I'm actually not a fan of written constitutions, and I'm even less of a fan of the supposedly stark distinction between written and unwritten. In reality, big parts of the UK constitution are written (spread across many pieces of legislation rather than one single coherent document) and big parts of many other countries' constitutions are not actually in the big document that proclaims itself to be The Constitution - there are still other pieces of legislation with constitutional impact, and layer upon layer of precedent and practice.
But if constitutional matters don't get sorted out settle down over the next few years, I am going to become more deeply persuaded of the need for a written UK constitution. Won't stop brinkmanship or people pushing things to the limits, of course, but may make it clearer where exactly those limits are.
As I never tire of boring people - our constitution isn’t unwritten, it’s just uncodified
Parts of our constitution are codified which might be the problem.
I prefer the good old days when our constitution was based on letters to The Times using pseudonyms.
Boris was as poor as I can recall today coming under fire across the house and his blustering was hopeless.
In a GE he may do better but as far as I am concerned I want all these incompetent mps to face the electorate and let the voters decide
This HOC is finished and it is essential that Boris gets his GE for the 14th October
I am not even going to make any observation on the make up, I am past caring
I am with you Big G. It’s so depressing.
On Oct 14th, I understand it's a Jewish holy day of some sort, where they are expected to do no work. Apparently voting counts as work. Whether or not filling in a postal vote a few days before counts as working that day, I don't know, but given some religious (from any religion) rules I wouldn't be surprised if it it did.
Yes applying any logic to the rules of religion is the definition of a fool’s errand.
You are ignoring millenia of Jewish and Islamic legal thought there. Even if you don't agree with the starting premises, it is fiercely logical.
There haven't been millennia of Islamic thought, and you are wrong: it is loopy even on its own terms. God rested on day 7, he didn't say anybody else had to. Why is it only his Sundays we have to copy - if we are doing that why don't we also create heaven and earth every Monday?
Plus I'd be more impressed if the three main lots of them didn't give three different answers out of a possible seven to the question, which is the sabbath?
By way of anecdote a work colleague from the North East said his father, a Leaver but a lifelong Labour voter who even voted Labour in 2015 and 2017, will vote Tory for the first time in his life out of fury that MPs are still blocking Boris delivering Brexit
Electoral Calculus shows Tory gains from the SNP in Scotland. That tells us all we need to know about Electoral Calculus.
Nevertheless the Tories really should win a majority, so I just don’t get where all this stuff about Brexit being over is coming from.
I think as soon as the electorate cotton on to the fact the Tories are on course for a majority they will conspire such that the Tories do not get a majority.
Everything tells me that the Tories are in a very poor position and are widely unloved.
Boris was as poor as I can recall today coming under fire across the house and his blustering was hopeless.
In a GE he may do better but as far as I am concerned I want all these incompetent mps to face the electorate and let the voters decide
This HOC is finished and it is essential that Boris gets his GE for the 14th October
I am not even going to make any observation on the make up, I am past caring
I am with you Big G. It’s so depressing.
On Oct 14th, I understand it's a Jewish holy day of some sort, where they are expected to do no work. Apparently voting counts as work. Whether or not filling in a postal vote a few days before counts as working that day, I don't know, but given some religious (from any religion) rules I wouldn't be surprised if it it did.
Yes applying any logic to the rules of religion is the definition of a fool’s errand.
You are ignoring millenia of Jewish and Islamic legal thought there. Even if you don't agree with the starting premises, it is fiercely logical.
Quite funny to see Phllip Lee's justification for abstaining on same-sex marriage.
He thought marriage should be left to "churches, other religious institutions and humanist groups."
Apparently the man's never heard of register offices. Amazing how out-of-touch our masters can be.
It's a good example of the hurdles Conservatives have to go through to join the Lib Dems though.
I'd certainly never do so.
I don't think they'd expect you to have a same-sex marriage.
My point is they are still two very different parties with different sets of values.
Not really. The One Nation Conservative values are very similar to the Yellow Book LDs. There are very strong similarities. There is much more in common between these two and the authoritarian right wing that now dominates the Tory Party
Here we go... Opnion really starting to move ahead of the general election.
I'm not sure I trust any opinion polls anymore. A YouGov constituency poll would probably be it. In lieu of that i'd look at Brexit petition densities and local election results, but lots of error in both.
I just trust my gut which tells me results will follow demographics and values (not UNS) and constituency results could be all over the place with lots of nominal three way marginals thereafter.
My gut instinct is that Labour could do even worse than a UNS. I expect their 25% core vote to be even more concentrated in big cities than their 40% vote. The white working class voters they have lost are more scattered. With the Lib Dems it could be a similar story among younger unversity graduates, though that changes if they win a lot of leafy suburbs voters.
According to the Guardian 'The prime minister would not expect people who have voted to take power away from this government and to hand it to the opposition, to be a Conservative candidate or a Conservative MP.'
And 'voting' apparently includes abstaining.
We could soon have almost as many ex-Tories as Tories in the House!
As an ex member, I would have preferred it if a leading Conservative figure, through his stupidity and incompetence had not created the only conditions in which Jeremy Corbyn might take power. It is about time BoZo owned it, but I suspect, like all lightweights, he will blame someone else
apologies if this has already been posted but I'm trying to organise my evening - does anyone have a potential timetable of events in the HoC this evening?
Boris was as poor as I can recall today coming under fire across the house and his blustering was hopeless.
In a GE he may do better but as far as I am concerned I want all these incompetent mps to face the electorate and let the voters decide
This HOC is finished and it is essential that Boris gets his GE for the 14th October
I am not even going to make any observation on the make up, I am past caring
I am with you Big G. It’s so depressing.
On Oct 14th, I understand it's a Jewish holy day of some sort, where they are expected to do no work. Apparently voting counts as work. Whether or not filling in a postal vote a few days before counts as working that day, I don't know, but given some religious (from any religion) rules I wouldn't be surprised if it it did.
