Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In order for that to happen it needs to happen very quickly and they don't have the leader who can command the confidence of the house. What I suspect BJ to do with a VoNC is to hold out for two weeks and make election day the same a B-Day. then he gets his no-deal and the election on the same day, it'd work as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
Urgent memo to HY the new authorized description of the current traitor remainers is no longer diehard but ARCH yours faithfully the RT Hon member for NE Somerset (esq)
Leaving the EU speedily does not. And yet it is speed which is prized. How very adolescent.
Article 50 set the 2 year deadline, not the UK.
Then the Government should have thought things through much more carefully and completely before triggering Article 50.
Whichever way you cut it it's down to the Tory party's gross incompetence we're in this mess.
Tory incompetence, Lib Dem intransigence, Labour game playing. There is a lot of blame to go round.
Just as Israel produces more history than can be consumed locally, so Brexit is producing more blame than can be digested by any one entity.
No... The Tories started the referendum process for their own internal political ends and at every point they have doubled down and made the crisis ever worse.
They have never offered the slightest gesture either to the nearly 50% who voted Remain or the large numbers of Leavers who wanted less political EU, but enough economic EU to be going on with. No compromise, no recognition, no sense, so now:
No EFTA No Single Market No Customs Union No Backstop
and now... a No Deal rammed through against the wishes of the clear majority of MPs and of the voters.
They are prepared to trash:
the economy, the union, the constitution the monarchy
in order to get an ultra hard Brexit
So the Tories own this fiasco and they can bloody well take whats coming to them.
Personally I can think of no humiliation that the repellent trio of Cummings, Mogg and Johnson do not deserve.
But as long as they make money out of it it will all be worth it. This was never an argument about principle it was about saving millions in undeclared revenue and making money by betting against the pound.
Not exactly bearing faithful allegiance to HM Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors according to law.
I do note that Cummings lived 10 years in Russia, Mogg is said to have clients whose beneficial owners are Russian oligarchs... Christ, even their leader is called Boris...
Leaving the EU speedily does not. And yet it is speed which is prized. How very adolescent.
Article 50 set the 2 year deadline, not the UK.
Then the Government should have thought things through much more carefully and completely before triggering Article 50.
Whichever way you cut it it's down to the Tory party's gross incompetence we're in this mess.
Tory incompetence, Lib Dem intransigence, Labour game playing. There is a lot of blame to go round.
Just as Israel produces more history than can be consumed locally, so Brexit is producing more blame than can be digested by any one entity.
No... The Tories started the referendum process for their own internal political ends and at every point they have doubled down and made the crisis ever worse.
They have never offered the slightest gesture either to the nearly 50% who voted Remain or the large numbers of Leavers who wanted less political EU, but enough economic EU to be going on with. No compromise, no recognition, no sense, so now:
No EFTA No Single Market No Customs Union No Backstop
and now... a No Deal rammed through against the wishes of the clear majority of MPs and of the voters.
They are prepared to trash:
the economy, the union, the constitution the monarchy
in order to get an ultra hard Brexit
So the Tories own this fiasco and they can bloody well take whats coming to them.
Personally I can think of no humiliation that the repellent trio of Cummings, Mogg and Johnson do not deserve.
But as long as they make money out of it it will all be worth it. This was never an argument about principle it was about saving millions in undeclared revenue and making money by betting against the pound.
Who got what revenue from where and failed to disclose it to whom?
In 2020 new regulations come into force that requires EU citizens to declare their worldwide wealth and income, failure to do so would be a criminal offense. Therefore if you are, for example an MEP with very large offshore investments you would not be very keen to have to declare that, currently, tax free income. That is why they are so desperate to get the U.K. out before these regulations come into force.
Sounds a bit batshit to me. If they haven't been declaring this money to HMRC why wouldn't they just not declare it to the EU as well?
It’s nichomar‘s favourite conspiracy theory that Brexit is all about avoiding EU financial regulation.
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In order for that to happen it needs to happen very quickly and they don't have the leader who can command the confidence of the house. What I suspect BJ to do with a VoNC is to hold out for two weeks and make election day the same a B-Day. then he gets his no-deal and the election on the same day, it'd work as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
Maybe so, but let's be optimistic for a moment. Maybe they have someone in mind but do not wish to reveal the name just yet.
Btw, I was thinking about the chicken game. Does it not apply to the DUP? Would they be prepared to risk being held responsible for the reintroduction of a Hard Border.
Boris Johnson’s suspension of parliament is an affront to democracy MPs must pass a no-confidence vote in the government and trigger a general election"
Yes they should - though of course that might result in Boris getting the backing for no deal in a GE which most of those upset at him want to avoid. Not guaranteed of course, I don't think he'd definitely do well, but if they want to stick it to him by ensuring we do not no deal, then passing a deal is the way to go rather than no confidence him, not agree on someone else, and trigger a GE.
