I believe the Tories will remain the main right of centre party no matter what happens with No Deal with a good chance of a majority, if the Tories extend again the Tories have zero chance of a majority and I believe the Tories may well go extinct with the Brexit Party overtaking them as the main party of the right.
Those are the stakes and why fanatical diehard Remainers like Foxy must be ignored as they do not understand the fury of Leavers at all
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that when it comes to fanaticism, you lead the way. The ghastly contortions you perform to defend your party when they've made obvious mistakes are fascinating.
As the European Parliament elections (in which I still voted Tory) showed if the Tories extend again Tory and Leave voters will defect an masse to the Brexit Party which will then overtake the Tories.
Sooner or later if Brexit is then cancelled by diehard Remainers we will get a populist right even a far right Government within the next decade, a nasty, nasty Government from the perspective of left liberal die hard Remainers even more so than the so called 'evil Tories.'
And diehard Remainers will have nobody to blame but themselves
(IF)^2=CRAP
32% of voters voted Brexit Party in the European Parliament elections, how many PBers?
5.2m people is only about 12% of voters.
The Brexit Party were also polling 20 to 25% at the time
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
Sadly it’s pretty clear this is no longer a decent country.
Give me strength.
if Tim Farron wants to live in a "decent society", maybe he should persuade his party to drop their policy of simply cancelling the largest single vote in British history, and telling 17 million Britons their vote means nothing, because we are no longer a democracy.
That is the most indecent policy ever proposed by a major British party. If the Lib Dems ever carried it out it would truly envenom our nation, for a generation.
You keep posting this nonsense but it doesn’t make it true.
You can't implement a manifesto policy after a general election victory, that's undemocratic! You can't have a referendum, that's undemocratic! You aren't allowed to express opinions that go against the Little Book of Approved Ideas, that's undemocratic! Democracy is forever enshrined in a single number, and that number is 17.4 million. Anything you want -- anything at all -- has to equal 17.4 million or it is undemocratic.
Revoke is as dangerous and extreme as the most egregious No Deal fantasies of the frothiest Brexiteer. Deep down, you know this, so I don't know why you bother denying it.
Deep down, I know that Revoke is what I want, it's the most important policy in my wishlist, and there is a party offering it. If someone wants to threaten me for having a political opinion, the police will deal with them. I haven't converted to Islam because of islamists, I haven't changed my opinion on Northern Ireland because of republican and unionist terror, and I don't change my opinion on the EU because a few headcases smash some MPs' windows.
I suspect this is where it will end up . If the Lib Dems , PC and independents who are anti no deal really want to stop it they’re going to have to put up with Corbyn.
If they refuse to do that then they can explain to their voters why they allowed the UK to crash out when they could have stopped that .
And let’s be blunt given the cesspit that now passes as no 10 . Compared to Bozo at least Corbyn wouldn’t try and break the law . The more unhinged Bozo gets the better Corbyn looks.
Actually, I am going to do a bit of Godwin's Law but apply it to Corbyn. If that does happen (and I don't think the LDs will do as it will destroy their chances of winning wealthy Tory seats in the SOuth), then it will resemble what happened in 1933 when Hitler became Chancellor. Corbyn being put in power on the back of other parties who believe that they can control and restrain him and rein in his excesses. I suspect, like Hitler, Corbyn would prove them wrong.
PM Corbyn would then likely lead to PM Farage the election after
OT anecdote: I was speaking to some American colleagues yesterday who blamed Biden as much as Trump for Ukrainegate. If this is a widespread view then it might be another reason Warren is clear for the Democrat nomination.
I wonder if any Resident’s Associations might be tempted to put up candidates at a General Election?
My mother has been a member of the Tory party for at least 4 decades. She voted for Johnson in the leadership, but is appalled at him deliberately misleading the Queen and suspending parliament.
The switch of Tory polling support to C2DE is going to be a tough one to sustain. The only post Brexit way to keep them on board is continued angry culture war stuff. That is why Brexit does not restore sanity to the country.
Yes, in some ways the shift in England over the last few years echoes the shift that happened (in microcosm) what happened in Northern Ireland when the DUP usurped the UUP as the main political voice of loyalists/the right. The difference is that it was a switch of parties and DUP politicians generally reflected the voters that switched to them.
The characteristics of Conservative Party support is changing, but this is not (currently anyway) reflected in the backgrounds of Tory MPs and leadership. The latter are using the former (or dependent on the former, depending on your viewpoint) to get what they want, but post Brexit they will quite likely struggle to maintain support whilst the disconnect in background and understanding persists.
Whenever you here a Southern Tory going on about the voters of the Midlands/north feeling betrayed/let down, how many of them do you think have really taken the time to delve deeply into the underlying problems? It’s mostly just cliches.
For once, Mr Meeks is right. He's always been a fanatical Remainer but he did accept the decision of the electorate. However as the delaying tactics of the Remainer majority MPs have begun to work, he's seen a chink of light. Unfortunately, so has the EU so the chances of any meaningful renegotiation have disappeared.
They scent the smell of victory in their nostrils.
But it's at the expense of a united country. No more glad confident morning. Back into the wildwoods for the weasels and stoats.
"This leads to me to [sic] the greatest betrayal and the final straw for many MPs. I have been told and shown evidence by an overwhelming number of unimpeachably neutral Labour remain staff that Corbyn’s office, for which he must take full responsibility, consistently attempted to weaken and sabotage the Labour remain campaign, in contravention of the party’s official position. "
Sadly it’s pretty clear this is no longer a decent country.
Give me strength.
if Tim Farron wants to live in a "decent society", maybe he should persuade his party to drop their policy of simply cancelling the largest single vote in British history, and telling 17 million Britons their vote means nothing, because we are no longer a democracy.
That is the most indecent policy ever proposed by a major British party. If the Lib Dems ever carried it out it would truly envenom our nation, for a generation.
You keep posting this nonsense but it doesn’t make it true.
You can't implement a manifesto policy after a general election victory, that's undemocratic! You can't have a referendum, that's undemocratic! You aren't allowed to express opinions that go against the Little Book of Approved Ideas, that's undemocratic! Democracy is forever enshrined in a single number, and that number is 17.4 million. Anything you want -- anything at all -- has to equal 17.4 million or it is undemocratic.
Revoke is as dangerous and extreme as the most egregious No Deal fantasies of the frothiest Brexiteer. Deep down, you know this, so I don't know why you bother denying it.
Deep down, I know that Revoke is what I want, it's the most important policy in my wishlist, and there is a party offering it. If someone wants to threaten me for having a political opinion, the police will deal with them. I haven't converted to Islam because of islamists, I haven't changed my opinion on Northern Ireland because of republican and unionist terror, and I don't change my opinion on the EU because a few headcases smash some MPs' windows.
You can't threaten me into changing my mind.
You are the definition of stupidly careless. You're like the Mark Francois of Remain.
Sadly it’s pretty clear this is no longer a decent country.
It is a decent country, just we have an absolute **** as PM. It will pass.
but it is about Brexit, it really is, like him or loathe him there are opposition parties desperate to stop Johnson achieving Brexit. those are the facts. Johnson's methods may disgust, but it does not alter the facts as the public see it. hence the abuse.
That is what he wants people to believe.
The number of people or MPs who really want to stop Brexit at all costs is about 1 in 5. Well over 500 MPs have voted for their preferred flavour of Brexit.
Why does a minority government think it has a divine right to determine the flavour of Brexit without any input from the parliamentary majority?
Not to mention then demonising the people whose votes they need to deliver the Brexit (which Boris claims they really want to do) as traitors. What rational person who needs someones vote does that? It is bonkers. It is not just about his method being disgusting, it is both disgusting and cannot achieve what he claims to want.
A PM willing to reach out, negotiate and compromise could achieve Brexit very quickly and maintain the fabric of society.
This.
The referendum originated as a Tory party project, and they have endeavoured throughout to make the manner in which we leave an exclusively Tory project, even when the electorate refused them a Parliamentary majority.
On thread, council by-elections are fine but rarely point to anything.
