Really enjoying the seething bitterness of the Brexit loons on here who think that a party can be overrun by entryists, throw a moderate out, and that moderate should stay loyal to the party that expelled him.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
You can bet that this video of the current Cities of London and Westminster MP will be featured in Chuka's General election campaign
Just catching up after a week walking in the Basque Pyreneees (jolly nice it was too).
I was very impressed by Sam Gyimah's comments and his well-argued reasons for making the difficult decision to defect to the LibDems, He doesn't seem to be under any illusions.
I recall you were very impressed with Cameron's renegotiation with the EU too....
Indeed so. And subsequent events have proved in spectacular fashion that I was right.
Yes. You were spectacularly right that it would secure Cameron an overwhelming endorsement in the upcoming Referendum.
Guffaw.
It's best not to tell porkies when exchanging comments with me.
You dispute that you were a huge cheerleader for Cameron's deal when he came back from Brussels? That you dissected each element of what his deal "achieved"?
Don't accuse me of porkies. Or I'll start mining your quotes from that time.....
My concern is for the longer term. A lot of very angry people will be very upset if they have Brexit snatched from them.
As a strident Remainer Brexit has to be delivered, then we pick up the pieces.
Revoke is a good strategy for pinning down the hardcore Remain vote, but a hopeless strategy for government - it would be directly telling 52% of the country that democracy does not work, which would do serious structural damage to British society. Oddly, it's a retreat in ambition, from supposedly hoping to form a government to simply trying to maximise the core vote.
I'm in coalition with LibDem colleagues locally. I've more or less forgotten the Tory coalition period and accept that the LibDems have moved on. I've been pretty relaxed about the various tactical voting schemes floating around. But this policy seems to me unwise and too focused on narrow party advantage.
A LD revival at the expense of Labour is only likely to serve Johnson. I don't see the mathematics working under FPTP for PM Swinson.
The value of Sam Gyimah to the Lib Dems is that he tells disillusioned Tory voters, it's OK to switch to the Lib Dems.
He almost certainly believes he won't get much out of that bargain. But he's on his way out anyway, and I don't think most MPs go into politics for the salary, although it's nice to have while you can.
The clown is in it for his ego, a useless little pipsqueak who has delusions of his self. He has had his 10 seconds of fame at a Lib Dem conference, what a peak, and will sink back into the swamp he came from.
Labour will one day wonder how many elections Corbyn cost them.
He has fought just the one and did well. He did so starting from a polling position that was worse than it is now. He has thus earned the right to fight the next one.
He didn't do well. He lost!
These things are relative. He did lose but we'd been told they would go massively backwards and they didnt. Of course labour are giving him another go. If BXP stir up again he actually has a chance to be largest party.
What will be interesting is how the party responds if Boris does win a majority. What will the MPs do? How will the Corbynite masses react?
Labour will one day wonder how many elections Corbyn cost them.
He has fought just the one and did well. He did so starting from a polling position that was worse than it is now. He has thus earned the right to fight the next one.
He didn't do well. He lost!
These things are relative. He did lose but we'd been told they would go massively backwards and they didnt. Of course labour are giving him another go. If BXP stir up again he actually has a chance to be largest party.
What will be interesting is how the party responds if Boris does win a majority. What will the MPs do? How will the Corbynite masses react?
He will quit. Hes old and tired, he will try and ensure a long bailey or McDonnell handover
Interested to read yesterday that LDs and Tories in informal talks to try and prevent an SNP Natwash of the Scottish seats. Presumably something along the lines of free run in Fife, and the 3 non shetland seats in return for free run in berwickshire, dumfriesshire and a couple of the NE seats?
They are a bunch of losers , unable to win anything without cheating, your typical unionists.
Now pacts, official or otherwise, is cheating? You're becoming your own parody.
That said I dont imagine there will be any such free runs. They fear a backlash too much to cooperate like that.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
I disagree. I think it's shrewd judgement. The key thing for the Liberal Democrats is to hoover up Remain voters, a very large number of whom as we know are unreconciled to the result. Therefore, a simple message compared to the contortions and confusions of Labour cuts through nicely. Moreover, since however well they do they will be unable to form a government and will not wish to be involved in any government led by either main party given who the leaders are, there is no risk of this becoming another tuition fee albatross. They will not have to implement this pledge or break it.
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
None of this would be an issue if it were not for the fact that nobody can agree an alternative way forward. But as currently Leavers are themselves stopping us leaving, there is a fair argument that it has simply failed and it's time to call the whole thing off. Ironically of course that in itself goes some way to reinforce the Leaver message that we've been lied to about the extent of EU integration, but given the EU is divisive, rather than unpopular, that leaves a big pool to tap.
Bottom line is, right now given the shambles engulfing us a clear, simple and popular message is a good message. There are many upsides and very few potential downsides for them.
My concern is for the longer term. A lot of very angry people will be very upset if they have Brexit snatched from them.
As a strident Remainer Brexit has to be delivered, then we pick up the pieces.
100% agree. We need to leave and then win an election on a rejoining manifesto and the subsequent referendum.
Priti now on Marr pushing a points system for migration
That has to have the prefix "Australian style" - conjuring up images of affable white people speaking English to each other under warm blue skies in spacious affluent surroundings - otherwise it loses its enormous public appeal. So I hope she remembered.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
It is possible to be against a disorderly withdrawal without being a europhile. That may not apply to Gmiyah, given that he’s joined the Lib Dems.
But those who are against a disorderly withdrawal - what political home do they have - given that they’re gleefully being told by the likes of HYUFD and others to “fuck off”?
It is those who have turned a major political party into one that now actively supports as a matter of policy the UK’s disorderly withdrawal from an international organisation who need to be asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
I haven't told any of them to fuck off and I don't want them to.
Sam Gyimah stood for the leadership only a few months ago and fought for free speech in universities and also lower taxes. I'm astonished he's decided to defect at the Lib Dem conference and twist the knife, rather than stay and fight for his whip to be restored. I don't expect Boris Johnson to be around very long.
He should have pushed his point of view as an independent Conservative like all the others have. His stump speech this weekend, where he talked about what other Liberal Democrat values he shared, just made it look he'd secretly been one all along. It weakens his argument within the Conservative family, rather than strengthens it, and fuels a betrayal narrative.
Looks like sour grapes to me. I struggle to see a situation you woukd accept a defector as having made a reasonable decision.
I've accepted Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen as being poor fits for the Conservative Party. I've said Anna Soubry is a Conservative (despite me personally finding her rude and aggressive) as is Dominic Grieve. Philip Lee was no surprise to me. So your comments are inaccurate and unwarranted.
Your posts are continually disappointing. Such a shame. You've turned on a head of pin since the Brexit referendum, and now simply take an anti-Brexit or left-leaning tinge to any discussion on here.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
I disagree. I think it's shrewd judgement. The key thing for the Liberal Democrats is to hoover up Remain voters, a very large number of whom as we know are unreconciled to the result. Therefore, a simple message compared to the contortions and confusions of Labour cuts through nicely. Moreover, since however well they do they will be unable to form a government and will not wish to be involved in any government led by either main party given who the leaders are, there is no risk of this becoming another tuition fee albatross. They will not have to implement this pledge or break it.
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
None of this would be an issue if it were not for the fact that nobody can agree an alternative way forward. But as currently Leavers are themselves stopping us leaving, there is a fair argument that it has simply failed and it's time to call the whole thing off. Ironically of course that in itself goes some way to reinforce the Leaver message that we've been lied to about the extent of EU integration, but given the EU is divisive, rather than unpopular, that leaves a big pool to tap.
Bottom line is, right now given the shambles engulfing us a clear, simple and popular message is a good message. There are many upsides and very few potential downsides for them.
Agreed. Also it has the advantage over a second referendum of being instant, it would make the madness stop rather than extending it for many months.
So 17.4m massively pissed off voters is your sane idea for making the madness stop? Really?
It would make our membership of the EU completely illegitimate in the eyes of half the country, who would vote to Leave without a referendum in every subsequent election. Soomer or later we would be out again.
