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  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting to chereograph the Labour conference.

    'OK, comrades, now the important thing is to screw up epically right from the start. So let's have a blazing row over the deputy leader's position, try to abolish it and look like utter dingbats.'

    'Sounds good comrade. And then of course the Dear Leader can go on about his Brexit policy.'

    'He doesn't have one, does he?'

    'No, but if he says he does and waffles a bit, people will believe him.'

    'Good plan, good plan. Then he can send Dawn Butler on the radio and have her shout and scream and generally behave like an unhinged obsesssive. That's going to get us lots of votes in the marginals.'

    'Yes, and the perfect backdrop for Andrew Fisher to quit because we've become too extreme. Then we can do all that rubbish about private schools.'

    'Yeah, good stuff, wish they'd close mine. Have you got that bit where Macdonnell says our plans are illegal in?'

    'Noted. Now on the final day. How about putting forward lots of motions on leaving the EU and losing them all?'

    'Great. Showing we're on the side of the masses.'

    'Awesome! Let's go get those Tory bastards in the Labour Party!'

    "What Do We Want?"

    "Maybe Brexit Maybe Revoke"

    "When Do We Want It?"

    "Now!"



    To be fair to Corbyn his 'plan' isn't too dissimilar to Wilson's and that worked out very well.
    Wilson was in government.
    I don't think we are going to implement it whilst in opposition....
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited September 2019
    Good to see the BBC storming it at the Emmy awards. British TV rules despite Brexit.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Foxy said:

    Labour, SNP and LibDem spin teams will be looking to tear that apart. Less taking back control and more handing it straight over to Washington (DC, not Tyne and Wear). Taking American rules, submitting to secret American courts, goodbye NHS and hello chlorinated chicken.
    A rushed deal is almost certainly a bad deal, though Trump may be looking for a way out of his trade wars.
    Trump will be looking to give American farmers, hurt by the China trade war, unfettered access to Britain. Goodbye standards; goodbye British agriculture.
    Goodbye any sort of agreement with the EU. Goodbye the ability of the NHS to buy cheaper generic drugs or for NICE to look at the cost effectiveness of new treatments. The US pharmaceutical industry will be delighted at the extra £350 million a week.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    eek said:

    When would be a good time to mention that Condor (Thomas Cook's German airline) is operating as usual....

    They’re a separate, German, company flying German aircraft.

    I don’t proclaim to be an expert on German insolvency law, but it appears the winding down of operations works differently over there. When AirBerlin went bust a few years ago, their planes continued to fly for a few days propped up by the German government.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting to chereograph the Labour conference.

    'OK, comrades, now the important thing is to screw up epically right from the start. So let's have a blazing row over the deputy leader's position, try to abolish it and look like utter dingbats.'

    'Sounds good comrade. And then of course the Dear Leader can go on about his Brexit policy.'

    'He doesn't have one, does he?'

    'No, but if he says he does and waffles a bit, people will believe him.'

    'Good plan, good plan. Then he can send Dawn Butler on the radio and have her shout and scream and generally behave like an unhinged obsesssive. That's going to get us lots of votes in the marginals.'

    'Yes, and the perfect backdrop for Andrew Fisher to quit because we've become too extreme. Then we can do all that rubbish about private schools.'

    'Yeah, good stuff, wish they'd close mine. Have you got that bit where Macdonnell says our plans are illegal in?'

    'Noted. Now on the final day. How about putting forward lots of motions on leaving the EU and losing them all?'

    'Great. Showing we're on the side of the masses.'

    'Awesome! Let's go get those Tory bastards in the Labour Party!'

    "What Do We Want?"

    "Maybe Brexit Maybe Revoke"

    "When Do We Want It?"

    "Now!"


    To be fair to Corbyn his 'plan' isn't too dissimilar to Wilson's and that worked out very well.
    Wilson was in government.
    I don't think we are going to implement it whilst in opposition....
    I don’t think you’re going to implement it, then.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited September 2019
    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    RBS and other banks are £675m in the hole with TC, I doubt the tour operator has a fraction of that amount in assets - most of the aircraft will be leased or mortgaged.

    Definitely a few bankers not getting bonuses this year.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Oh well better late than never

    EU car companies warn of an economic earthquake if there isnt a Brexit deal

    https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/brexit-europaeische-autohersteller-schlagen-alarm-16398602.html
  • Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    Historically, Thomas Cook is a very big thing - the original company almost single-handedly created the package holiday and travel for the masses.

    A reason to lament its passing, but probably not to save it.
  • Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    It safe to say that talk about a US trade deal is a) deflection from the disaster that is Brexit and b) electioneering..

    Actual track record after three years is a couple of partially rolled over existing arrangements. We have IIRC about seven hundred other existing arrangements that haven't been rolled over.

    Talk is cheap.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Cyclefree said:

    Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.

    Journalists going to holiday destinations, to cover a story. I think the answer might be deeply buried in there somewhere.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    edited September 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Labour, SNP and LibDem spin teams will be looking to tear that apart. Less taking back control and more handing it straight over to Washington (DC, not Tyne and Wear). Taking American rules, submitting to secret American courts, goodbye NHS and hello chlorinated chicken.
    A rushed deal is almost certainly a bad deal, though Trump may be looking for a way out of his trade wars.
    Trump will be looking to give American farmers, hurt by the China trade war, unfettered access to Britain. Goodbye standards; goodbye British agriculture.
    Goodbye any sort of agreement with the EU. Goodbye the ability of the NHS to buy cheaper generic drugs or for NICE to look at the cost effectiveness of new treatments. The US pharmaceutical industry will be delighted at the extra £350 million a week.
    The details in the link posted earlier bear reading:
    https://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/2019/03/05/the-us-negotiating-objectives-for-the-uk-us-trade-deal-clearly-put-america-first/

    How anyone (in the UK) could be arguing in favour of this, irrespective of their Brexit stance, beggars belief.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
    If we do remain in the E.U., would Labour’s proposed policy even be legal ?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    When a big high st name goes tits up its big news. This one has an extra emotional dimension, because people wait all year for their big annual holiday /honeymoon that gets screwed up. It's big story.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    Historically, Thomas Cook is a very big thing - the original company almost single-handedly created the package holiday and travel for the masses.

    A reason to lament its passing, but probably not to save it.
    As I said, it is the Woolies of package holidays.
  • Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
    If we do remain in the E.U., would Labour’s proposed policy even be legal ?
    Almost certainly
  • Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
    If we do remain in the E.U., would Labour’s proposed policy even be legal ?
    Almost certainly
    Sorry, almost certainly NOT
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting to chereograph the Labour conference.