When the General Election comes, all those who voted Tory in 2015 and/or 2017 will have to decide which matters more to them
Remain in the EU and almost certainly have a Jeremy Corbyn government which will tax them out of being able to pay their mortgages and go on their 3 foreign holidays to other EU countries each year. In addition they will see their pension funds go up in smoke (unless they work in the public sector) as John MacDonnell confiscates the pension fund investments in utility and rail companies in exchange for meaningless, worthless Government bonds as anyone who ever owned "War stocks" knows!
or
Leave the EU by voting Tory and have the inconvenience of having to stand for a wee while at customs when going on their 3 foreign holidays a year plus maybe not getting their favourite fruit out of natural season in the UK for a while.
Vote Tory = get Tory
Vote Labour = get Labour Vote Liberal = get Labour Vote SNP/PC/Brexit/Green = get Labour
But I think atm there will be some who prefer Voting ABC to get a constrained Labour Party. If people see Swinson as a moderating force on Corbyn, they may be more willing to vote for either.
MPs are focussing solely on their own positions at the moment and not caring about the bigger picture, where they might need to sacrifice a bit of what they’d like to have if they had their own way in the national interest of ending this feud.
It’s the tragedy of the Commons.
It seems fashionable to blame MPs on all sides at the moment. But that is falling into the trap of the people vs. Parliament narrative pushed by number 10.
In most dispassionate terms, this cabinet could have had Brexit in March if they had voted for it. They then engaged in a game of Brinkmanship threatening a no deal exit, but didn’t inspire confidence that they wanted a deal. It looked like they actually wanted no deal and were stopped. They tried to bend the law on Parliament and were found to break it. Now they are deepening divisions by doubling down on inflammatory rhetoric. Having once ruled out an election, they no say one is essential, largely because they sacked 20 of their own MPs.
Quite. The problem is the executive not the legislature.
And changing the executive is in the gift of the legislature.
But that is hard to do in a hung parliament, but doubly hard to do when the incumbent intends to use the process of changing administration to sneak through policy for which they have no majority.
The opposition will get there, it it will be close.
There wouldn't be a hung parliament if both main parties hadn't decided to play silly beggars and call the election in 2017.
If politicians had been truthful about their intention to stop Brexit at the 2017 GE, there probably wouldn’t be a hung parliament.
Does anyone believe the notion suggested by Major of the Privy Council suspending the Benn Act until after 31st October has any legs?
I suspect Major outed it in order to head it off at the pass. The courts would presumably kill it off pretty quickly, but it might help with the government's populist narrative.
I was at the event where Major spoke last night. His cold fury at what Johnson is doing to his party was palpable. Quite remarkable to hear that kind of language about the current PM from a former PM in his own party.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
I believe the Tories will remain the main right of centre party no matter what happens with No Deal with a good chance of a majority, if the Tories extend again the Tories have zero chance of a majority and I believe the Tories may well go extinct with the Brexit Party overtaking them as the main party of the right.
Those are the stakes and why fanatical diehard Remainers like Foxy must be ignored as they do not understand the fury of Leavers at all
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that when it comes to fanaticism, you lead the way. The ghastly contortions you perform to defend your party when they've made obvious mistakes are fascinating.
As the European Parliament elections (in which I still voted Tory) showed if the Tories extend again Tory and Leave voters will defect an masse to the Brexit Party which will then overtake the Tories.
Sooner or later if Brexit is then cancelled by diehard Remainers we will get a populist right even a far right Government within the next decade, a nasty, nasty Government from the perspective of left liberal die hard Remainers even more so than the so called 'evil Tories.'
And diehard Remainers will have nobody to blame but themselves
You don't fend off the far right by giving them what they want. That's what Cameron did, that's what May did, and that's what Boris is. If I wanted advice on how to prevent the far right from taking root the very last person I would ask is a Tory.
Gods, I'm actually amazed you can't see this! You think after nine years of Tory government and 9 years of rising far-right sentiment, the Tories and Tory policies are the solution? You really don't see it yet? You did this. You.
I suspect this is where it will end up . If the Lib Dems , PC and independents who are anti no deal really want to stop it they’re going to have to put up with Corbyn.
If they refuse to do that then they can explain to their voters why they allowed the UK to crash out when they could have stopped that .
And let’s be blunt given the cesspit that now passes as no 10 . Compared to Bozo at least Corbyn wouldn’t try and break the law . The more unhinged Bozo gets the better Corbyn looks.
Actually, I am going to do a bit of Godwin's Law but apply it to Corbyn. If that does happen (and I don't think the LDs will do as it will destroy their chances of winning wealthy Tory seats in the SOuth), then it will resemble what happened in 1933 when Hitler became Chancellor. Corbyn being put in power on the back of other parties who believe that they can control and restrain him and rein in his excesses. I suspect, like Hitler, Corbyn would prove them wrong.
PM Corbyn would then likely lead to PM Farage the election after
I would prefer PM Farage to PM Johnson. At least he would have had to earn his votes through argument rather than hijacking and radicalising a once proud party with lies.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
One could equally ask a similar set of fatuous questions about why Leavers think that Remain voters will passively accept a no-deal Brexit.
It's time for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. It was launched on a false prospectus, as is now apparent. The remedy is not to pretend that the lies in the prospectus were true but to identify what would have been done if the prospectus had been truthful in the first place.
Oh, and to clap in irons those who put that prospectus together for the damage that they have caused.
The period since the Scottish referendum in 2014 has been probably the most confused and confusing in British political history. We've seen:
- the eclipse of Scottish Labour = the ascendary of Scottish Nationalists - the collapse of the Liberal Democrats - an avowed Marxist taking over Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition - two indecisive general elections including a partial Conservative revival in Scotland - a new party (Change UK/TIG - remember them) being set up and basically falling apart - a Government depriving itself of a majority - maybe the rebirth of the Liberal Democrats - the discreditation of the Speaker in the eyes of many MPs
I'm trying to think of a stranger period in our history and I can only think of: - the years of crisis between the loss of the American War of Independence and the establishment of the Pitt the Younger ministry - the 1840s and the party convulsions following the repeal of the Corn Laws - the Conservatives' self-destruction then partial revival before the First World War - the Liberals' annihilation between the Wars
but nothing really comes close. Going further back, there was a very strange political period between the Nine Years' War and the War of Spanish Succession, but we do not have the data to know what went on then.
It's mostly traceable to the fact that our majoritarian system doesn't really work if one Party doesn't have a clear majority in Parliament. It is arguable that giving the winning party a bonus of 100 party list MPs to get it there could give us the functioning government we used to have. And/or repealing the FTPA, which requires governments to limp on without the confidence of Parliament. But without that, we'll just have to get used to living with Governments in office but not in power.
I think you need to look up the meaning of 'avowed'. Jezza may or may not be a Marxist but avowing that he's one is something that he's very much avoided doing (handy hint, the Conservative party and Mail saying something does not make it so).
That's right - he's said he sees interesting points in a range of writers including Marx and Adam Smith! McDonnell is a Marxist, Corbyn is something different which overlaps with many Marxists, an anti-imperialist. I don't think in truth that he's all that interested in economic theory. But he's a knee-jerk opponent of US domination of Third World countries. At times that's made him seem very much out of step with mainstream opinion, but in these days of Trump it offers security against getting into a US war with Iran or whoever else Donald takes a dislike to.
Sadly it’s pretty clear this is no longer a decent country.
It is a decent country, just we have an absolute **** as PM. It will pass.
but it is about Brexit, it really is, like him or loathe him there are opposition parties desperate to stop Johnson achieving Brexit. those are the facts. Johnson's methods may disgust, but it does not alter the facts as the public see it. hence the abuse.
That is what he wants people to believe.
The number of people or MPs who really want to stop Brexit at all costs is about 1 in 5. Well over 500 MPs have voted for their preferred flavour of Brexit.
Why does a minority government think it has a divine right to determine the flavour of Brexit without any input from the parliamentary majority?
Not to mention then demonising the people whose votes they need to deliver the Brexit (which Boris claims they really want to do) as traitors. What rational person who needs someones vote does that? It is bonkers. It is not just about his method being disgusting, it is both disgusting and cannot achieve what he claims to want.
