I suspect Boris was told that the Queen would veto any prorogation that covered 31st October or began before Parliament could pass a VONC, and the dates we have ended up with are a compromise
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
So fewer voters oppose proroguing Parliament than even the 48% who voted Remain then and a majority of Tory and Leave voters back proroguing Parliament to enforce Brexit.
Under FPTP Boris can win on that as a last restort with a split Remainer vote, while still trying for a technical solution for the Irish border first
Have you considered a career as a spin doctor? I believe Alastair Campbell has retired.
I thought he was kicked out for exercising his democratic prerogative - like Heseltine.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Don't lie like your hero Boris.
I'm not a diehard remainer, I've said we should respect the vote to leave, as was campaigned, and Boris Johnson and his fellow bunch of campaigners said we would Leave with a deal.
In @HUYFD's world there are no Remainers only diehard Remainers.
"I am not a diehard Remainer. I am an exceptional Remainer!"
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Don't lie like your hero Boris.
I'm not a diehard remainer, I've said we should respect the vote to leave, as was campaigned, and Boris Johnson and his fellow bunch of campaigners said we would Leave with a deal.
In @HUYFD's world there are no Remainers only diehard Remainers.
One of the highlights of this year was seeing Remain voting HYUFD tell leaving voting Stodge and Casino Royale that they are not proper Brexiteers.
He is a diehard line taker. Once the Leader has declared the story of the day/week/whatever, that becomes the new truth.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
Note, YouGov did not use the correct but perhaps leading word “suspend” in their question.
Noteworthy than a fair chunk of Leavers are not happy with Boris's manoeuvre. I suppose this would equate roughly to the chunk that want to leave but not on No Deal terms.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Don't lie like your hero Boris.
I'm not a diehard remainer, I've said we should respect the vote to leave, as was campaigned, and Boris Johnson and his fellow bunch of campaigners said we would Leave with a deal.
In @HUYFD's world there are no Remainers only diehard Remainers.
One of the highlights of this year was seeing Remain voting HYUFD tell leaving voting Stodge and Casino Royale that they are not proper Brexiteers.
You should be in the tower, Screaming, with some of the stuff you posted today. I was sure you account had been hacked. Or maybe your mind.
And OGH posts, don’t worry, leaving it all in safe hands of Screaming.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
So fewer voters oppose proroguing Parliament than even the 48% who voted Remain then and a majority of Tory and Leave voters back proroguing Parliament to enforce Brexit.
Under FPTP Boris can win on that as a last restort with a split Remainer vote, while still trying for a technical solution for the Irish border first
It's good to know come rain, shine or constitutional warfare, HYUFD will still valiantly put a very unconvincing spin on opinion polls.
Some things never change!
It’s only ever about the future of the blue team, after all you have the full home and away kits you have invested you’re life in supporting them. They can’t tell you why they should survive but you just have to believe that it is their god given right to. They are lying shysters who are only interested in the future of the Conservative party and ensuring their venture capitalist backers continue to make money and the Uber rich can keep their off shore investments hidden from Financial Transparency regulations coming their n in 2020. This is the only reason they want brexit it has fuck all to do with the left behind it’s all about making more money for themselves.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Don't lie like your hero Boris.
I'm not a diehard remainer, I've said we should respect the vote to leave, as was campaigned, and Boris Johnson and his fellow bunch of campaigners said we would Leave with a deal.
In @HUYFD's world there are no Remainers only diehard Remainers.
One of the highlights of this year was seeing Remain voting HYUFD tell leaving voting Stodge and Casino Royale that they are not proper Brexiteers.
He is a diehard line taker. Once the Leader has declared the story of the day/week/whatever, that becomes the new truth.
... I always voted at my party's call, And I never thought of thinking for myself at all.
In terms of firing up your base, firing up your opponents, and making Britain look even dafter in eyes of the world, we’ll done Boris.
In terms of passing off five weeks suspension at this crucial time as normal, day after your opponents vowed to use parliamentary time to thwart you, it is the lamest of cover stories.
But in terms of avoiding scrutiny on just about everything, and avoiding your opponents stopping no deal, it doesn’t (but then you don’t really want it to do you Cummings). Because this still leaves plenty of parliamentary time to scrutinise Boris negotiated deal, and block no deal if necessary. It was always wise to wait till October to do that anyway, to avoid team Boris calling you a traitor and saboteur of his negotiation.
Lets not rule out this as clever, Trumpesque, base mobilising smoke screen. Nothing more. There’s only one action top of Boris to do list, whats the alternate plan for the backstop. The backstop is there to avoid a hard border across Ireland when UK and EU are operating different customs regimes. The hard border not only breaks treaties signed up to by the UK government, in practice it will become focal for protest, likely end up with British troops manning it. The previous PMs negotiation came up with this backstop, did not come up with an alternative even in face of mortal destruction. Boris governments official policy is not we don’t like the backstop so no backstop, the only honest policy or realistic negotiation is an alternative plan to be agreed with EU replacing proposed backstop, something Boris with customary oomph agreed to have settled in just 30 days last week, accepting it was up to Britain to provide a solution, and said he was "more than happy" with the "blistering timetable" Merkel had set out. So Boris, the EU heads of state and negotiators, the British people, the whole world is waiting to hear your plan for alternative backstop, your timetable is ticking down. If the opposition parties are smart they shouldn’t allow themselves to be distracted, this is the line they should keep the pressure up with. “why are you prevaricating day after day and chucking out Trumpesque chaff?” Where’s your backstop alternative?
Welcome to PB Mr Egg.
