
The opinion was not fully formed so as to be worthless.
Yes that’s my opinion today and I’m willing to bet on it today at those odds. If the LDs decide on Oct 31 to only run one candidate at the next GE, I’m not going to offer you evens on the bet on Nov 1st. Funny that.
You seem in an argumentative mood, but don’t be silly, or provocative... it’s you who’s not putting up, not me.
You're defending Revoke downthread, now you say you don't advocate it.
I'm happy to take your name off the official list of PB Revoker Fascists if you explain where you stand.
You don't advocate Revoke. Why? Do you think it's mad, or just bad electoral politics?
You really are quite dim. All those endorphins following your gym workouts are clouding your limited judgement. I said that if the LDs advocate Revoke and they win a parliamentary majority then it would be legitimate because that's how our parliamentary system works. The winner gets to do stuff it wants.
I happen to disagree with revoke because I think the referendum should be honoured. Until I actually read the respective manifestos, I also believed that no deal was a legitimate outcome as it honoured the vote in 2016 where no specific flavour of leave was mentioned on the ballot paper. However that has been affected by the Conservatives' 2017 GE manifesto commitment to leave in an orderly manner, which imo can be read to rule out no deal.
I would try to draw this for you in crayons but sadly the limitations of PB mean I have to type it and as you are evidently no wordsmith I appreciate that you will struggle with this.
Fair nuff. That's a considered and cogent reply.
And now I weary of this. Once again. To work, to work. To dream, perchance to earn.
What this shows is nothing really matters, and the public will always split along tribal lines within a week of any policy or political event no matter how big.
Can you show me where in the judgment by the Supreme Court they said Boris Johnson misled the Queen?
It didn’t - but it upheld the decision of the Court of Session, which did hold that he misled the Queen. Like most appeal courts the SC will not normally touch the findings of fact of the Court below, and will only rule on the its application of the law.
Indeed I was calling out the repeated fake news from the poster nunuone.
Para 15 of the SC judgement is crystal clear - it makes no findings about what was said to HM the Queen by the PM or PC members. Para 15 ends with the words "We do not know what the Queen was told and we cannot draw any conclusions about it".
Most interesting aspect of both the Luton and Ipswich results yesterday was the rise in the Lib Dem percentage ie 12% and 10%, in seats where they were way behind, fourth place in Ipswich, have occurred since May of this year, that is quite dramatic.
These results do not bear out the large Tory lead found by the recent Yougov polls - they are much closer to the Survation poll. Interesting that in two out of the three seats in which all three parties stood the Tory vote share fell by more than the Labour vote share.
That's not entirely correct. I mean its locals but in terms of last nights, the Tory gain and the Crawley hold are in line with a strong lead, Ipswich and Luton more like survation. This is a departure from recent weeks which were almost exclusively strong LD gain, slight Tory drop, Labour vote collapsing
I don't disagree, but think we're all over-interpreting a few local polls with different parties standing and who knows what local factors. If the pattern repeats in the next couple of weeks it might show something.
Last time we had a bet I lost plus I would like to see the framing of such a bet. But no, I am enough invested in the outcome of events as it is.
I’d say it’s a bet on
“The difference between the LibDem and Lab vote vs the difference between the Con and BXP vote at the next GE”
I’ll take Evens Con and BXP is bigger. Doesn’t have to be a big bet, just for fun.
OK so you think the Lab/LD votes will be closer than the Con/BXP votes. I will let you know if I take that bet on November 1st.
Ok, the odds might not be the same though
Huh? You said at the next GE and that your opinion was that that was what was going to happen. Why would that change over time before the GE (which we know can't be before Oct 31st)?
Unless.
The opinion was not fully formed so as to be worthless.
Yes that’s my opinion today and I’m willing to bet on it today at those odds. If the LDs decide on Oct 31 to only run one candidate at the next GE, I’m not going to offer you evens on the bet on Nov 1st. Funny that.
