Brilliant thread. Very high quality debate on the pros and cons of ' just revoke ' as Lib Dem policy.
My two penneth is it's a return to the Liberal Democrats besetting sin. Great tactics but poor strategy. Revoing A50 is a great policy for the Liberal Democrats as long as they never have the power to implement it. And they won't win a majority at the next election so that's OK. And they've learned the lesson of Tuition Fees and pre compromised. We know the policy is for a majority government only and we are told what the fall back position is if they don't which they won't.
So the Lib Dems get clarity, purity, speed and simplicity for their Brexit offer. Great !
The problem is with FPTP someone eventually ( or in a few months ) get a majority in the Commons. And if Commons majorities for manifesto pledges can overturn referendum results.... Indeed the logic is why bother with referendums at all ? If you can revoke with a majority you can invoke with one.
It was inevitable the Lib Dems would move now the Labour Party is a referendum in all circumstances party. They have to have clear blue and gold water between them and Labour because their phoenix like rebirth is being powered by remainiacs. Revoking is the natural place to go. As long as they never have to do it and until someone else does. Then all hell will break loose.
Well, it's kind of consistent behaviour by the Lib Dems.
I mean, they used to be the only major political party advocating an In-Out referendum on our membership of the European Union.
Indeed the logic is why bother with referendums at all ?
I don't think our MPs need any more urging to be on board with that message. Were it not for the inconvenience of the first EU ref I doubt there'd be much talk of needing another, and who is going to be the next party to suggest a referendum on anything? Minus the SNP.
The first EU ref. was in 1975. We had a bright (if devious and unprincipled) PM called Harold Wilson. He at least checked that he'd win it before he called it and duly won a 67/33% landslide.
Limited referendums might be OK if we require a supermajority. Otherwise the thought of a public vote on say hanging people again, or reducing the legal time limit for abortion, fills me with dread.
Cameron was too dim to check that the opinion polls were at least say 70/30% in favour of EU membership, i.e. to give him a safety margin.
On the other hand, it might be instructive to go back to 2013 and look at the various EU-related conversations on here, to see that the chatterati (within and without the Conservative Party) do not necessarily match that chart.
Europhobia did not just spring into being suddenly at the end of 2015 in the public's mind. It did start to get outlets, however.
OGH kept running the line that "Look at the charts - no-one gives a toss about Europe as an issue." Whilst some of us were saying look at things that ARE a concern for the public- such as immigration. Those are EU concerns..... And we were right.
Yes, and the fact people responded to the vote as they did rather proves it was a issue for people. People are essentially saying Cameron is a wizard who conjured such feeling out of nothing if they don't think it was an issue. And if it was a matter of things being unleashed then it supports the argument that things were pent up and would be released in some way regardless. He still should have prepared more though.
Failure to prepare for a referendum loss looks even more stupid in the light of the hay that he could have been made with a Yellowhammer-type document, detailing the complexities of actually leaving (rather than nebulous arm-waving "end of the world" Project fear that wasn't believed).
That would have required proper preparation and attention to detail.
Things which our politicians have allergies to.
And this is the same Cameron and Osborne who couldn't even be bothered to check that Gordon Brown's economic strategy was soundly based.
Thinks for a moment. Yup, fair summary. Anybody spot something I've missed?
Brooks Newmark is a pervert, you should ignore the musings of a pervert.
I did not know Brooks Newmark is a pervert. I do not know who Brooks Newmark is. If I google him will his perversion be interesting and kinky, or will I have to scrub my search history like I did the last time @Dura_Ace made a reference to an Afghan word/concept which when googled gives absolutely repellent results?
On the other hand, it might be instructive to go back to 2013 and look at the various EU-related conversations on here, to see that the chatterati (within and without the Conservative Party) do not necessarily match that chart.
Europhobia did not just spring into being suddenly at the end of 2015 in the public's mind. It did start to get outlets, however.
OGH kept running the line that "Look at the charts - no-one gives a toss about Europe as an issue." Whilst some of us were saying look at things that ARE a concern for the public- such as immigration. Those are EU concerns..... And we were right.
Yes, and the fact people responded to the vote as they did rather proves it was a issue for people. People are essentially saying Cameron is a wizard who conjured such feeling out of nothing if they don't think it was an issue. And if it was a matter of things being unleashed then it supports the argument that things were pent up and would be released in some way regardless. He still should have prepared more though.
Failure to prepare for a referendum loss looks even more stupid in the light of the hay that he could have been made with a Yellowhammer-type document, detailing the complexities of actually leaving (rather than nebulous arm-waving "end of the world" Project fear that wasn't believed).
That would have required proper preparation and attention to detail.
Things which our politicians have allergies to.
And this is the same Cameron and Osborne who couldn't even be bothered to check that Gordon Brown's economic strategy was soundly based.
Still the most astonishing thing for me about the referendum was not spotting that the immigration figures would come out with two weeks to go to the vote. It guaranteed it was THE issue as people decided their vote. Why couldn't it have been held the same day as the local elections? We've often had General Elections the same day. Cameron had total control on timing.
I thought my estimation of Cameron couldn't get much lower. Then I read today's extracts from his autobiography in the Sunday Times.