Yes applying any logic to the rules of religion is the definition of a fool’s errand.
You are ignoring millenia of Jewish and Islamic legal thought there. Even if you don't agree with the starting premises, it is fiercely logical.
There haven't been millennia of Islamic thought, and you are wrong: it is loopy even on its own terms. God rested on day 7, he didn't say anybody else had to. Why is it only his Sundays we have to copy - if we are doing that why don't we also create heaven and earth every Monday?
Plus I'd be more impressed if the three main lots of them didn't give three different answers out of a possible seven to the question, which is the sabbath?
I am secular so don't believe in any of it, but from the starting premises it is very logical. In fact that is one of the problems of the fundamentalists. They follow logic wherever it goes, even if you get to stupid situations like being able to get in a lift but not being able to press the button.
Quite funny to see Phllip Lee's justification for abstaining on same-sex marriage.
He thought marriage should be left to "churches, other religious institutions and humanist groups."
Apparently the man's never heard of register offices. Amazing how out-of-touch our masters can be.
It's a good example of the hurdles Conservatives have to go through to join the Lib Dems though.
I'd certainly never do so.
I don't think they'd expect you to have a same-sex marriage.
My point is they are still two very different parties with different sets of values.
Not really. The One Nation Conservative values are very similar to the Yellow Book LDs. There are very strong similarities. There is much more in common between these two and the authoritarian right wing that now dominates the Tory Party
Those are two distinct wings of the respective parties that share a lot with regard to social liberalism. It's a question of degree, yes, but there's also the median of the values the parties hold which is somewhere quite different for both.
I could see George Osborne and Jeremy Browne in the same party, for instance, but not Evan Harris and David Cameron.
Boris was as poor as I can recall today coming under fire across the house and his blustering was hopeless.
In a GE he may do better but as far as I am concerned I want all these incompetent mps to face the electorate and let the voters decide
This HOC is finished and it is essential that Boris gets his GE for the 14th October
I am not even going to make any observation on the make up, I am past caring
I am with you Big G. It’s so depressing.
On Oct 14th, I understand it's a Jewish holy day of some sort, where they are expected to do no work. Apparently voting counts as work. Whether or not filling in a postal vote a few days before counts as working that day, I don't know, but given some religious (from any religion) rules I wouldn't be surprised if it it did.
Yes applying any logic to the rules of religion is the definition of a fool’s errand.
You are ignoring millenia of Jewish and Islamic legal thought there. Even if you don't agree with the starting premises, it is fiercely logical.
There haven't been millennia of Islamic thought, and you are wrong: it is loopy even on its own terms. God rested on day 7, he didn't say anybody else had to. Why is it only his Sundays we have to copy - if we are doing that why don't we also create heaven and earth every Monday?
Plus I'd be more impressed if the three main lots of them didn't give three different answers out of a possible seven to the question, which is the sabbath?
Well put. I was going to draft a response to his absurd claim but you did a much better job of it.
There is a wooden bridge that allows access across the River Lossie in Lossiemouth to the lovely East Beach that has been deemed dangerous and has been closed for safety. It has caused a stir in the community as they value their access but £500,000 is needed to restore it
Well, today the SNP have announced funding for a new bridge to resolve the problem
By way of anecdote a work colleague from the North East said his father, a Leaver but a lifelong Labour voter who even voted Labour in 2015 and 2017, will vote Tory for the first time in his life out of fury that MPs are still blocking Boris delivering Brexit
Electoral Calculus shows Tory gains from the SNP in Scotland. That tells us all we need to know about Electoral Calculus.
Nevertheless the Tories really should win a majority, so I just don’t get where all this stuff about Brexit being over is coming from.
I think as soon as the electorate cotton on to the fact the Tories are on course for a majority they will conspire such that the Tories do not get a majority.
Everything tells me that the Tories are in a very poor position and are widely unloved.
I do not know I was at a family event over the weekend, school caretaker, teaching assistant, retired, company directors, chef from level below michelin, etc.
Almost to a person Boris was showing leadership to sort the children out. I was also surprised at the strength of the we voted out, so it must be out. This was the Tory shires and it is anecdotal as well, but I stick to my view very committed pro-EU types will never forgive Boris, but the rest will give him a go.
By way of anecdote a work colleague from the North East said his father, a Leaver but a lifelong Labour voter who even voted Labour in 2015 and 2017, will vote Tory for the first time in his life out of fury that MPs are still blocking Boris delivering Brexit
It beats me why Labour are still ahead of the LDs but that's how it is apparently.
Corbyn could offer to slaughter all the first born and he'd still get 20%
By way of anecdote a work colleague from the North East said his father, a Leaver but a lifelong Labour voter who even voted Labour in 2015 and 2017, will vote Tory for the first time in his life out of fury that MPs are still blocking Boris delivering Brexit
It beats me why Labour are still ahead of the LDs but that's how it is apparently.
Corbyn could offer to slaughter all the first born and he'd still get 20%
Here we go again. First born every bloody time. I feel picked on.
Boris was as poor as I can recall today coming under fire across the house and his blustering was hopeless.
In a GE he may do better but as far as I am concerned I want all these incompetent mps to face the electorate and let the voters decide
This HOC is finished and it is essential that Boris gets his GE for the 14th October
I am not even going to make any observation on the make up, I am past caring
I am with you Big G. It’s so depressing.
On Oct 14th, I understand it's a Jewish holy day of some sort, where they are expected to do no work. Apparently voting counts as work. Whether or not filling in a postal vote a few days before counts as working that day, I don't know, but given some religious (from any religion) rules I wouldn't be surprised if it it did.
Yes applying any logic to the rules of religion is the definition of a fool’s errand.
You are ignoring millenia of Jewish and Islamic legal thought there. Even if you don't agree with the starting premises, it is fiercely logical.