A PM willing to reach out, negotiate and compromise could achieve Brexit very quickly and maintain the fabric of society.
This.
The referendum originated as a Tory party project, and they have endeavoured throughout to make the manner in which we leave an exclusively Tory project, even when the electorate refused them a Parliamentary majority.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
It's pretty straightforward in my mind.
Lib Dem policy is to revoke if they get a parliamentary majority.
There is no realistic scenario under which the Lib Dems get a parliamentary majority without the country having shifted decidedly to Remain. None. Right now the Lib Dems are polling 20%ish and the polls are showing around 53/47 Remain/Leave. To get a majority, the Lib Dems need to be polling 35%, and that won't happen until the Remain/Leave balance has shifted towards 60/40.
Sure, you can construct theoretical scenarios in which every single Labour Remain voter goes to the Lib Dems overnight and thereby the Lib Dems get a majority in a 53/47 scenario. But they're bullshit. They're not going to happen.
So, you ask "do you really think that you can just annul the referendum vote"? Yes. Because the only way it could happen is if the country had already shifted decisively to Remain.
I suspect this is where it will end up . If the Lib Dems , PC and independents who are anti no deal really want to stop it they’re going to have to put up with Corbyn.
If they refuse to do that then they can explain to their voters why they allowed the UK to crash out when they could have stopped that .
And let’s be blunt given the cesspit that now passes as no 10 . Compared to Bozo at least Corbyn wouldn’t try and break the law . The more unhinged Bozo gets the better Corbyn looks.
Actually, I am going to do a bit of Godwin's Law but apply it to Corbyn. If that does happen (and I don't think the LDs will do as it will destroy their chances of winning wealthy Tory seats in the SOuth), then it will resemble what happened in 1933 when Hitler became Chancellor. Corbyn being put in power on the back of other parties who believe that they can control and restrain him and rein in his excesses. I suspect, like Hitler, Corbyn would prove them wrong.
PM Corbyn would then likely lead to PM Farage the election after
I would prefer PM Farage to PM Johnson. At least he would have had to earn his votes through argument rather than hijacking and radicalising a once proud party with lies.
Speaking as a Diehard Remainer I find Farage a far more attractive figure than Johnson. I find Farage's opinions repulsive but at least I know they are honestly held.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
A question about the working of FTPA. Corbyn calls a VONC and wins. Johnson heads up to Balmoral to resign and suggests HM send for Corbyn. Corbyn assembles a rainbow coalition which loses the confirmatory VOC. Who then further advises HM about another possible successor or date of general election? Is it Corbyn or Johnson? The Act doesn't seem very clear about this.
If the queen has appointed Corbyn, it's Corbyn. He remains PM until a new candidate is found or until a general election confirms or removes him.
So there is no reason for a VONC not to be called. If Corbyn wind it will be him deciding on the date of the forthcoming election and not Johnson. I have seen it did that Johnson could just sit out the 14 days, and I know Johnson doesn't much care for our constitutional conventions, but it's surely not credible for him to remain PM after losing VONC is it?
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
Won't happen because at 45% of the country there would be a landslide Cons victory who would force through whatever damn flavour of Leave they wanted. If only, say, 30% of the country voted Cons and the LDs won an overall majority on 38% then they would have every democratic right to do whatever the hell they wanted, subject to law.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
One could equally ask a similar set of fatuous questions about why Leavers think that Remain voters will passively accept a no-deal Brexit.
It's time for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. It was launched on a false prospectus, as is now apparent. The remedy is not to pretend that the lies in the prospectus were true but to identify what would have been done if the prospectus had been truthful in the first place.
Oh, and to clap in irons those who put that prospectus together for the damage that they have caused.
Total failure to answer the questions. But of course.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
Get out of London and speak to voters. You haven’t got a clue.
Sadly it’s pretty clear this is no longer a decent country.
Give me strength.
if Tim Farron wants to live in a "decent society", maybe he should persuade his party to drop their policy of simply cancelling the largest single vote in British history, and telling 17 million Britons their vote means nothing, because we are no longer a democracy.
That is the most indecent policy ever proposed by a major British party. If the Lib Dems ever carried it out it would truly envenom our nation, for a generation.
You keep posting this nonsense but it doesn’t make it true.
You can't implement a manifesto policy after a general election victory, that's undemocratic! You can't have a referendum, that's undemocratic! You aren't allowed to express opinions that go against the Little Book of Approved Ideas, that's undemocratic! Democracy is forever enshrined in a single number, and that number is 17.4 million. Anything you want -- anything at all -- has to equal 17.4 million or it is undemocratic.
Revoke is as dangerous and extreme as the most egregious No Deal fantasies of the frothiest Brexiteer. Deep down, you know this, so I don't know why you bother denying it.
Deep down, I know that Revoke is what I want, it's the most important policy in my wishlist, and there is a party offering it. If someone wants to threaten me for having a political opinion, the police will deal with them. I haven't converted to Islam because of islamists, I haven't changed my opinion on Northern Ireland because of republican and unionist terror, and I don't change my opinion on the EU because a few headcases smash some MPs' windows.
You can't threaten me into changing my mind.
You are the definition of stupidly careless. You're like the Mark Francois of Remain.
You need to answer my other questions below.
I don't "need" to do anything you tell me. You personally don't get to talk about threats after you personally threatening me (and others) a few weeks ago. I don't give in to terror, I don't give in to you.
Sadly it’s pretty clear this is no longer a decent country.
Give me strength.
if Tim Farron wants to live in a "decent society", maybe he should persuade his party to drop their policy of simply cancelling the largest single vote in British history, and telling 17 million Britons their vote means nothing, because we are no longer a democracy.
That is the most indecent policy ever proposed by a major British party. If the Lib Dems ever carried it out it would truly envenom our nation, for a generation.
Not "means" but "meant" and 1 million of then are dead.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
One could equally ask a similar set of fatuous questions about why Leavers think that Remain voters will passively accept a no-deal Brexit.
It's time for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. It was launched on a false prospectus, as is now apparent. The remedy is not to pretend that the lies in the prospectus were true but to identify what would have been done if the prospectus had been truthful in the first place.
Oh, and to clap in irons those who put that prospectus together for the damage that they have caused.
Are you interring your political opponents with or without the inconvenience of due process here?
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
Sounds like you're ready for a referendum. Perhaps you should vote Labour?
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
Won't happen because at 45% of the country there would be a landslide Cons victory who would force through whatever damn flavour of Leave they wanted. If only, say, 30% of the country voted Cons and the LDs won an overall majority on 38% then they would have every democratic right to do whatever the hell they wanted, subject to law.
Read my post again. I said IF the 45% Leave vote was quite evenly divided between BXP and CON, which is far from impossible.
The casual nature in which extreme Remainers accept (or ignore) the horrible ramifications of Revocation is one of the most depressing evolutions in the history of Brexit. The grievous damage done to democratic trust doesn't even figure in your calculations.
I believe the Tories will remain the main right of centre party no matter what happens with No Deal with a good chance of a majority, if the Tories extend again the Tories have zero chance of a majority and I believe the Tories may well go extinct with the Brexit Party overtaking them as the main party of the right.
Those are the stakes and why fanatical diehard Remainers like Foxy must be ignored as they do not understand the fury of Leavers at all
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that when it comes to fanaticism, you lead the way. The ghastly contortions you perform to defend your party when they've made obvious mistakes are fascinating.
As the European Parliament elections (in which I still voted Tory) showed if the Tories extend again Tory and Leave voters will defect an masse to the Brexit Party which will then overtake the Tories.
Sooner or later if Brexit is then cancelled by diehard Remainers we will get a populist right even a far right Government within the next decade, a nasty, nasty Government from the perspective of left liberal die hard Remainers even more so than the so called 'evil Tories.'
And diehard Remainers will have nobody to blame but themselves
You don't fend off the far right by giving them what they want. That's what Cameron did, that's what May did, and that's what Boris is. If I wanted advice on how to prevent the far right from taking root the very last person I would ask is a Tory.
