As I floated earlier, Ma Beckett and her government would be made up of the half of the Labour Party looking to disconnect from Corbyn, the SNP, ex Tory rebels etc etc. The Labour and Tory front benches will sit it out and sit chuntering alongside each other from a sedentary position
I would expect Corbyn to make it clear he will expel any Labour MP who did this.
Perhaps. But remember, a GNU is in his interest. He can't boot Johnson because like Johnson he is terrified of putting his name to an extension to A50. Anyway, why boot them - won't have time to select new candidates. And as he is nailed on to win a majority of 704 he'll be able to have his Momentum Blackshirts slowly remove them at their leisure.
It is absolutely in Corbyn's interest to get into No 10.
I am not sure Corbyn is terrified of extending. He can just say he is extending so he can have time to begin his "new negotiations".
I see ZERO advantage for Corbyn in allowing anyone to usurp his place. In fact, it is incredibly dangerous to allow a semi-competent rival from the Labour Party to be PM.
Corbyn will be sent for by HM. And I expect he will become PM. Who is going to stop him -- the mighty LibDems?
The Tories don't have to VNOC Corbyn immediately. Who knows, they might prefer an incompetent Corbyn to a competent PM ?
How many times are leavers going to threaten violence....it is tedious.....someone who keeps going on about how they are going to hit you, rarely does. If they really want to become terrorists I am sure the police and judges can deal with them.
Here’s Irish ex pm John Bruton threatening Boris Johnson with assassination, today.
Should this Remainer be jailed? Far worse than anything Starkey has said.
He hasnt. No. Nor should Starkey be jailed. Tedious remarks do not require jail yet, fortunately for most of us on here myself included, it is merely irritating and not constructive.
As I floated earlier, Ma Beckett and her government would be made up of the half of the Labour Party looking to disconnect from Corbyn, the SNP, ex Tory rebels etc etc. The Labour and Tory front benches will sit it out and sit chuntering alongside each other from a sedentary position
Won't happen in that way - Beckett's roots in Labour are far too deep to be a sort of Ramsay Macdonald mark 2. I wouldn't rule out Labour backing her eventually, so long as Corbyn is given a chance first.
Yes, it’s very possible it doesn’t happen until Corbyn has tried first and failed.
I’m not sure what that means. If Boris resigns or loses a VoNC, does the Queen send for him by default? Or does she wait until the Commons have voted on a series of options of alternative administrations whilst Boris acts as caretaker first?
Crucial for betting purposes. If Corbyn is PM even for only a day, all our exciting bets lose.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
As I floated earlier, Ma Beckett and her government would be made up of the half of the Labour Party looking to disconnect from Corbyn, the SNP, ex Tory rebels etc etc. The Labour and Tory front benches will sit it out and sit chuntering alongside each other from a sedentary position
Won't happen in that way - Beckett's roots in Labour are far too deep to be a sort of Ramsay Macdonald mark 2. I wouldn't rule out Labour backing her eventually, so long as Corbyn is given a chance first.
Yes, it’s very possible it doesn’t happen until Corbyn has tried first and failed.
I’m not sure what that means. If Boris resigns or loses a VoNC, does the Queen send for him by default? Or does she wait until the Commons have voted on a series of options of alternative administrations whilst Boris acts as caretaker first?
Crucial for betting purposes. If Corbyn is PM even for only a day, all our exciting bets lose.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
I wonder whether the PM and A-G would agree with the following:-
"And you know, my friends, the most difficult thing is to explain what a rule of law is, as distinct from just an oppressive law. They say, well we've got a lot of regulations, the government makes them, the government dictates to us. That's not what a rule of law is, I say. It's having wise judges who decide fairly and whose decisions are taken and honoured. It's having your laws made in a parliament which is accountable to the people and which you know are going to be honourably administered. That's why we don't just call it law, we call it a rule of law. You cannot have freedom without a rule of law, and that is the most difficult thing, I think, to get into countries that have never known it."
Or this:-
The third guarantee of liberty is the rule of law. The idea that all are equal under the law is deeply rooted in our democratic systems and nowhere else..... The thought that no one in the state can escape the law is, after all, a daring one...... This is not a thought which the powerful can easily accept. Those who hold sway in totalitarian states take good care that the rule of law does not challenge their authority."
You realize all of the above applies, with some fierce poignancy, to the Establishment which now seeks to subvert the democratic brexit vote. Right?
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
And if Jo Swinson gets a majority in the HoC, you're happy with that mandate to Revoke, too?
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Why ? Why should a General Election on the terms of this discredited government. First and foremost, the agenda of the majority in this Parliament must be implemented [ from what is already enacted ] and then a General election should be held. I am not sure that all 21 expelled Tory MPs plus the CHUKs or ex-CHUKs would necessarily agree. They may want a People's vote done first.
Then Parliament should replace the executive
We do not have government by a committee of the whole house
The FTPA is a corrosive piece of legislation
The government has no right to demand that events take place at its dictation. It made its bed and it is lying on it. It will have to wait until it suits others to dispose of it.
But parliament cannot just exist in its own self-important vacuum. It is appointed by and responsible to the people. It is subservient to them. The people expect and deserve functional government. If parliament cannot, as is evident, provide a functioning government made up of its own members then it has failed and should dissolve itself. It is not acceptable a parliament should deliberately allow a zombie government to exist. It is not right or fair to the electorate but pure party political gamesmanship. And I don’t care whether that’s blue, red or yellow game playing.
