Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions. I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps. And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
Are Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke careerists or "going along with insanity"?
Ken Clarke is retiring and may well vote Lib Dem. I suspect Dominic Grieve may have other reasons for not defecting yet.
Such as?
Issuing random lists of names of people who's phone messages he wants a gander at
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Is that the aim of Jo? I sort of wonder whether the Lib Dems might be trying to replace the Tories.
They are and will remain a centre left party. They are virtually identical in positioning to the main left of centre party across most of Europe.
If the LDs did rebrand as a centrist alliance per my musing, who would be the David Owen with continuity Liberal Democrat? Farron?
Who cares?
The OMRLP as its traditional for continuity centrist parties with famous leaders to come behind them in by elections. Other than that, i expect nobody, it was just a Sunday morning musing.
I keep expecting the OMRLP to announce its dissolution. With Labour and the Conservatives in the state they're in, there's just too much unofficial competition.
True enough. They could run on an original and best ticket though!
The way things are right now there would be mileage in them standing as 'the sane alternative.'
That's the point, it's all about staying in the job, not about committing to a party because you 'believe' in that party. The ability to hop about political parties such as the parade of sell swords Jo Swinson has displayed is an indictment of our politics not a championing of it. They are all Bronn rather than Brienne
I'd argue that the changes in the Conservative and Labour parties mean that the people who care most about 'staying in the job' are those who remain in a party that is fundamentally diverging from their core beliefs.
I cannot say if that's the case for Gyimah - but it wouldn't surprise me. As one example, remember that the Conservatives are now a screw-business party.
This. It does my head in when Labour's moderate defectors in particular are called careerist. You know what careerist is? Shutting up about the horrors in Labour, like having people like Milne, Murray and Murphy, not to mention the despicable Corbyn himself, at the top of the party or doing the bare minimum and registering your displeasure but campaigning to put that gang in No. 10 anyway. The same goes for Tories. I have far more respect for someone like Gymiah or Allen who stands up and says "this isn't the party I joined" than someone like Nicky Morgan or Hancock who were spoke about their values and objections to their party becoming Blue-kip, which let's be honest is what it is now, it certainly ain't a conservative or a unionist party, right up until they got a job offer.
- Wary of social, economic or constitutional change without demonstrable benefit.
That underlying philosophy has served the Conservative Party success for two centuries. It has abandoned it now. If you believe in that philosophy, the Lib Dems are the party for you now, without a shadow of a doubt.
Strangely it even applies to social change, with the Lib Dems trying to lock in a more socially liberal society against the Culture Wars backlash.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
She's busy recruiting Tory MPs. By the end of the week it's quite possible that a quarter of the Lib Dem parliamentary representation will be former Tories
They have mainly been on the Tory left, and she has recruited Labour talents like Umunna and Berger. People that stick up for Labour values on internationalism, antiracism and opposition to terrorism far better than the Labour leadership.
Agreed, but even so I'd be surprised if the pitch to unhappy Tories is "Come and build the UK's main left of centre party".
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Is that the aim of Jo? I sort of wonder whether the Lib Dems might be trying to replace the Tories.
There is a huge gap in the market for a pro business internationalist socially liberal party.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
d your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions. I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps. And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
Are Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke careerists or "going along with insanity"?
Ken Clarke is retiring and may well vote Lib Dem. I suspect Dominic Grieve may have other reasons for not defecting yet.
Such as?
Issuing random lists of names of people who's phone messages he wants a gander at
Yes, a fishing expedition based on his assumption restricted to individuals not the whole caboodle with no indication given why those individuals. If he had the balls to say what rumours he has been told and why he suspects they are true and of whom then fine, but he didn't, he named 9 people and then said 'but I'm not accusing them of anything' - classic fishing trip. You 'telling me' doesn't make it so
there has been a massive influx of new members at grass roots level too, particularly because of Brexit, but neither this nor the defecting MPs are fundamentally changing things on the ground.
I thought it would take a generation to recover from 2015 wipeout, but it seems to be a Scottish generation of only 5 years.
Some of the defectors won't survive the coming GE, but there is likely to be a lot of novice MPs too.
Is it social democrats or one nation Tories who predominate among new members?
locally to me, they seem to be people who were not strongly affiliated with any party, but who identify strongly with Remain.
I couldn't help but think that the crowd that I marched with on the #PeoplesVote marches were the sort of people that were New Labour, then Cameroons. People who want positivity in politics and inclusive social and economic policies, not the politics of hate and envy. I was encouraged to see so many. There is still hope for this country.
Most people are not swivel-eyed ideologues, I totally agree. My genuine belief is that Jeremy Corbyn is entirely distorting the entire playing field right now. His departure is absolutely key to this country’s recovery of sanity.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
It is those who have turned a major political party into one that now actively supports as a matter of policy the UK’s disorderly withdrawal from an international organisation who need to be asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
To which I say, what an odd view. Would you rather a situation where no major political party made a serious attempt to enact the result of a referendum that won more votes than any electoral outcome in British history?
Don’t you realise how dangerous it would be for politics overall, if the Tory party adopted a similar Brexit platform to either the Lib Dems (overturn the vote - aka Gyimah) or Labour (ignore it through never ending extension - aka Hunt)?
Political moderates of all stripes should be hoping beyond hope that Boris gets his Brexit deal done and over the line, or failing that executes as orderly an exit along WTO terms as possible. Because the alternative is an even harder polarisation of the electorate to the fringes, with moves likely thereafter into far more controversial territory than EU membership.
Right now it is the likes of Gyimah that I view as being the dangerous political extremists, for being so willing to dump on the democratic process because they were upset with the outcome. I hope this ex Goldman’s boy is happy with his likely short lived flirtation with the Liberal “Democrats”.
You are ignoring the obvious choice: to exit the EU on an orderly basis with a sensible Withdrawal Agreement, on a basis of goodwill and then proceed to agree a long-term workable relationship with the EU.
That is what I would expect any grown up party to do. I do not agree with Labour’s policy since I have little idea what it is. Nor do I think that there can be revocation without a specific mandate from voters (either in a referendum or a GE to that effect).
And if getting an orderly withdrawal and a revised WA will need more time, so be it. If something is worth doing, it is worth doing well.
As far as I can see there is no Boris “deal”. What is his proposal? Where is it? The EU hasn’t received it. All that seems to be suggested is him reheating May’s proposal of December 2017, which he and the rest of the ultras comprehensively trashed at the time. Is that it?
Most people are not swivel-eyed ideologues, I totally agree. My genuine belief is that Jeremy Corbyn is entirely distorting the entire playing field right now. His departure is absolutely key to this country’s recovery of sanity.
Labour will one day wonder how many elections Corbyn cost them.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Is that the aim of Jo? I sort of wonder whether the Lib Dems might be trying to replace the Tories.
They are and will remain a centre left party. They are virtually identical in positioning to the main left of centre party across most of Europe.
And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions. I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps. And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
Even today, the three main UK parties are not really very far apart on most issues. Yes, there are 'extremists' in all of them - from the right-wing Brexit-loving hang-'em-and-flog-'em Conservatives, to the Stalin-loving, terrorist-friendly and hating-our-friends Labour figures.
But take a look at the 2010 or 2015 GE. The manifestos were about relatively small differences between the three parties engendered in world views that were not a million miles apart, rather than fundamental differences.
In such a world, it is easy for voters - or even MPs - to shift from Conservative to Lib Dem, or Lib Dem to Labour, and vice versa.
I'm not quite sure what 'convictions' you think the likes of Gyimah is betraying by moving to the Lib Dems - especially when the Conservative Pary has moved itself.
