I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill
Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?
Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
I'm absolutely heart broken that Kenneth Clarke has been kicked out of the Tory party, nearly fifty years of service in Parliament, over 25 years on the front bench.
He was the greatest Chancellor of my lifetime, and one of the main reasons I'm a Conservative and joined the Tory party.
Not regretting my resignation, but regretting that it has come to this for Ken.
I expect he'll take it in his stride. His sense of perspective is unrivalled.
For my entire life politics has been predictable within certain boundaries (e.g. we all made a few quid when the Cameron majority surprise turned up before the bookies could adapt, but a Milliband Gvt would have looked similar in many ways) but all that’s gone now. Who the f### knows what happens next?
A decent Boris majority is possible (followed by swiftly becoming super unpopular, not that it matters with a big majority); a Corbyn led Remain coalition is possible (though you’d think it might fall apart over the impending recession); and frankly some bonkers stuff like a LibDem Gvt doesn’t feel impossible.
I'm absolutely heart broken that Kenneth Clarke has been kicked out of the Tory party, nearly fifty years of service in Parliament, over 25 years on the front bench.
He was the greatest Chancellor of my lifetime, and one of the main reasons I'm a Conservative and joined the Tory party.
Not regretting my resignation, but regretting that it has come to this for Ken.
It's a shame he didn't retire in 2017. He knew the Conservatives had left his Europhilia behind then, the party was a Leave party and he was not. Shame it has come to this - he is the ONLY MP in the 21 I respect unconditionally. He has his principles, he opposed Article 50, he is the only one to be consistent.
Its a shame, but its come to it. Thank you for your service Ken.
Good. If we are to have realignment, let’s get on with it. Enough faffing. WE DON’T HAVE ANY TIME LEFT
Kaboom! Boris goes down in history as splitting the broad church conservatives.
It will not end well in the long term.
Kaboom! Boris unites the vast majority of Leave voters behind the Tories while the diehard Remainers are split down the middle.
If a footie team finished bottom of the league the manager and bad players would be out on their ear.
The Cons have changed their manager now the duff big time players have sold themselves to Rochdale.
I really don'r think that that's how the average punter is going to see the likes of Rory Stewart, Ken Clarke, Justine Greening and Philip Hammond being kicked out of the Conservative Party.
Indeed Rory was very popular with the punters, just not with the Tory selectorate.
I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill
Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?
Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
I'm absolutely heart broken that Kenneth Clarke has been kicked out of the Tory party, nearly fifty years of service in Parliament, over 25 years on the front bench.
He was the greatest Chancellor of my lifetime, and one of the main reasons I'm a Conservative and joined the Tory party.
Not regretting my resignation, but regretting that it has come to this for Ken.
I understand your pain, TSE, and sympathise. But until you understand how Ken “I’ve not read the Maastricht Treaty” Clarke is one of the REASONS we are where we are, then you won’t understand Britain’s politics in a basic way. And your bewildered grief will continue.
Arrogant, lazy, casual, frivolous, complacent europhiles like Clarke believed they were simply right about the EU, and that everyone else was wrong. What’s worse, they believed that anyone who queried them was a racist or an idiot, and should be ignored by polite folk. This bred a festering resentment, which, in the end, led to Brexit.
Clarke is too old and vain to undertake the self examination needed to realise this. You are not.
More rebels will need to be deselected tomorrow, I reckon.
(By 'rebels', I of course mean loyal Conservatives with many years of service to the party and country).
Doesn't matter how many years of service to the party and country you have if you vote against on a confidence matter does it?
Oh, quite. Rees-Mogg, Steve Baker, Boris and the rest of the nutjobs should have been sacked by Theresa May. Unfortunately she didn't have the numbers or support to do so, but nor does Boris.
And yet he is doing it anyway and rightfully so. If only May had shown that sort of bottle we might not be in this mess.
'Bottle' means recklessness. It might just work, for one election. The party will be even more wrecked by it than it currently is, though. Not to mention the country.
Yeah, just like every other political development for the last seven years.
