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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    A good Biden question wrapped in an excellent metaphor:

    "Is Joe Biden an ice cube that will melt this fall, or is Joe Biden an iceberg that will carry him all the way to November?”
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/09/joe-biden-frontrunner-implode-2020-1484120
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:



    How does it save him, though? It will split the Tories evwn further as the ERG would all march off and it would regalvinise Farage. And I doubt that many on the other side of the argument would be that impressed either. It would expose Johnson to everyone as a complete chancer in it only for himself. At the moment, there are still 35% or so of voters who do not view him that way.

    Challenge Labour not to back the deal, throw out the ERG-ers (he would have to as it's not Brexit to them), welcome or not the 21 back. And then leave on Oct 31st.

    And then call the election. Which Lab would have to support.

    At this point remainer Tories would be relieved we didn't have No Deal, and could more willingly vote Cons vs LD or Lab; Leaver Tories would be happy that we'd left. I think there would be enough BXP-ers to realise that we'd left so that would leave Nigel with a hollowed out rump. And meanwhile Jezza would be there frightening the horses to a Cons minority or even majority (I'll leave @HYUFD to work up the numbers).

    BXP + ERG probably equals 30% or so in the country -m and there's the BXP takeover of CCPs on top. If there were an eleciton after a May-like deal was voted through many Tory MPs would stand on a platform opposing it. That's the problem. That said, I think Labour would support May's deal if it came with a ratification referendum with Remain as the other option.

    You think Labour would campaign for the deal? Emily Thornberry would campaign for Remain against her own deal, let alone an evil Tory one
    There was a lot of excitable pearl clutching about this last week.

    Weird. Because it’s a perfectly reasonable position.

    Remain vs viable non-unicorn Leave. I prefer Remain but we’ll put a viable Leave on the ballot for those that disagree.
    Yeah, the Labour position looks pretty sound:

    a) we will negotiate a deal
    b) the deal will need to include x y and z for us to support it as a government
    c) we will have a deal vs remain referendum where the government will support the deal if it is deemed good and support remain if not
    d) if we remain we will do so on the terms originally negotiated by David Cameron from way back when (this bit hasn't been said out loud by anyone including the EU yet, but I assume if we Remain this is how we will Remain)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    Great preview review of David Cameron’s book by Peter Hitchens (who hasn’t read it)

    “A brief hors d’oeurve of chest beating and self flagellation followed by a vast turgid lake of self justification”

    I know you like him, but I've never seen the appeal of Peter Hitchens. He doesn't have his later brother's turn of phrase, and just seems to repeat the same thing week-after-week. At least with Christopher there was a crazy arc of beliefs stretching and changing over a quarter century.

    And Christopher also got himself water boarded for a Vanity Fair article. (Which I would highly recommend reading, btw)
    I like that he is proud to be considered stuffy and old fashioned in a world where everyone else is desperate to be seen to be jumping on the latest bandwagon. Saying the same thing every week is a part of that I suppose.

    I think he is quite witty too.


    He also gave the greatest ever comeback on QT

    https://youtu.be/puMqlj0QRjA

    I watched Christopher debate Religion with Stephen Fry on his side vs a bishop and someone whose name escapes me once, in Bloomsbury.
    It was Anne Widdecombe! And here it is

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBSH2oWVGEs
  • The one thing I have to say is that with all these conservatives standing down, and indeed all those who voted with their principles and lost the whip, does demonstrate to me that the labour party mps who put up with Corbyn and fail to do the same have no backbone whatsoever

    I support all these mps and expect the new conservative party, post the GE, to be a very much more a euro septic party

    It will be a long time to me seeking membership again by the looks of it

    ditto me. I hope it stimulates a wider One Nation movement though.
    Septic is the word, I think.
    Disgusting people, all of them.

    Why the f*** don't all the pre-Thatcherites leave and form a One Nation Party taking most of the business funding with them and advocating a move to PR to put an end to unfair election results? I've never been a Tory supporter but I can understand the viewpoints of those who hold views like Clarke (or his mentor, Heath.)