Perhaps his 'convictions' were more stressed by remaining in Johnson's Conservative Party?
That's the point, it's all about staying in the job, not about committing to a party because you 'believe' in that party. The ability to hop about political parties such as the parade of sell swords Jo Swinson has displayed is an indictment of our politics not a championing of it. They are all Bronn rather than Brienne
Your ability to mind read is impressive.
The Tory party was, or aspired to be, a broad church. Is it quite evidently no such thing any more. Perhaps the attraction of the Lib Dems is the chance of making it a broad church of the centre ? Unless you believe such an exercise certain of success, it’s a bit odd to think it “all about staying in the job”.
And how is it possible to ‘believe’ in a party which has switched its position 180% on a policy over a few scant years and is now determined to expel anyone not prepared to back that switch ?
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
This should be a lesson to my party, Gyimahs local association never wanted him as their candidate and had never warmed to him as he was parachuted into a safe seat.. Most will be glad to see the back of him and its likely he will loose his seat at the next election even if chosen as the LD candidate. For me its good riddence.
Ken Clarke on the other hand I am genuinely sorry to see out of the party, I am a committed brexiteer and certainly don't agree with him on Europe but he voted for the WA and for us to leave and has been a lifelong Tory and the party owes him a great deal of respect at least.
Of the 21 who lost the whip all will are either standing down or will loose their seat at the next election... Unless anyone feels some may hang on as indy or LDs?
Like Chuka they may be rewarded with winnable seats if they join the LDs. I don't know how you can change party over essentially one issue. If I was an LD id be wary of an influx of MPs who don't share their values on many issues.
The most generous thing tht can be said of the new LibDem MPs is that they are going to require some very significant man-management skills by Swinson....
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
Gyimahs local association never wanted him as their candidate and had never warmed to him as he was parachuted into a safe seat.. Most will be glad to see the back of him and its likely he will loose his seat at the next election even if chosen as the LD candidate. For me its good riddance.
Thanks for the local perspective, likely missing from today’s coverage. Another of Cameron’s “A List” successes.
Just catching up after a week walking in the Basque Pyreneees (jolly nice it was too).
I was very impressed by Sam Gyimah's comments and his well-argued reasons for making the difficult decision to defect to the LibDems, He doesn't seem to be under any illusions.
Most people are not swivel-eyed ideologues, I totally agree. My genuine belief is that Jeremy Corbyn is entirely distorting the entire playing field right now. His departure is absolutely key to this country’s recovery of sanity.
Labour will one day wonder how many elections Corbyn cost them.
If he lives to 90 it will just be around 5 or perhaps 6.
And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions. I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever rious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps. And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
Even today, the three main UK parties are not really very far apart on most issues. Yes, there are 'extremists' in all of them - from the right-wing Brexit-loving hang-'em-and-flog-'em Conservatives, to the Stalin-loving, terrorist-friendly and hating-our-friends Labour figures.
But take a look at the 2010 or 2015 GE. The manifestos were about relatively small differences between the three parties engendered in world views that were not a million miles apart, rather than fundamental differences.
In such a world, it is easy for voters - or even MPs - to shift from Conservative to Lib Dem, or Lib Dem to Labour, and vice versa.
I'm not quite sure what 'convictions' you think the likes of Gyimah is betraying by moving to the Lib Dems - especially when the Conservative Pary has moved itself.
Perhaps his 'convictions' were more stressed by remaining in Johnson's Conservative Party?
That's the point, it's all about staying in the job, not about committing to a party because you 'believe' in that party. The ability to hop about political parties such as the parade of sell swords Jo Swinson has displayed is an indictment of our politics not a championing of it. They are all Bronn rather than Brienne
Your ability to mind read is impressive.
The Tory party was, or aspired to be, a broad church. Is it quite evidently no such thing any more. Perhaps the attraction of the Lib Dems is the chance of making it a broad church of the centre ? Unless you believe such an exercise certain of success, it’s a bit odd to think it “all about staying in the job”.
And how is it possible to ‘believe’ in a party which has switched its position 180% on a policy over a few scant years and is now determined to expel anyone not prepared to back that switch ?
I see nothing over the years that leads me to give politicians of any stripe the benefit of the doubt. As for believing, he believed in it enough 3 months ago to stand as its leader, despite it being a party committed to leaving the EU
I was mildly sceptical about Jo Swinson but so far I'm completely wrong. She's doing very well. Certainly she's been very lucky to more or less inherit the leadership at this precise moment but opportunities aren't enough. They need to be recognised and seized which so far she's doing. It's very early days but as I said in 2010 we needed a Birgitte Nyborg but we had Nick Clegg. Maybe we are luckier in 2020 ?
Certainly as a life long philosophical liberal and former long term Lib Dem member it's emotive to see the wreck of the Old Girl being raised from the seabed. I will watch with interest.
I was mildly sceptical about Jo Swinson but so far I'm completely wrong. She's doing very well. Certainly she's been very lucky to more or less inherit the leadership at this precise moment but opportunities aren't enough. They need to be recognised and seized which so far she's doing. It's very early days but as I said in 2010 we needed a Birgitte Nyborg but we had Nick Clegg. Maybe we are luckier in 2020 ?
Certainly as a life long philosophical liberal and former long term Lib Dem member it's emotive to see the wreck of the Old Girl being raised from the seabed. I will watch with interest.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
I disagree. I think it's shrewd judgement. The key thing for the Liberal Democrats is to hoover up Remain voters, a very large number of whom as we know are unreconciled to the result. Therefore, a simple message compared to the contortions and confusions of Labour cuts through nicely. Moreover, since however well they do they will be unable to form a government and will not wish to be involved in any government led by either main party given who the leaders are, there is no risk of this becoming another tuition fee albatross. They will not have to implement this pledge or break it.
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
None of this would be an issue if it were not for the fact that nobody can agree an alternative way forward. But as currently Leavers are themselves stopping us leaving, there is a fair argument that it has simply failed and it's time to call the whole thing off. Ironically of course that in itself goes some way to reinforce the Leaver message that we've been lied to about the extent of EU integration, but given the EU is divisive, rather than unpopular, that leaves a big pool to tap.
Bottom line is, right now given the shambles engulfing us a clear, simple and popular message is a good message. There are many upsides and very few potential downsides for them.
there has been a massive influx of new members at grass roots level too, particularly because of Brexit, but neither this nor the defecting MPs are fundamentally changing things on the ground.
I thought it would take a generation to recover from 2015 wipeout, but it seems to be a Scottish generation of only 5 years.
Some of the defectors won't survive the coming GE, but there is likely to be a lot of novice MPs too.
Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions. I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps. And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
Are Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke careerists or "going along with insanity"?
Ken Clarke is retiring and may well vote Lib Dem. I suspect Dominic Grieve may have other reasons for not defecting yet.
Such as?
Issuing random lists of names of people who's phone messages he wants a gander at
Yes, a fishing expedition based on his assumption restricted to individuals not the whole caboodle with no indication given why those individuals. If he had the balls to say what rumours he has been told and why he suspects they are true and of whom then fine, but he didn't, he named 9 people and then said 'but I'm not accusing them of anything' - classic fishing trip. You 'telling me' doesn't make it so
You do not know what you are talking about. You do not need to make any accusations in order to obtain material. This is pretty standard procedure whenever an authority seeks information about an issue it wishes to inquire into. It seeks material from individuals it believes may have relevant evidence. I have dealt with thousands of similar inquiries from governmental authorities in the UK and elsewhere (though they were not marked as Humble Addresses).
