There's no point in politicians deleting Tweets from Twitter, as any even moderately prominent person is almost certainly being automatically archived by some service or other. Deleting a Tweet will only draw attention to it.
Those 4 in Labour who would not vote No Confidence but would support no deal Brexit should really already have had the Labour whip removed.
I would expect that if 20 Conservatives vote No Confidence in the Government then there would be more than 20 voting for a GoNU not lead by Corby assuming the VoNC had already gone through. There must be some who would begrudgingly support Johnson in a VoNC but would say "Sorry, but you need to step aside" once the VoNC is lost.
That is crazy. People like Caroline Flint have done nothing but represent their working class constituents and try to pass a deal that protects them, while implementing the referendum result. You can't blame people who voted for a deal three times that there is no deal.
Labour MPs should not be supporting the conservative PM in a VoNC.
Nor would they - with the possible exception of Kate Hoey.
Ronnie Campbell is too good a friend of Corbyn to not back him
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
You're missing the point though. There are two scenarios here 1) in the unlikely event we remain, the tories will be an avowedly exit party. there will be more of the same over and over and over again. 2) we exit, in some form, and there will then be another 3 years negotiating the 'future relationship' after which the tories will say it's still not good enough and we end up back here. on top of that you'll have the remain labour people and the lib dems fighting a guerilla war against exit in the same manner that the likes of IDS did in the 90's and 00's
HYUFD has had a brain transplant. He was once a moderate sensible Tory. These days he’s a frothing Trumptonite Bunterish nutcase.
Leave him! He’s not worff it!
When Boris and Brexit hits the brick wall. HYUFD is going to be in pieces. I hope he gets paid for writing the stuff he does as he is heading for one hell of a meltdown...
When it does not, what are you going to do? You seem rather on edge about the whole thing at the best of times.
Personally I would cheer to the rafters, but that has nothing to do with HY or any other poster.
Please God that happens, Lucky, but it becomes increasingly difficult to believe it will.
I know people don’t care much about the details, but until yesterday the entire debate about prorogation, and particularly during the leadership contest, was in the context of proroguing parliament sometime in October to overlap with October 31st to force through no deal. In fact i’m sure some of the public polling results are because this is what many people think is what has happened.
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
You're missing the point though. There are two scenarios here 1) in the unlikely event we remain, the tories will be an avowedly exit party. there will be more of the same over and over and over again. 2) we exit, in some form, and there will then be another 3 years negotiating the 'future relationship' after which the tories will say it's still not good enough and we end up back here. on top of that you'll have the remain labour people and the lib dems fighting a guerilla war against exit in the same manner that the likes of IDS did in the 90's and 00's
You're missing the point. When the sky comprehensively fails to fall in after October 31, the jig will be up for remainerism, and the more sensible ones know it, which is why they're trying so desperately to stop it now.
I know people don’t care much about the details, but until yesterday the entire debate about prorogation, and particularly during the leadership contest, was in the context of proroguing parliament sometime in October to overlap with October 31st to force through no deal. In fact i’m sure some of the public polling results are because this is what many people think is what has happened.
For someone who cares about the details, you seem to have missed that the quotes from TeamSaj don't mention any dates.
For those on the "the ballot paper only said Leave" side of the argument for No Deal, they seem remarkably picky about dates that don't appear in the Tweets.
You don't deliver democracy by trashing democracy - you can't just shut down Parliament.
Good point. Never can be too sure with them I'm with you on that one. Is there a committee he can go in front of to confirm?
I think you are misunderstanding me.
My view is that failure to support Labour because of antisemitism is wrong.
But - and it's a big but - it makes a difference to me whether or not the person doing the failure to support because of antisemitism is sincere in advancing that as the reason.
Because there are people for whom it is a convenient virtue signalling cover for a variety of other things. For example, a fear that Labour would damage their personal prosperity, tax their house, abolish private schools, whatever.
And as I say, I do see a difference there. I take a dim view of the latter but not the former.
I take the view that supporting Labour in spite of its anti-semitism is wrong.
Why?
Because when anti-semitism is normalised, encouraged or tolerated, it is an indication of a profound political sickness, the growth of an illiberal, intolerant contempt for democratic open culture, for democracy, a preference for ignorant populism and a conspiratorial view of the world where people are not judged on their actions but on whether they are one of us or not. And if they are, all is forgiven; if they are not, everything they say or do is assumed to be in bad faith.