It would make absolute sense for LDs and Greens to merge. The LD membership would embrace environmental policy and I think would drag in a fair % of Labour supporters. It would, in some ways be a new radical party.
I know lots of Greens (I'm in coalition with them too, come to that) and their strength and weakness is that they enjoy being a positive force for pure left-wing environmentalism without compromise. I used to wonder why they didn't join Labour after Corbyn moved Labour policy to be extremely similar, but culturally they remain quite distinct from both Labour and LibDems, both of which continue to nourish hopes of government sooner or later. The Greens are having fun, have no interest in forming a government, and see no reason to merge with anyone.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
.
”.
You are ignoring the obvious choice: to exit the EU on an orderly basis with a sensible Withdrawal Agreement, on a basis of goodwill and then proceed to agree a long-term workable relationship with the EU.
That is what I would expect any grown up party to do. I do not agree with Labour’s policy since I have little idea what it is. Nor do I think that there can be revocation without a specific mandate from voters (either in a referendum or a GE to that effect).
And if getting an orderly withdrawal and a revised WA will need more time, so be it. If something is worth doing, it is worth doing well.
As far as I can see there is no Boris “deal”. What is his proposal? Where is it? The EU hasn’t received it. All that seems to be suggested is him reheating May’s proposal of December 2017, which he and the rest of the ultras comprehensively trashed at the time. Is that it?
Let us wait and see. At least he appears serious in delivering what was promised. He is the only party leader that is even publicly arguing for what you say you want - an orderly exit with a sensible deal.
So why aren’t you willing to give him any credit for this? Simple. Because this isn’t actually what you want. Your “need more time, so be it” line isn’t fooling anyone anymore. Everyone now knows this is code for continual deferral for the purpose of revocation. At least be honest with us/yourself.
If he delivers an orderly withdrawal with a proper WA and a sound basis for a long-term relationship with the EU I will revise my current opinion.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
The LDs won Westminster in the European Parliament elections with more votes than the Tories and the Brexit Party combined and welll ahead of Labour.
He has a chance, Labour would never win the Cities of London and Westminster but the LDs might, it was almost 70% Remain
The euros are utterly irrelevant to the GE, it was a mass protest on either side of the debate. He needs a huge defection of the labour vote to him, why would they when they start on 38% and Chuka deserted them and starts on 11%. Bar charts will kill him, bar charts and a vicious campaign against him by the constituency labour party.
Labour will be down to its core, Westminster and the City of London are full of Blarite, Cameroon diehard Remainer wealthy bankers, lawyers and city types who would not be seen dead voting Corbyn Labour but could certainly vote for Chuka as a LD candidate.
If so Johnson will be repeating May's journey in just two months, that took her two years.
Boris needs the election before a no-deal (or even a bad deal) Brexit lest he be held responsibility for its economic disruption. Halloween departure depended on a mid-October election. It now looks like Cummings forgot to wargame Jeremy Corbyn picking the googly as it left the bowler's hand.
Just catching up after a week walking in the Basque Pyreneees (jolly nice it was too).
I was very impressed by Sam Gyimah's comments and his well-argued reasons for making the difficult decision to defect to the LibDems, He doesn't seem to be under any illusions.
I recall you were very impressed with Cameron's renegotiation with the EU too....
Indeed so. And subsequent events have proved in spectacular fashion that I was right.
Imagine if the EU were to throw a curveball into the game now and say to Britain: you can stay, you know, and if you do, on the basis of that renegotiated agreement ........
What fun that would be!
If only for the discussions on here.
Anyway, must be off. The VAT return calls ......
If the EU did this, and offered further qualifications on free movement that might be a sustainable basis for our Remaining. There are only two credible and sustainable long-term options for the UK:
(1) A semi-detached member with lots of opt-outs (2) A semi-attached member with lots of opt-ins.
My concern is for the longer term. A lot of very angry people will be very upset if they have Brexit snatched from them.
As a strident Remainer Brexit has to be delivered, then we pick up the pieces.
Revoke is a good strategy for pinning down the hardcore Remain vote, but a hopeless strategy for government - it would be directly telling 52% of the country that democracy does not work, which would do serious structural damage to British society. Oddly, it's a retreat in ambition, from supposedly hoping to form a government to simply trying to maximise the core vote.
I'm in coalition with LibDem colleagues locally. I've more or less forgotten the Tory coalition period and accept that the LibDems have moved on. I've been pretty relaxed about the various tactical voting schemes floating around. But this policy seems to me unwise and too focused on narrow party advantage.
Most of the logic used for why we should remain naturally argues implication that we should revoke. If it is a global disaster etc then the idea we shoukd risk leaving through another vote makes no sense. So the only reason people might suggest a referendum is they think they'll win.
This is presumably why people are pulling back from a GE after demanding it, because Boris might win and it risks leaving, so they want it sorted first.
So the idea revoke is anything more than a natural progression of the argument and represents some line crossing moment I find unconvincing. Its what a majority of mps would clearly want to do but lack the courage to do.
Just catching up after a week walking in the Basque Pyreneees (jolly nice it was too).
I was very impressed by Sam Gyimah's comments and his well-argued reasons for making the difficult decision to defect to the LibDems, He doesn't seem to be under any illusions.
Very depressing to see you defending a shamless Mark Reckless style defection.
I expected better of you as a life-long Conservative.
My concern is for the longer term. A lot of very angry people will be very upset if they have Brexit snatched from them.
As a strident Remainer Brexit has to be delivered, then we pick up the pieces.
Revoke is a good strategy for pinning down the hardcore Remain vote, but a hopeless strategy for government - it would be directly telling 52% of the country that democracy does not work, which would do serious structural damage to British society. Oddly, it's a retreat in ambition, from supposedly hoping to form a government to simply trying to maximise the core vote.
I'm in coalition with LibDem colleagues locally. I've more or less forgotten the Tory coalition period and accept that the LibDems have moved on. I've been pretty relaxed about the various tactical voting schemes floating around. But this policy seems to me unwise and too focused on narrow party advantage.
Most of the logic used for why we should remain naturally argues implication that we should revoke. If it is a global disaster etc then the idea we shoukd risk leaving through another vote makes no sense. So the only reason people might suggest a referendum is they think they'll win.
This is presumably why people are pulling back from a GE after demanding it, because Boris might win and it risks leaving, so they want it sorted first.
So the idea revoke is anything more than a natural progression of the argument and represents some line crossing moment I find unconvincing. Its what a majority of mps would clearly want to do but lack the courage to do.
Rubbish. Weak nonsense from you.
Nick Palmer gets it, and puts it very well. He's clearly more intelligent than you.
Despite being a massive europhile he understands the catastrophic damage it'd do to our democracy.
My concern is for the longer term. A lot of very angry people will be very upset if they have Brexit snatched from them.
As a strident Remainer Brexit has to be delivered, then we pick up the pieces.
Revoke is a good strategy for pinning down the hardcore Remain vote, but a hopeless strategy for government - it would be directly telling 52% of the country that democracy does not work, which would do serious structural damage to British society. Oddly, it's a retreat in ambition, from supposedly hoping to form a government to simply trying to maximise the core vote.
I'm in coalition with LibDem colleagues locally. I've more or less forgotten the Tory coalition period and accept that the LibDems have moved on. I've been pretty relaxed about the various tactical voting schemes floating around. But this policy seems to me unwise and too focused on narrow party advantage.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
The LDs won Westminster in the European Parliament elections with more votes than the Tories and the Brexit Party combined and welll ahead of Labour.
He has a chance, Labour would never win the Cities of London and Westminster but the LDs might, it was almost 70% Remain
The euros are utterly irrelevant to the GE, it was a mass protest on either side of the debate. He needs a huge defection of the labour vote to him, why would they when they start on 38% and Chuka deserted them and starts on 11%. Bar charts will kill him, bar charts and a vicious campaign against him by the constituency labour party.
Labour will be down to its core, Westminster and the City of London are full of Blarite, Cameroon diehard Remainer wealthy bankers, lawyers and city types who would not be seen dead voting Corbyn Labour but could certainly vote for Chuka as a LD candidate.
