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  • JameiJamei Posts: 50
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
    If we do remain in the E.U., would Labour’s proposed policy even be legal ?
    No idea. Bits of it, perhaps. Next question is which sections will get as far as the manifesto. The policy (at least at a broadbrush level) seems to me to be socially desirable but electorally stupid, as it will repel voters with a vested interest but not attract any new ones (unless, given Cameron's, Boris's and Jacob Rees-Mogg's alma mater, there is a recently-founded Conservative Campaign for the Abolition of Eton).
    Certainly removing charitable status wouldn't be a problem.

    But outlawing private education entirely, and expropriating assets ?
    Removing charitable status certainly would be a problem as it would reduce the number of scholarships and bursaries and shared facilities private schools can provide and make them even more unequal so if you are going to attack private schools you may as well go the whole hog for full abolition as Corbyn Labour have now done.

    Like most Tories I of course support private schools with charitable status
    I think the private schools thing might be a vote loser for Labour. It is emblematic of the economic wrong-headedness of their policies. Private Schools banned - 600000 extra pupils need Places in state system - catchment area problems worsened. If anyone wanted an examplar they couldn’t get much better. Even my wife who is generally left of centre was shaking her head this morning

    Likely to be a further shift from Labour to LD agreed
    Certainly it will see the LibDems retake Cambridge from Labour.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Noo said:

    Roger said:

    How do you declare a slapper in the register of members interests?
    Isn't Boris the slapper?
    I think there's another word for him. It's slightly worse
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    edited September 2019

    Scott_P said:
    Point and laugh at the Labour Party.
    The most astonishing thing i have come across is the Mainstream polling of labour members by Yougov which found only 10% happy to sing the national anthem, - that is amazing.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Sandpit said:

    nico67 said:

    Isn’t it great that the EU brought in legislation to protect package holidays !

    Let’s hope the government continues this when we head for the Sunny Uplands!

    ATOL long predates the EU regulation. It’s been running since 1973.
    https://www.caa.co.uk/ATOL-protection/Consumers/About-ATOL/

    Don’t be ridiculous. Obviously we couldn’t organise or do anything before the EU started looking after us. It’s a well known fact.
  • Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The collapse in German manufacturing has now become frighteningly steep:

    https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/1f489cd97178420799000583692a1886

    if that keeps rolling, Germany and by extension the Euro is in trouble. Germany needs to do something to get domestic demand rolling, so far Merkel has avoided addressing the issue. Three of Germany;s top 5 export markets are giving it a problem US, China ( trade war slunp ) and UK ( Brexit uncertainty ), not much on the horizon atm to counteract that.
    The switch to electric vehicles is also going to hit their manufacturing sector hard - particularly the components industry.
    Well would you want to be a manufacturer of exhaust systems or fuel tanks knowing your product is dead in about 10-15 years ?

    The other surprising thing I heard on R4 was that all car manufacturers are going to cease producing very small cars such as Peugeot 107 or VW Up as they reckon they will only be able to make money on them (when changed to battery) by charging a price that makes them unaffordable,

    That seems mad as they are generally quite fuel efficient and dont do great mileage as their buyers use them for local trips in the main.
    To this is the most interesting electric car right now. Take a small light car with performance no better than it needs be (although it will need to be boosted for Europe relative to this model) and supply it with a very modest battery. The battery is where the cost is and prices are coming down. A side benefit of a highly efficient car in charge/km of range terms is that the car is quick to recharge.

    https://twitter.com/renaultukpr/status/1046819170749468672
    And how much does it cost ?

    Alanbrooke is, for now, quite right.
    Small EVs are simply too expensive for the great majority of their target market.
    "The China-only Renault K-ZE has the potential to be the Dacia of the electric age, offering a 150-mile range for less than £13,000"
    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/zoe/106673/new-renault-k-ze-2019-review
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    edited September 2019

    Scott_P said:
    Genius - not covering all the bases with two Brexit positions clearly
    Plus things will no doubt change later in week.

    They are at least consistent in their inconsistency
  • You'd need a ridiculously comprehensive (ie expensive) public transport policy to have one that would be useable for me and many millions like me.

