I remember hearing a PR man from Carling proudly boasting that they have a 7 day turnaround from hops and water to pouring the pint in the pub.
I think that is something they should be ashamed of not proud of.
Whatever the pros and cons of Carling is - remember it's a Brisky Yoon campaign to stop the Scottish Groat in its tracks (Tennents being a very similar beverage but brewed in Glasgow)
So remember Yoons
#Carling4Tennents4indyref2
And English comrades have their own hashtag with tennents being pretty much unavailable in England-
#Whiskey4Whisky4indyref2.
Tennants may be cooking lager but it is far and away better than Carling.
Tennents make terrible lager but they made the best ever lager advert.
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
No, there's no hope.
We shall probably end up No Dealing. A US trade deal will turn out to be a chimera. And the imbalances in the UK economy will bite us hard.
A difficult 2 to 3 years will either be followed by us accepting something that looks just like the Withdrawal Agreement (so, we had a nasty recession all for nothing), or a true socialist government is elected, as the all previous problems were due to lack of government intervention.
The campaign both of you voted for made EEA-EFTA impossible, I mean have you forgotten all those campaign pledges to leave the Single Market?
Things have moved on. The WA and PD were rejected.
So this is about finding a compromise that works now. And yes it might even require ratification in a second referendum.
Why should Scotland accept second-class status when they could be a full member of the EU? A soft Brexit makes it much harder to run a project fear campaign against Independence.
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
You know well enough how this kind of analysis is obtained Ben
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
The Vote Leave campaign also promised that there would be a deal. If they can break that promise by going for No Deal then the other promises they made can also be ignored.
I'll save them the time for any future instances. The only point of this government is to keep Boris in power as PM. To achieve that, it will do anything at all in whatever way it can.
Any statement, policy or other pronouncement by this government should be viewed through this prism. All else is flim flam.
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
The Vote Leave campaign also promised that there would be a deal. If they can break that promise by going for No Deal then the other promises they made can also be ignored.
“There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it… Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave… The idea that our trade will suffer because we stop imposing terrible rules such as the Clinical Trial Directive is silly.” - Vote Leave
“We will negotiate a UK-EU Treaty that enables us 1) to continue cooperating in many areas just as now (e.g. maritime surveillance), 2) to deepen cooperation in some areas (e.g. scientific collaborations and counter-terrorism)” – Vote Leave
I'll save them the time for any future instances. The only point of this government is to keep Boris in power as PM. To achieve that, it will do anything at all in whatever way it can.
Any statement, policy or other pronouncement by this government should be viewed through this prism. All else is flim flam.
Is anyone surprised? We know that Boris appears to be utterly spineless and every so often he does seem to do his best to prove it
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Perhaps it will replace the "No true Scotsman" fallacy - especially after Scotland leaves
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Orders from Party Central. Cameron ordered a "Remain" verdict....
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
No, there's no hope.
We shall probably end up No Dealing. A US trade deal will turn out to be a chimera. And the imbalances in the UK economy will bite us hard.
A difficult 2 to 3 years will either be followed by us accepting something that looks just like the Withdrawal Agreement (so, we had a nasty recession all for nothing), or a true socialist government is elected, as the all previous problems were due to lack of government intervention.
The campaign both of you voted for made EEA-EFTA impossible, I mean have you forgotten all those campaign pledges to leave the Single Market?
Things have moved on. The WA and PD were rejected.
So this is about finding a compromise that works now. And yes it might even require ratification in a second referendum.
Why should Scotland accept second-class status when they could be a full member of the EU? A soft Brexit makes it much harder to run a project fear campaign against Independence.
If it's a total clusterfuck as claimed, I would have thought it would make it easier. After all, what Scot would willingly go through a second round of food shortages, no medicine and being an international pariah just to get tartan passports?
But actually, I don't think it will be. The problem is too many people are taking 'worst case scenarios' and running with them as though they are gospel facts. Rather like those people who claimed in 1970 that due to climate change we would all die of starvation by 1995 due to overpopulation and water scarcity.
The problem with doing this is that when they world doesn't end, people will laugh and ignore the predictions - and the actual problems that undoubtedly will be caused, which is basically manufacturing leaving this country to be nearer its main market and comply with overseas trading arrangements, which may take five years and may take ten but will ultimately leave us all much worse off, especially in the North of England, the Central Belt and the Midlands.
However, if that does come about ironically by discrediting Project Fear it will make Scottish independence more likely...
