Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
Homelessness seems to up in Maidenhead as well. Not sure it is locals though.
A homeless guy turned up on the streets in my small Hampshire market town about 6 weeks ago, and set up camp.
He’s still there and I’m not sure what if anything is being done about it.
Re the thread header: ' Private polling ' showing something different to public polling being leaked is one of the oldest tropes in the book. It's bollocks. There is no reason why publication status should alter what the data says and if it is then smell a rat.
And presumably Labour's private polling is telling them "Don't. Fucking. Think. About. An. Election....."
I've had exposure to private party polling in the past. As the questions are rarely intellectually rigourous they are mostly a collection of geriatric shoemakers
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife did some work with the homeless in Leamington. One of the problems is that a lot of towns are very strict in enforcing vagrancy laws, so that homeless people are moved on to the next town and then the next one - until they all end up in London or other big cities. Leamington is less strict than other places, so has quite a few who have been moved on from places like Oxford. This was a big problem in the 1990s, too, if I remember right. Then government action significantly reduced it. Sadly, it is not currently a priority and has not been for a while.
What REALLY strikes me about America, these days, is the poor quality of life in many cities compared to Asia and Europe.
Like, where life is now a lot better.
There are so many miserable, forgotten places in the US - all they offer is grinding, relentless, nothingness, so no wonder so many end up having huge drug problems and the crime that goes with that, as well as chronic levels of obesity. What else is there to do except get high and eat? There are a few cities I enjoy going to - and the open country is extraordinary - but to live? Not a chance - except, perhaps, the far north-east. With the exception of Japan, I don't know about Asia either - the pollution in so many places is horrible and the work/life balance is horrific, Korea perhaps most of all. Hong Kong used to be fantastic, but not so much these days. Of the places I have visited, western Europe, Canada and maybe New Zealand seem to have got it most right. But we think we haven't.
It depends where you go in NZ.
Timaru, Invercargill, Granity, or Palmerston North are as bad as any small town in the US.
Fair - the West Coast towns of the South Island are pretty bleak places. I passed through Greymouth and Westport and could not wait to get out!
I can’t believe France wants this to drag on for a few more years .
I’d take these suggestions with a pinch of salt .
At most I think they might offer 6 months . This would allow an election , a new deal and ratification .
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
This is why I hate Brexit, we’ve become the plaything of France.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
What we've done is added that to the traditional role of plaything of the U.S. The idea sold to the public was for a miraculously recharged autonomy, like the HMS Victory setting sail in the 21st Century Malaccan Strait, but life doesn't work like that.
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife did some work with the homeless in Leamington. One of the problems is that a lot of towns are very strict in enforcing vagrancy laws, so that homeless people are moved on to the next town and then the next one - until they all end up in London or other big cities. Leamington is less strict than other places, so has quite a few who have been moved on from places like Oxford. This was a big problem in the 1990s, too, if I remember right. Then government action significantly reduced it. Sadly, it is not currently a priority and has not been for a while.
What REALLY strikes me about America, these days, is the poor quality of life in many cities compared to Asia and Europe.
Like, you go to some midWest town with a gun problem, a drug problem, a race problem, a homeless problem, and a winter climate where it hits -30F. And you learn about the local Irish or Norwegian or Korean or German communities, and you think: sure, I can see why these people came here in the 19th century, but when they wake up now and look at the ice and the blood and the syringes, they must wish they were back in Dublin or Oslo or Seoul or Munich. where life is now a lot better.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
I can’t believe France wants this to drag on for a few more years .
I’d take these suggestions with a pinch of salt .
At most I think they might offer 6 months . This would allow an election , a new deal and ratification .
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
This is why I hate Brexit, we’ve become the plaything of France.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
We have been the plaything of France ever since we first tried to join the EEC. Must be why a committed Francophile like you is so in favour of Remain.
I can’t believe France wants this to drag on for a few more years .
I’d take these suggestions with a pinch of salt .
At most I think they might offer 6 months . This would allow an election , a new deal and ratification .
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
This is why I hate Brexit, we’ve become the plaything of France.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
We have been the plaything of France ever since we first tried to join the EEC. Must be why a committed Francophile like you is so in favour of Remain.
France correctly vetoed our first application for entry, we should have stayed in EFTA
I can’t believe France wants this to drag on for a few more years .
I’d take these suggestions with a pinch of salt .
At most I think they might offer 6 months . This would allow an election , a new deal and ratification .
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
This is why I hate Brexit, we’ve become the plaything of France.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
We have been the plaything of France ever since we first tried to join the EEC. Must be why a committed Francophile like you is so in favour of Remain.
A plaything of France couldn't have imposed the Single Market and eastward expansion on it, or got an enormous rebate out of it.
The UK has no prospect whatsoever of any similar level of leverage on Trump's America, however, a relationship without which Brexit is untenable.
I can’t believe France wants this to drag on for a few more years .
I’d take these suggestions with a pinch of salt .
At most I think they might offer 6 months . This would allow an election , a new deal and ratification .
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
This is why I hate Brexit, we’ve become the plaything of France.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
What we've done is added that to the traditional role of plaything of the U.S. The idea was for a miraculously recharged autonomy, like the HMS Victory setting sail in the 21st Century Malaccan Strait, but life doesn't work like that.
To be fair, the Brexiteers never expected it to be an overnight transformation. Remember Rees Mogg talking of a "fifty year" perspective.
However, I don't think the Brexiteers expected it to be this shit, so quick, either. How many of them even thought about the Irish border problem? Not many. And they certainly didn't mention it,
But what happens to us, psychologically, if we revoke (perhaps after a referendum)? No one seems to be considering this. Returning to the EU after all this will be an admission that we can NEVER Brexit, not without suicidal pain, and therefore we are in the EU project for ever. And we are no longer the sovereign state we imagined ourselves to be.