Maybe it's time for voters to decide once again, in a general election.
Maybe, but the point was that still risks no deal if Boris wins that GE. If they really really don't want no deal, then they need to sort Brexit out first.
Of course, they believe not entirely without reason that they can reverse Brexit entirely through a GE, at the least delay it again and probably get a referendum to cancel it, but Boris could win and no deal. They have the means to stop that, and then go for a GE.
Boris Johnson’s suspension of parliament is an affront to democracy MPs must pass a no-confidence vote in the government and trigger a general election"
Yes they should - though of course that might result in Boris getting the backing for no deal in a GE which most of those upset at him want to avoid. Not guaranteed of course, I don't think he'd definitely do well, but if they want to stick it to him by ensuring we do not no deal, then passing a deal is the way to go rather than no confidence him, not agree on someone else, and trigger a GE.
Maybe it's time for voters to decide once again, in a general election.
Maybe, but the point was that still risks no deal if Boris wins that GE. If they really really don't want no deal, then they need to sort Brexit out first.
Of course, they believe not entirely without reason that they can reverse Brexit entirely through a GE, at the least delay it again and probably get a referendum to cancel it, but Boris could win and no deal. They have the means to stop that, and then go for a GE.
There could surely be no objection to a No deal Brexit it voters plumped for it at a GE.
Leaving the EU speedily does not. And yet it is speed which is prized. How very adolescent.
Article 50 set the 2 year deadline, not the UK.
Then the Government should have thought things through much more carefully and completely before triggering Article
Just as Israel produces more history than can be consumed locally, so Brexit is producing more blame than can be digested by any one entity.
No... The Tories started the referendum process for their own internal political ends and at every point they have doubled down and made the crisis ever worse.
They have never offered the slightest gesture either to the nearly 50% who voted Remain or the large numbers of Leavers who wanted less political EU, but enough economic EU to be going on with. No compromise, no recognition, no sense, so now:
No EFTA No Single Market No Customs Union No Backstop
and now... a No Deal rammed through against the wishes of the clear majority of MPs and of the voters.
They are prepared to trash:
the economy, the union, the constitution the monarchy
in order to get an ultra hard Brexit
So the Tories own this fiasco and they can bloody well take whats coming to them.
Personally I can think of no humiliation that the repellent trio of Cummings, Mogg and Johnson do not deserve.
But as long as they make money out of it it will all be worth it. This was never an argument about principle it was about saving millions in undeclared revenue and making money by betting against the pound.
Who got what revenue from where and failed to disclose it to whom?
In 2020 new regulations come into force that requires EU citizens to declare their worldwide wealth and income, failure to do so would be a criminal offense. Therefore if you are, for example an MEP with very large offshore investments you would not be very keen to have to declare that, currently, tax free income. That is why they are so desperate to get the U.K. out before these regulations come into force.
Sounds a bit batshit to me. If they haven't been declaring this money to HMRC why wouldn't they just not declare it to the EU as well?
It’s not they have to declare it to the EU but to their own tax authority but maybe it’s worth asking your MP if he will adopt the regulations even if we leave the EU to see what reaction you get.
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In order for that to happen it needs to happen very quickly and they don't have the leader who can command the confidence of the house. What I suspect BJ to do with a VoNC is to hold out for two weeks and make election day the same a B-Day. then he gets his no-deal and the election on the same day, it'd work as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
Maybe so, but let's be optimistic for a moment. Maybe they have someone in mind but do not wish to reveal the name just yet.
Btw, I was thinking about the chicken game. Does it not apply to the DUP? Would they be prepared to risk being held responsible for the reintroduction of a Hard Border.
It's a lot easier for them to risk things, given the division of politics in NI.
Leaving the EU speedily does not. And yet it is speed which is prized. How very adolescent.
Article 50 set the 2 year deadline, not the UK.
Then the Government should have thought things through much more carefully and completely before triggering Article 50.
Whichever way you cut it it's down to the Tory party's gross incompetence we're in this mess.
Tory incompetence, Lib Dem intransigence, Labour game playing. There is a lot of blame to go round.
Just as Israel produces more history than can be consumed locally, so Brexit is producing more blame than can be digested by any one entity.
No... The Tories started the referendum process for their own internal political ends and at every point they have doubled down and made the crisis ever worse.
They have never offered the slightest gesture either to the nearly 50% who voted Remain or the large numbers of Leavers who wanted less political EU, but enough economic EU to be going on with. No compromise, no recognition, no sense, so now:
No EFTA No Single Market No Customs Union No Backstop
and now... a No Deal rammed through against the wishes of the clear majority of MPs and of the voters.
They are prepared to trash:
the economy, the union, the constitution the monarchy
in order to get an ultra hard Brexit
So the Tories own this fiasco and they can bloody well take whats coming to them.
