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  • There’s a majority against an election that might cause a No Deal before the vote happens. Once that is resolved we’ll be going to the polls.

    Most likely, but if Con are about to lose a serious chunk of their MPs, and all those people look set to lose their jobs if there's an election, Corbyn might be able to form a government.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,889
    I think the green vote is the softest, followed by the brexit party vote. LD is a genuine repository for a pro EU position and CON for Brexit.
    Labour still have their USP of being best placed to stop the Tories in many constituencies I suppose.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Gabs2 said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    Sounds like there is a majority against an election.

    There’s a majority against an election that might cause a No Deal before the vote happens. Once that is resolved we’ll be going to the polls.

    It is clear there is a majority for Corbyn's extension bill to pass. That will extend Brexit for another three months and there will be a majority against an election until that deadline comes up. Then the same thing will happen again.
    Meanwhile Boris's genius idea of threatening to deselect MPs may cause additional defections. POBWAS
    There is going to be an election very soon. The Tory Party (and the Labour Party) are going to have a manifesto commitment on what to do about Brexit.

    If existing Tory MPs can't sign up to the Tory Manifesto, then of course they should not be standing for the Tory Party.

    People like Dominic Grieve lied last time. He signed up for a manifesto he did not believe in. He should not be allowed to do it again.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Gabs2 said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    Sounds like there is a majority against an election.

    There’s a majority against an election that might cause a No Deal before the vote happens. Once that is resolved we’ll be going to the polls.

    It is clear there is a majority for Corbyn's extension bill to pass. That will extend Brexit for another three months and there will be a majority against an election until that deadline comes up. Then the same thing will happen again.
    Will the public put up with yet another extension to Brexit?
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    I am completely convinced you are not SeanT.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,266
    Barnesian said:

    Is it my imagination or does TMay have a "fuck you Boris" expression on her face?
    No, of course not, I think someone just said something funny. May and Clarke didn't just sit there giggling all the way through it because of some uncontrollable schadenfreude inspired tic. They're not Dreyfuss out of Pink Panther.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Mrs May voted with Ken Clarke tonight and loses the Tory whip. This would emphasise that the Tory Party has been temporarily taken over by BXP infiltraitors but the genuine Tory Party is still alive and kicking and is getting organised.
    Yes let us get back to the anti No Deal May leadership which got a Tory voteshare of 9% in the European Parliament elections while the Brexit Party got 32%
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited September 2019
    Italian new government...

    M5S's members approve the new coalition in the online consulation

    SI - 63,146 votes (79.3%)
    NO - 16,488 votes (20.7%)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,889

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Quite funny to see Phllip Lee's justification for abstaining on same-sex marriage.

    He thought marriage should be left to "churches, other religious institutions and humanist groups."

    Apparently the man's never heard of register offices. Amazing how out-of-touch our masters can be.

    It's a good example of the hurdles Conservatives have to go through to join the Lib Dems though.
    What a strange thing to say. Surely it's a good illustration of the fact that there aren't any hurdles!
    There are hurdles in values and principles.

    They are completely different parties. Switching is never easy (except perhaps for Sarah Wollaston).
    The real homeless MPs will be May, Gauke, Hammond, Boles, Masterton those genuinely opposed to leaving without a deal but who do actually want to leave with a deal. Most MPs right now I expect either want to stay or just leave come what may
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    Boris is looking pretty trapped at the moment. He cannot even temper tantrum his way out of this mess.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    AndyJS said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    Sounds like there is a majority against an election.

    There’s a majority against an election that might cause a No Deal before the vote happens. Once that is resolved we’ll be going to the polls.

    It is clear there is a majority for Corbyn's extension bill to pass. That will extend Brexit for another three months and there will be a majority against an election until that deadline comes up. Then the same thing will happen again.
    Will the public put up with yet another extension to Brexit?
    What does 'putting up with it' mean? I'm sure BXP polling will skyrocket again, at the expense of the Tories, at which point Labour might well change their mind about a snap election.
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
  • Letwin's up.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,664
    Is anyone surprised the Bill only extends by 3 months to 31 Jan?

    Today it is almost still 2 months till the current deadline. OK, there is the prorogation but, even so, Remainers are already very worried about the deadline.

    So if we are still in the EU and go past 31 Oct surely everyone will be very keen to then extend the deadline beyond 31 Jan pretty much straight away (bear in mind the Christmas holidays will then be a factor).
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    I wonder if the Speaker could be persuaded to barricade the doors of the commons, and only let them all out when they've reached a unanimous decision?