My God.
He wasn't just complacent and lazy. He was and is clueless. Helpless. Witless. A wildly over-promoted mediocrity. No wonder far smarter politicians - from Farage to Salmond - have just danced around him.
What's amazing is that he STILL comes across as faintly bewildered by it all. Like an officer class twit from the Raj in the 1930s, wondering why the Indian people aren't more grateful.
We were badly served. And Cameron has been badly served by his editors and friends. They should have prevented him from publishing this.
Man who doesnt like someone not impressed by their autobiography shocker, hold the front page!
Have you read the extracts? They are jaw dropping. Cameron, it turns out, is really really DIM. A very well educated idiot.
It explains so much.
Imagine not realising Cameron was a moron
I know. My bad. In my defence I have long suspected - and said - he was complacent, lazy and not-as-smart-as-he-thought.
But yes, I did not realise he was a thicko. A superbly educated thicko. Astonishing
The clues were there put the partisans missed them because they believed their own (or CCHQ's) propaganda.
The fake environmentalism, the cyclist with a chauffeur-driven briefcase; blowing the 2010 election against the background of the financial crisis. In government, it became clear Cameron, despite the years of work allegedly preparing for power, did not appreciate the scale of what IDS and Lansley were up to. The lack of wisdom in appointing Andy Coulson, and then allowing Dominic Cummings into government after he'd been blocked by Coulson.
And austerity, which aside from being economically illiterate, probably contributed to losing the Brexit referendum. Flirting with gerrymandering, which did likewise.
Then almost losing Scotland before losing Europe. ln the light of the 2010 election, we see Cameron as a poor campaigner, relying on negative tactics each time. The 2015 win owed most to the SNP. South of the border, there was a small swing to chaos with Ed Miliband.
Cameron was born into wealth and power like a minor aristocrat in the 19th Century who'd rule a bit of the empire because he did not have the zest to run a plantation. He believed in nothing in particular aside from his own virtue, and rarely met and never trusted anyone from a different background, hence the chumocracy, the Notting Hill and Chipping Norton sets. Even after the Brexit fallout, it is telling he is more angry at the outsider Gove than his fellow Etonian Boris.
Thinks for a moment. Yup, fair summary. Anybody spot something I've missed?
Brooks Newmark is a pervert, you should ignore the musings of a pervert.
I did not know Brooks Newmark is a pervert. I do not know who Brooks Newmark is. If I google him will his perversion be interesting and kinky, or will I have to scrub my search history like I did the last time @Dura_Ace made a reference to an Afghan word/concept which when googled gives absolutely repellent results?
Just a dickpicker, your search history should be relatively unsullied.
It always confused me how he got a first from Oxford and Bogdanor claimed he was one of the best students ever.
There’s never been any evidence of any intellectual curiosity whatsoever and I recall Obama’s people comparing him unfavourably with Brown...
I think that's the problem. Didn't he get a first at PPE at Oxford? That's quite an achievement, but it's the kind of thing you can get by application and being coached. It's not the kind of thing that requires overcoming difficulties/uncertainties thru strength/intelligence/courage/cunning. When he realised (about two weeks left to go in the ref?) that he might actually lose, he blustered, arsed around, lost and ran away.
Overcoming hard things requires innate strength and/or practice and experience. He didn't have either. He's not a bad or stupid or malevolent person, but at that level that's not enough. You have to be good at the job, and...he just wasn't.
Thinks for a moment. Yup, fair summary. Anybody spot something I've missed?
Brooks Newmark is a pervert, you should ignore the musings of a pervert.
I did not know Brooks Newmark is a pervert. I do not know who Brooks Newmark is. If I google him will his perversion be interesting and kinky, or will I have to scrub my search history like I did the last time @Dura_Ace made a reference to an Afghan word/concept which when googled gives absolutely repellent results?
He's a former Tory MP who had to resign in disgrace for sending dick pics to a journo pretending to be an activist.
The story broke a few hours after Mark Reckless had defected to UKIP.
It led to an interesting conversation with OGH explaining what a dick pic was.
I was editing PB then and I wanted a quiet weekend, so Brooks Newmark deserves the same circle of hell as Mark Reckless.
It always confused me how he got a first from Oxford and Bogdanor claimed he was one of the best students ever.
There’s never been any evidence of any intellectual curiosity whatsoever and I recall Obama’s people comparing him unfavourably with Brown.
He was highly articulate and plausible speaker though, ahead of Miliband (both D and E), May, Corbyn, and Johnson.
Highly polished what skills he had. But inadequate to the task of dealing the the Europe issue.
His biography demonstrates he really didn't understand the Conservative Party. They were prepared to go so far with him - but only so far. And he really didn't know where they were on Europe. If he did, he would have threatened the EU with recommending Leave. He'd be a bloody hero in the party if he had followed through with that when they palmed him off with the moth-eaten rug when he went to their carpet bazaar..
Brilliant thread. Very high quality debate on the pros and cons of ' just revoke ' as Lib Dem policy.