You seem in an argumentative mood, but don’t be silly, or provocative... it’s you who’s not putting up, not me.
Point is, to take that bet you need to have a view on whether Boris no deals. For there to be a bigger discrepancy CONS/BXP there would I believe have to be no deal. So the bet is for there to be no deal. On bf the odds for no deal are 5.2.
Most interesting aspect of both the Luton and Ipswich results yesterday was the rise in the Lib Dem percentage ie 12% and 10%, in seats where they were way behind, fourth place in Ipswich, have occurred since May of this year, that is quite dramatic.
These results do not bear out the large Tory lead found by the recent Yougov polls - they are much closer to the Survation poll. Interesting that in two out dezof the three seats in which all three parties stood the Tory vote share fell by more than the Labour vote share.
That's not entirely correct. I mean its locals but in terms of last nights, the Tory gain and the Crawley hold are in line with a strong lead, Ipswich and Luton more like survation. This is a departure from recent weeks which were almost exclusively strong LD gain, slight Tory drop, Labour vote collapsing
I don't disagree, but think we're all over-interpreting a few local polls with different parties standing and who knows what local factors. If the pattern repeats in the next couple of weeks it might show something.
Yes extrapolating too far on bin collections is foolish but it does pass the minutes in bearable entertainment and interest!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
And a fair chunk of that third weren't really that bothered either way but were asked to vote, so voted. On here we're political obsessives with strong opinions on Brexit. Most of the country was never really that bothered.
A fair chunk of that 'not really bothered' group might prefer to have the winning outcome implemented (whichever outcome had won) but they'll not be picking up pitchforks.
I'm not opining on the rights and wrongs, just that neither revoke nor no deal would lead to immediate mass outrage. The longer term effects of no deal might do so, but the response would be most likely just be to give the (ir)responsible government a good kicking at the next election.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
How d
You mean the 1979 Scottish Devolution referendum where Yes won 52-48 doesn't count as cancelled?
Btw just in case you decide on a future Scotch reincarnation, in Scots naw = no, no = not.
Typo. I meant to write nae. I believe that is correct...
I'm right about Scotland in my mindgame, aren't I? If you'd voted YES and an incoming party tried to cancel it, there would be blood.
But of course it wouldn't happen, because no Scottish party would be mad enough to take on Scots voters in that way. The YES vote would be honoured, even if - as is likely - it plunged the nation into paupery.
All this silliness tells us one thing. Remainers STILL don't understand the Leave vote. They don't comprehend that it was, and is, visceral, cultural and emotional, not transactional.
The incoming Tory government in 1979 did cancel it. There was no bloodshed.
Mr. Meeks, entirely understandable they don't want to give any ground given the division in UK politics.
However, the EU's refusal to countenance changes when May's deal was annihilated in the first Commons vote was less reasonable. Indeed, treating the Commons vote as an unjust impediment and that it was solely a British problem was foolish.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
lol. Me?
Crazed Lib Dems like you need to reflect on the fact that even Caroline Lucas - yes, Caroline Lucas - thinks the Revoke policy is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous"
I would accept a coalition of parties implementing a policy of Revoke after between them securing a majority in a general election after standing on manifestos that committed them to that policy, on one condition. Namely that the result of the previous exercise in democracy had already been implemented and the UK had left.
In the case of the Liberals, their policy is inexcusable. At every stage they have sought to frustrate the vote of 2016. Their MPs weren't even able to bring themselves to vote for the very first step of triggering Article 50 back in 2017, even after repeatedly standing on and being elected on manifestos which promised a referendum on EU membership.
It is not incumbent on the opposition to secure a majority for the government. I'd like to know why Mrs May was able to spend so much public money buying off the DUP and then not being able to secure a majority?
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
How do you know, Bev? No one in Britain has ever just cancelled a referendum before, probably because it's insane, but hey, what do I know ... [snip!]