Your point is a good one... where is that backstop alternative Boris?
Where is that backstop alternative Boris?
Don’t let him get away with Trump style distractions.
Where is that backstop alternative Boris? Should be the only question in town.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
So fewer voters oppose proroguing Parliament than even the 48% who voted Remain then and a majority of Tory and Leave voters back proroguing Parliament to enforce Brexit.
Under FPTP Boris can win on that as a last restort with a split Remainer vote, while still trying for a technical solution for the Irish border first
Have you considered a career as a spin doctor? I believe Alastair Campbell has retired.
In terms of firing up your base, firing up your opponents, and making Britain look even dafter in eyes of the world, we’ll done Boris.
In terms of passing off five weeks suspension at this crucial time as normal, day after your opponents vowed to use parliamentary time to thwart you, it is the lamest of cover stories.
But in terms of avoiding scrutiny on just about everything, and avoiding your opponents stopping no deal, it doesn’t (but then you don’t really want it to do you Cummings). Because this still leaves plenty of parliamentary time to scrutinise Boris negotiated deal, and block no deal if necessary. It was always wise to wait till October to do that anyway, to avoid team Boris calling you a traitor and saboteur of his negotiation.
Lets not rule out this as clever, Trumpesque, base mobilising smoke screen. Nothing more. There’s only one action top of Boris to do list, whats the alternate plan for the backstop. The backstop is there to avoid a hard border across Ireland when UK and EU are operating different customs regimes. The hard border not only breaks treaties signed up to by the UK government, in practice it will become focal for protest, likely end up with British troops manning it. The previous PMs negotiation came up with this backstop, did not come up with an alternative even in face of mortal destruction. Boris governments official policy is not we don’t like the backstop so no backstop, the only honest policy or realistic negotiation is an alternative plan to be agreed with EU replacing proposed backstop, something Boris with customary oomph agreed to have settled in just 30 days last week, accepting it was up to Britain to provide a solution, and said he was "more than happy" with the "blistering timetable" Merkel had set out. So Boris, the EU heads of state and negotiators, the British people, the whole world is waiting to hear your plan for alternative backstop, your timetable is ticking down. If the opposition parties are smart they shouldn’t allow themselves to be distracted, this is the line they should keep the pressure up with. “why are you prevaricating day after day and chucking out Trumpesque chaff?” Where’s your backstop alternative?
Welcome to PB Mr Egg.
Your point is a good one... where is that backstop alternative Boris?
Where is that backstop alternative Boris?
Don’t let him get away with Trump style distractions.
Where is that backstop alternative Boris? Should be the only question in town.
Where it has always been.
It’s up to Britain to provide a solution. Where’s that alternative backstop Boris?
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Perhaps, but I always thought support for monarchy, the UK and stable finances was part of the Tory brand and apparently that is not true either.
Respecting British sovereignty and keeping control of our borders is also part of the Tory brand as is respecting democratic votes, the Tories are not just a neoliberal party
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
Note, YouGov did not use the correct but perhaps leading word “suspend” in their question.
Noteworthy than a fair chunk of Leavers are not happy with Boris's manoeuvre. I suppose this would equate roughly to the chunk that want to leave but not on No Deal terms.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
I don't think Nigel Farage is going to disappear until he is put in a coffin. If it is not Brexit he is campaigning on, it will be immigration or law and order or something populist. He is a narcist and all the Brexit supporting media and the Tory party are doing is amplifying his message. I am amazed how some Tories go along with all this even though they may never have voted for Brexit or even support the positions the Tory party are taking on key policies....
The Tories can win with the Brexit Party on 10 to 15% as now and in 2015, they cannot win with the Brexit Party on 20 to 25% as was the case when May extended
UKIP were on 25% in the run up to the 2015 election.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Perhaps, but I always thought support for monarchy, the UK and stable finances was part of the Tory brand and apparently that is not true either.
There will surely be an uptick , to have a modern democracy with a written constitution. Not that I expect any change.
I do wonder if Boris can suspend Parliament now whether in a No Deal Brexit, he might try and abolish it! History has some notable figures that have marginalised democratic institutions because they did not like the output in them.
Indeed, I think Thatcher abolished the GLC because she objected to its policies, she also imposed rate capping and other draconian measures because she disagreed with the democratically elected individuals who occupied power in local authorities. The Tories have been the enemy of representative democracy in the recent past and have a history of manipulating the state to get the outcome the leadership of the time wished to implement.
Why would he change a (sort of) winning formula by doing something smart?
More seriously, I think he's now out of further options. They only other things he can realistically do are either try to pass a bill to Revoke, in which case Labour Leavers go apeshit, or pass the deal, in which case the much larger number of Labour Remainers go apeshit, or pass control of the fight to Swinson, or resign.
All those options are unpalatable. VONC and heroic defeat it has to be.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Perhaps, but I always thought support for monarchy, the UK and stable finances was part of the Tory brand and apparently that is not true either.
Respecting British sovereignty and keeping control of our borders is also part of the Tory brand as is respecting democratic votes, the Tories are not just a neoliberal party
Conservative (slow, steady and responsible) was the Tory brand. It isn't anymore as a lot of former Tory members on here will tell you.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
Really - which ones?
On the latest YouGov the Tories would gain 36 Labour mainly Leave seats from Kensington, Dudley North and Newcastle Under Lyme to Darlington, Weaver Vale and Rother Valley
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Perhaps, but I always thought support for monarchy, the UK and stable finances was part of the Tory brand and apparently that is not true either.