The amount of ignorant misinformation spread on this topic has been astounding.
That's the point, it's all about staying in the job, not about committing to a party because you 'believe' in that party. The ability to hop about political parties such as the parade of sell swords Jo Swinson has displayed is an indictment of our politics not a championing of it. They are all Bronn rather than Brienne
I'd argue that the changes in the Conservative and Labour parties mean that the people who care most about 'staying in the job' are those who remain in a party that is fundamentally diverging from their core beliefs.
I cannot say if that's the case for Gyimah - but it wouldn't surprise me. As one example, remember that the Conservatives are now a screw-business party.
This. It does my head in when Labour's moderate defectors in particular are called careerist. You know what careerist is? Shutting up about the horrors in Labour, like having people like Milne, Murray and Murphy, not to mention the despicable Corbyn himself, at the top of the party or doing the bare minimum and registering your displeasure but campaigning to put that gang in No. 10 anyway. The same goes for Tories. I have far more respect for someone like Gymiah or Allen who stands up and says "this isn't the party I joined" than someone like Nicky Morgan or Hancock who were spoke about their values and objections to their party becoming Blue-kip, which let's be honest is what it is now, it certainly ain't a conservative or a unionist party, right up until they got a job offer.
Amber Rudd’s recent history is perhaps an illustration of someone who has struggled between the desire to stay in power to influence events, and the commitment to her values. Some pretty unpleasant stuff has been said about her, but I have considerably more respect for her than, for example, Nicky Morgan.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Occipital Loberal Democrats - responsible for vision?
she has taken in a bunch of losers and turncoats , what could possibly go wrong
Labour will one day wonder how many elections Corbyn cost them.
He has fought just the one and did well. He did so starting from a polling position that was worse than it is now. He has thus earned the right to fight the next one.
Boris hasn’t got any sort of renegotiation yet. So the jury’s out as to whether his threats will turn out to be anything more than childish piss and wind appealing only to those who think that basing your political strategy on a cartoon character is some sort of act of genius.
Do you accept that if Boris delivers Brexit, he will be the political titan of our age?
Only for some people. And that only until chaos sets in and public disorder starts.
there has been a massive influx of new members at grass roots level too, particularly because of Brexit, but neither this nor the defecting MPs are fundamentally changing things on the ground.
I thought it would take a generation to recover from 2015 wipeout, but it seems to be a Scottish generation of only 5 years.
Some of the defectors won't survive the coming GE, but there is likely to be a lot of novice MPs too.
Is it social democrats or one nation Tories who predominate among new members?
locally to me, they seem to be people who were not strongly affiliated with any party, but who identify strongly with Remain.
I couldn't help but think that the crowd that I marched with on the #PeoplesVote marches were the sort of people that were New Labour, then Cameroons. People who want positivity in politics and inclusive social and economic policies, not the politics of hate and envy. I was encouraged to see so many. There is still hope for this country.
Most people are not swivel-eyed ideologues, I totally agree. My genuine belief is that Jeremy Corbyn is entirely distorting the entire playing field right now. His departure is absolutely key to this country’s recovery of sanity.
Corbyn's personal baggage is unacceptable to almost everyone who doesn't read The Morning Star. He is in my top five UK left wing utterly contemptible anti-heroes along with Scargill, Nellist, Degsy and the late Mr Benn. Morons to a man! McCluskey majes 6 by the way.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
She's busy recruiting Tory MPs. By the end of the week it's quite possible that a quarter of the Lib Dem parliamentary representation will be former Tories
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Is that the aim of Jo? I sort of wonder whether the Lib Dems might be trying to replace the Tories.
There is a huge gap in the market for a pro business internationalist socially liberal party.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Occipital Loberal Democrats - responsible for vision?
she has taken in a bunch of losers and turncoats , what could possibly go wrong
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Is that the aim of Jo? I sort of wonder whether the Lib Dems might be trying to replace the Tories.
They are and will remain a centre left party. They are virtually identical in positioning to the main left of centre party across most of Europe.
Jo Swinson is far too partisan to unite the left.
She has been working very closely and amicably with both Plaid and the Greens. There is no partisanship, only legitimate criticism to the Labour leadership, which should be shared by anyone on the left who has a moral compass.
Just catching up after a week walking in the Basque Pyreneees (jolly nice it was too).
I was very impressed by Sam Gyimah's comments and his well-argued reasons for making the difficult decision to defect to the LibDems, He doesn't seem to be under any illusions.
I recall you were very impressed with Cameron's renegotiation with the EU too....
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
.
”.
You are ignoring the obvious choice: to exit the EU on an orderly basis with a sensible Withdrawal Agreement, on a basis of goodwill and then proceed to agree a long-term workable relationship with the EU.
That is what I would expect any grown up party to do. I do not agree with Labour’s policy since I have little idea what it is. Nor do I think that there can be revocation without a specific mandate from voters (either in a referendum or a GE to that effect).
And if getting an orderly withdrawal and a revised WA will need more time, so be it. If something is worth doing, it is worth doing well.
As far as I can see there is no Boris “deal”. What is his proposal? Where is it? The EU hasn’t received it. All that seems to be suggested is him reheating May’s proposal of December 2017, which he and the rest of the ultras comprehensively trashed at the time. Is that it?
Let us wait and see. At least he appears serious in delivering what was promised. He is the only party leader that is even publicly arguing for what you say you want - an orderly exit with a sensible deal.
So why aren’t you willing to give him any credit for this? Simple. Because this isn’t actually what you want. Your “need more time, so be it” line isn’t fooling anyone anymore. Everyone now knows this is code for continual deferral for the purpose of revocation. At least be honest with us/yourself.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
It is those who have turned a major political party into one that now actively supports as a matter of policy the UK’s disorderly withdrawal from an international organisation who need to be asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
To which I say, what an odd view. Would you rather a situation where no major political party made a serious attempt to enact the result of a referendum that won more votes than any electoral outcome in British history?
Don’t you realise how dangerous it would be for politics overall, if the Tory party adopted a similar Brexit platform to either the Lib Dems (overturn the vote - aka Gyimah) or Labour (ignore it through never ending extension - aka Hunt)?
Political moderates of all stripes should be hoping beyond hope that Boris gets his Brexit deal done and over the line, or failing that executes as orderly an exit along WTO terms as possible. Because the alternative is an even harder polarisation of the electorate to the fringes, with moves likely thereafter into far more controversial territory than EU membership.
Right now it is the likes of Gyimah that I view as being the dangerous political extremists, for being so willing to dump on the democratic process because they were upset with the outcome. I hope this ex Goldman’s boy is happy with his likely short lived flirtation with the Liberal “Democrats”.
It's how you deal with failure. Do you go accept it and try to limit the damage or do you say, we made a mistake, let's correct it? Either way out is reasonable IMO. Instead, people are doubling down because they are in denial about Brexit.
Johnson literally has no workable Brexit policy. Unless talk of a new deal by October 31 is a sham and he either intends to go back to May or crash out, or extend after all.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions. I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps. And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
Are Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke careerists or "going along with insanity"?
Ken Clarke is retiring and may well vote Lib Dem. I suspect Dominic Grieve may have other reasons for not defecting yet.
Grieve will not defect. He is a Tory and will stand in his own seat as an Independent Tory. I don't know what his thoughts are but he received 36k votes, Labour 12k, LD 4k. If the LDs stood down , there would be massive tactical voting from Labour voters. He needs to hold about 15k votes from the Tories and he would win. Plus BXP if they stood would get more votes than UKIP who got 1k.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
.