There haven't been millennia of Islamic thought, and you are wrong: it is loopy even on its own terms. God rested on day 7, he didn't say anybody else had to. Why is it only his Sundays we have to copy - if we are doing that why don't we also create heaven and earth every Monday?
Plus I'd be more impressed if the three main lots of them didn't give three different answers out of a possible seven to the question, which is the sabbath?
I am secular so don't believe in any of it, but from the starting premises it is very logical. In fact that is one of the problems of the fundamentalists. They follow logic wherever it goes, even if you get to stupid situations like being able to get in a lift but not being able to press the button.
It’s too late. Remainers scent total victory. They won’t hold back now.
Brace.
It is the pendulum effect and if that is true, the "fault" lies with the ERG and all the other tossers who thought they would position themselves one way in the referendum, and then as soon as they got their narrow victory thought they would stick bells and whistles on it and to hell with everyone else
Exactly. The defeat of the remain Goliath by the leave Davids in 2016 - much against everyone's expectations - was a necessary but not sufficient condition for the delivery of Brexit. The leavers had no clear plan for leaving and the remain forces, though shocked and cowed, were not completely vanquished - they felt that the narrowness of the result and the need to preserve national unity would lead the leavers to propose a soft Brexit - staying in the EU economic structure but leaving the political structure, the kind of Norway solution which many leavers had promoted during the referendum campaign.
But the victorious leavers overreached themselves - they thought that their victory had transformed them overnight into the political Goliaths who could impose their own extreme version of Brexit even though there was absolutely no evidence that it could command popular support. Even after this was made abundantly clear by the result of the 2017 election leavers pushed ahead making more and more absurd and unrealistic demands of the EU in the belief that the referendum result was a cast iron guarantee that the UK would leave in all circumstances. irrespective of the damage done in the process. All compromise was scorned, they were determined to force through no deal, and so now we have got to the position in which a deal is impossible and the only options open to us are a no deal departure or the collapse of Brexit. And the latter is now the most likely, it is very, very hard to see an election producing a parliament with a majority for no deal.
I think it is unlikely but not very very hard. The problem is after an election there wont be a majority for soft Brexit or 2nd ref either (assuming Tory MPs block any Corbyn deal and Labour MPs block any Johnson deal, both of which seem likely).
So we will just go round and round on the never ending grim roundabout.
Mr. NorthWales, it is, although I'm a little surprised it isn't higher. The suicide rate is alarmingly high. As you say, it's mostly a male phenomenon (likewise homelessness).
By way of anecdote a work colleague from the North East said his father, a Leaver but a lifelong Labour voter who even voted Labour in 2015 and 2017, will vote Tory for the first time in his life out of fury that MPs are still blocking Boris delivering Brexit
Electoral Calculus shows Tory gains from the SNP in Scotland. That tells us all we need to know about Electoral Calculus.
Nevertheless the Tories really should win a majority, so I just don’t get where all this stuff about Brexit being over is coming from.
I think as soon as the electorate cotton on to the fact the Tories are on course for a majority they will conspire such that the Tories do not get a majority.
Everything tells me that the Tories are in a very poor position and are widely unloved.
I do not know I was at a family event over the weekend, school caretaker, teaching assistant, retired, company directors, chef from level below michelin, etc.
Almost to a person Boris was showing leadership to sort the children out. I was also surprised at the strength of the we voted out, so it must be out. This was the Tory shires and it is anecdotal as well, but I stick to my view very committed pro-EU types will never forgive Boris, but the rest will give him a go.
Yep, I’m inclined to agree. And the Tories will be massacred at the subsequent election.
I can't believe I'm going to have to vote for Corbyn's Labour. Christ.
Nobody has to do anything. You are making a choice that you value the EU more than solidarity with your Jewish compatriots.
Yeah yeah. I am Jewish you imbecile.
If you are comfortable voting for someone that commemorates the murderers of Jewish civilians, you do that. Given how much of my family has been killed by anti-Semitism, I could never do that and have a clean conscience.
This GE is going to boil down to voting for or against a No Deal Brexit. Anything else is noise. I am appalled by anti-Semitism but will probably be voting tactically for my Labour MP because I live in a marginal and the Tory is likely to be hardline Brexit headbanger. I also don't believe for a moment that my MP is an anti-semite.
Whatever way Brexit winds up going (or even if it doesn't happen at all), I think our unwritten constitution is really showing the strain at the moment and is going to need a serious rethink. I think the bare minimum is:
1) Have a less "inventive" speaker for a while. Actually I don't especially blame Bercow for doing what he sees fit to keep power in Parliament's court, but politicising the position is dangerous for reasons given in this very good debut thread header. (snipped)
2) Also topical at the moment, this Fixed Term Parliament Act is having some knock-on effects that I do not believe were intended, and which I believe are highly corrosive. What was intended to make hung parliaments more politically navigable (by making coalition agreements more easily binding) has in some ways made things worse, with zombie governments unable to function but perhaps unable to call an election either. The 2/3 supermajority thing has also always struck me as quite un-British - I've always hoped it wouldn't be used as a precedent to extend supermajorities into other areas.
3) There's an argument that politicians need to cool it with the referenda for a while. I like the fact that in theory they can break up political stitch-ups between the major parties, and I think e.g. Swiss voters get a much bigger voice about what their country should look like as a result of them, but in practice they don't seem to mesh well with our political system.We need to have a long hard re-think about referenda, how they're called, how they work (especially how "actionable" the question needs to be, access to Civil Service resources for both sides etc) and how both government and parliament should respond to the results.
Your last point I agree with almost unreservedly (though it might still be that the Brexit mess needs another one to resolve).