    The Tory right who've given us B***t and want free-er international capital movement - not less of it as they told the plebs in 2016 - seem to lack any understanding of what it means to be poor and one benefit cheque or one pay cheque away from eviction and destitution.
    Brexit is the new opiate of the masses. A distraction for some people to get hot under the collar about so they don't notice things that they should notice. Those that now control the Conservative Party (or CINO as it should be called) are far to the right of Thatcher (even she would be repelled by their views). They wish to emulate the US in virtually all things, including employment rights and environmental protection.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    148grss said:

    Scott_P said:
    Signal and Telegram are both apps with levels of encryption that make it near impossible for authorities to intercept, which is interesting. I know that both have interesting reputations... Telegram specifically is used amongst far right and literal neo nazi groups (although so is twitter, so this isn't to tarnish everyone who uses it) and Signal is used by environmental protesters like Green Peace and XR quite a bit.
    Isn’t Telegram Russian?
  • Scott_P said:
    Are the DUP supporting Johnson's push for an immediate election?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Scott_P said:
    If the Alliance really ends up getting the votes they're currently polling in Northern Ireland, then a lot of this analysis is going to seem very stale.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,508
    isam said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    Great preview review of David Cameron’s book by Peter Hitchens (who hasn’t read it)

    “A brief hors d’oeurve of chest beating and self flagellation followed by a vast turgid lake of self justification”

    I know you like him, but I've never seen the appeal of Peter Hitchens. He doesn't have his later brother's turn of phrase, and just seems to repeat the same thing week-after-week. At least with Christopher there was a crazy arc of beliefs stretching and changing over a quarter century.

    And Christopher also got himself water boarded for a Vanity Fair article. (Which I would highly recommend reading, btw)
    I like that he is proud to be considered stuffy and old fashioned in a world where everyone else is desperate to be seen to be jumping on the latest bandwagon. Saying the same thing every week is a part of that I suppose.

    I think he is quite witty too.


    He also gave the greatest ever comeback on QT

    https://youtu.be/puMqlj0QRjA

    I watched Christopher debate Religion with Stephen Fry on his side vs a bishop and someone whose name escapes me once, in Bloomsbury.
    It was Anne Widdecombe! And here it is

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBSH2oWVGEs
    I agree with you on this.

    I like Peter Hitchens in spite of disagreeing with him vehemently on almost everything (I agree with him on rail nationalisation). He’s witty, polite and erudite - and doesn’t really care what people think of him.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216
    Nigelb said:

    A good Biden question wrapped in an excellent metaphor:

    "Is Joe Biden an ice cube that will melt this fall, or is Joe Biden an iceberg that will carry him all the way to November?”
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/09/joe-biden-frontrunner-implode-2020-1484120

    A poem if I may ;)

    He's Biden his time
    & all his critics are in line
    He's the Democrats last hope
    Against the no platform woke
  • Nigelb said:

    Not a rebel.

    Though his fourth paragraph does suggest that he'd be a willing audience for any potential compromise.
    He, like several others, is clearing the decks for action.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Ed Davey making a fool of himself on Sky
  • Nigelb said:

    The one thing I have to say is that with all these conservatives standing down, and indeed all those who voted with their principles and lost the whip, does demonstrate to me that the labour party mps who put up with Corbyn and fail to do the same have no backbone whatsoever

    I support all these mps and expect the new conservative party, post the GE, to be a very much more a euro septic party

    It will be a long time to me seeking membership again by the looks of it

    Was "euro septic" deliberate ? :smile:
    That is funny
  • rpjs said:

    148grss said:

    Scott_P said:
    Signal and Telegram are both apps with levels of encryption that make it near impossible for authorities to intercept, which is interesting. I know that both have interesting reputations... Telegram specifically is used amongst far right and literal neo nazi groups (although so is twitter, so this isn't to tarnish everyone who uses it) and Signal is used by environmental protesters like Green Peace and XR quite a bit.
    Isn’t Telegram Russian?
    The people who created it are.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    isam said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    Great preview review of David Cameron’s book by Peter Hitchens (who hasn’t read it)

    “A brief hors d’oeurve of chest beating and self flagellation followed by a vast turgid lake of self justification”

    I know you like him, but I've never seen the appeal of Peter Hitchens. He doesn't have his later brother's turn of phrase, and just seems to repeat the same thing week-after-week. At least with Christopher there was a crazy arc of beliefs stretching and changing over a quarter century.

    And Christopher also got himself water boarded for a Vanity Fair article. (Which I would highly recommend reading, btw)
    I like that he is proud to be considered stuffy and old fashioned in a world where everyone else is desperate to be seen to be jumping on the latest bandwagon. Saying the same thing every week is a part of that I suppose.