”.
You are ignoring the obvious choice: to exit the EU on an orderly basis with a sensible Withdrawal Agreement, on a basis of goodwill and then proceed to agree a long-term workable relationship with the EU.
That is what I would expect any grown up party to do. I do not agree with Labour’s policy since I have little idea what it is. Nor do I think that there can be revocation without a specific mandate from voters (either in a referendum or a GE to that effect).
And if getting an orderly withdrawal and a revised WA will need more time, so be it. If something is worth doing, it is worth doing well.
As far as I can see there is no Boris “deal”. What is his proposal? Where is it? The EU hasn’t received it. All that seems to be suggested is him reheating May’s proposal of December 2017, which he and the rest of the ultras comprehensively trashed at the time. Is that it?
Let us wait and see. At least he appears serious in delivering what was promised. He is the only party leader that is even publicly arguing for what you say you want - an orderly exit with a sensible deal.
But he isn't. He's arguing for an exit on a particular date. Any question of a formal exit deal is secondary.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
What do you expect anti-no dealers who have previously been in the Conservative party to do?
They could do what Nick Boles did and sit as an independent conservative, it's a bit pathetic to go from wanting to lead your party to joining another party in a few weeks, shows a lack of commitment to what you say you believe in. The LDs have picked up a careerist. He may serve them well, time will tell
And if you want to be re-elected? The Conservatives have absolutely zero grounds to complain about this. They’ve decided to pursue a narrow tent strategy. They can expect to be pissed on by those outside the tent.
Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions. I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever he can get that job with. It's not like these defectors suddenly wake up with serious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps. And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
A careerist would have kept his head down and gone along with the insanity. There are plenty of them.
Are Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke careerists or "going along with insanity"?
Ken Clarke is retiring and may well vote Lib Dem. I suspect Dominic Grieve may have other reasons for not defecting yet.
Grieve will not defect. He is a Tory and will stand in his own seat as an Independent Tory. I don't know what his thoughts are but he received 36k votes, Labour 12k, LD 4k. If the LDs stood down , there would be massive tactical voting from Labour voters. He needs to hold about 15k votes from the Tories and he would win. Plus BXP if they stood would get more votes than UKIP who got 1k.
That would be one seat where BXP would stand down if they thought there was any chance their standing would keep Grieve as an MP.
Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions. I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever rious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps. And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
Even today, the three main UK parties are not really very far apart on most issues. Yes, there are 'extremists' in all of them - from the right-wing Brexit-loving hang-'em-and-flog-'em Conservatives, to the Stalin-loving, terrorist-friendly and hating-our-friends Labour figures.
But take a look at the 2010 or 2015 GE. The manifestos were about relatively small differences between the three parties engendered in world views that were not a million miles apart, rather than fundamental differences.
In such a world, it is easy for voters - or even MPs - to shift from Conservative to Lib Dem, or Lib Dem to Labour, and vice versa.
I'm not quite sure what 'convictions' you think the likes of Gyimah is betraying by moving to the Lib Dems - especially when the Conservative Pary has moved itself.
Perhaps his 'convictions' were more stressed by remaining in Johnson's Conservative Party?
That's the point, it's all about staying in the job, not about committing to a party because you 'believe' in that party. The ability to hop about political parties such as the parade of sell swords Jo Swinson has displayed is an indictment of our politics not a championing of it. They are all Bronn rather than Brienne
Your ability to mind read is impressive.
The Tory party was, or aspired to be, a broad church. Is it quite evidently no such thing any more. Perhaps the attraction of the Lib Dems is the chance of making it a broad church of the centre ? Unless you believe such an exercise certain of success, it’s a bit odd to think it “all about staying in the job”.
And how is it possible to ‘believe’ in a party which has switched its position 180% on a policy over a few scant years and is now determined to expel anyone not prepared to back that switch ?
I see nothing over the years that leads me to give politicians of any stripe the benefit of the doubt. As for believing, he believed in it enough 3 months ago to stand as its leader, despite it being a party committed to leaving the EU
The leadership contest was the last chance to modify its policy. It might have been a fairly desperate throw of the dice, but I don’t see any great contradiction there.
The most generous thing tht can be said of the new LibDem MPs is that they are going to require some very significant man-management skills by Swinson....
Clearly. Perhaps she should ask our Prime Minister for some tips on how not to proceed ?
Yes, hes a careerist, he wants his job, not his convictions. I agree they have little grounds for complaint but Sam has laid his cards on the table, he wants the job and he'll sit with whoever rious wood for the LD manifesto. Serious wood for their salary and the chance to continue earning that salary perhaps. And, in a nutshell, there is the problem with politicians. Job not calling for 99% of them
Even today, the three main UK parties are not really very far apart on most issues. Yes, there are 'extremists' in all of them - from the right-wing Brexit-loving hang-'em-and-flog-'em Conservatives, to the Stalin-loving, terrorist-friendly and hating-our-friends Labour figures.
But take a look at the 2010 or 2015 GE. The manifestos were about relatively small differences between the three parties engendered in world views that were not a million miles apart, rather than fundamental differences.
In such a world, it is easy for voters - or even MPs - to shift from Conservative to Lib Dem, or Lib Dem to Labour, and vice versa.
I'm not quite sure what 'convictions' you think the likes of Gyimah is betraying by moving to the Lib Dems - especially when the Conservative Pary has moved itself.
Perhaps his 'convictions' were more stressed by remaining in Johnson's Conservative Party?
That's the point, it's all about staying in the job, not about committing to a party because you 'believe' in that party. The ability to hop about political parties such as the parade of sell swords Jo Swinson has displayed is an indictment of our politics not a championing of it. They are all Bronn rather than Brienne
Your ability to mind read is impressive.
The Tory party was, or aspired to be, a broad church. Is it quite evidently no such thing any more. Perhaps the attraction of the Lib Dems is the chance of making it a broad church of the centre ? Unless you believe such an exercise certain of success, it’s a bit odd to think it “all about staying in the job”.
And how is it possible to ‘believe’ in a party which has switched its position 180% on a policy over a few scant years and is now determined to expel anyone not prepared to back that switch ?
I see nothing over the years that leads me to give politicians of any stripe the benefit of the doubt. As for believing, he believed in it enough 3 months ago to stand as its leader, despite it being a party committed to leaving the EU
The leadership contest was the last chance to modify its policy. It might have been a fairly desperate throw of the dice, but I don’t see any great contradiction there.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
I disagree. I think it's shrewd judgement. The key thing for the Liberal Democrats is to hoover up Remain voters, a very large number of whom as we know are unreconciled to the result. Therefore, a simple message compared to the contortions and confusions of Labour cuts through nicely. Moreover, since however well they do they will be unable to form a government and will not wish to be involved in any government led by either main party given who the leaders are, there is no risk of this becoming another tuition fee albatross. They will not have to implement this pledge or break it.
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
None of this would be an issue if it were not for the fact that nobody can agree an alternative way forward. But as currently Leavers are themselves stopping us leaving, there is a fair argument that it has simply failed and it's time to call the whole thing off. Ironically of course that in itself goes some way to reinforce the Leaver message that we've been lied to about the extent of EU integration, but given the EU is divisive, rather than unpopular, that leaves a big pool to tap.
Bottom line is, right now given the shambles engulfing us a clear, simple and popular message is a good message. There are many upsides and very few potential downsides for them.
My concern is for the longer term. A lot of very angry people will be very upset if they have Brexit snatched from them.