Respecting British sovereignty and keeping control of our borders is also part of the Tory brand as is respecting democratic votes, the Tories are not just a neoliberal party
The democratic constitution, the Union, the monarchy, the economy - Boris's Tory party will trash all of them before it's through if left unchecked.
I suspect Boris was told that the Queen would veto any prorogation that covered 31st October or began before Parliament could pass a VONC, and the dates we have ended up with are a compromise
"lead to understand" surely, and "might" not would.
HMQ's day has been much as any other - accommodating reasonable requests from her subjects and advisers.
I'm sure she'll listen to Corbyn, Swinson, and whoever else she can't avoid meeting and not interfere.
Corbyn's tea might not be the best the Palace has ever made mind you. (The kitchens were too busy)
That Davidson and Boris Johnson have a terrible relationship is neither a secret nor quite the point. It doesn’t help, but the fact Davidson considers the prime minister a **** is not, on its own, enough to force her out. But again, it hardly helps. And, to be clear, she doesn’t think the prime minister a ****, she considers him a ****.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Perhaps, but I always thought support for monarchy, the UK and stable finances was part of the Tory brand and apparently that is not true either.
Respecting British sovereignty and keeping control of our borders is also part of the Tory brand as is respecting democratic votes, the Tories are not just a neoliberal party
The tories are just a front for hedge fund managers and tax avoiders, just admit it it will free you!
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. ....d for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Don't lie like your hero Boris.
I'm not a diehard remainer, I've said we should respect the vote to leave, as was campaigned, and Boris Johnson and his fellow bunch of campaigners said we would Leave with a deal.
In @HUYFD's world there are no Remainers only diehard Remainers.
One of the highlights of this year was seeing Remain voting HYUFD tell leaving voting Stodge and Casino Royale that they are not proper Brexiteers.
He is a diehard line taker. Once the Leader has declared the story of the day/week/whatever, that becomes the new truth.
... I always voted at my party's call, And I never thought of thinking for myself at all.
When in that House M.P.’s divide, If they’ve a brain and cerebellum, too, They’ve got to leave that brain outside, And vote just as their leaders tell ’em to. But then the prospect of a lot Of dull M. P.’s in close proximity, All thinking for themselves, is what No man can face with equanimity....
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Perhaps, but I always thought support for monarchy, the UK and stable finances was part of the Tory brand and apparently that is not true either.
Respecting British sovereignty and keeping control of our borders is also part of the Tory brand as is respecting democratic votes, the Tories are not just a neoliberal party
Conservative (slow, steady and responsible) was the Tory brand. It isn't anymore as a lot of former Tory members on here will tell you.
'Slow, steady and responsible' is certainly not how you would describe Tory leaders like Salisbury or Churchill or Thatcher, when the country has needed radical action and a tough leader who will take on establishment thinking the Tories have delivered it
I suspect Boris was told that the Queen would veto any prorogation that covered 31st October or began before Parliament could pass a VONC, and the dates we have ended up with are a compromise
"lead to understand" surely, and "might" not would.
HMQ's day has been much as any other - accommodating reasonable requests from her subjects and advisers.
I'm sure she'll listen to Corbyn, Swinson, and whoever else she can't avoid meeting and not interfere.
Corbyn's tea might not be the best the Palace has ever made mind you. (The kitchens were too busy)
Being an egg of course, you shouldn’t find me speaking against gammon.
One casualty of today’s hyperbole has been the monarchy. Events, dear boy, events have put the queen right in the middle of it, have they not? Constitutionally the Queen is free to decide whether or not to go along with the government’s plans or support the sovereign parliament. The convention though is the Queen does what she’s told by the PM, and his lap mogg. But in normal times the PM has the full support of a majority in the Commons. So Its difficult spot for the queen, is this But whose fault is that, Johnsons or Corbyn’s? I would lay the blame at door of Corbyns letter, yet more evidence the man and those around him are mendacious fools. That letter should have been jointly signed by all opposition leaders in parliament, if it was a good idea. But even then that letter spotlights the impotence of the Queen and the role of the monarch’s powers. So only an anti monarchist could think that letter a good idea.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
So fewer voters oppose proroguing Parliament than even the 48% who voted Remain then and a majority of Tory and Leave voters back proroguing Parliament to enforce Brexit.
Under FPTP Boris can win on that as a last restort with a split Remainer vote, while still trying for a technical solution for the Irish border first
It's good to know come rain, shine or constitutional warfare, HYUFD will still valiantly put a very unconvincing spin on opinion polls.
Some things never change!
It’s only ever about the future of the blue team, after all you have the full home and away kits you have invested you’re life in supporting them. They can’t tell you why they should survive but you just have to believe that it is their god given right to. They are lying shysters who are only interested in the future of the Conservative party and ensuring their venture capitalist backers continue to make money and the Uber rich can keep their off shore investments hidden from Financial Transparency regulations coming their n in 2020. This is the only reason they want brexit it has fuck all to do with the left behind it’s all about making more money for themselves.
'Slow, steady and responsible' is certainly not how you would describe Tory leaders like Salisbury or Churchill or Thatcher, when the country has needed radical action and a tough leader who will take on establishment thinking the Tories have delivered it
I would argue both Asquith and Attlee were radicals who challenged establishment thinking as was Wilson in the social field who challenged traditional views on abortion, homosexuality and the abolition of capital punishment.
Respecting British sovereignty and keeping control of our borders is also part of the Tory brand as is respecting democratic votes, the Tories are not just a neoliberal party
The tories are just a front for hedge fund managers and tax avoiders, just admit it it will free you!