My two penneth is it's a return to the Liberal Democrats besetting sin. Great tactics but poor strategy. Revoing A50 is a great policy for the Liberal Democrats as long as they never have the power to implement it. And they won't win a majority at the next election so that's OK. And they've learned the lesson of Tuition Fees and pre compromised. We know the policy is for a majority government only and we are told what the fall back position is if they don't which they won't.
So the Lib Dems get clarity, purity, speed and simplicity for their Brexit offer. Great !
The problem is with FPTP someone eventually ( or in a few months ) get a majority in the Commons. And if Commons majorities for manifesto pledges can overturn referendum results.... Indeed the logic is why bother with referendums at all ? If you can revoke with a majority you can invoke with one.
It was inevitable the Lib Dems would move now the Labour Party is a referendum in all circumstances party. They have to have clear blue and gold water between them and Labour because their phoenix like rebirth is being powered by remainiacs. Revoking is the natural place to go. As long as they never have to do it and until someone else does. Then all hell will break loose.
Well, it's kind of consistent behaviour by the Lib Dems.
I mean, they used to be the only major political party advocating an In-Out referendum on our membership of the European Union.
Yes, that's an excellent example of the party's habit of campaigning for things safe in the knowledge they will never happen. I remember vividly delivering Focuses with that campaign on them myself.
It always confused me how he got a first from Oxford and Bogdanor claimed he was one of the best students ever.
There’s never been any evidence of any intellectual curiosity whatsoever and I recall Obama’s people comparing him unfavourably with Brown.
He was highly articulate and plausible speaker though, ahead of Miliband (both D and E), May, Corbyn, and Johnson.
Cameron has a good memory which is half the intellectual battle. I think it was @CarlottaVance who posted yesterday some tables showing Oxford awarding 35 to 40 per cent Firsts, and about 90 per cent Firsts or 2i's. Grade inflation isn't just for secondary schools.
On the other hand, it might be instructive to go back to 2013 and look at the various EU-related conversations on here, to see that the chatterati (within and without the Conservative Party) do not necessarily match that chart.
Europhobia did not just spring into being suddenly at the end of 2015 in the public's mind. It did start to get outlets, however.
OGH kept running the line that "Look at the charts - no-one gives a toss about Europe as an issue." Whilst some of us were saying look at things that ARE a concern for the public- such as immigration. Those are EU concerns..... And we were right.
Exactly, I posted such comments every time he tried that line. It was so obvious
It always confused me how he got a first from Oxford and Bogdanor claimed he was one of the best students ever.
There’s never been any evidence of any intellectual curiosity whatsoever and I recall Obama’s people comparing him unfavourably with Brown.
He was highly articulate and plausible speaker though, ahead of Miliband (both D and E), May, Corbyn, and Johnson.
Cameron has a good memory which is half the intellectual battle. I think it was @CarlottaVance who posted yesterday some tables showing Oxford awarding 35 to 40 per cent Firsts, and about 90 per cent Firsts or 2i's. Grade inflation isn't just for secondary schools.
I don't think it was anywhere near that high when Dave was getting high.
I thought my estimation of Cameron couldn't get much lower. Then I read today's extracts from his autobiography in the Sunday Times.
My God.
He wasn't just complacent and lazy. He was and is clueless. Helpless. Witless. A wildly over-promoted mediocrity. No wonder far smarter politicians - from Farage to Salmond - have just danced around him.
What's amazing is that he STILL comes across as faintly bewildered by it all. Like an officer class twit from the Raj in the 1930s, wondering why the Indian people aren't more grateful.
We were badly served. And Cameron has been badly served by his editors and friends. They should have prevented him from publishing this.
Man who doesnt like someone not impressed by their autobiography shocker, hold the front page!
Have you read the extracts? They are jaw dropping. Cameron, it turns out, is really really DIM. A very well educated idiot.
It explains so much.
Imagine not realising Cameron was a moron
I know. My bad. In my defence I have long suspected - and said - he was complacent, lazy and not-as-smart-as-he-thought.
But yes, I did not realise he was a thicko. A superbly educated thicko. Astonishing
Can you give an example highlighted in the extracts?
There are loads, but this is one, from just before the referendum
"George and I saw all the members of the cabinet, some of them more than once. George did an excellent job with Sajid Javid, who was far more pro-Brexit than I had thought. I failed dismally with Priti Patel, who revealed that she had always wanted to leave, but had more success with Liz Truss. All these conversations were far harder than I had expected. The latent leaver gene in the Tory party was more dominant than I had foreseen."
HOW could he have been so blissfully unaware of the fact that euroscepticism was deeply, DEEPLY rooted in the Tory party - part of its intellectual DNA?
I mean, really??!! The two Tory PMs before him had been brought down by Europe. Including Thatcher. Europe had torn the party to pieces for decades, euroscepticism was rampant, yet Dave "I think I would be rather good as PM" Cameron was somehow unaware of this tendency, despite calling a referendum so as to solve this exact same neurosis. WTF.
It beggars belief. iI also beggars belief that he would commit such inane maunderings to print.
The impression is of a well meaning but rather flustered man, easily confused by events, and promoted waaaaaay beyond his abilities.
I don’t see a middle ground for the Lib Dem revoke policy .
It’s either going to crash and burn and hurt them or be a winner .