    Providing mobility for people to get where they like, whenever they like, without hindrance, is ridiculously expensive whichever way you cook it. The Kingskerwell bypass (which I think is in your neck of the woods?) cost £130m. For three miles. That was funded by, yes, the Government.

    (Curiously DfT no longer publishes cost/benefit ratios for schemes like this that it funds - a decision that has been attacked by those rabid environmentalists at the, er, RAC.)
  • For villages of perhaps 1000-4000 size might employing a handful drivers and pool cars for on demand local taxi journeys be a far more effective public subsidy than more buses?

    Could also possibly be done on a co-operative basis without govt funding.

    Yeah, very plausibly. There are some interesting experiments in that area. Autonomous vehicles start to make things really interesting because you can basically run Travelling Salesman Problem-type optimisation to cover the greatest number of journeys with the minimum number of vehicles and miles. (Disclaimer: this is part of what I do for a living.)

    Thinking of "buses" as necessarily big things with a Stagecoach logo on the front, diesel fumes belching out the back, and running to an inflexible timetable is the wrong approach. The key bit is that they're communal, shared public transport: the rest is implementation detail.

    The 'government' should fund good public transport links ?

    In reality that means taxpayers should fund good public transport links.

    Which taxpayers ?

    And however good public transport links are they will never have the travel flexibility which a car provides in most cases.

    Government (DfT) pays to build roads, often way beyond provable CBR. Government (DfT) subsidises trains. Government (local authorities from TfL downwards) subsidises buses. It's not a new idea. I could throw in HS2 or the Oxford-Cambridge Expressway here but you get the gist.

    And yes, cars do provide travel flexibility, but with significant externalities. It's well documented that - thanks to the perenially cancelled fuel duty escalator - private motoring has become cheaper while public transport has become more expensive. "Despite regular warnings by car lobbyists of a ‘war on the motorist’, between 1980 and 2014 the cost of motoring fell by 14 per cent – but in the same period, bus fares increased by 58 per cent. Rail travel has also become dramatically more expensive, with comparable ticket prices rising 63 per cent." (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/driving-a-car-is-getting-cheaper-and-cheaper-while-trains-and-buses-just-keep-getting-more-expensive-10363354.html)

    If we make motoring cheaper and buses/trains more expensive, we'll encourage more of those externalities. Given this whole climate thing, that's not a good look right now.
    Cars also provide lots of tax income for governments.

    And there is a trade off between the advantages and disadvantages of car ownership but for most people public transport is never going to give the travel flexibility a car provides.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited September 2019
    deleted
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Mr. Jezziah, interesting you cite Saudi Arabia's involvement in the proxy war in Yemen (and entirely legitimately so), yet somehow forget Iran's involvement there.

    The whole reason there’s a civil war going on in Yemen, is that Qatar and Iran are funding and equipping insurgents who are trying to overthrow the government there.

    Behind that, it’s an old fashioned Sunni vs Shia conflict, which have been going on for literally centuries.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:
    Nope.

    ATOL, travel insurance companies and credit card companies are paying to repatriate 180,000.

    Government is underwriting this effort and will end up paying for the few uninsured travellers, £10m tops.
    You get the ATOL certificate when you book with Thomas Cook, just checked from my 2014 trip to Turkey with them. Sad they've gone under.

    On topic - Warren looks strong but it's an error to write the old men off yet, particularly Biden. He has a good deal of strength in the south and if he's off the pace after Iowa and New Hampshire should bounce back in the South Carolina primary.
    The polling from NH and Iowa can be chosen to be good for ANY of the big three though the particularly white nature of the electorate suits Warren well (Compared to Biden).

    Nate Silver has

    Biden
    Warren

    As his 1a, 1b, with Sanders 2a and 2b {Harris and Buttigieg} in the tier below.

    I think that is absolubtely correct.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    How do you declare a slapper in the register of members interests?
    How incredibly offensive.
    To who?
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    glw said:

    It all makes sense now. All those teen eco Nazis are raging because tomorrow no longer belongs to them.

    https://twitter.com/DineshDSouza/status/1175848457191510016?s=20

    When you invoke the Nazis you've lost the debate.
    She's a girl who is concerned about a threat to the world and has done what she can about it.
    Why is it a Left vs Right thing to look after our home planet?
    Because there are big profits to be made with short term thinking, also if you over the age of 50 and living in the West you are probably going to avoid the worst of the consequences.