Interested to read yesterday that LDs and Tories in informal talks to try and prevent an SNP Natwash of the Scottish seats. Presumably something along the lines of free run in Fife, and the 3 non shetland seats in return for free run in berwickshire, dumfriesshire and a couple of the NE seats?
They are a bunch of losers , unable to win anything without cheating, your typical unionists.
Now pacts, official or otherwise, is cheating? You're becoming your own parody...
That is quite unfair. Malcolm has been consistently and splendidly hyperbolic ever since I discovered PB.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
He couldn't stand being in a party led by a disgusting unprincipled lying toad.
A LD revival at the expense of Labour is only likely to serve Johnson. I don't see the mathematics working under FPTP for PM Swinson.
I'm sure that's true. Lots of tactical voting might remedy the situation, if people are up for it and are able to work out who the best-placed Remain-leaning candidate is. But a core vote strategy like Revoke militates against that in both directions - enthusiasts have more reason to vote LibDem even where they are clearly not going to win, and tactical Labour voters will have greater qualms.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
It is possible to be against a disorderly withdrawal without being a europhile. That may not apply to Gmiyah, given that he’s joined the Lib Dems.
But those who are against a disorderly withdrawal - what political home do they have - given that they’re gleefully being told by the likes of HYUFD and others to “fuck off”?
It is those who have turned a major political party into one that now actively supports as a matter of policy the UK’s disorderly withdrawal from an international organisation who need to be asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
I haven't told any of them to fuck off and I don't want them to.
Sam Gyimah stood for the leadership only a few months ago and fought for free speech in universities and also lower taxes. I'm astonished he's decided to defect at the Lib Dem conference and twist the knife, rather than stay and fight for his whip to be restored. I don't expect Boris Johnson to be around very long.
He should have pushed his point of view as an independent Conservative like all the others have. His stump speech this weekend, where he talked about what other Liberal Democrat values he shared, just made it look he'd secretly been one all along. It weakens his argument within the Conservative family, rather than strengthens it, and fuels a betrayal narrative.
I accept you haven’t.
Others on this forum have. I know little about Gmiyah and care even less. But the Tories are making themselves distinctly unappealing to anyone who does not think that Farage is God’s gift to the world. To my mind - as an outsider - they look and feel and talk like the Brexit party. They may as well join them.
I think it a great shame that they have done this and expelled people like Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart. It is doing themselves and the country a disservice. But there we are. I am only one voter. They don’t want my vote and they’re not going to get it.
When did you last vote Conservative then? If you did not even vote Tory in 2015 when the Tories won a majority they are highly unlikely to ever get your vote anyway
How many Tories voted Tory in the Euros this year? Not many. I did vote for them though, so I suppose that means I'm more Tory than most Tories?
Labour will one day wonder how many elections Corbyn cost them.
He has fought just the one and did well. He did so starting from a polling position that was worse than it is now. He has thus earned the right to fight the next one.
He didn't do well. He lost!
These things are relative. He did lose but we'd been told they would go massively backwards and they didnt. Of course labour are giving him another go. If BXP stir up again he actually has a chance to be largest party.
What will be interesting is how the party responds if Boris does win a majority. What will the MPs do? How will the Corbynite masses react?
He will quit. Hes old and tired, he will try and ensure a long bailey or McDonnell handover
Labour will one day wonder how many elections Corbyn cost them.
He has fought just the one and did well. He did so starting from a polling position that was worse than it is now. He has thus earned the right to fight the next one.
He didn't do well. He lost!
These things are relative. He did lose but we'd been told they would go massively backwards and they didnt. Of course labour are giving him another go. If BXP stir up again he actually has a chance to be largest party.
What will be interesting is how the party responds if Boris does win a majority. What will the MPs do? How will the Corbynite masses react?
He will quit. Hes old and tired, he will try and ensure a long bailey or McDonnell handover
But will that succeed is the critical question.
Long Bailey I think would succeed, McDonnell less likely to, he is very divisive and caustic
If we end up remaining, having voted specifically to leave, then that will only exacerbate the currently poisonous political atmosphere. Every slight grievance will be salt in an unhealing wound, with the legitimate rallying cry that 'we' voted against this and 'they' forced us to stay.
Besides, a referendum between the deal and remain should see a convincing victory for the EU.
Punchy interview on Marr from the Head Honcho of the Yellow Peril. Swinson will be no pushover during the election campaign and the Incredible Bulk and Jezza would be well advised to avoid debating with her.
Clearly it's good news for Auchentennach Fine Pies but should one put the national interest ahead of profit ?!? .... I shall seek the advice of Mrs JackW .....
The expectation was Labour poll under 30% and Tory landslide. The result was Labour poll over 40% and hung parliament.
That counts as 'did well' in my and most people's book.
If your parents expected you to get an E in an exam because you hadn't done any revision but you end up getting a D grade, would you have done well? Isn't the real judgment how well you did compared to how well you COULD have done?
I hope you aren't applying the 'soft bigotry of low expectations' to Jeremy.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
The LDs won Westminster in the European Parliament elections with more votes than the Tories and the Brexit Party combined and welll ahead of Labour.
He has a chance, Labour would never win the Cities of London and Westminster but the LDs might, it was almost 70% Remain
The euros are utterly irrelevant to the GE, it was a mass protest on either side of the debate. He needs a huge defection of the labour vote to him, why would they when they start on 38% and Chuka deserted them and starts on 11%. Bar charts will kill him, bar charts and a vicious campaign against him by the constituency labour party.
Labour will be down to its core, Westminster and the City of London are full of Blarite, Cameroon diehard Remainer wealthy bankers, lawyers and city types who would not be seen dead voting Corbyn Labour but could certainly vote for Chuka as a LD candidate.
They got 38% under Corbyn in 2017.
So lower than Labour got nationally then, as I said Cities of London and Westminster will never be won by Labour
As we approach do-or-die day, this position is going to become increasingly threadbare. If they want a deal, but one can't be formalised until November 15th, are they really still going to say they'd crash us out in chaos just for the sake of it?
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
It is possible to be against a disorderly withdrawal without being a europhile. That may not apply to Gmiyah, given that he’s joined the Lib Dems.
But those who are against a disorderly withdrawal - what political home do they have - given that they’re gleefully being told by the likes of HYUFD and others to “fuck off”?
It is those who have turned a major political party into one ts.
I haven't told any of them to fuck off and I don't want them to.
Sam Gyimah stood for the leadership only a few months ago and fought for free speech in universities and also lower taxes. I'm astonished he's decided to defect at the Lib Dem conference and twist the knife, rather than stay and fight for his whip to be restored. I don't expect Boris Johnson to be around very long.
He should have pushed his point of view as an independent Conservative like all the others have. His stump speech this weekend, where he talked about what other Liberal Democrat values he shared, just made it look he'd secretly been one all along. It weakens his argument within the Conservative family, rather than strengthens it, and fuels a betrayal narrative.
I accept you haven’t.
Others on this forum have. I know little about Gmiyah and care even less. But the Tories are making themselves distinctly unappealing to anyone who does not think that Farage is God’s gift to the world. To my mind - as an outsider - they look and feel and talk like the Brexit party. They may as well join them.
I think it a great shame that they have done this and expelled people like Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart. It is doing themselves and the country a disservice. But there we are. I am only one voter. They don’t want my vote and they’re not going to get it.
When did you last vote Conservative then? If you did not even vote Tory in 2015 when the Tories won a majority they are highly unlikely to ever get your vote anyway
How many Tories voted Tory in the Euros this year? Not many. I did vote for them though, so I suppose that means I'm more Tory than most Tories?
It means you are more Tory than Cyclefree certainly
A LD revival at the expense of Labour is only likely to serve Johnson. I don't see the mathematics working under FPTP for PM Swinson.
I'm sure that's true. Lots of tactical voting might remedy the situation, if people are up for it and are able to work out who the best-placed Remain-leaning candidate is. But a core vote strategy like Revoke militates against that in both directions - enthusiasts have more reason to vote LibDem even where they are clearly not going to win, and tactical Labour voters will have greater qualms.