It’s not a compromise position , the danger is it’s seen as an extreme position just as the BP no deal is.
Although polls show a healthy amount of revokers these hypothetical polls don’t include that more Remainers might during a lengthy general election campaign come to the conclusion that staying in the EU needs a proper mandate .
Perhaps I’m not as Remain as I thought ! Which is bizarre , I’m staunchly pro EU and detest Brexit however I’m deeply uncomfortable with the Lib Dem proposal .
If I’m having these deep misgivings I can’t imagine my thoughts won’t be shared by many other Remainers .
This is a position for an election. Imagine a third party looking for a USP. Leave at any costs has been taken. An indecipherable fudge has been taken so what are you left with?
Johnson is loathed by Remainers not least for the disingenuous Leave campaign. Corbyn for going AWOL during the campaign. People have had enough. Those who want to Remain and see an end to all this have only one viable option.
There are loads, but this is one, from just before the referendum
"George and I saw all the members of the cabinet, some of them more than once. George did an excellent job with Sajid Javid, who was far more pro-Brexit than I had thought. I failed dismally with Priti Patel, who revealed that she had always wanted to leave, but had more success with Liz Truss. All these conversations were far harder than I had expected. The latent leaver gene in the Tory party was more dominant than I had foreseen."
HOW could he have been so blissfully unaware of the fact that euroscepticism was deeply, DEEPLY rooted in the Tory party - part of its intellectual DNA?
I mean, really??!! The two Tory PMs before him had been brought down by Europe. Including Thatcher. Europe had torn the party to pieces for decades, euroscepticism was rampant, yet Dave "I think I would be rather good as PM" Cameron was somehow unaware of this tendency, despite calling a referendum so as to solve this exact same neurosis. WTF.
It beggars belief. iI also beggars belief that he would commit such inane maunderings to print.
The impression is of a well meaning but rather flustered man, easily confused by events, and promoted waaaaaay beyond his abilities.
Deary me is that the crap Dave has been writing in his super expensive caravan. He certainly shouldn't think of becoming a full time writer.
I thought my estimation of Cameron couldn't get much lower. Then I read today's extracts from his autobiography in the Sunday Times.
My God.
He wasn't just complacent and lazy. He was and is clueless. Helpless. Witless. A wildly over-promoted mediocrity. No wonder far smarter politicians - from Farage to Salmond - have just danced around him.
What's amazing is that he STILL comes across as faintly bewildered by it all. Like an officer class twit from the Raj in the 1930s, wondering why the Indian people aren't more grateful.
We were badly served. And Cameron has been badly served by his editors and friends. They should have prevented him from publishing this.
Man who doesnt like someone not impressed by their autobiography shocker, hold the front page!
Have you read the extracts? They are jaw dropping. Cameron, it turns out, is really really DIM. A very well educated idiot.
It explains so much.
Imagine not realising Cameron was a moron
I know. My bad. In my defence I have long suspected - and said - he was complacent, lazy and not-as-smart-as-he-thought.
But yes, I did not realise he was a thicko. A superbly educated thicko. Astonishing
Can you give an example highlighted in the extracts?
There are loads, but this is one, from just before the referendum
"George and I saw all the members of the cabinet, some of them more than once. George did an excellent job with Sajid Javid, who was far more pro-Brexit than I had thought. I failed dismally with Priti Patel, who revealed that she had always wanted to leave, but had more success with Liz Truss. All these conversations were far harder than I had expected. The latent leaver gene in the Tory party was more dominant than I had foreseen."
HOW could he have been so blissfully unaware of the fact that euroscepticism was deeply, DEEPLY rooted in the Tory party - part of its intellectual DNA?
I mean, really??!! The two Tory PMs before him had been brought down by Europe. Including Thatcher. Europe had torn the party to pieces for decades, euroscepticism was rampant, yet Dave "I think I would be rather good as PM" Cameron was somehow unaware of this tendency, despite calling a referendum so as to solve this exact same neurosis. WTF.
It beggars belief. iI also beggars belief that he would commit such inane maunderings to print.
The impression is of a well meaning but rather flustered man, easily confused by events, and promoted waaaaaay beyond his abilities.
Thinks for a moment. Yup, fair summary. Anybody spot something I've missed?
Brooks Newmark is a pervert, you should ignore the musings of a pervert.
I did not know Brooks Newmark is a pervert. I do not know who Brooks Newmark is. If I google him will his perversion be interesting and kinky, or will I have to scrub my search history like I did the last time @Dura_Ace made a reference to an Afghan word/concept which when googled gives absolutely repellent results?
He's a former Tory MP who had to resign in disgrace for sending dick pics to a journo pretending to be an activist.
The story broke a few hours after Mark Reckless had defected to UKIP.
It led to an interesting conversation with OGH explaining what a dick pic was.
I was editing PB then and I wanted a quiet weekend, so Brooks Newmark deserves the same circle of hell as Mark Reckless.
I wonder what sort of an activist she was pretending to be?
There are loads, but this is one, from just before the referendum
"George and I saw all the members of the cabinet, some of them more than once. George did an excellent job with Sajid Javid, who was far more pro-Brexit than I had thought. I failed dismally with Priti Patel, who revealed that she had always wanted to leave, but had more success with Liz Truss. All these conversations were far harder than I had expected. The latent leaver gene in the Tory party was more dominant than I had foreseen."