As a strident Remainer Brexit has to be delivered, then we pick up the pieces.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
She's busy recruiting Tory MPs. By the end of the week it's quite possible that a quarter of the Lib Dem parliamentary representation will be former Tories
Just catching up after a week walking in the Basque Pyreneees (jolly nice it was too).
I was very impressed by Sam Gyimah's comments and his well-argued reasons for making the difficult decision to defect to the LibDems, He doesn't seem to be under any illusions.
I recall you were very impressed with Cameron's renegotiation with the EU too....
Indeed so. And subsequent events have proved in spectacular fashion that I was right.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
.
”.
You are ignoring the obvious choice: to exit the EU on an orderly basis with a sensible Withdrawal Agreement, on a basis of goodwill and then proceed to agree a long-term workable relationship with the EU.
That is what I would expect any grown up party to do. I do not agree with Labour’s policy since I have little idea what it is. Nor do I think that there can be revocation without a specific mandate from voters (either in a referendum or a GE to that effect).
And if getting an orderly withdrawal and a revised WA will need more time, so be it. If something is worth doing, it is worth doing well.
As far as I can see there is no Boris “deal”. What is his proposal? Where is it? The EU hasn’t received it. All that seems to be suggested is him reheating May’s proposal of December 2017, which he and the rest of the ultras comprehensively trashed at the time. Is that it?
Let us wait and see. At least he appears serious in delivering what was promised. He is the only party leader that is even publicly arguing for what you say you want - an orderly exit with a sensible deal.
So why aren’t you willing to give him any credit for this? Simple. Because this isn’t actually what you want. Your “need more time, so be it” line isn’t fooling anyone anymore. Everyone now knows this is code for continual deferral for the purpose of revocation. At least be honest with us/yourself.
If he delivers an orderly withdrawal with a proper WA and a sound basis for a long-term relationship with the EU I will revise my current opinion.
I see no evidence of it now. I remain sceptical that that is what he wants or that those who have invested so many hopes in him will let him achieve it. They are salting the earth.
Don’t presume to attribute to me what I have not said and do not believe. I am well able to express my thoughts and have done so, both in numerous headers and below the line.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Is that the aim of Jo? I sort of wonder whether the Lib Dems might be trying to replace the Tories.
There is a huge gap in the market for a pro business internationalist socially liberal party.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
I disagree. I think it's shrewd judgement. The key thing for the Liberal Democrats is to hoover up Remain voters, a very large number of whom as we know are unreconciled to the result. Therefore, a simple message compared to the contortions and confusions of Labour cuts through nicely. Moreover, since however well they do they will be unable to form a government and will not wish to be involved in any government led by either main party given who the leaders are, there is no risk of this becoming another tuition
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
None of this would be an issue if it were not for the fact that nobody can agree an alternative way forward. But as currently Leavers are themselves stopping us leaving, there is a fair argument that it has simply failed and it's time to call the whole thing off. Ironically of course that in itself goes some way to reinforce the Leaver message that we've been lied to about the extent of EU integration, but given the EU is divisive, rather than unpopular, that leaves a big pool to tap.
Bottom line is, right now given the shambles engulfing us a clear, simple and popular message is a good message. There are many upsides and very few potential downsides for them.
Indeed. In fact, unlike tuition fees it's a useful position as the Lib Dem position is revoke if they form a majority government. The only plausible option for a coalition or looser arrangement is Labour - who they can argue need to be held to account to stop backsliding given their nonsensical approach to Brexit. They can then quite happily support a referendum as the most remain option because of Labour's prevarications and its Brexiteer leadership. The important thing for the Lib Dems is to win enough seats to become a partner powerful enough to demand Corbyn is ousted as the price of coalition. That would split Labour hugely. Say we'll help you end austerity, if you get rid of the genuinely dangerous and vile people running your party.
Interested to read yesterday that LDs and Tories in informal talks to try and prevent an SNP Natwash of the Scottish seats. Presumably something along the lines of free run in Fife, and the 3 non shetland seats in return for free run in berwickshire, dumfriesshire and a couple of the NE seats?
They are a bunch of losers , unable to win anything without cheating, your typical unionists.
Labour will one day wonder how many elections Corbyn cost them.
He has fought just the one and did well. He did so starting from a polling position that was worse than it is now. He has thus earned the right to fight the next one.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
I disagree. I think it's shrewd judgement. The key thing for the Liberal Democrats is to hoover up Remain voters, a very large number of whom as we know are unreconciled to the result. Therefore, a simple message compared to the contortions and confusions of Labour cuts through nicely. Moreover, since however well they do they will be unable to form a government and will not wish to be involved in any government led by either main party given who the leaders are, there is no risk of this becoming another tuition fee albatross. They will not have to implement this pledge or break it.
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
None of this would be an issue if it were not for the fact that nobody can agree an alternative way forward. But as currently Leavers are themselves stopping us leaving, there is a fair argument that it has simply failed and it's time to call the whole thing off. Ironically of course that in itself goes some way to reinforce the Leaver message that we've been lied to about the extent of EU integration, but given the EU is divisive, rather than unpopular, that leaves a big pool to tap.
Bottom line is, right now given the shambles engulfing us a clear, simple and popular message is a good message. There are many upsides and very few potential downsides for them.
My concern is for the longer term. A lot of very angry people will be very upset if they have Brexit snatched from them.
As a strident Remainer Brexit has to be delivered, then we pick up the pieces.
But the Liberal Democrats are unable to do that. What they can do is represent those who narrowly lost by continually restating that point of view, making it much more difficult to implement an extreme interpretation of that result.
It's worth pointing out this worked for the SNP under much less propitious circumstances, and the Liberal Democrats have a lower bar for success.
Just catching up after a week walking in the Basque Pyreneees (jolly nice it was too).
I was very impressed by Sam Gyimah's comments and his well-argued reasons for making the difficult decision to defect to the LibDems, He doesn't seem to be under any illusions.
I recall you were very impressed with Cameron's renegotiation with the EU too....
Indeed so. And subsequent events have proved in spectacular fashion that I was right.
Imagine if the EU were to throw a curveball into the game now and say to Britain: you can stay, you know, and if you do, on the basis of that renegotiated agreement ........
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
Labour will one day wonder how many elections Corbyn cost them.
He has fought just the one and did well. He did so starting from a polling position that was worse than it is now. He has thus earned the right to fight the next one.
He didn't do well. He lost!
He led Labour to their third-worst result since 1987.
That means he wasn't quite as big a loser as Gordon Brown who led Britain into the worst economic crisis in eighty years.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
I disagree. I think it's shrewd judgement. The key thing for the Liberal Democrats is to hoover up Remain voters, a very large number of whom as we know are unreconciled to the result. Therefore, a simple message compared to the contortions and confusions of Labour cuts through nicely. Moreover, since however well they do they will be unable to form a government and will not wish to be involved in any government led by either main party given who the leaders are, there is no risk of this becoming another tuition fee albatross. They will not have to implement this pledge or break it.
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
None of this would be an issue if it were not for the fact that nobody can agree an alternative way forward. But as currently Leavers are themselves stopping us leaving, there is a fair argument that it has simply failed and it's time to call the whole thing off. Ironically of course that in itself goes some way to reinforce the Leaver message that we've been lied to about the extent of EU integration, but given the EU is divisive, rather than unpopular, that leaves a big pool to tap.
Bottom line is, right now given the shambles engulfing us a clear, simple and popular message is a good message. There are many upsides and very few potential downsides for them.
Agreed. Also it has the advantage over a second referendum of being instant, it would make the madness stop rather than extending it for many months.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
I don’t think anyone who changes party is taken seriously in current times.