    'OK, comrades, now the important thing is to screw up epically right from the start. So let's have a blazing row over the deputy leader's position, try to abolish it and look like utter dingbats.'

    'Sounds good comrade. And then of course the Dear Leader can go on about his Brexit policy.'

    'He doesn't have one, does he?'

    'No, but if he says he does and waffles a bit, people will believe him.'

    'Good plan, good plan. Then he can send Dawn Butler on the radio and have her shout and scream and generally behave like an unhinged obsesssive. That's going to get us lots of votes in the marginals.'

    'Yes, and the perfect backdrop for Andrew Fisher to quit because we've become too extreme. Then we can do all that rubbish about private schools.'

    'Yeah, good stuff, wish they'd close mine. Have you got that bit where Macdonnell says our plans are illegal in?'

    'Noted. Now on the final day. How about putting forward lots of motions on leaving the EU and losing them all?'

    'Great. Showing we're on the side of the masses.'

    'Awesome! Let's go get those Tory bastards in the Labour Party!'

    "What Do We Want?"

    "Maybe Brexit Maybe Revoke"

    "When Do We Want It?"

    "Now!"


    To be fair to Corbyn his 'plan' isn't too dissimilar to Wilson's and that worked out very well.
    Wilson was in government.
    I don't think we are going to implement it whilst in opposition....
    I don’t think you’re going to implement it, then.
    I don't think anyone can say for sure what would happen in an upcoming election but we might or we might not.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Why rush through the signing of a trade deal with the US by July, when it couldn’t be implemented before the end of the transition period* anyway?

    *UK Govt policy, still, I think?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    edited September 2019

    Is there a betting market up yet for 'When will the next prorogation end?'
    Any layers for August 2020 ?

    There was a great article in the Economist this week about how the single market has worked well for goods and badly for services. This has hampered European businesses and especially service businesses. The main trouble with a large FTA with USA is geography. The UK would face the Scottish problem of being a long way from the main market place. Risk that UK businesses and institutions get subsumed by US ones. Like the NHS. We don’t have enough large goods suppliers to take advantage of deal and our service businesses too small mostly.
    Is the Single Market actually detrimental to services trade, according to the article, or just not as beneficial as for goods? If the former, in what way does the SM hurt services trade?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Labour, SNP and LibDem spin teams will be looking to tear that apart. Less taking back control and more handing it straight over to Washington (DC, not Tyne and Wear). Taking American rules, submitting to secret American courts, goodbye NHS and hello chlorinated chicken.
    A rushed deal is almost certainly a bad deal, though Trump may be looking for a way out of his trade wars.
    Trump will be looking to give American farmers, hurt by the China trade war, unfettered access to Britain. Goodbye standards; goodbye British agriculture.
    Goodbye any sort of agreement with the EU. Goodbye the ability of the NHS to buy cheaper generic drugs or for NICE to look at the cost effectiveness of new treatments. The US pharmaceutical industry will be delighted at the extra £350 million a week.
    The details in the link posted earlier bear reading:
    https://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/2019/03/05/the-us-negotiating-objectives-for-the-uk-us-trade-deal-clearly-put-america-first/

    How anyone (in the UK) could be arguing in favour of this, irrespective of their Brexit stance, beggars belief.
    I quite agree. But the lack of knowledge about the EU amongst some arch-Brexiteers is usually coupled with a ludicrously rose-tinted view of the US and Britain’s relationship with it and a gross misreading of Britain’s history (all the “Britain alone” nonsense when the truth was very different).

    The colossal ignorance of some of the products of a few of our public schools is probably the best argument against them. Whatever they’re good at, teaching history and the ability to analyse facts are not amongst them, at least based on the evidence of our political class.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited September 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    To be fair it is the largest peacetime evacuation in British history. Thankfully it’s not during school holidays, so most affected will be adults rather than kids. If all goes to plan, the only thing most will notice is a slightly retimed return flight.

    As for the journalists, I’m sure they all queued up early to head off for a fortnight in Ibiza or Majorca this morning, beats Brighton or Manchester interviewing politicians for the next two weeks. ;)
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting to chereograph the Labour conference.

    'OK, comrades, now the important thing is to screw up epically right from the start. So let's have a blazing row over the deputy leader's position, try to abolish it and look like utter dingbats.'

    'Sounds good comrade. And then of course the Dear Leader can go on about his Brexit policy.'

    'He doesn't have one, does he?'

    'No, but if he says he does and waffles a bit, people will believe him.'

    'Good plan, good plan. Then he can send Dawn Butler on the radio and have her shout and scream and generally behave like an unhinged obsesssive. That's going to get us lots of votes in the marginals.'

    'Yes, and the perfect backdrop for Andrew Fisher to quit because we've become too extreme. Then we can do all that rubbish about private schools.'

    'Yeah, good stuff, wish they'd close mine. Have you got that bit where Macdonnell says our plans are illegal in?'

    'Noted. Now on the final day. How about putting forward lots of motions on leaving the EU and losing them all?'

    'Great. Showing we're on the side of the masses.'

    'Awesome! Let's go get those Tory bastards in the Labour Party!'

    "What Do We Want?"

    "Maybe Brexit Maybe Revoke"

    "When Do We Want It?"

    "Now!"



    To be fair to Corbyn his 'plan' isn't too dissimilar to Wilson's and that worked out very well.
    Wilson was in government.
    I don't think we are going to implement it whilst in opposition....
    Better chance in Opposition I would say
  • Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Labour, SNP and LibDem spin teams will be looking to tear that apart. Less taking back control and more handing it straight over to Washington (DC, not Tyne and Wear). Taking American rules, submitting to secret American courts, goodbye NHS and hello chlorinated chicken.
    A rushed deal is almost certainly a bad deal, though Trump may be looking for a way out of his trade wars.
    Trump will be looking to give American farmers, hurt by the China trade war, unfettered access to Britain. Goodbye standards; goodbye British agriculture.
    Goodbye any sort of agreement with the EU. Goodbye the ability of the NHS to buy cheaper generic drugs or for NICE to look at the cost effectiveness of new treatments. The US pharmaceutical industry will be delighted at the extra £350 million a week.
    The details in the link posted earlier bear reading:
    https://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/2019/03/05/the-us-negotiating-objectives-for-the-uk-us-trade-deal-clearly-put-america-first/

    How anyone (in the UK) could be arguing in favour of this, irrespective of their Brexit stance, beggars belief.
    Many Brexiteers would rather suck up to Americans and be rogered senseless by any US President than be equal partners with Frenchmen and Germans. It is all part of their sad crazy WW2 obsession.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    When a big high st name goes tits up its big news. This one has an extra emotional dimension, because people wait all year for their big annual holiday /honeymoon that gets screwed up. It's big story.
    I don’t feel sorry for people who have an annual honeymoon, I must say.