Listen, I hate to break it to you, but when it comes to matters of sovereignty the Scottish electorate are cuckolds. They voted for Union cuckoldry in 2014 and they voted for supranational cuckoldry in 2016. I can only think of a handful of countries that have eschewed independence when it's been offered at the ballot box, and north of the border you've done it twice in thirty months.
What makes you think that there's any possibility of Scotland voting to leave the UK outside the EU?
No, the UK is done. It is just a matter of timing now.
Brexit has created such a schism between England and Scotland and England that the Union is over, even if we Remain.
The next UK opinion polls are going to be incredibly interesting - and maybe v v important. How will the voters react?
So hard to call.
I think the Tories will still be comfortably ahead, but also that tactical anti-Tory voting is now going to be commonplace. We've seen several examples here of posters who were never-Corbyn who are going to vote Labour tactically, and I know several Labour people who are going to vote LibDem, in some cases in a quiet agreement with someone in another seat going the other way. The Johnson/Cummings assault has pushed the opposition parties much closer together.
Good. If we are to have realignment, let’s get on with it. Enough faffing. WE DON’T HAVE ANY TIME LEFT
Kaboom! Boris goes down in history as splitting the broad church conservatives.
It will not end well in the long term.
Kaboom! Boris unites the vast majority of Leave voters behind the Tories while the diehard Remainers are split down the middle.
If a footie team finished bottom of the league the manager and bad players would be out on their ear.
The Cons have changed their manager now the duff big time players have sold themselves to Rochdale.
I really don'r think that that's how the average punter is going to see the likes of Rory Stewart, Ken Clarke, Justine Greening and Philip Hammond being kicked out of the Conservative Party.
It is not even about the average punter, 1 in 3 tory voters were remainers this morning. Their vote will be up for grabs in this campaign.
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
The next UK opinion polls are going to be incredibly interesting - and maybe v v important. How will the voters react?
So hard to call.
I think the Tories will still be comfortably ahead, but also that tactical anti-Tory voting is now going to be commonplace. We've seen several examples here of posters who were never-Corbyn who are going to vote Labour tactically, and I know several Labour people who are going to vote LibDem, in some cases in a quiet agreement with someone in another seat going the other way. The Johnson/Cummings assault has pushed the opposition parties much closer together.
I will vote LD in K&S if someone votes Labour in a Tory-Labour marginal.
This is a truly terrible loss to politics in general and to the future of Cons, if and when they recover the idea of being a broad church.
Yes, I think it's quite sad. He wasn't well liked by the Conservatives: a thoughtful Tory is missing the point. But he was a grace to his party and is not easily replaced.
1) Tonight’s vote was a “confidence” motion, so the whip should be withdrawn from the rebels, unlike those who voted against the WA, but that the Prime Minister doesn’t have to resign having lost it
2) The Conservative & Unionist Party is the “anti-establishment” party.
Wow.
You missed the best one of all...
3). Jacob Rees-Mogg is a Northern working-class hero
What Labour really need to do is find a way to get the election called for post October 31st, meaning the extension legislation will have to be used, and the do or die deadline passes, and with it any credibility Boris has left. Could proroguing parliament actually help here? Just need to avoid having an election vote before next week, then can't have one until afterward in October.
Yeah, it was being whispered on Twitter earlier that Labour would demand December for the election.
I'm absolutely heart broken that Kenneth Clarke has been kicked out of the Tory party, nearly fifty years of service in Parliament, over 25 years on the front bench.
He was the greatest Chancellor of my lifetime, and one of the main reasons I'm a Conservative and joined the Tory party.
Not regretting my resignation, but regretting that it has come to this for Ken.
I expect he'll take it in his stride. His sense of perspective is unrivalled.
I know but still feel incredibly sad.
Indeed it is, and no way for a party to reward someone of his service.
His parting shot on a Newsnight was to muse that he’d have to consider whether he could vote for a party led by Johnson in the coming election.
Remember during the leadership campaign when some Boris backers were hinting he'd shift back towards a moderate position after tricking the ERG nutters into giving him their vote?