Well, so are Labour in all fairness. They just call them 'trades unions' for short.
One of the most exasperating things about Brexit is how it has totally shredded the party system, and by extension our democratic system, which while not perfect had actually mostly worked satisfactorily for 330 years.
The next question is what replaces it. Both Johnson and Corbyn display alarming Messiah-like complexes comparable to nutters like Trump, Netanyahu, Chavez, Putin and Modi, although neither of them have even remotely the ability of even the thickest of those. Neither are fit for any sort of public office. Corbyn was out of his depth as a Housing Asssociation officer, FFS. But we're lumbered with them, so we have no escape.
'Slow, steady and responsible' is certainly not how you would describe Tory leaders like Salisbury or Churchill or Thatcher, when the country has needed radical action and a tough leader who will take on establishment thinking the Tories have delivered it
I would argue both Asquith and Attlee were radicals who challenged establishment thinking as was Wilson in the social field who challenged traditional views on abortion, homosexuality and the abolition of capital punishment.
And Churchill was not Tory party leader when he took his most radical action - refusing peace talks with Germany in summer 1940.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
I don't think Nigel Farage is going to disappear until he is put in a coffin. If it is not Brexit he is campaigning on, it will be immigration or law and order or something populist. He is a narcist and all the Brexit supporting media and the Tory party are doing is amplifying his message. I am amazed how some Tories go along with all this even though they may never have voted for Brexit or even support the positions the Tory party are taking on key policies....
The Tories can win with the Brexit Party on 10 to 15% as now and in 2015, they cannot win with the Brexit Party on 20 to 25% as was the case when May extended
UKIP were on 25% in the run up to the 2015 election.
The Tories were still tied ahead on 31% in that poll, under May they were 4th.
In any case the Brexit Party got 26% with YouGov and Opinium in May and June and were first, higher even than UKIP got in that poll with the Tories 4th on just 17%
Noted a few Conservative district/county councillors today tweeting disapproval of prorogation ("disgraceful... I fundamentally disagree" in the latest). This may not enthuse the activist base.
Noted a few Conservative district/county councillors today tweeting disapproval of prorogation ("disgraceful... I fundamentally disagree" in the latest). This may not enthuse the activist base.
I spoke to a Tory councillor today, his view was we've created a terrible precedent for when Corbyn pulls this trick.
I suspect Boris was told that the Queen would veto any prorogation that covered 31st October or began before Parliament could pass a VONC, and the dates we have ended up with are a compromise
"lead to understand" surely, and "might" not would.
HMQ's day has been much as any other - accommodating reasonable requests from her subjects and advisers.
I'm sure she'll listen to Corbyn, Swinson, and whoever else she can't avoid meeting and not interfere.
Corbyn's tea might not be the best the Palace has ever made mind you. (The kitchens were too busy)
Being an egg of course, you shouldn’t find me speaking against gammon.
One casualty of today’s hyperbole has been the monarchy. Events, dear boy, events have put the queen right in the middle of it, have they not? Constitutionally the Queen is free to decide whether or not to go along with the government’s plans or support the sovereign parliament. The convention though is the Queen does what she’s told by the PM, and his lap mogg. But in normal times the PM has the full support of a majority in the Commons. So Its difficult spot for the queen, is this But whose fault is that, Johnsons or Corbyn’s? I would lay the blame at door of Corbyns letter, yet more evidence the man and those around him are mendacious fools. That letter should have been jointly signed by all opposition leaders in parliament, if it was a good idea. But even then that letter spotlights the impotence of the Queen and the role of the monarch’s powers. So only an anti monarchist could think that letter a good idea.
Well, yes. Although I don't agree that the monarchy has been caught up in this. As I said - HMQ's day, much as any other. (Some clever people making sure that's so, and they deserve a quiet hat tip)
The Queen is obviously just advised by the PM.
A joint letter may have been a little more problematic, but it'd be the same response. She doesn't interfere..
I suspect Boris was told that the Queen would veto any prorogation that covered 31st October or began before Parliament could pass a VONC, and the dates we have ended up with are a compromise
"lead to understand" surely, and "might" not would.
HMQ's day has been much as any other - accommodating reasonable requests from her subjects and advisers.
I'm sure she'll listen to Corbyn, Swinson, and whoever else she can't avoid meeting and not interfere.
Corbyn's tea might not be the best the Palace has ever made mind you. (The kitchens were too busy)
Why should she be inimical to Corbyn, who has done nothing to threaten the Union, unlike one of her earlier visitors?
If we leave with No Deal, the ERG will think they have played it perfectly. What will the MPs who voted Remain in 2016, pledged to respect the leave victory in their 2017 GE campaigns, then voted three times against Theresa May’s agreement with the EU thereafter console themselves with?
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
Not much use then, given they will lose 30-40 seats to the Lib Dems as well.
Actually on the latest YouGov the LDs would only win 13 Tory seats
I suspect Boris was told that the Queen would veto any prorogation that covered 31st October or began before Parliament could pass a VONC, and the dates we have ended up with are a compromise
"lead to understand" surely, and "might" not would.
HMQ's day has been much as any other - accommodating reasonable requests from her subjects and advisers.
I'm sure she'll listen to Corbyn, Swinson, and whoever else she can't avoid meeting and not interfere.
Corbyn's tea might not be the best the Palace has ever made mind you. (The kitchens were too busy)
Why should she be inimical to Corbyn, who has done nothing to threaten the Union, unlike one of her earlier visitors?
Corbyn, the avowed supporter of the IRA, has done nothing to threaten the Union?!!!