Gods, I'm actually amazed you can't see this! You think after nine years of Tory government and 9 years of rising far-right sentiment, the Tories and Tory policies are the solution? You really don't see it yet? You did this. You.
I think the traditional expression is 'Its a view'
You are not of the opinion that if a party were to offer unfettered immigration it would motivate and energise the far right?
The general rule is where you push in one direction there will be a reaction in the opposite direction. This response will in turn will create a more pure (or extreme, take your pick) ripple in the original direction.
Once the pendulum stops swinging wildly it is possible to return to a gentle rhythmic metronomic state of relative stability.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
Lib Dem’s are excited at rivalling Labour for second place but it is actually great news for Brexit. The Lab/Lib split will be far more even than Con/BXP, and the latter are a lot more likely to work together strategically
Read my post again. I said IF the 45% Leave vote was quite evenly divided between BXP and CON, which is far from impossible.
The casual nature in which extreme Remainers accept (or ignore) the horrible ramifications of Revocation is one of the most depressing evolutions in the history of Brexit. The grievous damage done to democratic trust doesn't even figure in your calculations.
You have become a cult, like the No Dealers.
FPTP is the will of the people, they knew what they voted for, if they wanted to avoid it they would have backed AV.
Good morning all. A better result for the Tories in Crawley with a strong increase in vote. Interesting that last nights results have deviated a bit from the trend of the last few weeks, indicating (perhaps) that the plates are starting to shift. Although as ever reading too much into bin collection votes is dangerous. However the 'headline' of last night would be LD gaining solid ground in labour held areas, Tory vote strengthening in 2 southern Tory held areas.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
One could equally ask a similar set of fatuous questions about why Leavers think that Remain voters will passively accept a no-deal Brexit.
It's time for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. It was launched on a false prospectus, as is now apparent. The remedy is not to pretend that the lies in the prospectus were true but to identify what would have been done if the prospectus had been truthful in the first place.
Oh, and to clap in irons those who put that prospectus together for the damage that they have caused.
Total failure to answer the questions. But of course.
The questions are fatuous. They imply there's an outcome where British political life would continue as before June 2016. It won't. The country is on a downward spiral for a long time to come.
The first stage of recovery will be for Remainers to accept that they lost and for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. We're a long way off either of those points yet.
Read my post again. I said IF the 45% Leave vote was quite evenly divided between BXP and CON, which is far from impossible.
The casual nature in which extreme Remainers accept (or ignore) the horrible ramifications of Revocation is one of the most depressing evolutions in the history of Brexit. The grievous damage done to democratic trust doesn't even figure in your calculations.
You have become a cult, like the No Dealers.
So what you are saying is that if 15% of the Leavers vote Cons, 15% vote BXP, 10% don't vote because that will show them, and 5% vote for the bloke at the hustings with the union jack top hat it won't be fair if a party wins with 35% of the vote.
You have simply proved both that you think Leavers are morons (which is fair enough) and that you are also moving into moronicity.
The period since the Scottish referendum in 2014 has been probably the most confused and confusing in British political history. We've seen:
- the eclipse of Scottish Labour = the ascendary of Scottish Nationalists - the collapse of the Liberal Democrats - an avowed Marxist taking over Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition - two indecisive general elections including a partial Conservative revival in Scotland - a new party (Change UK/TIG - remember them) being set up and basically falling apart - a Government depriving itself of a majority - maybe the rebirth of the Liberal Democrats - the discreditation of the Speaker in the eyes of many MPs
I'm trying to think of a stranger period in our history and I can only think of: - the years of crisis between the loss of the American War of Independence and the establishment of the Pitt the Younger ministry - the 1840s and the party convulsions following the repeal of the Corn Laws - the Conservatives' self-destruction then partial revival before the First World War - the Liberals' annihilation between the Wars
but nothing really comes close. Going further back, there was a very strange political period between the Nine Years' War and the War of Spanish Succession, but we do not have the data to know what went on then.
It's mostly traceable to the fact that our majoritarian system doesn't really work if one Party doesn't have a clear majority in Parliament. It is arguable that giving the winning party a bonus of 100 party list MPs to get it there could give us the functioning government we used to have. And/or repealing the FTPA, which requires governments to limp on without the confidence of Parliament. But without that, we'll just have to get used to living with Governments in office but not in power.
I think you need to look up the meaning of 'avowed'. Jezza may or may not be a Marxist but avowing that he's one is something that he's very much avoided doing (handy hint, the Conservative party and Mail saying something does not make it so).
That's right - he's said he sees interesting points in a range of writers including Marx and Adam Smith! McDonnell is a Marxist, Corbyn is something different which overlaps with many Marxists, an anti-imperialist. I don't think in truth that he's all that interested in economic theory. But he's a knee-jerk opponent of US domination of Third World countries. At times that's made him seem very much out of step with mainstream opinion, but in these days of Trump it offers security against getting into a US war with Iran or whoever else Donald takes a dislike to.
US domination of third world countries is nothing like the issue it was. China is now the nation that is expansionist creating dependence in third world countries in many ways.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
lol. Me?
Crazed Lib Dems like you need to reflect on the fact that even Caroline Lucas - yes, Caroline Lucas - thinks the Revoke policy is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous"
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
Lib Dem’s are excited at rivalling Labour for second place but it is actually great news for Brexit. The Lab/Lib split will be far more even than Con/BXP, and the latter are a lot more likely to work together strategically
Sounding a bit HYUFD-ish certain young fellah. I would say it's a brave man who can forecast the way in a four-way split, the cards will land.
For once, Mr Meeks is right. He's always been a fanatical Remainer but he did accept the decision of the electorate. However as the delaying tactics of the Remainer majority MPs have begun to work, he's seen a chink of light. Unfortunately, so has the EU so the chances of any meaningful renegotiation have disappeared.
They scent the smell of victory in their nostrils.
But it's at the expense of a united country. No more glad confident morning. Back into the wildwoods for the weasels and stoats.
I think Mr Meeks is a principled, not fanatical, remainer; just as many leavers are too. Quite a lot of people would prefer competence in government and parliament in preference any any particular outcome. The unavailability of principled competence is now the pressing problem. The fact that millions of people are thinking about the (relatively) unsullied LDs is clear evidence of this. Some leavers even may prefer their clarity to the confused incompetence of the Conservatives which has been unbroken by a glimmer of sense ever since the failure to prepare for the possibility of losing the referendum, and Cameron's resignation.
BTW, no doubt remainers have indulged in delaying tactics, but in the third MV, the majority was 58, and 34 Tories voted against the government. With their support it would have won. When leavers had their chance the fanatics blew it.
Does anyone believe the notion suggested by Major of the Privy Council suspending the Benn Act until after 31st October has any legs?
I suspect Major outed it in order to head it off at the pass. The courts would presumably kill it off pretty quickly, but it might help with the government's populist narrative.
I was at the event where Major spoke last night. His cold fury at what Johnson is doing to his party was palpable. Quite remarkable to hear that kind of language about the current PM from a former PM in his own party.
Indeed being a sore loser is never a pretty sight. Major hasn't gotten over the fact he and his ilk lost the referendum.
Maybe if he'd vetoed Maastricht or put it rather than ultimately our membership to a referendum things could have been different.
Good morning all. A better result for the Tories in Crawley with a strong increase in vote. Interesting that last nights results have deviated a bit from the trend of the last few weeks, indicating (perhaps) that the plates are starting to shift. Although as ever reading too much into bin collection votes is dangerous. However the 'headline' of last night would be LD gaining solid ground in labour held areas, Tory vote strengthening in 2 southern Tory held areas.
It doesn’t show that. The combined Tory vote share in Tilgate in May was the same. It shows no strengthening whatsoever.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
One could equally ask a similar set of fatuous questions about why Leavers think that Remain voters will passively accept a no-deal Brexit.
It's time for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. It was launched on a false prospectus, as is now apparent. The remedy is not to pretend that the lies in the prospectus were true but to identify what would have been done if the prospectus had been truthful in the first place.
Oh, and to clap in irons those who put that prospectus together for the damage that they have caused.
Total failure to answer the questions. But of course.
