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  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    CORBYNS SURRENDER BILL 320
    WE ARE NOT AT WAR BUT LETS CALL IT THAT 310

    or something like that
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Reverse SDP ferret
  • If Theresa May votes with the rebels she could become a candidate to be PM of a GNU.

    PM of a Remainer Government maybe.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153

    If Theresa May votes with the rebels she could become a candidate to be PM of a GNU.

    But she'd want to implement her withdrawal agreement and everyone on all sides of the House voted against it three times.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
    A post which puts some stress on my policy of not calling people stupid on the internet.

    Can you not think of any pro-Remain individual of recent years who exactly fits all of that description (except the bit about jrm, which is false)? If you can't, try to imagine the existence of someone like that. What would his existence do to your argument, do you think?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Unless a new faction is formed which can wreck the new Tory (Brexit Party) faction, that larger rump led by Boris could still yet win an election though, even with a split.
  • justin124 said:

    Noo said:

    If we end up with an election in October, will all future elections happen in October? Assuming, of course, that whichever party forms the government are stable enough to see out their five years.

    Weird if autumn elections become the new normal.

    Not unless the FTPA is repealed. Indeed any Parliament elected this Autumn will be dissolved at the end of March 2024 for an election to take place in the first week of May that year.Thus, it will be a 4.5 - rather than a 5 - year Parliament!
    Ah good spot. Yes, you're right - first Thursday in May if fifth year is indeed the rule as legislated.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153

    Well I’ve opened the Rioja.

    I thought you'd started about 10am to be fair! :D
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Into how many fragments?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,923

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    Yes, because the LibDems, Labour and Green won't stand, and the Brexit Party would.

    Also, when it was Bercow vs John Stevens vs Nigel Farage, then John Stevens comfortably beat Farage, which tells you quite a lot about the seat.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    GIN1138 said:

    If Theresa May votes with the rebels she could become a candidate to be PM of a GNU.

    But she'd want to implement her withdrawal agreement and everyone on all sides of the House voted against it three times.
    I see no path to her WA being approved, but I think the funniest outcome there would be is if Boris remains PM but somehow passed her WA, then loses an election. All that effort he put into trying to undermine her, only to have to pass her deal, then get punished for it, it would be great.
  • The Brexit Party are holding an election rally.

    https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1168947325743636481
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    GIN1138 said:

    Well I’ve opened the Rioja.

    I thought you'd started about 10am to be fair! :D
    I’ve actually been at work however I’m currently working my notice period so have a bit of downtime...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    The Tories started splitting under Cameron this is simply the end game
  • kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Unless a new faction is formed which can wreck the new Tory (Brexit Party) faction, that larger rump led by Boris could still yet win an election though, even with a split.
    Unless the defectors go to the Lib Dems and campaign with them there will be no split, just an amputation. The undemocratic losers who can't accept they lost the referendum will be gone - and fingers crossed May will reveal she was one of them all along which would explain a lot about the last three wasted years.

    Be odd if 35+ do go to the Lib Dems and stand again under their label, the Lib Dems could go into an election with nearly as many MPs as they had during the Coalition!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    edited September 2019
    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Oh well, so much for "Stop The Coup" then! :D
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    Yes, because the LibDems, Labour and Green won't stand, and the Brexit Party would.

    Also, when it was Bercow vs John Stevens vs Nigel Farage, then John Stevens comfortably beat Farage, which tells you quite a lot about the seat.
    I think it tells you more about how useless Farage is at FPTP elections.

    The Conservatives know how to fight a FPTP election and would have the data and organisation etc that Farage lacks.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316

    kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Unless a new faction is formed which can wreck the new Tory (Brexit Party) faction, that larger rump led by Boris could still yet win an election though, even with a split.
    Unless the defectors go to the Lib Dems and campaign with them there will be no split, just an amputation. The undemocratic losers who can't accept they lost the referendum will be gone - and fingers crossed May will reveal she was one of them all along which would explain a lot about the last three wasted years.

    Be odd if 35+ do go to the Lib Dems and stand again under their label, the Lib Dems could go into an election with nearly as many MPs as they had during the Coalition!
    Thats simply repeaqting the mistakes Camron made. To survive the Tories need to be a broad church
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871

    kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Unless a new faction is formed which can wreck the new Tory (Brexit Party) faction, that larger rump led by Boris could still yet win an election though, even with a split.
    Unless the defectors go to the Lib Dems and campaign with them there will be no split, just an amputation. The undemocratic losers who can't accept they lost the referendum will be gone - and fingers crossed May will reveal she was one of them all along which would explain a lot about the last three wasted years.

    Be odd if 35+ do go to the Lib Dems and stand again under their label, the Lib Dems could go into an election with nearly as many MPs as they had during the Coalition!
    Don't the LDs need to be careful not to be overtaken by former Tories? Even atypical Tories, that many en masse might fundamentally change the parliamentary party in ways the membership won't like.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    Yes, because the LibDems, Labour and Green won't stand, and the Brexit Party would.

    Also, when it was Bercow vs John Stevens vs Nigel Farage, then John Stevens comfortably beat Farage, which tells you quite a lot about the seat.
    It was said at the time that Farage was third in a two horse race.