As I floated earlier, Ma Beckett and her government would be made up of the half of the Labour Party looking to disconnect from Corbyn, the SNP, ex Tory rebels etc etc. The Labour and Tory front benches will sit it out and sit chuntering alongside each other from a sedentary position
I would expect Corbyn to make it clear he will expel any Labour MP who did this.
Perhaps. But remember, a GNU is in his interest. He can't boot Johnson because like Johnson he is terrified of putting his name to an extension to A50. Anyway, why boot them - won't have time to select new candidates. And as he is nailed on to win a majority of 704 he'll be able to have his Momentum Blackshirts slowly remove them at their leisure.
It is absolutely in Corbyn's interest to get into No 10.
I am not sure Corbyn is terrified of extending. He can just say he is extending so he can have time to begin his "new negotiations".
I see ZERO advantage for Corbyn in allowing anyone to usurp his place. In fact, it is incredibly dangerous to allow a semi-competent rival from the Labour Party to be PM.
Corbyn will be sent for by HM. And I expect he will become PM. Who is going to stop him -- the mighty LibDems?
The Tories don't have to VNOC Corbyn immediately. Who knows, they might prefer an incompetent Corbyn to a competent PM ?
His entire election pitch is that he is neutral on Brexit. Extending A50 will not be seen as neutral
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
And if Jo Swinson gets a majority in the HoC, you're happy with that mandate to Revoke, too?
Of course he wouldn’t. He’d just rabble rabble about the referendum.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
And if Jo Swinson gets a majority in the HoC, you're happy with that mandate to Revoke, too?
Well won't be happy but yes. If Jo Swinson gets a majority to revoke then of course she can revoke if she wants...
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
No, the current Commons voted against EUref2 and revoke.
The people elected a 'Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop' parliament
"A Prime Minister is more than simply a party leader and has an obligation to take their constitutional obligations seriously, including the interests of Parliament"
There's only one sensible person in here, and she's called CycleFree.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
No, the current Commons voted against EUref2 and revoke.
The people elected a 'Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop' parliament
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
Not really as both Con and Lab manifestos committed to leaving the EU.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
This fake government is not entitled to an election on its own terms. It can wait until other approaches have been tried out.
Frozen in the case of Sir John Major who, 26 years after the misery caused by the “bastards” in his party, has finally got his own back.
What misery was that ?
It wasn't Boris who increased interest rates by 5% and pissed away billions in an attempt to keep sterling at the wrong exchange rate.
If you want to make comparisons then the bitter desire to blame others for his own mistakes which Major has wallowed in for 27 years seems to be a regular trait among Conservative politicians.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
Not really as both Con and Lab manifestos committed to leaving the EU.
Nice try though.
Sigh. I’m not the one calling this a ‘remain’ parliament. Those are the words of populist scum.
Labour did not commit to leave the EU, whatever it takes, by October 31st.
If the election is held before 31st October, then Johnson can tell Brexiteers that he will still take them out before that date and thereby squeeze BXP votes. Even if the Art.50 letter is sent, it can be rescinded. I am not sure how the opposition can "guarantee" that extension is indeed carried out unless election date is after 31.10.2019
At this point, it is literally impossible to hold a legally valid election by 31 October. The next question is whether we want to have Brexit happen in the middle of an election campaign. I'd have thought not, if only on practical grounds - there will no doubt be a few matters for Min isters to attend to and they can't do that and simultaneously make speeches in Carlisle and Scunthorpe and smultaneously observe the purdah rule that nothing controversial can be during during an election.
Does a one line bill have to follow the 25 days rule ? After all, the one line bill will start with the words: "Not withstanding FTPA 2011...…."
As I floated earlier, Ma Beckett and her government would be made up of the half of the Labour Party looking to disconnect from Corbyn, the SNP, ex Tory rebels etc etc. The Labour and Tory front benches will sit it out and sit chuntering alongside each other from a sedentary position
I would expect Corbyn to make it clear he will expel any Labour MP who did this.
Perhaps. But remember, a GNU is in his interest. He can't boot Johnson because like Johnson he is terrified of putting his name to an extension to A50. Anyway, why boot them - won't have time to select new candidates. And as he is nailed on to win a majority of 704 he'll be able to have his Momentum Blackshirts slowly remove them at their leisure.
It is absolutely in Corbyn's interest to get into No 10.
I am not sure Corbyn is terrified of extending. He can just say he is extending so he can have time to begin his "new negotiations".
I see ZERO advantage for Corbyn in allowing anyone to usurp his place. In fact, it is incredibly dangerous to allow a semi-competent rival from the Labour Party to be PM.
Corbyn will be sent for by HM. And I expect he will become PM. Who is going to stop him -- the mighty LibDems?
The Tories don't have to VNOC Corbyn immediately. Who knows, they might prefer an incompetent Corbyn to a competent PM ?
His entire election pitch is that he is neutral on Brexit. Extending A50 will not be seen as neutral
But since Labour are not in favour of revoking any plan requires extension, so if his current position is acceptable to Labour leavers so will extending to enact the current policy. They seem to be labour first, leavers second.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
Not really as both Con and Lab manifestos committed to leaving the EU.
Nice try though.
Sigh. I’m not the one calling this a ‘remain’ parliament. Those are the words of populist scum.
Labour did not commit to leave the EU, whatever it takes, by October 31st.