The questions are fatuous. They imply there's an outcome where British political life would continue as before June 2016. It won't. The country is on a downward spiral for a long time to come.
The first stage of recovery will be for Remainers to accept that they lost and for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. We're a long way off either of those points yet.
British political life was only less turbulent before June 2016 because the views of a large block of the country were totally ignored by parliament. The unhappiness in an unhappy marriage doesn’t start when one of them files for divorce, no matter how ignorant the other was of their partners misery.
Read my post again. I said IF the 45% Leave vote was quite evenly divided between BXP and CON, which is far from impossible.
The casual nature in which extreme Remainers accept (or ignore) the horrible ramifications of Revocation is one of the most depressing evolutions in the history of Brexit. The grievous damage done to democratic trust doesn't even figure in your calculations.
You have become a cult, like the No Dealers.
So what you are saying is that if 15% of the Leavers vote Cons, 15% vote BXP, 10% don't vote because that will show them, and 5% vote for the bloke at the hustings with the union jack top hat it won't be fair if a party wins with 35% of the vote.
You have simply proved both that you think Leavers are morons (which is fair enough) and that you are also moving into moronicity.
That's quite the statement, coming from someone who clearly doesn't understand how percentages work.
Good morning all. A better result for the Tories in Crawley with a strong increase in vote. Interesting that last nights results have deviated a bit from the trend of the last few weeks, indicating (perhaps) that the plates are starting to shift. Although as ever reading too much into bin collection votes is dangerous. However the 'headline' of last night would be LD gaining solid ground in labour held areas, Tory vote strengthening in 2 southern Tory held areas.
It was very interesting that, in the case of both Farage about Johnson resigning and Lucas criticisng Swinson's revoke idea, their respective voters were very critical of what their leader had said on Twitter.
One thing that might be underestimated at the next GE is the ability / willingness of BXP supporters to tactily vote Conservative in the same way that the commentary on PB and elsewhere have said that Remainers will do. I think there is a bit of an underlying assumption on here that Brexiteers are a bit "thick" to do tactical voting, unlike "sophisticated" Remain voters. I suspect that will be wrong and so look out for some very odd results.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
One could equally ask a similar set of fatuous questions about why Leavers think that Remain voters will passively accept a no-deal Brexit.
It's time for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. It was launched on a false prospectus, as is now apparent. The remedy is not to pretend that the lies in the prospectus were true but to identify what would have been done if the prospectus had been truthful in the first place.
Oh, and to clap in irons those who put that prospectus together for the damage that they have caused.
Total failure to answer the questions. But of course.
The questions are fatuous. They imply there's an outcome where British political life would continue as before June 2016. It won't. The country is on a downward spiral for a long time to come.
The first stage of recovery will be for Remainers to accept that they lost and for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. We're a long way off either of those points yet.
British political life was only less turbulent before June 2016 because the views of a large block of the country were totally ignored by parliament. The unhappiness in an unhappy marriage doesn’t start when one of them files for divorce, no matter how ignorant the other was of their partners misery.
Europe was near the bottom of most surveys of public concern between 1974 and 2014.
Mr. Isam, not to mention UKIP was continuing to rise in popularity.
It's interesting to consider, though, how Farage-UKIP would've fared in a notional 2020 election versus Corbyn's Labour and perhaps Osborne's Conservatives, had an EU referendum not been held.
Read my post again. I said IF the 45% Leave vote was quite evenly divided between BXP and CON, which is far from impossible.
The casual nature in which extreme Remainers accept (or ignore) the horrible ramifications of Revocation is one of the most depressing evolutions in the history of Brexit. The grievous damage done to democratic trust doesn't even figure in your calculations.
You have become a cult, like the No Dealers.
So what you are saying is that if 15% of the Leavers vote Cons, 15% vote BXP, 10% don't vote because that will show them, and 5% vote for the bloke at the hustings with the union jack top hat it won't be fair if a party wins with 35% of the vote.
You have simply proved both that you think Leavers are morons (which is fair enough) and that you are also moving into moronicity.
That's quite the statement, coming from someone who clearly doesn't understand how percentages work.
So that's a yes then. 100% of Leavers in such a scenario would be deemed morons.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
Lib Dem’s are excited at rivalling Labour for second place but it is actually great news for Brexit. The Lab/Lib split will be far more even than Con/BXP, and the latter are a lot more likely to work together strategically
Sounding a bit HYUFD-ish certain young fellah. I would say it's a brave man who can forecast the way in a four-way split, the cards will land.
Not really, it’s just my opinion on how things would go. I think that’s still allowed
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
It's pretty straightforward in my mind.
Lib Dem policy is to revoke if they get a parliamentary majority.
There is no realistic scenario under which the Lib Dems get a parliamentary majority without the country having shifted decidedly to Remain. None. Right now the Lib Dems are polling 20%ish and the polls are showing around 53/47 Remain/Leave. To get a majority, the Lib Dems need to be polling 35%, and that won't happen until the Remain/Leave balance has shifted towards 60/40.
Sure, you can construct theoretical scenarios in which every single Labour Remain voter goes to the Lib Dems overnight and thereby the Lib Dems get a majority in a 53/47 scenario. But they're bullshit. They're not going to happen.
So, you ask "do you really think that you can just annul the referendum vote"? Yes. Because the only way it could happen is if the country had already shifted decisively to Remain.
Sounds a more or less realistic summary to me. And I'd add that if Byronic's ridiculous fantasy scenario did come about, it's pretty likely the government would modify its policy.
It is true that even a seismic shift in public opinion of the magnitude realistically required for a Lib Dem majority would still leave around 15-20% of the electorate furious.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
lol. Me?
Crazed Lib Dems like you need to reflect on the fact that even Caroline Lucas - yes, Caroline Lucas - thinks the Revoke policy is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous"
The suggestions that "riots in the streets" alongside the apparent testing of "No Surrender" as a campaign slogan sees this government attempting to coopt the literal fascist street movement in this country. The likes of the EDL and neo nazis have often marched under the chants on No Surrender, whilst also giving the occasional Nazi Salute and beating up people. Now the government seem to be arguing that if we don't leave on the 31st, the people would feel so angry that they would riot, so we should ignore parliament.
Just imagine a Corbyn government. Imagine a parliament blocking renationalisation of the railways. Imagine Corbyn going "well, we may block this law because the literal Stalinists will go out in the streets if we don't, and that is a national security risk, so sorry parliament, the people come first and all that".
If you defend Johnson now, what is your argument against that? "Well, renationalisation is bad" is not an answer, because No Deal is bad.
Imagine if Remain had rioted in the streets until the referendum were over turned.
The handling of Brexit by the Tories is the mind rot that is fertiliser for the new British fascist movement. Call the opposition parties traitor remainers all you like, but straight after the referendum they all looked like they would have actually delivered a Brexit that worked had they been in government. It was only because May and now Johnson seem to want to have a Brexit without the consent of Parliament (the body supposedly taking back control) that all this is happening.
You are not of the opinion that if a party were to offer unfettered immigration it would motivate and energise the far right?
I don't care whether it does or it doesn't. The far-right will find someone to hate whatever we do. I prefer to just to take policy proposals at their own merit and not have half an eye on what my political opponents think.
What is so special about the far right that we should seek their permission to push for our own beliefs? Why am I constantly told to think about their beliefs, but not the far left's, when I think about the policy platform I'd like?
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
One could equally ask a similar set of fatuous questions about why Leavers think that Remain voters will passively accept a no-deal Brexit.
It's time for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. It was launched on a false prospectus, as is now apparent. The remedy is not to pretend that the lies in the prospectus were true but to identify what would have been done if the prospectus had been truthful in the first place.
Oh, and to clap in irons those who put that prospectus together for the damage that they have caused.
Total failure to answer the questions. But of course.
The questions are fatuous. They imply there's an outcome where British political life would continue as before June 2016. It won't. The country is on a downward spiral for a long time to come.
The first stage of recovery will be for Remainers to accept that they lost and for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. We're a long way off either of those points yet.