    He's an interestingly awful candidate at the same thing me as being an undeniably successful national politician. It's almost as if as soon as people see him close up they realise he's a...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477

    Well I’ve opened the Rioja.


    Bastard. I’m having a dry week. Hard to stick to it!
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    GIN1138 said:

    Well I’ve opened the Rioja.

    I thought you'd started about 10am to be fair! :D
    Went to the bodega this morning and forgot to take it out of the car I now have some excellent rose wine vinegar after eight hours at 40 c
  • kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Unless a new faction is formed which can wreck the new Tory (Brexit Party) faction, that larger rump led by Boris could still yet win an election though, even with a split.
    Unless the defectors go to the Lib Dems and campaign with them there will be no split, just an amputation. The undemocratic losers who can't accept they lost the referendum will be gone - and fingers crossed May will reveal she was one of them all along which would explain a lot about the last three wasted years.

    Be odd if 35+ do go to the Lib Dems and stand again under their label, the Lib Dems could go into an election with nearly as many MPs as they had during the Coalition!
    And lose them all.
  • Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    The Tories started splitting under Cameron this is simply the end game
    The tories have been splitting for much longer than that. It's just that since 2010 and the rise of UKIP it has had a wedge driving it to split quicker
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    Visiting friends there on Sunday. Might have views thereafter.

    Mind, by Sunday all sorts of things could have happened. Aussies bowled out for 70, for example.
    That could be a match winnings innings too this series!
    I suspect Mr T, that if you and I were at a cricket match we would be enjoying each other's company.

    At a political rally...... maybe not so much!
  • My word, this is as embarrassing a Prime Ministerial response as I have ever seen. He is utterly clueless.
    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1168907087998586885
  • kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Unless a new faction is formed which can wreck the new Tory (Brexit Party) faction, that larger rump led by Boris could still yet win an election though, even with a split.
    Unless the defectors go to the Lib Dems and campaign with them there will be no split, just an amputation. The undemocratic losers who can't accept they lost the referendum will be gone - and fingers crossed May will reveal she was one of them all along which would explain a lot about the last three wasted years.

    Be odd if 35+ do go to the Lib Dems and stand again under their label, the Lib Dems could go into an election with nearly as many MPs as they had during the Coalition!
    Thats simply repeaqting the mistakes Camron made. To survive the Tories need to be a broad church
    The Tories were a broad church in 1993 but the Eurosceptics still needed to respect the whip on confidence motions.

    If todays Bastards don't want to respect the Tory whip then they need to go. Once we are over the hump of Brexit we can put it behind us and become a broad church but the first rule for MPs on confidence motions is you respect the party or you're not a part of it anymore. Not unreasonable.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800



    And lose them all.

    Conservative support is a mile wide and an inch deep. Once the scales fall from people's eyes and they see what a loser Boris is some will run to Farage and others will fade away but the centre and centre-left majority will be left to take over.

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Unless a new faction is formed which can wreck the new Tory (Brexit Party) faction, that larger rump led by Boris could still yet win an election though, even with a split.
    It's possible. The centrist/continuity Remain/continuity May faction (whatever you choose to label it) could simply disappear. I'm not at all convinced that there's a big electoral space to be occupied, at present, by a British version of the CDU (that's had about five minutes to organise.)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    has much changed ?

    everyone is focussing on the here and now but realistically this Parliament is fked and all parties know we need new elections. If its October or January doesnt make much difference unless the MPs can cobble together an exit deal and so far there is little sign of that.
  • HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
    The 'Establishment' ie the CBI, the City, the Times, the civil service, the judiciary, most MPs, the PM and Leader of the Opposition backed Remain.

    It was a majority of working class voters who delivered Brexit to regain sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration and they will never forgive the betrayal if they do not get it
    Working class perhaps, but the majority of workers voted remain. It was the economically inactive, rentiers and those reliant on benefits from the workers who tipped the balance.

    It was the over 50s - working class, middle class and upper class that won the referendum for Leave.

  • kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Unless a new faction is formed which can wreck the new Tory (Brexit Party) faction, that larger rump led by Boris could still yet win an election though, even with a split.
    Unless the defectors go to the Lib Dems and campaign with them there will be no split, just an amputation. The undemocratic losers who can't accept they lost the referendum will be gone - and fingers crossed May will reveal she was one of them all along which would explain a lot about the last three wasted years.

    Be odd if 35+ do go to the Lib Dems and stand again under their label, the Lib Dems could go into an election with nearly as many MPs as they had during the Coalition!
    Something like 1 in 3 tory voters are still original remainers. It would be most surprising if the majority of those can be kept on board when even Theresa May is not considered welcome. Abstentions galore at best.

    The idea the Tory party can be the Brexit party, kick out all remain leaning MPs but retain the support of the remain leaning voters is bizarre. We are in strange times so maybe they can pull it off, but Im very happy to back the no overall majority still which reflects the divided country.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871

    My word, this is as embarrassing a Prime Ministerial response as I have ever seen. He is utterly clueless.
    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1168907087998586885

    He's talking awfully quickly. I know he has a generally entertaining, rapid fire style, but that was awfully bumbling.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    It seems like Richard Nabavi was right.