I know Johnson may have lost his marbles (if he ever had any) but can we please keep a sense of proportion here?
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
So fewer voters oppose proroguing Parliament than even the 48% who voted Remain then and a majority of Tory and Leave voters back proroguing Parliament to enforce Brexit.
Under FPTP Boris can win on that as a last restort with a split Remainer vote, while still trying for a technical solution for the Irish border first
Have you considered a career as a spin doctor? I believe Alastair Campbell has retired.
Well if Boris offers a big enough sum I suppose I might consider it...
If we leave with No Deal, the ERG will think they have played it perfectly. What will the MPs who voted Remain in 2016, pledged to respect the leave victory in their 2017 GE campaigns, then voted three times against Theresa May’s agreement with the EU thereafter console themselves with?
The fact that the chaos of No Deal will be quickly apparent to everyone and we will be negotiating to re-join?
Respecting British sovereignty and keeping control of our borders is also part of the Tory brand as is respecting democratic votes, the Tories are not just a neoliberal party
The tories are just a front for hedge fund managers and tax avoiders, just admit it it will free you!
Well, so are Labour in all fairness. They just call them 'trades unions' for short.
One of the most exasperating things about Brexit is how it has totally shredded the party system, and by extension our democratic system, which while not perfect had actually mostly worked satisfactorily for 330 years.
The next question is what replaces it. Both Johnson and Corbyn display alarming Messiah-like complexes comparable to nutters like Trump, Netanyahu, Chavez, Putin and Modi, although neither of them have even remotely the ability of even the thickest of those. Neither are fit for any sort of public office. Corbyn was out of his depth as a Housing Asssociation officer, FFS. But we're lumbered with them, so we have no escape.
I think to be honest that in a changing media age where many people live in their social media bubble it becomes increasingly difficult to have meaningful debate. Obviously I’m a diehard remainer lib dem who believes my children’s future is in Europe but the public are not, on the whole engaged. I think it is oillyt ? That said it’s time to lance the boil, leave no deal and then try living on wto terms and see how it pans out so that at least we can move forward. It’s either that or revoke A50 and take the country forward one way or the other.
I thought nothing would persuade me to vote for Corbyn but that was pre Johnson. The sight of Rees Mogg going to see the Queen to prorogue parliament was the last straw The best chance of ridding ourselves of this clique is to vote Corbyn (except in certain constituencies). He's bloody awful but at least he has principles and he's removable.
I suspect Boris was told that the Queen would veto any prorogation that covered 31st October or began before Parliament could pass a VONC, and the dates we have ended up with are a compromise
"lead to understand" surely, and "might" not would.
HMQ's day has been much as any other - accommodating reasonable requests from her subjects and advisers.
I'm sure she'll listen to Corbyn, Swinson, and whoever else she can't avoid meeting and not interfere.
Corbyn's tea might not be the best the Palace has ever made mind you. (The kitchens were too busy)
Why should she be inimical to Corbyn, who has done nothing to threaten the Union, unlike one of her earlier visitors?
Corbyn, the avowed supporter of the IRA, has done nothing to threaten the Union?!!!
I know Johnson may have lost his marbles (if he ever had any) but can we please keep a sense of proportion here?
There's no threat to the Union bigger than No Deal Brexit.
I suspect Boris was told that the Queen would veto any prorogation that covered 31st October or began before Parliament could pass a VONC, and the dates we have ended up with are a compromise
"lead to understand" surely, and "might" not would.
HMQ's day has been much as any other - accommodating reasonable requests from her subjects and advisers.
I'm sure she'll listen to Corbyn, Swinson, and whoever else she can't avoid meeting and not interfere.
Corbyn's tea might not be the best the Palace has ever made mind you. (The kitchens were too busy)
Why should she be inimical to Corbyn, who has done nothing to threaten the Union, unlike one of her earlier visitors?
Corbyn, the avowed supporter of the IRA, has done nothing to threaten the Union?!!!
I know Johnson may have lost his marbles (if he ever had any) but can we please keep a sense of proportion here?
If we leave with No Deal, the ERG will think they have played it perfectly. What will the MPs who voted Remain in 2016, pledged to respect the leave victory in their 2017 GE campaigns, then voted three times against Theresa May’s agreement with the EU thereafter console themselves with?
Easy. Brexits not for ever. At some point probably soon we will be right back in again as overwhelmingly voted for by the electorate at series of GE. This whole damn waste of precious time and money merely to send the gammon generation off to their graves happy.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
Not much use then, given they will lose 30-40 seats to the Lib Dems as well.
Actually on the latest YouGov the LDs would only win 13 Tory seats
I thought nothing would persuade me to vote for Corbyn but that was pre Johnson. The sight of Rees Mogg going to see the Queen to prorogue parliament was the last straw The best chance of ridding ourselves of this clique is to vote Corbyn (except in certain constituencies). He's bloody awful but at least he has principles and he's removable.
'Slow, steady and responsible' is certainly not how you would describe Tory leaders like Salisbury or Churchill or Thatcher, when the country has needed radical action and a tough leader who will take on establishment thinking the Tories have delivered it
I would argue both Asquith and Attlee were radicals who challenged establishment thinking as was Wilson in the social field who challenged traditional views on abortion, homosexuality and the abolition of capital punishment.
And Churchill was not Tory party leader when he took his most radical action - refusing peace talks with Germany in summer 1940.
AIUI had Chamberlain or Halifax started peace talks with the Germans many at least of the then Tory MP’s would have backed them. Possibly, given the support of the Communists and one or two of the Labour members, enough.