HOW could he have been so blissfully unaware of the fact that euroscepticism was deeply, DEEPLY rooted in the Tory party - part of its intellectual DNA?
I mean, really??!! The two Tory PMs before him had been brought down by Europe. Including Thatcher. Europe had torn the party to pieces for decades, euroscepticism was rampant, yet Dave "I think I would be rather good as PM" Cameron was somehow unaware of this tendency, despite calling a referendum so as to solve this exact same neurosis. WTF.
It beggars belief. iI also beggars belief that he would commit such inane maunderings to print.
The impression is of a well meaning but rather flustered man, easily confused by events, and promoted waaaaaay beyond his abilities.
Deary me is that the crap Dave has been writing in his super expensive caravan. He certainly shouldn't think of becoming a full time writer.
Yes, it's as bad as that, and as badly written as that. Shocking.
Check this long, self-pitying, still-bewildered whinge:
"Nearly every voice that should have mattered backed our case. The voice of our main industries: cars, aircraft, trains, food, pharmaceuticals, farming, fashion, film. The voice of business: the CBI. The voice of many workers: the Trade Union Congress. Our allies around the world: America, India, Japan, Australia, Canada. The multilateral bodies of the world: the International Monetary Fund, the World Trade Organisation, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Thirteen Nobel prize-winners. The head of the NHS. The former heads of MI5 and MI6. The head of the Church of England. Nine out of 10 economists. “Maybe it’s a conspiracy,” I would say. “Or maybe all these people are right.""
Thirteen Nobel Prize Winners! Well done Dave.
And I love that bit at the end where he seems to be talking to himself.
It always confused me how he got a first from Oxford and Bogdanor claimed he was one of the best students ever.
There’s never been any evidence of any intellectual curiosity whatsoever and I recall Obama’s people comparing him unfavourably with Brown.
He was highly articulate and plausible speaker though, ahead of Miliband (both D and E), May, Corbyn, and Johnson.
Cameron has a good memory which is half the intellectual battle. I think it was @CarlottaVance who posted yesterday some tables showing Oxford awarding 35 to 40 per cent Firsts, and about 90 per cent Firsts or 2i's. Grade inflation isn't just for secondary schools.
Remind me what Boris Johnson's claim to academic genius was.
There are loads, but this is one, from just before the referendum
"George and I saw all the members of the cabinet, some of them more than once. George did an excellent job with Sajid Javid, who was far more pro-Brexit than I had thought. I failed dismally with Priti Patel, who revealed that she had always wanted to leave, but had more success with Liz Truss. All these conversations were far harder than I had expected. The latent leaver gene in the Tory party was more dominant than I had foreseen."
HOW could he have been so blissfully unaware of the fact that euroscepticism was deeply, DEEPLY rooted in the Tory party - part of its intellectual DNA?
I mean, really??!! The two Tory PMs before him had been brought down by Europe. Including Thatcher. Europe had torn the party to pieces for decades, euroscepticism was rampant, yet Dave "I think I would be rather good as PM" Cameron was somehow unaware of this tendency, despite calling a referendum so as to solve this exact same neurosis. WTF.
It beggars belief. iI also beggars belief that he would commit such inane maunderings to print.
The impression is of a well meaning but rather flustered man, easily confused by events, and promoted waaaaaay beyond his abilities.
Deary me is that the crap Dave has been writing in his super expensive caravan. He certainly shouldn't think of becoming a full time writer.
Yes, it's as bad as that, and as badly written as that. Shocking.
Check this long, self-pitying, still-bewildered whinge:
"Nearly every voice that should have mattered backed our case. The voice of our main industries: cars, aircraft, trains, food, pharmaceuticals, farming, fashion, film. The voice of business: the CBI. The voice of many workers: the Trade Union Congress. Our allies around the world: America, India, Japan, Australia, Canada. The multilateral bodies of the world: the International Monetary Fund, the World Trade Organisation, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Thirteen Nobel prize-winners. The head of the NHS. The former heads of MI5 and MI6. The head of the Church of England. Nine out of 10 economists. “Maybe it’s a conspiracy,” I would say. “Or maybe all these people are right.""
Thirteen Nobel Prize Winners! Well done Dave.
And I love that bit at the end where he seems to be talking to himself.
Isn't the purpose of these authobiopgraphies to preserve things, well, for the record? Great writing or self reflection are unusual I imagine.
There are loads, but this is one, from just before the referendum
"George and I saw all the members of the cabinet, some of them more than once. George did an excellent job with Sajid Javid, who was far more pro-Brexit than I had thought. I failed dismally with Priti Patel, who revealed that she had always wanted to leave, but had more success with Liz Truss. All these conversations were far harder than I had expected. The latent leaver gene in the Tory party was more dominant than I had foreseen."
HOW could he have been so blissfully unaware of the fact that euroscepticism was deeply, DEEPLY rooted in the Tory party - part of its intellectual DNA?