    :)
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited September 2019
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
    If we do remain in the E.U., would Labour’s proposed policy even be legal ?
    No idea. Bits of it, perhaps. Next question is which sections will get as far as the manifesto. The policy (at least at a broadbrush level) seems to me to be socially desirable but electorally stupid, as it will repel voters with a vested interest but not attract any new ones (unless, given Cameron's, Boris's and Jacob Rees-Mogg's alma mater, there is a recently-founded Conservative Campaign for the Abolition of Eton).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting to chereograph the Labour conference.

    'OK, comrades, now the important thing is to screw up epically right from the start. So let's have a blazing row over the deputy leader's position, try to abolish it and look like utter dingbats.'

    'Sounds good comrade. And then of course the Dear Leader can go on about his Brexit policy.'

    'He doesn't have one, does he?'

    'No, but if he says he does and waffles a bit, people will believe him.'

    'Good plan, good plan. Then he can send Dawn Butler on the radio and have her shout and scream and generally behave like an unhinged obsesssive. That's going to get us lots of votes in the marginals.'

    'Yes, and the perfect backdrop for Andrew Fisher to quit because we've become too extreme. Then we can do all that rubbish about private schools.'

    'Yeah, good stuff, wish they'd close mine. Have you got that bit where Macdonnell says our plans are illegal in?'

    'Noted. Now on the final day. How about putting forward lots of motions on leaving the EU and losing them all?'

    'Great. Showing we're on the side of the masses.'

    'Awesome! Let's go get those Tory bastards in the Labour Party!'

    "What Do We Want?"

    "Maybe Brexit Maybe Revoke"

    "When Do We Want It?"

    "Now!"



    To be fair to Corbyn his 'plan' isn't too dissimilar to Wilson's and that worked out very well.
    The crucial difference was that Wison made his own view clear that we should join. This is the decision of our time and I think we are entitled to expect our leaders to lead. He doesn't have to be Napoleon. Just an opinion would do.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    To be fair it is the largest peacetime evacuation in British history. Thankfully it’s not during school holidays, so most affected will be adults rather than kids. If all goes to plan, the only thing most will notice is a slightly retimed return flight.

    As for the journalists, I’m sure they all queued up early to head off for a fortnight in Ibiza or Majorca this morning, beats Brighton or Manchester interviewing politicians for the next two weeks.
    “Peacetime evacuation” - for heaven’s sake! It’s telling people in peaceful countries via a website to get on a bus and go to the airport. Just as they would do anyway, but on a different day. Honestly, the hyperbole is ridiculous.
  • Oh well better late than never

    EU car companies warn of an economic earthquake if there isnt a Brexit deal

    https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/brexit-europaeische-autohersteller-schlagen-alarm-16398602.html

    Oh no, you are not still hoping the "they need us more than we need them" might still have any credence? It will damage parts of the EU economy, without a doubt, but it will not be a reason for them to allow erosion of the single market. The single market (a largely Thatcherite/British invention) is far too precious. Sadly 52% of our population are too thick too or too gullible to understand the benefits it brings our economy
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting to chereograph the Labour conference.

    'OK, comrades, now the important thing is to screw up epically right from the start. So let's have a blazing row over the deputy leader's position, try to abolish it and look like utter dingbats.'

    'Sounds good comrade. And then of course the Dear Leader can go on about his Brexit policy.'

    'He doesn't have one, does he?'

    'No, but if he says he does and waffles a bit, people will believe him.'

    'Good plan, good plan. Then he can send Dawn Butler on the radio and have her shout and scream and generally behave like an unhinged obsesssive. That's going to get us lots of votes in the marginals.'

    'Yes, and the perfect backdrop for Andrew Fisher to quit because we've become too extreme. Then we can do all that rubbish about private schools.'

    'Yeah, good stuff, wish they'd close mine. Have you got that bit where Macdonnell says our plans are illegal in?'

    'Noted. Now on the final day. How about putting forward lots of motions on leaving the EU and losing them all?'

    'Great. Showing we're on the side of the masses.'

    'Awesome! Let's go get those Tory bastards in the Labour Party!'

    "What Do We Want?"

    "Maybe Brexit Maybe Revoke"

    "When Do We Want It?"

    "Now!"



    To be fair to Corbyn his 'plan' isn't too dissimilar to Wilson's and that worked out very well.
    The crucial difference was that Wison made his own view clear that we should join. This is the decision of our time and I think we are entitled to expect our leaders to lead. He doesn't have to be Napoleon. Just an opinion would do.
    Remain I think you meant?
  • Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    To be fair it is the largest peacetime evacuation in British history. Thankfully it’s not during school holidays, so most affected will be adults rather than kids. If all goes to plan, the only thing most will notice is a slightly retimed return flight.

    As for the journalists, I’m sure they all queued up early to head off for a fortnight in Ibiza or Majorca this morning, beats Brighton or Manchester interviewing politicians for the next two weeks.
    “Peacetime evacuation” - for heaven’s sake! It’s telling people in peaceful countries via a website to get on a bus and go to the airport. Just as they would do anyway, but on a different day. Honestly, the hyperbole is ridiculous.
    I am sure "Sandpit" doesn't indulge in hyperbole does he? lol. He is a Brexiteer. Brexiteers love a wartime hyperbolic reference at any possible juncture. They cannot resist it!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Oh well better late than never

    EU car companies warn of an economic earthquake if there isnt a Brexit deal

    https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/brexit-europaeische-autohersteller-schlagen-alarm-16398602.html

    Oh no, you are not still hoping the "they need us more than we need them" might still have any credence? It will damage parts of the EU economy, without a doubt, but it will not be a reason for them to allow erosion of the single market. The single market (a largely Thatcherite/British invention) is far too precious. Sadly 52% of our population are too thick too or too gullible to understand the benefits it brings our economy
    I was posting the clip for its irony value. Still it gave you an early morning rant so provided some amusement nonetheless.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited September 2019
    alex. said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting to chereograph the Labour conference.

    'OK, comrades, now the important thing is to screw up epically right from the start. So let's have a blazing row over the deputy leader's position, try to abolish it and look like utter dingbats.'

    'Sounds good comrade. And then of course the Dear Leader can go on about his Brexit policy.'

    'He doesn't have one, does he?'

    'No, but if he says he does and waffles a bit, people will believe him.'