But that is effectively to argue that the Lib Dems both accept as inevitable their minor third party status, and abandon a core policy they actually believe in.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
The LDs won Westminster in the European Parliament elections with more votes than the Tories and the Brexit Party combined and welll ahead of Labour.
He has a chance, Labour would never win the Cities of London and Westminster but the LDs might, it was almost 70% Remain
The euros are utterly irrelevant to the GE, it was a mass protest on either side of the debate. He needs a huge defection of the labour vote to him, why would they when they start on 38% and Chuka deserted them and starts on 11%. Bar charts will kill him, bar charts and a vicious campaign against him by the constituency labour party.
Labour will be down to its core, Westminster and the City of London are full of Blarite, Cameroon diehard Remainer wealthy bankers, lawyers and city types who would not be seen dead voting Corbyn Labour but could certainly vote for Chuka as a LD candidate.
They got 38% under Corbyn in 2017.
So lower than Labour got nationally then, as I said Cities of London and Westminster will never be won by Labour
Don't know about that. Demographic shifts in cities can be huge.
I'd love to see real political reform in the antiquated city of London though.
Just catching up after a week walking in the Basque Pyreneees (jolly nice it was too).
I was very impressed by Sam Gyimah's comments and his well-argued reasons for making the difficult decision to defect to the LibDems, He doesn't seem to be under any illusions.
Very depressing to see you defending a shamless Mark Reckless style defection.
I expected better of you as a life-long Conservative.
Very disappointing. Shame.
There are some important differences between Reckless and Gyimah's defections.
The most important of which is that the Conservative Party withdrew the whip from Gyimah before he defected to the Lib Dems. They threw him out, and are now reaping the consequences.
As an aside, looking back at those now-quaint times pre-2015, ISTR there were rumours of other defections from the Conservatives to UKIP, including one where a load of journalists decamped to ?Bristol?, only for nothing to happen. I'd love to know the story behind that, and who was intending to leave.
As we approach do-or-die day, this position is going to become increasingly threadbare. If they want a deal, but one can't be formalised until November 15th, are they really still going to say they'd crash us out in chaos just for the sake of it?
They'll say they *agreed* a new deal before 31st October, and this just amounts to formalisation of implementation.
Interested to read yesterday that LDs and Tories in informal talks to try and prevent an SNP Natwash of the Scottish seats. Presumably something along the lines of free run in Fife, and the 3 non shetland seats in return for free run in berwickshire, dumfriesshire and a couple of the NE seats?
They are a bunch of losers , unable to win anything without cheating, your typical unionists.
Now pacts, official or otherwise, is cheating? You're becoming your own parody.
That said I dont imagine there will be any such free runs. They fear a backlash too much to cooperate like that.
You may have very low standards, I will not join you. If their pretendy useless subregional parties cannot win on their own merit then they should give it up. Fixing it by vote swapping is the sign of rogues and just what you would expect from these losers. No policies no principles and no scruples, cheating lying no-marks.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
It is possible to be against a disorderly withdrawal without being a europhile. That may not apply to Gmiyah, given that he’s joined the Lib Dems.
But those who are against a disorderly withdrawal - what political home do they have - given that they’re gleefully being told by the likes of HYUFD and others to “fuck off”?
It is those who have turned a major political party into one that now actively supports as a matter of policy the UK’s disorderly withdrawal from an international organisation who need to be asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
I haven't told any of them to fuck off and I don't want them to.
Sam Gyimah stood for the leadership only a few months ago and fought for free speech in universities and also lower taxes. I'm astonished he's decided to defect at the Lib Dem conference and twist the knife, rather than stay and fight for his whip to be restored. I don't expect Boris Johnson to be around very long.
He should have pushed his point of view as an independent Conservative like all the others have. His stump speech this weekend, where he talked about what other Liberal Democrat values he shared, just made it look he'd secretly been one all along. It weakens his argument within the Conservative family, rather than strengthens it, and fuels a betrayal narrative.
I accept you haven’t.
Others on this forum have. I know little about Gmiyah and care even less. But the Tories are making themselves distinctly unappealing to anyone who does not think that Farage is God’s gift to the world. To my mind - as an outsider - they look and feel and talk like the Brexit party. They may as well join them.
I think it a great shame that they have done this and expelled people like Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart. It is doing themselves and the country a disservice. But there we are. I am only one voter. They don’t want my vote and they’re not going to get it.
When did you last vote Conservative then? If you did not even vote Tory in 2015 when the Tories won a majority they are highly unlikely to ever get your vote anyway
How many Tories voted Tory in the Euros this year? Not many. I did vote for them though, so I suppose that means I'm more Tory than most Tories?
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
The LDs won Westminster in the European Parliament elections with more votes than the Tories and the Brexit Party combined and welll ahead of Labour.
He has a chance, Labour would never win the Cities of London and Westminster but the LDs might, it was almost 70% Remain
The euros are utterly irrelevant to the GE, it was a mass protest on either side of the debate. He needs a huge defection of the labour vote to him, why would they when they start on 38% and Chuka deserted them and starts on 11%. Bar charts will kill him, bar charts and a vicious campaign against him by the constituency labour party.
Labour will be down to its core, Westminster and the City of London are full of Blarite, Cameroon diehard Remainer wealthy bankers, lawyers and city types who would not be seen dead voting Corbyn Labour but could certainly vote for Chuka as a LD candidate.
They got 38% under Corbyn in 2017.
So lower than Labour got nationally then, as I said Cities of London and Westminster will never be won by Labour
I'm not arguing it will. I'm saying they arent all going to decamp to Chuka and therefore he has no chance of overturning the 37% deficit he has to the Tories. If you disagree, fine, but the facts speak for themselves, there is ZERO history of GE support for LDs in this constituency at anything approaching challenger levels and decades of history of 50% or so Tory support with labour generally second.
Verhofstat, whom I like more than some others do as he came across well in that documentary, unfortunately doesn't realise that Empire isn't necessarily a great term to be using with British liberals.
Interested to read yesterday that LDs and Tories in informal talks to try and prevent an SNP Natwash of the Scottish seats. Presumably something along the lines of free run in Fife, and the 3 non shetland seats in return for free run in berwickshire, dumfriesshire and a couple of the NE seats?
They are a bunch of losers , unable to win anything without cheating, your typical unionists.
Now pacts, official or otherwise, is cheating? You're becoming your own parody...
That is quite unfair. Malcolm has been consistently and splendidly hyperbolic ever since I discovered PB.
Thank you Nigel, amazing the people who accepting lying and cheating is perfectly acceptable.
Labour will one day wonder how many elections Corbyn cost them.
He has fought just the one and did well. He did so starting from a polling position that was worse than it is now. He has thus earned the right to fight the next one.
He didn't do well. He lost!
These things are relative. He did lose but we'd been told they would go massively backwards and they didnt. Of course labour are giving him another go. If BXP stir up again he actually has a chance to be largest party.
What will be interesting is how the party responds if Boris does win a majority. What will the MPs do? How will the Corbynite masses react?
He will quit. Hes old and tired, he will try and ensure a long bailey or McDonnell handover
But will that succeed is the critical question.
Long Bailey I think would succeed, McDonnell less likely to, he is very divisive and caustic
Rebecca Long-Bailey lacks experience, but she’s learning. She also looks the part - smart, well presented, self-made woman from the urban north. Labour could do a lot worse.
Verhofstat, whom I like more than some others do as he came across well in that documentary, unfortunately doesn't realise that Empire isn't necessarily a great term to be using with British liberals.
Europe needs to be an empire is a particularly stupid and ignorant of history approach to take. But it is Verhofstadt
I have three problems with the current LibDem position.
1) No thought, care or accommodation with those that voted Brexit. 2) Divisive populist slogans and over simple solutions, ‘bollocks’ 3) The appearance that they are more interested in their party revival than actually solving Brexit.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
It is possible to be against a disorderly withdrawal without being a europhile. That may not apply to Gmiyah, given that he’s joined the Lib Dems.
But those who are against a disorderly withdrawal - what political home do they have - given that they’re gleefully being told by the likes of HYUFD and others to “fuck off”?