Both main parties seem more and more to be prey to this.
I cannot support either of them until this changes, no matter what the cost or advantage to my personal wealth might be.
Don’t really get this as avoiding nodeal Brexit is not within the Government’s gift, unless the EU agree. OK, so technically they can revoke, but that wasn’t assumed at the point that article 50 was triggered, and may require Parliamentary assent anyway.
Essentially the argument seems to be that if nodeal happens, it will be unlawful, even though the Government has potentially no means to avoid it. And doesn’t it also potentially undermine the court ruling on the triggering of article 50, if that action didn’t actually mean anything without further legislation?
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
You're missing the point though. There are two scenarios here 1) in the unlikely event we remain, the tories will be an avowedly exit party. there will be more of the same over and over and over again. 2) we exit, in some form, and there will then be another 3 years negotiating the 'future relationship' after which the tories will say it's still not good enough and we end up back here. on top of that you'll have the remain labour people and the lib dems fighting a guerilla war against exit in the same manner that the likes of IDS did in the 90's and 00's
You're missing the point. When the sky comprehensively fails to fall in after October 31, the jig will be up for remainerism, and the more sensible ones know it, which is why they're trying so desperately to stop it now.
If you pretend to know what will happen after a No Deal Brexit. you're simply a fool.
Ken did good work as Chancellor but it is time for Ken to retire now.
That's what he's been trying to do for the last couple of years. he's already said that he'd stand down at the next election and is why he's the perfect candidate for a temporary PM
Another Con Gain at the next election for Brexit maths then.
He voted for Brexit.
If Somerset North East were to be taken by a pro-Brexit candidate, that would change the maths a bit.
Don't confuse May's deal with Brexit, he voted against Brexit.
He voted against the referendum and he voted against Article 50 and he voted in favour of extending Article 50
An oft made criticism of MPs who oppose no deal, but favour Brexit with a deal is that they should have “known what they were voting for when voting to trigger Article 50”. With the benefit of hindsight what would your advice have been to such an MP when the Article 50 vote came before the House?
To think seriously about the consequences of their votes. To understand that once a process has begun there are no guarantees as to how it will end.
Do you think that is unreasonable advice?
No, but for such an individual who “thought long and hard” and concluded that despite being a supporter of Brexit (with a deal as the referendum advocates promised) the risk of no deal was too great and voted against triggering - would you have 3 years down the line characterised them as a “remainer”, if events continued as they have?
Yes. They chose to remain. I was torn whether to vote leave or remain but in the end switched from a lifetime of supporting remain to backing leave - I was one of the only people on this site to switch their support while here. The moment I did I switched from being a remainer to a leaver - and the same vice-versa.
TSE mocked me as a "JCL leaver" earlier as opposed to Casino, fair enough I am, but the person you described would equally be a JCL remainer.
There is risk to anything. You can choose to leave and take on the risks associated with that, or you can choose to remain and choose the risks associated with that.
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
You're missing the point though. There are two scenarios here 1) in the unlikely event we remain, the tories will be an avowedly exit party. there will be more of the same over and over and over again. 2) we exit, in some form, and there will then be another 3 years negotiating the 'future relationship' after which the tories will say it's still not good enough and we end up back here. on top of that you'll have the remain labour people and the lib dems fighting a guerilla war against exit in the same manner that the likes of IDS did in the 90's and 00's
You're missing the point. When the sky comprehensively fails to fall in after October 31, the jig will be up for remainerism, and the more sensible ones know it, which is why they're trying so desperately to stop it now.
If you pretend to know what will happen after a No Deal Brexit. you're simply a fool.
I know people don’t care much about the details, but until yesterday the entire debate about prorogation, and particularly during the leadership contest, was in the context of proroguing parliament sometime in October to overlap with October 31st to force through no deal. In fact i’m sure some of the public polling results are because this is what many people think is what has happened.
For someone who cares about the details, you seem to have missed that the quotes from TeamSaj don't mention any dates.
For those on the "the ballot paper only said Leave" side of the argument for No Deal, they seem remarkably picky about dates that don't appear in the Tweets.
You don't deliver democracy by trashing democracy - you can't just shut down Parliament.
The fact that the quotes don’t mention dates doesn’t change the context in which the quotes were made. And can you find a single person who predicted this scenario to which the quote might have been attached to? He may well have taken the same view had it been raised during the election, but it didn’t so it can’t be assumed that they covered it. Whether or not it is an affront to democracy.