I am counting on human nature combined with the British psyche. Most people are lazy and will offer opinions, solutions, etc by the thousand, but ask them to do something that requires getting off their backside and all of a sudden nobody has the time to get involved. The country is full of armchair experts, but pitifully short on doers.
TBF, the key things in most peoples' lives are jobs, family and the weekend so we will protest the usual British way with grumbling and contempt for politics.
Mr. Meeks, entirely understandable they don't want to give any ground given the division in UK politics.
However, the EU's refusal to countenance changes when May's deal was annihilated in the first Commons vote was less reasonable. Indeed, treating the Commons vote as an unjust impediment and that it was solely a British problem was foolish.
Doesn’t this misrepresent the EU’s position: that the withdrawal agreement was the only thing that they could come up with that respected the U.K. red lines, and that the political declaration was still up for discussion? Not only that but the political declaration was drafted so vaguely that loads of options were then possible.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
And a fair chunk of that third weren't really that bothered either way but were asked to vote, so voted. On here we're political obsessives with strong opinions on Brexit. Most of the country was never really that bothered.
A fair chunk of that 'not really bothered' group might prefer to have the winning outcome implemented (whichever outcome had won) but they'll not be picking up pitchforks.
I'm not opining on the rights and wrongs, just that neither revoke nor no deal would lead to immediate mass outrage. The longer term effects of no deal might do so, but the response would be most likely just be to give the (ir)responsible government a good kicking at the next election.
I voted Leave but it was a close run thing. I would like a Europe with the freedoms but without the regulations and the spending. That sort of Brexit was probably never likely to happen. I also questioned whether the government would f*** it up, scepticism that as it has turned out, was justified. So paradoxically I would now prefer to Remain, as anything like May's deal isn't worth paying for.
(If Remain had told me how many big trade deals the EU had in the pipeline I might have voted to stay in. But Remain told itself we are all racists and xenopgobes, so didn't bother)
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
And a fair chunk of that third weren't really that bothered either way but were asked to vote, so voted. On here we're political obsessives with strong opinions on Brexit. Most of the country was never really that bothered.
A fair chunk of that 'not really bothered' group might prefer to have the winning outcome implemented (whichever outcome had won) but they'll not be picking up pitchforks.
I'm not opining on the rights and wrongs, just that neither revoke nor no deal would lead to immediate mass outrage. The longer term effects of no deal might do so, but the response would be most likely just be to give the (ir)responsible government a good kicking at the next election.
I voted Leave but it was a close run thing. I would like a Europe with the freedoms but without the regulations and the spending. That sort of Brexit was probably never likely to happen. I also questioned whether the government would f*** it up, scepticism that as it has turned out, was justified. So paradoxically I would now prefer to Remain, as anything like May's deal isn't worth paying for.
(If Remain had told me how many big trade deals the EU had in the pipeline I might have voted to stay in. But Remain told itself we are all racists and xenopgobes, so didn't bother)
Wouldn't made a difference to me but it would have helped killed off some of the trading argument some were making for leaving the EU. Trump, Brexit and other destabilising factors might have helped these deals along though so maybe these things weren't quite ready yet?
I'm outraged that the Sentinel have interviewed him but not given me a call yet. Clearly I need to stop stuffing my leaflets through letterboxes and stuff them somewhere else instead.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
How do you know, Bev? No one in Britain has ever just cancelled a referendum before, probably because it's insane, but hey, what do I know ... [snip!]
I am counting on human nature combined with the British psyche. Most people are lazy and will offer opinions, solutions, etc by the thousand, but ask them to do something that requires getting off their backside and all of a sudden nobody has the time to get involved. The country is full of armchair experts, but pitifully short on doers.
TBF, the key things in most peoples' lives are jobs, family and the weekend so we will protest the usual British way with grumbling and contempt for politics.
Quite. I have lost count of the number of people who have told me they have given up following the news because its all about Brexit and its incredibly tedious. These people do not much care about the outcome, they just want it to go away. I doubt they would do more than raise an eyebrow if we revoked or left with no deal unless there was a direct effect on them. Which would only be the case if we left with no deal.
l Typo. I meant to write nae. I believe that is correct...