    I think he is quite witty too.


    He also gave the greatest ever comeback on QT

    https://youtu.be/puMqlj0QRjA

    I watched Christopher debate Religion with Stephen Fry on his side vs a bishop and someone whose name escapes me once, in Bloomsbury.
    It was Anne Widdecombe! And here it is

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBSH2oWVGEs
    Yeah, Fry and Hitchens just smashed this debate... good times
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    148grss said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:



    How does it save him, though? It will split the Tories evwn further as the ERG would all march off and it would regalvinise Farage. And I doubt that many on the other side of the argument would be that impressed either. It would expose Johnson to everyone as a complete chancer in it only for himself. At the moment, there are still 35% or so of voters who do not view him that way.

    Challenge Labour not to back the deal, throw out the ERG-ers (he would have to as it's not Brexit to them), welcome or not the 21 back. And then leave on Oct 31st.

    And then call the election. Which Lab would have to support.

    At this point remainer Tories would be relieved we didn't have No Deal, and could more willingly vote Cons vs LD or Lab; Leaver Tories would be happy that we'd left. I think there would be enough BXP-ers to realise that we'd left so that would leave Nigel with a hollowed out rump. And meanwhile Jezza would be there frightening the horses to a Cons minority or even majority (I'll leave @HYUFD to work up the numbers).

    BXP + ERG probably equals 30% or so in the country -m and there's the BXP takeover of CCPs on top. If there were an eleciton after a May-like deal was voted through many Tory MPs would stand on a platform opposing it. That's the problem. That said, I think Labour would support May's deal if it came with a ratification referendum with Remain as the other option.

    You think Labour would campaign for the deal? Emily Thornberry would campaign for Remain against her own deal, let alone an evil Tory one
    There was a lot of excitable pearl clutching about this last week.

    Weird. Because it’s a perfectly reasonable position.

    Remain vs viable non-unicorn Leave. I prefer Remain but we’ll put a viable Leave on the ballot for those that disagree.
    Yeah, the Labour position looks pretty sound:

    a) we will negotiate a deal
    b) the deal will need to include x y and z for us to support it as a government
    c) we will have a deal vs remain referendum where the government will support the deal if it is deemed good and support remain if not
    d) if we remain we will do so on the terms originally negotiated by David Cameron from way back when (this bit hasn't been said out loud by anyone including the EU yet, but I assume if we Remain this is how we will Remain)
    Cameron’s deal is off the table, and some have even suggested that the rebate is the cost of remaining. About that £350mn a week.....
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    RobD said:

    148grss said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:



    How does it save him, though? It will split the Tories evwn further as the ERG would all march off and it would regalvinise Farage. And I doubt that many on the other side of the argument would be that impressed either. It would expose Johnson to everyone as a complete chancer in it only for himself. At the moment, there are still 35% or so of voters who do not view him that way.

    Challenge Labour not to back the deal, throw out the ERG-ers (he would have to as it's not Brexit to them), welcome or not the 21 back. And then leave on Oct 31st.

    And then call the election. Which Lab would have to support.

    At this point remainer Tories would be relieved we didn't have No Deal, and could more willingly vote Cons vs LD or Lab; Leaver Tories would be happy that we'd left. I think there would be enough BXP-ers to realise that we'd left so that would leave Nigel with a hollowed out rump. And meanwhile Jezza would be there frightening the horses to a Cons minority or even majority (I'll leave @HYUFD to work up the numbers).

    BXP + ERG probably equals 30% or so in the country -m and there's the BXP takeover of CCPs on top. If there were an eleciton after a May-like deal was voted through many Tory MPs would stand on a platform opposing it. That's the problem. That said, I think Labour would support May's deal if it came with a ratification referendum with Remain as the other option.

    You think Labour would campaign for the deal? Emily Thornberry would campaign for Remain against her own deal, let alone an evil Tory one
    There was a lot of excitable pearl clutching about this last week.

    Weird. Because it’s a perfectly reasonable position.