    Profit and rubbing all the millenials faces in the mess leftover, how could the likes of Trump, Bolsonaro and Boris resist?

    I'm no Boris fan but I don't think you can say he's a climate change denialist like Trump. There was a huge new offshore wind farm deal announced just this Friday, at the lowest ever strike price too. The UK is actually doing very well at adopting renewable energy. There is widespread and cross-party support for renewable energy in the UK, and little opposition. We really shouldn't try to make this into a left versus right issue here.
    I noticed that the strike price for some of the new windfarms is less than half the guaranteed price for Hinckley Point C. What a disaster that is looking to be.
    George Osborne's vanity project.
    Mrs May’s deal. Unfortunately this one didn’t need the approval of the HoC. She was just awful in every way. The cost of that deal will make high energy manufacturing in this country comparatively uncompetitive for decades.
    She rubber stamped Osborne's deal.

    She shouldn't have done it but there's no denying its Osborne's vanity project.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The collapse in German manufacturing has now become frighteningly steep:

    https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/1f489cd97178420799000583692a1886

    if that keeps rolling, Germany and by extension the Euro is in trouble. Germany needs to do something to get domestic demand rolling, so far Merkel has avoided addressing the issue. Three of Germany;s top 5 export markets are giving it a problem US, China ( trade war slunp ) and UK ( Brexit uncertainty ), not much on the horizon atm to counteract that.
    The switch to electric vehicles is also going to hit their manufacturing sector hard - particularly the components industry.
    Well would you want to be a manufacturer of exhaust systems or fuel tanks knowing your product is dead in about 10-15 years ?

    The other surprising thing I heard on R4 was that all car manufacturers are going to cease producing very small cars such as Peugeot 107 or VW Up as they reckon they will only be able to make money on them (when changed to battery) by charging a price that makes them unaffordable,

    That seems mad as they are generally quite fuel efficient and dont do great mileage as their buyers use them for local trips in the main.
    To this is the most interesting electric car right now. Take a small light car with performance no better than it needs be (although it will need to be boosted for Europe relative to this model) and supply it with a very modest battery. The battery is where the cost is and prices are coming down. A side benefit of a highly efficient car in charge/km of range terms is that the car is quick to recharge.

    https://twitter.com/renaultukpr/status/1046819170749468672
    And how much does it cost ?

    Alanbrooke is, for now, quite right.
    Small EVs are simply too expensive for the great majority of their target market.
    IIRC there's a premium of about £5000 for the electric model. However I suspect the combination of falling battery prices, the fact the car is simpler and cheaper to manufacture apart from the battery, lower energy and maintenance costs and differential government taxes and policies will see the equivalent ICE model overtake this car on TCO within a few years.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    @AndyJS

    Not you, Andy. I mean 'Tobes'.

    Honestly, how old is he?
  • Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The collapse in German manufacturing has now become frighteningly steep:

    https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/1f489cd97178420799000583692a1886

    if that keeps rolling, Germany and by extension the Euro is in trouble. Germany needs to do something to get domestic demand rolling, so far Merkel has avoided addressing the issue. Three of Germany;s top 5 export markets are giving it a problem US, China ( trade war slunp ) and UK ( Brexit uncertainty ), not much on the horizon atm to counteract that.
    The switch to electric vehicles is also going to hit their manufacturing sector hard - particularly the components industry.
    Well would you want to be a manufacturer of exhaust systems or fuel tanks knowing your product is dead in about 10-15 years ?

    The other surprising thing I heard on R4 was that all car manufacturers are going to cease producing very small cars such as Peugeot 107 or VW Up as they reckon they will only be able to make money on them (when changed to battery) by charging a price that makes them unaffordable,

    That seems mad as they are generally quite fuel efficient and dont do great mileage as their buyers use them for local trips in the main.
    To this is the most interesting electric car right now. Take a small light car with performance no better than it needs be (although it will need to be boosted for Europe relative to this model) and supply it with a very modest battery. The battery is where the cost is and prices are coming down. A side benefit of a highly efficient car in charge/km of range terms is that the car is quick to recharge.

    https://twitter.com/renaultukpr/status/1046819170749468672
    And how much does it cost ?