Before Lab goes for VONC, PM must have sent letter requesting extension AND the extension must have been granted by the EU.
Above suggests VONC can't be brought forward - ie even if Commons forces letter to be sent early, have to wait for EU agreement which presumably would only happen at EU Summit.
As I floated earlier, Ma Beckett and her government would be made up of the half of the Labour Party looking to disconnect from Corbyn, the SNP, ex Tory rebels etc etc. The Labour and Tory front benches will sit it out and sit chuntering alongside each other from a sedentary position
I would expect Corbyn to make it clear he will expel any Labour MP who did this.
Perhaps. But remember, a GNU is in his interest. He can't boot Johnson because like Johnson he is terrified of putting his name to an extension to A50. Anyway, why boot them - won't have time to select new candidates. And as he is nailed on to win a majority of 704 he'll be able to have his Momentum Blackshirts slowly remove them at their leisure.
It is absolutely in Corbyn's interest to get into No 10.
I am not sure Corbyn is terrified of extending. He can just say he is extending so he can have time to begin his "new negotiations".
I see ZERO advantage for Corbyn in allowing anyone to usurp his place. In fact, it is incredibly dangerous to allow a semi-competent rival from the Labour Party to be PM.
Corbyn will be sent for by HM. And I expect he will become PM. Who is going to stop him -- the mighty LibDems?
The Tories don't have to VNOC Corbyn immediately. Who knows, they might prefer an incompetent Corbyn to a competent PM ?
Without LD and Tory rebel support, which is not there for him unlike for Beckett, Corbyn has zero chance of becoming PM before a general election
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
And if Jo Swinson gets a majority in the HoC, you're happy with that mandate to Revoke, too?
Will of the People. The 2016 referendum does not override the 2017 election or any future election
Useful support for Boris from McLoughlin and Hunt.
He's got a united party I think
The expulsion of the rebels, and aftermath, was a crucial moment. A bit like the Tigger defections for Labour anyone who who stuck it out after the critical event is now there for good, regardless of what happens - hang together now or they will hang separately. If they have calculated based on yesterday that Boris remains the only option, nothing will ever adjust that calculation again this side of an election.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
And if Jo Swinson gets a majority in the HoC, you're happy with that mandate to Revoke, too?
Of course he wouldn’t. He’d just rabble rabble about the referendum.
More sensibly he should rabble about PR, as should remainers if Bozo gets a majority from a third of the vote.
As I floated earlier, Ma Beckett and her government would be made up of the half of the Labour Party looking to disconnect from Corbyn, the SNP, ex Tory rebels etc etc. The Labour and Tory front benches will sit it out and sit chuntering alongside each other from a sedentary position
Won't happen in that way - Beckett's roots in Labour are far too deep to be a sort of Ramsay Macdonald mark 2. I wouldn't rule out Labour backing her eventually, so long as Corbyn is given a chance first.
The numbers won't allow it that way anyway. it will need all or most of the labour party to achieve a small majority
Unless the Tories abstain, making Beckett (or whoever) PM, Johnson LotO and Corbyn irrelevant.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
This fake government is not entitled to an election on its own terms. It can wait until other approaches have been tried out.
You're focusing on outcomes, not processes.
‘Exhaust every option before going for an election’ is a statement of process, not outcome.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Why ? Why should a General Election on the terms of this discredited government. First and foremost, the agenda of the majority in this Parliament must be implemented [ from what is already enacted ] and then a General election should be held. I am not sure that all 21 expelled Tory MPs plus the CHUKs or ex-CHUKs would necessarily agree. They may want a People's vote done first.
Then Parliament should replace the executive
We do not have government by a committee of the whole house
The FTPA is a corrosive piece of legislation
The government has no right to demand that events take place at its dictation. It made its bed and it is lying on it. It will have to wait until it suits others to dispose of it.
But parliament cannot just exist in its own self-important vacuum. It is appointed by and responsible to the people. It is subservient to them. The people expect and deserve functional government. If parliament cannot, as is evident, provide a functioning government made up of its own members then it has failed and should dissolve itself. It is not acceptable a parliament should deliberately allow a zombie government to exist. It is not right or fair to the electorate but pure party political gamesmanship. And I don’t care whether that’s blue, red or yellow game playing.
The gamesmanship comes from a fake government desperate to engineer an election on its terms to stay in an office it never earned. Rightly, its opponents are having none of it.
Before Lab goes for VONC, PM must have sent letter requesting extension AND the extension must have been granted by the EU.
Above suggests VONC can't be brought forward - ie even if Commons forces letter to be sent early, have to wait for EU agreement which presumably would only happen at EU Summit.
I guess if they are confident EU will accept they could jump start VONC while awaiting the formal word, but it does seem a tricky thing to risk.
A shame too, since even for this parliament they seem like they will just waste time yelling at each other for 3 weeks until next forced into action, and it'd be nice to short cut that.
Before Lab goes for VONC, PM must have sent letter requesting extension AND the extension must have been granted by the EU.
Above suggests VONC can't be brought forward - ie even if Commons forces letter to be sent early, have to wait for EU agreement which presumably would only happen at EU Summit.
If the EU want to agree an extension beforehand they can , the other 27 leaders can just agree to it . Its not essential that they all meet up at the Summit . If it’s for a general election then it won’t be an issue .
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
And if Jo Swinson gets a majority in the HoC, you're happy with that mandate to Revoke, too?