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
I literally don't understand how he can say he has time to meet Hammond but no time to meet Gauke. Can't they meet at the same time? I get they he may not *want* to bother, but shouldn't the cover story be not physically possible?
I don't think Johnson wants the "cover story" to stand up. Rather, I think it is a signal that No 10 has identified Hammond as the de-facto leader of the Conservatives who are undermining his government, and would like to pass that on to the world. The audience includes Hammond's constituency executive, who Hammond had already prevailed upon to meet tomorrow in an effort to secure his reselection before the sh*t hits the fan. Johnson I am sure would prefer to put Hammond on the spot before rather than after the RWCA exec meet.
Yes, you posted it yesterday. Big drinker or something? Not that that's a criticism.
Since I didn't post it previously, I don't think it's me who should be checking my drinking.
As a self-professed die-hard Remainer atheist, I would tell him that wearing a funny collar and clothes does not confer wisdom, nor is there a pipeline of eternal verities coming into his skull from on high.
He’s an Anglican, so would agree with you
Wisdom comes from study, learning, discourse and thought
Yes, you posted it yesterday. Big drinker or something? Not that that's a criticism.
Since I didn't post it previously, I don't think it's me who should be checking my drinking.
As a self-professed die-hard Remainer atheist, I would tell him that wearing a funny collar and clothes does not confer wisdom, nor is there a pipeline of eternal verities coming into his skull from on high.
I was criticising him only a week ago for looking to convene a citizens assembly and dismissing anyone who favoured a No Deal Brexit, ruling it out entirely.
Maybe he should just stick to matters theological?
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
No, there's no hope.
We shall probably end up No Dealing. A US trade deal will turn out to be a chimera. And the imbalances in the UK economy will bite us hard.
A difficult 2 to 3 years will either be followed by us accepting something that looks just like the Withdrawal Agreement (so, we had a nasty recession all for nothing), or a true socialist government is elected, as the all previous problems were due to lack of government intervention.
The campaign both of you voted for made EEA-EFTA impossible, I mean have you forgotten all those campaign pledges to leave the Single Market?
Things have moved on. The WA and PD were rejected.
So this is about finding a compromise that works now. And yes it might even require ratification in a second referendum.
Why should Scotland accept second-class status when they could be a full member of the EU? A soft Brexit makes it much harder to run a project fear campaign against Independence.
If it's a total clusterfuck as claimed, I would have thought it would make it easier. After all, what Scot would willingly go through a second round of food shortages, no medicine and being an international pariah just to get tartan passports?
But actually, I don't think it will be. The problem is too many people are taking 'worst case scenarios' and running with them as though they are gospel facts. Rather like those people who claimed in 1970 that due to climate change we would all die of starvation by 1995 due to overpopulation and water scarcity.
The problem with doing this is that when they world doesn't end, people will laugh and ignore the predictions - and the actual problems that undoubtedly will be caused, which is basically manufacturing leaving this country to be nearer its main market and comply with overseas trading arrangements, which may take five years and may take ten but will ultimately leave us all much worse off, especially in the North of England, the Central Belt and the Midlands.
However, if that does come about ironically by discrediting Project Fear it will make Scottish independence more likely...
I was talking about the EEA+CU option. If the UK ends up as a client state of the EU, the argument for Scotland to upgrade itself to full membership would be compelling.
So, how many Tory rebels do we think there are, ready to vote to prevent No Deal?
And how many opposition MPs might support the government?
The government seems to be doing its best to maximise the former number.
I'm thinking the 21 who signed Hammond's letter are going to look very foolish if they wimp out now.
Then there are other prominent remainers such as Grieve, Letwin, Clarke, and probably a few more I am missing, who would surely support a move to block No Deal.
So, how many Tory rebels do we think there are, ready to vote to prevent No Deal?
And how many opposition MPs might support the government?
The government seems to be doing its best to maximise the former number.
Of course, otherwise they might have to do some work, deliver no deal and be accountable. Much easier to rage against the traitors and hope something better turns up after an election.
The usual hysterical remainer nonsense here. Do none of you realise how badly this all plays in the country? People aren't fools.
Entitled foul-mouthed middle class rants from luvvies like Hugh Grant and all the plotting and scheming of the "rebels" (oh how they love that term!) earn them nothing but contempt from the broader public. When the GE comes 'remain' is going to be eviscerated.
So, how many Tory rebels do we think there are, ready to vote to prevent No Deal?
And how many opposition MPs might support the government?
The government seems to be doing its best to maximise the former number.