I mean, really??!! The two Tory PMs before him had been brought down by Europe. Including Thatcher. Europe had torn the party to pieces for decades, euroscepticism was rampant, yet Dave "I think I would be rather good as PM" Cameron was somehow unaware of this tendency, despite calling a referendum so as to solve this exact same neurosis. WTF.
It beggars belief. iI also beggars belief that he would commit such inane maunderings to print.
The impression is of a well meaning but rather flustered man, easily confused by events, and promoted waaaaaay beyond his abilities.
Deary me is that the crap Dave has been writing in his super expensive caravan. He certainly shouldn't think of becoming a full time writer.
Yes, it's as bad as that, and as badly written as that. Shocking.
Check this long, self-pitying, still-bewildered whinge:
"Nearly every voice that should have mattered backed our case. The voice of our main industries: cars, aircraft, trains, food, pharmaceuticals, farming, fashion, film. The voice of business: the CBI. The voice of many workers: the Trade Union Congress. Our allies around the world: America, India, Japan, Australia, Canada. The multilateral bodies of the world: the International Monetary Fund, the World Trade Organisation, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Thirteen Nobel prize-winners. The head of the NHS. The former heads of MI5 and MI6. The head of the Church of England. Nine out of 10 economists. “Maybe it’s a conspiracy,” I would say. “Or maybe all these people are right.""
Thirteen Nobel Prize Winners! Well done Dave.
And I love that bit at the end where he seems to be talking to himself.
I thought my estimation of Cameron couldn't get much lower. Then I read today's extracts from his autobiography in the Sunday Times.
My God.
Man who doesnt like someone not impressed by their autobiography shocker, hold the front page!
Have you read the extracts? They are jaw dropping. Cameron, it turns out, is really really DIM. A very well educated idiot.
It explains so much.
Imagine not realising Cameron was a moron
I know. My bad. In my defence I have long suspected - and said - he was complacent, lazy and not-as-smart-as-he-thought.
But yes, I did not realise he was a thicko. A superbly educated thicko. Astonishing
The clues were there put the partisans missed them because they believed their own (or CCHQ's) propaganda.
The fake environmentalism, the cyclist with a chauffeur-driven briefcase; blowing the 2010 election against the background of the financial crisis. In government, it became clear Cameron, despite the years of work allegedly preparing for power, did not appreciate the scale of what IDS and Lansley were up to. The lack of wisdom in appointing Andy Coulson, and then allowing Dominic Cummings into government after he'd been blocked by Coulson.
And austerity, which aside from being economically illiterate, probably contributed to losing the Brexit referendum. Flirting with gerrymandering, which did likewise.
Then almost losing Scotland before losing Europe. ln the light of the 2010 election, we see Cameron as a poor campaigner, relying on negative tactics each time. The 2015 win owed most to the SNP. South of the border, there was a small swing to chaos with Ed Miliband.
Cameron was born into wealth and power like a minor aristocrat in the 19th Century who'd rule a bit of the empire because he did not have the zest to run a plantation. He believed in nothing in particular aside from his own virtue, and rarely met and never trusted anyone from a different background, hence the chumocracy, the Notting Hill and Chipping Norton sets. Even after the Brexit fallout, it is telling he is more angry at the outsider Gove than his fellow Etonian Boris.
There are loads, but this is one, from just before the referendum
"George and I saw all the members of the cabinet, some of them more than once. George did an excellent job with Sajid Javid, who was far more pro-Brexit than I had thought. I failed dismally with Priti Patel, who revealed that she had always wanted to leave, but had more success with Liz Truss. All these conversations were far harder than I had expected. The latent leaver gene in the Tory party was more dominant than I had foreseen."
HOW could he have been so blissfully unaware of the fact that euroscepticism was deeply, DEEPLY rooted in the Tory party - part of its intellectual DNA?
I mean, really??!! The two Tory PMs before him had been brought down by Europe. Including Thatcher. Europe had torn the party to pieces for decades, euroscepticism was rampant, yet Dave "I think I would be rather good as PM" Cameron was somehow unaware of this tendency, despite calling a referendum so as to solve this exact same neurosis. WTF.
It beggars belief. iI also beggars belief that he would commit such inane maunderings to print.
The impression is of a well meaning but rather flustered man, easily confused by events, and promoted waaaaaay beyond his abilities.
Deary me is that the crap Dave has been writing in his super expensive caravan. He certainly shouldn't think of becoming a full time writer.
Yes, it's as bad as that, and as badly written as that. Shocking.
Check this long, self-pitying, still-bewildered whinge:
"Nearly every voice that should have mattered backed our case. The voice of our main industries: cars, aircraft, trains, food, pharmaceuticals, farming, fashion, film. The voice of business: the CBI. The voice of many workers: the Trade Union Congress. Our allies around the world: America, India, Japan, Australia, Canada. The multilateral bodies of the world: the International Monetary Fund, the World Trade Organisation, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Thirteen Nobel prize-winners. The head of the NHS. The former heads of MI5 and MI6. The head of the Church of England. Nine out of 10 economists. “Maybe it’s a conspiracy,” I would say. “Or maybe all these people are right.""
Thirteen Nobel Prize Winners! Well done Dave.
And I love that bit at the end where he seems to be talking to himself.