    'Good plan, good plan. Then he can send Dawn Butler on the radio and have her shout and scream and generally behave like an unhinged obsesssive. That's going to get us lots of votes in the marginals.'

    'Yes, and the perfect backdrop for Andrew Fisher to quit because we've become too extreme. Then we can do all that rubbish about private schools.'

    'Yeah, good stuff, wish they'd close mine. Have you got that bit where Macdonnell says our plans are illegal in?'

    'Noted. Now on the final day. How about putting forward lots of motions on leaving the EU and losing them all?'

    'Great. Showing we're on the side of the masses.'

    'Awesome! Let's go get those Tory bastards in the Labour Party!'

    "What Do We Want?"

    "Maybe Brexit Maybe Revoke"

    "When Do We Want It?"

    "Now!"



    To be fair to Corbyn his 'plan' isn't too dissimilar to Wilson's and that worked out very well.
    Wilson was in government.
    I don't think we are going to implement it whilst in opposition....
    Better chance in Opposition I would say
    TBH I was referring to whole thing, so a Labour Brexit deal which gets put to a referendum. I don't see the Conservatives voting for a referendum anytime soon but certainly not with a Labour Brexit deal vs remain one.

    Just a 2nd ref it isn't completely outside the bounds of possibility that an election returns a hung parliament which the Conservatives just about hold onto power and call a 2nd ref just to get Brexit done one way or the other, that seems very unlikely to me though.
  • The single market (a largely Thatcherite/British invention) is far too precious. Sadly 52% of our population are too thick too or too gullible to understand the benefits it brings our economy

    It is possible that at least some of the 52% understood the economic advantages but chose to prioritise other considerations. Rich people voting for higher tax rates are capable of voting against their personal economic interests, why not Leave voters?

    See this excellent article by Gary Younge, for example.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/01/poorer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    edited September 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    To be fair it is the largest peacetime evacuation in British history. Thankfully it’s not during school holidays, so most affected will be adults rather than kids. If all goes to plan, the only thing most will notice is a slightly retimed return flight.

    As for the journalists, I’m sure they all queued up early to head off for a fortnight in Ibiza or Majorca this morning, beats Brighton or Manchester interviewing politicians for the next two weeks.
    “Peacetime evacuation” - for heaven’s sake! It’s telling people in peaceful countries via a website to get on a bus and go to the airport. Just as they would do anyway, but on a different day. Honestly, the hyperbole is ridiculous.
    On the contrary, it's intended to reassure those who might otherwise think they or their families might have been stranded, and it's therefore not entirely ridiculous.

    And of course by talking up the difficulty of the operation, it would tend to absolve those in charge of blame for any particular problems, and earn them credit should it all go smoothly.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Oh well better late than never

    EU car companies warn of an economic earthquake if there isnt a Brexit deal

    https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/brexit-europaeische-autohersteller-schlagen-alarm-16398602.html

    Oh no, you are not still hoping the "they need us more than we need them" might still have any credence? It will damage parts of the EU economy, without a doubt, but it will not be a reason for them to allow erosion of the single market. The single market (a largely Thatcherite/British invention) is far too precious. Sadly 52% of our population are too thick too or too gullible to understand the benefits it brings our economy
    There you go again, winning over the voters by telling a majority of them how thick they are, how gullible they are......

    I bet you were a demon on the doorsteps. Did your local association have a whip-round for a leaving present when you departed in a huff?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    To be fair it is the largest peacetime evacuation in British history. Thankfully it’s not during school holidays, so most affected will be adults rather than kids. If all goes to plan, the only thing most will notice is a slightly retimed return flight.

    As for the journalists, I’m sure they all queued up early to head off for a fortnight in Ibiza or Majorca this morning, beats Brighton or Manchester interviewing politicians for the next two weeks.
    “Peacetime evacuation” - for heaven’s sake! It’s telling people in peaceful countries via a website to get on a bus and go to the airport. Just as they would do anyway, but on a different day. Honestly, the hyperbole is ridiculous.
    Yes, some of the language is a little hyperbolic, but there’s been a massive effort behind the scenes to plan for it.

    IMO it actually bodes well for how we might deal with another possible disruption in a few weeks’ time - behind the scenes, away from shouting and scheming politicians and journalists, this sort of disaster recovery planning is something that government is actually very good at.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    When a big high st name goes tits up its big news. This one has an extra emotional dimension, because people wait all year for their big annual holiday /honeymoon that gets screwed up. It's big story.
    The first high profile casulty of Brexit.



  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    To be fair it is the largest peacetime evacuation in British history. Thankfully it’s not during school holidays, so most affected will be adults rather than kids. If all goes to plan, the only thing most will notice is a slightly retimed return flight.

    As for the journalists, I’m sure they all queued up early to head off for a fortnight in Ibiza or Majorca this morning, beats Brighton or Manchester interviewing politicians for the next two weeks.
    “Peacetime evacuation” - for heaven’s sake! It’s telling people in peaceful countries via a website to get on a bus and go to the airport. Just as they would do anyway, but on a different day. Honestly, the hyperbole is ridiculous.
    I am sure "Sandpit" doesn't indulge in hyperbole does he? lol. He is a Brexiteer. Brexiteers love a wartime hyperbolic reference at any possible juncture. They cannot resist it!
    Really? I’m not the one calling people thick and gullible on this very thread, just because we may have political differences of opinion.
  • The single market (a largely Thatcherite/British invention) is far too precious. Sadly 52% of our population are too thick too or too gullible to understand the benefits it brings our economy

    It is possible that at least some of the 52% understood the economic advantages but chose to prioritise other considerations. Rich people voting for higher tax rates are capable of voting against their personal economic interests, why not Leave voters?

    See this excellent article by Gary Younge, for example.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/01/poorer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers
    I was being slightly tongue in cheek. It would be interesting to know what percentage of the population, and in particular what percentage of leave voters, even knew what the single market is at the time of the referendum, and erhaps even knew such a thing existed. I think many of the votes were more likely based on myths about immigration, the accession of Turkey and the regulations relating to bananas
  • Oh well better late than never

    EU car companies warn of an economic earthquake if there isnt a Brexit deal

    https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/brexit-europaeische-autohersteller-schlagen-alarm-16398602.html

    Oh no, you are not still hoping the "they need us more than we need them" might still have any credence? It will damage parts of the EU economy, without a doubt, but it will not be a reason for them to allow erosion of the single market. The single market (a largely Thatcherite/British invention) is far too precious. Sadly 52% of our population are too thick too or too gullible to understand the benefits it brings our economy
    I was posting the clip for its irony value. Still it gave you an early morning rant so provided some amusement nonetheless.
    Thank you. I noticed you used some punctuation on that post. Have you been on a course?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
    If we do remain in the E.U., would Labour’s proposed policy even be legal ?
    No idea. Bits of it, perhaps. Next question is which sections will get as far as the manifesto. The policy (at least at a broadbrush level) seems to me to be socially desirable but electorally stupid, as it will repel voters with a vested interest but not attract any new ones (unless, given Cameron's, Boris's and Jacob Rees-Mogg's alma mater, there is a recently-founded Conservative Campaign for the Abolition of Eton).
    Certainly removing charitable status wouldn't be a problem.