As for the first point, I think the Speaker controversy arises largely from the coincidence of an irretrievably hung Parliament, and all consuming national issue which cuts across party lines. I think any Speaker would have been deeply unpopular with at least one of the sides in the argument, and Bercow has at least attempted to allow Parliament to speak, rather than let an executive without a real mandate completely dictate events.
If the major parties are going to remain ideological, then messing with the office of the Speaker is merely distraction. I think in that circumstance, only PR would solve things.
I actually quite like the FTPA. Its interaction with the current Parliament has been unfortunate, but see my comments above re the Speaker. Some rewriting of it, to deal with lacunae which have made themselves obvious, and perhaps a modification of the 2/3rds hurdle, are in order
Boris was as poor as I can recall today coming under fire across the house and his blustering was hopeless.
In a GE he may do better but as far as I am concerned I want all these incompetent mps to face the electorate and let the voters decide
This HOC is finished and it is essential that Boris gets his GE for the 14th October
I am not even going to make any observation on the make up, I am past caring
I am with you Big G. It’s so depressing.
On Oct 14th, I understand it's a Jewish holy day of some sort, where they are expected to do no work. Apparently voting counts as work. Whether or not filling in a postal vote a few days before counts as working that day, I don't know, but given some religious (from any religion) rules I wouldn't be surprised if it it did.
Yes applying any logic to the rules of religion is the definition of a fool’s errand.
You are ignoring millenia of Jewish and Islamic legal thought there. Even if you don't agree with the starting premises, it is fiercely logical.
There haven't been millennia of Islamic thought, and you are wrong: it is loopy even on its own terms. God rested on day 7, he didn't say anybody else had to. Why is it only his Sundays we have to copy - if we are doing that why don't we also create heaven and earth every Monday?
Plus I'd be more impressed if the three main lots of them didn't give three different answers out of a possible seven to the question, which is the sabbath?
I am secular so don't believe in any of it, but from the starting premises it is very logical. In fact that is one of the problems of the fundamentalists. They follow logic wherever it goes, even if you get to stupid situations like being able to get in a lift but not being able to press the button.
And I was speaking about millenia in aggregate.
You were talking bollox
Sometimes the short answers are the most incisive.
By way of anecdote a work colleague from the North East said his father, a Leaver but a lifelong Labour voter who even voted Labour in 2015 and 2017, will vote Tory for the first time in his life out of fury that MPs are still blocking Boris delivering Brexit
Electoral Calculus shows Tory gains from the SNP in Scotland. That tells us all we need to know about Electoral Calculus.
Nevertheless the Tories really should win a majority, so I just don’t get where all this stuff about Brexit being over is coming from.
I think as soon as the electorate cotton on to the fact the Tories are on course for a majority they will conspire such that the Tories do not get a majority.
Everything tells me that the Tories are in a very poor position and are widely unloved.
I do not know I was at a family event over the weekend, school caretaker, teaching assistant, retired, company directors, chef from level below michelin, etc.
Almost to a person Boris was showing leadership to sort the children out. I was also surprised at the strength of the we voted out, so it must be out. This was the Tory shires and it is anecdotal as well, but I stick to my view very committed pro-EU types will never forgive Boris, but the rest will give him a go.
That's not been my experience but if the facts change I will change my opinion.
I am mainly interested in correctly judging markets at the moment to make money.
There is a wooden bridge that allows access across the River Lossie in Lossiemouth to the lovely East Beach that has been deemed dangerous and has been closed for safety. It has caused a stir in the community as they value their access but £500,000 is needed to restore it
Well, today the SNP have announced funding for a new bridge to resolve the problem
Of course Douglas Ross (conservative) is their mp
Yes G, and I bet the Tory offered nothing , zilch , nada. They can only carp from the sidelines. That balloon Carlaw today in reply to the Government programme could only say "unlike Nicola Sturgeon I do not dye my hair", they are deplorable. PS I have never heard or seen any utterance from Ross, he must be one of their silent donkeys.
By way of anecdote a work colleague from the North East said his father, a Leaver but a lifelong Labour voter who even voted Labour in 2015 and 2017, will vote Tory for the first time in his life out of fury that MPs are still blocking Boris delivering Brexit
Electoral Calculus shows Tory gains from the SNP in Scotland. That tells us all we need to know about Electoral Calculus.
Nevertheless the Tories really should win a majority, so I just don’t get where all this stuff about Brexit being over is coming from.
I think as soon as the electorate cotton on to the fact the Tories are on course for a majority they will conspire such that the Tories do not get a majority.
Everything tells me that the Tories are in a very poor position and are widely unloved.
I do not know I was at a family event over the weekend, school caretaker, teaching assistant, retired, company directors, chef from level below michelin, etc.
Almost to a person Boris was showing leadership to sort the children out. I was also surprised at the strength of the we voted out, so it must be out. This was the Tory shires and it is anecdotal as well, but I stick to my view very committed pro-EU types will never forgive Boris, but the rest will give him a go.
Yep, I’m inclined to agree. And the Tories will be massacred at the subsequent election.
I think as soon as the electorate cotton on to the fact the Tories are on course for a majority they will conspire such that the Tories do not get a majority.
Everything tells me that the Tories are in a very poor position and are widely unloved.
I also suspect Conservative support is a mile wide and an inch deep and when details of Boris's Beyond Brexit Brainwaves come out support will fall away. His rehashed Thatcherism will go down like a lump of cold sick in most places.
As for YouGov, it had the LDs at 17 then 21 and now 16 - completely hopeless. The Conservatives edge up as Farage is silenced but that will change if we get a GE.
Is it my imagination or does TMay have a "fuck you Boris" expression on her face?
No, of course not, I think someone just said something funny. May and Clarke didn't just sit there giggling all the way through it because of some uncontrollable schadenfreude inspired tic. They're not Dreyfuss out of Pink Panther.
It wouldn't surprise me if Mrs May voted with Ken Clarke tonight and loses the Tory whip. This would emphasise that the Tory Party has been temporarily taken over by BXP infiltraitors but the genuine Tory Party is still alive and kicking and is getting organised.