    That's the sort of Brexit extension I could get behind.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,055
    @Philip_Thompson A very interesting article; thank you.

    Good evening,everyone.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,266
    AndyJS said:
    Fine, Boris will still refuse to extend and just watch the Labour Leave seats continue to drift over to him as Corbyn still prefers extension to delivering Brexit
  • Sammy Wilson there saying even if we leave without a deal the EU will come running afterwards to see if we can make a deal.

    The post hoc blink obviously the next psychological stage of managing their huge self deception.
  • Gabs2 said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    Sounds like there is a majority against an election.

    There’s a majority against an election that might cause a No Deal before the vote happens. Once that is resolved we’ll be going to the polls.

    It is clear there is a majority for Corbyn's extension bill to pass. That will extend Brexit for another three months and there will be a majority against an election until that deadline comes up. Then the same thing will happen again.
    Meanwhile Boris's genius idea of threatening to deselect MPs may cause additional defections. POBWAS
    There is going to be an election very soon. The Tory Party (and the Labour Party) are going to have a manifesto commitment on what to do about Brexit.

    If existing Tory MPs can't sign up to the Tory Manifesto, then of course they should not be standing for the Tory Party.

    People like Dominic Grieve lied last time. He signed up for a manifesto he did not believe in. He should not be allowed to do it again.
    Duh, MPs have disagreed with their frontbench since time immemorial. If the crap you are spouting applied universally and retrospectively, most of the current MPs and most of the current cabinet of lightweights and duplicitous wankers would have to resign from their parties. Leavers don't like Grieve because he has a brain and has called out Brexit for what it is - a pile of illogical horseshit
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    Omnium said:

    I wonder if the Speaker could be persuaded to barricade the doors of the commons, and only let them all out when they've reached a unanimous decision?

    That's the sort of Brexit extension I could get behind.

    He's worry that they might make a decision he was not in favour of if he did that.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    edited September 2019
  • HYUFD said:


    Fine, Boris will still refuse to extend and just watch the Labour Leave seats continue to drift over to him as Corbyn still prefers extension to delivering Brexit

    Today he said he'd follow the law, but maybe he was lying.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    This is incredible. The school year has started in Hong Kong and students around the city are drowning out the Chinese national anthem with "Do you hear the people sing?"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WaMBaW6Q6c
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:
    Fine, Boris will still refuse to extend and just watch the Labour Leave seats continue to drift over to him as Corbyn still prefers extension to delivering Brexit
    Boris confirmed today he wouldn’t break the law.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Quite funny to see Phllip Lee's justification for abstaining on same-sex marriage.

    He thought marriage should be left to "churches, other religious institutions and humanist groups."

    Apparently the man's never heard of register offices. Amazing how out-of-touch our masters can be.

    It's a good example of the hurdles Conservatives have to go through to join the Lib Dems though.
    What a strange thing to say. Surely it's a good illustration of the fact that there aren't any hurdles!
    There are hurdles in values and principles.

    They are completely different parties. Switching is never easy (except perhaps for Sarah Wollaston).
    The real homeless MPs will be May, Gauke, Hammond, Boles, Masterton those genuinely opposed to leaving without a deal but who do actually want to leave with a deal. Most MPs right now I expect either want to stay or just leave come what may
    I guess some might actually believe Johnson is actually telling the truth when he promises standing firm will secure a late concession by the PM and a fabulous deal in late October.

    Only kidding! Even MPs aren't that thick and gullible!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    Gabs2 said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    Sounds like there is a majority against an election.

    There’s a majority against an election that might cause a No Deal before the vote happens. Once that is resolved we’ll be going to the polls.

    It is clear there is a majority for Corbyn's extension bill to pass. That will extend Brexit for another three months and there will be a majority against an election until that deadline comes up. Then the same thing will happen again.
    Meanwhile Boris's genius idea of threatening to deselect MPs may cause additional defections. POBWAS
    There is going to be an election very soon. The Tory Party (and the Labour Party) are going to have a manifesto commitment on what to do about Brexit.

    If existing Tory MPs can't sign up to the Tory Manifesto, then of course they should not be standing for the Tory Party.