I'm right about Scotland in my mindgame, aren't I? If you'd voted YES and an incoming party tried to cancel it, there would be blood.
But of course it wouldn't happen, because no Scottish party would be mad enough to take on Scots voters in that way. The YES vote would be honoured, even if - as is likely - it plunged the nation into paupery.
All this silliness tells us one thing. Remainers STILL don't understand the Leave vote. They don't comprehend that it was, and is, visceral, cultural and emotional, not transactional.
Most "Remainers" don't support Revoke. I don't. I would like to see us negotiate a Brexit deal that honours the referendum while minimising economic harm and maintaining some of the rights that we previously enjoyed as EU citizens. I would then put the deal to a public vote, as many would feel that a concrete deal might not bear much resemblance to the Unicorn-style offering of 2016. Why the government is whipping up hatred and discord rather than pursuing this kind of compromise is beyond me, although like most people I have my theories as to what they are up to.
And fantastic news for the Liberal Democrats in Scotland: the latest ComRes split shows Jo Swinson’s team more than doubling their support, to 16%. This ought to be enough for them to re-take NE Fife and comfortably hold their 4 current seats.
SNP will be pleased too. And SLab relieved to be back in 2nd spot. albeit a very distant 2nd.
However, the party formerly known as “Ruth Davidson’s Candidates” appear to be in freefall: 5th place, on just 10% of the vote. No wonder Ruth did not want her reputation tarnished by The Clown.
HYUFD was bigging up YouGov yesterday, which had the SCon’s still above 20%, just. But none of the other pollsters are remotely as comforting for spluttering British nationalists. We await the first full-sample Scottish VI poll since Ruth’s resignation, but all indications are that it will be very grim indeed for Tories.
The grim news is for the SNP on just 35% and 40% with Yougov and Comres ie below or barely above 2017 despite Brexit and Boris
Yes HY, 40% is much worse than 10%. Much, much worse.
You are a psephological genius and I worship the ground you walk on. Less is more, and crap is great, and leaderless in the wilderness is better than having an FM and a functioning government with the confidence of Her Majesty and parliament.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
How d
You mean the 1979 Scottish Devolution referendum where Yes won 52-48 doesn't count as cancelled?
Btw just in case you decide on a future Scotch reincarnation, in Scots naw = no, no = not.
Typo. I meant to write nae. I believe that is correct...
Depends on the context and area (eg Glaswegian is different from the Doric). Generally in Glasgow 'what you are doing is not good' = 'whit yer daein' isnae good', while 'will you not do that' = 'will ye no do that'.
The classic Glasgow terraces quote about an aging Italian defender who played for Celtic when things weren't going well for them in a match is:
Last time we had a bet I lost plus I would like to see the framing of such a bet. But no, I am enough invested in the outcome of events as it is.
I’d say it’s a bet on
“The difference between the LibDem and Lab vote vs the difference between the Con and BXP vote at the next GE”
I’ll take Evens Con and BXP is bigger. Doesn’t have to be a big bet, just for fun.
OK so you think the Lab/LD votes will be closer than the Con/BXP votes. I will let you know if I take that bet on November 1st.
Ok, the odds might not be the same though
Huh? You said at the next GE and that your opinion was that that was what was going to happen. Why would that change over time before the GE (which we know can't be before Oct 31st)?
Unless.
The opinion was not fully formed so as to be worthless.
Yes that’s my opinion today and I’m willing to bet on it today at those odds. If the LDs decide on Oct 31 to only run one candidate at the next GE, I’m not going to offer you evens on the bet on Nov 1st. Funny that.
You seem in an argumentative mood, but don’t be silly, or provocative... it’s you who’s not putting up, not me.
Point is, to take that bet you need to have a view on whether Boris no deals. For there to be a bigger discrepancy CONS/BXP there would I believe have to be no deal. So the bet is for there to be no deal. On bf the odds for no deal are 5.2.