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
You're missing the point though. There are two scenarios here 1) in the unlikely event we remain, the tories will be an avowedly exit party. there will be more of the same over and over and over again. 2) we exit, in some form, and there will then be another 3 years negotiating the 'future relationship' after which the tories will say it's still not good enough and we end up back here. on top of that you'll have the remain labour people and the lib dems fighting a guerilla war against exit in the same manner that the likes of IDS did in the 90's and 00's
You're missing the point. When the sky comprehensively fails to fall in after October 31, the jig will be up for remainerism, and the more sensible ones know it, which is why they're trying so desperately to stop it now.
After an exit, especially if it causes a crisis in confidence in the economy and thus a recession, there will still be a significant number of people who will want back in. there will be a similar guerrilla warfare to get us back in. that is what I said.
there will be no such thing as 'remainer' once we've actually left but there will be a rejoin movement. This is the folly of the Leavers in charge, they think that an exit will make the other side go away. it won't.
I also suspect that following a no-deal exit the EU will be consistent with the red lines that they've already set out and as such the leavers won't like or vote for any continuing relationship treaty because it's not a 'real exit'.
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
You're missing the point though. There are two scenarios here 1) in the unlikely event we remain, the tories will be an avowedly exit party. there will be more of the same over and over and over again. 2) we exit, in some form, and there will then be another 3 years negotiating the 'future relationship' after which the tories will say it's still not good enough and we end up back here. on top of that you'll have the remain labour people and the lib dems fighting a guerilla war against exit in the same manner that the likes of IDS did in the 90's and 00's
You're missing the point. When the sky comprehensively fails to fall in after October 31, the jig will be up for remainerism, and the more sensible ones know it, which is why they're trying so desperately to stop it now.
If you pretend to know what will happen after a No Deal Brexit. you're simply a fool.
Are you saying that to everyone who is against No Deal?
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
It’s going to be fascinating. People keep saying the Tory Party is beckoning more “right wing”. I’m not sure it is, as the likes of Hammond sod off it will be a lot less corporatist, and a lot more interventionist. The liberals might end up defending market economics etc....
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In order for that to happen it needs to happen very quickly and they don't have the leader who can command the confidence of the house. What I suspect BJ to do with a VoNC is to hold out for two weeks and make election day the same a B-Day. then he gets his no-deal and the election on the same day, it'd work as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
Maybe so, but let's be optimistic for a moment. Maybe they have someone in mind but do not wish to reveal the name just yet.
Btw, I was thinking about the chicken game. Does it not apply to the DUP? Would they be prepared to risk being held responsible for the reintroduction of a Hard Border.
Interesting question. It would be good if they ran out of road as they try to avoid responsibility for anything at all, and actually had to decide where they stood in the real world. If possible they intend not to be responsible at all for anything. I wonder if at the critical moment they will cease their unholy alliance with the government in order to further this end.
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
You're missing the point though. There are two scenarios here 1) in the unlikely event we remain, the tories will be an avowedly exit party. there will be more of the same over and over and over again. 2) we exit, in some form, and there will then be another 3 years negotiating the 'future relationship' after which the tories will say it's still not good enough and we end up back here. on top of that you'll have the remain labour people and the lib dems fighting a guerilla war against exit in the same manner that the likes of IDS did in the 90's and 00's
You're missing the point. When the sky comprehensively fails to fall in after October 31, the jig will be up for remainerism, and the more sensible ones know it, which is why they're trying so desperately to stop it now.
If you pretend to know what will happen after a No Deal Brexit. you're simply a fool.
Isn't that what you're doing?
I'm just using experience to guide me into predicting the way people will act. Not always accurate but it's clear on the big picture.
1) The leavers in charge do not like the EU and will hate any long term relationship with it which taints their pure brexit. they have shown this to be true with the dealing of the withdrawal agreement.
2) the remainers will not go away if there is an exit. look at the Peoples Vote campaign. They've been resilient and will continue to be vocal.
Beyond the carefully cultivated clownish persona the truth is as Eddie Mair was first to make clear he's a thoroughly nasty piece of work. That is now becoming understood more widely. The sooner he's deposed the better for all of us.