I suspect Boris was told that the Queen would veto any prorogation that covered 31st October or began before Parliament could pass a VONC, and the dates we have ended up with are a compromise
"lead to understand" surely, and "might" not would.
HMQ's day has been much as any other - accommodating reasonable requests from her subjects and advisers.
I'm sure she'll listen to Corbyn, Swinson, and whoever else she can't avoid meeting and not interfere.
Corbyn's tea might not be the best the Palace has ever made mind you. (The kitchens were too busy)
Why should she be inimical to Corbyn, who has done nothing to threaten the Union, unlike one of her earlier visitors?
Corbyn, the avowed supporter of the IRA, has done nothing to threaten the Union?!!!
I know Johnson may have lost his marbles (if he ever had any) but can we please keep a sense of proportion here?
There's no threat to the Union bigger than No Deal Brexit.
Boris’s Conservative and Brexit party bringing united Ireland closer than IRA and Corbyn could ever manage too.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
Not much use then, given they will lose 30-40 seats to the Lib Dems as well.
Actually on the latest YouGov the LDs would only win 13 Tory seats
So the Tories can win 30 seats but look likely to lose at least 19 of them.
Just to stand back for 30 seconds. What have today’s events done to embed Brexit as something that the country can unite around?
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
One of the most exasperating things about Brexit is how it has totally shredded the party system, and by extension our democratic system, which while not perfect had actually mostly worked satisfactorily for 330 years.
The next question is what replaces it. Both Johnson and Corbyn display alarming Messiah-like complexes comparable to nutters like Trump, Netanyahu, Chavez, Putin and Modi, although neither of them have even remotely the ability of even the thickest of those. Neither are fit for any sort of public office. Corbyn was out of his depth as a Housing Asssociation officer, FFS. But we're lumbered with them, so we have no escape.
As an example, I work a 40 hour week as do many people, How would I find the time to be a local Councillor? County Councillors are nearly always either retired men or women or people with very understanding employers. The notion of talking time from work to serve on a council is just not recognised.
"Money Talks" - political parties are businesses - campaigning costs money and while parties could and do make use of volunteers, the kind of continuous campaigning (Internet ads and the like) need to be funded. I suppose we could set a limit on outside election expenditure just as there are limits on spending within elections.
I thought nothing would persuade me to vote for Corbyn but that was pre Johnson. The sight of Rees Mogg going to see the Queen to prorogue parliament was the last straw The best chance of ridding ourselves of this clique is to vote Corbyn (except in certain constituencies). He's bloody awful but at least he has principles and he's removable.
Yes - Jew hating principles.
I can't see how anyone who gives a damn about British Jews could vote Corbyn.
'Slow, steady and responsible' is certainly not how you would describe Tory leaders like Salisbury or Churchill or Thatcher, when the country has needed radical action and a tough leader who will take on establishment thinking the Tories have delivered it
I would argue both Asquith and Attlee were radicals who challenged establishment thinking as was Wilson in the social field who challenged traditional views on abortion, homosexuality and the abolition of capital punishment.
i thought that was rather Roy Jenkins, as Home Secretary.
Just to stand back for 30 seconds. What have today’s events done to embed Brexit as something that the country can unite around?
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
Just to stand back for 30 seconds. What have today’s events done to embed Brexit as something that the country can unite around?
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
On the one hand half the public will never accept Brexit. On the other hand I can't see the EU ever having us back. It's a shitshow all round.
If we leave with No Deal, the ERG will think they have played it perfectly. What will the MPs who voted Remain in 2016, pledged to respect the leave victory in their 2017 GE campaigns, then voted three times against Theresa May’s agreement with the EU thereafter console themselves with?
Easy. Brexits not for ever. At some point probably soon we will be right back in again as overwhelmingly voted for by the electorate at series of GE. This whole damn waste of precious time and money merely to send the gammon generation off to their graves happy.
Nah - the fall-out from Brexit will last generations, whichever way it pans out. May's deal was probably the least impactful but that seems lost now.
Just to stand back for 30 seconds. What have today’s events done to embed Brexit as something that the country can unite around?
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
Only in the eyes of just under half of the country
'Slow, steady and responsible' is certainly not how you would describe Tory leaders like Salisbury or Churchill or Thatcher, when the country has needed radical action and a tough leader who will take on establishment thinking the Tories have delivered it
I would argue both Asquith and Attlee were radicals who challenged establishment thinking as was Wilson in the social field who challenged traditional views on abortion, homosexuality and the abolition of capital punishment.
And Churchill was not Tory party leader when he took his most radical action - refusing peace talks with Germany in summer 1940.
AIUI had Chamberlain or Halifax started peace talks with the Germans many at least of the then Tory MP’s would have backed them. Possibly, given the support of the Communists and one or two of the Labour members, enough.
If Halifax had resigned over Churchill's refusal to talk, the likelihood is Churchill's government would have collapsed. But goodness only knows who or what would have replaced it under those circumstances. Anderson, perhaps, with a mandate for negotiations. Or a General Election - but how would you hold one? But in the end Halifax did not resign, although to prevent any repeat performance he was removed at the earliest possible moment seven months later.
I thought nothing would persuade me to vote for Corbyn but that was pre Johnson. The sight of Rees Mogg going to see the Queen to prorogue parliament was the last straw The best chance of ridding ourselves of this clique is to vote Corbyn (except in certain constituencies). He's bloody awful but at least he has principles and he's removable.
I’m with @ydoethur on this - they are both beyond the pale.
Just to stand back for 30 seconds. What have today’s events done to embed Brexit as something that the country can unite around?