Leaving one is fine. Joining your rivals for expediency is a joke.
there has been a massive influx of new members at grass roots level too, particularly because of Brexit, but neither this nor the defecting MPs are fundamentally changing things on the ground.
I thought it would take a generation to recover from 2015 wipeout, but it seems to be a Scottish generation of only 5 years.
Some of the defectors won't survive the coming GE, but there is likely to be a lot of novice MPs too.
Is it social democrats or one nation Tories who predominate among new members?
locally to me, they seem to be people who were not strongly affiliated with any party, but who identify strongly with Remain.
I couldn't help but think that the crowd that I marched with on the #PeoplesVote marches were the sort of people that were New Labour, then Cameroons. People who want positivity in politics and inclusive social and economic policies, not the politics of hate and envy. I was encouraged to see so many. There is still hope for this country.
Most people are not swivel-eyed ideologues, I totally agree. My genuine belief is that Jeremy Corbyn is entirely distorting the entire playing field right now. His departure is absolutely key to this country’s recovery of sanity.
Yup. He makes the left and centre irrevocably divided. My fear though is that Corbyn is merely a symptom that makes the disease worse rather than its cause. He has exposed a rot in Labour, and I say this as an ex-member, that goes far deeper than his fanatical loons. No part of Labour will cone out of the Corbyn era with any credit, and it will either need to be totally reformed or replaced to remove the poison released - that had arguably been built up by past errors that are not all the fault of Corbyn and his followers.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
I don’t think anyone who changes party is taken seriously in current times.
Leaving one is fine. Joining your rivals for expediency is a joke.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
I don’t think anyone who changes party is taken seriously in current times.
Leaving one is fine. Joining your rivals for expediency is a joke.
Converts have to earn their spurs over time. But it is possible, for example Robert McLennan and Peter Hain.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Occipital Loberal Democrats - responsible for vision?
she has taken in a bunch of losers and turncoats , what could possibly go wrong
But like the Murphy's, you're not bitter 😂
Why would I worry about a few useless Tories and Lib Dems in England. I only care about getting rid of the few non SNP losers in Scotland.
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
It is possible to be against a disorderly withdrawal without being a europhile. That may not apply to Gmiyah, given that he’s joined the Lib Dems.
But those who are against a disorderly withdrawal - what political home do they have - given that they’re gleefully being told by the likes of HYUFD and others to “fuck off”?
It is those who have turned a major political party into one that now actively supports as a matter of policy the UK’s disorderly withdrawal from an international organisation who need to be asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
I haven't told any of them to fuck off and I don't want them to.
Sam Gyimah stood for the leadership only a few months ago and fought for free speech in universities and also lower taxes. I'm astonished he's decided to defect at the Lib Dem conference and twist the knife, rather than stay and fight for his whip to be restored. I don't expect Boris Johnson to be around very long.
He should have pushed his point of view as an independent Conservative like all the others have. His stump speech this weekend, where he talked about what other Liberal Democrat values he shared, just made it look he'd secretly been one all along. It weakens his argument within the Conservative family, rather than strengthens it, and fuels a betrayal narrative.
Looks like sour grapes to me. I struggle to see a situation you woukd accept a defector as having made a reasonable decision.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Is that the aim of Jo? I sort of wonder whether the Lib Dems might be trying to replace the Tories.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Is that the aim of Jo? I sort of wonder whether the Lib Dems might be trying to replace the Tories.
Well in 2017 they explicitly sought to replace Labour, i guess it's worth trying to replace the tories Instead this time.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
I disagree. I think it's shrewd judgement. The key thing for the Liberal Democrats is to hoover up Remain voters, a very large number of whom as we know are unreconciled to the result. Therefore, a simple message compared to the contortions and confusions of Labour cuts through nicely. Moreover, since however well they do they will be unable to form a government and will not wish to be involved in any government led by either main party given who the leaders are, there is no risk of this becoming another tuition
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
SNIP
Indeed. In fact, unlike tuition fees it's a useful position as the Lib Dem position is revoke if they form a majority government. The only plausible option for a coalition or looser arrangement is Labour - who they can argue need to be held to account to stop backsliding given their nonsensical approach to Brexit. They can then quite happily support a referendum as the most remain option because of Labour's prevarications and its Brexiteer leadership. The important thing for the Lib Dems is to win enough seats to become a partner powerful enough to demand Corbyn is ousted as the price of coalition. That would split Labour hugely. Say we'll help you end austerity, if you get rid of the genuinely dangerous and vile people running your party.
Why do people keep talking about Lib Dems being majority government, there is absolutely zero chance of that
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
I disagree. I think it's shrewd judgement. The key thing for the Liberal Democrats is to hoover up Remain voters, a very large number of whom as we know are unreconciled to the result. Therefore, a simple message compared to the contortions and confusions of Labour cuts through nicely. Moreover, since however well they do they will be unable to form a government and will not wish to be involved in any government led by either main party given who the leaders are, there is no risk of this becoming another tuition fee albatross. They will not have to implement this pledge or break it.
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
None of this would be an issue if it were not for the fact that nobody can agree an alternative way forward. But as currently Leavers are themselves stopping us leaving, there is a fair argument that it has simply failed and it's time to call the whole thing off. Ironically of course that in itself goes some way to reinforce the Leaver message that we've been lied to about the extent of EU integration, but given the EU is divisive, rather than unpopular, that leaves a big pool to tap.
Bottom line is, right now given the shambles engulfing us a clear, simple and popular message is a good message. There are many upsides and very few potential downsides for them.
Agreed. Also it has the advantage over a second referendum of being instant, it would make the madness stop rather than extending it for many months.
So 17.4m massively pissed off voters is your sane idea for making the madness stop? Really?
Not only large differences in percentages, but also opposite direction of travel too.
It appears the biggest impact on the next election will be the involvement of the young. If they turn out in numbers the tories majority aspirations are over. In this way the Swinson approach is ideal. Simple message and stress how important it is. Appear cool
Sam Gyimah has been pretty tedious for a long while now. The leadership tilt was just about the most egotistical and self serving political display from any MP this decade
I'm furious about Sam Gyimah this morning. Spitting teeth.
He's like a europhile Mark Reckless.
It is possible to be against a disorderly withdrawal without being a europhile. That may not apply to Gmiyah, given that he’s joined the Lib Dems.
But those who are against a disorderly withdrawal - what political home do they have - given that they’re gleefully being told by the likes of HYUFD and others to “fuck off”?
It is those who have turned a major political party into one that now actively supports as a matter of policy the UK’s disorderly withdrawal from an international organisation who need to be asking themselves some serious questions. Not those who are rightly bewildered by this odd turn of events.
I haven't told any of them to fuck off and I don't want them to.
Sam Gyimah stood for the leadership only a few months ago and fought for free speech in universities and also lower taxes. I'm astonished he's decided to defect at the Lib Dem conference and twist the knife, rather than stay and fight for his whip to be restored. I don't expect Boris Johnson to be around very long.
He should have pushed his point of view as an independent Conservative like all the others have. His stump speech this weekend, where he talked about what other Liberal Democrat values he shared, just made it look he'd secretly been one all along. It weakens his argument within the Conservative family, rather than strengthens it, and fuels a betrayal narrative.
I accept you haven’t.
Others on this forum have. I know little about Gmiyah and care even less. But the Tories are making themselves distinctly unappealing to anyone who does not think that Farage is God’s gift to the world. To my mind - as an outsider - they look and feel and talk like the Brexit party. They may as well join them.