It is those who have turned a major political party into one ts.
I haven't told any of them to fuck off and I don't want them to.
Sam Gyimah stood for the leadership only a few months ago and fought for free speech in universities and also lower taxes. I'm astonished he's decided to defect at the Lib Dem conference and twist the knife, rather than stay and fight for his whip to be restored. I don't expect Boris Johnson to be around very long.
He should have pushed his point of view as an independent Conservative like all the others have. His stump speech this weekend, where he talked about what other Liberal Democrat values he shared, just made it look he'd secretly been one all along. It weakens his argument within the Conservative family, rather than strengthens it, and fuels a betrayal narrative.
I accept you haven’t.
Others on this forum have. I know little about Gmiyah and care even less. But the Tories are making themselves distinctly unappealing to anyone who does not think that Farage is God’s gift to the world. To my mind - as an outsider - they look and feel and talk like the Brexit party. They may as well join them.
I think it a great shame that they have done this and expelled people like Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart. It is doing themselves and the country a disservice. But there we are. I am only one voter. They don’t want my vote and they’re not going to get it.
When did you last vote Conservative then? If you did not even vote Tory in 2015 when the Tories won a majority they are highly unlikely to ever get your vote anyway
How many Tories voted Tory in the Euros this year? Not many. I did vote for them though, so I suppose that means I'm more Tory than most Tories?
It means you are more Tory than Cyclefree certainly
LOL. The days of the Tory party being a broad church are long-since over. Only a narrow band of true believers allowed nowadays.
It would make absolute sense for LDs and Greens to merge. The LD membership would embrace environmental policy and I think would drag in a fair % of Labour supporters. It would, in some ways be a new radical party.
I know lots of Greens (I'm in coalition with them too, come to that) and their strength and weakness is that they enjoy being a positive force for pure left-wing environmentalism without compromise. I used to wonder why they didn't join Labour after Corbyn moved Labour policy to be extremely similar, but culturally they remain quite distinct from both Labour and LibDems, both of which continue to nourish hopes of government sooner or later. The Greens are having fun, have no interest in forming a government, and see no reason to merge with anyone.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
It is possible to be against rs to “fuck off”?
It is those who have turned a major asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
I haven'te, .
Looks like sour grapes to me. I struggle to see a situation you woukd accept a defector as having made a reasonable decision.
I've accepted Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen as being poor fits for the Conservative Party. I've said Anna Soubry is a Conservative (despite me personally finding her rude and aggressive) as is Dominic Grieve. Philip Lee was no surprise to me. So your comments are inaccurate and unwarranted.
Your posts are continually disappointing. Such a shame. You've turned on a head of pin since the Brexit referendum, and now simply take an anti-Brexit or left-leaning tinge to any discussion on here.
Try thinking for yourself.
Yes, my repeated comments against Grieve, about the dishonesty of labour MPs who were against the deal, my hoping Boris surprises me and does get a good deal, acknowledgement that he has a chance at a majority, that the Tories' stance on no deal is pretty popular, that people have opposed a deal for partisan reasons, that the eu have been unreasonably obstructive, that the prorogation is probably lawful, these are all such stock anti brexit things are they?
Yes, I have changed my mind about Brexit. What of it? I have nevertheless criticised remainers and remain arguments many many times, because just because I've changed my mind does not mean I slavishly follow a particular line. Apparently that is hard for you to grasp.
As for being a disappointment for tinging left or anti brexit, when we're always discussing politics and Brexit, well words fail me. I used to be called a lefty for one thing, I should apologise to others for tinging rightwards?
As for you last comment, who do you think is doing my thinking for me?
And to match your tone, and for the record I was clearly referring to defectors to new parties which you were whinging about, very bitter they had done so, not everyone who left. You've at least now not been a crybaby about Lee, which is nice. Your lack of reading my point is very disappointing, try thinking before you condescend.
Interested to read yesterday that LDs and Tories in informal talks to try and prevent an SNP Natwash of the Scottish seats. Presumably something along the lines of free run in Fife, and the 3 non shetland seats in return for free run in berwickshire, dumfriesshire and a couple of the NE seats?
They are a bunch of losers , unable to win anything without cheating, your typical unionists.
Now pacts, official or otherwise, is cheating? You're becoming your own parody.
That said I dont imagine there will be any such free runs. They fear a backlash too much to cooperate like that.
You may have very low standards, I will not join you. If their pretendy useless subregional parties cannot win on their own merit then they should give it up. Fixing it by vote swapping is the sign of rogues and just what you would expect from these losers. No policies no principles and no scruples, cheating lying no-marks.
Morning, Malc. While on the topic of 'regional' parties, have you seen this?
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
The LDs won Westminster in the European Parliament elections with more votes than the Tories and the Brexit Party combined and welll ahead of Labour.
He has a chance, Labour would never win the Cities of London and Westminster but the LDs might, it was almost 70% Remain
The euros are utterly irrelevant to the GE, it was a mass protest on either side of the debate. He needs a huge defection of the labour vote to him, why would they when they start on 38% and Chuka deserted them and starts on 11%. Bar charts will kill him, bar charts and a vicious campaign against him by the constituency labour party.
Labour will be down to its core, Westminster and the City of London are full of Blarite, Cameroon diehard Remainer wealthy bankers, lawyers and city types who would not be seen dead voting Corbyn Labour but could certainly vote for Chuka as a LD candidate.
They got 38% under Corbyn in 2017.
So lower than Labour got nationally then, as I said Cities of London and Westminster will never be won by Labour
I'm not arguing it will. I'm saying they arent all going to decamp to Chuka and therefore he has no chance of overturning the 37% deficit he has to the Tories. If you disagree, fine, but the facts speak for themselves, there is ZERO history of GE support for LDs in this constituency at anything approaching challenger levels and decades of history of 50% or so Tory support with labour generally second.
It only takes Chuka to win 2/3 of the 70% in Westminster who voted Remain and he wins
Verhofstat, whom I like more than some others do as he came across well in that documentary, unfortunately doesn't realise that Empire isn't necessarily a great term to be using with British liberals.
The LD audience still gave him loud applause anyway
'IF THE LIB DEMS WIN A MAJORITY ARTICLE 50 GETS REVOKED' Joe Swinson
A great pitch! There are at least 17,000,000 voters out there who will like that message. Labour are all over the place and Johnson repulses all but the seriously weird.
Clever positioning by the Lib dems. They just need a few more defections and a head of steam and who knows.
If your parents expected you to get an E in an exam because you hadn't done any revision but you end up getting a D grade, would you have done well? Isn't the real judgment how well you did compared to how well you COULD have done?
I hope you aren't applying the 'soft bigotry of low expectations' to Jeremy.
OK I will work with that -
Pupil is written off as thick and lazy. Told he should not even bother sitting Maths because it will be a D at best and more likely E or F.
Pupil refuses to listen, says "No, I'm up for it", and he sits the paper. Gets a B.
Opens envelope, tells parents. "Mum! Dad! I got a B in Maths!"
What do the parents feel? That their boy done well?
I have three problems with the current LibDem position.
1) No thought, care or accommodation with those that voted Brexit. 2) Divisive populist slogans and over simple solutions, ‘bollocks’ 3) The appearance that they are more interested in their party revival than actually solving Brexit.
Yes, it's poor and a bit tawdry, perhaps reflecting Jo Swinson's inexperience. But at least they not completely bonkers like the leaderships of Labour and the Tories.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
The LDs won Westminster in the European Parliament elections with more votes than the Tories and the Brexit Party combined and welll ahead of Labour.
He has a chance, Labour would never win the Cities of London and Westminster but the LDs might, it was almost 70% Remain
The euros are utterly irrelevant to the GE, it was a mass protest on either side of the debate. He needs a huge defection of the labour vote to him, why would they when they start on 38% and Chuka deserted them and starts on 11%. Bar charts will kill him, bar charts and a vicious campaign against him by the constituency labour party.
Labour will be down to its core, Westminster and the City of London are full of Blarite, Cameroon diehard Remainer wealthy bankers, lawyers and city types who would not be seen dead voting Corbyn Labour but could certainly vote for Chuka as a LD candidate.