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
On the one hand half the public will never accept Brexit. On the other hand I can't see the EU ever having us back. It's a shitshow all round.
The EU will always be blinded by the monies and opportunities our membership will bring. They would probably prefer we had a more strong and stable democracy though.
Just to stand back for 30 seconds. What have today’s events done to embed Brexit as something that the country can unite around?
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
Only in the eyes of just under half of the country
Just to stand back for 30 seconds. What have today’s events done to embed Brexit as something that the country can unite around?
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
Only in the eyes of just under half of the country
Just to stand back for 30 seconds. What have today’s events done to embed Brexit as something that the country can unite around?
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
Only in the eyes of just under half of the country
Probably not 'just under half' now, given mortality rates.
Just to stand back for 30 seconds. What have today’s events done to embed Brexit as something that the country can unite around?
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
Only in the eyes of just under half of the country
The YouGov snap poll did suggest a sizeable chunk of Leave voters were not happy with today's shenanigans. That isn't conclusive in itself, but it kind of makes sense. Not all Leavers are indifferent to the ideal of Parliamentary Democracy.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
Not much use then, given they will lose 30-40 seats to the Lib Dems as well.
Actually on the latest YouGov the LDs would only win 13 Tory seats
So the Tories can win 30 seats but look likely to lose at least 19 of them.
So given the Tories only need a net gain of 8 for a majority a net Tory gain of 11 as above would be more than enough for Boris
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
Really - which ones?
On the latest YouGov the Tories would gain 36 Labour mainly Leave seats from Kensington, Dudley North and Newcastle Under Lyme to Darlington, Weaver Vale and Rother Valley
I suspect Boris was told that the Queen would veto any prorogation that covered 31st October or began before Parliament could pass a VONC, and the dates we have ended up with are a compromise
"lead to understand" surely, and "might" not would.
HMQ's day has been much as any other - accommodating reasonable requests from her subjects and advisers.
I'm sure she'll listen to Corbyn, Swinson, and whoever else she can't avoid meeting and not interfere.
Corbyn's tea might not be the best the Palace has ever made mind you. (The kitchens were too busy)
Why should she be inimical to Corbyn, who has done nothing to threaten the Union, unlike one of her earlier visitors?
Corbyn, the avowed supporter of the IRA, has done nothing to threaten the Union?!!!
I know Johnson may have lost his marbles (if he ever had any) but can we please keep a sense of proportion here?
There's no threat to the Union bigger than No Deal Brexit.
Even now only 46% of Scots including Don't Knows back independence even on the latest Ashcroft poll.
Plus Unionists in Northern Ireland strongly oppose the backstop and Boris has promised to keep an open border regardless
Just to stand back for 30 seconds. What have today’s events done to embed Brexit as something that the country can unite around?
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
Only in the eyes of just under half of the country
The YouGov snap poll did suggest a sizeable chunk of Leave voters were not happy with today's shenanigans. That isn't conclusive in itself, but it kind of makes sense. Not all Leavers are indifferent to the ideal of Parliamentary Democracy.
I’d be prepared to bet that today’s YouGov oversampled political nerds
I thought nothing would persuade me to vote for Corbyn but that was pre Johnson. The sight of Rees Mogg going to see the Queen to prorogue parliament was the last straw The best chance of ridding ourselves of this clique is to vote Corbyn (except in certain constituencies). He's bloody awful but at least he has principles and he's removable.
I’m with @ydoethur on this - they are both beyond the pale.
The point is Corbyn has no principles either. He proved that over welfare cuts. He's Johnson with a beard.
There is no sense in voting against someone by voting for someone just as bad, if not worse. I will be making a positive choice to vote for someone in November and that won't be either Blue or Red. I may not be successful in giving my choice the seat, but better that than to continue this populist disaster with different haircuts.
Just to stand back for 30 seconds. What have today’s events done to embed Brexit as something that the country can unite around?
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
Only in the eyes of just under half of the country
Half the country are not in favour of either no deal, or stuffing Parliament in this manner; a small majority of leave voters are.
Whereas the great majority of those who voted remain find both those things unacceptable.
I suspect Boris was told that the Queen would veto any prorogation that covered 31st October or began before Parliament could pass a VONC, and the dates we have ended up with are a compromise
"lead to understand" surely, and "might" not would.
HMQ's day has been much as any other - accommodating reasonable requests from her subjects and advisers.
I'm sure she'll listen to Corbyn, Swinson, and whoever else she can't avoid meeting and not interfere.
Corbyn's tea might not be the best the Palace has ever made mind you. (The kitchens were too busy)
Why should she be inimical to Corbyn, who has done nothing to threaten the Union, unlike one of her earlier visitors?
Corbyn, the avowed supporter of the IRA, has done nothing to threaten the Union?!!!
I know Johnson may have lost his marbles (if he ever had any) but can we please keep a sense of proportion here?
There's no threat to the Union bigger than No Deal Brexit.
Even now only 46% of Scots including Don't Knows back independence even on the latest Ashcroft poll.
Who would you say was the most effective defender of the union in Scottish politics, HYUFD?
I thought nothing would persuade me to vote for Corbyn but that was pre Johnson. The sight of Rees Mogg going to see the Queen to prorogue parliament was the last straw The best chance of ridding ourselves of this clique is to vote Corbyn (except in certain constituencies). He's bloody awful but at least he has principles and he's removable.
I’m with @ydoethur on this - they are both beyond the pale.
The point is Corbyn has no principles either. He proved that over welfare cuts. He's Johnson with a beard.