Well I just offered you EVS the other side and you said no!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
1m of them are dead for a start.
Remainers never die either, now! They truly are ze master race
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
1m of them are dead for a start.
Remainers never die either, now! They truly are ze master race
They certainly don't die at the same rate due to the actuarial reality of age and a lifestyle not based on turkey twizzlers and Asda own brand cider.
I'm outraged that the Sentinel have interviewed him but not given me a call yet. Clearly I need to stop stuffing my leaflets through letterboxes and stuff them somewhere else instead.
There are some important legal questions raised by the case. What powers do store security guards have? What happens if you don't have a receipt (now that shops don't automatically issue them)?
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
1m of them are dead for a start.
Remainers never die either, now! They truly are ze master race
They certainly don't die at the same rate due to the actuarial reality of age and a lifestyle not based on turkey twizzlers and Asda own brand cider.
How many Remainers have died as those 1m Leavers have do you reckon?
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
1m of them are dead for a start.
Remainers never die either, now! They truly are ze master race
I thought we were told that everyone alive during WW2 voted remain. Wouldn't they be the oldest people?
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
1m of them are dead for a start.
Remainers never die either, now! They truly are ze master race
Statistically so.
ABC1, more educated, less obese, less likely to smoke, even change their underwear more often*.
Even at the same age, life expectancy for Remainers is likely to be longer than Leavers.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
1m of them are dead for a start.
Remainers never die either, now! They truly are ze master race
Statistically so.
ABC1, more educated, less obese, less likely to smoke, even change their underwear more often*.
Even at the same age, life expectancy for Remainers is likely to be longer than Leavers.
And fantastic news for the Liberal Democrats in Scotland: the latest ComRes split shows Jo Swinson’s team more than doubling their support, to 16%. This ought to be enough for them to re-take NE Fife and comfortably hold their 4 current seats.
SNP will be pleased too. And SLab relieved to be back in 2nd spot. albeit a very distant 2nd.
However, the party formerly known as “Ruth Davidson’s Candidates” appear to be in freefall: 5th place, on just 10% of the vote. No wonder Ruth did not want her reputation tarnished by The Clown.
HYUFD was bigging up YouGov yesterday, which had the SCon’s still above 20%, just. But none of the other pollsters are remotely as comforting for spluttering British nationalists. We await the first full-sample Scottish VI poll since Ruth’s resignation, but all indications are that it will be very grim indeed for Tories.
The grim news is for the SNP on just 35% and 40% with Yougov and Comres ie below or barely above 2017 despite Brexit and Boris
LOL, they will be heartbroken on about 50 seats while Tories have 1 or 2
I think you will see a major difference on how tories vote for Westminster and Edinburgh. Ruth Davidson can retain a strong group of MSPs but the Tory MPs are gone.
Thanks. As a sensible SCon voter I’m always alert to your take.
I’m a bit perplexed by “Ruth Davidson can retain”: is she planning (or allowed) to continue as Group Leader for Tory MSPs? If she is not, I find it hard to understand how they can retain support at the next Scottish parliamentary GE.
Regarding Westminster, where do you see SCon voters drifting off to. Mainly SLD, Bxp and SNP, in that order, I assume?
Last time we had a bet I lost plus I would like to see the framing of such a bet. But no, I am enough invested in the outcome of events as it is.
I’d say it’s a bet on
“The difference between the LibDem and Lab vote vs the difference between the Con and BXP vote at the next GE”
I’ll take Evens Con and BXP is bigger. Doesn’t have to be a big bet, just for fun.
OK so you think the Lab/LD votes will be closer than the Con/BXP votes. I will let you know if I take that bet on November 1st.
Ok, the odds might not be the same though
Huh? You said at the next GE and that your opinion was that that was what was going to happen. Why would that change over time before the GE (which we know can't be before Oct 31st)?
Unless.
The opinion was not fully formed so as to be worthless.