Well won't be happy but yes. If Jo Swinson gets a majority to revoke then of course she can revoke if she wants...
But it does set the precedent for finally leaving the EU without a further referendum - as long as there is a majority in Westminster.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
Not really as both Con and Lab manifestos committed to leaving the EU.
Nice try though.
Sigh. I’m not the one calling this a ‘remain’ parliament. Those are the words of populist scum.
Labour did not commit to leave the EU, whatever it takes, by October 31st.
You seem oddly rattled?
I'm rattled. I'm rattled by the populist scum on this website cheering a PM who shut down parliament illegally. A profound danger to the rule of law and the democratic institutions of this country. Anyone who isn't rattled by this is sleepwalking into a repressive authoritarian disaster. Wake the fuck up.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
I don't recall that being the argument when leavers were agitating for for a referendum in the first place.
If the only thing that counts is how many people sit on the green leather benches then why didn't the Brexiteers wait until they elected a Pro-Brexit Parliament?
Seems Brexiteers change the goal posts as they go to suit themselves. Same way that No Deal went from being "Project Fear" to being the only true Brexit.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Blair won a 66 seat majority in 2005 with 35% of the popular vote.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Why ? Why should a General Election on the terms of this discredited government. First and foremost, the agenda of the majority in this Parliament must be implemented [ from what is already enacted ] and then a General election should be held. I am not sure that all 21 expelled Tory MPs plus the CHUKs or ex-CHUKs would necessarily agree. They may want a People's vote done first.
Then Parliament should replace the executive
We do not have government by a committee of the whole house
The FTPA is a corrosive piece of legislation
The government has notil it suits others to dispose of it.
But parliament cannot just exist in its own self-important vacuum. It is appointed by and responsible to the people. It is subservient to them. The people expect and deserve functional government. If parliament cannot, as is evident, provide a functioning government made up of its own members then it has failed and should dissolve itself. It is not acceptable a parliament should deliberately allow a zombie government to exist. It is not right or fair to the electorate but pure party political gamesmanship. And I don’t care whether that’s blue, red or yellow game playing.
The gamesmanship comes from a fake government desperate to engineer an election on its terms to stay in an office it never earned. Rightly, its opponents are having none of it.
Yes the government have behaved disgracefully. I don't quite see, however, where having no functioning government for however long it takes for the opposition to be confident the tories would lose an election, is a good thing either.
They can remove Boris and not engineer an election on terms Boris wants. It's not either they leave him in place or they must play his game.
But Lab policy is only 7% of University places can go to private pupils.
Result: Physically impossible for half of private school 6th formers to go to University (even if EVERY state school 6th former does go!)
Not necessarily. That would assume a perfect correlation between the numbers of A-level students and university places, which isn't the case. An awful lot of university students come from overseas, for example.
It's still a daft policy, for all sorts of reasons I have rehearsed at length. A non-political colleague this afternoon turned to me and said, 'That Corbyn, he's fucking mental, isn't he?'
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
Not really as both Con and Lab manifestos committed to leaving the EU.
Nice try though.
Sigh. I’m not the one calling this a ‘remain’ parliament. Those are the words of populist scum.
Labour did not commit to leave the EU, whatever it takes, by October 31st.
You seem oddly rattled?
I'm rattled. I'm rattled by the populist scum on this website cheering a PM who shut down parliament illegally. A profound danger to the rule of law and the democratic institutions of this country. Anyone who isn't rattled by this is sleepwalking into a repressive authoritarian disaster. Wake the fuck up.
This repressive authoritarian wants a GE now. Hardly in keeping with your description.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
Not really as both Con and Lab manifestos committed to leaving the EU.
Nice try though.
Sigh. I’m not the one calling this a ‘remain’ parliament. Those are the words of populist scum.
Labour did not commit to leave the EU, whatever it takes, by October 31st.
You seem oddly rattled?
I'm rattled. I'm rattled by the populist scum on this website cheering a PM who shut down parliament illegally. A profound danger to the rule of law and the democratic institutions of this country. Anyone who isn't rattled by this is sleepwalking into a repressive authoritarian disaster. Wake the fuck up.
They don’t even pretend any more: suspending democracy for Brexit is now not just an acceptable price to pay but its prohibition showed the judges to be the enemy.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
This fake government is not entitled to an election on its own terms. It can wait until other approaches have been tried out.
You're focusing on outcomes, not processes.
I didn’t get your point on this earlier.
All successful programmes, projects, charities and businesses I’ve been involved with have been absolutely focussed on outcomes. It’s project management 101.
Yes, you do need to follow due process, in other words to be legally and regulatory compliant, but dozens of businesses become slaves to unnecessary process that they create themselves which leads them absolutely nowhere, and at great cost too.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
Not really as both Con and Lab manifestos committed to leaving the EU.
Nice try though.
Sigh. I’m not the one calling this a ‘remain’ parliament. Those are the words of populist scum.
Labour did not commit to leave the EU, whatever it takes, by October 31st.
You seem oddly rattled?
I'm rattled. I'm rattled by the populist scum on this website cheering a PM who shut down parliament illegally. A profound danger to the rule of law and the democratic institutions of this country. Anyone who isn't rattled by this is sleepwalking into a repressive authoritarian disaster. Wake the fuck up.
This repressive authoritarian wants a GE now. Hardly in keeping with your description.