Yes this lesson will then apply to every EU country, but it will be the UK that has been brutally taught this lesson. We are not free to leave, not any more.
It will be very sobering. Perhaps it will be salutary.
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife did some work with the homeless in Leamington. One of the problems is that a lot of towns are very strict in enforcing vagrancy laws, so that homeless people are moved on to the next town and then the next one - until they all end up in London or other big cities. Leamington is less strict than other places, so has quite a few who have been moved on from places like Oxford. This was a big problem in the 1990s, too, if I remember right. Then government action significantly reduced it. Sadly, it is not currently a priority and has not been for a while.
What REALLY strikes me about America, these days, is the poor quality of life in many cities compared to Asia and Europe.
Like, you go to some midWest town with a gun problem, a drug problem, a race problem, a homeless problem, and a winter climate where it hits -30F. And you learn about the local Irish or Norwegian or Korean or German communities, and you think: sure, I can see why these people came here in the 19th century, but when they wake up now and look at the ice and the blood and the syringes, they must wish they were back in Dublin or Oslo or Seoul or Munich. where life is now a lot better.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
Not quite as our global power relied on an Empire, the USA's does not.
Plus a rising democratic, free market India is growing to join the USA and take on China
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife did some work with the homeless in Leamington. One of the problems is that a lot of towns are very strict in enforcing vagrancy laws, so that homeless people are moved on to the next town and then the next one - until they all end up in London or other big cities. Leamington is less strict than other places, so has quite a few who have been moved on from places like Oxford. This was a big problem in the 1990s, too, if I remember right. Then government action significantly reduced it. Sadly, it is not currently a priority and has not been for a while.
What REALLY strikes me about America, these days, is the poor quality of life in many cities compared to Asia and Europe.
Like, where life is now a lot better.
There are so many miserable, forgotten places in the US - all they offer t.
It depends where you go in NZ.
Timaru, Invercargill, Granity, or Palmerston North are as bad as any small town in the US.
Fair - the West Coast towns of the South Island are pretty bleak places. I passed through Greymouth and Westport and could not wait to get out!
I agree with that
West Coasters are a tough bunch. Beautiful scenery, horrific weather and the only place where insect repellent is sold by the litre.
Parts of outback Australia are pretty grim too. I have cousins in Dubbo NSW...
I can’t believe France wants this to drag on for a few more years .
I’d take these suggestions with a pinch of salt .
At most I think they might offer 6 months . This would allow an election , a new deal and ratification .
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
This is why I hate Brexit, we’ve become the plaything of France.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
We have been the plaything of France ever since we first tried to join the EEC. Must be why a committed Francophile like you is so in favour of Remain.
A plaything of France couldn't have imposed the Single Market and eastward expansion on it, or got an enormous rebate out of it.
I can’t believe France wants this to drag on for a few more years .
I’d take these suggestions with a pinch of salt .
At most I think they might offer 6 months . This would allow an election , a new deal and ratification .
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
This is why I hate Brexit, we’ve become the plaything of France.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
We have been the plaything of France ever since we first tried to join the EEC. Must be why a committed Francophile like you is so in favour of Remain.
European power and politics is currently conducted and expressed through the EU whether we like it or not. Brexit has underlined that fact and has done absolutely nothing to change it. Our influence had grown as the EU spread east (at our request), but we've now chosen to sit all that out - for better or worse. Feels a bit negative, but hey I am sure those leavers know what they're doing. :-)
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife did some work with the homeless in Leamington. One of the problems is that a lot of towns are very strict in enforcing vagrancy laws, so that homeless people are moved on to the next town and then the next one - until they all end up in London or other big cities. Leamington is less strict than other places, so has quite a few who have been moved on from places like Oxford. This was a big problem in the 1990s, too, if I remember right. Then government action significantly reduced it. Sadly, it is not currently a priority and has not been for a while.
What REALLY strikes me about America, these days, is the poor quality of life in many cities compared to Asia and Europe.
Like, you go to some midWest town with a gun problem, a drug problem, a race problem, a homeless problem, and a winter climate where it hits -30F. And you learn about the local Irish or Norwegian or Korean or German communities, and you think: sure, I can see why these people came here in the 19th century, but when they wake up now and look at the ice and the blood and the syringes, they must wish they were back in Dublin or Oslo or Seoul or Munich. where life is now a lot better.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
And this is why the EU is so important. European countries need to band together, pool their resources and stand on their own feet because the US will not always be able or willing to protect us (in the most general sense) from the Chinese and others.
In Central London you can see homeless heroin addicts shooting up in doorways. I'm not sure we're that mucg better.
We're not great. but we are very much better than the USA. San Francisco has times the number of homeless, per capita, compared to London.
California, though, attracts the homeless from all over America. Would you rather sleep on the streets of San Diego or Boise, Idaho?
Yet apparently (I've not been north of California recently) the homelessness is spread across the West Coast. It's also bad in Portland, and likewise Seattle (whose climate is very similar to London)
And you missed Venice Beach on your list of LA disaster zones. I was there a few months back and Fuck me, it's edgy. It borders on dystopian. Urban America is in serious trouble.
We did an event in Seattle a couple of years back and had homeless people wandering into it off the streets. I was not there, but colleagues say it is a pitiful place. I can't imagine anyhting is as bad as San Francisco, though. As I said before, it's the worst, the bleakest and most abject homlessness I have seen outside of India. It is genuinely jaw-dropping.
I went to Seattle with my wife last year. She wanted to go because of Frasier, Sleepless in Seattle... that sort of thing.
We’d come from Calgary and Vancouver where there aren’t *no* people on the streets, but at a low level comparable to any UK major town or city. And it was otherwise fine, clean and neat.
Seattle was like the Walking Dead. And the whole place looked tired, decaying and moribund. Hundreds (and i mean hundreds) of people chattering away to themselves, shaking with health issues, or pissed, wandering about with shopping trolleys of their possessions.