By way of anecdote a work colleague from the North East said his father, a Leaver but a lifelong Labour voter who even voted Labour in 2015 and 2017, will vote Tory for the first time in his life out of fury that MPs are still blocking Boris delivering Brexit
Electoral Calculus shows Tory gains from the SNP in Scotland. That tells us all we need to know about Electoral Calculus.
Nevertheless the Tories really should win a majority, so I just don’t get where all this stuff about Brexit being over is coming from.
I think as soon as the electorate cotton on to the fact the Tories are on course for a majority they will conspire such that the Tories do not get a majority.
Everything tells me that the Tories are in a very poor position and are widely unloved.
so a normal election then
It could simply be 2017 all over again but still further polarised too.
I'm not sure what that means in terms of seats. But I'm not sure if Corbyn would be an obstacle if it's the only way to block Boris in parts.
Boris was as poor as I can recall today coming under fire across the house and his blustering was hopeless.
In a GE he may do better but as far as I am concerned I want all these incompetent mps to face the electorate and let the voters decide
This HOC is finished and it is essential that Boris gets his GE for the 14th October
I am not even going to make any observation on the make up, I am past caring
I am with you Big G. It’s so depressing.
On Oct 14th, I understand it's a Jewish holy day of some sort, where they are expected to do no work. Apparently voting counts as work. Whether or not filling in a postal vote a few days before counts as working that day, I don't know, but given some religious (from any religion) rules I wouldn't be surprised if it it did.
Yes applying any logic to the rules of religion is the definition of a fool’s errand.
You are ignoring millenia of Jewish and Islamic legal thought there. Even if you don't agree with the starting premises, it is fiercely logical.
Why is it only his Sundays we have to copy - if we are doing that why don't we also create heaven and earth every Monday?
Is it my imagination or does TMay have a "fuck you Boris" expression on her face?
No, of course not, I think someone just said something funny. May and Clarke didn't just sit there giggling all the way through it because of some uncontrollable schadenfreude inspired tic. They're not Dreyfuss out of Pink Panther.
It wouldn't surprise me if Mrs May voted with Ken Clarke tonight and loses the Tory whip. This would emphasise that the Tory Party has been temporarily taken over by BXP infiltraitors but the genuine Tory Party is still alive and kicking and is getting organised.
That's an amusing one. They are all real Tories, but the current crop leading the way are definitely more demonstrative of what the party wants and stands for than May and definitely Clarke. They are the genuine deal, the party has just changed is all.
Well I never thought bracknell would ever have a Lib Dem MP having been Lib Dem Town Mayor of Sandhurst 95/96 he and Sarah Wollaston share several things in common bother being GPS and both selected in open primaries. I doubt the tories will try that again.
By way of anecdote a work colleague from the North East said his father, a Leaver but a lifelong Labour voter who even voted Labour in 2015 and 2017, will vote Tory for the first time in his life out of fury that MPs are still blocking Boris delivering Brexit
Electoral Calculus shows Tory gains from the SNP in Scotland. That tells us all we need to know about Electoral Calculus.
Nevertheless the Tories really should win a majority, so I just don’t get where all this stuff about Brexit being over is coming from.
I think as soon as the electorate cotton on to the fact the Tories are on course for a majority they will conspire such that the Tories do not get a majority.
Everything tells me that the Tories are in a very poor position and are widely unloved.
I do not know I was at a family event over the weekend, school caretaker, teaching assistant, retired, company directors, chef from level below michelin, etc.
Almost to a person Boris was showing leadership to sort the children out. I was also surprised at the strength of the we voted out, so it must be out. This was the Tory shires and it is anecdotal as well, but I stick to my view very committed pro-EU types will never forgive Boris, but the rest will give him a go.
On any measure Johnson's government is extremely chaotic. Unless these people approve of chaos or think competence is an overrated virtue in a government...
By way of anecdote a work colleague from the North East said his father, a Leaver but a lifelong Labour voter who even voted Labour in 2015 and 2017, will vote Tory for the first time in his life out of fury that MPs are still blocking Boris delivering Brexit
Electoral Calculus shows Tory gains from the SNP in Scotland. That tells us all we need to know about Electoral Calculus.
Nevertheless the Tories really should win a majority, so I just don’t get where all this stuff about Brexit being over is coming from.
I think as soon as the electorate cotton on to the fact the Tories are on course for a majority they will conspire such that the Tories do not get a majority.
Everything tells me that the Tories are in a very poor position and are widely unloved.
I do not know I was at a family event over the weekend, school caretaker, teaching assistant, retired, company directors, chef from level below michelin, etc.
Almost to a person Boris was showing leadership to sort the children out. I was also surprised at the strength of the we voted out, so it must be out. This was the Tory shires and it is anecdotal as well, but I stick to my view very committed pro-EU types will never forgive Boris, but the rest will give him a go.
Yep, I’m inclined to agree. And the Tories will be massacred at the subsequent election.
Agreed. 2024 = 1997 on steroids
Eh, fair price to pay for such an extended period in office, if they manage it. Frankly after so long in office you probably need a political massacre to rejuvenate.
There is a wooden bridge that allows access across the River Lossie in Lossiemouth to the lovely East Beach that has been deemed dangerous and has been closed for safety. It has caused a stir in the community as they value their access but £500,000 is needed to restore it
Well, today the SNP have announced funding for a new bridge to resolve the problem
Of course Douglas Ross (conservative) is their mp
Yes G, and I bet the Tory offered nothing , zilch , nada. They can only carp from the sidelines. That balloon Carlaw today in reply to the Government programme could only say "unlike Nicola Sturgeon I do not dye my hair", they are deplorable. PS I have never heard or seen any utterance from Ross, he must be one of their silent donkeys.