    But outlawing private education entirely, and expropriating assets ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    When a big high st name goes tits up its big news. This one has an extra emotional dimension, because people wait all year for their big annual holiday /honeymoon that gets screwed up. It's big story.
    The first high profile casulty of Brexit.



    Second maybe. After Labour as a viable political party.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Scott_P said:
    Oh come on, the company appears to have been in very serious trouble for quite some time.
  • Isn't Labour's position more a reflection of the mentality that 'this worked in 2017, so, yeah, safe to assume it will work again'
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
    If we do remain in the E.U., would Labour’s proposed policy even be legal ?
    No idea. Bits of it, perhaps. Next question is which sections will get as far as the manifesto. The policy (at least at a broadbrush level) seems to me to be socially desirable but electorally stupid, as it will repel voters with a vested interest but not attract any new ones (unless, given Cameron's, Boris's and Jacob Rees-Mogg's alma mater, there is a recently-founded Conservative Campaign for the Abolition of Eton).
    Certainly removing charitable status wouldn't be a problem.

    But outlawing private education entirely, and expropriating assets ?
    Perhaps expropriating assets is included in Theresa May's Henry VIII powers :smiley:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2019
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
    If we do remain in the E.U., would Labour’s proposed policy even be legal ?
    No idea. Bits of it, perhaps. Next question is which sections will get as far as the manifesto. The policy (at least at a broadbrush level) seems to me to be socially desirable but electorally stupid, as it will repel voters with a vested interest but not attract any new ones (unless, given Cameron's, Boris's and Jacob Rees-Mogg's alma mater, there is a recently-founded Conservative Campaign for the Abolition of Eton).
    Certainly removing charitable status wouldn't be a problem.

    But outlawing private education entirely, and expropriating assets ?
    Removing charitable status certainly would be a problem as it would reduce the number of scholarships and bursaries and shared facilities private schools can provide and make them even more unequal so if you are going to attack private schools you may as well go the whole hog for full abolition as Corbyn Labour have now done.

    Like most Tories I of course support private schools with charitable status
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
    If we do remain in the E.U., would Labour’s proposed policy even be legal ?
    No idea. Bits of it, perhaps. Next question is which sections will get as far as the manifesto. The policy (at least at a broadbrush level) seems to me to be socially desirable but electorally stupid, as it will repel voters with a vested interest but not attract any new ones (unless, given Cameron's, Boris's and Jacob Rees-Mogg's alma mater, there is a recently-founded Conservative Campaign for the Abolition of Eton).
    Certainly removing charitable status wouldn't be a problem
    We discussed this last night. “Certainly” is a bold claim...

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    alex. said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
    If we do remain in the E.U., would Labour’s proposed policy even be legal ?
    No idea. Bits of it, perhaps. Next question is which sections will get as far as the manifesto. The policy (at least at a broadbrush level) seems to me to be socially desirable but electorally stupid, as it will repel voters with a vested interest but not attract any new ones (unless, given Cameron's, Boris's and Jacob Rees-Mogg's alma mater, there is a recently-founded Conservative Campaign for the Abolition of Eton).
    Certainly removing charitable status wouldn't be a problem
    We discussed this last night. “Certainly” is a bold claim...

    From the POV of EU law.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Oh well better late than never

    EU car companies warn of an economic earthquake if there isnt a Brexit deal

    https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/brexit-europaeische-autohersteller-schlagen-alarm-16398602.html

    Oh no, you are not still hoping the "they need us more than we need them" might still have any credence? It will damage parts of the EU economy, without a doubt, but it will not be a reason for them to allow erosion of the single market. The single market (a largely Thatcherite/British invention) is far too precious. Sadly 52% of our population are too thick too or too gullible to understand the benefits it brings our economy
    I was posting the clip for its irony value. Still it gave you an early morning rant so provided some amusement nonetheless.
    Thank you. I noticed you used some punctuation on that post. Have you been on a course?
    dont be ridicu;ous, I view punctuation as an optional extra, it unsettles the anally retentive
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    The single market (a largely Thatcherite/British invention) is far too precious. Sadly 52% of our population are too thick too or too gullible to understand the benefits it brings our economy

    It is possible that at least some of the 52% understood the economic advantages but chose to prioritise other considerations. Rich people voting for higher tax rates are capable of voting against their personal economic interests, why not Leave voters?

    See this excellent article by Gary Younge, for example.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/01/poorer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers
    I was being slightly tongue in cheek. It would be interesting to know what percentage of the population, and in particular what percentage of leave voters, even knew what the single market is at the time of the referendum, and erhaps even knew such a thing existed. I think many of the votes were more likely based on myths about immigration, the accession of Turkey and the regulations relating to bananas
    The fact that the EU has far outgrown the single concept of a “single market” which the UK originally voted to join (and how it was sold and referred to )is probably the biggest reason why we voted to leave. Especially amongst the older generation who voted the first time. So it is known about.

    We all love to throw mud. It’s fun. But goes no where.

    What is much more fun is thinking about solutions. What is your solution to bring our country back together? Giving each side something what they want in that old concept of compromise?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited September 2019

    Isn't Labour's position more a reflection of the mentality that 'this worked in 2017, so, yeah, safe to assume it will work again'

    Probably more that Labour faces a moving target that is out of its control. If only the government would hold constant for longer than a week at a time, the Opposition might know what to oppose.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    kle4 said:

    Oh come on, the company appears to have been in very serious trouble for quite some time.

    Thomas Cook nearly collapsed 8 years ago. The company has been borrowing to keep in business for a long time now. When you read up on all the operations, business deals, and its finances it is amazing it has made it this far.
  • F1: amused that the odds on Hamilton are still 1 (for the title) but the theoretical profit from a £100 bet has risen from 50p before the last race to 67p for it now.

    The title is slipping away :p
  • Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    When a big high st name goes tits up its big news. This one has an extra emotional dimension, because people wait all year for their big annual holiday /honeymoon that gets screwed up. It's big story.
    The first high profile casulty of Brexit.