Don’t fall into the trap thinking that democracy prevents repression and authoritarianism.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
Not really as both Con and Lab manifestos committed to leaving the EU.
Nice try though.
Sigh. I’m not the one calling this a ‘remain’ parliament. Those are the words of populist scum.
Labour did not commit to leave the EU, whatever it takes, by October 31st.
You seem oddly rattled?
I'm rattled. I'm rattled by the populist scum on this website cheering a PM who shut down parliament illegally. A profound danger to the rule of law and the democratic institutions of this country. Anyone who isn't rattled by this is sleepwalking into a repressive authoritarian disaster. Wake the fuck up.
This repressive authoritarian wants a GE now. Hardly in keeping with your description.
Authoritarian regimes have elections too. Just so you know.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
No, it is a better way of resolving it (not least because while it has its own problems, unlike a GE it cannot be completely indecisive), not the only way. I truly despise the way people use the word mandate, and as in this case that is just how our system works. I think it would be politically silly and risky to take us out of the EU or revoke based on a FPTP majority on 35% of the vote, but that is all the mandate that our system has ever required. Heck, they don't even need the mandate of a referendum or a GE to revoke or no deal right now even if they'd said they would never do either, it's just stupid to do that.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
Not really as both Con and Lab manifestos committed to leaving the EU.
Nice try though.
Sigh. I’m not the one calling this a ‘remain’ parliament. Those are the words of populist scum.
Labour did not commit to leave the EU, whatever it takes, by October 31st.
You seem oddly rattled?
I'm rattled. I'm rattled by the populist scum on this website cheering a PM who shut down parliament illegally. A profound danger to the rule of law and the democratic institutions of this country. Anyone who isn't rattled by this is sleepwalking into a repressive authoritarian disaster. Wake the fuck up.
This repressive authoritarian wants a GE now. Hardly in keeping with your description.
Authoritarian regimes have elections too. Just so you know.
So we'll have them if the other third rate mad Nazi apologist gets into power as well? (Asking for a friend.)
But Lab policy is only 7% of University places can go to private pupils.
Result: Physically impossible for half of private school 6th formers to go to University (even if EVERY state school 6th former does go!)
Not necessarily. That would assume a perfect correlation between the numbers of A-level students and university places, which isn't the case. An awful lot of university students come from overseas, for example.
It's still a daft policy, for all sorts of reasons I have rehearsed at length. A non-political colleague this afternoon turned to me and said, 'That Corbyn, he's fucking mental, isn't he?'
Hard to argue, to be fair...
Are Labour going to include foreign students in their quota i.e. do foreign private educated count as part of the 7%?
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
And if Jo Swinson gets a majority in the HoC, you're happy with that mandate to Revoke, too?
Well won't be happy but yes. If Jo Swinson gets a majority to revoke then of course she can revoke if she wants...
But it does set the precedent for finally leaving the EU without a further referendum - as long as there is a majority in Westminster.
Fair enough. I look forward to a potential party of Government promising to put the country through at least two years of this again and expecting to get elected.
The gamesmanship comes from a fake government desperate to engineer an election on its terms to stay in an office it never earned. Rightly, its opponents are having none of it.
Yes the government have behaved disgracefully. I don't quite see, however, where having no functioning government for however long it takes for the opposition to be confident the tories would lose an election, is a good thing either.
They can remove Boris and not engineer an election on terms Boris wants. It's not either they leave him in place or they must play his game.
It won’t take very long before this wretched government can be scrunched up and discarded like a used tissue. Five weeks tops.
But Lab policy is only 7% of University places can go to private pupils.
Result: Physically impossible for half of private school 6th formers to go to University (even if EVERY state school 6th former does go!)
Not necessarily. That would assume a perfect correlation between the numbers of A-level students and university places, which isn't the case. An awful lot of university students come from overseas, for example.
It's still a daft policy, for all sorts of reasons I have rehearsed at length. A non-political colleague this afternoon turned to me and said, 'That Corbyn, he's fucking mental, isn't he?'
Hard to argue, to be fair...
Are Labour going to include foreign students in their quota i.e. do foreign private educated count against?
Because they are thick, and none of them have the least clue about how universities work, they probably haven't thought of this yet.
What may also not have occurred to them is the issue of foreign students in British private schools - which category do they come into?
But Lab policy is only 7% of University places can go to private pupils.
Result: Physically impossible for half of private school 6th formers to go to University (even if EVERY state school 6th former does go!)
That's not true, because it ignores the fact that not everybody going to University is from the British system. (If half of all places went to foreigners, then 14% of the British intake would come from private schools under the Labour scheme. Yes, I know the numbers are rubbish, but I'm just pointing out that his maths are necessarily true.)
Well won't be happy but yes. If Jo Swinson gets a majority to revoke then of course she can revoke if she wants...
But it does set the precedent for finally leaving the EU without a further referendum - as long as there is a majority in Westminster.
Of course. We have a democratic system where parliament is sovereign. Any given parliament can pass any law that it sees fit. If a majority of MPs vote for no deal then that is entirely legitimate. Mad, but legit. Others may think revoke is also mad, but again if passed by majority vote is legit.
What is really sad about this painful spectacle is the sight of people who know better making all sorts of absurd points which they know to be preposterous. The "will of the people" in 2016 does not overrule the will of the people in 2017 or 2019 or in any other future election. Thats not how it works.
But Lab policy is only 7% of University places can go to private pupils.