I think it a great shame that they have done this and expelled people like Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart. It is doing themselves and the country a disservice. But there we are. I am only one voter. They don’t want my vote and they’re not going to get it.
When did you last vote Conservative then? If you did not even vote Tory in 2015 when the Tories won a majority they are highly unlikely to ever get your vote anyway
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
She's busy recruiting Tory MPs. By the end of the week it's quite possible that a quarter of the Lib Dem parliamentary representation will be former Tories
If the LDs did rebrand as a centrist alliance per my musing, who would be the David Owen with continuity Liberal Democrat? Farron?
Who cares?
The OMRLP as its traditional for continuity centrist parties with famous leaders to come behind them in by elections. Other than that, i expect nobody, it was just a Sunday morning musing.
I keep expecting the OMRLP to announce its dissolution. With Labour and the Conservatives in the state they're in, there's just too much unofficial competition.
True enough. They could run on an original and best ticket though!
The way things are right now there would be mileage in them standing as 'the sane alternative.'
That would backfire. Odds are still very good labour and the tories would get more votes, possibly way more, and do the LDs want to be in the position of acknowledging, therefore, that a majority of the country is not sane? I appreciate it was not a likely serious suggestion, but the sentiment that the big two are crazy wont prevent them getting millions more votes.
Just catching up after a week walking in the Basque Pyreneees (jolly nice it was too).
I was very impressed by Sam Gyimah's comments and his well-argued reasons for making the difficult decision to defect to the LibDems, He doesn't seem to be under any illusions.
I recall you were very impressed with Cameron's renegotiation with the EU too....
Indeed so. And subsequent events have proved in spectacular fashion that I was right.
Yes. You were spectacularly right that it would secure Cameron an overwhelming endorsement in the upcoming Referendum.
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
I disagree. I think it's shrewd judgement. The key thing for the Liberal Democrats is to hoover up Remain voters, a very large number of whom as we know are unreconciled to the result. Therefore, a simple message compared to the contortions and confusions of Labour cuts through nicely. Moreover, since however well they do they will be unable to form a government and will not wish to be involved in any government led by either main party given who the leaders are, there is no risk of this becoming another tuition fee albatross. They will not have to implement this pledge or break it.
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
None of this would be an issue if it were not for the fact that nobody can agree an alternative way forward. But as currently Leavers are themselves stopping us leaving, there is a fair argument that it has simply failed and it's time to call the whole thing off. Ironically of course that in itself goes some way to reinforce the Leaver message that we've been lied to about the extent of EU integration, but given the EU is divisive, rather than unpopular, that leaves a big pool to tap.
Bottom line is, right now given the shambles engulfing us a clear, simple and popular message is a good message. There are many upsides and very few potential downsides for them.
Agreed. Also it has the advantage over a second referendum of being instant, it would make the madness stop rather than extending it for many months.
So 17.4m massively pissed off voters is your sane idea for making the madness stop? Really?
Not to mention the proposal isn't exclusively revoke and remain its akso for many revoke and talk about this shit for years before reinstating article 50 and re commencing the dance of folly
four days of your life wasted. Spoilt rich brat goes to fancy school , gets ever more money and is a privileged twunk who would exploit his granny for more money.
Sam Gyimah also the first ex Goldman Sachs banker to become a LD MP
But far from the first from Oxford, something missing from his brief autobiography in the Observer Born in the UK, brought up in Ghana, it was a sort of childhood of hardship and difficulty,”
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Is that the aim of Jo? I sort of wonder whether the Lib Dems might be trying to replace the Tories.
They are and will remain a centre left party. They are virtually identical in positioning to the main left of centre party across most of Europe.
Jo Swinson is far too partisan to unite the left.
She has been working very closely and amicably with both Plaid and the Greens. There is no partisanship, only legitimate criticism to the Labour leadership, which should be shared by anyone on the left who has a moral compass.
This. The thing disuniting the left is Labour's Corbyn or Tories - pick a side nonsense. Well there are a lot of us on the left for whom Corbyn is equally repugnant and dangerous as Johnson. I'd love a united left - but it can't be behind someone who has enabled harassment and racism at the top of his party, sides with some of the worst dictators on the planet out of his own free will (rather than messy diplomacy) and who has shown the kind of nepotism and cronyism that would shame an old Soviet satellite state. Imagine Ian 'sick miners paid my mortgage' Lavery running a government department FFS.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
The LDs won Westminster in the European Parliament elections with more votes than the Tories and the Brexit Party combined and welll ahead of Labour.
He has a chance, Labour would never win the Cities of London and Westminster but the LDs might, it was almost 70% Remain
Jo Swinson has done an excellent job since being leader. I am looking forward to the Loberal Democrats being the main left of centre party in the UK. Corbyn has let liberals and social democrats down for far too long, woth his refusal to apologise for backing terrorists, his dishonesty over Brexit and his constant indulgence in the Labour Party's anti-Semites.
Ms Swinson has been too hasty over promising to revoke A50 without a second referendum. She has made a massive error of judgement.
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
I disagree. I think it's shrewd judgement. The key thing for the Liberal Democrats is to hoover up Remain voters, a very large number of whom as we know are unreconciled to the result. Therefore, a simple message compared to the contortions and confusions of Labour cuts through nicely. Moreover, since however well they do they will be unable to form a government and will not wish to be involved in any government led by either main party given who the leaders are, there is no risk of this becoming another tuition fee albatross. They will not have to implement this pledge or break it.
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
None of this would be an issue if it were not for the fact that nobody can agree an alternative way forward. But as currently Leavers are themselves stopping us leaving, there is a fair argument that it has simply failed and it's time to call the whole thing off. Ironically of course that in itself goes some way to reinforce the Leaver message that we've been lied to about the extent of EU integration, but given the EU is divisive, rather than unpopular, that leaves a big pool to tap.
Bottom line is, right now given the shambles engulfing us a clear, simple and popular message is a good message. There are many upsides and very few potential downsides for them.
Agreed. Also it has the advantage over a second referendum of being instant, it would make the madness stop rather than extending it for many months.
It is hilarious to me that anyone thinks revokation “makes the madness stop”. It simply polarises the electorate into more extreme directions.
As for “Leavers themselves stopping us leaving”, you know full well that’s billy bullshit. Would you care to tell us what percentage of Leave backing MPs voted against MV3 versus the percentage of Remain MPs that voted for it?
Just catching up after a week walking in the Basque Pyreneees (jolly nice it was too).
I was very impressed by Sam Gyimah's comments and his well-argued reasons for making the difficult decision to defect to the LibDems, He doesn't seem to be under any illusions.
I recall you were very impressed with Cameron's renegotiation with the EU too....
Indeed so. And subsequent events have proved in spectacular fashion that I was right.
Yes. You were spectacularly right that it would secure Cameron an overwhelming endorsement in the upcoming Referendum.
Guffaw.
It's best not to tell porkies when exchanging comments with me.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
You can bet that this video of the current Cities of London and Westminster MP will be featured in Chuka's General election campaign
My concern is for the longer term. A lot of very angry people will be very upset if they have Brexit snatched from them.
As a strident Remainer Brexit has to be delivered, then we pick up the pieces.
Revoke is a good strategy for pinning down the hardcore Remain vote, but a hopeless strategy for government - it would be directly telling 52% of the country that democracy does not work, which would do serious structural damage to British society. Oddly, it's a retreat in ambition, from supposedly hoping to form a government to simply trying to maximise the core vote.
I'm in coalition with LibDem colleagues locally. I've more or less forgotten the Tory coalition period and accept that the LibDems have moved on. I've been pretty relaxed about the various tactical voting schemes floating around. But this policy seems to me unwise and too focused on narrow party advantage.