I'm absolutely heart broken that Kenneth Clarke has been kicked out of the Tory party, nearly fifty years of service in Parliament, over 25 years on the front bench.
He was the greatest Chancellor of my lifetime, and one of the main reasons I'm a Conservative and joined the Tory party.
Not regretting my resignation, but regretting that it has come to this for Ken.
I understand your pain, TSE, and sympathise. But until you understand how Ken “I’ve not read the Maastricht Treaty” Clarke is one of the REASONS we are where we are, then you won’t understand Britain’s politics in a basic way. And your bewildered grief will continue.
Arrogant, lazy, casual, frivolous, complacent europhiles like Clarke believed they were simply right about the EU, and that everyone else was wrong. What’s worse, they believed that anyone who queried them was a racist or an idiot, and should be ignored by polite folk. This bred a festering resentment, which, in the end, led to Brexit.
Clarke is too old and vain to undertake the self examination needed to realise this. You are not.
Ken Clarke's comment was in relation to the Scott Inquiry when Mrs Thatcher said she never read every single report she received, she didn't have the time, she only read the summaries in most instances.
I'd remind you Ken Clarke voted three times to Leave the EU.
I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill
Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?
Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
Excellent, all going perfectly to plan. The Sun saying Boris has been humiliated, with his head in his hands. Just what was needed to shore up victory. Cummings is five moves ahead of us every time.
Edit: ah just seen the English Sun version - more like I was expecting!
Yeah, just like every other political development for the last seven years.
Listen, I hate to break it to you, but when it comes to matters of sovereignty the Scottish electorate are cuckolds. They voted for Union cuckoldry in 2014 and they voted for supranational cuckoldry in 2016. I can only think of a handful of countries that have eschewed independence when it's been offered at the ballot box, and north of the border you've done it twice in thirty months.
What makes you think that there's any possibility of Scotland voting to leave the UK outside the EU?
No, the UK is done. It is just a matter of timing now.
Brexit has created such a schism between England and Scotland and England that the Union is over, even if we Remain.
I'll donate £100 to a charity of your choice on the day Scotland leaves the UK, if you send a pound a month to a charity of my choice for every month Scotland is in the UK. Deal?
I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill
Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?
Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
More rebels will need to be deselected tomorrow, I reckon.
(By 'rebels', I of course mean loyal Conservatives with many years of service to the party and country).
Doesn't matter how many years of service to the party and country you have if you vote against on a confidence matter does it?
Oh, quite. Rees-Mogg, Steve Baker, Boris and the rest of the nutjobs should have been sacked by Theresa May. Unfortunately she didn't have the numbers or support to do so, but nor does Boris.
Someone criticised me earlier for being too harsh on the FTPA but isn't this exactly one of the places where its presence got in the way?
If May had made voting for her deal a matter of confidence (something not possible under the FTPA) she'd either have got it through* or would have fought a GE on it. There was a point at which voters had a degree of sympathy for her efforts to leave with a deal. I suspect in practice she'd have been eviscerated by virtue of her deal being torn apart by all sides - "too Tory" say Labour, "not a real Brexit" says Farage now possibly with some senior ex-Tories in tow, "we don't even want to Brexit!" say the Remain Alliance - but it would have been an extra tool in her arsenal for making a hung parliament functional, and not one that seems inherently undemocratic.
* unlikely it would have got through bearing in mind that support from other parties was required, but perhaps the dynamics of the situation might have changed by virtue of May taking it so seriously. There were people who thought the deal was basically a good outcome, knew that voting for it would burn some bridges of their own, and realised that since there was no chance of the thing passing that it would be a pointless sacrifice. Potentially a few extra votes might have been in play if it did seem to have a chance.
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
That is my point.
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
More rebels will need to be deselected tomorrow, I reckon.
(By 'rebels', I of course mean loyal Conservatives with many years of service to the party and country).
Doesn't matter how many years of service to the party and country you have if you vote against on a confidence matter does it?