    People like Dominic Grieve lied last time. He signed up for a manifesto he did not believe in. He should not be allowed to do it again.
    Duh, MPs have disagreed with their frontbench since time immemorial. If the crap you are spouting applied universally and retrospectively, most of the current MPs and most of the current cabinet of lightweights and duplicitous wankers would have to resign from their parties. Leavers don't like Grieve because he has a brain and has called out Brexit for what it is - a pile of illogical horseshit
    It's not one thing or the other. Leavers don't like Grieve for that reason but he has also been dishonest in his intentions, and is a complete fanatic who remainers let get away with fanaticism because the like his goals.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited September 2019
    kle4 said:

    Boris is looking pretty trapped at the moment. He cannot even temper tantrum his way out of this mess.
    There is some justice in that. Johnson wants a deal, I believe. He wants other things more, which are incompatible with a deal: Brexit Party voters switching to him; no extension; no backstop.

    Why should Labour give him a free pass?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:
    Fine, Boris will still refuse to extend and just watch the Labour Leave seats continue to drift over to him as Corbyn still prefers extension to delivering Brexit
    Boris confirmed today he wouldn’t break the law.
    And you believed him? What will be more popular with the Tory members is the only quesiton of note.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427

    HYUFD said:


    Fine, Boris will still refuse to extend and just watch the Labour Leave seats continue to drift over to him as Corbyn still prefers extension to delivering Brexit

    Today he said he'd follow the law, but maybe he was lying.
    Boris? Lie? Don’t be so ridiculous.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:
    Fine, Boris will still refuse to extend and just watch the Labour Leave seats continue to drift over to him as Corbyn still prefers extension to delivering Brexit
    Boris confirmed today he wouldn’t break the law.
    And you believed him? What will be more popular with the Tory members is the only quesiton of note.
    I believe everything he says.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    If we end up with an election in October, will all future elections happen in October? Assuming, of course, that whichever party forms the government are stable enough to see out their five years.

    Weird if autumn elections become the new normal.
  • kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:
    Fine, Boris will still refuse to extend and just watch the Labour Leave seats continue to drift over to him as Corbyn still prefers extension to delivering Brexit
    Boris confirmed today he wouldn’t break the law.
    And you believed him? What will be more popular with the Tory members is the only quesiton of note.
    I believe everything he says.
    HYUFD does, and even believes things he hasn't said, just in case he might say them!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,889

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:
    Fine, Boris will still refuse to extend and just watch the Labour Leave seats continue to drift over to him as Corbyn still prefers extension to delivering Brexit
    Boris confirmed today he wouldn’t break the law.
    He's made lots of promises, one of which at least he's going to have to break...
  • HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:
    Fine, Boris will still refuse to extend and just watch the Labour Leave seats continue to drift over to him as Corbyn still prefers extension to delivering Brexit
    Isn't there still a cell in the Palace of Westminster where Parliament can send Bozo if he tries to defy them?
  • Mr Kle4, There is no fanaticism, only an opposition to the fanaticism of the ERG et al. He simply understands the law. You know, that thing that Boris thinks he might ignore.

    We need more Dominic Grieves in the HoCs, not less. We need a lot less thickos like Francois and Corbyn.
  • AndyJS said:
    Perhaps not so much of a threat if the next election is a little way off. Cooler heads might have prevailed by then.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:
    Fine, Boris will still refuse to extend and just watch the Labour Leave seats continue to drift over to him as Corbyn still prefers extension to delivering Brexit
    Isn't there still a cell in the Palace of Westminster where Parliament can send Bozo if he tries to defy them?
    Need to be careful not to martyr Boris
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Gabs2 said:

    This is incredible. The school year has started in Hong Kong and students around the city are drowning out the Chinese national anthem with "Do you hear the people sing?"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WaMBaW6Q6c

    There is precedent for singing to be used as a revolutionary act:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,920
    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    No. I’m in Sparta. This is not Sparta
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    AndyJS said:
    Seems to be Boris (and Cummings presumably) really have bought into their own legend, and are willing to gamble everything on winning over BXP voters with a scorched earth approach. It'll look ballsy as hell if it pays off, but if it doesn't it'll look remarkably dumb.
  • AndyJS said:
    Only way to treat a confidence vote.

    Trying to think which MPs of that that might lose the whip I'll be sorry to see go. Oliver Letwin is the only one I can think of.

    A while back I'd have said Ken Clarke too but he's overdue retirement.
  • kle4 said:

    So..., have we reached the end of days of this government yet?

    Not yet, we might tonight if Mrs May votes against the government and has the whip removed.
    Is there any chance of that happening?
    Well someone texted me 20 mins ago about the potential of it happening.