    Boris Johnson is even worse than Theresa May.
  • rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    Visiting friends there on Sunday. Might have views thereafter.

    Mind, by Sunday all sorts of things could have happened. Aussies bowled out for 70, for example.
    That could be a match winnings innings too this series!
    I suspect Mr T, that if you and I were at a cricket match we would be enjoying each other's company.

    At a political rally...... maybe not so much!
    🏏🍻😎
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490
    stodge said:



    And lose them all.

    Conservative support is a mile wide and an inch deep. Once the scales fall from people's eyes and they see what a loser Boris is some will run to Farage and others will fade away but the centre and centre-left majority will be left to take over.
    There could be a complete realignment of voters. Once the inevitable election campaign starts the Lib Dems could be perfectly placed to pick up centre left and centre right voters. All they need is a clear manifesto.
  • My word, this is as embarrassing a Prime Ministerial response as I have ever seen. He is utterly clueless.
    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1168907087998586885

    I see May is sat next to Ken.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Chris said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Into how many fragments?
    One large lump and several little pieces, by the look of it. We've had various retirements, a couple of defections to the Lib Dems, some MPs may try to defend as independents. It's not impossible that some might try to organise into another new party, but there's no sign of that yet.
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    edited September 2019

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    has much changed ?

    everyone is focussing on the here and now but realistically this Parliament is fked and all parties know we need new elections. If its October or January doesnt make much difference unless the MPs can cobble together an exit deal and so far there is little sign of that.
    Once No Deal is gone (tomorrow?) how does Corbyn continue to defend refusing an election? If he does fight it off, the Gvt gets to monopolise the airwaves during Purdah and look to force an election of the back of the extension itself.

    Edit - prorogation not Purdah obviously. Too many Ps.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,824
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
    The 'Establishment' ie the CBI, the City, the Times, the civil service, the judiciary, most MPs, the PM and Leader of the Opposition backed Remain.

    It was a majority of working class voters who delivered Brexit to regain sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration and they will never forgive the betrayal if they do not get it
    Working class perhaps, but the majority of workers voted remain. It was the economically inactive, rentiers and those reliant on benefits from the workers who tipped the balance.
    A working barrister who voted Remain is on no definition working class
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited September 2019
    kle4 said:

    My word, this is as embarrassing a Prime Ministerial response as I have ever seen. He is utterly clueless.
    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1168907087998586885

    He's talking awfully quickly. I know he has a generally entertaining, rapid fire style, but that was awfully bumbling.
    People seem to like it, they did when he was mayor. Theres a certain fatigue with polished pretty boys like Blair and Cameron, it's why May had some personal support despite being shite, she was awkward and genuine. Boris is not genuine but he has personality and bumbling awkwardness that bloke down pub can chuckle at
    It's the Trump, appeal behind the radar, approach
  • kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:
    Seems to be Boris (and Cummings presumably) really have bought into their own legend, and are willing to gamble everything on winning over BXP voters with a scorched earth approach. It'll look ballsy as hell if it pays off, but if it doesn't it'll look remarkably dumb.
    Exactly what other option is there? If they allow no deal to be ruled out and an extension to be forced upon them, as May did earlier thois year, then within a month we will be back to BXP in the mid-20s and the right facing an existential wipeout in Parliament.

    There is literally no other strategy left. Which is why I'm surprised whenever someone on here is surprised at what Boris is doing. It's Zugzwang - nothing more, nothing less.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    ab195 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    has much changed ?

    everyone is focussing on the here and now but realistically this Parliament is fked and all parties know we need new elections. If its October or January doesnt make much difference unless the MPs can cobble together an exit deal and so far there is little sign of that.
    Once No Deal is gone (tomorrow?) how does Corbyn continue to defend refusing an election? If he does fight it off, the Gvt gets to monopolise the airwaves during Purdah and look to force an election of the back of the extension itself.

    Edit - prorogation not Purdah obviously. Too many Ps.
    He's not going to continue refusing if he rules out no deal is he? It'll be job done, the knees cut out from Boris in the eyes of BXP, so an election can be had.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    Visiting friends there on Sunday. Might have views thereafter.

    Mind, by Sunday all sorts of things could have happened. Aussies bowled out for 70, for example.
    That could be a match winnings innings too this series!
    I suspect Mr T, that if you and I were at a cricket match we would be enjoying each other's company.

    At a political rally...... maybe not so much!
    🏏🍻😎
    Two pints of IPA?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    There's not the slightest chance that he or anyone else in Westminster understand game theory, however they will act instinctively in certain ways. Some of that might reflect theory, but just by accident.

    I like the chess fork analogy.



  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    All these UK threads just repeat remain /leave positions.. Nothing has changed, nothing will change, even if we leave... the same arguments will perpetuate indefinitely..


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7MQrL_ABE0
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272

    It seems like Richard Nabavi was right.

    Boris Johnson is even worse than Theresa May.