Personally I can think of no humiliation that the repellent trio of Cummings, Mogg and Johnson do not deserve.
Utter crap, the Withdrawal Agreement was voted for by most Leave MPs 3 times but rejected by uncompromising die hard Remainers and Corbyn, despite the fact the political declaration was non binding.
Diehard Remainers and Labour deserve the humiliation of No Deal followed by Boris majority (even if I still back an amended Withdrawal Agreement) for their refusal to respect the Leave vote.
Don't be so hard on yourself. You are a diehard remainer and I don't think you deserve humiliation. You are a man of principle and I respect the fact that you don't change your mind or your beliefs on a whim depending on who's in power.
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In order for that to happen it needs to happen very quickly and they don't have the leader who can command the confidence of the house. What I suspect BJ to do with a VoNC is to hold out for two weeks and make election day the same a B-Day. then he gets his no-deal and the election on the same day, it'd work as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
If there is not an identified new PM there won’t be a VONC, if there is then Johnson can’t hang on he has to go.
If there is no VoNC he'll just hang on anyway and get no-deal.
Yes unless the SO 24 move works interesting times, too many permutations, to many vested interests I doubt anybody has a f ing clue what is going to happen. Time for an update on the various betting markets?
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In order for that to happen it needs to happen very quickly and they don't have the leader who can command the confidence of the house. What I suspect BJ to do with a VoNC is to hold out for two weeks and make election day the same a B-Day. then he gets his no-deal and the election on the same day, it'd work as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
I think it remains a big, and quite possibly incorrect, assumption that Johnson wants no deal as opposed to a deal resulting from the threat of no deal. If there is a VoNC and election I think it is quite likely that Johnson will not want to schedule a date that forces the former. Because he is not wedded to Brexit except for personal gain. If no deal Brexit is disastrous then it will all be in vain. To believe he actually wants no deal is to accept the possibility that it happening really won’t be that bad.
Leaving the EU speedily does not. And yet it is speed which is prized. How very adolescent.
Article 50 set the 2 year deadline, not the UK.
Then the Government should have thought things through much more carefully and completely before triggering Article 50.
Whichever way you cut it it's down to the Tory party's gross incompetence we're in this mess.
Tory incompetence, Lib Dem intransigence, Labour game playing. There is a lot of blame to go round.
Just as Israel produces more history than can be consumed locally, so Brexit is producing more blame than can be digested by any one entity.
No... The Tories started the referendum process for their own internal political ends and at every point they have doubled down and made the crisis ever worse.
They have never offered the slightest gesture either to the nearly 50% who voted Remain or the large numbers of Leavers who wanted less political EU, but enough economic EU to be going on with. No compromise, no recognition, no sense, so now:
No EFTA No Single Market No Customs Union No Backstop
and now... a No Deal rammed through against the wishes of the clear majority of MPs and of the voters.
They are prepared to trash:
the economy, the union, the constitution the monarchy
in order to get an ultra hard Brexit
So the Tories own this fiasco and they can bloody well take whats coming to them.
Personally I can think of no humiliation that the repellent trio of Cummings, Mogg and Johnson do not deserve.
Utter crap, the Withdrawal Agreement was voted for by most Leave MPs 3 times but rejected by uncompromising die hard Remainers and Corbyn, despite the fact the political declaration was non binding.
Diehard Remainers and Labour deserve the humiliation of No Deal followed by Boris majority (even if I still back an amended Withdrawal Agreement) for their refusal to respect the Leave vote.
Your last paragraph is just childish nonsense, the Country deserves better, much better
Btw, I was thinking about the chicken game. Does it not apply to the DUP? Would they be prepared to risk being held responsible for the reintroduction of a Hard Border.
If you think that given the shift in opinion polling that anything could happen in an election a no deal exit would completely upset the board (if only temporarily). this is especially true in NI
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In lk as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
I think it remains a big, and quite possibly incorrect, assumption that Johnson wants no deal as opposed to a deal resulting from the threat of no deal. If there is a VoNC and election I think it is quite likely that Johnson will not want to schedule a date that forces the former. Because he is not wedded to Brexit except for personal gain. If no deal Brexit is disastrous then it will all be in vain. To believe he actually wants no deal is to accept the possibility that it happening really won’t be that bad.
This. Remainers should call Boris’s bluff and VONC him now. I don’t think he will actually schedule the GE after Brexit as it would have to be no-deal
Leaving the EU speedily does not. And yet it is speed which is prized. How very adolescent.
Article 50 set the 2 year deadline, not the UK.
Then the Government should have thought things through much more carefully and completely before triggering Article 50.
Whichever way you cut it it's down to the Tory party's gross incompetence we're in this mess.
No... The Tories started the referendum process for their own internal political ends and at every point they have doubled down and made the crisis ever worse.