Absolute shithole. And for the first time in my life it made me feel vaguely Left-Wing.
I hated it for that alone!
Maybe left wing people have just noticed the world going to shit a bit earlier and want to try to fix it before we all find ourselves living in a neoliberal zombie apocalypse.
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife did some work with the homeless in Leamington. One of the problems is that a lot of towns are very strict in enforcing vagrancy laws, so that homeless people are moved on to the next town and then the next one - until they all end up in London or other big cities. Leamington is less strict than other places, so has quite a few who have been moved on from places like Oxford. This was a big problem in the 1990s, too, if I remember right. Then government action significantly reduced it. Sadly, it is not currently a priority and has not been for a while.
What REALLY strikes me about America, these days, is the poor quality of life in many cities compared to Asia and Europe.
Like, where life is now a lot better.
There are so many miserable, forgotten places in the US - all they offer is grinding, relentless, nothingness, so no wonder so many end up having huge drug problems and the crime that goes with that, as well as chronic levels of obesity. What else is there to do except get high and eat? There are a few cities I enjoy going to - and the open country is extraordinary - but to live? Not a chance - except, perhaps, the far north-east. With the exception of Japan, I don't know about Asia either - the pollution in so many places is horrible and the work/life balance is horrific, Korea perhaps most of all. Hong Kong used to be fantastic, but not so much these days. Of the places I have visited, western Europe, Canada and maybe New Zealand seem to have got it most right. But we think we haven't.
It depends where you go in NZ.
Timaru, Invercargill, Granity, or Palmerston North are as bad as any small town in the US.
Fair - the West Coast towns of the South Island are pretty bleak places. I passed through Greymouth and Westport and could not wait to get out!
Sandflies speak very highly of Greymouth, and congregate there in their billions.
I can’t believe France wants this to drag on for a few more years .
I’d take these suggestions with a pinch of salt .
At most I think they might offer 6 months . This would allow an election , a new deal and ratification .
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
This is why I hate Brexit, we’ve become the plaything of France.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
What we've done is added that to the traditional role of plaything of the U.S. The idea was for a miraculously recharged autonomy, like the HMS Victory setting sail in the 21st Century Malaccan Strait, but life doesn't work like that.
To be fair, the Brexiteers never expected it to be an overnight transformation. Remember Rees Mogg talking of a "fifty year" perspective.
However, I don't think the Brexiteers expected it to be this shit, so quick, either. How many of them even thought about the Irish border problem? Not many. And they certainly didn't mention it,
But what happens to us, psychologically, if we revoke (perhaps after a referendum)? No one seems to be considering this. Returning to the EU after all this will be an admission that we can NEVER Brexit, not without suicidal pain, and therefore we are in the EU project for ever. And we are no longer the sovereign state we imagined ourselves to be.
Yes this lesson will then apply to every EU country, but it will be the UK that has been brutally taught this lesson. We are not free to leave, not any more.
It will be very sobering. Perhaps it will be salutary.
Indeed, but it's the condition of nations in globalisation. Brexit is internally very incoherent and unstable, because it was carried through on a wave of revulsion against globalisation, but has been led by a group in fact embracing and seeking an even more extreme form of globalisation.
I can’t believe France wants this to drag on for a few more years .
I’d take these suggestions with a pinch of salt .
At most I think they might offer 6 months . This would allow an election , a new deal and ratification .
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
This is why I hate Brexit, we’ve become the plaything of France.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
We have been the plaything of France ever since we first tried to join the EEC. Must be why a committed Francophile like you is so in favour of Remain.
A plaything of France couldn't have imposed the Single Market and eastward expansion on it, or got an enormous rebate out of it.
We imposed nothing.
Highly debatable. Without the British input I very much doubt there would been a single market as we understand it, or at least not so quickly in the same form, and eastward expansion would also have been much slower, taking a different form. Britain has had influence.
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife did some work with the homeless in Leamington. One of the problems is that a lot of towns are very strict in enforcing vagrancy laws, so that homeless people are moved on to the next town and then the next one - until they all end up in London or other big cities. Leamington is less strict than other places, so has
What
There are so many miserable, forgotten places in the US - all they offer is grinding, relentless, nothingness, so no wonder so many end up having huge drug problems and the crime that goes with that, as well as chronic levels of obesity. What else is there to do except get high and eat? There are a few cities I enjoy going to - and the open country is extraordinary - but to live? Not a chance - except, perhaps, the far north-east. With the exception of Japan, I don't know about Asia either - the pollution in so many places is horrible and the work/life balance is horrific, Korea perhaps most of all. Hong Kong used to be fantastic, but not so much these days. Of the places I have visited, western Europe, Canada and maybe New Zealand seem to have got it most right. But we think we haven't.
You used to be much more positive about America, it's a noticeable change.
Everything you say is right, except the Asian thing. Life in east Asia for many people has got so much better. Korea can be amazing (and it has brilliant food). Taiwan is very very prosperous (yes there are threats, but still). Even poorer places like Malaysia are possibly nicer to live in than rust belt America.
This is sad for America, it is also worrying for Britain, as we seem to be following their example, from the obesity to the opioid problem. At least we haven't got the guns.
I can’t believe France wants this to drag on for a few more years .
I’d take these suggestions with a pinch of salt .
At most I think they might offer 6 months . This would allow an election , a new deal and ratification .
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
This is why I hate Brexit, we’ve become the plaything of France.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
What we've done is added that to the traditional role of plaything of the U.S. The idea was for a miraculously recharged autonomy, like the HMS Victory setting sail in the 21st Century Malaccan Strait, but life doesn't work like that.
To be fair, the Brexiteers never expected it to be an overnight transformation. Remember Rees Mogg talking of a "fifty year" perspective.