    Boris has a 10% poll lead tonight
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    edited September 2019
    ab195 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    has much changed ?

    everyone is focussing on the here and now but realistically this Parliament is fked and all parties know we need new elections. If its October or January doesnt make much difference unless the MPs can cobble together an exit deal and so far there is little sign of that.
    Once No Deal is gone (tomorrow?) how does Corbyn continue to defend refusing an election? If he does fight it off, the Gvt gets to monopolise the airwaves during Purdah and look to force an election of the back of the extension itself.
    the 3 month extension is simply bonkers, nothing much can be achieved since there appears to be little consensus among the parties, make it a reasonable year and youll have a very sour electorate, Parlaiment need to be dissolved, fresh elections held and maybe even if it still remains hung they will all be able to save ome face and say fresh start,

    Whether the EU will put up with this nonsense is anyone s guess.
  • rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    Visiting friends there on Sunday. Might have views thereafter.

    Mind, by Sunday all sorts of things could have happened. Aussies bowled out for 70, for example.
    That could be a match winnings innings too this series!
    I suspect Mr T, that if you and I were at a cricket match we would be enjoying each other's company.

    At a political rally...... maybe not so much!
    🏏🍻😎
    Two pints of IPA?
    That will take us through the first four batting partnerships.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736

    My word, this is as embarrassing a Prime Ministerial response as I have ever seen. He is utterly clueless.

    Needs support from Paul Merton and Ian Hislop to make it remotely bearable.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    edited September 2019
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Unless a new faction is formed which can wreck the new Tory (Brexit Party) faction, that larger rump led by Boris could still yet win an election though, even with a split.
    Unless the defectors go to the Lib Dems and campaign with them there will be no split, just an amputation. The undemocratic losers who can't accept they lost the referendum will be gone - and fingers crossed May will reveal she was one of them all along which would explain a lot about the last three wasted years.

    Be odd if 35+ do go to the Lib Dems and stand again under their label, the Lib Dems could go into an election with nearly as many MPs as they had during the Coalition!
    Don't the LDs need to be careful not to be overtaken by former Tories? Even atypical Tories, that many en masse might fundamentally change the parliamentary party in ways the membership won't like.
    Yes, its back to the eighties, only with smaller hairstyles...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Unless a new faction is formed which can wreck the new Tory (Brexit Party) faction, that larger rump led by Boris could still yet win an election though, even with a split.
    Unless the defectors go to the Lib Dems and campaign with them there will be no split, just an amputation. The undemocratic losers who can't accept they lost the referendum will be gone - and fingers crossed May will reveal she was one of them all along which would explain a lot about the last three wasted years.

    Be odd if 35+ do go to the Lib Dems and stand again under their label, the Lib Dems could go into an election with nearly as many MPs as they had during the Coalition!
    Don't the LDs need to be careful not to be overtaken by former Tories? Even atypical Tories, that many en masse might fundamentally change the parliamentary party in ways the membership won't like.
    Yes, its back to the eighties, only with smaller hairstyles...
    wheres the shoulder pads ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    blueblue said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:
    Seems to be Boris (and Cummings presumably) really have bought into their own legend, and are willing to gamble everything on winning over BXP voters with a scorched earth approach. It'll look ballsy as hell if it pays off, but if it doesn't it'll look remarkably dumb.
    Exactly what other option is there? If they allow no deal to be ruled out and an extension to be forced upon them, as May did earlier thois year, then within a month we will be back to BXP in the mid-20s and the right facing an existential wipeout in Parliament.

    There is literally no other strategy left. Which is why I'm surprised whenever someone on here is surprised at what Boris is doing. It's Zugzwang - nothing more, nothing less.
    This is war, absolutely.

    Every second of every minute of every hour of every day must be focused on fighting the diehard Remainers until Brexit is delivered, no matter what the cost
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
    The 'Establishment' ie the CBI, the City, the Times, the civil service, the judiciary, most MPs, the PM and Leader of the Opposition backed Remain.

    It was a majority of working class voters who delivered Brexit to regain sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration and they will never forgive the betrayal if they do not get it
    Working class perhaps, but the majority of workers voted remain. It was the economically inactive, rentiers and those reliant on benefits from the workers who tipped the balance.
    A working barrister who voted Remain is on no definition working class
    Unlike public schoolboys I am not interested in someones political class. Economically active vs inactive explains the referendum vote fine.
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    kle4 said:

    ab195 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    has much changed ?

    everyone is focussing on the here and now but realistically this Parliament is fked and all parties know we need new elections. If its October or January doesnt make much difference unless the MPs can cobble together an exit deal and so far there is little sign of that.
    Once No Deal is gone (tomorrow?) how does Corbyn continue to defend refusing an election? If he does fight it off, the Gvt gets to monopolise the airwaves during Purdah and look to force an election of the back of the extension itself.

    Edit - prorogation not Purdah obviously. Too many Ps.
    He's not going to continue refusing if he rules out no deal is he? It'll be job done, the knees cut out from Boris in the eyes of BXP, so an election can be had.
    I don’t follow? Boris doesn’t have to rule out no deal. He observes that “they” have done that in law and seeks a majority to overturn it. Ultimately, the opposition surely has to let that election happen.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    kle4 said:

    ab195 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    has much changed ?

    everyone is focussing on the here and now but realistically this Parliament is fked and all parties know we need new elections. If its October or January doesnt make much difference unless the MPs can cobble together an exit deal and so far there is little sign of that.
    Once No Deal is gone (tomorrow?) how does Corbyn continue to defend refusing an election? If he does fight it off, the Gvt gets to monopolise the airwaves during Purdah and look to force an election of the back of the extension itself.