They got 38% under Corbyn in 2017.
So lower than Labour got nationally then, as I said Cities of London and Westminster will never be won by Labour
I'm not arguing it will. I'm saying they arent all going to decamp to Chuka and therefore he has no chance of overturning the 37% deficit he has to the Tories. If you disagree, fine, but the facts speak for themselves, there is ZERO history of GE support for LDs in this constituency at anything approaching challenger levels and decades of history of 50% or so Tory support with labour generally second.
It only takes Chuka to win 2/3 of the 70% in Westminster who voted Remain and he wins
In the EU Parliament he is seen as very odd because he really is a true believer. Even very Eu-positive people find it difficult to connect to him. He is known as the anti-Farage.
kle4 - I have a lot of time for your posts as I've been on a similar path myself. One thing I would disagree with you about is the EU being unreasonable. Like any other state they wish to defend their interests. One of their members, Ireland was terrified/appalled at the idea of a hard border on their island and pushed very hard for that to be part of the EU negotiating position. Nothing surprising in that really. The EU tactics strike me as being nothing irregular but it was us who didn't not spot the significance of the issue. TMay, who I don't think was the terrible figure many have now decided, ought to have realised that.
Interested to read yesterday that LDs and Tories in informal talks to try and prevent an SNP Natwash of the Scottish seats. Presumably something along the lines of free run in Fife, and the 3 non shetland seats in return for free run in berwickshire, dumfriesshire and a couple of the NE seats?
They are a bunch of losers , unable to win anything without cheating, your typical unionists.
Now pacts, official or otherwise, is cheating? You're becoming your own parody.
That said I dont imagine there will be any such free runs. They fear a backlash too much to cooperate like that.
You may have very low standards, I will not join you. If their pretendy useless subregional parties cannot win on their own merit then they should give it up. Fixing it by vote swapping is the sign of rogues and just what you would expect from these losers. No policies no principles and no scruples, cheating lying no-marks.
Morning, Malc. While on the topic of 'regional' parties, have you seen this?
Morning Carnyx, I had not seen it , thanks for pointing it out. Things do seem to be moving in right direction , just need to get enough people away from the ingrained opinions that they are too poor and too stupid to run their own affairs and need those absolute clowns in Westminster to spend their money for them.
I have three problems with the current LibDem position.
1) No thought, care or accommodation with those that voted Brexit. 2) Divisive populist slogans and over simple solutions, ‘bollocks’ 3) The appearance that they are more interested in their party revival than actually solving Brexit.
Yes, it's poor and a bit tawdry, perhaps reflecting Jo Swinson's inexperience. But at least they not completely bonkers like the leaderships of Labour and the Tories.
Fcuk me, it's come to a pretty pass when 'at least they're not completely bonkers' is the best the UK electoral system can cough up.
My concern is for the longer term. A lot of very angry people will be very upset if they have Brexit snatched from them.
As a strident Remainer Brexit has to be delivered, then we pick up the pieces.
Revoke is a good strategy for pinning down the hardcore Remain vote, but a hopeless strategy for government - it would be directly telling 52% of the country that democracy does not work, which would do serious structural damage to British society. Oddly, it's a retreat in ambition, from supposedly hoping to form a government to simply trying to maximise the core vote.
I'm in coalition with LibDem colleagues locally. I've more or less forgotten the Tory coalition period and accept that the LibDems have moved on. I've been pretty relaxed about the various tactical voting schemes floating around. But this policy seems to me unwise and too focused on narrow party advantage.
Most of the logic used for why we should remain naturally argues implication that we should revoke. If it is a global disaster etc then the idea we shoukd risk leaving through another vote makes no sense. So the only reason people might suggest a referendum is they think they'll win.
This is presumably why people are pulling back from a GE after demanding it, because Boris might win and it risks leaving, so they want it sorted first.
So the idea revoke is anything more than a natural progression of the argument and represents some line crossing moment I find unconvincing. Its what a majority of mps would clearly want to do but lack the courage to do.
Rubbish. Weak nonsense from you.
Nick Palmer gets it, and puts it very well. He's clearly more intelligent than you.
Despite being a massive europhile he understands the catastrophic damage it'd do to our democracy.
He definitely is more intelligent than me, I dont find that insulting in the slightest, but I wasnt intending to suggest revoke would not be damaging to our democracy. I think it will. I was intending to suggest a lot of those who seek to remain implicitly argue for revoke by their arguments , which is why doing so is a natural progression. And those who think it will stop the madness are just plain dishonest in pretending there will be no negative reaction. The point was remainers being surprised by other remainers going down the revoke route makes no sense given many arguments used.
Another of my anti brexit criticisms of remain in fact. Apparently you have trouble spotting them, although in this occasion I accept the point was not well made.
Despite being totally fine with it of course you seem to get very angry and lash out when there are Tory defections, intriguing. Nick palmer is more intelligent than me, ti be sure, but he also doesnt lash out.
Verhofstat, whom I like more than some others do as he came across well in that documentary, unfortunately doesn't realise that Empire isn't necessarily a great term to be using with British liberals.
The LD audience still gave him loud applause anyway
I have three problems with the current LibDem position.
1) No thought, care or accommodation with those that voted Brexit. 2) Divisive populist slogans and over simple solutions, ‘bollocks’ 3) The appearance that they are more interested in their party revival than actually solving Brexit.
Yes, it's poor and a bit tawdry, perhaps reflecting Jo Swinson's inexperience. But at least they not completely bonkers like the leaderships of Labour and the Tories.
Young Nabbers becomes the early front runner for the weekly winner of the "Damned With Faint Praise" accolade ....
Interested to read yesterday that LDs and Tories in informal talks to try and prevent an SNP Natwash of the Scottish seats. Presumably something along the lines of free run in Fife, and the 3 non shetland seats in return for free run in berwickshire, dumfriesshire and a couple of the NE seats?
They are a bunch of losers , unable to win anything without cheating, your typical unionists.
Now pacts, official or otherwise, is cheating? You're becoming your own parody...
That is quite unfair. Malcolm has been consistently and splendidly hyperbolic ever since I discovered PB.
Hsh, good point. Malc, dont ever change, you be you.
I have three problems with the current LibDem position.
1) No thought, care or accommodation with those that voted Brexit. 2) Divisive populist slogans and over simple solutions, ‘bollocks’ 3) The appearance that they are more interested in their party revival than actually solving Brexit.
Yes, it's poor and a bit tawdry, perhaps reflecting Jo Swinson's inexperience. But at least they not completely bonkers like the leaderships of Labour and the Tories.
Labours agonising over Brexit has IMO come up with the best policy, refine Mays deal to an EFTA like state and put it to the people in a referendum with remain as an option.
The problem is that they have no-one able to communicate it.
I have three problems with the current LibDem position.
1) No thought, care or accommodation with those that voted Brexit. 2) Divisive populist slogans and over simple solutions, ‘bollocks’ 3) The appearance that they are more interested in their party revival than actually solving Brexit.
Yes, it's poor and a bit tawdry, perhaps reflecting Jo Swinson's inexperience. But at least they not completely bonkers like the leaderships of Labour and the Tories.
Fcuk me, it's come to a pretty pass when 'at least they're not completely bonkers' is the best the UK electoral system can cough up.
If the Lib Dems are the best they can drag up then the whole system is bonkers.
Labours agonising over Brexit has IMO come up with the best policy, refine Mays deal to an EFTA like state and put it to the people in a referendum with remain as an option.
Yes, that is the best policy, but it has finally been reached (assuming it has) despite the leadership.
The most important of which is that the Conservative Party withdrew the whip from Gyimah before he defected to the Lib Dems. They threw him out, and are now reaping the consequences.
'Consequences'? I would suggest 'Benefit' would be more appropriate.
I am struggling to find many Conservatives who are lamenting the loss of Gymiah or Soubry or Woolaston...and they certainly will be providing whatever encouragement necessary for Grieve to find a home where he will be more comfortable.