    Alanbrooke is, for now, quite right.
    Small EVs are simply too expensive for the great majority of their target market.
    "The China-only Renault K-ZE has the potential to be the Dacia of the electric age, offering a 150-mile range for less than £13,000"
    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/zoe/106673/new-renault-k-ze-2019-review
    "Volkswagen e-Up review
    From £24,625" https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/volkswagen/e-up

    https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/electric-vehicle-battery-cost-dropped-80-6-years-227kwh-tesla-190kwh/
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    Floater said:
    This was implied in Toby's tweet earlier

    Scott_P said:
    Point and laugh at the Labour Party.
    The most astonishing thing i have come across is the Mainstream polling of labour members by Yougov which found only 10% happy to sing the national anthem, - that is amazing.
    It fits though.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861

    It all makes sense now. All those teen eco Nazis are raging because tomorrow no longer belongs to them.

    https://twitter.com/DineshDSouza/status/1175848457191510016?s=20

    When you invoke the Nazis you've lost the debate.
    She's a girl who is concerned about a threat to the world and has done what she can about it.
    Why is it a Left vs Right thing to look after our home planet?

    It all makes sense now. All those teen eco Nazis are raging because tomorrow no longer belongs to them.

    https://twitter.com/DineshDSouza/status/1175848457191510016?s=20

    When you invoke the Nazis you've lost the debate.
    She's a girl who is concerned about a threat to the world and has done what she can about it.
    Why is it a Left vs Right thing to look after our home planet?
    I don’t want to invoke the Nazis but the media has form on this. Most obviously to me was when the girls from Soham were abducted and all over the papers I lived in Bradford when an Asian girl of the same age went missing, and there was barely any coverage. Probably worth mentioning Madeleine McCann too. If you are cherubic girl you are more likely to drive newspaper sales rather than an ethnic minority. Do we really think a young Nigerian girl would have been able to get a movement started?
    Yes.

    It is worth noting that GT did not start in the UK. She started in Sweden and her message rapidly spread to Scandinavia and on from there. Fridays for Future came to Germany before it hit the UK, and within weeks she had become global, but I'm guessing she is still much more popular in the"Western World" than in e.g. Thailand.

    Your african equivalent would be to start in Nigeria move to Ghana and on to the whole of West Africa, then to all Africa. Once Nigerian Greta Thunberg had become popular throughout Africa then the rest of the world would definately be taking an interest.

    Finally, I do think it is quite patronising to claim that she has become so popular because of her looks, rather than through how she has publicised here mesage.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    TBH Boris views can be hard to pin down, many of his followers, which can dictate the way he goes are crazy climate types. The American right also funds and supports lots of right wing stuff over here which again has a big overlap with the Boris gang.

    The Conservatives have been a bit better than the Republicans previously, Boris is the Britain Trump though.

    Conservatives have been in power since 2010 and wind power capacity and generation has gone up nearly 10 fold over that time, and the goverment is signing deals for ever larger wind farms. The rhetoric might be skeptical but the reality is that the UK is rapidly adopting renewable energy.

    Besides which we are getting close to the point where almost all Tories will become big fans of renewable energy as it becomes the cheaper option, and a good financial investment.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    How do you declare a slapper in the register of members interests?
    How incredibly offensive.
    To who?
    Whom.
  • Mr. B, not just that, electric cars need the infrastructure for recharging and improved range to be useful outside of cities.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    kinabalu said:
    When someone like Young can easily point out your hypocrisy in a tweet then you are in a bad way.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    edited September 2019

    And there is a trade off between the advantages and disadvantages of car ownership but for most people public transport is never going to give the travel flexibility a car provides.

    We'll see. Autonomous vehicles plus intelligent route optimisation will arguably provide a better experience than car ownership, because you get the personal benefits of a car (there when you want it, takes you where you want to go) without the hassle of car ownership (annual costs, maintenance, finding somewhere to park, not necessarily the right shape for what you want to transport, etc.).