    Perhaps you could explain your reasoning behind that claim.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Nigelb said:

    alex. said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Grammar schools? How infra dig. Seamus Milne and James Schneider are proud Wykehamists. Or possibly ashamed Wykehamists. Anyway, they went to Wykeham Wycombe Winchester, not some lousy grammar where even poor children could get in. As did Buffy-creator Joss Whedon while his mother taught there on an exchange scheme.
    If we do remain in the E.U., would Labour’s proposed policy even be legal ?
    No idea. Bits of it, perhaps. Next question is which sections will get as far as the manifesto. The policy (at least at a broadbrush level) seems to me to be socially desirable but electorally stupid, as it will repel voters with a vested interest but not attract any new ones (unless, given Cameron's, Boris's and Jacob Rees-Mogg's alma mater, there is a recently-founded Conservative Campaign for the Abolition of Eton).
    Certainly removing charitable status wouldn't be a problem
    We discussed this last night. “Certainly” is a bold claim...

    From the POV of EU law.
    Fair enough
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    Oh come on, the company appears to have been in very serious trouble for quite some time.

    Thomas Cook nearly collapsed 8 years ago. The company has been borrowing to keep in business for a long time now. When you read up on all the operations, business deals, and its finances it is amazing it has made it this far.
    I’m interested to ask. If you’d looked up Thomas Cook on one of those business credit check services a month ago, what would it have said?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    Oh come on, the company appears to have been in very serious trouble for quite some time.

    Thomas Cook nearly collapsed 8 years ago. The company has been borrowing to keep in business for a long time now. When you read up on all the operations, business deals, and its finances it is amazing it has made it this far.
    Plus the hot summer last year hit its profits as there were more staycations as did instability in Turkey etc
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547

    Oh well better late than never

    EU car companies warn of an economic earthquake if there isnt a Brexit deal

    https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/brexit-europaeische-autohersteller-schlagen-alarm-16398602.html

    Brexit is bad for European car manufacturing and especially bad for UK manufacturing. We all knew that, didn't we?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Gabs2 said:

    Remain won't win the referendum with the Opposition Party neutral. We need the Lib Dems to replace them.

    The voters are long past caring what the parties recommend.
    Some of us are long past caring full stop.
  • Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    When a big high st name goes tits up its big news. This one has an extra emotional dimension, because people wait all year for their big annual holiday /honeymoon that gets screwed up. It's big story.
    The first high profile casulty of Brexit.



    Perhaps you could explain your reasoning behind that claim.
    The pounds fall in value since the referendum must have given them problems.#https://www.finder.com/uk/brexit-pound
  • glw said:

    kle4 said:

    Oh come on, the company appears to have been in very serious trouble for quite some time.

    Thomas Cook nearly collapsed 8 years ago. The company has been borrowing to keep in business for a long time now. When you read up on all the operations, business deals, and its finances it is amazing it has made it this far.
    Indeed.

    A look at the accounts shows that it should have been shut down years ago:

    https://www.thomascookgroup.com/investors/insight_external_assest/Thomas_Cook_AR_2018_web.pdf

    But its always in the interests of the directors to keep it going to the bitter end.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    FF43 said:

    Oh well better late than never

    EU car companies warn of an economic earthquake if there isnt a Brexit deal

    https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/brexit-europaeische-autohersteller-schlagen-alarm-16398602.html

    Brexit is bad for European car manufacturing and especially bad for UK manufacturing. We all knew that, didn't we?
    Apparently the EU commission doesnt
  • The collapse in German manufacturing has now become frighteningly steep:

    https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/1f489cd97178420799000583692a1886
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    EU getting nervous that Erdogan will open his borders and let immigrants in to Europe in large numbers. Erdogan demanding lots more money to pay for hosting displaced people.

    https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/international/migration-pakt-zwischen-eu-und-tuerkei-auf-der-kippe-in-der-aegaeis-droht-ein-neues-fluechtlingschaos/25037310.html
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    ydoethur said:

    This is where Labour have got to:
    http://www.twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1175354362346033157
    Has Jo Swinson struck a deal with Satan or something? Because if so she's still swindled him.

    Satan still has "ah've allus vorted Labour me" working for him
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited September 2019
    alex. said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting to chereograph the Labour conference.

    'OK, comrades, now the important thing is to screw up epically right from the start. So let's have a blazing row over the deputy leader's position, try to abolish it and look like utter dingbats.'

    'Sounds good comrade. And then of course the Dear Leader can go on about his Brexit policy.'

    'He doesn't have one, does he?'

    'No, but if he says he does and waffles a bit, people will believe him.'

    'Good plan, good plan. Then he can send Dawn Butler on the radio and have her shout and scream and generally behave like an unhinged obsesssive. That's going to get us lots of votes in the marginals.'

    'Yes, and the perfect backdrop for Andrew Fisher to quit because we've become too extreme. Then we can do all that rubbish about private schools.'

    'Yeah, good stuff, wish they'd close mine. Have you got that bit where Macdonnell says our plans are illegal in?'

    'Noted. Now on the final day. How about putting forward lots of motions on leaving the EU and losing them all?'

    'Great. Showing we're on the side of the masses.'

    'Awesome! Let's go get those Tory bastards in the Labour Party!'

    "What Do We Want?"

    "Maybe Brexit Maybe Revoke"

    "When Do We Want It?"

    "Now!"



    To be fair to Corbyn his 'plan' isn't too dissimilar to Wilson's and that worked out very well.
    The crucial difference was that Wison made his own view clear that we should join. This is the decision of our time and I think we are entitled to expect our leaders to lead. He doesn't have to be Napoleon. Just an opinion would do.
    Remain I think you meant?
    Thank you

    (just experimenting with bold)
  • Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    When a big high st name goes tits up its big news. This one has an extra emotional dimension, because people wait all year for their big annual holiday /honeymoon that gets screwed up. It's big story.
    The first high profile casulty of Brexit.



    Perhaps you could explain your reasoning behind that claim.
    The pounds fall in value since the referendum must have given them problems.#https://www.finder.com/uk/brexit-pound
    Yet its not stopped British people spending record amounts on overseas travel:

    2015 £39bn
    2018 £45bn

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/leisureandtourism/timeseries/gmbb/ott
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    edited September 2019

    The collapse in German manufacturing has now become frighteningly steep:

    https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/1f489cd97178420799000583692a1886

    if that keeps rolling, Germany and by extension the Euro is in trouble. Germany needs to do something to get domestic demand rolling, so far Merkel has avoided addressing the issue. Three of Germany;s top 5 export markets are giving it a problem US, China ( trade war slunp ) and UK ( Brexit uncertainty ), not much on the horizon atm to counteract that.
  • dodrade said:

    Won't it be easy for Trump to portray Warren as Hillary Mk 2?