They have never offered the slightest gesture either to the nearly 50% who voted Remain or the large numbers of Leavers who wanted less political EU, but enough economic EU to be going on with. No compromise, no recognition, no sense, so now:
No EFTA No Single Market No Customs Union No Backstop
and now... a No Deal rammed through against the wishes of the clear majority of MPs and of the voters.
They are prepared to trash:
the economy, the union, the constitution the monarchy
in order to get an ultra hard Brexit
So the Tories own this fiasco and they can bloody well take whats coming to them.
Personally I can think of no humiliation that the repellent trio of Cummings, Mogg and Johnson do not deserve.
But as long as they make money out of it it will all be worth it. This was never an argument about principle it was about saving millions in undeclared revenue and making money by betting against the pound.
Who got what revenue from where and failed to disclose it to whom?
In 2020 new regulations come into force that requires EU citizens to declare their worldwide wealth and income, failure to do so would be a criminal offense. Therefore if you are, for example an MEP with very large offshore investments you would not be very keen to have to declare that, currently, tax free income. That is why they are so desperate to get the U.K. out before these regulations come into force.
Sounds a bit batshit to me. If they haven't been declaring this money to HMRC why wouldn't they just not declare it to the EU as well?
It’s nichomar‘s favourite conspiracy theory that Brexit is all about avoiding EU financial regulation.
You forgot the hedge fund managers who also will make a killing and those who are keen to see total deregulation of the labour market, repeal of H&S laws all introduced under Henry eighth executive powers.
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In lk as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
I think it remains a big, and quite possibly incorrect, assumption that Johnson wants no deal as opposed to a deal resulting from the threat of no deal. If there is a VoNC and election I think it is quite likely that Johnson will not want to schedule a date that forces the former. Because he is not wedded to Brexit except for personal gain. If no deal Brexit is disastrous then it will all be in vain. To believe he actually wants no deal is to accept the possibility that it happening really won’t be that bad.
This. Remainers should call Boris’s bluff and VONC him now. I don’t think he will actually schedule the GE after Brexit as it would have to be no-deal
I have been saying that since yesterday.
Just table a vonc on monday as anything else leads to the Queens Speech, the EU council and 14 days to bring this to a head.
A GE cannot be fought before late november if a vonc happens on the 14th October
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In lk as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
I think it remains a big, and quite possibly incorrect, assumption that Johnson wants no deal as opposed to a deal resulting from the threat of no deal. If there is a VoNC and election I think it is quite likely that Johnson will not want to schedule a date that forces the former. Because he is not wedded to Brexit except for personal gain. If no deal Brexit is disastrous then it will all be in vain. To believe he actually wants no deal is to accept the possibility that it happening really won’t be that bad.
This. Remainers should call Boris’s bluff and VONC him now. I don’t think he will actually schedule the GE after Brexit as it would have to be no-deal
The anti nodealers, or the Remainers? The remainers still fancy their chances of revoke happening, whereas an election could guarantee Brexit in some form assuming a Johnson majority.
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In lk as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
I think it remains a big, and quite possibly incorrect, assumption that Johnson wants no deal as opposed to a deal resulting from the threat of no deal. If there is a VoNC and election I think it is quite likely that Johnson will not want to schedule a date that forces the former. Because he is not wedded to Brexit except for personal gain. If no deal Brexit is disastrous then it will all be in vain. To believe he actually wants no deal is to accept the possibility that it happening really won’t be that bad.
This. Remainers should call Boris’s bluff and VONC him now. I don’t think he will actually schedule the GE after Brexit as it would have to be no-deal
For the record, my working assumtion is that he would prefer a deal but is happy to implement No Deal if he cannot get one. Above all, if he is prevented from achieving either, it must be seen to be somebody else that prevented him.
For the record, my working assumtion is that he would prefer a deal but is happy to implement No Deal if he cannot get one. Above all, if he is prevented from achieving either, it must be seen to be somebody else that prevented him.
if he truly wanted a deal he'd be asking for something that could be delivered rather than something he knows can't
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In lk as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
I think it remains a big, and quite possibly incorrect, assumption that Johnson wants no deal as opposed to a deal resulting from the threat of no deal. If there is a VoNC and election I think it is quite likely that Johnson will not want to schedule a date that forces the former. Because he is not wedded to Brexit except for personal gain. If no deal Brexit is disastrous then it will all be in vain. To believe he actually wants no deal is to accept the possibility that it happening really won’t be that bad.
This. Remainers should call Boris’s bluff and VONC him now. I don’t think he will actually schedule the GE after Brexit as it would have to be no-deal
The straw in the wind on this is the point i’ve made that the prorogation has removed the threat of prorogation across Oct 31st forcing nodeal.