    I cannot see it happening (but as her Premiership showed she would do anything to avoid No Deal because as a Unionist she thinks it will trigger the end of the Union.)
    You would think it extremely unlikely, but a snppet on the news today indicated that she was sitting next to Ken Clarke in the House.

    Very odd.
  • rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    I see O'Mara never resigned
  • Noo said:

    If we end up with an election in October, will all future elections happen in October? Assuming, of course, that whichever party forms the government are stable enough to see out their five years.

    Weird if autumn elections become the new normal.

    In theory but, as 2017 showed, you can normally get a super majority for an earlier election.

    The present situation is, in a sense, the FTPA doing what it should. Johnson is using an election as a tactic to run down the clock, and Parliament are saying "no". Similarly, if a PM went a fortnight early to avoid a critical independent report (as Major did in 1997) Parliament might say "no". But six months or 18 months early in peacetime? Oppositions would normally roar "bring it on!" even if secretly nervous.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736

    kle4 said:

    So..., have we reached the end of days of this government yet?

    Not yet, we might tonight if Mrs May votes against the government and has the whip removed.
    Is there any chance of that happening?
    Well someone texted me 20 mins ago about the potential of it happening.

    I cannot see it happening (but as her Premiership showed she would do anything to avoid No Deal because as a Unionist she thinks it will trigger the end of the Union.)
    You would think it extremely unlikely, but a snppet on the news today indicated that she was sitting next to Ken Clarke in the House.

    Very odd.
    The BBC earlier had a tweet about someone asking her whether she would vote against the govt and she said "Wait and see." I assumed it was a joke.
  • Noo said:

    Gabs2 said:

    This is incredible. The school year has started in Hong Kong and students around the city are drowning out the Chinese national anthem with "Do you hear the people sing?"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WaMBaW6Q6c

    There is precedent for singing to be used as a revolutionary act:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution
    Of course, the 1974 Eurovision Song Contest provided a signal to begin the Carnation Revolution:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovision_Song_Contest_1974
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
  • Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited September 2019
    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    Mr Kle4, There is no fanaticism, only an opposition to the fanaticism of the ERG et al. He simply understands the law. You know, that thing that Boris thinks he might ignore.

    We need more Dominic Grieves in the HoCs, not less. We need a lot less thickos like Francois and Corbyn.

    You are being completely blinkered. Grieve is unwilling to accept compromise on what he wants, and will pursue it no matter the consequences. He is therefore the mirror image of the ERG spartans. I think remaining is better than no dealing, but I think it disgraceful that his being a fanatic gets denied on the basis that people like that he is intelligent and wants to remain in the EU. Being intelligent and wanting to remain in the EU do not mean someone cannot be an absolute fanatic. And I never said he should not be in the HoC, or that we should have more like Francois or Corbyn instead. But he does not get a pass for not accepting anything other than his own perfect solutions.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Re future elections in October, the FTPA is highly unlikely to survive the next majority parliament as currently constituted
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,266

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:
    Fine, Boris will still refuse to extend and just watch the Labour Leave seats continue to drift over to him as Corbyn still prefers extension to delivering Brexit
    Boris confirmed today he wouldn’t break the law.
    He won't, the sovereign will not give royal assent without the executive's agreement so no law will be broken
  • rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    It was a majority Remain seat. What makes you think the Conservatives would stand an earthly against an apparently popular sitting MP? Note, Nigel Farage came third in a two horse race here behind an independent pro-European candidate.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,920

    Italian new government...

    M5S's members approve the new coalition in the online consulation

    SI - 63,146 votes (79.3%)
    NO - 16,488 votes (20.7%)

    Are you sure? There was a poster on here who was very convincing about how new Italian elections were inevitable this year,
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    Good joke. What would be the point? There's no one to replace him who could command the confidence of the PCP, let alone be supported by the members.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Theresa May being kicked out of the Conservative Party a matter of days after she was a Tory prime minister would be one of the most extraordinary developments in British politics since about 1956.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    Someone sack the scriptwriter. This plot about a Tory PM withdrawing the whip from Ken Clarke and Theresa May is utterly ludicrous.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited September 2019
    Nigelb said:


    Your last point I agree with almost unreservedly (though it might still be that the Brexit mess needs another one to resolve).

    As for the first point, I think the Speaker controversy arises largely from the coincidence of an irretrievably hung Parliament, and all consuming national issue which cuts across party lines. I think any Speaker would have been deeply unpopular with at least one of the sides in the argument, and Bercow has at least attempted to allow Parliament to speak, rather than let an executive without a real mandate completely dictate events.