Result: Physically impossible for half of private school 6th formers to go to University (even if EVERY state school 6th former does go!)
Not necessarily. That would assume a perfect correlation between the numbers of A-level students and university places, which isn't the case. An awful lot of university students come from overseas, for example.
It's still a daft policy, for all sorts of reasons I have rehearsed at length. A non-political colleague this afternoon turned to me and said, 'That Corbyn, he's fucking mental, isn't he?'
Hard to argue, to be fair...
Are Labour going to include foreign students in their quota i.e. do foreign private educated count against?
Because they are thick, and none of them have the least clue about how universities work, they probably haven't thought of this yet.
What may also not have occurred to them is the issue of foreign students in British private schools - which category do they come into?
And when Labour open the borders, what counts as a foreign student?
But Lab policy is only 7% of University places can go to private pupils.
Result: Physically impossible for half of private school 6th formers to go to University (even if EVERY state school 6th former does go!)
That's not true, because it ignores the fact that not everybody going to University is from the British system. (If half of all places went to foreigners, then 14% of the British intake would come from private schools under the Labour scheme. Yes, I know the numbers are rubbish, but I'm just pointing out that his maths are necessarily true.)
Of course, Labour's policy is batshit crazy
All Labour's policy are now officially batshit crazy. They didn't keep a single sane and good one. They went for things that made even that criminal lunatic Hugo Chavez look reasonably restrained.
They're like Boris Johnson only much stupider and greedier, and with much less interest in the welfare of ordinary people.
But Lab policy is only 7% of University places can go to private pupils.
Result: Physically impossible for half of private school 6th formers to go to University (even if EVERY state school 6th former does go!)
Not necessarily. That would assume a perfect correlation between the numbers of A-level students and university places, which isn't the case. An awful lot of university students come from overseas, for example.
It's still a daft policy, for all sorts of reasons I have rehearsed at length. A non-political colleague this afternoon turned to me and said, 'That Corbyn, he's fucking mental, isn't he?'
Hard to argue, to be fair...
Are Labour going to include foreign students in their quota i.e. do foreign private educated count against?
Because they are thick, and none of them have the least clue about how universities work, they probably haven't thought of this yet.
What may also not have occurred to them is the issue of foreign students in British private schools - which category do they come into?
And when Labour open the borders, what counts as a foreign student?
Authoritarian regimes have elections too. Just so you know.
So we'll have them if the other third rate mad Nazi apologist gets into power as well? (Asking for a friend.)
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Knowing you it's something to do with Labour, which is besides the point because I'm not advocating a Labour government. Apologies if I've misunderstood, but you weren't very clear.
Well won't be happy but yes. If Jo Swinson gets a majority to revoke then of course she can revoke if she wants...
But it does set the precedent for finally leaving the EU without a further referendum - as long as there is a majority in Westminster.
Of course. We have a democratic system where parliament is sovereign. Any given parliament can pass any law that it sees fit. If a majority of MPs vote for no deal then that is entirely legitimate. Mad, but legit. Others may think revoke is also mad, but again if passed by majority vote is legit.
What is really sad about this painful spectacle is the sight of people who know better making all sorts of absurd points which they know to be preposterous. The "will of the people" in 2016 does not overrule the will of the people in 2017 or 2019 or in any other future election. Thats not how it works.
Well said. Legitimate is another word that has been painfully abused in this whole process.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
No, it is a better way of resolving it (not least because while it has its own problems, unlike a GE it cannot be completely indecisive), not the only way. I truly despise the way people use the word mandate, and as in this case that is just how our system works. I think it would be politically silly and risky to take us out of the EU or revoke based on a FPTP majority on 35% of the vote, but that is all the mandate that our system has ever required. Heck, they don't even need the mandate of a referendum or a GE to revoke or no deal right now even if they'd said they would never do either, it's just stupid to do that.
Agreed. It would be politically silly to do either, and I still think a revoke under FPTP still leads to the equal and opposite reaction of a hard brexit at the subsequent GE.
But I suppose people are quite rightly looking at the 2016 referendum and going "well, that didn't solve anything" and making the assumption that - a not unreasonable one - that the reason it didn't solve anything is because this bunch of MPs refuse to pass anything. Hence the need for an election. A(nother) referendum solves nothing when this lot of MPs refuse to enact it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's even possible for a referendum to be legally binding as no parliament can bind its successor? So the decision must ultimately lie with our MPs.
I wonder whether the PM and A-G would agree with the following:-
"And you know, my friends, the most difficult thing is to explain what a rule of law is, as distinct from just an oppressive law. They say, well we've got a lot of regulations, the government makes them, the government dictates to us. That's not what a rule of law is, I say. It's having wise judges who decide fairly and whose decisions are taken and honoured. It's having your laws made in a parliament which is accountable to the people and which you know are going to be honourably administered. That's why we don't just call it law, we call it a rule of law. You cannot have freedom without a rule of law, and that is the most difficult thing, I think, to get into countries that have never known it."
Or this:-
The third guarantee of liberty is the rule of law. The idea that all are equal under the law is deeply rooted in our democratic systems and nowhere else..... The thought that no one in the state can escape the law is, after all, a daring one...... This is not a thought which the powerful can easily accept. Those who hold sway in totalitarian states take good care that the rule of law does not challenge their authority."
You realize all of the above applies, with some fierce poignancy, to the Establishment which now seeks to subvert the democratic brexit vote. Right?