Yes that’s my opinion today and I’m willing to bet on it today at those odds. If the LDs decide on Oct 31 to only run one candidate at the next GE, I’m not going to offer you evens on the bet on Nov 1st. Funny that.
You seem in an argumentative mood, but don’t be silly, or provocative... it’s you who’s not putting up, not me.
Point is, to take that bet you need to have a view on whether Boris no deals. For there to be a bigger discrepancy CONS/BXP there would I believe have to be no deal. So the bet is for there to be no deal. On bf the odds for no deal are 5.2.
Well I just offered you EVS the other side and you said no!
Comments
The Tories are threatening to go No Deal having been elected under the *current* manifesto, which promised a deal.
And if PM Swinson proposed a referendum between Remain and a deal negotiated by PM Swinson, and the Tories thought it was electorally advantageous to keep pushing Brexit, do you really think they'd propose a *third* referendum? Wouldn't they just boycott the second one and promise to implement the first?
Other than that, good post.
I didn't hear a peep when the shoe was on the other foot.
This is because around 2014 Farage very consciously and carefully weaponised the issue of immigration to raise Europe up the list of concerns, as he himself as he has said. What he did was very successfully leverage a large latent vote against multi-racialism and multi-culturalism to raise what had been a second-order issue.
Imagine that the indy vote in Scotland went narrowly YES. Now, imagine that 3 years later the Scots parliament at Holyrood was refusing to enact that YES vote, and now imagine that it was proposed to simply revoke the YES vote, and carry on, as before, with Scotland firmly and forever in the UK.
What do you think would happen in Scotland, in that situation? Do you think all the passionate indy voters, having heroically won their referendum, would then say, Ah well, look. that wee Jo Swinson is going tae cancel oor vote! Mustn't grumble. These things happen! Let's naw complain.
Because that is what you are predicting for Britain after Revoke.
“The difference between the LibDem and Lab vote vs the difference between the Con and BXP vote at the next GE”
I’ll take Evens Con and BXP is bigger. Doesn’t have to be a big bet, just for fun.
You're defending Revoke downthread, now you say you don't advocate it.
I'm happy to take your name off the official list of PB Revoker Fascists if you explain where you stand.
You don't advocate Revoke. Why? Do you think it's mad, or just bad electoral politics?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/09/26/like-watergate-cancer-presidency-looks-terminal-trump/
In the case of the Liberals, their policy is inexcusable. At every stage they have sought to frustrate the vote of 2016. Their MPs weren't even able to bring themselves to vote for the very first step of triggering Article 50 back in 2017, even after repeatedly standing on and being elected on manifestos which promised a referendum on EU membership.
If the Lib Dems have won the election, its a material change of circumstances, and the more bile you pour, they more likely it is that the whole country recognizes that Brexit is a catastrophe that has been orchestrated by some very sinister bodies and which now needs to be stopped.
The Tories are very motivated too at the moment - but the Brexit party, well how many people do they have willing to deliver and knock ?! They'll probably end up paying for delivery of leaflets and that will eat heftily into the budgets everyone needs to adheer to.
I happen to disagree with revoke because I think the referendum should be honoured. Until I actually read the respective manifestos, I also believed that no deal was a legitimate outcome as it honoured the vote in 2016 where no specific flavour of leave was mentioned on the ballot paper. However that has been affected by the Conservatives' 2017 GE manifesto commitment to leave in an orderly manner, which imo can be read to rule out no deal.
I would try to draw this for you in crayons but sadly the limitations of PB mean I have to type it and as you are evidently no wordsmith I appreciate that you will struggle with this.
But in those days we had sensible majority margins.
May the Lord preserve us from Revoke.
Btw just in case you decide on a future Scotch reincarnation, in Scots naw = no, no = not.
Unless.
The opinion was not fully formed so as to be worthless.
This is the crucial difference with the Brexit referendum. We should never have held a referendum proposing a change that there was not a majority to implement. It meant there was no plan as to how to do so. It was a fake referendum.