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
You're missing the point though. There are two scenarios here 1) in the unlikely event we remain, the tories will be an avowedly exit party. there will be more of the same over and over and over again. 2) we exit, in some form, and there will then be another 3 years negotiating the 'future relationship' after which the tories will say it's still not good enough and we end up back here. on top of that you'll have the remain labour people and the lib dems fighting a guerilla war against exit in the same manner that the likes of IDS did in the 90's and 00's
You're missing the point. When the sky comprehensively fails to fall in after October 31, the jig will be up for remainerism, and the more sensible ones know it, which is why they're trying so desperately to stop it now.
It's a hell of a gamble that things won't go wrong...
No Deal won't necessarily be cataclysmic. It probably won't be in fact. But it will be unsustainable in my view. The key point won't change after No Deal. The EU wants a deal and the UK needs one. Something will be sorted out eventually, which means the EU and each of the EU27 getting all their red lines. As long as there is a prospect of a deal, neither side will make things horrible. But the EU won't want the UK to be too comfortable. Member states will also see opportunities in taking over business and jobs that were previously in the UK.
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
You're missing the point though. There are two scenarios here 1) in the unlikely event we remain, the tories will be an avowedly exit party. there will be more of the same over and over and over again. 2) we exit, in some form, and there will then be another 3 years negotiating the 'future relationship' after which the tories will say it's still not good enough and we end up back here. on top of that you'll have the remain labour people and the lib dems fighting a guerilla war against exit in the same manner that the likes of IDS did in the 90's and 00's
You're missing the point. When the sky comprehensively fails to fall in after October 31, the jig will be up for remainerism, and the more sensible ones know it, which is why they're trying so desperately to stop it now.
If you pretend to know what will happen after a No Deal Brexit. you're simply a fool.
Isn't that what you're doing?
I apologise. I should have said "you're simply a fool who can't read."
Not a surprise, unfortunately. He's one of the good guys, who has been a loyal Conservative for a long time and has done a lot behind the scenes. Not long before th 2010 election, David Cameron asked him to become the Watford candidate at short notice, after the previous candidate had been prosecuted for a bizarre and very unpleasant series of attempts to harass the then LibDem MP Sal Brinton. At the time there was virtually no local association structure left. Richard very rapidly put together a crack team, quickly raised some donations (including from me), and worked very hard to win the seat. It was one of the great Conservative successes of 2010.
Unfortunately he is far too sensible for the modern Conservative Party, as he's dead against a No Deal crash out. Relations with his local association have broken down completely, as the mad ideologues have taken over. I doubt if the party will now retain Watford.
Sal Brinton was never an MP. IIRC her father was a Tory MP but she was just LD candidate for Watford in 2005 and 2010. Still the former Tory PPC was out of order slashing tyres and doing other sorts of vindictive behaviour.
Of course, you are right. I misremembered, this was a three-way marginal Labour seat before 2010, with (as you say) Sal Brinton as the LibDem candidate.
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
You're missing the point though. There are two scenarios here 1) in the unlikely event we remain, the tories will be an avowedly exit party. there will be more of the same over and over and over again. 2) we exit, in some form, and there will then be another 3 years negotiating the 'future relationship' after which the tories will say it's still not good enough and we end up back here. on top of that you'll have the remain labour people and the lib dems fighting a guerilla war against exit in the same manner that the likes of IDS did in the 90's and 00's
You're missing the point. When the sky comprehensively fails to fall in after October 31, the jig will be up for remainerism, and the more sensible ones know it, which is why they're trying so desperately to stop it now.
It's a hell of a gamble that things won't go wrong...
The point is that things cannot possibly now live up (down) to remainers' catastrophism. Once again, they've chucked everything at the wall to stop this and dramatically over-egged the pudding. If we do no deal, this will come back to bite them big time. I still hope we don't, because I believe in slow evolutionary change, and I think the nation's collective nerves will be better served by a deal.
Not a surprise, unfortunately. He's one of the good guys, who has been a loyal Conservative for a long time and has done a lot behind the scenes. Not long before th 2010 election, David Cameron asked him to become the Watford candidate at short notice, after the previous candidate had been prosecuted for a bizarre and very unpleasant series of attempts to harass the then LibDem MP Sal Brinton. At the time there was virtually no local association structure left. Richard very rapidly put together a crack team, quickly raised some donations (including from me), and worked very hard to win the seat. It was one of the great Conservative successes of 2010.
Unfortunately he is far too sensible for the modern Conservative Party, as he's dead against a No Deal crash out. Relations with his local association have broken down completely, as the mad ideologues have taken over. I doubt if the party will now retain Watford.