Boris Johnson’s suspension of parliament is an affront to democracy MPs must pass a no-confidence vote in the government and trigger a general election"
Yes they should - though of course that might result in Boris getting the backing for no deal in a GE which most of those upset at him want to avoid. Not guaranteed of course, I don't think he'd definitely do well, but if they want to stick it to him by ensuring we do not no deal, then passing a deal is the way to go rather than no confidence him, not agree on someone else, and trigger a GE.
Maybe it's time for voters to decide once again, in a general election.
Maybe, but the point was that still risks no deal if Boris wins that GE. If they really really don't want no deal, then they need to sort Brexit out first.
Of course, they believe not entirely without reason that they can reverse Brexit entirely through a GE, at the least delay it again and probably get a referendum to cancel it, but Boris could win and no deal. They have the means to stop that, and then go for a GE.
There could surely be no objection to a No deal Brexit it voters plumped for it at a GE.
Absolutely even if it’s leave deal or no deal as long as it is specific
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In lk as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
I think it remains a big, and quite possibly incorrect, assumption that Johnson wants no deal as opposed to a deal resulting from the threat of no deal. If there is a VoNC and election I think it is quite likely that Johnson will not want to schedule a date that forces the former. Because he is not wedded to Brexit except for personal gain. If no deal Brexit is disastrous then it will all be in vain. To believe he actually wants no deal is to accept the possibility that it happening really won’t be that bad.
This. Remainers should call Boris’s bluff and VONC him now. I don’t think he will actually schedule the GE after Brexit as it would have to be no-deal
For the record, my working assumtion is that he would prefer a deal but is happy to implement No Deal if he cannot get one. Above all, if he is prevented from achieving either, it must be seen to be somebody else that prevented him.
But does he prefer no deal to being provably prevented from doing it by others?
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In order for that to happen it needs to happen very quickly and they don't have the leader who can command the confidence of the house. What I suspect BJ to do with a VoNC is to hold out for two weeks and make election day the same a B-Day. then he gets his no-deal and the election on the same day, it'd work as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
Maybe so, but let's be optimistic for a moment. Maybe they have someone in mind but do not wish to reveal the name just yet.
Btw, I was thinking about the chicken game. Does it not apply to the DUP? Would they be prepared to risk being held responsible for the reintroduction of a Hard Border.
It's a lot easier for them to risk things, given the division of politics in NI.
You mean that no matter how bad and stupid No Deal may be, it won't cause anyone to cross the divide?
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In lk as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
I think it remains a big, and quite possibly incorrect, assumption that Johnson wants no deal as opposed to a deal resulting from the threat of no deal. If there is a VoNC and election I think it is quite likely that Johnson will not want to schedule a date that forces the former. Because he is not wedded to Brexit except for personal gain. If no deal Brexit is disastrous then it will all be in vain. To believe he actually wants no deal is to accept the possibility that it happening really won’t be that bad.
This. Remainers should call Boris’s bluff and VONC him now. I don’t think he will actually schedule the GE after Brexit as it would have to be no-deal
I have been saying that since yesterday.
Just table a vonc on monday as anything else leads to the Queens Speech, the EU council and 14 days to bring this to a head.
A GE cannot be fought before late november if a vonc happens on the 14th October
Johnson has gambled that the Rebels will not have the votes to VonC this early on.
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In lk as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
I think it remains a big, and quite possibly incorrect, assumption that Johnson wants no deal as opposed to a deal resulting from the threat of no deal. If there is a VoNC and election I think it is quite likely that Johnson will not want to schedule a date that forces the former. Because he is not wedded to Brexit except for personal gain. If no deal Brexit is disastrous then it will all be in vain. To believe he actually wants no deal is to accept the possibility that it happening really won’t be that bad.
This. Remainers should call Boris’s bluff and VONC him now. I don’t think he will actually schedule the GE after Brexit as it would have to be no-deal
For the record, my working assumtion is that he would prefer a deal but is happy to implement No Deal if he cannot get one. Above all, if he is prevented from achieving either, it must be seen to be somebody else that prevented him.
But does he prefer no deal to being provably prevented from doing it by others?
Doubt it. He's seen the Civil Service papers on the likely consequences of No Deal.
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In lk as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
I think it remains a big, and quite possibly incorrect, assumption that Johnson wants no deal as opposed to a deal resulting from the threat of no deal. If there is a VoNC and election I think it is quite likely that Johnson will not want to schedule a date that forces the former. Because he is not wedded to Brexit except for personal gain. If no deal Brexit is disastrous then it will all be in vain. To believe he actually wants no deal is to accept the possibility that it happening really won’t be that bad.
This. Remainers should call Boris’s bluff and VONC him now. I don’t think he will actually schedule the GE after Brexit as it would have to be no-deal
For the record, my working assumtion is that he would prefer a deal but is happy to implement No Deal if he cannot get one. Above all, if he is prevented from achieving either, it must be seen to be somebody else that prevented him.