Corbyn Benn demanding an extension but offering no input into why or what should happen will be a factor at any GE. There is genuine despair imo at parliaments inability to agree any way forward. Despair that is ready to become anger and accordingly votes against the rebels
By way of anecdote a work colleague from the North East said his father, a Leaver but a lifelong Labour voter who even voted Labour in 2015 and 2017, will vote Tory for the first time in his life out of fury that MPs are still blocking Boris delivering Brexit
Electoral Calculus shows Tory gains from the SNP in Scotland. That tells us all we need to know about Electoral Calculus.
Nevertheless the Tories really should win a majority, so I just don’t get where all this stuff about Brexit being over is coming from.
I think as soon as the electorate cotton on to the fact the Tories are on course for a majority they will conspire such that the Tories do not get a majority.
Everything tells me that the Tories are in a very poor position and are widely unloved.
I do not know I was at a family event over the weekend, school caretaker, teaching assistant, retired, company directors, chef from level below michelin, etc.
Almost to a person Boris was showing leadership to sort the children out. I was also surprised at the strength of the we voted out, so it must be out. This was the Tory shires and it is anecdotal as well, but I stick to my view very committed pro-EU types will never forgive Boris, but the rest will give him a go.
On any measure Johnson's government is extremely chaotic. Unless these people approve of chaos or think competence is an overrated virtue in a government...
People gave May's government large leads even as it demonstrated extreme chaos and incompetence too - the British public love a good trolling when it comes to how much we will back things.
Note the language: "put their deal to voters". Their position is a referendum on a Tory Brexit. A Labour Brexit would be grand and wise and not need a referendum.
Clearly totally not communicated though, not only did Gab2 who reads pb not know, it was also quite hard work finding a source that explained the current position, not one of the previous ones. (I used duckduckgo, maybe google would have worked better).
Boris was as poor as I can recall today coming under fire across the house and his blustering was hopeless.
In a GE he may do better but as far as I am concerned I want all these incompetent mps to face the electorate and let the voters decide
This HOC is finished and it is essential that Boris gets his GE for the 14th October
I am not even going to make any observation on the make up, I am past caring
I am with you Big G. It’s so depressing.
On Oct 14th, I understand it's a Jewish holy day of some sort, where they are expected to do no work. Apparently voting counts as work. Whether or not filling in a postal vote a few days before counts as working that day, I don't know, but given some religious (from any religion) rules I wouldn't be surprised if it it did.
Yes applying any logic to the rules of religion is the definition of a fool’s errand.
You are ignoring millenia of Jewish and Islamic legal thought there. Even if you don't agree with the starting premises, it is fiercely logical.
Quite funny to see Phllip Lee's justification for abstaining on same-sex marriage.
He thought marriage should be left to "churches, other religious institutions and humanist groups."
Apparently the man's never heard of register offices. Amazing how out-of-touch our masters can be.
It's a good example of the hurdles Conservatives have to go through to join the Lib Dems though.
I'd certainly never do so.
I don't think they'd expect you to have a same-sex marriage.
My point is they are still two very different parties with different sets of values.
Not really. The One Nation Conservative values are very similar to the Yellow Book LDs. There are very strong similarities. There is much more in common between these two and the authoritarian right wing that now dominates the Tory Party
THAN the authoritarian right wing
The ORANGE Book
Sorry political colour blindness there. Orange does sound more appealing. thank you for the correctionl
Is it my imagination or does TMay have a "fuck you Boris" expression on her face?
No, of course not, I think someone just said something funny. May and Clarke didn't just sit there giggling all the way through it because of some uncontrollable schadenfreude inspired tic. They're not Dreyfuss out of Pink Panther.
It wouldn't surprise me if Mrs May voted with Ken Clarke tonight and loses the Tory whip. This would emphasise that the Tory Party has been temporarily taken over by BXP infiltraitors but the genuine Tory Party is still alive and kicking and is getting organised.
I do hope she does, but I doubt it. Interesting that she is sitting with him though
So..., have we reached the end of days of this government yet?
Not yet, we might tonight if Mrs May votes against the government and has the whip removed.
Is there any chance of that happening?
Well someone texted me 20 mins ago about the potential of it happening.
I cannot see it happening (but as her Premiership showed she would do anything to avoid No Deal because as a Unionist she thinks it will trigger the end of the Union.)
Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo
Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)
Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ
“This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically
Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.
Another very thin comfort blanket poll to get Tory loyalists through the impending night.
This matches the highest Labour vote with Yougov since mid-May - and is also the lowest LD vote share with this pollster. Labour entered the 2017 campaign with a 23% rating from Yougov.
Boris was as poor as I can recall today coming under fire across the house and his blustering was hopeless.
In a GE he may do better but as far as I am concerned I want all these incompetent mps to face the electorate and let the voters decide
This HOC is finished and it is essential that Boris gets his GE for the 14th October
I am not even going to make any observation on the make up, I am past caring
I am with you Big G. It’s so depressing.
On Oct 14th, I understand it's a Jewish holy day of some sort, where they are expected to do no work. Apparently voting counts as work. Whether or not filling in a postal vote a few days before counts as working that day, I don't know, but given some religious (from any religion) rules I wouldn't be surprised if it it did.
Yes applying any logic to the rules of religion is the definition of a fool’s errand.
You are ignoring millenia of Jewish and Islamic legal thought there. Even if you don't agree with the starting premises, it is fiercely logical.
There haven't been millennia of Islamic thought, and you are wrong: it is loopy even on its own terms. God rested on day 7, he didn't say anybody else had to. Why is it only his Sundays we have to copy - if we are doing that why don't we also create heaven and earth every Monday?
Plus I'd be more impressed if the three main lots of them didn't give three different answers out of a possible seven to the question, which is the sabbath?