    The main line of attack on Hillary was cronyism and entitlement, I don't think it works against Warren at all.
    Don't forget the Satanic paedo pizza parlours! Pretty sure Warren should be able to rebuff that kind of thing as well.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Trump praises Indian PM Modi as they both attend a rally in Houston

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49788492
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh come on, the company appears to have been in very serious trouble for quite some time.
    It was bailed out by banks back in 2011. The root causes are structural, people prefer to make their own holiday now rather than buy package tours. Blame the LoCos and internet travel sites.

    Sadly, I think we have to be prepared for every high-profile business failure to have people blaming it on Brexit.
  • According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    When a big high st name goes tits up its big news. This one has an extra emotional dimension, because people wait all year for their big annual holiday /honeymoon that gets screwed up. It's big story.
    The first high profile casulty of Brexit.



    Second maybe. After Labour as a viable political party.....
    You missed 2 Prime Ministers the speaker parliament our entire political system and very soon the judiciary.....

    The Bullingdon boy's a legend!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    The collapse in German manufacturing has now become frighteningly steep:

    https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/1f489cd97178420799000583692a1886

    if that keeps rolling, Germany and by extension the Euro is in trouble. Germany needs to do something to get domestic demand rolling, so far Merkel has avoided addressing the issue. Three of Germany;s top 5 export markets are giving it a problem US, China ( trade war slunp ) and UK ( Brexit uncertainty ), not much on the horizon atm to counteract that.
    The switch to electric vehicles is also going to hit their manufacturing sector hard - particularly the components industry.
  • Young Labour delegates are in for a shock today, having joined a party that promised power to the membership they're about to fall prey to the McCluskey block vote. McCluskey gave us Ed Miliband over David Miliband, McCluskey backed Corbyn, McCluskey backs Brexit - what McCluskey wants McCluskey gets. Mind you how many of those delegates are old enough to remember this sketch (8.00 mins in - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVhocDlrD7c)?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    Why would he want to, when it’s losing money hand over fist?
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    I have given it some thought and I like Corbyns brexit policy. In fact all the other political parties should adopt it.

    Ask yourself, does leaving without a deal bring closure? Does revoke and ignoring 2016 bring the needed closure from the crisis allowing the country to move on? No dealers and revokers aren’t offering closure, just more politics, just exploiting the crisis for their own self interest.

    You could call it a fudge, but anything trying to put us on a road to closure would be called a fudge by rivals with a very clear policy (but not one that brings closure) would it not?
  • Sandpit said:

    According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    Why would he want to, when it’s losing money hand over fist?
    Here's a naive suggestion.

    For personal honour and a sense of obligation to customers and creditors.

    And after happily taking millions in pay while the company steadily went bankrupt.
  • According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    That information was added in an edit that also stated he's married to Ed Sheeran, so I suspect it may not be 100% accurate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Fankhauser&diff=917308681&oldid=917300677
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited September 2019
    Nigelb said:

    The collapse in German manufacturing has now become frighteningly steep:

    https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/1f489cd97178420799000583692a1886

    if that keeps rolling, Germany and by extension the Euro is in trouble. Germany needs to do something to get domestic demand rolling, so far Merkel has avoided addressing the issue. Three of Germany;s top 5 export markets are giving it a problem US, China ( trade war slunp ) and UK ( Brexit uncertainty ), not much on the horizon atm to counteract that.
    The switch to electric vehicles is also going to hit their manufacturing sector hard - particularly the components industry.
    Very much so, the worldwide car industry is in a massive state of flux at the moment. Modern cars are ultra-reliable and people are holding on to them while they wait to see what happens with various technologies and regulations in the next few years.

    That said, the Germans have come to the electric car party with the Porsche Taycan, launched last week. Still a £100k+ car though, not close to the mainstream yet.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    egg said:

    I have given it some thought and I like Corbyns brexit policy. In fact all the other political parties should adopt it.

    Ask yourself, does leaving without a deal bring closure? Does revoke and ignoring 2016 bring the needed closure from the crisis allowing the country to move on? No dealers and revokers aren’t offering closure, just more politics, just exploiting the crisis for their own self interest.

    You could call it a fudge, but anything trying to put us on a road to closure would be called a fudge by rivals with a very clear policy (but not one that brings closure) would it not?

    Labour's policy is the correct approach - unfortunately it isn't sellable to a world where everyone is leave or remain....
  • According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    That information was added in an edit that also stated he's married to Ed Sheeran, so I suspect it may not be 100% accurate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Fankhauser&diff=917308681&oldid=917300677
    Is Ed Sheerhan worth $15 billion?
  • According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    Not many people worth $15bn work for $2m a year. He would be earning $500m+ a year from his portfolio so would be quite sceptical wiki is correct.
  • According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    That information was added in an edit that also stated he's married to Ed Sheeran, so I suspect it may not be 100% accurate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Fankhauser&diff=917308681&oldid=917300677
    I suspected the possibility which is why I used the word 'if' in my original comment.

    Do people who add false info to wiki get banned from the website ?
  • Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Labour, SNP and LibDem spin teams will be looking to tear that apart. Less taking back control and more handing it straight over to Washington (DC, not Tyne and Wear). Taking American rules, submitting to secret American courts, goodbye NHS and hello chlorinated chicken.
    A rushed deal is almost certainly a bad deal, though Trump may be looking for a way out of his trade wars.
    Trump will be looking to give American farmers, hurt by the China trade war, unfettered access to Britain. Goodbye standards; goodbye British agriculture.
    Goodbye any sort of agreement with the EU. Goodbye the ability of the NHS to buy cheaper generic drugs or for NICE to look at the cost effectiveness of new treatments. The US pharmaceutical industry will be delighted at the extra £350 million a week.
    The details in the link posted earlier bear reading:
    https://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/2019/03/05/the-us-negotiating-objectives-for-the-uk-us-trade-deal-clearly-put-america-first/

    How anyone (in the UK) could be arguing in favour of this, irrespective of their Brexit stance, beggars belief.
    Many Brexiteers would rather suck up to Americans and be rogered senseless by any US President than be equal partners with Frenchmen and Germans. It is all part of their sad crazy WW2 obsession.
    Presumably the same nostalgia applies to the heirs of Uncle Joe.