He did some weird stuff though with the local association
LibDems never held Watford. Sai Brinton came second twice, one to Labour and once to a Tory.
I take the view that supporting Labour in spite of its anti-semitism is wrong.
Why?
Because when anti-semitism is normalised, encouraged or tolerated, it is an indication of a profound political sickness, the growth of an illiberal, intolerant contempt for democratic open culture, for democracy, a preference for ignorant populism and a conspiratorial view of the world where people are not judged on their actions but on whether they are one of us or not. And if they are, all is forgiven; if they are not, everything they say or do is assumed to be in bad faith.
Both main parties seem more and more to be prey to this.
I cannot support either of them until this changes, no matter what the cost or advantage to my personal wealth might be.
Well it's hard to be objective but I do try. And as of now the antisemitism issue is not enough to change my voting intention. It would if I thought it would feature in a Labour government.
Any case - the header - your comment about being governed by adolescent males. That is exactly right. All of these populists, that is exactly what they are like. Teenage boys. But without the good bits.
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
After Brexit? We might all be dead by then...
I remain confident that Brexit will be concluded this year. There won’t be a Tory party left otherwise...
Who cares? Try putting country before party FFS. Most of us have long since abandoned any party-preservation goals. You are clearly a decent guy IRL - I merely urge you to ditch the sycophantic loyalism and offer solutions.
Comments
1) in the unlikely event we remain, the tories will be an avowedly exit party. there will be more of the same over and over and over again.
2) we exit, in some form, and there will then be another 3 years negotiating the 'future relationship' after which the tories will say it's still not good enough and we end up back here. on top of that you'll have the remain labour people and the lib dems fighting a guerilla war against exit in the same manner that the likes of IDS did in the 90's and 00's
Please God that happens, Lucky, but it becomes increasingly difficult to believe it will.
For those on the "the ballot paper only said Leave" side of the argument for No Deal, they seem remarkably picky about dates that don't appear in the Tweets.
You don't deliver democracy by trashing democracy - you can't just shut down Parliament.
Why?
Because when anti-semitism is normalised, encouraged or tolerated, it is an indication of a profound political sickness, the growth of an illiberal, intolerant contempt for democratic open culture, for democracy, a preference for ignorant populism and a conspiratorial view of the world where people are not judged on their actions but on whether they are one of us or not. And if they are, all is forgiven; if they are not, everything they say or do is assumed to be in bad faith.
Both main parties seem more and more to be prey to this.
I cannot support either of them until this changes, no matter what the cost or advantage to my personal wealth might be.
Essentially the argument seems to be that if nodeal happens, it will be unlawful, even though the Government has potentially no means to avoid it. And doesn’t it also potentially undermine the court ruling on the triggering of article 50, if that action didn’t actually mean anything without further legislation?
TSE mocked me as a "JCL leaver" earlier as opposed to Casino, fair enough I am, but the person you described would equally be a JCL remainer.
There is risk to anything. You can choose to leave and take on the risks associated with that, or you can choose to remain and choose the risks associated with that.
there will be no such thing as 'remainer' once we've actually left but there will be a rejoin movement. This is the folly of the Leavers in charge, they think that an exit will make the other side go away. it won't.
I also suspect that following a no-deal exit the EU will be consistent with the red lines that they've already set out and as such the leavers won't like or vote for any continuing relationship treaty because it's not a 'real exit'.
1) The leavers in charge do not like the EU and will hate any long term relationship with it which taints their pure brexit. they have shown this to be true with the dealing of the withdrawal agreement.
2) the remainers will not go away if there is an exit. look at the Peoples Vote campaign. They've been resilient and will continue to be vocal.
NEW THREAD
https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/1167169658820136960
SNP 8/11 (from 5/6)
Con EVS (from 5/6)
(Ladbrokes)
Next GE - Bishop Auckland (Lab Maj 502, Helen Goodman MP)
Lab 4/5
Con 11/10
Bxp 8/1
LD 50/1
Next GE - Hartlepool (Lab Maj 7,650, Mike Hill MP)
Lab 4/6
Con 11/10
LD 50/1
Next GE - Portsmouth South (Lab Maj 1,554, Stephen Morgan MP)
LD 5/4
Con 6/4
Lab 9/4
Any case - the header - your comment about being governed by adolescent males. That is exactly right. All of these populists, that is exactly what they are like. Teenage boys. But without the good bits.
I’m all ears mate.