The LD's are going to rue the day they started taking in the dross other parties don't want...trouble causers will be trouble causers whatever colour rosette you pin on them.
Interested to read yesterday that LDs and Tories in informal talks to try and prevent an SNP Natwash of the Scottish seats. Presumably something along the lines of free run in Fife, and the 3 non shetland seats in return for free run in berwickshire, dumfriesshire and a couple of the NE seats?
They are a bunch of losers , unable to win anything without cheating, your typical unionists.
Now pacts, official or otherwise, is cheating? You're becoming your own parody.
That said I dont imagine there will be any such free runs. They fear a backlash too much to cooperate like that.
You may have very low standards, I will not join you. If their pretendy useless subregional parties cannot win on their own merit then they should give it up. Fixing it by vote swapping is the sign of rogues and just what you would expect from these losers. No policies no principles and no scruples, cheating lying no-marks.
Morning, Malc. While on the topic of 'regional' parties, have you seen this?
Morning Carnyx, I had not seen it , thanks for pointing it out. Things do seem to be moving in right direction , just need to get enough people away from the ingrained opinions that they are too poor and too stupid to run their own affairs and need those absolute clowns in Westminster to spend their money for them.
How would they do a frictionless border between England and an EU Scotland ? Asking for an Irish friend.
kle4 - I have a lot of time for your posts as I've been on a similar path myself. One thing I would disagree with you about is the EU being unreasonable. Like any other state they wish to defend their interests. One of their members, Ireland was terrified/appalled at the idea of a hard border on their island and pushed very hard for that to be part of the EU negotiating position. Nothing surprising in that really. The EU tactics strike me as being nothing irregular but it was us who didn't not spot the significance of the issue. TMay, who I don't think was the terrible figure many have now decided, ought to have realised that.
Theres something in that, but for an institution that proudly dines on fudge , and given the stance taken might have and still could lead to a hard border, I find it difficult to accept they could not be more flexible to deliver their supposed aims here. Remaining is the leader worst option because of our own mess ups, but the eu wont find a happy member afterwards and may regret it. Leaving with a deal earlier this year would have been better for them too
Crap another post not just an anti brexit screed, where do they all come from?
If I was Swinson I’d have done the same thing. Second ref with another leave result to be ignored was unsustainable.
There’s a clear ceiling to this policy though, probably in the low to mid 20 percents. Maybe enough to get second in vote share (but not seats) depending upon timing of the election and the retreat or otherwise of Corbynmania.
It will be funny if Boris succeeds in leaving with a deal, this sort of blatant politicking by Swinson will be shown up for what it is. Plus we get to see Cyclefree writing headers shot what a brilliant PM turned out to be
@AndyJS FPT '...We don't know in advance which pollster will be most accurate for the next election, so using averages is the best thing to do IMO.'
An alternative would be to look at the Council Results over the past few months.
Normally I wouldn't set too much store by them but in the current febrile atmosphere they do have the very big advantage that they are real votes in real elections. They have been remarkably consistent - Tories steady, Labour down, LDs up.
That feels about right.
Yes something like the Tories and labour losing a few % each to Farage from 2017 and a straight lab to LD (and green) swing seems about the mark at the moment
That sounds about right for the arithmetic. The question is the geography. Which seats swing will determine which team forms the government.
I have three problems with the current LibDem position.
1) No thought, care or accommodation with those that voted Brexit. 2) Divisive populist slogans and over simple solutions, ‘bollocks’ 3) The appearance that they are more interested in their party revival than actually solving Brexit.
Yes, it's poor and a bit tawdry, perhaps reflecting Jo Swinson's inexperience. But at least they not completely bonkers like the leaderships of Labour and the Tories.
Labours agonising over Brexit has IMO come up with the best policy, refine Mays deal to an EFTA like state and put it to the people in a referendum with remain as an option.
The problem is that they have no-one able to communicate it.
Remain should not be an option. That has already been voted on and rejected. Since the Remain argument has consistently been people didn't know whst they were voting for the only acceptable second referendum should be on the type of Brexit we have. EFTA vs No Deal seems reasonable.
@AndyJS FPT '...We don't know in advance which pollster will be most accurate for the next election, so using averages is the best thing to do IMO.'
An alternative would be to look at the Council Results over the past few months.
Normally I wouldn't set too much store by them but in the current febrile atmosphere they do have the very big advantage that they are real votes in real elections. They have been remarkably consistent - Tories steady, Labour down, LDs up.
That feels about right.
Yes something like the Tories and labour losing a few % each to Farage from 2017 and a straight lab to LD (and green) swing seems about the mark at the moment
That sounds about right for the arithmetic. The question is the geography. Which seats swing will determine which team forms the government.
Yes it's how solid the northern and Midland labour vote is versus how much progress the LDs can make in the south, se and sw
Interested to read yesterday that LDs and Tories in informal talks to try and prevent an SNP Natwash of the Scottish seats. Presumably something along the lines of free run in Fife, and the 3 non shetland seats in return for free run in berwickshire, dumfriesshire and a couple of the NE seats?
They are a bunch of losers , unable to win anything without cheating, your typical unionists.
Now pacts, official or otherwise, is cheating? You're becoming your own parody.
That said I dont imagine there will be any such free runs. They fear a backlash too much to cooperate like that.
You may have very low standards, I will not join you. If their pretendy useless subregional parties cannot win on their own merit then they should give it up. Fixing it by vote swapping is the sign of rogues and just what you would expect from these losers. No policies no principles and no scruples, cheating lying no-marks.
Morning, Malc. While on the topic of 'regional' parties, have you seen this?
Morning Carnyx, I had not seen it , thanks for pointing it out. Things do seem to be moving in right direction , just need to get enough people away from the ingrained opinions that they are too poor and too stupid to run their own affairs and need those absolute clowns in Westminster to spend their money for them.
How would they do a frictionless border between England and an EU Scotland ? Asking for an Irish friend.
No need. There’s no Belfast Agreement (purportedly when it suits the argument, ignored when it does not) standing in the way...
'IF THE LIB DEMS WIN A MAJORITY ARTICLE 50 GETS REVOKED' Joe Swinson
A great pitch! There are at least 17,000,000 voters out there who will like that message. Labour are all over the place and Johnson repulses all but the seriously weird.
Clever positioning by the Lib dems. They just need a few more defections and a head of steam and who knows.
I dont think all remainers would be on board with revoke. The ones who now back leave sure, but plenty on here have suggested it is a step too far for them. But since a majority is unlikely does it play well enough for remainy credentials?
I suppose it's the one step beyond the tory policy of very loudly being ok with no deal to get BXP votes, while prioritising a deal in theory. The LDs say revoke but as a means to push referendum if they dont get a majority.
Hmm, probably still an anti Brexit post, but not particularly lefty. Call it 50 50.
I have three problems with the current LibDem position.
1) No thought, care or accommodation with those that voted Brexit. 2) Divisive populist slogans and over simple solutions, ‘bollocks’ 3) The appearance that they are more interested in their party revival than actually solving Brexit.
Yes, it's poor and a bit tawdry, perhaps reflecting Jo Swinson's inexperience. But at least they not completely bonkers like the leaderships of Labour and the Tories.
Labours agonising over Brexit has IMO come up with the best policy, refine Mays deal to an EFTA like state and put it to the people in a referendum with remain as an option.
The problem is that they have no-one able to communicate it.
Remain should not be an option. That has already been voted on and rejected. Since the Remain argument has consistently been people didn't know whst they were voting for the only acceptable second referendum should be on the type of Brexit we have. EFTA vs No Deal seems reasonable.
I appreciate your position, but some compromise is needed. Remain is justified for two reasons. The information we have learned in the past three years and flaws in the 2016 vote. A referendum offering two specific outcomes, not vague concepts is the way forward.
The most important of which is that the Conservative Party withdrew the whip from Gyimah before he defected to the Lib Dems. They threw him out, and are now reaping the consequences.
'Consequences'? I would suggest 'Benefit' would be more appropriate.
I am struggling to find many Conservatives who are lamenting the loss of Gymiah or Soubry or Woolaston...and they certainly will be providing whatever encouragement necessary for Grieve to find a home where he will be more comfortable.