    If the major parties are going to remain ideological, then messing with the office of the Speaker is merely distraction. I think in that circumstance, only PR would solve things.

    I actually quite like the FTPA. Its interaction with the current Parliament has been unfortunate, but see my comments above re the Speaker. Some rewriting of it, to deal with lacunae which have made themselves obvious, and perhaps a modification of the 2/3rds hurdle, are in order

    Interesting response, thanks. I think I'm much more forgiving of Bercow than most Brexiteers, as I hope my post made clear - in his role, it was his job to make sure Parliament was heard, and this is what he did. I also agree with you that during contentious times, any speaker would have got dragged into things to some extent - every little action or inaction obsessively dissected for signs of bias.

    I do think, though, that in terms of pure politics, Bercow would have done better to emphasise his own neutrality. Instead, he's not been too subtle about where his personal preferences on Brexit lay. Since most MPs broadly agree with him, that might have been his signal that he's "on their side" but it doesn't help in terms of the flak he's getting or the risk of politcisation. In terms of the constitution, there's an argument that contentious times call on greater respect for precedent, and less radical re-writing of the rule-book. If he's pushed things a little too far, he might be setting dangerous precedents himself.

    Re FTPA, I can see some benefits to it but it still strikes me as a short-sighted piece of legislation, one very much intended for the purposes of a particular moment in time, rather than for the long-lasting and far-reaching effects that its' had. I'd like to see the return of the right to turn a vote on a piece of legislation into a proper confidence vote, as it would do something about the problem of "zombie governments" (can't legislate but can't get a fresh election).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,266
    edited September 2019

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
    The 'Establishment' ie the CBI, the City, the Times, the civil service, the judiciary, most MPs, the PM and Leader of the Opposition backed Remain.

    It was a majority of working class voters who delivered Brexit to regain sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration and they will never forgive the betrayal if they do not get it
  • kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    Good joke. What would be the point? There's no one to replace him who could command the confidence of the PCP, let alone be supported by the members.
    It is not a joke. He was seriously poor today and is going to sack maybe 25 of his colleagues doing something he and the ERG did themselves
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    good news for no deal supporters
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    Nothing more sickeningly Tory than assuming someone has merit because of who their grandfather was.....
  • kle4 said:

    So..., have we reached the end of days of this government yet?

    Not yet, we might tonight if Mrs May votes against the government and has the whip removed.
    If May has the whip removed it will show how far we've gone back to being a Conservative government and not a Poundshop Labour one. It will show we're not a 9% crew of abject failures and draw a line in the sand from her pathetic government.

    Hard for BXP to claim the Tories just want to brush off May's deal when May herself has been expelled.

    Good riddance to the authoritarian if she goes. Worst PM of our lifetime, an abject failure and the nastiest politician I've ever seen live. Begone.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    Visiting friends there on Sunday. Might have views thereafter.

    Mind, by Sunday all sorts of things could have happened. Aussies bowled out for 70, for example.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    They can only happen after a trigger event. Is he likely to be suspended from the Commons or convicted of an expenses offence or given a 12 month custodial sentence? He was recently arresed per the story but that would no doubt take awhile if he is guilty.
  • Can't have it unless there's a conviction, which may happen at some point but probably not in life of this Parliament
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    Implied probability of No Deal in 2019 down to 29% on Betfair.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    ab195 said:

    Nothing more sickeningly Tory than assuming someone has merit because of who their grandfather was.....
    Not quite where my mind went, but similarly I don't see why the hell it matters.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions.
    Just the two?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    ab195 said:

    Nothing more sickeningly Tory than assuming someone has merit because of who their grandfather was.....
    His trolling of Prescott with 'gin and tonic please steward' got old pretty quickly the entitled pr*ck
  • kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    Good joke. What would be the point? There's no one to replace him who could command the confidence of the PCP, let alone be supported by the members.
    It is not a joke. He was seriously poor today and is going to sack maybe 25 of his colleagues doing something he and the ERG did themselves
    I’d expect more than 25. We’ve seen the high profile names. The less well-known ones will wait for the vote itself to break cover. If I were picking a number I’d say 35.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    Good joke. What would be the point? There's no one to replace him who could command the confidence of the PCP, let alone be supported by the members.
    It is not a joke. He was seriously poor today and is going to sack maybe 25 of his colleagues doing something he and the ERG did themselves
    Right. And most of the remaining MPs will seemingly sit back and let that happen. And his members will by a majority love him for it. So even though it means he will have no majority, and is struggling to get the election he wants on the terms he wants, why would he resign?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637

    kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    Good joke. What would be the point? There's no one to replace him who could command the confidence of the PCP, let alone be supported by the members.
    It is not a joke. He was seriously poor today and is going to sack maybe 25 of his colleagues doing something he and the ERG did themselves
    A mere flesh wound