    Remain vs viable non-unicorn Leave. I prefer Remain but we’ll put a viable Leave on the ballot for those that disagree.
    Yeah, the Labour position looks pretty sound:

    a) we will negotiate a deal
    b) the deal will need to include x y and z for us to support it as a government
    c) we will have a deal vs remain referendum where the government will support the deal if it is deemed good and support remain if not
    d) if we remain we will do so on the terms originally negotiated by David Cameron from way back when (this bit hasn't been said out loud by anyone including the EU yet, but I assume if we Remain this is how we will Remain)
    Cameron’s deal is off the table, and some have even suggested that the rebate is the cost of remaining. About that £350mn a week.....
    Still a bargain as 6 months of No Deal would prove once and for all.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    Great preview review of David Cameron’s book by Peter Hitchens (who hasn’t read it)

    “A brief hors d’oeurve of chest beating and self flagellation followed by a vast turgid lake of self justification”

    I know you like him, but I've never seen the appeal of Peter Hitchens. He doesn't have his later brother's turn of phrase, and just seems to repeat the same thing week-after-week. At least with Christopher there was a crazy arc of beliefs stretching and changing over a quarter century.

    And Christopher also got himself water boarded for a Vanity Fair article. (Which I would highly recommend reading, btw)
    I like that he is proud to be considered stuffy and old fashioned in a world where everyone else is desperate to be seen to be jumping on the latest bandwagon. Saying the same thing every week is a part of that I suppose.

    I think he is quite witty too.


    He also gave the greatest ever comeback on QT

    https://youtu.be/puMqlj0QRjA

    I watched Christopher debate Religion with Stephen Fry on his side vs a bishop and someone whose name escapes me once, in Bloomsbury.
    Peter Hitchens for the LibDems there :smile:

    I thought his dig at Ken Clarke re "not all rapes are equally bad" was unnecessary, mind.
  • Peter Hitchens can be lucid, but likes to be the rank outsider and opposer. He looks like he wants to turn the clock back to an imagined past, but he’s actually just someone who defines himself by his dissatisfaction to almost all aspects of life so he can rave against it.

    I worked out a long time ago that there’s no course of action anyone could ever pursue that would satisfy Peter Hitchens, even if you tried to do everything exactly as he said.
  • Scott_P said:
    That seems a shocking overreach to me to be demanding all that private correspondence.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    edited September 2019
    The DUP don’t realise they’ve help shit the bed yet, do they?

    In extremis it may lead to them actually going back to advocating Remain, which wouldn’t help Johnson in a hung parliament.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Davey says LDs could be largest party but will vote against election.
    Go back to your constituencies and prepare to run away from government!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Scott_P said:
    That seems a shocking overreach to me to be demanding all that private correspondence.
    Isn’t it pointless? The material can’t be laid before Parliament if it is prorogued.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    Davey says LDs could be largest party but will vote against election.
    Go back to your constituencies and prepare to run away from government!

    To be fair, it didn't work out well for them last time they were in government, so can you blame them for wanting to avoid the experience again.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    Peter Hitchens can be lucid, but likes to be the rank outsider and opposer. He looks like he wants to turn the clock back to an imagined past, but he’s actually just someone who defines himself by his dissatisfaction to almost all aspects of life so he can rave against it.

    I worked out a long time ago that there’s no course of action anyone could ever pursue that would satisfy Peter Hitchens, even if you tried to do everything exactly as he said.

    I think that's pretty much spot on.
  • RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    That seems a shocking overreach to me to be demanding all that private correspondence.
    Isn’t it pointless? The material can’t be laid before Parliament if it is prorogued.
    I'm presuming if the humble address is both valid and enforceable then the prorogation won't be able to begin until after this has been fulfilled so prorogation can't start until after this late on Wed or Thursday.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2019

    Peter Hitchens can be lucid, but likes to be the rank outsider and opposer. He looks like he wants to turn the clock back to an imagined past, but he’s actually just someone who defines himself by his dissatisfaction to almost all aspects of life so he can rave against it.

    I worked out a long time ago that there’s no course of action anyone could ever pursue that would satisfy Peter Hitchens, even if you tried to do everything exactly as he said.

    He surely has THE most creepy stalker on twitter in the shape of @BuckJeffferson

    Incredible account, almost 7,000 tweets, all about PH
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    Scott_P said:
    That seems a shocking overreach to me to be demanding all that private correspondence.
    All private correspondence relating to particular topics - which should have been fully discussed in the open and minuted..

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Scott_P said:
    That seems a shocking overreach to me to be demanding all that private correspondence.
    Well maybe they shouldn’t be using private communication methods for government business?