However, I don't think the Brexiteers expected it to be this shit, so quick, either. How many of them even thought about the Irish border problem? Not many. And they certainly didn't mention it,
But what happens to us, psychologically, if we revoke (perhaps after a referendum)? No one seems to be considering this. Returning to the EU after all this will be an admission that we can NEVER Brexit, not without suicidal pain, and therefore we are in the EU project for ever. And we are no longer the sovereign state we imagined ourselves to be.
Yes this lesson will then apply to every EU country, but it will be the UK that has been brutally taught this lesson. We are not free to leave, not any more.
It will be very sobering. Perhaps it will be salutary.
Going back to the EU means wearing the blue gimp suit with gold stars. Being the EU's bitch. For ever.
Remainer delight at the French idea of offering a 2 year extension may be misplaced. Here is how the Benn-Burt Bill treats that. (from the HoC Library):
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can: (a) agree to that extension, or (b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension. If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).
So this boils down to a choice between no-deal and a long (2-year) extension for the PM. It would be out of Parliament's hands.
Remainer delight at the French idea of offering a 2 year extension may be misplaced. Here is how the Benn-Burt Bill treats that. (from the HoC Library):
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can: (a) agree to that extension, or (b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension. If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).
So this boils down to a choice between no-deal and a long (2-year) extension for the PM. It would be out of Parliament's hands.
Surely there is no risk that the Commons would 'decide not to pass' such a motion? The length is an irrelevance, so long as it is long enough to allow a path toward remain.
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife did some work with the homeless in Leamington. One of the problems is that a lot of towns are very strict in enforcing vagrancy laws, so that homeless people are moved on to the next town and then the next one - until they all end up in London or other big cities. Leamington is less strict than other places, so has quite a few who have been moved on from places like Oxford. This was a big problem in the 1990s, too, if I remember right. Then government action significantly reduced it. Sadly, it is not currently a priority and has not been for a while.
What REALLY strikes me about America, these days, is the poor quality of life in many cities compared to Asia and Europe.
Like, you go to some midWest town with a gun problem, a drug problem, a race problem, a homeless problem, and a winter climate where it hits -30F. And you learn about the local Irish or Norwegian or Korean or German communities, and you think: sure, I can see why these people came here in the 19th century, but when they wake up now and look at the ice and the blood and the syringes, they must wish they were back in Dublin or Oslo or Seoul or Munich. where life is now a lot better.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
And this is why the EU is so important. European countries need to band together, pool their resources and stand on their own feet because the US will not always be able or willing to protect us (in the most general sense) from the Chinese and others.
I’d say that’s true of the West as a whole.
Geostrategically it’s become increasingly clear to me that we should build our relationship with India as well to help contain China.
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife did some work with the homeless in Leamington. One of the problems is that a lot of towns are very strict in enforcing vagrancy laws, so that homeless people are moved on to the next town and then the next one - until they all end up in London or other big cities. Leamington is less strict than other places, so has quite a few who have been moved on from places like Oxford. This was a big problem in the 1990s, too, if I remember right. Then government action significantly reduced it. Sadly, it is not currently a priority and has not been for a while.
What REALLY strikes me about America, these days, is the poor quality of life in many cities compared to Asia and Europe.
Like, you go to some midWest town with a gun problem, a drug problem, a race problem, a homeless problem, and a winter climate where it hits -30F. And you learn about the local Irish or Norwegian or Korean or German communities, and you think: sure, I can see why these people came here in the 19th century, but when they wake up now and look at the ice and the blood and the syringes, they must wish they were back in Dublin or Oslo or Seoul or Munich. where life is now a lot better.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
After a long period of hegemony, American society will need to adapt to being one Western country among many, and that won't be easy because being the city on the hill is such an important part of their self-image. I think this is one reason that Trump supporters love to paint a dystopian image of contemporary Europe, regardless of the true reality.
Remainer delight at the French idea of offering a 2 year extension may be misplaced. Here is how the Benn-Burt Bill treats that. (from the HoC Library):
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can: (a) agree to that extension, or (b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension. If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).
So this boils down to a choice between no-deal and a long (2-year) extension for the PM. It would be out of Parliament's hands.
Oooh, good catch. If an extension is offered, and Parliament agrees to it, then there is no compulsion on the PM to also agree to it.
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife did some work with the homeless in Leamington. One of the problems is that a lot of towns are very strict in enforcing vagrancy laws, so that homeless people are moved on to the next town and then the next one - until they all end up in London or other big cities. Leamington is less strict than other places, so has
What
There are so many miserable, forgotten places in the US - all they offer is grinding, relentless, nothingness, so no wonder so many end up having huge drug problems and the crime that goes with that, as well as chronic levels of obesity. What else is there to do except get high and eat? There are a few cities I enjoy going to - and the open country is extraordinary - but to live? Not a chance - except, perhaps, the far north-east. With the exception of Japan, I don't know about Asia either - the pollution in so many places is horrible and the work/life balance is horrific, Korea perhaps most of all. Hong Kong used to be fantastic, but not so much these days. Of the places I have visited, western Europe, Canada and maybe New Zealand seem to have got it most right. But we think we haven't.
You used to be much more positive about America, it's a noticeable change.
Everything you say is right, except the Asian thing. Life in east Asia for many people has got so much better. Korea can be amazing (and it has brilliant food). Taiwan is very very prosperous (yes there are threats, but still). Even poorer places like Malaysia are possibly nicer to live in than rust belt America.
This is sad for America, it is also worrying for Britain, as we seem to be following their example, from the obesity to the opioid problem. At least we haven't got the guns.
Deleted
Interesting, saddening, discussion. Vagrancy does appear to be getting worse. And it’s deeply worrying. The US is awful. Downtown Atlanta was harrowing when I visited last year. A severe example no doubt but not massively atypical I dare say.
Remainer delight at the French idea of offering a 2 year extension may be misplaced. Here is how the Benn-Burt Bill treats that. (from the HoC Library):
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can: (a) agree to that extension, or (b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension. If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).