I think you are to trusting regarding Johnson .He wants no deal, to diminish the Brexit vote. Then an election to win a majority. Anyone believing his words , that no deal is a million to one chance.Is gullible in the extreme.
For the record, my working assumtion is that he would prefer a deal but is happy to implement No Deal if he cannot get one. Above all, if he is prevented from achieving either, it must be seen to be somebody else that prevented him.
if he truly wanted a deal he'd be asking for something that could be delivered rather than something he knows can't
Not sure. I can see a case for improving the negotiating position by bluffing, although in this case it doesn't really work that well.
Leaving the EU speedily does not. And yet it is speed which is prized. How very adolescent.
Article 50 set the 2 year deadline, not the UK.
Then the Government should have thought things through much more carefully and completely before triggering Article 50.
Whichever way you cut it it's down to the Tory party's gross incompetence we're in this mess.
Tory incompetence, Lib Dem intransigence, Labour game playing. There is a lot of blame to go round.
Just as Israel produces more history than can be consumed locally, so Brexit is producing more blame than can be digested by any one entity.
No... The Tories started the referendum process for their own internal political ends and at every point they have doubled down and made the crisis ever worse.
They have never offered the slightest gesture either to the nearly 50% who voted Remain or the large numbers of Leavers who wanted less political EU, but enough economic EU to be going on with. No compromise, no recognition, no sense, so now:
No EFTA No Single Market No Customs Union No Backstop
and now... a No Deal rammed through against the wishes of the clear majority of MPs and of the voters.
They are prepared to trash:
the economy, the union, the constitution the monarchy
in order to get an ultra hard Brexit
So the Tories own this fiasco and they can bloody well take whats coming to them.
Personally I can think of no humiliation that the repellent trio of Cummings, Mogg and Johnson do not deserve.
Utter crap, the Withdrawal Agreement was voted for by most Leave MPs 3 times but rejected by uncompromising die hard Remainers and Corbyn, despite the fact the political declaration was non binding.
Diehard Remainers and Labour deserve the humiliation of No Deal followed by Boris majority (even if I still back an amended Withdrawal Agreement) for their refusal to respect the Leave vote.
"Utter crap, the Withdrawal Agreement was voted for by most Leave MPs 3 times but rejected by uncompromising die hard Remainers and Corbyn, despite the fact the political declaration was non binding."
You do occasionally try to pass off as an intelligent person. But please tell us in which category should we put, Steve Baker, Mark Francois, ERG...: 1. Die Hard Remainers 2. Corbyn and Labour
For the record, my working assumtion is that he would prefer a deal but is happy to implement No Deal if he cannot get one. Above all, if he is prevented from achieving either, it must be seen to be somebody else that prevented him.
if he truly wanted a deal he'd be asking for something that could be delivered rather than something he knows can't
Not sure. I can see a case for improving the negotiating position by bluffing, although in this case it doesn't really work that well.
Honestly, this is such a poor decision both politically and democratically. I can see the logic of it, but a leader needs to see past that and do what's right, even if it means a tougher road in the short term.
Johnson's clear strategy is to squeeze Brexit Party voters in an imminent election.
It's a strategy that depends totally on erstwhile Labour voters switching to the Lib Dems because the former party is soft on Brexit. They inadvertently let through the candidate of the man they loathe above all. Shutting down Parliament might not encourage them to be helpful to Johnson's cunning plan.
For the record, my working assumtion is that he would prefer a deal but is happy to implement No Deal if he cannot get one. Above all, if he is prevented from achieving either, it must be seen to be somebody else that prevented him.
if he truly wanted a deal he'd be asking for something that could be delivered rather than something he knows can't
It seems to me he's asking for the only thing that parliament will approve. If he wants a deal, that is what he has to ask for regardless of whether or not the EU can deliver it. If he wants a deal there is no point asking for something the EU can deliver but parliament will reject.
I voted Labour for every election I could before Corbyn took over. I support big raises in the minimim wage, capital gains tax and inheritance tax. But I am also a (secular) Jew, who, for some odd reason, doesn't want to vote for a man that went to a remembrance service for a killer of Jewish civilians. Why do you think that could be?
I respect your views - who couldn't? But I've known Corbyn on and off for 53 years. My own views should not be in doubt: I'm a former member of the Labour Friends of Israel national executive. I do think that as a backbencher his kneejerk sympathy for Third World movements led him astray from time to time, and he now recognises that himself. Frankly all of us in politics have said and done things over 5 decades that we now regret. I do not think he is in any way antisemitic, and I think you're mistaken to refuse to consider voting for your local Labour candidate because you suspect his leader.
Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who couldn't be bothered to be seen by photographers in the same room as Swinson, Blackford and the others?
They should have just about enough votes to install a new government and leader by a week today. Interesting that they don't mention it among the demands they make on others.
In lk as a strategy to get leavers to vote for him.