    Edit - prorogation not Purdah obviously. Too many Ps.
    He's not going to continue refusing if he rules out no deal is he? It'll be job done, the knees cut out from Boris in the eyes of BXP, so an election can be had.
    That doesn't stop the possibility of a Con/BXP pact if Boris commits to repealling the act and putting no deal back on the table.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    blueblue said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:
    Seems to be Boris (and Cummings presumably) really have bought into their own legend, and are willing to gamble everything on winning over BXP voters with a scorched earth approach. It'll look ballsy as hell if it pays off, but if it doesn't it'll look remarkably dumb.
    Exactly what other option is there? If they allow no deal to be ruled out and an extension to be forced upon them, as May did earlier thois year, then within a month we will be back to BXP in the mid-20s and the right facing an existential wipeout in Parliament.

    There is literally no other strategy left. Which is why I'm surprised whenever someone on here is surprised at what Boris is doing. It's Zugzwang - nothing more, nothing less.
    He could have genuinely tried for a deal for a start. As it is he's played games for the entirety of his brief time in office, banking on his initial polling not being a honeymoon period and telling everyone how much smarter he and Cummings are.

    Fair enough, he might yet win the game, but he's been pissing about since taking office, and is just going for huge gambles.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    ab195 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    has much changed ?

    everyone is focussing on the here and now but realistically this Parliament is fked and all parties know we need new elections. If its October or January doesnt make much difference unless the MPs can cobble together an exit deal and so far there is little sign of that.
    Once No Deal is gone (tomorrow?) how does Corbyn continue to defend refusing an election? If he does fight it off, the Gvt gets to monopolise the airwaves during Purdah and look to force an election of the back of the extension itself.
    the 3 month extension is simply bonkers, nothing much can be achieved since there appears to be little consensus among the parties, make it a reasonable year and youll have a very sour electorate, Parlaiment need to be dissolved, fresh elections held and maybe even if it still remains hung they will all be able to save ome face and say fresh start,

    Whether the EU will put up with this nonsense is anyone s guess.
    Especially if they are being told to expect to make no progress on anything whilst we are members
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
    The 'Establishment' ie the CBI, the City, the Times, the civil service, the judiciary, most MPs, the PM and Leader of the Opposition backed Remain.

    It was a majority of working class voters who delivered Brexit to regain sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration and they will never forgive the betrayal if they do not get it
    Working class perhaps, but the majority of workers voted remain. It was the economically inactive, rentiers and those reliant on benefits from the workers who tipped the balance.

    It was the over 50s - working class, middle class and upper class that won the referendum for Leave.

    56% of 45 to 54 year olds also voted Leave

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-referendum
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736

    Chris said:

    Boris dreadful performance today and the number of conservative rebels standing for Oliver Letwin must raise the possibility Boris will have to resign

    More like the Conservative Party is in the process of splitting.
    Into how many fragments?
    One large lump and several little pieces, by the look of it. We've had various retirements, a couple of defections to the Lib Dems, some MPs may try to defend as independents. It's not impossible that some might try to organise into another new party, but there's no sign of that yet.
    When you refer to "one large lump" ... ?
  • What time is the vote?
  • kle4 said:

    blueblue said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:
    Seems to be Boris (and Cummings presumably) really have bought into their own legend, and are willing to gamble everything on winning over BXP voters with a scorched earth approach. It'll look ballsy as hell if it pays off, but if it doesn't it'll look remarkably dumb.
    Exactly what other option is there? If they allow no deal to be ruled out and an extension to be forced upon them, as May did earlier thois year, then within a month we will be back to BXP in the mid-20s and the right facing an existential wipeout in Parliament.

    There is literally no other strategy left. Which is why I'm surprised whenever someone on here is surprised at what Boris is doing. It's Zugzwang - nothing more, nothing less.
    He could have genuinely tried for a deal for a start. As it is he's played games for the entirety of his brief time in office, banking on his initial polling not being a honeymoon period and telling everyone how much smarter he and Cummings are.

    Fair enough, he might yet win the game, but he's been pissing about since taking office, and is just going for huge gambles.
    There was never going to be a deal, and even if he get a deal, it would be voted down, and even if he got a deal through Parliament, BXP would have surged and wiped out the Tories at the next election anyway. What you're talking about could never have worked.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    He appears to have looked several moves ahead but hasn’t spotted the knight on the flank trapping the king.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
    The 'Establishment' ie the CBI, the City, the Times, the civil service, the judiciary, most MPs, the PM and Leader of the Opposition backed Remain.

    It was a majority of working class voters who delivered Brexit to regain sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration and they will never forgive the betrayal if they do not get it
    Working class perhaps, but the majority of workers voted remain. It was the economically inactive, rentiers and those reliant on benefits from the workers who tipped the balance.