There is no sense in voting against someone by voting for someone just as bad, if not worse. I will be making a positive choice to vote for someone in November and that won't be either Blue or Red. I may not be successful in giving my choice the seat, but better that than to continue this populist disaster with different haircuts.
As an example, I work a 40 hour week as do many people, How would I find the time to be a local Councillor? County Councillors are nearly always either retired men or women or people with very understanding employers. The notion of talking time from work to serve on a council is just not recognised.
I have a couple of jobs in addition to being on the Council executive, and my daytime employer does give me a few hours a week for council meetings which I make up at other times. The LibDem deputy leader has a full-time job too, as does the Green leaader. So it can be done, if it's your main hobby. But all the other Exec members are retired, and mostly sprightly people in their 70s. The problem is that we can't really ask the Council officers to keep coming to evening meetings.
Comments
Once the Leader has declared the story of the day/week/whatever, that becomes the new truth.
And OGH posts, don’t worry, leaving it all in safe hands of Screaming.
Looking back over twelve hours, any regrets?
I always voted at my party's call,
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all.
And do not equate to “17.4 million”.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/poll-support-for-ukip-hits-record-high/
Not that I expect any change.
Indeed, I think Thatcher abolished the GLC because she objected to its policies, she also imposed rate capping and other draconian measures because she disagreed with the democratically elected individuals who occupied power in local authorities. The Tories have been the enemy of representative democracy in the recent past and have a history of manipulating the state to get the outcome the leadership of the time wished to implement.
More seriously, I think he's now out of further options. They only other things he can realistically do are either try to pass a bill to Revoke, in which case Labour Leavers go apeshit, or pass the deal, in which case the much larger number of Labour Remainers go apeshit, or pass control of the fight to Swinson, or resign.
All those options are unpalatable. VONC and heroic defeat it has to be.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/28/isnt-constitutional-outragewhingeing-remainers-need-grow/
http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/conservative
This is like a soap opera on the TV, it is not like the sort of politics one is a part of.
HMQ's day has been much as any other - accommodating reasonable requests from her subjects and advisers.
I'm sure she'll listen to Corbyn, Swinson, and whoever else she can't avoid meeting and not interfere.
Corbyn's tea might not be the best the Palace has ever made mind you. (The kitchens were too busy)
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/ruth-davidsons-true-enemies-have-always-been-her-own-party/
https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1166783890503143426?s=20
https://twitter.com/AmberRuddHR/status/1166765482101358592
If they’ve a brain and cerebellum, too,
They’ve got to leave that brain outside, And vote just as their leaders tell ’em to.
But then the prospect of a lot
Of dull M. P.’s in close proximity,
All thinking for themselves, is what No man can face with equanimity....
One casualty of today’s hyperbole has been the monarchy. Events, dear boy, events have put the queen right in the middle of it, have they not? Constitutionally the Queen is free to decide whether or not to go along with the government’s plans or support the sovereign parliament. The convention though is the Queen does what she’s told by the PM, and his lap mogg. But in normal times the PM has the full support of a majority in the Commons. So Its difficult spot for the queen, is this But whose fault is that, Johnsons or Corbyn’s? I would lay the blame at door of Corbyns letter, yet more evidence the man and those around him are mendacious fools. That letter should have been jointly signed by all opposition leaders in parliament, if it was a good idea. But even then that letter spotlights the impotence of the Queen and the role of the monarch’s powers. So only an anti monarchist could think that letter a good idea.
I do feel rather strongly about this!
One of the most exasperating things about Brexit is how it has totally shredded the party system, and by extension our democratic system, which while not perfect had actually mostly worked satisfactorily for 330 years.
The next question is what replaces it. Both Johnson and Corbyn display alarming Messiah-like complexes comparable to nutters like Trump, Netanyahu, Chavez, Putin and Modi, although neither of them have even remotely the ability of even the thickest of those. Neither are fit for any sort of public office. Corbyn was out of his depth as a Housing Asssociation officer, FFS. But we're lumbered with them, so we have no escape.
In any case the Brexit Party got 26% with YouGov and Opinium in May and June and were first, higher even than UKIP got in that poll with the Tories 4th on just 17%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
The Queen is obviously just advised by the PM.
A joint letter may have been a little more problematic, but it'd be the same response. She doesn't interfere..
Welcome to pb by the way egg.
'Parliament will consider this for a debate' apparently...
...if it is ever in session.
I know Johnson may have lost his marbles (if he ever had any) but can we please keep a sense of proportion here?
This whole damn waste of precious time and money merely to send the gammon generation off to their graves happy.
In the long term this looks like a strategic disaster for Leave. It ensures, if it were not already sure, that Brexit will never be embedded. It will become part of the country’s folk myth that Leavers are the enemies of Parliamentary democracy.
"Money Talks" - political parties are businesses - campaigning costs money and while parties could and do make use of volunteers, the kind of continuous campaigning (Internet ads and the like) need to be funded. I suppose we could set a limit on outside election expenditure just as there are limits on spending within elections.
That Digne is good at free kicks isn't he?
Even now only 46% of Scots including Don't Knows back independence even on the latest Ashcroft poll.
Plus Unionists in Northern Ireland strongly oppose the backstop and Boris has promised to keep an open border regardless
There is no sense in voting against someone by voting for someone just as bad, if not worse. I will be making a positive choice to vote for someone in November and that won't be either Blue or Red. I may not be successful in giving my choice the seat, but better that than to continue this populist disaster with different haircuts.
Whereas the great majority of those who voted remain find both those things unacceptable.