Isn't the purpose of these authobiopgraphies to preserve things, well, for the record? Great writing or self reflection are unusual I imagine.
No they're not unusual. e.g. Thatcher's memoirs are minor masterpieces. Lots of politicians, Left and Right, write very fine books, witb precious insight.
Cameron's memoirs are revealing, but not in the way he intended - if these extracts are anything to go by.
hey are jaw dropping. Cameron, it turns out, is really really DIM. A very well educated idiot.
It explains so much.
Imagine not realising Cameron was a moron
I know. My bad. In my defence I have long suspected - and said - he was complacent, lazy and not-as-smart-as-he-thought.
But yes, I did not realise he was a thicko. A superbly educated thicko. Astonishing
The clues were there put the partisans missed them because they believed their own (or CCHQ's) propaganda.
The fake environmentalism, the cyclist with a chauffeur-driven briefcase; blowing the 2010 election against the background of the financial crisis. In government, it became clear Cameron, despite the years of work allegedly preparing for power, did not appreciate the scale of what IDS and Lansley were up to. The lack of wisdom in appointing Andy Coulson, and then allowing Dominic Cummings into government after he'd been blocked by Coulson.
And austerity, which aside from being economically illiterate, probably contributed to losing the Brexit referendum. Flirting with gerrymandering, which did likewise.
Then almost losing Scotland before losing Europe. ln the light of the 2010 election, we see Cameron as a poor campaigner, relying on negative tactics each time. The 2015 win owed most to the SNP. South of the border, there was a small swing to chaos with Ed Miliband.
Cameron was born into wealth and power like a minor aristocrat in the 19th Century who'd rule a bit of the empire because he did not have the zest to run a plantation. He believed in nothing in particular aside from his own virtue, and rarely met and never trusted anyone from a different background, hence the chumocracy, the Notting Hill and Chipping Norton sets. Even after the Brexit fallout, it is telling he is more angry at the outsider Gove than his fellow Etonian Boris.
That's a better written and more insightful comment than Cameron could have managed.
I'll add that I'm not sure he had any understanding or interest in Conservative voters.
I've previously suggested that if Cameron's background had been a bit more 'Hampsteady' or if he had entered politics a few years later then he could have been LibDem or Labour.
HOW could he have been so blissfully unaware of the fact that euroscepticism was deeply, DEEPLY rooted in the Tory party - part of its intellectual DNA?
It's emotional DNA would be more accurate.
The intellect stays on the bench most of the time when it comes to ardent leaverism.
That's why it's appeal is so strong and so difficult to counter.
There are loads, but this is one, from just before the referendum
"George and I saw all the members of the cabinet, some of them more than once. George did an excellent job with Sajid Javid, who was far more pro-Brexit than I had thought. I failed dismally with Priti Patel, who revealed that she had always wanted to leave, but had more success with Liz Truss. All these conversations were far harder than I had expected. The latent leaver gene in the Tory party was more dominant than I had foreseen."
HOW could he have been so blissfully unaware of the fact that euroscepticism was deeply, DEEPLY rooted in the Tory party - part of its intellectual DNA?
I mean, really??!! The two Tory PMs before him had been brought down by Europe. Including Thatcher. Europe had torn the party to pieces for decades, euroscepticism was rampant, yet Dave "I think I would be rather good as PM" Cameron was somehow unaware of this tendency, despite calling a referendum so as to solve this exact same neurosis. WTF.
It beggars belief. iI also beggars belief that he would commit such inane maunderings to print.
The impression is of a well meaning but rather flustered man, easily confused by events, and promoted waaaaaay beyond his abilities.
Deary me is that the crap Dave has been writing in his super expensive caravan. He certainly shouldn't think of becoming a full time writer.
Yes, it's as bad as that, and as badly written as that. Shocking.
Check this long, self-pitying, still-bewildered whinge:
Thirteen Nobel Prize Winners! Well done Dave.
And I love that bit at the end where he seems to be talking to himself.
Isn't the purpose of these authobiopgraphies to preserve things, well, for the record? Great writing or self reflection are unusual I imagine.
No they're not unusual. e.g. Thatcher's memoirs are minor masterpieces. Lots of politicians, Left and Right, write very fine books, witb precious insight.
Cameron's memoirs are revealing, but not in the way he intended - if these extracts are anything to go by.
I don’t think ANY of that generation of Tory MPs have what might call a great brain.
Not Cameron (incurious), not Osborne (callow), not Hague (sterile).
And let us not speak of today’s generation on left or right.
'Leading not Leaving' would have been good. Not as good as 'Taking back Control' , but probably good enough to have swung the few percent that would have made the difference.
Comments
I mean, they used to be the only major political party advocating an In-Out referendum on our membership of the European Union.
Limited referendums might be OK if we require a supermajority. Otherwise the thought of a public vote on say hanging people again, or reducing the legal time limit for abortion, fills me with dread.
Cameron was too dim to check that the opinion polls were at least say 70/30% in favour of EU membership, i.e. to give him a safety margin.
Things which our politicians have allergies to.
And this is the same Cameron and Osborne who couldn't even be bothered to check that Gordon Brown's economic strategy was soundly based.