    I note that the countries currently governed by Duterte & Bolsenaro were also our glorious allies.
  • According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    That information was added in an edit that also stated he's married to Ed Sheeran, so I suspect it may not be 100% accurate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Fankhauser&diff=917308681&oldid=917300677
    I suspected the possibility which is why I used the word 'if' in my original comment.

    Do people who add false info to wiki get banned from the website ?
    Sometimes, but Wikipedia doesn't require you to log in to make an edit, so any ban is by IP address and easily circumvented.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    Why would he want to, when it’s losing money hand over fist?
    Here's a naive suggestion.

    For personal honour and a sense of obligation to customers and creditors.

    And after happily taking millions in pay while the company steadily went bankrupt.
    So for how long should he continue to prop up a failing business that’s drowning in debt?

    TC have been talking to potential investors for months now, and none of them see a viable company they wish to invest in.

    If Herr Fankhauser was worth $15bn yesterday, he’s worth an awful lot less than that today.
  • egg said:

    I have given it some thought and I like Corbyns brexit policy. In fact all the other political parties should adopt it.

    Ask yourself, does leaving without a deal bring closure? Does revoke and ignoring 2016 bring the needed closure from the crisis allowing the country to move on? No dealers and revokers aren’t offering closure, just more politics, just exploiting the crisis for their own self interest.

    You could call it a fudge, but anything trying to put us on a road to closure would be called a fudge by rivals with a very clear policy (but not one that brings closure) would it not?

    It would have been a good policy in 2016. It could still be an ok policy in a more divided UK today with clear support from the leader and leadership.

    The policy combined with the leaders ambiguity, negativity vs obvious remain lean from Thornberry, Starmer & to an extent McDonnell is what makes it look like a fudge.
  • According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    That information was added in an edit that also stated he's married to Ed Sheeran, so I suspect it may not be 100% accurate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Fankhauser&diff=917308681&oldid=917300677
    I suspected the possibility which is why I used the word 'if' in my original comment.

    Do people who add false info to wiki get banned from the website ?
    Sometimes, but Wikipedia doesn't require you to log in to make an edit, so any ban is by IP address and easily circumvented.
    That seems a bit lax for a website which is so widely used.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Nigelb said:

    The collapse in German manufacturing has now become frighteningly steep:

    https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/1f489cd97178420799000583692a1886

    if that keeps rolling, Germany and by extension the Euro is in trouble. Germany needs to do something to get domestic demand rolling, so far Merkel has avoided addressing the issue. Three of Germany;s top 5 export markets are giving it a problem US, China ( trade war slunp ) and UK ( Brexit uncertainty ), not much on the horizon atm to counteract that.
    The switch to electric vehicles is also going to hit their manufacturing sector hard - particularly the components industry.
    Well would you want to be a manufacturer of exhaust systems or fuel tanks knowing your product is dead in about 10-15 years ?

    The other surprising thing I heard on R4 was that all car manufacturers are going to cease producing very small cars such as Peugeot 107 or VW Up as they reckon they will only be able to make money on them (when changed to battery) by charging a price that makes them unaffordable,

    That seems mad as they are generally quite fuel efficient and dont do great mileage as their buyers use them for local trips in the main.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    edited September 2019
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    Why would he want to, when it’s losing money hand over fist?
    Here's a naive suggestion.

    For personal honour and a sense of obligation to customers and creditors.

    And after happily taking millions in pay while the company steadily went bankrupt.
    So for how long should he continue to prop up a failing business that’s drowning in debt?

    TC have been talking to potential investors for months now, and none of them see a viable company they wish to invest in.

    If Herr Fankhauser was worth $15bn yesterday, he’s worth an awful lot less than that today.
    They shouldn't be propping up a business which is drowning in debt but neither should they have allowed the current situation to develop.

    What they should have done was shut it down in an orderly manner years ago minimising inconvenience to consumers and creditors.

    But what happens instead is that the directors keep the business going to the bitter end thereby ensuring maximum earnings for themselves and then demand everyone else take the financial hit (including the tax payers).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    That information was added in an edit that also stated he's married to Ed Sheeran, so I suspect it may not be 100% accurate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Fankhauser&diff=917308681&oldid=917300677
    Is Ed Sheerhan worth $15 billion?
    Nope! Musicians can be worth tens of millions, but rarely much more than that. Those that have made huge fortunes do it from other investments.

    The only musician billionaire that springs to mind is US rapper Dr Dre, who sold the Beats music company he co-founded to Apple in a deal worth $3bn.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    According to wiki Thomas Cook's CEO is worth over $15 BILLION:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fankhauser

    If so he could bail it out with his loose change.

    That information was added in an edit that also stated he's married to Ed Sheeran, so I suspect it may not be 100% accurate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Fankhauser&diff=917308681&oldid=917300677
    I suspected the possibility which is why I used the word 'if' in my original comment.

    Do people who add false info to wiki get banned from the website ?
    Sometimes, but Wikipedia doesn't require you to log in to make an edit, so any ban is by IP address and easily circumvented.
    That seems a bit lax for a website which is so widely used.
    Generally I avoid it for anything like this. I was suspicious when I saw how short the entry was. His predecessor, on the other hand, has a much fuller entry:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_Green

    That doesn't automatically make it kosher, but it does cite sources.
  • Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Thomas Cook made one fundamental mistake (on top of countless others)... It wasn't a bank. Deep irony that RBS are the ones behind this closure.

    Thomas Cook has been in trouble for years. And its failure causes no systemic problem for others. Most of the costs will be covered by insurance. Why it is such a big story beats me. You’d think we were airlifting starving children out of a war zone the way journalists are covering it.
    When a big high st name goes tits up its big news. This one has an extra emotional dimension, because people wait all year for their big annual holiday /honeymoon that gets screwed up. It's big story.
    The first high profile casulty of Brexit.



    Perhaps you could explain your reasoning behind that claim.
    The pounds fall in value since the referendum must have given them problems.#https://www.finder.com/uk/brexit-pound
    Yet its not stopped British people spending record amounts on overseas travel:

    2015 £39bn
    2018 £45bn

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/leisureandtourism/timeseries/gmbb/ott
    £39 to £45 billion is just what you'd expect from the decline in sterling over the same period. Foreign holidays have their underlying costs priced and paid in foreign money.

    Hmm. 39 to 45 -- it's another bloody ww2 metaphor :wink:
  • Mr. Richard, it's why Wikipedia shouldn't be taken as gospel truth, but the alternative to easy editing is to make it difficult which largely defeats the point.

    I remember when a composer died, some wag changed his bio to add a credit for some S Club 7 songs, which was dutifully reported by the credulous media.
This discussion has been closed.