Oh, quite. Rees-Mogg, Steve Baker, Boris and the rest of the nutjobs should have been sacked by Theresa May. Unfortunately she didn't have the numbers or support to do so, but nor does Boris.
And yet he is doing it anyway and rightfully so. If only May had shown that sort of bottle we might not be in this mess.
'Bottle' means recklessness. It might just work, for one election. The party will be even more wrecked by it than it currently is, though. Not to mention the country.
Everyone inside a political party has the right to argue their point of view but they should also respect the majority view when it has been reached, especially on a matter of confidence. If you don’t you give up your career in that party. The alternative is the chaos of the last 2 years. It does not provide stable or reliable government.
I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill
Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?
Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
Its a moot point, if the PM refuses to get royal consent and the Queen allows this, parliament will install a new PM, who will do it.
Isn't that what we were all agreeing was so problematical, only a few days ago?
The govt had a majority then. If the Tory rebels even abstain it is enough. Ken Clarke said he could vote for Corbyn as a last resort, Id imagine he has a lot of sway over 21 votes now.
I think either he will accept the bill in return for GE Oct 15 or if consent is required threaten no consent without GE, against Corbyns No GE without bill
Doesn't our whole constitution depend on the monarch always assenting to bills passed by Parliament?
Given the protests already seen over prorogation what will we see if assent is withheld?
Not assent, consent. If a bill affects the royal prerogative it requires royal consent to reach the end of the parliamentary process which must be proposed by a minister. Assent is rubber stamping something that's passed all 3 readings etc
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
That is my point.
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
The thing is extremists play that game again and again, until the only person pure enough for their cult is themselves, and they are at war against the rest of the world.
So looks as if Corbyn isn't pushing it too far - wisely in my view.
As soon as the Bill goes through, he'll agree to GE.
GE on 15th Oct - Boris can still campaign on basis he won't extend before 31st Oct - and if he gets a majority he can repeal the Bill.
Could in theory be blocked by Lords but in practice won't be - in any case that won't be an issue as far as the GE campaign goes - he'll just say he'll repeal it - and what the Lords may / may not do is too much of an anorak issue to get any traction with the public.
Yeah, just like every other political development for the last seven years.
Listen, I hate to break it to you, but when it comes to matters of sovereignty the Scottish electorate are cuckolds. They voted for Union cuckoldry in 2014 and they voted for supranational cuckoldry in 2016. I can only think of a handful of countries that have eschewed independence when it's been offered at the ballot box, and north of the border you've done it twice in thirty months.
What makes you think that there's any possibility of Scotland voting to leave the UK outside the EU?
No, the UK is done. It is just a matter of timing now.
Brexit has created such a schism between England and Scotland and England that the Union is over, even if we Remain.
I'll donate £100 to a charity of your choice on the day Scotland leaves the UK, if you send a pound a month to a charity of my choice for every month Scotland is in the UK. Deal?
Maverick genius Dominic Cumming has reunited the Labour Party and split the Conservative Party. In a month. That’s one hell of an achievement
He's united the Conservative Party.
I think you will find 100% of Conservative MPs voted with the whip tonight. The party is united.
They were Tory MPs at the time of the vote, so no, 100% of Tory MPs did not vote with the whip. Some didn't and have now been punished. Whether that is a good or bad thing - I say it is a good thing because the divisions are clearer now - the party was demonstrably not united until after the vote.
That is my point.
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
It is no longer the Conservative party. They might as well merge with Farage’s mob, if he’d have them.
So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?
He will call a no-confidence vote in himself... which he will also probably lose.
Now that will be funny.
Momentarily at least. Part of the problem for a long time has been a government (or leaders) which does not have the confidence of the House(party) but the House refuses so far to actually officially say so, despite defeating it all the time.
So what is Johnson's next move if he fails to get 2/3rds for FTPA election?
If he really is Trump then sack Cummings/Bannon.
I was just thinking if Boris is looking at gaming the system in so many ways, then if Trump loses his 2020 election it will be very difficult to get him to actually leave!