It always confused me how he got a first from Oxford and Bogdanor claimed he was one of the best students ever.
There’s never been any evidence of any intellectual curiosity whatsoever and I recall Obama’s people comparing him unfavourably with Brown.
He was highly articulate and plausible speaker though, ahead of Miliband (both D and E), May, Corbyn, and Johnson.
Schoolboy error doesn't begin to cover it.
The fake environmentalism, the cyclist with a chauffeur-driven briefcase; blowing the 2010 election against the background of the financial crisis. In government, it became clear Cameron, despite the years of work allegedly preparing for power, did not appreciate the scale of what IDS and Lansley were up to. The lack of wisdom in appointing Andy Coulson, and then allowing Dominic Cummings into government after he'd been blocked by Coulson.
And austerity, which aside from being economically illiterate, probably contributed to losing the Brexit referendum. Flirting with gerrymandering, which did likewise.
Then almost losing Scotland before losing Europe. ln the light of the 2010 election, we see Cameron as a poor campaigner, relying on negative tactics each time. The 2015 win owed most to the SNP. South of the border, there was a small swing to chaos with Ed Miliband.
Cameron was born into wealth and power like a minor aristocrat in the 19th Century who'd rule a bit of the empire because he did not have the zest to run a plantation. He believed in nothing in particular aside from his own virtue, and rarely met and never trusted anyone from a different background, hence the chumocracy, the Notting Hill and Chipping Norton sets. Even after the Brexit fallout, it is telling he is more angry at the outsider Gove than his fellow Etonian Boris.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7464613/MATTHEW-GOODWIN-says-David-Cameron-remember-British-people-asked-for.html
Overcoming hard things requires innate strength and/or practice and experience. He didn't have either. He's not a bad or stupid or malevolent person, but at that level that's not enough. You have to be good at the job, and...he just wasn't.
The story broke a few hours after Mark Reckless had defected to UKIP.
It led to an interesting conversation with OGH explaining what a dick pic was.
I was editing PB then and I wanted a quiet weekend, so Brooks Newmark deserves the same circle of hell as Mark Reckless.
"George and I saw all the members of the cabinet, some of them more than once. George did an excellent job with Sajid Javid, who was far more pro-Brexit than I had thought. I failed dismally with Priti Patel, who revealed that she had always wanted to leave, but had more success with Liz Truss. All these conversations were far harder than I had expected. The latent leaver gene in the Tory party was more dominant than I had foreseen."
HOW could he have been so blissfully unaware of the fact that euroscepticism was deeply, DEEPLY rooted in the Tory party - part of its intellectual DNA?
I mean, really??!! The two Tory PMs before him had been brought down by Europe. Including Thatcher. Europe had torn the party to pieces for decades, euroscepticism was rampant, yet Dave "I think I would be rather good as PM" Cameron was somehow unaware of this tendency, despite calling a referendum so as to solve this exact same neurosis. WTF.
It beggars belief. iI also beggars belief that he would commit such inane maunderings to print.
The impression is of a well meaning but rather flustered man, easily confused by events, and promoted waaaaaay beyond his abilities.
Johnson is loathed by Remainers not least for the disingenuous Leave campaign. Corbyn for going AWOL during the campaign. People have had enough. Those who want to Remain and see an end to all this have only one viable option.
Thank you both for the Brooks Newmark data.
Check this long, self-pitying, still-bewildered whinge:
"Nearly every voice that should have mattered backed our case. The voice of our main industries: cars, aircraft, trains, food, pharmaceuticals, farming, fashion, film. The voice of business: the CBI. The voice of many workers: the Trade Union Congress. Our allies around the world: America, India, Japan, Australia, Canada. The multilateral bodies of the world: the International Monetary Fund, the World Trade Organisation, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Thirteen Nobel prize-winners. The head of the NHS. The former heads of MI5 and MI6. The head of the Church of England. Nine out of 10 economists. “Maybe it’s a conspiracy,” I would say. “Or maybe all these people are right.""
Thirteen Nobel Prize Winners! Well done Dave.
And I love that bit at the end where he seems to be talking to himself.
I think the issue from a Remainer point of view . I know there’s no chance of them getting a majority so how would this effect my vote .
Would my reservations about it be enough to not vote for them in a Lib Dem v Tory marginal .
As a normal Labour voter my choice would be to either let the Tory in with a possible no deal or grin and bear it and still vote Lib Dem .
I don’t like the policy but it’s not enough for me to not vote tactically .
Perhaps this is what the Lib Dems are banking on.
NEW THREAD
Cameron's memoirs are revealing, but not in the way he intended - if these extracts are anything to go by.
I'll add that I'm not sure he had any understanding or interest in Conservative voters.
I've previously suggested that if Cameron's background had been a bit more 'Hampsteady' or if he had entered politics a few years later then he could have been LibDem or Labour.
The intellect stays on the bench most of the time when it comes to ardent leaverism.
That's why it's appeal is so strong and so difficult to counter.
Not Cameron (incurious), not Osborne (callow), not Hague (sterile).
And let us not speak of today’s generation on left or right.
No wonder polls are all over the place. Will not the most committed group dominate a sample more than its real share would ?