This makes it entirely legitimate to correct this original mistake by revoking Article 50. Leavers can then work to gain a Parliamentary majority for Leave, and it will be up to them if they think it will be politically better for them to have another referendum to confirm the decision.
Who knows, one of these centuries we might get a written constitution.
Ironically, if we had PR then we probably would've had a Con-UKIP government fairly recently.
[As an aside, PR remains the work of Satan].
I'm right about Scotland in my mindgame, aren't I? If you'd voted YES and an incoming party tried to cancel it, there would be blood.
But of course it wouldn't happen, because no Scottish party would be mad enough to take on Scots voters in that way. The YES vote would be honoured, even if - as is likely - it plunged the nation into paupery.
All this silliness tells us one thing. Remainers STILL don't understand the Leave vote. They don't comprehend that it was, and is, visceral, cultural and emotional, not transactional.
And now I weary of this. Once again. To work, to work. To dream, perchance to earn.
You seem in an argumentative mood, but don’t be silly, or provocative... it’s you who’s not putting up, not me.
Point is, to take that bet you need to have a view on whether Boris no deals. For there to be a bigger discrepancy CONS/BXP there would I believe have to be no deal. So the bet is for there to be no deal. On bf the odds for no deal are 5.2.
https://twitter.com/COdendahl/status/1177495526423420928
A fair chunk of that 'not really bothered' group might prefer to have the winning outcome implemented (whichever outcome had won) but they'll not be picking up pitchforks.
I'm not opining on the rights and wrongs, just that neither revoke nor no deal would lead to immediate mass outrage. The longer term effects of no deal might do so, but the response would be most likely just be to give the (ir)responsible government a good kicking at the next election.
Mr. Meeks, entirely understandable they don't want to give any ground given the division in UK politics.
However, the EU's refusal to countenance changes when May's deal was annihilated in the first Commons vote was less reasonable. Indeed, treating the Commons vote as an unjust impediment and that it was solely a British problem was foolish.
TBF, the key things in most peoples' lives are jobs, family and the weekend so we will protest the usual British way with grumbling and contempt for politics.
(If Remain had told me how many big trade deals the EU had in the pipeline I might have voted to stay in. But Remain told itself we are all racists and xenopgobes, so didn't bother)
Tilgate (Crawley) result:
CON: 57.0% (+10.0)
LAB: 30.5% (-7.3)
LDEM: 6.3% (+6.3)
GRN: 5.8% (-9.4)
JUST: 0.4% (+0.4)
Conservative HOLD.
Conservative HOLD
Three Bridges (West Sussex) with
Conservatives 52% (+7%)
LAB 29% (-10%)
LD 12% (+6%),
GRN 6% (+2%)
Justice 0.4% (+0.4%).
You are a psephological genius and I worship the ground you walk on. Less is more, and crap is great, and leaderless in the wilderness is better than having an FM and a functioning government with the confidence of Her Majesty and parliament.
The classic Glasgow terraces quote about an aging Italian defender who played for Celtic when things weren't going well for them in a match is:
'Aw naw, no Annoni on an aw noo'.
Tr: Oh no, not Annoni on as well now.
Gonnae no dae that
And he felt good about it!
I knew that he would
Where did I put that 350 million a week?
ABC1, more educated, less obese, less likely to smoke, even change their underwear more often*.
Even at the same age, life expectancy for Remainers is likely to be longer than Leavers.
*https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-voters-less-likely-to-change-their-underpants-every-day/
But Remainers die too... the "1m (Leavers) are dead" line is gross in more ways than one
I’m a bit perplexed by “Ruth Davidson can retain”: is she planning (or allowed) to continue as Group Leader for Tory MSPs? If she is not, I find it hard to understand how they can retain support at the next Scottish parliamentary GE.
Regarding Westminster, where do you see SCon voters drifting off to. Mainly SLD, Bxp and SNP, in that order, I assume?