Indeed. Their joint statement just happens to fail to mention that even now they have no agreement on the one thing that matters - what they want and who should lead. Hopeless.
I think it remains a big, and quite possibly incorrect, assumption that Johnson wants no deal as opposed to a deal resulting from the threat of no deal. If there is a VoNC and election I think it is quite likely that Johnson will not want to schedule a date that forces the former. Because he is not wedded to Brexit except for personal gain. If no deal Brexit is disastrous then it will all be in vain. To believe he actually wants no deal is to accept the possibility that it happening really won’t be that bad.
This. Remainers should call Boris’s bluff and VONC him now. I don’t think he will actually schedule the GE after Brexit as it would have to be no-deal
Vonc the odious Bunter first thing Monday morning. Do it.
An ineffective flu vaccine in 2017-2018 was estimated to have contributed to over 50,000 additional deaths, so we could be talking about quite large numbers of Brexit fatalities from this effect alone.
How many deaths do people think would be justified by the need to sate Johnson's political ambition?
HYUFD has had a brain transplant. He was once a moderate sensible Tory. These days he’s a frothing Trumptonite Bunterish nutcase.
Leave him! He’s not worff it!
When Boris and Brexit hits the brick wall. HYUFD is going to be in pieces. I hope he gets paid for writing the stuff he does as he is heading for one hell of a meltdown...
Not a surprise, unfortunately. He's one of the good guys, who has been a loyal Conservative for a long time and has done a lot behind the scenes. Not long before th 2010 election, David Cameron asked him to become the Watford candidate at short notice, after the previous candidate had been prosecuted for a bizarre and very unpleasant series of attempts to harass the then LibDem MP Sal Brinton. At the time there was virtually no local association structure left. Richard very rapidly put together a crack team, quickly raised some donations (including from me), and worked very hard to win the seat. It was one of the great Conservative successes of 2010.
Unfortunately he is far too sensible for the modern Conservative Party, as he's dead against a No Deal crash out. Relations with his local association have broken down completely, as the mad ideologues have taken over. I doubt if the party will now retain Watford.
Sal Brinton was never the LibDem MP for Watford . Until 2010 the seat was Labour-held!
I can see why remainers would be angry. Using arcane legal processes and delaying tactics is meant to be their thing.
Well, yes, but the rightness or wrongness of the move is irrespective of whether it involves playing procedural silly buggers and who did it first.
I disagree. Opinions regarding its acceptability are, as far as I can see, entirely divided along Brexit lines.
The foam flecked champions of parliamentary democracy who are so incensed by an effective four day reduction of parliamentary deliberation, had absolutely zero concern about up to 65 percent of Westminster legislation originating in Brussels - a diminution of the sovereignty of parliament by several orders greater. Motes and beams come to mind. And the fact that they think they're so awfully clever that nobody sees their ridiculous hypocrisy is chuckle worthy.
I voted Labour for every election I could before Corbyn took over. I support big raises in the minimim wage, capital gains tax and inheritance tax. But I am also a (secular) Jew, who, for some odd reason, doesn't want to vote for a man that went to a remembrance service for a killer of Jewish civilians. Why do you think that could be?
I respect your views - who couldn't? But I've known Corbyn on and off for 53 years. My own views should not be in doubt: I'm a former member of the Labour Friends of Israel national executive. I do think that as a backbencher his kneejerk sympathy for Third World movements led him astray from time to time, and he now recognises that himself. Frankly all of us in politics have said and done things over 5 decades that we now regret. I do not think he is in any way antisemitic, and I think you're mistaken to refuse to consider voting for your local Labour candidate because you suspect his leader.
Gabs, as a matter of interest, who is your constituency MP?
HYUFD has had a brain transplant. He was once a moderate sensible Tory. These days he’s a frothing Trumptonite Bunterish nutcase.
Leave him! He’s not worff it!
When Boris and Brexit hits the brick wall. HYUFD is going to be in pieces. I hope he gets paid for writing the stuff he does as he is heading for one hell of a meltdown...
When it does not, what are you going to do? You seem rather on edge about the whole thing at the best of times.
Apropos of absolutely nothing but how do you guys manage to keep up with the comments here, particularly when we're in crisis mode (which is probably most of the last 3 years)?
Go away for 45 minutes and there's another full page of comments to read :-D
Login once a week. The comments are always the same so you miss nothing.
HYUFD has had a brain transplant. He was once a moderate sensible Tory. These days he’s a frothing Trumptonite Bunterish nutcase.
Leave him! He’s not worff it!
When Boris and Brexit hits the brick wall. HYUFD is going to be in pieces. I hope he gets paid for writing the stuff he does as he is heading for one hell of a meltdown...
No he will just buy the new home and away kit with the new sponsors name on it, the home kit will always be blue.
Those 4 in Labour who would not vote No Confidence but would support no deal Brexit should really already have had the Labour whip removed.