So this boils down to a choice between no-deal and a long (2-year) extension for the PM. It would be out of Parliament's hands.
Remainer delight at the French idea of offering a 2 year extension may be misplaced. Here is how the Benn-Burt Bill treats that. (from the HoC Library):
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can: (a) agree to that extension, or (b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension. If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).
So this boils down to a choice between no-deal and a long (2-year) extension for the PM. It would be out of Parliament's hands.
Oooh, good catch. If an extension is offered, and Parliament agrees to it, then there is no compulsion on the PM to also agree to it.
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife did some work with the homeless in Leamington. One of the problems is that a lot of towns are very strict in enforcing vagrancy laws, so that homeless people are moved on to the next town and then the next one - until they all end up in London or other big cities. Leamington is less strict than other places, so has quite a few who have been moved on from places like Oxford. This was a big problem in the 1990s, too, if I remember right. Then government action significantly reduced it. Sadly, it is not currently a priority and has not been for a while.
What REALLY strikes me about America, these days, is the poor quality of life in many cities compared to Asia and Europe.
Like, you go to some midWest town with a gun problem, a drug problem, a race problem, a homeless problem, and a winter climate where it hits -30F. And you learn about the local Irish or Norwegian or Korean or German communities, and you think: sure, I can see why these people came here in the 19th century, but when they wake up now and look at the ice and the blood and the syringes, they must wish they were back in Dublin or Oslo or Seoul or Munich. where life is now a lot better.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
Not quite as our global power relied on an Empire, the USA's does not.
Plus a rising democratic, free market India is growing to join the USA and take on China
Of course the UK and USA are different countries but the 1920s represented the decade we were no longer clear sole world leaders, although you could make a case going back to the 1880s.
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
And this is why the EU is so important. European countries need to band together, pool their resources and stand on their own feet because the US will not always be able or willing to protect us (in the most general sense) from the Chinese and others.
I’d say that’s true of the West as a whole.
Geostrategically it’s become increasingly clear to me that we should build our relationship with India as well to help contain China.
I think building our relationship with Russia is more critical, because until that happens, they will always be a resentful spoiler in the European and transatlantic system. Unfortunately this requires a major change of outlook and personnel in the Russian regime first.
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. The town centre park being slowly overwhelmed by street drinkers, drug dealing, drug use, rough sleeping etc. 2. The communal hallways of dozens of attractive social housing blocks being taken over as drug dealing locations and shooting galleries. 3. The number of people in front rank mental health crisis wandering the streets often begging or raiding bins.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My wife
What
There are so many miserable, forgotten places in the US - all they offer is grinding, relentless, nothingness, so no wonder so many end up having huge drug problems and the crime that goes with that, as well as chronic levels of obesity. What else is there to do except get high and eat? There are a few cities I enjoy going to - and the open country is extraordinary - but to live? Not a chance - except, perhaps, the far north-east. With the exception of Japan, I don't know about Asia either - the pollution in so many places is horrible and the work/life balance is horrific, Korea perhaps most of all. Hong Kong used to be fantastic, but not so much these days. Of the places I have visited, western Europe, Canada and maybe New Zealand seem to have got it most right. But we think we haven't.
You used to be much more positive about America, it's a noticeable change.
Everything you say is right, except the Asian thing. Life in east Asia for many people has got so much better. Korea can be amazing (and it has brilliant food). Taiwan is very very prosperous (yes there are threats, but still). Even poorer places like Malaysia are possibly nicer to live in than rust belt America.
This is sad for America, it is also worrying for Britain, as we seem to be following their example, from the obesity to the opioid problem. At least we haven't got the guns.
Deleted
Interesting, saddening, discussion. Vagrancy does appear to be getting worse. And it’s deeply worrying. The US is awful. Downtown Atlanta was harrowing when I visited last year. A severe example no doubt but not massively atypical I dare say.
Mental health and attitudes to addictions are things we simply must get better at.
As always a job, decent education and family and friends are key.
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
It really has little to recommend it - it's really not a complex situation anymore, we're just standing in place and time to make a decision or decide what we want is not what we need. We had plenty of time. Endless short extensions are not a good idea either, but 'sorting out this mess' can be done very quickly, indeed a lack of time might encourage it.
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
What purpose does any extension serve if the EU won't reopen the WA?
An extension which reopens things at all levels would be fine - but that doesn't seem to be on the table.
If they would agree to reopen everything, then the game changes
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. Thes.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My
What REALLY strikes me about America, these days, is the poor quality of life in many cities compared to Asia and Europe.
Like, you go to some midWest town with a gun problem, a drug problem, a race problem, a homeless problem, and a winter climate where it hits -30F. And you learn about the local Irish or Norwegian or Korean or German communities, and you think: sure, I can see why these people came here in the 19th century, but when they wake up now and look at the ice and the blood and the syringes, they must wish they were back in Dublin or Oslo or Seoul or Munich. where life is now a lot better.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
Not quite as our global power relied on an Empire, the USA's does not.
Plus a rising democratic, free market India is growing to join the USA and take on China
Of course the UK and USA are different countries but the 1920s represented the decade we were no longer clear sole world leaders, although you could make a case going back to the 1880s.
I agree with your last sentence.
I remember reading an analysis of 9/11 just after it happened (I wish I could recall WHERE). The writer predicted that this would be an epochal and pivotal moment for the USA, a date that - in the future - would be seen as the inflection point where America went into long-term relative decline, and lost its hegemony.
At the time I thought it was hyperbolic, now it seems very prescient.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
And this is why the EU is so important. European countries need to band together, pool their resources and stand on their own feet because the US will not always be able or willing to protect us (in the most general sense) from the Chinese and others.
I’d say that’s true of the West as a whole.
Geostrategically it’s become increasingly clear to me that we should build our relationship with India as well to help contain China.