British political life was only less turbulent before June 2016 because the views of a large block of the country were totally ignored by parliament. The unhappiness in an unhappy marriage doesn’t start when one of them files for divorce, no matter how ignorant the other was of their partners misery.
Europe was near the bottom of most surveys of public concern between 1974 and 2014.
Good morning all. A better result for the Tories in Crawley with a strong increase in vote. Interesting that last nights results have deviated a bit from the trend of the last few weeks, indicating (perhaps) that the plates are starting to shift. Although as ever reading too much into bin collection votes is dangerous. However the 'headline' of last night would be LD gaining solid ground in labour held areas, Tory vote strengthening in 2 southern Tory held areas.
It was very interesting that, in the case of both Farage about Johnson resigning and Lucas criticisng Swinson's revoke idea, their respective voters were very critical of what their leader had said on Twitter.
One thing that might be underestimated at the next GE is the ability / willingness of BXP supporters to tactily vote Conservative in the same way that the commentary on PB and elsewhere have said that Remainers will do. I think there is a bit of an underlying assumption on here that Brexiteers are a bit "thick" to do tactical voting, unlike "sophisticated" Remain voters. I suspect that will be wrong and so look out for some very odd results.
Another factor might be if Farage decides to 'focus' on winnable seats and not stand everywhere, but I agree with the thrust of your tactical leavers argument in general
Read my post again. I said IF the 45% Leave vote was quite evenly divided between BXP and CON, which is far from impossible.
The casual nature in which extreme Remainers accept (or ignore) the horrible ramifications of Revocation is one of the most depressing evolutions in the history of Brexit. The grievous damage done to democratic trust doesn't even figure in your calculations.
You have become a cult, like the No Dealers.
So what you are saying is that if 15% of the Leavers vote Cons, 15% vote BXP, 10% don't vote because that will show them, and 5% vote for the bloke at the hustings with the union jack top hat it won't be fair if a party wins with 35% of the vote.
You have simply proved both that you think Leavers are morons (which is fair enough) and that you are also moving into moronicity.
That's quite the statement, coming from someone who clearly doesn't understand how percentages work.
So that's a yes then. 100% of Leavers in such a scenario would be deemed morons.
I'll just leave your workings here.
"15% of the Leavers vote Cons, 15% vote BXP, 10% don't vote because that will show them, and 5% vote for the bloke at the hustings with the union jack top hat it won't be fair if a party wins with 35% of the vote."
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
Lib Dem’s are excited at rivalling Labour for second place but it is actually great news for Brexit. The Lab/Lib split will be far more even than Con/BXP, and the latter are a lot more likely to work together strategically
Sounding a bit HYUFD-ish certain young fellah. I would say it's a brave man who can forecast the way in a four-way split, the cards will land.
Not really, it’s just my opinion on how things would go. I think that’s still allowed
"the Lab/lib split will be far more even than Con/BXP" fair enough it's all opinion.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If the LD got 326+ seats at a GE on a Revoke platform, then it is reasonable to say the mood of the country has changed.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
lol. Me?
Crazed Lib Dems like you need to reflect on the fact that even Caroline Lucas - yes, Caroline Lucas - thinks the Revoke policy is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous"
If the LDs win another 300+ seats and form a government under that manifesto promise they will have every right to revoke!
If seems to be a doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
If the Tories win another 30 seats they will now be able to go No Deal under a manifesto promise. Or overturn a revocation of Article 50 without a further Referendum.
Good morning all. A better result for the Tories in Crawley with a strong increase in vote. Interesting that last nights results have deviated a bit from the trend of the last few weeks, indicating (perhaps) that the plates are starting to shift. Although as ever reading too much into bin collection votes is dangerous. However the 'headline' of last night would be LD gaining solid ground in labour held areas, Tory vote strengthening in 2 southern Tory held areas.
It was very interesting that, in the case of both Farage about Johnson resigning and Lucas criticisng Swinson's revoke idea, their respective voters were very critical of what their leader had said on Twitter.
One thing that might be underestimated at the next GE is the ability / willingness of BXP supporters to tactily vote Conservative in the same way that the commentary on PB and elsewhere have said that Remainers will do. I think there is a bit of an underlying assumption on here that Brexiteers are a bit "thick" to do tactical voting, unlike "sophisticated" Remain voters. I suspect that will be wrong and so look out for some very odd results.
Exactly. Whoever would have thought these academic types would be so silly? As I said, I think it’s far more likely that the Libs and Labour vote is evenly split while the Tories eat BXP alive.
If seems to be a doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
If the Tories win another 30 seats they will now be able to go No Deal under a manifesto promise. Or overturn a revocation of Article 50 without a further Referendum.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
One could equally ask a similar set of fatuous questions about why Leavers think that Remain voters will passively accept a no-deal Brexit.
It's time for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. It was launched on a false prospectus, as is now apparent. The remedy is not to pretend that the lies in the prospectus were true but to identify what would have been done if the prospectus had been truthful in the first place.
Oh, and to clap in irons those who put that prospectus together for the damage that they have caused.
Total failure to answer the questions. But of course.
The questions are fatuous. They imply there's an outcome where British political life would continue as before June 2016. It won't. The country is on a downward spiral for a long time to come.
The first stage of recovery will be for Remainers to accept that they lost and for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. We're a long way off either of those points yet.
British political life was only less turbulent before June 2016 because the views of a large block of the country were totally ignored by parliament. The unhappiness in an unhappy marriage doesn’t start when one of them files for divorce, no matter how ignorant the other was of their partners misery.
Europe was near the bottom of most surveys of public concern between 1974 and 2014.
Oh God don’t fall for that red herring
If you're discussing political life of that period - a discussion you initiated - how is it a 'red herring' ?
Sadly it’s pretty clear this is no longer a decent country.
The definition of decent of course being having a Parliament that ignores the votes of 17 million people it seems and an electorate that accepts that without complaint
And not prepared to put that to the test with an election. Because that would be indecent.....
But you had an election in 2017! What happens if you dont get the result you want this time? Best of three? Best of seventy five!!?
If Dom Cummings is organising it will probably be "Best of an Even Number".
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
lol. Me?
Crazed Lib Dems like you need to reflect on the fact that even Caroline Lucas - yes, Caroline Lucas - thinks the Revoke policy is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous"
We return to the situation that provoked the rise in Euroscepticism. Do the same thing and expect a different result is unadulterated madness.
This madness is increased when a little future gazing is added. The core EU zone will obviously act in a way that is to the advantage of the Euro, increasing the potential for our outrage and discontent. If there is additional centralisation, that will always be well received in UK.
If we revoke to have any chance of a good relationship with our EU partners we have to go in, Euro, Schengen and be a committed part of the project. That is the only sustainable in position.
I really don't want more years of bickering discontented membership.
Either properly In, No Deal Out, EEA or EFTA are all preferable to revoke.
If seems to be a doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
If the Tories win another 30 seats they will now be able to go No Deal under a manifesto promise. Or overturn a revocation of Article 50 without a further Referendum.
That is what the LibDem policy opens up.
That was already open. That's our system.
Plus Leavers seem to ignore that's exactly the precedent Michael Foot promised in 1983.
I suspect this is where it will end up . If the Lib Dems , PC and independents who are anti no deal really want to stop it they’re going to have to put up with Corbyn.
If they refuse to do that then they can explain to their voters why they allowed the UK to crash out when they could have stopped that .
And let’s be blunt given the cesspit that now passes as no 10 . Compared to Bozo at least Corbyn wouldn’t try and break the law . The more unhinged Bozo gets the better Corbyn looks.
That is correct.
The ridiculous Benn Act is about trying to evade this outcome.
The only alternative to Johnson on the timescale actually available is Corbyn.
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Well 1 million of the 17.4m will have absolutely no trouble accepting it as they're dead. Your also forgetting b the 1 million who have never been asked their opinion.
What this shows is nothing really matters, and the public will always split along tribal lines within a week of any policy or political event no matter how big.
I suspect this is where it will end up . If the Lib Dems , PC and independents who are anti no deal really want to stop it they’re going to have to put up with Corbyn.