    Boris is Great HYUFD says so
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Noo said:

    If we end up with an election in October, will all future elections happen in October? Assuming, of course, that whichever party forms the government are stable enough to see out their five years.

    Weird if autumn elections become the new normal.

    Not unless the FTPA is repealed. Indeed any Parliament elected this Autumn will be dissolved at the end of March 2024 for an election to take place in the first week of May that year.Thus, it will be a 4.5 - rather than a 5 - year Parliament!
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,664
    October GE still 1.62 on Betfair.

    Very hard to call what happens - looks perfect for Labour to just box Boris in - he has nowhere to go.

    But remember a golden rule of PB - if you are having to explain what you are doing then you've already lost the argument. Labour refusing a GE may look very bad indeed - nobody will be listening to the detailed explanation of why.

    Yes, Labour certainly can delay until the No Deal Bill has passed (Friday?) but once that happens saying no GE becomes very dangerous.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    Gabs2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    I am completely convinced you are not SeanT.
    Indeed. The real Sean would never wait until
    7pm for his first gin.
  • rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    Visiting friends there on Sunday. Might have views thereafter.

    Mind, by Sunday all sorts of things could have happened. Aussies bowled out for 70, for example.
    That could be a match winnings innings too this series!
  • If Theresa May votes with the rebels she could become a candidate to be PM of a GNU.
  • HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
    The 'Establishment' ie the CBI, the City, the Times, the civil service, the judiciary, most MPs, the PM and Leader of the Opposition backed Remain.

    It was a majority of working class voters who delivered Brexit to regain sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration and they will never forgive the betrayal if they do not get it
    Working class perhaps, but the majority of workers voted remain. It was the economically inactive, rentiers and those reliant on benefits from the workers who tipped the balance.
  • kle4 said:

    They can only happen after a trigger event. Is he likely to be suspended from the Commons or convicted of an expenses offence or given a 12 month custodial sentence? He was recently arresed per the story but that would no doubt take awhile if he is guilty.
    It needn't be 12 months - can be any custodial or, for expenses fraud only, non-custodial sentence. Peterborough was a much shorter custodial sentence, and Brecon was non-custodial but expenses related. The unsuccessful Ian Paisley one was suspension, so we've had the full range.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    AndyJS said:

    Theresa May being kicked out of the Conservative Party a matter of days after she was a Tory prime minister would be one of the most extraordinary developments in British politics since about 1956.

    I hope she does defy the demand and have the whip withdrawn. Whether one things Boris doing that is justified and great, or madness, he's thrown down the gauntlet to those who have doubts about his strategy, and right or wrong lets see as many as who have doubts pick up that gauntlet, rather than shuffle past it whilst muttering unhappily to themselves.
  • kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    Good joke. What would be the point? There's no one to replace him who could command the confidence of the PCP, let alone be supported by the members.
    It is not a joke. He was seriously poor today and is going to sack maybe 25 of his colleagues doing something he and the ERG did themselves
    He and the ERG went against the whip on a confidence matter? Are you sure of that?

    I don't recall May making any vote a confidence matter, please can you tell me which vote she made an issue of confidence.
  • Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    An honourable man would. Boris might seek to merge with the Brexit party and accept a no deal pact.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    Well I’ve opened the Rioja.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    kle4 said:

    They can only happen after a trigger event. Is he likely to be suspended from the Commons or convicted of an expenses offence or given a 12 month custodial sentence? He was recently arresed per the story but that would no doubt take awhile if he is guilty.
    It needn't be 12 months - can be any custodial or, for expenses fraud only, non-custodial sentence. Peterborough was a much shorter custodial sentence, and Brecon was non-custodial but expenses related. The unsuccessful Ian Paisley one was suspension, so we've had the full range.

    Yes, sorry, got my 12 months mixed up with losing the seat automatically, rookie error. Any conviction, as you say, gets a recall going, a la Chris Davies the crook in Brecon.
This discussion has been closed.