Comments
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/
https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1169011497940508672
A decent Boris majority is possible (followed by swiftly becoming super unpopular, not that it matters with a big majority); a Corbyn led Remain coalition is possible (though you’d think it might fall apart over the impending recession); and frankly some bonkers stuff like a LibDem Gvt doesn’t feel impossible.
Who the f%## knows?
Its a shame, but its come to it. Thank you for your service Ken.
Unfortunately, he is standing for Penrith and the Borders. He knows he'd lose ...
... and that is why he has gone.
I thought he was determined to walk around and convince people one by one. I'm really disappointed by that.
Arrogant, lazy, casual, frivolous, complacent europhiles like Clarke believed they were simply right about the EU, and that everyone else was wrong. What’s worse, they believed that anyone who queried them was a racist or an idiot, and should be ignored by polite folk. This bred a festering resentment, which, in the end, led to Brexit.
Clarke is too old and vain to undertake the self examination needed to realise this. You are not.
1. There would have been 22 rebels, but luckily one of their MPs crossed the floor before he could rebel.
2. There will now be enough space on the Tory benches for more of their MPs to lounge in the Wooster-like manner of the Moggster.
After tonight he will definitely be in the history books
Only from the PB Tories.
Only on PB.
(Filling in for Tim at these critical moments)
His parting shot on a Newsnight was to muse that he’d have to consider whether he could vote for a party led by Johnson in the coming election.
Today YouGov has it Tories 35%, Labour 25%, LDs 16%, Brexit Party 11%.
A swing of 4% from Labour to the Tories, 8% from the LDs to the Tories and 12% from the Brexit Party to the Tories in just over 2 months.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
I'd remind you Ken Clarke voted three times to Leave the EU.
Edit: ah just seen the English Sun version - more like I was expecting!
As SeanT might once have said, "fuck it, let's have a civil war"
If May had made voting for her deal a matter of confidence (something not possible under the FTPA) she'd either have got it through* or would have fought a GE on it. There was a point at which voters had a degree of sympathy for her efforts to leave with a deal. I suspect in practice she'd have been eviscerated by virtue of her deal being torn apart by all sides - "too Tory" say Labour, "not a real Brexit" says Farage now possibly with some senior ex-Tories in tow, "we don't even want to Brexit!" say the Remain Alliance - but it would have been an extra tool in her arsenal for making a hung parliament functional, and not one that seems inherently undemocratic.
* unlikely it would have got through bearing in mind that support from other parties was required, but perhaps the dynamics of the situation might have changed by virtue of May taking it so seriously. There were people who thought the deal was basically a good outcome, knew that voting for it would burn some bridges of their own, and realised that since there was no chance of the thing passing that it would be a pointless sacrifice. Potentially a few extra votes might have been in play if it did seem to have a chance.
https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1169014049390174210?s=21
“POLLING vs PB ANECDOTE”
Except in his day, polling was the good thing
The party was not united before the vote. It is now.
It's an extreme tactic but Boris has united the party.
https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/current-state-of-the-parties/
Quite incredible.
Tell the EU and the voters he will never agree to an extension. Letter or not.
That's the SNP in Scotland, and the Tories in England and Wales.
Perfectly consistent front pages.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1169013835170230273
Compared to May, Jezza looked like a crazed Zealot.
Compared to BoZo and Darth Cummings, he looks like magic Grandpa again.
As soon as the Bill goes through, he'll agree to GE.
GE on 15th Oct - Boris can still campaign on basis he won't extend before 31st Oct - and if he gets a majority he can repeal the Bill.
Could in theory be blocked by Lords but in practice won't be - in any case that won't be an issue as far as the GE campaign goes - he'll just say he'll repeal it - and what the Lords may / may not do is too much of an anorak issue to get any traction with the public.
Pile in, punters
Night all.
They might as well merge with Farage’s mob, if he’d have them.
Momentarily at least. Part of the problem for a long time has been a government (or leaders) which does not have the confidence of the House(party) but the House refuses so far to actually officially say so, despite defeating it all the time. Aren't they now going for 15th October?
Which is a pisser, I'm busy then.