If they refuse to do that then they can explain to their voters why they allowed the UK to crash out when they could have stopped that .
And let’s be blunt given the cesspit that now passes as no 10 . Compared to Bozo at least Corbyn wouldn’t try and break the law . The more unhinged Bozo gets the better Corbyn looks.
That is correct.
The ridiculous Benn Act is about trying to evade this outcome.
The only alternative to Johnson on the timescale actually available is Corbyn.
It is No Deal or Corby
We’ve been assured that Boris is going to bring back a fantastic deal so why are you talking about no deal?
Thatill be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If thct either!
Pree gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
lol. Me?
Crazed Lib Dems like you need to reflect on the fact that even Caroline Lucas - yes, Caroline Lucas - thinks the Revoke policy is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous"
If the LDs win another 300+ seats and form a government under that manifesto promise they will have every right to revoke!
If seems to be a doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
If the Tories win another 30 seats they will now be able to go No Deal under a manifesto promise. Or overturn a revocation of Article 50 without a further Referendum.
That is what the LibDem policy opens up.
Of course. But again these Revoker Fascists, like Topping, Noo, and Meeks, don't care.
Madness.
Another point about Revoke, which we haven't discussed, is how it will play in an election. We're all presuming the positioning is great, is it? Every other party leader - even Lucas! - will round on Swinson as being the undemocratic snob who cancels votes. It's a really bad look. And she hasn't got a comeback.
As well as being a hostage to fortune, Revoke puts a ceiling on the Lib vote, a ceiling which was entirely unnecessary. Good tactics, terrible strategy.
That's the same Jolyon Maugham who simply wants to Revoke, like Jo Swinson.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how
Not that I would expect either!
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
Lib Dem’s are excited at rivalling Labour for second place but it is actually great news for Brexit. The Lab/Lib split will be far more even than Con/BXP, and the latter are a lot more likely to work together strategically
Sounding a bit HYUFD-ish certain young fellah. I would say it's a brave man who can forecast the way in a four-way split, the cards will land.
Not really, it’s just my opinion on how things would go. I think that’s still allowed
"the Lab/lib split will be far more even than Con/BXP" fair enough it's all opinion.
What this shows is nothing really matters, and the public will always split along tribal lines within a week of any policy or political event no matter how big.
Can you show me where in the judgment by the Supreme Court they said Boris Johnson misled the Queen?
Preposterous. The Lib Dems could win in a deeply polarised election, where they get 35% of the vote, and the Leave vote of 45% is divided each way between Tories and BXP.
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
You are getting more potty by the hour.
Whilst people keep banging on about the 17.4m who will not accept accept Revoke, we hear little about the 17m who would accept it and the 16m or so who could not be bothered to vote in 2016.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
Just a reminder - 67% of the electorate was Leave or Don't Care.
Yes. The point being that (roughly) only 1/3rd is going to grump about not getting their preferred outcome.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
The SNP backing Corbyn as PM is insufficient. Plaid joining them is insufficient. The LDs piling in is also insufficient. There is no route for PM Corbyn this side of a GE.
Read my post again. I said IF the 45% Leave vote was quite evenly divided between BXP and CON, which is far from impossible.
The casual nature in which extreme Remainers accept (or ignore) the horrible ramifications of Revocation is one of the most depressing evolutions in the history of Brexit. The grievous damage done to democratic trust doesn't even figure in your calculations.
You have become a cult, like the No Dealers.
So what you are saying is that if 15% of the Leavers vote Cons, 15% vote BXP, 10% don't vote because that will show them, and 5% vote for the bloke at the hustings with the union jack top hat it won't be fair if a party wins with 35% of the vote.
You have simply proved both that you think Leavers are morons (which is fair enough) and that you are also moving into moronicity.
That's quite the statement, coming from someone who clearly doesn't understand how percentages work.
So that's a yes then. 100% of Leavers in such a scenario would be deemed morons.
I'll just leave your workings here.
"15% of the Leavers vote Cons, 15% vote BXP, 10% don't vote because that will show them, and 5% vote for the bloke at the hustings with the union jack top hat it won't be fair if a party wins with 35% of the vote."
I don't mean to be unfair, but, you know, LOL
Are you really that dense? Or should I spell out to you "15% of the electorate..."
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
One could equally ask a similar set of fatuous questions about why Leavers think that Remain voters will passively accept a no-deal Brexit.
It's time for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. It was launched on a false prospectus, as is now apparent. The remedy is not to pretend that the lies in the prospectus were true but to identify what would have been done if the prospectus had been truthful in the first place.
Oh, and to clap in irons those who put that prospectus together for the damage that they have caused.
Total failure to answer the questions. But of course.
The questions are fatuous. They imply there's an outcome where British political life would continue as before June 2016. It won't. The country is on a downward spiral for a long time to come.
The first stage of recovery will be for Remainers to accept that they lost and for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. We're a long way off either of those points yet.
British political life was only less turbulent before June 2016 because the views of a large block of the country were totally ignored by parliament. The unhappiness in an unhappy marriage doesn’t start when one of them files for divorce, no matter how ignorant the other was of their partners misery.
Europe was near the bottom of most surveys of public concern between 1974 and 2014.
Oh God don’t fall for that red herring
If you're discussing political life of that period - a discussion you initiated - how is it a 'red herring' ?
Well I am discussing political life this decade, not the last century, but the fact that the EU didn’t tip concerns in opinion polls, while all the issues that drive people to vote leave did, is your answer.
I suspect this is where it will end up . If the Lib Dems , PC and independents who are anti no deal really want to stop it they’re going to have to put up with Corbyn.
If they refuse to do that then they can explain to their voters why they allowed the UK to crash out when they could have stopped that .
And let’s be blunt given the cesspit that now passes as no 10 . Compared to Bozo at least Corbyn wouldn’t try and break the law . The more unhinged Bozo gets the better Corbyn looks.
That is correct.
The ridiculous Benn Act is about trying to evade this outcome.
The only alternative to Johnson on the timescale actually available is Corbyn.
It is No Deal or Corby
We’ve been assured that Boris is going to bring back a fantastic deal so why are you talking about no deal?
Because I am not gullible ?
Also, from being a moderately interesting poster who posted occasionally, you now post tedious garbage repetitively.
Your choice, of course. But, I thought you had an interesting law course to do ....
And now I must go and do my absorbing job.
It is true that the lawyers on here have almost abundant time to post -- many of the most prolific posters are lawyers -- it seems as though their jobs are not very demanding!
What this shows is nothing really matters, and the public will always split along tribal lines within a week of any policy or political event no matter how big.
Can you show me where in the judgment by the Supreme Court they said Boris Johnson misled the Queen?
It didn't... though what other inferences would you draw from this ?
It is impossible for us to conclude, on the evidence which has been put before us, that there was any reason - let alone a good reason - to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament for five weeks, from 9th or 12th September until 14th October. We cannot speculate, in the absence of further evidence, upon what such reasons might have been. It follows that the decision was unlawful.
Comments
We all know BoZo is a sleazy adulterer so probably priced in IMO.
Further questions for Lib Dem Revokers. Do you guys really think that you can just annul the referendum vote, and all will be well? Do you honestly believe that 17.4 million Leave voters will simply accept this, roll over, let you silence them, and British political life will continue as before June 2016?
What gives you this confidence, in the light of everything we've seen since the referendum?
And if you accept there will be serious blowback, how much damage and strife are you prepared to tolerate, to get Revoke and Remain?
You need to answer these questions, because they will be incessantly hurled at Lib Dems, by left and right, by Lab, BXP, Greens and Tories, during a general election.
If someone wants to threaten me for having a political opinion, the police will deal with them. I haven't converted to Islam because of islamists, I haven't changed my opinion on Northern Ireland because of republican and unionist terror, and I don't change my opinion on the EU because a few headcases smash some MPs' windows.
You can't threaten me into changing my mind.
For once, Mr Meeks is right. He's always been a fanatical Remainer but he did accept the decision of the electorate. However as the delaying tactics of the Remainer majority MPs have begun to work, he's seen a chink of light. Unfortunately, so has the EU so the chances of any meaningful renegotiation have disappeared.