    It was the over 50s - working class, middle class and upper class that won the referendum for Leave.

    On Referendum day we had a big Remain poster up. And we had the local cleaners in. My wife asked the two thirty (I think) year olds whether they'd voted yet.
    Yes, they said, but not the way you did!

    Meanwhile I was handing out pre-Remain leaflets in the local market. A delivery driver pulled up, dropped off in one of the market place shops. 'Have you voted' I said. 'Yes, but not you're way'. And before I could argue he was back in his van and off.

    Often thought about that!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    JRM going for a cricketing metaphor of his own.
  • We are watching the Corn Laws Redux. History is being written tonight as the Tory party splits before our eyes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
    The 'Establishment' ie the CBI, the City, the Times, the civil service, the judiciary, most MPs, the PM and Leader of the Opposition backed Remain.

    It was a majority of working class voters who delivered Brexit to regain sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration and they will never forgive the betrayal if they do not get it
    Working class perhaps, but the majority of workers voted remain. It was the economically inactive, rentiers and those reliant on benefits from the workers who tipped the balance.
    A working barrister who voted Remain is on no definition working class
    Unlike public schoolboys I am not interested in someones political class. Economically active vs inactive explains the referendum vote fine.
    No contemptuous arrogant patronising liberal elitists who refused to listen to the people and still don't explains the result perfectly
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    ab195 said:

    kle4 said:

    ab195 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    has much changed ?

    everyone is focussing on the here and now but realistically this Parliament is fked and all parties know we need new elections. If its October or January doesnt make much difference unless the MPs can cobble together an exit deal and so far there is little sign of that.
    Once No Deal is gone (tomorrow?) how does Corbyn continue to defend refusing an election? If he does fight it off, the Gvt gets to monopolise the airwaves during Purdah and look to force an election of the back of the extension itself.

    Edit - prorogation not Purdah obviously. Too many Ps.
    He's not going to continue refusing if he rules out no deal is he? It'll be job done, the knees cut out from Boris in the eyes of BXP, so an election can be had.
    I don’t follow? Boris doesn’t have to rule out no deal. He observes that “they” have done that in law and seeks a majority to overturn it. Ultimately, the opposition surely has to let that election happen.
    It actually sets up Boris' Parliament Vs The People election better than Boris could himself...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316

    We are watching the Corn Laws Redux. History is being written tonight as the Tory party splits before our eyes.

    is that a bad thing ?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    So if Boris sets 14 Oct and agrees any amendment to this date would require majority support of the party leaders of parties currently represented at parliament I can't see how labour vote against without losing buckets of support
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,923

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    Yes, because the LibDems, Labour and Green won't stand, and the Brexit Party would.

    Also, when it was Bercow vs John Stevens vs Nigel Farage, then John Stevens comfortably beat Farage, which tells you quite a lot about the seat.
    I think it tells you more about how useless Farage is at FPTP elections.

    The Conservatives know how to fight a FPTP election and would have the data and organisation etc that Farage lacks.
    If you want £10 on the result, I think it might be fun.

    There are lots of combos at work. Will he get shunted off to the Lords as ex-Speakers are want to be? If not, who will stand against him? When will the election be?

    Bercow wins Buckingham at the next General Election, I win.
    Anybody else, you win.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited September 2019
    kle4 said:

    blueblue said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:
    Seems to be Boris (and Cummings presumably) really have bought into their own legend, and are willing to gamble everything on winning over BXP voters with a scorched earth approach. It'll look ballsy as hell if it pays off, but if it doesn't it'll look remarkably dumb.
    Exactly what other option is there? If they allow no deal to be ruled out and an extension to be forced upon them, as May did earlier thois year, then within a month we will be back to BXP in the mid-20s and the right facing an existential wipeout in Parliament.

    There is literally no other strategy left. Which is why I'm surprised whenever someone on here is surprised at what Boris is doing. It's Zugzwang - nothing more, nothing less.
    He could have genuinely tried for a deal for a start. As it is he's played games for the entirety of his brief time in office, banking on his initial polling not being a honeymoon period and telling everyone how much smarter he and Cummings are.

    Fair enough, he might yet win the game, but he's been pissing about since taking office, and is just going for huge gambles.
    Arrant nonsense. The EU will only start edging towards a new deal - if it ever does - when it sees that all other routes have been closed off. In that light, what was Boris meant to do which he has not done?

    He’s in a shit place thanks to TMay’s crass incompetence. I hope she gets kicked out of her party
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316

    So if Boris sets 14 Oct and agrees any amendment to this date would require majority support of the party leaders of parties currently represented at parliament I can't see how labour vote against without losing buckets of support

    Theyre counting on the tribal vote.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    He appears to have looked several moves ahead but hasn’t spotted the knight on the flank trapping the king.
    Knights on the rim are dim
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I wouldn't play this market. Why?

    I think Bercow will stand at the coming General Election, and - even if the Conservatives stand against him - will win. This means there is a fair likelihood the bet will not payout for some time.

    It requires, effectively, the Conservatives to win enough of a majority that they wish to take on the Speaker. Possible? Yes. But anything other than a decent majority (i.e. 25+) sees him stay in place.