Labour will one day wonder how many elections Corbyn cost them.
He has fought just the one and did well. He did so starting from a polling position that was worse than it is now. He has thus earned the right to fight the next one.
He didn't do well. He lost!
He led Labour to their third-worst result since 1987.
That means he wasn't quite as big a loser as Gordon Brown who led Britain into the worst economic crisis in eighty years.
...and Brown resigned. (I don't necessarily agree with your analysis by the way, but point made and understood).
The value of Sam Gyimah to the Lib Dems is that he tells disillusioned Tory voters, it's OK to switch to the Lib Dems.
He almost certainly believes he won't get much out of that bargain. But he's on his way out anyway, and I don't think most MPs go into politics for the salary, although it's nice to have while you can.
Boris hasn’t got any sort of renegotiation yet. So the jury’s out as to whether his threats will turn out to be anything more than childish piss and wind appealing only to those who think that basing your political strategy on a cartoon character is some sort of act of genius.
Do you accept that if Boris delivers Brexit, he will be the political titan of our age?
Only for some people. And that only until chaos sets in and public disorder starts.
He would still be a titan, they can certainly be destructive. I would say it is a question of impact not positive or negative achievement. At this moment I'd say not leaving at all is likely, and leaving with a deal very unlikely, so if he did see us leave with s deal it would be impressive, no matter if someone liked it or not.
Chuka looks the best bet for the LDs if they want to get into power and most Commons seats.
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
He needs a seat where he isn't starting from 11% and needs mass support from the 38% labour vote having ditched and trashed that party so massively. They will campaign viciously against him. And the Tories are on nearly 50%. He is toast.
The LDs won Westminster in the European Parliament elections with more votes than the Tories and the Brexit Party combined and welll ahead of Labour.
He has a chance, Labour would never win the Cities of London and Westminster but the LDs might, it was almost 70% Remain
The euros are utterly irrelevant to the GE, it was a mass protest on either side of the debate. He needs a huge defection of the labour vote to him, why would they when they start on 38% and Chuka deserted them and starts on 11%. Bar charts will kill him, bar charts and a vicious campaign against him by the constituency labour party.
Comments
That underlying philosophy has served the Conservative Party success for two centuries. It has abandoned it now. If you believe in that philosophy, the Lib Dems are the party for you now, without a shadow of a doubt.
Strangely it even applies to social change, with the Lib Dems trying to lock in a more socially liberal society against the Culture Wars backlash.
That is what I would expect any grown up party to do. I do not agree with Labour’s policy since I have little idea what it is. Nor do I think that there can be revocation without a specific mandate from voters (either in a referendum or a GE to that effect).
And if getting an orderly withdrawal and a revised WA will need more time, so be it. If something is worth doing, it is worth doing well.
As far as I can see there is no Boris “deal”. What is his proposal? Where is it? The EU hasn’t received it. All that seems to be suggested is him reheating May’s proposal of December 2017, which he and the rest of the ultras comprehensively trashed at the time. Is that it?
Ms Swinson will take her party with her this week and she will appear decisive compared to the hapless and confused Corbyn. However she, her party and maybe the country will I fear repent at leisure.
The Tory party was, or aspired to be, a broad church. Is it quite evidently no such thing any more.
Perhaps the attraction of the Lib Dems is the chance of making it a broad church of the centre ? Unless you believe such an exercise certain of success, it’s a bit odd to think it “all about staying in the job”.
And how is it possible to ‘believe’ in a party which has switched its position 180% on a policy over a few scant years and is now determined to expel anyone not prepared to back that switch ?
Just catching up after a week walking in the Basque Pyreneees (jolly nice it was too).
I was very impressed by Sam Gyimah's comments and his well-argued reasons for making the difficult decision to defect to the LibDems, He doesn't seem to be under any illusions.
Certainly as a life long philosophical liberal and former long term Lib Dem member it's emotive to see the wreck of the Old Girl being raised from the seabed. I will watch with interest.
Certainly as a life long philosophical liberal and former long term Lib Dem member it's emotive to see the wreck of the Old Girl being raised from the seabed. I will watch with interest.
Unless of course hypothetically Labour offered to revoke as the price of support, in which case Labour's electoral back will be broken and the Liberal Democrats can take the spoils.
None of this would be an issue if it were not for the fact that nobody can agree an alternative way forward. But as currently Leavers are themselves stopping us leaving, there is a fair argument that it has simply failed and it's time to call the whole thing off. Ironically of course that in itself goes some way to reinforce the Leaver message that we've been lied to about the extent of EU integration, but given the EU is divisive, rather than unpopular, that leaves a big pool to tap.
Bottom line is, right now given the shambles engulfing us a clear, simple and popular message is a good message. There are many upsides and very few potential downsides for them.
The amount of ignorant misinformation spread on this topic has been astounding.
So why aren’t you willing to give him any credit for this? Simple. Because this isn’t actually what you want. Your “need more time, so be it” line isn’t fooling anyone anymore. Everyone now knows this is code for continual deferral for the purpose of revocation. At least be honest with us/yourself.
Johnson literally has no workable Brexit policy. Unless talk of a new deal by October 31 is a sham and he either intends to go back to May or crash out, or extend after all.
If the LDs stood down , there would be massive tactical voting from Labour voters. He needs to hold about 15k votes from the Tories and he would win. Plus BXP if they stood would get more votes than UKIP who got 1k.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7464339/LORD-ASHCROFT-Jacob-Rees-Mogg-millions.html
As a strident Remainer Brexit has to be delivered, then we pick up the pieces.
I see no evidence of it now. I remain sceptical that that is what he wants or that those who have invested so many hopes in him will let him achieve it. They are salting the earth.
Don’t presume to attribute to me what I have not said and do not believe. I am well able to express my thoughts and have done so, both in numerous headers and below the line.
It's worth pointing out this worked for the SNP under much less propitious circumstances, and the Liberal Democrats have a lower bar for success.
What fun that would be!
If only for the discussions on here.
Anyway, must be off. The VAT return calls ......
At the moment the LDs are winning diehard Remainers but to overtake Labour and become the main challengers to the Tories they need to remove the stain of the Coalition and austerity they have with soft left voters and Chuka who was a member of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet rather than Cameron's Cabinet during the Coalition years could do that
That means he wasn't quite as big a loser as Gordon Brown who led Britain into the worst economic crisis in eighty years.
Also it has the advantage over a second referendum of being instant, it would make the madness stop rather than extending it for many months.
Leaving one is fine. Joining your rivals for expediency is a joke.
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1173152111548391427?s=20
With the 2 main parties shifting left and right, they can become THE party of the centre - and be a consistent contender for government on that basis.
The risk is loss of identity. They become not who they are but who they are not.
Guffaw.
He has a chance, Labour would never win the Cities of London and Westminster but the LDs might, it was almost 70% Remain
As for “Leavers themselves stopping us leaving”, you know full well that’s billy bullshit. Would you care to tell us what percentage of Leave backing MPs voted against MV3 versus the percentage of Remain MPs that voted for it?
https://youtu.be/Eq4ke8A-tHE
I'm in coalition with LibDem colleagues locally. I've more or less forgotten the Tory coalition period and accept that the LibDems have moved on. I've been pretty relaxed about the various tactical voting schemes floating around. But this policy seems to me unwise and too focused on narrow party advantage.
He almost certainly believes he won't get much out of that bargain. But he's on his way out anyway, and I don't think most MPs go into politics for the salary, although it's nice to have while you can.