    In 30 years I think it's entirely possible that car ownership will be restricted to petrolheads and the most isolated communities. Once autonomous vehicles are commonplace, why would you need to own a car and worry about maintenance and battery replacement every few years, when you could just summon an autonomous vehicle to your doorstep? And if you get a cut-price rate for sharing that autonomous vehicle with another passenger who's going the same way... so much the better.

    It's not a coincidence that services companies like Google and Uber, rather than hardware companies, are those making the biggest bet on autonomous vehicles.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Mr. B, not just that, electric cars need the infrastructure for recharging and improved range to be useful outside of cities.

    Ye, sure.

    I think my next car will be ICE but the one after that will be Electric. The issue for many millions right now (Incl myself) is that there is not a decent second hand market in electric vehicles right now.

    The existing petrol/diesel network looks an obvious place to build in charging points, probably with an extension of coffee shop franchises as it takes longer to "fuel" a vehicle.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    eristdoof said:

    It all makes sense now. All those teen eco Nazis are raging because tomorrow no longer belongs to them.

    https://twitter.com/DineshDSouza/status/1175848457191510016?s=20

    When you invoke the Nazis you've lost the debate.
    She's a girl who is concerned about a threat to the world and has done what she can about it.
    Why is it a Left vs Right thing to look after our home planet?

    It all makes sense now. All those teen eco Nazis are raging because tomorrow no longer belongs to them.

    https://twitter.com/DineshDSouza/status/1175848457191510016?s=20

    When you invoke the Nazis you've lost the debate.
    She's a girl who is concerned about a threat to the world and has done what she can about it.
    Why is it a Left vs Right thing to look after our home planet?
    I don’t want to invoke the Nazis but the media has form on this. Most obviously to me was when the girls from Soham were abducted and all over the papers I lived in Bradford when an Asian girl of the same age went missing, and there was barely any coverage. Probably worth mentioning Madeleine McCann too. If you are cherubic girl you are more likely to drive newspaper sales rather than an ethnic minority. Do we really think a young Nigerian girl would have been able to get a movement started?
    Yes.

    It is worth noting that GT did not start in the UK. She started in Sweden and her message rapidly spread to Scandinavia and on from there. Fridays for Future came to Germany before it hit the UK, and within weeks she had become global, but I'm guessing she is still much more popular in the"Western World" than in e.g. Thailand.

    Your african equivalent would be to start in Nigeria move to Ghana and on to the whole of West Africa, then to all Africa. Once Nigerian Greta Thunberg had become popular throughout Africa then the rest of the world would definately be taking an interest.

    Finally, I do think it is quite patronising to claim that she has become so popular because of her looks, rather than through how she has publicised here mesage.
    I am not sure I have explained myself properly, I was saying her cherubic looks allowed her popularity, rather then was the reason for it which is obviously due to what she has done.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Scott_P said:
    Point and laugh at the Labour Party.
    The most astonishing thing i have come across is the Mainstream polling of labour members by Yougov which found only 10% happy to sing the national anthem, - that is amazing.
    Why amazing ?i don’t support labour and am very uncomfortable singing it. It’s not about a country or it’s people it’s about a hereditary monarch. The other four verses are quite enlightening as well. The only time it sounds anywhere near uplifting is when it is fully orchestrated but that doesn’t change the words. As an aside England shouldn’t use it as their anthem at sports events either as it implies England are the nation state.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    And there is a trade off between the advantages and disadvantages of car ownership but for most people public transport is never going to give the travel flexibility a car provides.

    We'll see. Autonomous vehicles plus intelligent route optimisation will arguably provide a better experience than car ownership, because you get the personal benefits of a car (there when you want it, takes you where you want to go) without the hassle of car ownership (annual costs, maintenance, finding somewhere to park, not necessarily the right shape for what you want to transport, etc.).

    In 30 years I think it's entirely possible that car ownership will be restricted to petrolheads and the most isolated communities. Once autonomous vehicles are commonplace, why would you need to own a car and worry about maintenance and battery replacement every few years, when you could just summon an autonomous vehicle to your doorstep? And if you get a cut-price rate for sharing that autonomous vehicle with another passenger who's going the same way... so much the better.