The Establishment - whoever that is - are seeking to avoid a disorderly withdrawal from the EU. That incidentally is in line with the manifesto on which the government was elected. There are those who would prefer to remain in the EU and they are entitled to think that and campaign for it and vote for it and take the consequences at the next election. Losing a vote does not mean that you are no longer entitled to say what you think and act on it.
MPs want a different deal. They are being obstructed from that because the current government has no negotiating strategy and has prioritised a date over getting a deal. It has also done absolutely nothing about trying to get any sort of consensus about what such a deal might look like. It is now stuck. It doesn't like this. The fact that this is in large part a result of its own idiotic actions seems to have passed it by. And in consequence it is lashing out at anyone and everyone instead of growing up and taking responsibility.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Why ? Why should a General Election on the terms of this discredited government. First and foremost, the agenda of the majority in this Parliament must be implemented [ from what is already enacted ] and then a General election should be held. I am not sure that all 21 expelled Tory MPs plus the CHUKs or ex-CHUKs would necessarily agree. They may want a People's vote done first.
Then Parliament should replace the executive
We do not have government by a committee of the whole house
The FTPA is a corrosive piece of legislation
The government has no right to demand that events take place at its dictation. It made its bed and it is lying on it. It will have to wait until it suits others to dispose of it.
The issue is that Bercow has innovated and in so doing destroyed the balance between parliament and government.
Government should set the agenda and parliament approve or not.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Even if everyone voted solely on the Brexit issue (which they won't) how on earth does Johnson winning a majority on 35% of the vote provide a mandate for anything? A referendum is the only way to resolve this.
Nope. Bums on seats on HoC is what matters.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
By that logic the 2017 GE should be respected. The people elected a ‘remain’ parliament apparently. Nothing else matters.
Not really as both Con and Lab manifestos committed to leaving the EU.
Nice try though.
Sigh. I’m not the one calling this a ‘remain’ parliament. Those are the words of populist scum.
Labour did not commit to leave the EU, whatever it takes, by October 31st.
You seem oddly rattled?
I'm rattled. I'm rattled by the populist scum on this website cheering a PM who shut down parliament illegally. A profound danger to the rule of law and the democratic institutions of this country. Anyone who isn't rattled by this is sleepwalking into a repressive authoritarian disaster. Wake the fuck up.
This repressive authoritarian wants a GE now. Hardly in keeping with your description.
Don’t fall into the trap thinking that democracy prevents repression and authoritarianism.
Voting. Democracy is about MUCH more than just voting. Though, of course, voting is a necessary part.
Looking at the list of wars involving various parts of these islands, I see one called the Rough Wooing, which is probably much more well known to the Scots, and probably not as folksy as its name might suggest.
The gamesmanship comes from a fake government desperate to engineer an election on its terms to stay in an office it never earned. Rightly, its opponents are having none of it.
Yes the government have behaved disgracefully. I don't quite see, however, where having no functioning government for however long it takes for the opposition to be confident the tories would lose an election, is a good thing either.
They can remove Boris and not engineer an election on terms Boris wants. It's not either they leave him in place or they must play his game.
It won’t take very long before this wretched government can be scrunched up and discarded like a used tissue. Five weeks tops.
I’m just playing devils advocate but IF Johnson is returned with a majority and subsequently cancels or short circuits any extension granted you will be “happy” (Procedurally speaking) as he has a democratic mandate to do so?
Authoritarian regimes have elections too. Just so you know. So we'll have them if the other third rate mad Nazi apologist gets into power as well? (Asking for a friend.)
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Knowing you it's something to do with Labour, which is besides the point because I'm not advocating a Labour government. Apologies if I've misunderstood, but you weren't very clear.
No, it was to do with Labour. My point really is that both main parties are identical. Both racist, both breaking laws left right and centre, both with an utter contempt for democracy, both led by people who are apologists for totalitarian regimes.
Oh - and both useless.
Unless something dramatic happens we are right now facing authoritarian regimes run by gangsters whatever the result of the next election. But I was sarcastically welcoming the news that we will at least continue to have elections.
We need resolution. A General Election is the best chance of resolution.
There should have been a General Election prior to October 31st to (hopefully) give a mandate for some outcome.
It now looks like that is not going to be possible. (Which is retarded, and is entirely the fault of Lab/LD/SNP.)
I therefore now think we need to have the smallest possible extension (one month?) to allow a General Election to be called, because we need a government with a mandate, almost irrespective of what the mandate is.
Why ? Why should a General Election on the terms of this discredited government. First and foremost, the agenda of the majority in this Parliament must be implemented [ from what is already enacted ] and then a General election should be held. I am not sure that all 21 expelled Tory MPs plus the CHUKs or ex-CHUKs would necessarily agree. They may want a People's vote done first.
Then Parliament should replace the executive
We do not have government by a committee of the whole house
The FTPA is a corrosive piece of legislation
The government has no right to demand that events take place at its dictation. It made its bed and it is lying on it. It will have to wait until it suits others to dispose of it.
The issue is that Bercow has innovated and in so doing destroyed the balance between parliament and government.
Government should set the agenda and parliament approve or not.
Why? If the minority Government has a problem with this, it should form a coalition.
Comments
I am not sure Corbyn is terrified of extending. He can just say he is extending so he can have time to begin his "new negotiations".