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1171055704423182338?s=21
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    Peter Hitchens can be lucid, but likes to be the rank outsider and opposer. He looks like he wants to turn the clock back to an imagined past, but he’s actually just someone who defines himself by his dissatisfaction to almost all aspects of life so he can rave against it.

    I worked out a long time ago that there’s no course of action anyone could ever pursue that would satisfy Peter Hitchens, even if you tried to do everything exactly as he said.

    I think that's pretty much spot on.
    Peter Hitchens just said ‘No it isn’t’
  • AndyJS said:
    That’s been my (shocking) experience of America.

    San Francisco and Seattle are no different. And it’s considered normal there.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    ".... that name's died out, ennit?"

    Not far from me is an Adolfstrasse, and I sometimes wonder if the rents there are a little bit lower, just because, who wants to live in a street with that name?

    I also once walked past a dental practice where the Dentist was called Adolf something. This was around 2010 so I'm assuming he was at least 65. The poor guy must have had fewer patients because of it.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    Scott_P said:
    That seems a shocking overreach to me to be demanding all that private correspondence.
    Well maybe they shouldn’t be using private communication methods for government business?

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1171055704423182338?s=21
    We have seen this from the days of Hillary Clinton as SoS. This has happened in other countries too. Didn't Gove do this in the Cameron government ?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2019
    Are Labour suddenly in favour of an election now that Amber Rudd's former adviser has revealed that private Number 10 polling shows the Tories winning as low as 295 seats?
  • DavidL said:

    I can honestly say that I have never heard of him. A Minister of State? No doubt the fault is mine.
    He's my MP, He's OK without being spectacular. Was a minister then got binned by May, bit harshly. He's visiting my daughter's primary school in a few weeks (maybe...) I will get her opinion :-)

    21K+ majority anyway. Constituency was Remain but only just, like 50.6% or something.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    The reason I quoted Peter Hitchens was because I am watching a show he was on last week, ‘Front Row Late’ presented by Mary Beard, who is supping from a glass of wine as she does so. Very unusual
  • NEW THREAD

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Scott_P said:
    That seems a shocking overreach to me to be demanding all that private correspondence.
    Hardly, since it explicitly specifies "related to the prorogation of Parliament".
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    AndyJS said:

    Are Labour suddenly in favour of an election now that Amber Rudd's former adviser has revealed that private Number 10 polling shows the Tories winning as low as 295 seats?

    Labour also does MRP polling. They are probably well aware of that.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Completely off topic, what do PBers think of this movie trailer for JoJo Rabbit

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL4McUzXfFI

    Being German, I think that the fascination of so many British (and Americans) with this paricular part of German history seems very, very healthy to me, and that I think that the many lessons you derived from your deep and thorough understanding of events will serve you very, very well, at present and in the future.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    rcs1000 said:

    Completely off topic, what do PBers think of this movie trailer for JoJo Rabbit

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL4McUzXfFI

    Being German, I think that the fascination of so many British (and Americans) with this paricular part of German history seems very, very healthy to me, and that I think that the many lessons you derived from your deep and thorough understanding of events will serve you very, very well, at present and in the future.

    An excellent response.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    AndyJS said:

    Are Labour suddenly in favour of an election now that Amber Rudd's former adviser has revealed that private Number 10 polling shows the Tories winning as low as 295 seats?

    FTPA, eh. Unintended consequences can be a bitch, aren't they. Bizarre that a sitting government is now unable to resign without the approval of the opposition.
  • Scott_P said:
    That seems a shocking overreach to me to be demanding all that private correspondence.
    I saw a source "close to Cummings" laughing that off saying (I paraphrase) privacy lawyers would have a field day, and noting how keen No 10 was on the rule of law :)

    (Also... wondering whether Telegram is the social medium of that name, or how No 10 receives messages from the leader of the House??)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    rcs1000 said:

    Completely off topic, what do PBers think of this movie trailer for JoJo Rabbit

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL4McUzXfFI

    Being German, I think that the fascination of so many British (and Americans) with this paricular part of German history seems very, very healthy to me, and that I think that the many lessons you derived from your deep and thorough understanding of events will serve you very, very well, at present and in the future.