It must be a deliberate strategy by Johnson and Cummings.
Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. Neither of them are exactly famed for their interpersonal skills close up.
The usual hysterical remainer nonsense here. Do none of you realise how badly this all plays in the country? People aren't fools.
Entitled foul-mouthed middle class rants from luvvies like Hugh Grant and all the plotting and scheming of the "rebels" (oh how they love that term!) earn them nothing but contempt from the broader public. When the GE comes 'remain' is going to be eviscerated.
Which of course is Cummings' strategy.....
To repeat our conversation from yesterday, if an election hasn't been called by the time parliament has been prorogued, this strategy will have failed.
So, how many Tory rebels do we think there are, ready to vote to prevent No Deal?
And how many opposition MPs might support the government?
The government seems to be doing its best to maximise the former number.
I'm thinking the 21 who signed Hammond's letter are going to look very foolish if they wimp out now.
Then there are other prominent remainers such as Grieve, Letwin, Clarke, and probably a few more I am missing, who would surely support a move to block No Deal.
The usual hysterical remainer nonsense here. Do none of you realise how badly this all plays in the country? People aren't fools.
Entitled foul-mouthed middle class rants from luvvies like Hugh Grant and all the plotting and scheming of the "rebels" (oh how they love that term!) earn them nothing but contempt from the broader public. When the GE comes 'remain' is going to be eviscerated.
Which of course is Cummings' strategy.....
To repeat our conversation from yesterday, when an election hasn't been called by the time parliament has been prorogued, this strategy will have failed.
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
Why does that part of the vote leave campaign "have" to be respected, whilst their promise of a great deal with the EU is fine to be ignored? It makes no sense.
We have to break some of the vote leave promises as combined they are undeliverable. Nobody is in an authoratitive position to say which of those promises should be broken, so everyones opinion, including remainers, should be taken into account when deciding which ones to keep and which ones to break.
So, how many Tory rebels do we think there are, ready to vote to prevent No Deal?
And how many opposition MPs might support the government?
The government seems to be doing its best to maximise the former number.
It must be a deliberate strategy by Johnson and Cummings.
Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. Neither of them are exactly famed for their interpersonal skills close up.
This is just lunatic.
What do you think Attila the Hun's "personal skills" were like? Or Naploeon's? Do you think that matters
The usual hysterical remainer nonsense here. Do none of you realise how badly this all plays in the country? People aren't fools.
Entitled foul-mouthed middle class rants from luvvies like Hugh Grant and all the plotting and scheming of the "rebels" (oh how they love that term!) earn them nothing but contempt from the broader public. When the GE comes 'remain' is going to be eviscerated.
Which of course is Cummings' strategy.....
To repeat our conversation from yesterday, if an election hasn't been called by the time parliament has been prorogued, this strategy will have failed.
Dead wrong.
No government (not even Johnson's) is going to survive beyond April. His strategy has unequivocally linked Johnson with Brexit. He will win an anti-establishment election whether it is before or after Brexit as, if Brexit is delayed. it will be abundantly clear whose fault that is.
To repeat our conversation from yesterday, if an election hasn't been called by the time parliament has been prorogued, this strategy will have failed.
So, how many Tory rebels do we think there are, ready to vote to prevent No Deal?
And how many opposition MPs might support the government?
The government seems to be doing its best to maximise the former number.
It must be a deliberate strategy by Johnson and Cummings.
Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. Neither of them are exactly famed for their interpersonal skills close up.
Your first sentence is a rule I have found to be very reliable over many years.
How on Earth are the Ulster Unionists failing to make any headway? Appreciate it’s hard to understand from 300 miles away but you’d think there was room in NI for a moderate “let’s have a working assembly and compromise on Brexit” Unionist Party.
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
Why does that part of the vote leave campaign "have" to be respected, whilst their promise of a great deal with the EU is fine to be ignored? It makes no sense.
The Brexit vote has led to:
Boris Johnson as PM; Jeremy Corbyn touting himself as a unity candidate for PM; The longest serving Conservative Cabinet Minister since the Second World War threatening to no-confidence a conservative government; Nicola Sturgeon declaring generations last two years; The Italians electing an anti-European government and lumbering it with pro-European conditions; Will Hutton getting an economic prediction right; Republicans calling for the monarchy to assert its power and override the democratic executive; and the democratic executive using the reserve powers of the monarchy to avoid democratic scrutiny.
So, how many Tory rebels do we think there are, ready to vote to prevent No Deal?
And how many opposition MPs might support the government?