I see ZERO advantage for Corbyn in allowing anyone to usurp his place. In fact, it is incredibly dangerous to allow a semi-competent rival from the Labour Party to be PM.
Corbyn will be sent for by HM. And I expect he will become PM. Who is going to stop him -- the mighty LibDems?
The Tories don't have to VNOC Corbyn immediately. Who knows, they might prefer an incompetent Corbyn to a competent PM ?
Yes, it’s very possible it doesn’t happen until Corbyn has tried first and failed.
I’m not sure what that means. If Boris resigns or loses a VoNC, does the Queen send for him by default? Or does she wait until the Commons have voted on a series of options of alternative administrations whilst Boris acts as caretaker first?
Crucial for betting purposes. If Corbyn is PM even for only a day, all our exciting bets lose.
If Boris gets a 30 seat majority on 35% of the vote we Brexit do or die.
How many people sit on the green leather benches is what counts. Nothing else matters.
I don't think that what she said was good anyway.
If she can get your 'great' when being as she is, then there's a lot of opportunity for Swinson.
I just don't even get his argument. If they'd ruled the other way that would have itself have had very serious political consequences.
The people elected a 'Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop' parliament
There's only one sensible person in here, and she's called CycleFree.
Nice try though.
What misery was that ?
It wasn't Boris who increased interest rates by 5% and pissed away billions in an attempt to keep sterling at the wrong exchange rate.
If you want to make comparisons then the bitter desire to blame others for his own mistakes which Major has wallowed in for 27 years seems to be a regular trait among Conservative politicians.
Labour did not commit to leave the EU, whatever it takes, by October 31st.
Before Lab goes for VONC, PM must have sent letter requesting extension AND the extension must have been granted by the EU.
Above suggests VONC can't be brought forward - ie even if Commons forces letter to be sent early, have to wait for EU agreement which presumably would only happen at EU Summit.
In 1988, he was fired from The Times over making up quotes by historian Colin Lucas.
In 2004, he was fired from the Tory Shadow Front Bench over lying about his affair with Petronella Wyatt (the "Pyramid of Piffle").
https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1176925067151904768?s=20
15% of 6th form students are in private schools.
But Lab policy is only 7% of University places can go to private pupils.
Result: Physically impossible for half of private school 6th formers to go to University (even if EVERY state school 6th former does go!)
A shame too, since even for this parliament they seem like they will just waste time yelling at each other for 3 weeks until next forced into action, and it'd be nice to short cut that.
Anyone who isn't rattled by this is sleepwalking into a repressive authoritarian disaster. Wake the fuck up.
If the only thing that counts is how many people sit on the green leather benches then why didn't the Brexiteers wait until they elected a Pro-Brexit Parliament?
Seems Brexiteers change the goal posts as they go to suit themselves. Same way that No Deal went from being "Project Fear" to being the only true Brexit.
They can remove Boris and not engineer an election on terms Boris wants. It's not either they leave him in place or they must play his game.
It's still a daft policy, for all sorts of reasons I have rehearsed at length. A non-political colleague this afternoon turned to me and said, 'That Corbyn, he's fucking mental, isn't he?'
Hard to argue, to be fair...
All successful programmes, projects, charities and businesses I’ve been involved with have been absolutely focussed on outcomes. It’s project management 101.
Yes, you do need to follow due process, in other words to be legally and regulatory compliant, but dozens of businesses become slaves to unnecessary process that they create themselves which leads them absolutely nowhere, and at great cost too.
The Perse for GCSEs, then Hills Rd Sixth Form College.
What may also not have occurred to them is the issue of foreign students in British private schools - which category do they come into?
Of course, Labour's policy is batshit crazy
What is really sad about this painful spectacle is the sight of people who know better making all sorts of absurd points which they know to be preposterous. The "will of the people" in 2016 does not overrule the will of the people in 2017 or 2019 or in any other future election. Thats not how it works.
They're like Boris Johnson only much stupider and greedier, and with much less interest in the welfare of ordinary people.
Except not really.
Any hit to his poll rating will be minor IMO.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Knowing you it's something to do with Labour, which is besides the point because I'm not advocating a Labour government. Apologies if I've misunderstood, but you weren't very clear.
https://twitter.com/stellacreasy/status/1176927379811393537?s=21
The most vociferous Labour voter I know in Cambridge send his kids to Eton (I know it sounds as though I made this up, but it is true!)
But I suppose people are quite rightly looking at the 2016 referendum and going "well, that didn't solve anything" and making the assumption that - a not unreasonable one - that the reason it didn't solve anything is because this bunch of MPs refuse to pass anything. Hence the need for an election. A(nother) referendum solves nothing when this lot of MPs refuse to enact it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's even possible for a referendum to be legally binding as no parliament can bind its successor? So the decision must ultimately lie with our MPs.
MPs want a different deal. They are being obstructed from that because the current government has no negotiating strategy and has prioritised a date over getting a deal. It has also done absolutely nothing about trying to get any sort of consensus about what such a deal might look like. It is now stuck. It doesn't like this. The fact that this is in large part a result of its own idiotic actions seems to have passed it by. And in consequence it is lashing out at anyone and everyone instead of growing up and taking responsibility.
Government should set the agenda and parliament approve or not.
Oh - and both useless.
Unless something dramatic happens we are right now facing authoritarian regimes run by gangsters whatever the result of the next election. But I was sarcastically welcoming the news that we will at least continue to have elections.