The LD's are going to rue the day they started taking in the dross other parties don't want...trouble causers will be trouble causers whatever colour rosette you pin on them.
How many 'Conservatives' do you know? More particularly, how many 'Conservatives' do you know who don't have a shrine to Farage in their bedrooms?
I have three problems with the current LibDem position.
1) No thought, care or accommodation with those that voted Brexit. 2) Divisive populist slogans and over simple solutions, ‘bollocks’ 3) The appearance that they are more interested in their party revival than actually solving Brexit.
Yes, it's poor and a bit tawdry, perhaps reflecting Jo Swinson's inexperience. But at least they not completely bonkers like the leaderships of Labour and the Tories.
Labours agonising over Brexit has IMO come up with the best policy, refine Mays deal to an EFTA like state and put it to the people in a referendum with remain as an option.
The problem is that they have no-one able to communicate it.
The value of Sam Gyimah to the Lib Dems is that he tells disillusioned Tory voters, it's OK to switch to the Lib Dems.
I doubt 1 normal person in 100 could tell you who Sam Gyimah is.
In fact, 1 voter in 1000 prior to him being sacked for disloyalty.
Political anoraks for whom events like Gymiah moving are seismic don't seem to grasp that 99.9% of voters will have no idea...and won't care.
It is the really top level information battle that needs to be won, not the discussion about some no-mark who even we will have forgotten about tomorrow.
Comments
You're all mad, but have a nice day folks!
Don't accuse me of porkies. Or I'll start mining your quotes from that time.....
What will be interesting is how the party responds if Boris does win a majority. What will the MPs do? How will the Corbynite masses react?
That said I dont imagine there will be any such free runs. They fear a backlash too much to cooperate like that.
Your posts are continually disappointing. Such a shame. You've turned on a head of pin since the Brexit referendum, and now simply take an anti-Brexit or left-leaning tinge to any discussion on here.
Try thinking for yourself.
(1) A semi-detached member with lots of opt-outs
(2) A semi-attached member with lots of opt-ins.
Anything else is a political fantasy.
I might blog on this.
It's behind the paywall but Vince is writing in the FT about the possibility of a Brexit deal. Might he have been converted to being a Brexiteer?
https://www.ft.com/content/cb271c66-d623-11e9-8d46-8def889b4137
This is presumably why people are pulling back from a GE after demanding it, because Boris might win and it risks leaving, so they want it sorted first.
So the idea revoke is anything more than a natural progression of the argument and represents some line crossing moment I find unconvincing. Its what a majority of mps would clearly want to do but lack the courage to do.
I expected better of you as a life-long Conservative.
Very disappointing. Shame.
That counts as 'did well' in my and most people's book.
https://twitter.com/LADFLEG/status/1173021283547844609?s=20
Twitter has broken the golden political rule that you can think all sorts of rebarbative shit in your head but don't reveal it to the voting public.
Nick Palmer gets it, and puts it very well. He's clearly more intelligent than you.
Despite being a massive europhile he understands the catastrophic damage it'd do to our democracy.
You've surprised me, in a pleasant way.
Malcolm has been consistently and splendidly hyperbolic ever since I discovered PB.
What a weido.
If we end up remaining, having voted specifically to leave, then that will only exacerbate the currently poisonous political atmosphere. Every slight grievance will be salt in an unhealing wound, with the legitimate rallying cry that 'we' voted against this and 'they' forced us to stay.
Besides, a referendum between the deal and remain should see a convincing victory for the EU.
Clearly it's good news for Auchentennach Fine Pies but should one put the national interest ahead of profit ?!? .... I shall seek the advice of Mrs JackW .....
I hope you aren't applying the 'soft bigotry of low expectations' to Jeremy.
I'd love to see real political reform in the antiquated city of London though.
The most important of which is that the Conservative Party withdrew the whip from Gyimah before he defected to the Lib Dems. They threw him out, and are now reaping the consequences.
As an aside, looking back at those now-quaint times pre-2015, ISTR there were rumours of other defections from the Conservatives to UKIP, including one where a load of journalists decamped to ?Bristol?, only for nothing to happen. I'd love to know the story behind that, and who was intending to leave.
Boris might get away with it.
Of course, that would appear to be in contravention of the law, so...
Off to enjoy the sun and the forest with my wife and daughter, and then a brace of roast partridge later.
1) No thought, care or accommodation with those that voted Brexit.
2) Divisive populist slogans and over simple solutions, ‘bollocks’
3) The appearance that they are more interested in their party revival than actually solving Brexit.
Yes, I have changed my mind about Brexit. What of it? I have nevertheless criticised remainers and remain arguments many many times, because just because I've changed my mind does not mean I slavishly follow a particular line. Apparently that is hard for you to grasp.
As for being a disappointment for tinging left or anti brexit, when we're always discussing politics and Brexit, well words fail me. I used to be called a lefty for one thing, I should apologise to others for tinging rightwards?
As for you last comment, who do you think is doing my thinking for me?
And to match your tone, and for the record I was clearly referring to defectors to new parties which you were whinging about, very bitter they had done so, not everyone who left. You've at least now not been a crybaby about Lee, which is nice. Your lack of reading my point is very disappointing, try thinking before you condescend.
https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1173139190063796224
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49690513
A great pitch! There are at least 17,000,000 voters out there who will like that message. Labour are all over the place and Johnson repulses all but the seriously weird.
Clever positioning by the Lib dems. They just need a few more defections and a head of steam and who knows.
Pupil is written off as thick and lazy. Told he should not even bother sitting Maths because it will be a D at best and more likely E or F.
Pupil refuses to listen, says "No, I'm up for it", and he sits the paper. Gets a B.
Opens envelope, tells parents. "Mum! Dad! I got a B in Maths!"
What do the parents feel? That their boy done well?
I think so. Odd people if they don't.
In the EU Parliament he is seen as very odd because he really is a true believer. Even very Eu-positive people find it difficult to connect to him. He is known as the anti-Farage.
It could however build up a head of steam . The simple slogan , Stop The Chaos Vote To Revoke might appeal to quite a few voters .
At this stage we just don’t know what will happen.
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1173166565732311045?s=20
Another of my anti brexit criticisms of remain in fact. Apparently you have trouble spotting them, although in this occasion I accept the point was not well made.
Despite being totally fine with it of course you seem to get very angry and lash out when there are Tory defections, intriguing. Nick palmer is more intelligent than me, ti be sure, but he also doesnt lash out.
Very clear position by the Liberals.
It could yet work.
The problem is that they have no-one able to communicate it.
I am struggling to find many Conservatives who are lamenting the loss of Gymiah or Soubry or Woolaston...and they certainly will be providing whatever encouragement necessary for Grieve to find a home where he will be more comfortable.
The LD's are going to rue the day they started taking in the dross other parties don't want...trouble causers will be trouble causers whatever colour rosette you pin on them.
https://twitter.com/RopesToInfinity/status/1173161904178704384?s=20
Crap another post not just an anti brexit screed, where do they all come from?
Thank you for your words
There’s a clear ceiling to this policy though, probably in the low to mid 20 percents. Maybe enough to get second in vote share (but not seats) depending upon timing of the election and the retreat or otherwise of Corbynmania.
It will be funny if Boris succeeds in leaving with a deal, this sort of blatant politicking by Swinson will be shown up for what it is. Plus we get to see Cyclefree writing headers shot what a brilliant PM turned out to be
I suppose it's the one step beyond the tory policy of very loudly being ok with no deal to get BXP votes, while prioritising a deal in theory. The LDs say revoke but as a means to push referendum if they dont get a majority.
Hmm, probably still an anti Brexit post, but not particularly lefty. Call it 50 50.
Kind of Lefty post, profuse apologies to casino.
In fact, 1 voter in 1000 prior to him being sacked for disloyalty.
Political anoraks for whom events like Gymiah moving are seismic don't seem to grasp that 99.9% of voters will have no idea...and won't care.
It is the really top level information battle that needs to be won, not the discussion about some no-mark who even we will have forgotten about tomorrow.