    It's not a coincidence that services companies like Google and Uber, rather than hardware companies, are those making the biggest bet on autonomous vehicles.
    When we’re all driving electric cars, what will the government do about the £28bn it currently receives annually in fuel duty, and the £6.5bn it receives in VED?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Tew Nhread
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    When someone like Young can easily point out your hypocrisy in a tweet then you are in a bad way.

    'Hypocrisy' is being widely misused on this subject.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The collapse in German manufacturing has now become frighteningly steep:

    https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/1f489cd97178420799000583692a1886

    if that keeps rolling, Germany and by extension the Euro is in trouble. Germany needs to do something to get domestic demand rolling, so far Merkel has avoided addressing the issue. Three of Germany;s top 5 export markets are giving it a problem US, China ( trade war slunp ) and UK ( Brexit uncertainty ), not much on the horizon atm to counteract that.
    The switch to electric vehicles is also going to hit their manufacturing sector hard - particularly the components industry.
    Well would you want to be a manufacturer of exhaust systems or fuel tanks knowing your product is dead in about 10-15 years ?

    The other surprising thing I heard on R4 was that all car manufacturers are going to cease producing very small cars such as Peugeot 107 or VW Up as they reckon they will only be able to make money on them (when changed to battery) by charging a price that makes them unaffordable,

    That seems mad as they are generally quite fuel efficient and dont do great mileage as their buyers use them for local trips in the main.
    To this is the most interesting electric car right now. Take a small light car with performance no better than it needs be (although it will need to be boosted for Europe relative to this model) and supply it with a very modest battery. The battery is where the cost is and prices are coming down. A side benefit of a highly efficient car in charge/km of range terms is that the car is quick to recharge.
    https://twitter.com/renaultukpr/status/1046819170749468672
    I got an email with my Taycan delivery slot: May 2020!

    I wish I could afford to keep it but I have to flip...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    nichomar said:

    Scott_P said:
    Point and laugh at the Labour Party.
    The most astonishing thing i have come across is the Mainstream polling of labour members by Yougov which found only 10% happy to sing the national anthem, - that is amazing.
    Why amazing ?i don’t support labour and am very uncomfortable singing it. It’s not about a country or it’s people it’s about a hereditary monarch.
    Exactly. I wouldn't sing it at gunpoint.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. B, not just that, electric cars need the infrastructure for recharging and improved range to be useful outside of cities.

    Ye, sure.

    I think my next car will be ICE but the one after that will be Electric. The issue for many millions right now (Incl myself) is that there is not a decent second hand market in electric vehicles right now.

    The existing petrol/diesel network looks an obvious place to build in charging points, probably with an extension of coffee shop franchises as it takes longer to "fuel" a vehicle.
    If the technology is feasible the move directly to autonomous cars would be better. It would not need expensive charging points built at every home with the problems that would lead to for on street parking. Houses would no longer require garages. Travel costs would come down as if you were able to travel more cheaply at night without the problems that tiredness and driving in the dark. Mobility issues would be improved as specialist vehicles and associated costs could be shared across multiple people including options for chaperones etc. Commuting problems would ease as autonomous cars could drive more efficiently and cooperatively, and finally no more phoning taxi company for them to tell you they are just around the corner,
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The collapse in German manufacturing has now become frighteningly steep:

    https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/1f489cd97178420799000583692a1886

    if that keeps rolling, Germany and by extension the Euro is in trouble. Germany needs to do something to get domestic demand rolling, so far Merkel has avoided addressing the issue. Three of Germany;s top 5 export markets are giving it a problem US, China ( trade war slunp ) and UK ( Brexit uncertainty ), not much on the horizon atm to counteract that.
    The switch to electric vehicles is also going to hit their manufacturing sector hard - particularly the components industry.
    Well would you want to be a manufacturer of exhaust systems or fuel tanks knowing your product is dead in about 10-15 years ?

    The other surprising thing I heard on R4 was that all car manufacturers are going to cease producing very small cars such as Peugeot 107 or VW Up as they reckon they will only be able to make money on them (when changed to battery) by charging a price that makes them unaffordable,

    That seems mad as they are generally quite fuel efficient and dont do great mileage as their buyers use them for local trips in the main.
    To this is the most interesting electric car right now. Take a small light car with performance no better than it needs be (although it will need to be boosted for Europe relative to this model) and supply it with a very modest battery. The battery is where the cost is and prices are coming down. A side benefit of a highly efficient car in charge/km of range terms is that the car is quick to recharge.

    https://twitter.com/renaultukpr/status/1046819170749468672
    And how much does it cost ?