I am secular so don't believe in any of it, but from the starting premises it is very logical. In fact that is one of the problems of the fundamentalists. They follow logic wherever it goes, even if you get to stupid situations like being able to get in a lift but not being able to press the button.
And I was speaking about millenia in aggregate.
You were talking bollox
Sometimes the short answers are the most incisive.
Bit rich coming from Malcolmg though. He normally speaks more nonsensical bollox than anyone on here
Clearly totally not communicated though, not only did Gab2 who reads pb not know, it was also quite hard work finding a source that explained the current position, not one of the previous ones. (I used duckduckgo, maybe google would have worked better).
Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo
Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)
Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ
“This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically
Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.
Sounds like there is a majority against an election.
Note the language: "put their deal to voters". Their position is a referendum on a Tory Brexit. A Labour Brexit would be grand and wise and not need a referendum.
Nope, read it again. It's a referendum (that's what putting it back to the people in a public vote means) whoever the PM is. Then then say they'd back Remain in that referendum if it's No Deal or a Tory Brexit. The part they're still being vague about is whether they'd campaign for or against their own deal, but they're now clear they'd have a referendum on it.
Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo
Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)
Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ
“This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically
Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.
These sudden shifts from triumph to despair remind me of a previous poster .
Total triumph for the Remainers today - the LDs acquiring a fine upstanding loyal conservative MP, MP after MP lining up to to give the the public another 3 months of Brexit delay with the generous present of £3+ Bn to the EU that that entails plus the lovely spectacle of remainers loyalty waving the blue and yellow whilst shouting over media interviews.
Surely the public will warm to this festival of wondrous news ?
There is a wooden bridge that allows access across the River Lossie in Lossiemouth to the lovely East Beach that has been deemed dangerous and has been closed for safety. It has caused a stir in the community as they value their access but £500,000 is needed to restore it
Well, today the SNP have announced funding for a new bridge to resolve the problem
Of course Douglas Ross (conservative) is their mp
Yes G, and I bet the Tory offered nothing , zilch , nada. They can only carp from the sidelines. That balloon Carlaw today in reply to the Government programme could only say "unlike Nicola Sturgeon I do not dye my hair", they are deplorable. PS I have never heard or seen any utterance from Ross, he must be one of their silent donkeys.
He seems to be popular with the fishermen
Small clique of rich Tories G, as I say I had not heard of him till you put his name up , invisible like the rest of them. They really do nothing for Scotland.
Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo
Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)
Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ
“This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically
Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.
Leaver paranoia or Leaver irrationality. Take your pick lol.
Note the language: "put their deal to voters". Their position is a referendum on a Tory Brexit. A Labour Brexit would be grand and wise and not need a referendum.
Nope, read it again. It's a referendum (that's what putting it back to the people in a public vote means) whoever the PM is. Then then say they'd back Remain in that referendum if it's No Deal or a Tory Brexit. The part they're still being vague about is whether they'd campaign for or against their own deal, but they're now clear they'd have a referendum on it.
You're thinking of their previous position.
It says whoever becomes "the new Prime Minister", specifically referring to the choice between Hunt and Johnson, not whoever becomes PM at any point in the future.
Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo
Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)
Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ
“This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically
Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.
Sounds like there is a majority against an election.
There’s a majority against an election that might cause a No Deal before the vote happens. Once that is resolved we’ll be going to the polls.
Clearly totally not communicated though, not only did Gab2 who reads pb not know, it was also quite hard work finding a source that explained the current position, not one of the previous ones. (I used duckduckgo, maybe google would have worked better).
Gab2 is just trolling . The position for sometime for Labour is , no to no deal ,any deal put to a referendum with remain on the ballot.
He might consider himself well enough to return to work, but there does seem something not right with the man.
Has his doctor signed him off the sick? Has his employer assessed him as fit enough to work? He's been off a while so some form of back to work programme would be in order. Or is it all a load of old bollocks that MPs can milk? I fecking hate Westminster and at the risk of going all Kevin Keegan, I'm absolutely loving watching it all rot around them.
Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo
Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)
Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ
“This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically
Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.
Sounds like there is a majority against an election.
There’s a majority against an election that might cause a No Deal before the vote happens. Once that is resolved we’ll be going to the polls.
It is clear there is a majority for Corbyn's extension bill to pass. That will extend Brexit for another three months and there will be a majority against an election until that deadline comes up. Then the same thing will happen again.
He might consider himself well enough to return to work, but there does seem something not right with the man.
I thought everyone knew. According to his Wikipedia page: "He has cerebral palsy, hemiparesis and is on the autism spectrum."
I wasn't referring to his physical and general mental health concerns, as he would no doubt say himself you can still do the job with those concerns, but about his behaviour, record as an MP etc etc.
Possibly. They got 18% across the South West in the EU elections, and obviously it would be a lot less than that given the voting system, not as many candidates and so on, but if Labour are to do badly, its possible to see the Greens doing pretty well.
Though personally I think the 'hold the nose and vote Labour' pull will be strong.
He might consider himself well enough to return to work, but there does seem something not right with the man.
I thought everyone knew. According to his Wikipedia page: "He has cerebral palsy, hemiparesis and is on the autism spectrum."
I wasn't referring to his physical and general mental health concerns, as he would no doubt say himself you can still do the job with those concerns, but about his behaviour, record as an MP etc etc.
After what we have seen from MPs over the last 2 years, O'Mara seems quite balanced and well-suited to the place.
Clearly totally not communicated though, not only did Gab2 who reads pb not know, it was also quite hard work finding a source that explained the current position, not one of the previous ones. (I used duckduckgo, maybe google would have worked better).
Gab2 is just trolling . The position for sometime for Labour is , no to no deal ,any deal put to a referendum with remain on the ballot.
Point me to somewhere, anywhere, where Labour say that a Labour government would put their deal to a referendum. You won't be able to because they haven't. Corbyn's position is that Tory PMs should put Tory deals to the voters, but Labour deals should not have to.
Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo
Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)
Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ
“This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically
Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.
Sounds like there is a majority against an election.
There’s a majority against an election that might cause a No Deal before the vote happens. Once that is resolved we’ll be going to the polls.
It is clear there is a majority for Corbyn's extension bill to pass. That will extend Brexit for another three months and there will be a majority against an election until that deadline comes up. Then the same thing will happen again.
Meanwhile Boris's genius idea of threatening to deselect MPs may cause additional defections. POBWAS
He might consider himself well enough to return to work, but there does seem something not right with the man.
Has his doctor signed him off the sick? Has his employer assessed him as fit enough to work? He's been off a while so some form of back to work programme would be in order. Or is it all a load of old bollocks that MPs can milk? I fecking hate Westminster and at the risk of going all Kevin Keegan, I'm absolutely loving watching it all rot around them.
TWS it is Westminster, they can bring them in, at death's door, on a stretcher. Place is a cesspit.
He might consider himself well enough to return to work, but there does seem something not right with the man.
I thought everyone knew. According to his Wikipedia page: "He has cerebral palsy, hemiparesis and is on the autism spectrum."
I wasn't referring to his physical and general mental health concerns, as he would no doubt say himself you can still do the job with those concerns, but about his behaviour, record as an MP etc etc.
After what we have seen from MPs over the last 2 years, O'Mara seems quite balanced and well-suited to the place.
Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo
Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)
Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ
“This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically
Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.
Sounds like there is a majority against an election.
There’s a majority against an election that might cause a No Deal before the vote happens. Once that is resolved we’ll be going to the polls.
It is clear there is a majority for Corbyn's extension bill to pass. That will extend Brexit for another three months and there will be a majority against an election until that deadline comes up. Then the same thing will happen again.
Meanwhile Boris's genius idea of threatening to deselect MPs may cause additional defections. POBWAS
He's thinking long term - proof of his obeisance to the Brexit Party and hoping votes gained there overcomes attempts to unite a fragile remain alliance of LD/Lab/Nationalists and former Tories.
Total triumph for the Remainers today - the LDs acquiring a fine upstanding loyal conservative MP, MP after MP lining up to to give the the public another 3 months of Brexit delay with the generous present of £3+ Bn to the EU that that entails plus the lovely spectacle of remainers loyalty waving the blue and yellow whilst shouting over media interviews.
Surely the public will warm to this festival of wondrous news ?
Tis a boost for Johnson.
Cant see him lasting 6 weeks of scrutiny a GE brings though
Well, I'm in Parliament Square to protest against Johnson, his prorogation and drive for no-deal Brexit, one more body to be counted, but - Lord above - left-wing speeches are dull.
Comments
I prefer the good old days when our constitution was based on letters to The Times using pseudonyms.
Plus I'd be more impressed if the three main lots of them didn't give three different answers out of a possible seven to the question, which is the sabbath?
https://twitter.com/samcoopernews/status/1168928789071638534
And I was speaking about millenia in aggregate.
I could see George Osborne and Jeremy Browne in the same party, for instance, but not Evan Harris and David Cameron.
There is a wooden bridge that allows access across the River Lossie in Lossiemouth to the lovely East Beach that has been deemed dangerous and has been closed for safety. It has caused a stir in the community as they value their access but £500,000 is needed to restore it
Well, today the SNP have announced funding for a new bridge to resolve the problem
Of course Douglas Ross (conservative) is their mp
Almost to a person Boris was showing leadership to sort the children out. I was also surprised at the strength of the we voted out, so it must be out. This was the Tory shires and it is anecdotal as well, but I stick to my view very committed pro-EU types will never forgive Boris, but the rest will give him a go.
That is dreadful
So we will just go round and round on the never ending grim roundabout.
Anyway, I must be off.
As for the first point, I think the Speaker controversy arises largely from the coincidence of an irretrievably hung Parliament, and all consuming national issue which cuts across party lines. I think any Speaker would have been deeply unpopular with at least one of the sides in the argument, and Bercow has at least attempted to allow Parliament to speak, rather than let an executive without a real mandate completely dictate events.
If the major parties are going to remain ideological, then messing with the office of the Speaker is merely distraction. I think in that circumstance, only PR would solve things.
I actually quite like the FTPA. Its interaction with the current Parliament has been unfortunate, but see my comments above re the Speaker. Some rewriting of it, to deal with lacunae which have made themselves obvious, and perhaps a modification of the 2/3rds hurdle, are in order
I am mainly interested in correctly judging markets at the moment to make money.
PS I have never heard or seen any utterance from Ross, he must be one of their silent donkeys.
Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)
Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ
As for YouGov, it had the LDs at 17 then 21 and now 16 - completely hopeless. The Conservatives edge up as Farage is silenced but that will change if we get a GE.
I'm not sure what that means in terms of seats. But I'm not sure if Corbyn would be an obstacle if it's the only way to block Boris in parts.
Of course, the converse would apply elsewhere.
I cannot see it happening (but as her Premiership showed she would do anything to avoid No Deal because as a Unionist she thinks it will trigger the end of the Union.)
You're thinking of their previous position.
Surely the public will warm to this festival of wondrous news ?
"He has cerebral palsy, hemiparesis and is on the autism spectrum."
The position for sometime for Labour is , no to no deal ,any deal put to a referendum with remain on the ballot.
I like the idea of all those LibDems with nothing better to do canvassing in Crookes (where else for the LibDems).
Just waiting for O'Mara to resign. "Ha, Fooled you, fooled you", O'Mara says. "I'm really well"
I fecking hate Westminster and at the risk of going all Kevin Keegan, I'm absolutely loving watching it all rot around them.
Though personally I think the 'hold the nose and vote Labour' pull will be strong.
They are completely different parties. Switching is never easy (except perhaps for Sarah Wollaston).
Cant see him lasting 6 weeks of scrutiny a GE brings though