    You really think Bercow would win in Buckingham against a Conservative candidate?
    Visiting friends there on Sunday. Might have views thereafter.

    Mind, by Sunday all sorts of things could have happened. Aussies bowled out for 70, for example.
    That could be a match winnings innings too this series!
    I suspect Mr T, that if you and I were at a cricket match we would be enjoying each other's company.

    At a political rally...... maybe not so much!
    🏏🍻😎
    Two pints of IPA?
    That will take us through the first four batting partnerships.
    Aussie or Brit? Then it's your round!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    edited September 2019

    We are watching the Corn Laws Redux. History is being written tonight as the Tory party splits before our eyes.

    The Tory party has a 10% lead in tonight's poll, Corbyn Labour is polling worse than under Foot, the Boris Tories are fine thanks
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    JRM too pleased with himself by half. And subconsciously modelling his style on John Bercow, of all people).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    So if Boris sets 14 Oct and agrees any amendment to this date would require majority support of the party leaders of parties currently represented at parliament I can't see how labour vote against without losing buckets of support

    Quite easily - you point out that Boris is untrustworthy...
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    So if Boris sets 14 Oct and agrees any amendment to this date would require majority support of the party leaders of parties currently represented at parliament I can't see how labour vote against without losing buckets of support

    Theyre counting on the tribal vote.
    2015 Scotland redux in the north and Midlands perhaps
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:


    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”

    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
    The 'Establishment' ie the CBI, the City, the Times, the civil service, the judiciary, most MPs, the PM and Leader of the Opposition backed Remain.

    It was a majority of working class voters who delivered Brexit to regain sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration and they will never forgive the betrayal if they do not get it
    Working class perhaps, but the majority of workers voted remain. It was the economically inactive, rentiers and those reliant on benefits from the workers who tipped the balance.
    A working barrister who voted Remain is on no definition working class
    Unlike public schoolboys I am not interested in someones political class. Economically active vs inactive explains the referendum vote fine.
    No contemptuous arrogant patronising liberal elitists who refused to listen to the people and still don't explains the result perfectly
    It's like trying to decipher Finnegans Wake at times.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    kle4 said:

    ab195 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    has much changed ?

    everyone is focussing on the here and now but realistically this Parliament is fked and all parties know we need new elections. If its October or January doesnt make much difference unless the MPs can cobble together an exit deal and so far there is little sign of that.
    Once No Deal is gone (tomorrow?) how does Corbyn continue to defend refusing an election? If he does fight it off, the Gvt gets to monopolise the airwaves during Purdah and look to force an election of the back of the extension itself.

    Edit - prorogation not Purdah obviously. Too many Ps.
    He's not going to continue refusing if he rules out no deal is he? It'll be job done, the knees cut out from Boris in the eyes of BXP, so an election can be had.
    Does that cut off Boris' knees? Boris can say with a majority he will repeal the law.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    GIN1138 said:

    kle4 said:

    ab195 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    has much changed ?

    everyone is focussing on the here and now but realistically this Parliament is fked and all parties know we need new elections. If its October or January doesnt make much difference unless the MPs can cobble together an exit deal and so far there is little sign of that.
    Once No Deal is gone (tomorrow?) how does Corbyn continue to defend refusing an election? If he does fight it off, the Gvt gets to monopolise the airwaves during Purdah and look to force an election of the back of the extension itself.

    Edit - prorogation not Purdah obviously. Too many Ps.
    He's not going to continue refusing if he rules out no deal is he? It'll be job done, the knees cut out from Boris in the eyes of BXP, so an election can be had.
    That doesn't stop the possibility of a Con/BXP pact if Boris commits to repealling the act and putting no deal back on the table.
    Farage said the price of a pact would be Boris 100% committing to No Deal, not even trying for a deal.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    eek said:

    So if Boris sets 14 Oct and agrees any amendment to this date would require majority support of the party leaders of parties currently represented at parliament I can't see how labour vote against without losing buckets of support

    Quite easily - you point out that Boris is untrustworthy...
    That's why the act has the agreement of party leaders bit attached.... meaning he cannot legally alter the date by statute without majority support of the other leaders
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    We are watching the Corn Laws Redux. History is being written tonight as the Tory party splits before our eyes.

    is that a bad thing ?
    It's too good to be true. I hope it happens.
    And then the Labour Party.
    And then we get PR and every election will consist of 7-8 parties offering nuanced retail politics.
    And we have an end to the internal party squabbles and idiotic psychodramas that have been a growing feature of our politics for decades.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Quick question, if the Govts decision to prorogue can be taken to court, Can The Speakers decision also be taken to court?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited September 2019
    blueblue said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:
    Seems to be Boris (and Cummings presumably) really have bought into their own legend, and are willing to gamble everything on winning over BXP voters with a scorched earth approach. It'll look ballsy as hell if it pays off, but if it doesn't it'll look remarkably dumb.
    Exactly what other option is there? If they allow no deal to be ruled out and an extension to be forced upon them, as May did earlier thois year, then within a month we will be back to BXP in the mid-20s and the right facing an existential wipeout in Parliament.