I would expect that if 20 Conservatives vote No Confidence in the Government then there would be more than 20 voting for a GoNU not lead by Corby assuming the VoNC had already gone through. There must be some who would begrudgingly support Johnson in a VoNC but would say "Sorry, but you need to step aside" once the VoNC is lost.
That is crazy. People like Caroline Flint have done nothing but represent their working class constituents and try to pass a deal that protects them, while implementing the referendum result. You can't blame people who voted for a deal three times that there is no deal.
Labour MPs should not be supporting the conservative PM in a VoNC.
Nor would they - with the possible exception of Kate Hoey.
Good point. Never can be too sure with them I'm with you on that one. Is there a committee he can go in front of to confirm?
I think you are misunderstanding me.
My view is that failure to support Labour because of antisemitism is wrong.
But - and it's a big but - it makes a difference to me whether or not the person doing the failure to support because of antisemitism is sincere in advancing that as the reason.
Because there are people for whom it is a convenient virtue signalling cover for a variety of other things. For example, a fear that Labour would damage their personal prosperity, tax their house, abolish private schools, whatever.
And as I say, I do see a difference there. I take a dim view of the latter but not the former.
Not a surprise, unfortunately. He's one of the good guys, who has been a loyal Conservative for a long time and has done a lot behind the scenes. Not long before th 2010 election, David Cameron asked him to become the Watford candidate at short notice, after the previous candidate had been prosecuted for a bizarre and very unpleasant series of attempts to harass the then LibDem MP Sal Brinton. At the time there was virtually no local association structure left. Richard very rapidly put together a crack team, quickly raised some donations (including from me), and worked very hard to win the seat. It was one of the great Conservative successes of 2010.
Unfortunately he is far too sensible for the modern Conservative Party, as he's dead against a No Deal crash out. Relations with his local association have broken down completely, as the mad ideologues have taken over. I doubt if the party will now retain Watford.
He did some weird stuff though with the local association
Comments
I do note that Cummings lived 10 years in Russia, Mogg is said to have clients whose beneficial owners are Russian oligarchs... Christ, even their leader is called Boris...
Btw, I was thinking about the chicken game. Does it not apply to the DUP? Would they be prepared to risk being held responsible for the reintroduction of a Hard Border.
Of course, they believe not entirely without reason that they can reverse Brexit entirely through a GE, at the least delay it again and probably get a referendum to cancel it, but Boris could win and no deal. They have the means to stop that, and then go for a GE.
1. People who are sincere when they say it is antisemitism that stops them voting for a left wing Labour party.
2. People who aren't.
I do think the distinction is important.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1167150604831068160
Just table a vonc on monday as anything else leads to the Queens Speech, the EU council and 14 days to bring this to a head.
A GE cannot be fought before late november if a vonc happens on the 14th October
Yes, I get that.
Then an election to win a majority.
Anyone believing his words , that no deal is a million to one chance.Is gullible in the extreme.
If so, she needed firing for the spelling alone.
You do occasionally try to pass off as an intelligent person. But please tell us in which category should we put, Steve Baker, Mark Francois, ERG...:
1. Die Hard Remainers
2. Corbyn and Labour
Out of control.
The Deep State has its work cut out with this one...
It's a strategy that depends totally on erstwhile Labour voters switching to the Lib Dems because the former party is soft on Brexit. They inadvertently let through the candidate of the man they loathe above all. Shutting down Parliament might not encourage them to be helpful to Johnson's cunning plan.
HYUFD has had a brain transplant. He was once a moderate sensible Tory. These days he’s a frothing Trumptonite Bunterish nutcase.
Leave him! He’s not worff it!
https://twitter.com/Ommasalma?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author and http://www.csap.cam.ac.uk/network/salma-shah/
Sorry, does not compute.
Edit: for the benefit of my many Unionist friends, this is a Joke.
How many deaths do people think would be justified by the need to sate Johnson's political ambition?
The foam flecked champions of parliamentary democracy who are so incensed by an effective four day reduction of parliamentary deliberation, had absolutely zero concern about up to 65 percent of Westminster legislation originating in Brussels - a diminution of the sovereignty of parliament by several orders greater. Motes and beams come to mind. And the fact that they think they're so awfully clever that nobody sees their ridiculous hypocrisy is chuckle worthy.
My view is that failure to support Labour because of antisemitism is wrong.
But - and it's a big but - it makes a difference to me whether or not the person doing the failure to support because of antisemitism is sincere in advancing that as the reason.
Because there are people for whom it is a convenient virtue signalling cover for a variety of other things. For example, a fear that Labour would damage their personal prosperity, tax their house, abolish private schools, whatever.
And as I say, I do see a difference there. I take a dim view of the latter but not the former.
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1167131108418433024
Expect to be around a bit more after Brexit when the same old arguments have disappeared.
A bientot.