Yes. Britain could play a unique role as a bridge between Europe and the Commonwealth. It was a mistake to ever view us as having to choose between the two.
Instead it looks like we're going to be standing out on the sidelines expending all our energy on tearing lumps out of each other.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
And this is why the EU is so important. European countries need to band together, pool their resources and stand on their own feet because the US will not always be able or willing to protect us (in the most general sense) from the Chinese and others.
I’d say that’s true of the West as a whole.
Geostrategically it’s become increasingly clear to me that we should build our relationship with India as well to help contain China.
I think building our relationship with Russia is more critical, because until that happens, they will always be a resentful spoiler in the European and transatlantic system. Unfortunately this requires a major change of outlook and personnel in the Russian regime first.
I’d like Russia to be democratic too but they’re an also-ran and has-been in this.
India and China are the two emerging major power blocks.
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
It really has little to recommend it - it's really not a complex situation anymore, we're just standing in place and time to make a decision or decide what we want is not what we need. We had plenty of time. Endless short extensions are not a good idea either, but 'sorting out this mess' can be done very quickly, indeed a lack of time might encourage it.
Eventually we will have a binding referendum: No Deal v Deal* v Remain.
Re: Homelessness. Here in small town Leaverstan it's been the defining event of the last few years. 1. Thes.
In terms of public squalor the consensus is the town has seen nothing like it since the last of the industrial slum clearences in the '30s.
My
What REALLY strikes me about America, these days, is the poor quality of life in many cities compared to Asia and Europe.
Like, you go to some midWest town with a gun problem, a drug problem, a race problem, a homeless problem, and a winter climate where it hits -30F. And you learn about the local Irish or Norwegian or Korean or German communities, and you think: sure, I can see why these people came here in the 19th century, but when they wake up now and look at the ice and the blood and the syringes, they must wish they were back in Dublin or Oslo or Seoul or Munich. where life is now a lot better.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
Not quite as our global power relied on an Empire, the USA's does not.
Plus a rising democratic, free market India is growing to join the USA and take on China
Of course the UK and USA are different countries but the 1920s represented the decade we were no longer clear sole world leaders, although you could make a case going back to the 1880s.
I agree with your last sentence.
I remember reading an analysis of 9/11 just after it happened (I wish I could recall WHERE). The writer predicted that this would be an epochal and pivotal moment for the USA, a date that - in the future - would be seen as the inflection point where America went into long-term relative decline, and lost its hegemony.
At the time I thought it was hyperbolic, now it seems very prescient.
It’s always easier to tell with hindsight.
A large part of me wants to fast forward five years, just so I can sit down with a glass of wine and safely read about what’s going on right-now in one of Tim Shipman’s books.
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
It really has little to recommend it - it's really not a complex situation anymore, we're just standing in place and time to make a decision or decide what we want is not what we need. We had plenty of time. Endless short extensions are not a good idea either, but 'sorting out this mess' can be done very quickly, indeed a lack of time might encourage it.
Eventually we will have a binding referendum: No Deal v Deal* v Remain.
Leavers will bleat but it is the only way out.
(*The Deal - May's deal, complete with backstop).
How? You can't have anything beyond a 2 option (Yes / No) question without it being possible to game the final result,,
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
It really has little to recommend it - it's really not a complex situation anymore, we're just standing in place and time to make a decision or decide what we want is not what we need. We had plenty of time. Endless short extensions are not a good idea either, but 'sorting out this mess' can be done very quickly, indeed a lack of time might encourage it.
Eventually we will have a binding referendum: No Deal v Deal* v Remain.
Leavers will bleat but it is the only way out.
(*The Deal - May's deal, complete with backstop).
A 2nd referendum is a horrible idea, but it may be the least worst option from here. I am slowly being reconciled to it. As the one and only "democratic" means of solving this appalling puzzle.
It needs to be binary though. The government of the day must choose between deal or no deal, then that must face off against Remain.
Remainer delight at the French idea of offering a 2 year extension may be misplaced. Here is how the Benn-Burt Bill treats that. (from the HoC Library):
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can: (a) agree to that extension, or (b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension. If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).
So this boils down to a choice between no-deal and a long (2-year) extension for the PM. It would be out of Parliament's hands.
Oooh, good catch. If an extension is offered, and Parliament agrees to it, then there is no compulsion on the PM to also agree to it.
Total misreading.
Fair enough. Please explain. Preferably with reference to the bit where it says that the PM must also agree to the extension if it is offered and Parliament agrees.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
And this is why the EU is so important. European countries need to band together, pool their resources and stand on their own feet because the US will not always be able or willing to protect us (in the most general sense) from the Chinese and others.
I’d say that’s true of the West as a whole.
Geostrategically it’s become increasingly clear to me that we should build our relationship with India as well to help contain China.
I think building our relationship with Russia is more critical, because until that happens, they will always be a resentful spoiler in the European and transatlantic system. Unfortunately this requires a major change of outlook and personnel in the Russian regime first.
I’d like Russia to be democratic too but they’re an also-ran and has-been in this.
India and China are the two emerging major power blocks.
It's more about ensuring that our own European power bloc is coherent. Russia can't be a top-tier power on their own anymore, but they can do a lot to cause problems for us. (Essentially I agree with Macron's analysis.)
Remainer delight at the French idea of offering a 2 year extension may be misplaced. Here is how the Benn-Burt Bill treats that. (from the HoC Library):
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can: (a) agree to that extension, or (b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension. If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).
So this boils down to a choice between no-deal and a long (2-year) extension for the PM. It would be out of Parliament's hands.
Oooh, good catch. If an extension is offered, and Parliament agrees to it, then there is no compulsion on the PM to also agree to it.
Total misreading.
Fair enough. Please explain. Preferably with reference to the bit where it says that the PM must also agree to the extension if it is offered and Parliament agrees.