    There is literally no other strategy left. Which is why I'm surprised whenever someone on here is surprised at what Boris is doing. It's Zugzwang - nothing more, nothing less.
    I see there are plenty of chess analogies tonight ;)

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,923
    As an aside, the Markit PMIs are sub 50 now in:

    the US
    the UK
    the Eurozone
    Canada
    Mexico
    Japan

    China is marginally above.

    If you want to have an election, I'd have it now. Because those PMIs tend to lead changes in unemployment rates by six months.
  • Quick question, if the Govts decision to prorogue can be taken to court, Can The Speakers decision also be taken to court?

    No.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris will be delighted with the BBC six. All about No Surrender by Bojo

    Meanwhile the optics shown are EU flags flying above Parliament Sq and T May chortling over Boris’ discomfort (apparently)

    Could easily be wrong, but I think this plays very well for BJ

    “This is my analysis. And if you don’t like it, I have others.”
    No, I don’t. I expect a significant poll shift to the Tories. If I’m wrong, shoot me. Metaphorically

    Then why on earth do you think Brexit is finished? It’s pretty clear there’s going to be an election. It’s likely the Tories will win it and, when they do, we’ll leave.

    That’s a fair point. I seem to hold two entirely contradictory positions. 1. The tories will gain from patriotic voter frustration, and 2. The Establishment is successfully maneuvering against Brexit

    I sincerely believe both of those and I can only console myself with the thought that I fit Jane Austen’s definition of irony, to a T

    Let me have my first gin of the day and get back to you with a synthesis.
    Oh dear, I will have to repeat the Establishment thingy again. Boris Johnson is Eton and Oxford educated, a Tory, an MP, a Privy Councillor, an MP, a Prime Minister, is extremely rich, speaks as though he has 5 plums shoved up his arse, and is best buddies with Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fucking "Establishment" can anyone get? ! The "Establishment" owns Brexit. It is a distraction away form more important things. It is the new opiate of the masses, and you, along with just under 52% have been duped!
    The 'Establishment' ie the CBI, the City, the Times, the civil service, the judiciary, most MPs, the PM and Leader of the Opposition backed Remain.

    It was a majority of working class voters who delivered Brexit to regain sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration and they will never forgive the betrayal if they do not get it
    Working class perhaps, but the majority of workers voted remain. It was the economically inactive, rentiers and those reliant on benefits from the workers who tipped the balance.

    It was the over 50s - working class, middle class and upper class that won the referendum for Leave.

    56% of 45 to 54 year olds also voted Leave

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-referendum
    Now 56% of 48 to 57 year olds....
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    edited September 2019

    We are watching the Corn Laws Redux. History is being written tonight as the Tory party splits before our eyes.

    Possibly.

    Although keep in mind the numbers voting against Boris actually quite small and consist mostly of the old guard.

    The direction of the Tory Party has been clear since Thatchers Bruges speech so in a lot of ways this is a final roll of the dice of the EU-Loving Old Guard.

    Once they're out the Party tonight the Tories will almost certainly coalesce around whatever it is they become under Boris (or whoever follows him)

    Tonight is the final act of a drama that began with the knifing of Mrs Thacther.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, the Markit PMIs are sub 50 now in:

    the US
    the UK
    the Eurozone
    Canada
    Mexico
    Japan

    China is marginally above.

    If you want to have an election, I'd have it now. Because those PMIs tend to lead changes in unemployment rates by six months.

    does anyone believe the Chinese one ?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Danny565 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kle4 said:

    ab195 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sky news saying Nick Brown chief whip at PLP meeting said Labour would not vote for GE.On Johnsons terms .
    Johnson could stew in his own juice.

    Fans of chess on this forum might consider the analogy of a fork.
    Perhaps Cummings is not as good at game theory as he thinks.
    has much changed ?

    everyone is focussing on the here and now but realistically this Parliament is fked and all parties know we need new elections. If its October or January doesnt make much difference unless the MPs can cobble together an exit deal and so far there is little sign of that.
    Once No Deal is gone (tomorrow?) how does Corbyn continue to defend refusing an election? If he does fight it off, the Gvt gets to monopolise the airwaves during Purdah and look to force an election of the back of the extension itself.

    Edit - prorogation not Purdah obviously. Too many Ps.
    He's not going to continue refusing if he rules out no deal is he? It'll be job done, the knees cut out from Boris in the eyes of BXP, so an election can be had.
    That doesn't stop the possibility of a Con/BXP pact if Boris commits to repealling the act and putting no deal back on the table.
    Farage said the price of a pact would be Boris 100% committing to No Deal, not even trying for a deal.
    Farage will read the runes and I'm sure will be 'sadly unable' to field candidates everywhere. Notably having trouble in Tory leave seats and tight marginals
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:



    A working barrister who voted Remain is on no definition working class

    No. Karl Marx defined the working class as individuals who sell their labour power for wages and who do not own the means of production. Before Marx, in medieval and early modern Europe, a lawyer, craftsman and peasant were all considered to be part of the same social unit, a third estate of people who were neither aristocrats nor church officials. So there Is at least one definition of working class that would include employed lawyers. It’s a more recent sociological approach that defines class according to income levels or type of wage labour.
This discussion has been closed.