    What, you mean the Germans weren’t all evil and the Brits weren’t all heroes?! My world is shattered 😉
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    edited September 2019
    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:
    Yes, MPs have refused to vote for Brexit with a Deal or with No Deal despite the Leave win
    They are just trying to honour the Leave campaign pledge that we would Leave with a deal.
    TSE in full on lie mode again.
    Sorry I have to agree with TSE, every time Project Fear said we would / could leave without a deal, Leave stated we would get a (great, awesome, world's easiest) deal .
    Its called politicking. Both sides do it. Show me this mystical pledge.
    The official Vote Leave leaflet (and it's still on their website) contained the immortal line:

    There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it.
    Yep, and Iceland is a member of the EEA and EFTA (and no other "European free trade zone" that I am aware of. So the key Vote Leave people, if they believe in democracy at all, should definitely be going for the UK leaving the EU and heading for EEA/EFTA. That's Johnson, Gove and Cummings. But we should all already know these people don't believe in democracy at all.
    I have pushed for EFTA and the EEA since long before the referendum and still do. But TSE ssid there was a pledge by Vote Leave that we would get a deal. So far he has talked about videos and comments but no sign of an actual pledge or promise. He is a typicsl fanatic who holds his opposition to much higher standards of honesty than his own side.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    Actually, sorry, if Johnson agrees to the extension it will not go well. If he plonked Mays Deal, tarted up a bit, to the public as Tory policy in a GE before Nov, Brexit Party would be wiped out I reckon.

    Yes. Agree. FWIW the only way out of this for the country, and for Boris, is to bring back a TUMD (Tarted Up May Deal). Or "rolled in glitter" as is becoming the vernacular. And because, country aside, it incidentally saves Boris is why it should be front runner.

    I happen to continue to believe it will happen.

    How does it save him, though? It will split the Tories evwn further as the ERG would all march off and it would regalvinise Farage. And I doubt that many on the other side of the argument would be that impressed either. It would expose Johnson to everyone as a complete chancer in it only for himself. At the moment, there are still 35% or so of voters who do not view him that way.

    Challenge Labour not to back the deal, throw out the ERG-ers (he would have to as it's not Brexit to them), welcome or not the 21 back. And then leave on Oct 31st.

    And then call the election. Which Lab would have to support.

    At this point remainer Tories would be relieved we didn't have No Deal, and could more willingly vote Cons vs LD or Lab; Leaver Tories would be happy that we'd left. I think there would be enough BXP-ers to realise that we'd left so that would leave Nigel with a hollowed out rump. And meanwhile Jezza would be there frightening the horses to a Cons minority or even majority (I'll leave @HYUFD to work up the numbers).
    I think that's a great plan. I have a feeling the formerly blue 22 are more of threat in terms of taking votes from the Tories than the ERG are. And frankly there is probably some votes to be had from chucking out the ERG as a thing in its own right.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,573
    rcs1000 said:

    Peter Hitchens can be lucid, but likes to be the rank outsider and opposer. He looks like he wants to turn the clock back to an imagined past, but he’s actually just someone who defines himself by his dissatisfaction to almost all aspects of life so he can rave against it.

    I worked out a long time ago that there’s no course of action anyone could ever pursue that would satisfy Peter Hitchens, even if you tried to do everything exactly as he said.

    I think that's pretty much spot on.
    Now that the great Christopher Booker is sadly dead there is a vacancy for Top Contrarian's Contrarian. I hesitate to say that Peter Hitchens might fill the gap as he could write 5000 words disagreeing with it. Anyway, even humble journalists can't make much of a living agreeing with people, even themselves, for long.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Peter Hitchens can be lucid, but likes to be the rank outsider and opposer. He looks like he wants to turn the clock back to an imagined past, but he’s actually just someone who defines himself by his dissatisfaction to almost all aspects of life so he can rave against it.

    I worked out a long time ago that there’s no course of action anyone could ever pursue that would satisfy Peter Hitchens, even if you tried to do everything exactly as he said.

    He won't like you saying that.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    AndyJS said:
    In Central London you can see homeless heroin addicts shooting up in doorways. I'm not sure we're that mucg better.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    edited September 2019
    *New gig for Olly Robbins klaxon*

    I think the key phrase is “outside immediate government responsibilities”.

    I can see a good paper on “civil service paperclip priorities 2019-23” coming out of this :)

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/permanent-secretary-appointment-to-new-heywood-fellowship?utm_source=325846d2-87fb-4d55-bee2-1cd132aeff20&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    edited September 2019
    ...
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