It doesn't say that.
It says the PM must agree to the EU's offer, and if he doesn't, then he MUST give Parliament the decision (and they will clearly agree to the EU offer, as the alternative will be a swift No Deal). So the extension is offered and accepted.
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
It really has little to recommend it - it's really not a complex situation anymore, we're just standing in place and time to make a decision or decide what we want is not what we need. We had plenty of time. Endless short extensions are not a good idea either, but 'sorting out this mess' can be done very quickly, indeed a lack of time might encourage it.
Eventually we will have a binding referendum: No Deal v Deal* v Remain.
Leavers will bleat but it is the only way out.
(*The Deal - May's deal, complete with backstop).
How? You can't have anything beyond a 2 option (Yes / No) question without it being possible to game the final result,,
Quite apart from that, you'd almost certainly have over half of the electorate disappointed.
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
It really has little to recommend it - it's really not a complex situation anymore, we're just standing in place and time to make a decision or decide what we want is not what we need. We had plenty of time. Endless short extensions are not a good idea either, but 'sorting out this mess' can be done very quickly, indeed a lack of time might encourage it.
Eventually we will have a binding referendum: No Deal v Deal* v Remain.
Leavers will bleat but it is the only way out.
(*The Deal - May's deal, complete with backstop).
A 2nd referendum is a horrible idea, but it may be the least worst option from here. I am slowly being reconciled to it. As the one and only "democratic" means of solving this appalling puzzle.
It needs to be binary though. The government of the day must choose between deal or no deal, then that must face off against Remain.
Acknowledging that there's no good way forward from here- only better and worse bad ways- feels necessary to move forward, from a mature statecraft point of view.
It’s a declining country. It’s like how the UK started to be from the 1920s onwards with respect to global power, and is even further ahead in decline of quality of life.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
And this is why the EU is so important. European countries need to band together, pool their resources and stand on their own feet because the US will not always be able or willing to protect us (in the most general sense) from the Chinese and others.
I’d say that’s true of the West as a whole.
Geostrategically it’s become increasingly clear to me that we should build our relationship with India as well to help contain China.
I think building our relationship with Russia is more critical, because until that happens, they will always be a resentful spoiler in the European and transatlantic system. Unfortunately this requires a major change of outlook and personnel in the Russian regime first.
I’d like Russia to be democratic too but they’re an also-ran and has-been in this.
India and China are the two emerging major power blocks.
It's more about ensuring that our own European power bloc is coherent. Russia can't be a top-tier power on their own anymore, but they can do a lot to cause problems for us. (Essentially I agree with Macron's analysis.)
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
It really has little to recommend it - it's really not a complex situation anymore, we're just standing in place and time to make a decision or decide what we want is not what we need. We had plenty of time. Endless short extensions are not a good idea either, but 'sorting out this mess' can be done very quickly, indeed a lack of time might encourage it.
Eventually we will have a binding referendum: No Deal v Deal* v Remain.
Leavers will bleat but it is the only way out.
(*The Deal - May's deal, complete with backstop).
A 2nd referendum is a horrible idea, but it may be the least worst option from here. I am slowly being reconciled to it. As the one and only "democratic" means of solving this appalling puzzle.
It needs to be binary though. The government of the day must choose between deal or no deal, then that must face off against Remain.
No it doesn't. In fact, no it mustn't be binary.
The public should vote on all three, either in a two-stage vote à la French presidential election, or by STV or similar* to achieve the same net result - namely that the winning option has a majority support.
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
It really has little to recommend it - it's really not a complex situation anymore, we're just standing in place and time to make a decision or decide what we want is not what we need. We had plenty of time. Endless short extensions are not a good idea either, but 'sorting out this mess' can be done very quickly, indeed a lack of time might encourage it.
Eventually we will have a binding referendum: No Deal v Deal* v Remain.
Leavers will bleat but it is the only way out.
(*The Deal - May's deal, complete with backstop).
A 2nd referendum is a horrible idea, but it may be the least worst option from here. I am slowly being reconciled to it. As the one and only "democratic" means of solving this appalling puzzle.
It needs to be binary though. The government of the day must choose between deal or no deal, then that must face off against Remain.
Acknowledging that there's no good way forward from here- only better and worse bad ways- feels necessary to move forward, from a mature statecraft point of view.
Tough sell politically, though.
Yes, it requires two major party leaders with maturity, intelligence, generosity and wisdom, able to set aside narrow party advantage and come together for the good of the country. Thank God we have.....
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
It really has little to recommend it - it's really not a complex situation anymore, we're just standing in place and time to make a decision or decide what we want is not what we need. We had plenty of time. Endless short extensions are not a good idea either, but 'sorting out this mess' can be done very quickly, indeed a lack of time might encourage it.
Eventually we will have a binding referendum: No Deal v Deal* v Remain.
Leavers will bleat but it is the only way out.
(*The Deal - May's deal, complete with backstop).
How? You can't have anything beyond a 2 option (Yes / No) question without it being possible to game the final result,,
I can’t believe France wants this to drag on for a few more years .
I’d take these suggestions with a pinch of salt .
At most I think they might offer 6 months . This would allow an election , a new deal and ratification .
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
This is why I hate Brexit, we’ve become the plaything of France.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
We have been the plaything of France ever since we first tried to join the EEC. Must be why a committed Francophile like you is so in favour of Remain.
A plaything of France couldn't have imposed the Single Market and eastward expansion on it, or got an enormous rebate out of it.
We imposed nothing.
Highly debatable. Without the British input I very much doubt there would been a single market as we understand it, or at least not so quickly in the same form, and eastward expansion would also have been much slower, taking a different form. Britain has had influence.
Nope we got taken for patsies. Thatchers idea was that enlargement would be in place of deepening. What actually happened was the EU happily took enlargement and then carried right on deepening just as planned. And the Single Market was on the books long before the British turned up. It was and is a fundamental foundation for the Ever Closer Union that was explicit in the original Treaty of Rome.