    Alanbrooke is, for now, quite right.
    Small EVs are simply too expensive for the great majority of their target market.
    "The China-only Renault K-ZE has the potential to be the Dacia of the electric age, offering a 150-mile range for less than £13,000"
    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/zoe/106673/new-renault-k-ze-2019-review
    That would happily do us as a second car (which only ever does a commute, 40 mile round trip and smaller local trips). If it was on sale in UK at that price I'd take a serious look - factoring in fuel costs/car tax etc the TCO over a few years it could be very competitive.

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting to chereograph the Labour conference.

    'OK, comrades, now the important thing is to screw up epically right from the start. So let's have a blazing row over the deputy leader's position, try to abolish it and look like utter dingbats.'

    'Sounds good comrade. And then of course the Dear Leader can go on about his Brexit policy.'

    'He doesn't have one, does he?'

    'No, but if he says he does and waffles a bit, people will believe him.'

    'Good plan, good plan. Then he can send Dawn Butler on the radio and have her shout and scream and generally behave like an unhinged obsesssive. That's going to get us lots of votes in the marginals.'

    'Yes, and the perfect backdrop for Andrew Fisher to quit because we've become too extreme. Then we can do all that rubbish about private schools.'

    'Yeah, good stuff, wish they'd close mine. Have you got that bit where Macdonnell says our plans are illegal in?'

    'Noted. Now on the final day. How about putting forward lots of motions on leaving the EU and losing them all?'

    'Great. Showing we're on the side of the masses.'

    'Awesome! Let's go get those Tory bastards in the Labour Party!'

    "What Do We Want?"

    "Maybe Brexit Maybe Revoke"

    "When Do We Want It?"

    "Now!"



    To be fair to Corbyn his 'plan' isn't too dissimilar to Wilson's and that worked out very well.
    Wilson was in government.
    Not before the February 1974 election when the Referendum pledge was given.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting to chereograph the Labour conference.

    'OK, comrades, now the important thing is to screw up epically right from the start. So let's have a blazing row over the deputy leader's position, try to abolish it and look like utter dingbats.'

    'Sounds good comrade. And then of course the Dear Leader can go on about his Brexit policy.'

    'He doesn't have one, does he?'

    'No, but if he says he does and waffles a bit, people will believe him.'

    'Good plan, good plan. Then he can send Dawn Butler on the radio and have her shout and scream and generally behave like an unhinged obsesssive. That's going to get us lots of votes in the marginals.'

    'Yes, and the perfect backdrop for Andrew Fisher to quit because we've become too extreme. Then we can do all that rubbish about private schools.'

    'Yeah, good stuff, wish they'd close mine. Have you got that bit where Macdonnell says our plans are illegal in?'

    'Noted. Now on the final day. How about putting forward lots of motions on leaving the EU and losing them all?'

    'Great. Showing we're on the side of the masses.'

    'Awesome! Let's go get those Tory bastards in the Labour Party!'

    "What Do We Want?"

    "Maybe Brexit Maybe Revoke"

    "When Do We Want It?"

    "Now!"



    To be fair to Corbyn his 'plan' isn't too dissimilar to Wilson's and that worked out very well.
    The crucial difference was that Wison made his own view clear that we should join. This is the decision of our time and I think we are entitled to expect our leaders to lead. He doesn't have to be Napoleon. Just an opinion would do.
    Wilson did not agree to remaining 'in advance of better terms being negotiated'.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    edited September 2019
    Dura_Ace said:

    nichomar said:

    Scott_P said:
    Point and laugh at the Labour Party.
    The most astonishing thing i have come across is the Mainstream polling of labour members by Yougov which found only 10% happy to sing the national anthem, - that is amazing.
    Why amazing ?i don’t support labour and am very uncomfortable singing it. It’s not about a country or it’s people it’s about a hereditary monarch.
    Exactly. I wouldn't sing it at gunpoint.
    Surely you have done. Effectively.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The collapse in German manufacturing has now become frighteningly steep:

    https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/1f489cd97178420799000583692a1886

    if that keeps rolling, Germany and by extension the Euro is in trouble. Germany needs to do something to get domestic demand rolling, so far Merkel has avoided addressing the issue. Three of Germany;s top 5 export markets are giving it a problem US, China ( trade war slunp ) and UK ( Brexit uncertainty ), not much on the horizon atm to counteract that.
    The switch to electric vehicles is also going to hit their manufacturing sector hard - particularly the components industry.
    The other surprising thing I heard on R4 was that all car manufacturers are going to cease producing very small cars such as Peugeot 107 or VW Up as they reckon they will only be able to make money on them (when changed to battery) by charging a price that makes them unaffordable,

    That seems mad as they are generally quite fuel efficient and dont do great mileage as their buyers use them for local trips in the main.
    To this is the most interesting electric car right now. Take a small light car with performance no better than it needs be (although it will need to be boosted for Europe relative to this model) and supply it with a very modest battery. The battery is where the cost is and prices are coming down. A side benefit of a highly efficient car in charge/km of range terms is that the car is quick to recharge.

    https://twitter.com/renaultukpr/status/1046819170749468672
    And how much does it cost ?

    Alanbrooke is, for now, quite right.
    Small EVs are simply too expensive for the great majority of their target market.
    "The China-only Renault K-ZE has the potential to be the Dacia of the electric age, offering a 150-mile range for less than £13,000"
    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/zoe/106673/new-renault-k-ze-2019-review
    That would happily do us as a second car (which only ever does a commute, 40 mile round trip and smaller local trips). If it was on sale in UK at that price I'd take a serious look - factoring in fuel costs/car tax etc the TCO over a few years it could be very competitive.

    I replaced our Skoda last year, and when doing so asked about electric etc. Told 2020, probably/almost certainly. Agent didn't know about prices, but that was Nov. 2018.

    150 miles round trip does me 95+% unless we're talking about visiting bro-in-law; would have to have a probably fairly lengthy coffee stop. On the other hand, of course.........
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    Labour's policy is the correct approach - unfortunately it isn't sellable to a world where everyone is leave or remain....

    Yes. Good policy but tough to sell. The polarization is tedious but it's real.

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1175718130766831616
    He speaks sense.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    McDonnell promises a 32 hour week, an abolition of zero hours contracts and workers' rights starting immediately for all workers under a Labour government in his speech to the Labour conference
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    McDonnell earlier said the Government should have bailed out Thomas Cook
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Scott_P said:
    Still does not match the LDs revoke policy though
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Dura_Ace said:

    nichomar said:

    Scott_P said:
    Point and laugh at the Labour Party.
    The most astonishing thing i have come across is the Mainstream polling of labour members by Yougov which found only 10% happy to sing the national anthem, - that is amazing.
    Why amazing ?i don’t support labour and am very uncomfortable singing it. It’s not about a country or it’s people it’s about a hereditary monarch.
    Exactly. I wouldn't sing it at gunpoint.
    Anyone who sings god save the queen and means it is mentally ill.
  • And there is a trade off between the advantages and disadvantages of car ownership but for most people public transport is never going to give the travel flexibility a car provides.

    We'll see. Autonomous vehicles plus intelligent route optimisation will arguably provide a better experience than car ownership, because you get the personal benefits of a car (there when you want it, takes you where you want to go) without the hassle of car ownership (annual costs, maintenance, finding somewhere to park, not necessarily the right shape for what you want to transport, etc.).

    In 30 years I think it's entirely possible that car ownership will be restricted to petrolheads and the most isolated communities. Once autonomous vehicles are commonplace, why would you need to own a car and worry about maintenance and battery replacement every few years, when you could just summon an autonomous vehicle to your doorstep? And if you get a cut-price rate for sharing that autonomous vehicle with another passenger who's going the same way... so much the better.

    It's not a coincidence that services companies like Google and Uber, rather than hardware companies, are those making the biggest bet on autonomous vehicles.
    Certainly in 30 years years that might be the situation and in many ways I hope it is.

    But it isn't now nor is it yet on the timescale politicians or the average person consider when making their decisions.
This discussion has been closed.