They scent the smell of victory in their nostrils.
But it's at the expense of a united country. No more glad confident morning. Back into the wildwoods for the weasels and stoats.
"This leads to me to [sic] the greatest betrayal and the final straw for many MPs. I have been told and shown evidence by an overwhelming number of unimpeachably neutral Labour remain staff that Corbyn’s office, for which he must take full responsibility, consistently attempted to weaken and sabotage the Labour remain campaign, in contravention of the party’s official position. "
Thank god he didn't say surrender...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/26/corbyn-must-resign-inadequate-leader-betrayal
You need to answer my other questions below.
The referendum originated as a Tory party project, and they have endeavoured throughout to make the manner in which we leave an exclusively Tory project, even when the electorate refused them a Parliamentary majority.
That is why we are where we are.
I was at the event where Major spoke last night. His cold fury at what Johnson is doing to his party was palpable. Quite remarkable to hear that kind of language about the current PM from a former PM in his own party.
Revoke is not in itself irreversible, but it does allow the UK to take back control of the Brexit process. It could lead to a coherent compromise EEA type proposal and a re-invocation.
Not that I would expect either!
It's time for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. It was launched on a false prospectus, as is now apparent. The remedy is not to pretend that the lies in the prospectus were true but to identify what would have been done if the prospectus had been truthful in the first place.
Oh, and to clap in irons those who put that prospectus together for the damage that they have caused.
Lib Dem policy is to revoke if they get a parliamentary majority.
There is no realistic scenario under which the Lib Dems get a parliamentary majority without the country having shifted decidedly to Remain. None. Right now the Lib Dems are polling 20%ish and the polls are showing around 53/47 Remain/Leave. To get a majority, the Lib Dems need to be polling 35%, and that won't happen until the Remain/Leave balance has shifted towards 60/40.
Sure, you can construct theoretical scenarios in which every single Labour Remain voter goes to the Lib Dems overnight and thereby the Lib Dems get a majority in a 53/47 scenario. But they're bullshit. They're not going to happen.
So, you ask "do you really think that you can just annul the referendum vote"? Yes. Because the only way it could happen is if the country had already shifted decisively to Remain.
"The Brexit Party"
No ifs no buts....
That wouldn't say ANYTHING about the changed mood of the nation. It would be status quo ante.
And now imagine the Lib Dems try and force through their Revoke, with 45% of the country bitterly opposed, and filled with righteous (and justified) anger.
It's a fucking nightmare and you know it's a fucking nightmare and yet you blithely accept it. Again, you are as pig-headed and witless as the gammoniest UKIP MEP.
Apologies for misspelling your name.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1177498856579186691
You personally don't get to talk about threats after you personally threatening me (and others) a few weeks ago.
I don't give in to terror, I don't give in to you.
The casual nature in which extreme Remainers accept (or ignore) the horrible ramifications of Revocation is one of the most depressing evolutions in the history of Brexit. The grievous damage done to democratic trust doesn't even figure in your calculations.
You have become a cult, like the No Dealers.
I think the traditional expression is 'Its a view'
You are not of the opinion that if a party were to offer unfettered immigration it would motivate and energise the far right?
The general rule is where you push in one direction there will be a reaction in the opposite direction. This response will in turn will create a more pure (or extreme, take your pick) ripple in the original direction.
Once the pendulum stops swinging wildly it is possible to return to a gentle rhythmic metronomic state of relative stability.
The first stage of recovery will be for Remainers to accept that they lost and for Leavers to accept that Brexit has failed. We're a long way off either of those points yet.
Probably a Nico Hulkenberg fan.
You have simply proved both that you think Leavers are morons (which is fair enough) and that you are also moving into moronicity.
Crazed Lib Dems like you need to reflect on the fact that even Caroline Lucas - yes, Caroline Lucas - thinks the Revoke policy is "arrogant, self-indulgent, cynical and very dangerous"
She's right.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/18/caroline-lucas-lib-dems-revoke-and-remain-stance-brexit-is-arrogant
BTW, no doubt remainers have indulged in delaying tactics, but in the third MV, the majority was 58, and 34 Tories voted against the government. With their support it would have won. When leavers had their chance the fanatics blew it.
Maybe if he'd vetoed Maastricht or put it rather than ultimately our membership to a referendum things could have been different.
https://democracy.crawley.gov.uk/mgElectionAreaResults.aspx?XXR=0&ID=37&RPID=1809949
One thing that might be underestimated at the next GE is the ability / willingness of BXP supporters to tactily vote Conservative in the same way that the commentary on PB and elsewhere have said that Remainers will do. I think there is a bit of an underlying assumption on here that Brexiteers are a bit "thick" to do tactical voting, unlike "sophisticated" Remain voters. I suspect that will be wrong and so look out for some very odd results.
It's interesting to consider, though, how Farage-UKIP would've fared in a notional 2020 election versus Corbyn's Labour and perhaps Osborne's Conservatives, had an EU referendum not been held.
Just a reminder - 65% of the electorate was Remain or Don't Care.
And I'd add that if Byronic's ridiculous fantasy scenario did come about, it's pretty likely the government would modify its policy.
It is true that even a seismic shift in public opinion of the magnitude realistically required for a Lib Dem majority would still leave around 15-20% of the electorate furious.
Just imagine a Corbyn government. Imagine a parliament blocking renationalisation of the railways. Imagine Corbyn going "well, we may block this law because the literal Stalinists will go out in the streets if we don't, and that is a national security risk, so sorry parliament, the people come first and all that".
If you defend Johnson now, what is your argument against that? "Well, renationalisation is bad" is not an answer, because No Deal is bad.
Imagine if Remain had rioted in the streets until the referendum were over turned.
The handling of Brexit by the Tories is the mind rot that is fertiliser for the new British fascist movement. Call the opposition parties traitor remainers all you like, but straight after the referendum they all looked like they would have actually delivered a Brexit that worked had they been in government. It was only because May and now Johnson seem to want to have a Brexit without the consent of Parliament (the body supposedly taking back control) that all this is happening.
What is so special about the far right that we should seek their permission to push for our own beliefs? Why am I constantly told to think about their beliefs, but not the far left's, when I think about the policy platform I'd like?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pictured-man-who-took-out-20307832
"15% of the Leavers vote Cons, 15% vote BXP, 10% don't vote because that will show them, and 5% vote for the bloke at the hustings with the union jack top hat it won't be fair if a party wins with 35% of the vote."
I don't mean to be unfair, but, you know, LOL
If the Tories win another 30 seats they will now be able to go No Deal under a manifesto promise. Or overturn a revocation of Article 50 without a further Referendum.
That is what the LibDem policy opens up.
The ridiculous Benn Act is about trying to evade this outcome.
The only alternative to Johnson on the timescale actually available is Corbyn.
It is No Deal or Corby
https://mobile.twitter.com/YouGov/status/1177503524302675968
What this shows is nothing really matters, and the public will always split along tribal lines within a week of any policy or political event no matter how big.
Madness.
Another point about Revoke, which we haven't discussed, is how it will play in an election. We're all presuming the positioning is great, is it? Every other party leader - even Lucas! - will round on Swinson as being the undemocratic snob who cancels votes. It's a really bad look. And she hasn't got a comeback.
As well as being a hostage to fortune, Revoke puts a ceiling on the Lib vote, a ceiling which was entirely unnecessary. Good tactics, terrible strategy.
So all this talk of the entire UK population rising up in outrage with their pitchforks and torches is, frankly, tripe.
Also, from being a moderately interesting poster who posted occasionally, you now post tedious garbage repetitively.
Your choice, of course. But, I thought you had an interesting law course to do ....
And now I must go and do my absorbing job.
It is true that the lawyers on here have almost abundant time to post -- many of the most prolific posters are lawyers -- it seems as though their jobs are not very demanding!
It is impossible for us to conclude, on the evidence which has been put before us, that there was any reason - let alone a good reason - to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament for five weeks, from 9th or 12th September until 14th October. We cannot speculate, in the absence of further evidence, upon what such reasons might have been. It follows that the decision was unlawful.