The two-year extension has a lot to commend it. We are nowhere near sorting this mess out and endless three-month delays just embed uncertainty into the system.
It really has little to recommend it - it's really not a complex situation anymore, we're just standing in place and time to make a decision or decide what we want is not what we need. We had plenty of time. Endless short extensions are not a good idea either, but 'sorting out this mess' can be done very quickly, indeed a lack of time might encourage it.
Eventually we will have a binding referendum: No Deal v Deal* v Remain.
Leavers will bleat but it is the only way out.
(*The Deal - May's deal, complete with backstop).
How? You can't have anything beyond a 2 option (Yes / No) question without it being possible to game the final result,,
How do you game the result with an AV approach
The only way I can see it working is if you have a simple question on the WA. after that the government can go back to the EU with a mandate to change the WA when it's roundly voted against.
Is Boris Johnson still on a perfect run of defeats?
How can he not be ? In any other universe the LoTO would be the PM by now. It's only because his name is Jeremy Corbyn that those opposed to the PM don't dare install him.
This latest defeat is particularly embarrassing for the government. Like Barnesian I thought it would have failed, it did seem a bit overeachy at casual glance
I think Grieve's motion will fail. I'd vote against it. Just move on.
Well I got that wrong! I thought Gove made some good points.
Prorogation is happening away and No Deal has been averted. It's time to move on.
Can't agree with this at all. There are some very major issues at stake.
This is madness and this has implications for any government especially Corbyn
If it does, then it should already have done in nationally exceptional circumstances such as this. Gove's invocation of the ECHR, and personal privacy, both antithetical to the Tory administration of the last nine years, were extraordinary.
Comments
A homeless guy turned up on the streets in my small Hampshire market town about 6 weeks ago, and set up camp.
He’s still there and I’m not sure what if anything is being done about it.
The French have said today they’ll both veto any Article 50 extension, and give us an absurdly long one.
I suspect they are enjoying trolling both sides.
What a national humiliation for the UK.
This is not a good thing. Love it or loathe it the USA anchors the whole Western way of life geopolitically.
The UK has no prospect whatsoever of any similar level of leverage on Trump's America, however, a relationship without which Brexit is untenable.
However, I don't think the Brexiteers expected it to be this shit, so quick, either. How many of them even thought about the Irish border problem? Not many. And they certainly didn't mention it,
But what happens to us, psychologically, if we revoke (perhaps after a referendum)? No one seems to be considering this. Returning to the EU after all this will be an admission that we can NEVER Brexit, not without suicidal pain, and therefore we are in the EU project for ever. And we are no longer the sovereign state we imagined ourselves to be.
Yes this lesson will then apply to every EU country, but it will be the UK that has been brutally taught this lesson. We are not free to leave, not any more.
It will be very sobering. Perhaps it will be salutary.
Plus a rising democratic, free market India is growing to join the USA and take on China
Parts of outback Australia are pretty grim too. I have cousins in Dubbo NSW...
It's weak.
Another HY certain prediction that was utterly wrong.
LOL.
It is an horrific prospect.
Geostrategically it’s become increasingly clear to me that we should build our relationship with India as well to help contain China.
Of course the UK and USA are different countries but the 1920s represented the decade we were no longer clear sole world leaders, although you could make a case going back to the 1880s.
I agree with your last sentence.
As always a job, decent education and family and friends are key.
An extension which reopens things at all levels would be fine - but that doesn't seem to be on the table.
If they would agree to reopen everything, then the game changes
At the time I thought it was hyperbolic, now it seems very prescient.
Instead it looks like we're going to be standing out on the sidelines expending all our energy on tearing lumps out of each other.
Whitebait pizza. Absolutely divine.
I think that's about the one saving grace of the place.
India and China are the two emerging major power blocks.
Leavers will bleat but it is the only way out.
(*The Deal - May's deal, complete with backstop).
A large part of me wants to fast forward five years, just so I can sit down with a glass of wine and safely read about what’s going on right-now in one of Tim Shipman’s books.
It needs to be binary though. The government of the day must choose between deal or no deal, then that must face off against Remain.
There is no such thing as “better off losing the election”.
Eg. Brown did not lose that election. It was a draw. He was very badly advised and allowed the Dave+Nick Rose Garden wankathon.
Brown should have had some balls. Yes, of course being pleasant to the SNP would have been difficult, but we’d have escaped this Brexit shite.
It says the PM must agree to the EU's offer, and if he doesn't, then he MUST give Parliament the decision (and they will clearly agree to the EU offer, as the alternative will be a swift No Deal). So the extension is offered and accepted.
The PM has no further say. It is quite clear.
Tough sell politically, though.
The public should vote on all three, either in a two-stage vote à la French presidential election, or by STV or similar* to achieve the same net result - namely that the winning option has a majority support.
(*IANE on voting methods)
oh.
https://twitter.com/DecLawn/status/1171099647655460864
Next UK GE - Boston and Skegness (Con Maj 16,572, Matt Warman MP)
Con 1/8
Bxp 4/1
Lab 25/1
LD 100/1
Is someone starting to assemble seat markets?
Next GE - Wimbledon (Con Maj 5,622, Stephen Hammond MP)
Con 4/7
LD 5/4
Lab 25/1
(Shadsy)
Prorogation is happening away and No Deal has been averted. It's time to move on.
Brexit is 100% self-inflicted. England needs therapy.
It seems unreasonable to break the convention ....
Grieve has taken leave of his senses and is as much a fanatic as Baker and the ERG
He is one conservative that has to be deselected
Aberdeen South
Bermondsey and Old Southwark
Bishop Auckland
Boston and Skegness
Chingford and Woodford Green
and 11 others.
If the special advisers didn't comply with a court order, why would they comply with a parliamentary order...