The government seems to be doing its best to maximise the former number.
It must be a deliberate strategy by Johnson and Cummings.
Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. Neither of them are exactly famed for their interpersonal skills close up.
At the age of 47 and 55 you really should have identified your weaknesses and worked out how to work around them.
No government (not even Johnson's) is going to survive beyond April. His strategy has unequivocally linked Johnson with Brexit. He will win an anti-establishment election whether it is before or after Brexit as, if Brexit is delayed. it will be abundantly clear whose fault that is.
You think he can lead us out with no deal in November and still win an election in the new year?
So, how many Tory rebels do we think there are, ready to vote to prevent No Deal?
And how many opposition MPs might support the government?
The government seems to be doing its best to maximise the former number.
It must be a deliberate strategy by Johnson and Cummings.
Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. Neither of them are exactly famed for their interpersonal skills close up.
At the age of 47 and 55 you really should have identified your weaknesses and worked out how to work around them.
That requires self-awareness, integrity and courage.
No government (not even Johnson's) is going to survive beyond April. His strategy has unequivocally linked Johnson with Brexit. He will win an anti-establishment election whether it is before or after Brexit as, if Brexit is delayed. it will be abundantly clear whose fault that is.
You think he can lead us out with no deal in November and still win an election in the new year?
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
Well, no. It’s respecting the first and last bullet points in this part of the Leave pitch that Johnson is betraying Leave voters by ignoring-
The Lib Dems, Greens, and Labour need to agree to not stand against Tory ‘no deal’ rebels in the next election if they get deselected. These are unprecedented times and need unprecedented actions.
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
Why does that part of the vote leave campaign "have" to be respected, whilst their promise of a great deal with the EU is fine to be ignored? It makes no sense.
The Brexit vote has led to:
Boris Johnson as PM; Jeremy Corbyn touting himself as a unity candidate for PM; The longest serving Conservative Cabinet Minister since the Second World War threatening to no-confidence a conservative government; Nicola Sturgeon declaring generations last two years; The Italians electing an anti-European government and lumbering it with pro-European conditions; Will Hutton getting an economic prediction right; Republicans calling for the monarchy to assert its power and override the democratic executive; and the democratic executive using the reserve powers of the monarchy to avoid democratic scrutiny.
And you expect things to make sense?
"Will Hutton getting an economic prediction right" - I found that funny! Usually his predictions are interesting if not accurate...
The Lib Dems, Greens, and Labour need to agree to not stand against Tory ‘no deal’ rebels in the next election if they get deselected. These are unprecedented times and need unprecedented actions.
Hammond will be working for Goldman Sachs within the year.
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
Well, no. It’s respecting the first and last bullet points in this part of the Leave pitch that Johnson is betraying Leave voters by ignoring-
No, as Boris still wants to pass the Withdrawal Agreement to move to a FTA while replacing the backstop with a technical solution so the whole UK leaves the single market and customs union and replaces free movement with a points system and can do its own trade deals and is free of control from European courts
Interesting to see on the previous thread that Beverley (a self-professed die hard Remainer) would accept EEA-EFTA.
I would also be willing to accept this, now, as a compromise to settle the issue. Revisit if needs be in 10-15 years time to see how it's working.
Is there still hope?
I woukd be willing to accept it in 10 years after we have got EU migration under control with a points system
That's probably the biggest blocker. But I think migration from the EU is decreasing in salience as an issue and an emergency brake would cover it.
In 10 years maybe but we have to deliver the Vote Leave campaign to replace free movement from the EU with a points system first as well as doing our own trade deals.
Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union means we still have free movement and the EU still negotiates trade deals on our behalf and we still have to obey European courts and pay a fee to the EU, it would be Remain in all but name bar a bit more control of fisheries policy.
Which is why Boris is right to try for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop first and if not be prepared for No Deal to deliver what Leave voters really voted for
"...what Leave voters really voted for" Now there's a thing.
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
Vote Leave campaigned for a points system to replace free movement and to do our own trade deals, if you voted Leave that was the official campaign platform for Leave you were voting for. It has to be tried first to respect the Leave vote, staying in the Single Market and Customs Union does not deliver it
Well, no. It’s respecting the first and last bullet points in this part of the Leave pitch that Johnson is betraying Leave voters by ignoring-
No, as Boris still wants to pass the Withdrawal Agreement to move to a FTA while replacing the backstop with a technical solution so the whole UK leaves the single market and customs union and replaces free movement with a points system and can do its own trade deals
Apparently Dominic Cummings has game-theoried every possible scenario for the next few days and weeks, so if it all goes wrong for the government we'll know how good at game theory he is.
Comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u18b65Om2jA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuIJqF8av6I
It's incredible the way some people are self-appointing themselves as the only true diviners of what 17m people voted for.
I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
IT WASN'T ON THE BALLOT PAPER
Any statement, policy or other pronouncement by this government should be viewed through this prism. All else is flim flam.
Without having faced a single vote in Parliament.
This is tyranny.
“We will negotiate a UK-EU Treaty that enables us 1) to continue cooperating in many areas just as now (e.g. maritime surveillance), 2) to deepen cooperation in some areas (e.g. scientific collaborations and counter-terrorism)” – Vote Leave
"No true Brexiteer...."
And how many opposition MPs might support the government?
But actually, I don't think it will be. The problem is too many people are taking 'worst case scenarios' and running with them as though they are gospel facts. Rather like those people who claimed in 1970 that due to climate change we would all die of starvation by 1995 due to overpopulation and water scarcity.
The problem with doing this is that when they world doesn't end, people will laugh and ignore the predictions - and the actual problems that undoubtedly will be caused, which is basically manufacturing leaving this country to be nearer its main market and comply with overseas trading arrangements, which may take five years and may take ten but will ultimately leave us all much worse off, especially in the North of England, the Central Belt and the Midlands.
However, if that does come about ironically by discrediting Project Fear it will make Scottish independence more likely...
Enough for one lifetime. It was like drinking vinegar. Actually, some vinegars are nicer
https://order-order.com/2019/08/29/hammonds-constituency-uproar-sneaky-secret-re-selection-bid/
Wisdom comes from study, learning, discourse and thought
Of course, I do not drink them by the pint, just a sip for taste before adding as a flavouring.
Having said that, I never drank a pint of Carling. I stopped after the first mouthful (which I had the good manners not to spit out)
Then there are other prominent remainers such as Grieve, Letwin, Clarke, and probably a few more I am missing, who would surely support a move to block No Deal.
(But then I am a Liberal High Anglican)
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1168248511063822336?s=20
Entitled foul-mouthed middle class rants from luvvies like Hugh Grant and all the plotting and scheming of the "rebels" (oh how they love that term!) earn them nothing but contempt from the broader public. When the GE comes 'remain' is going to be eviscerated.
Which of course is Cummings' strategy.....
https://twitter.com/LucidTalk/status/1168253791185100801
If this wasn't a Cummings 'false flag' operation it should be...and should be repeated as often as possible.
We have to break some of the vote leave promises as combined they are undeliverable. Nobody is in an authoratitive position to say which of those promises should be broken, so everyones opinion, including remainers, should be taken into account when deciding which ones to keep and which ones to break.
What do you think Attila the Hun's "personal skills" were like? Or Naploeon's? Do you think that matters Dead wrong.
No government (not even Johnson's) is going to survive beyond April. His strategy has unequivocally linked Johnson with Brexit. He will win an anti-establishment election whether it is before or after Brexit as, if Brexit is delayed. it will be abundantly clear whose fault that is.
Boris Johnson as PM;
Jeremy Corbyn touting himself as a unity candidate for PM;
The longest serving Conservative Cabinet Minister since the Second World War threatening to no-confidence a conservative government;
Nicola Sturgeon declaring generations last two years;
The Italians electing an anti-European government and lumbering it with pro-European conditions;
Will Hutton getting an economic prediction right;
Republicans calling for the monarchy to assert its power and override the democratic executive;
and the democratic executive using the reserve powers of the monarchy to avoid democratic scrutiny.
And you expect things to make sense?
You are blinded by you hatred of Brexit.
You are talking about Johnson and Cummings.
Mrs May has done the donkey work of this task - Hammond and Co want to finish the job. Boris is working to prevent them achieving this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
Burning 'the flag' is one of the surest ways to repulse decent people who don't live and breathe Brexit.
Sure, the swivel-eyed headbangers will try and excuse it, or pretend it didn't happen, but for many normal people it will cross a line.
It appears the details are top secret so they must have a plan.
Why not just share it and do a deal
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1168259785906688000?s=21
Boris is goading the HOC to vonc and will fight on people v parliament, the elite, and the EU overturning their referendum
And if the polls are to be believed he is winning the argument
Also as I said this morning Boris and Farage will have candidates for these seats, probably from TBP MEPs
And to be honest any involvement with Farage turns my stomach