While it is far easier to sidestep such issues as a local councillor I am still a little surprised the past year or so have not seen a great many more defections from the big two to various sides in local government, where defections are in any case not uncommon
My Father took me to my first game of football and it was Bolton v Blackpool. It was in the early 1950's and my memory is one of a packed ground, all standing, and it is like a sepia print in my memory.
My Family on my Fathers side go back generations as Bolton folk and my grandfather has a painting hanging in Dean Church where he is burried
My parents may have been the only people in history to retire from south-east England to Bolton. They initially lived on Wigan Road not far from Deane Church and then after my mother passed my father moved to Morris Green, again not so very far away.
For me that is a step too far by Boris and I hope the HOC can succeed in a vonc and install Ken Clarke as interim PM
It will probably come to an election. Boris needs to be defeated. Who will you vote for?
I will be voting LibDem. The Conservative Party that I was a member and activist for the best part of 20 years is dead. It is now CINO.
Join the club, much of my family voted Tory for decades. That has now gone! We are voting LD...
The LDs need to look at how they can become the broad church that the Conservatives used to be
Get a lot of members. 2/3 of the current membership joined since 2015 so the beardy lefties are an endangered minority.
I could be tempted
I will just be a voter for the time being. I still have friends in the Conservative Party
A good friend of mine who's a natural Tory has vowed never to vote for them again over Brexit. He has a building company. He views the current lot as insane for wrecking business.
There is always the danger that we talk to the like-minded, but I know of many more who feel the same.
Indeed, but this guy is not from my natural millieu. He's a proper old school blue collar self made man Tory. No effete Oxbridge type like me.
For me that is a step too far by Boris and I hope the HOC can succeed in a vonc and install Ken Clarke as interim PM
It will probably come to an election. Boris needs to be defeated. Who will you vote for?
I will be voting LibDem. The Conservative Party that I was a member and activist for the best part of 20 years is dead. It is now CINO.
Join the club, much of my family voted Tory for decades. That has now gone! We are voting LD...
The LDs need to look at how they can become the broad church that the Conservatives used to be
Get a lot of members. 2/3 of the current membership joined since 2015 so the beardy lefties are an endangered minority.
I could be tempted
I will just be a voter for the time being. I still have friends in the Conservative Party
My resignation letter has been written but not sent yet. However, today has unnerved me and especially Ruth who I greatly admired. If my resignation goes in which is looking increasingly likely I will not join another party but would support the Lib Dem's as long as by supporting them I do not put a Corbynista in
My Father took me to my first game of football and it was Bolton v Blackpool. It was in the early 1950's and my memory is one of a packed ground, all standing, and it is like a sepia print in my memory.
My Family on my Fathers side go back generations as Bolton folk and my grandfather has a painting hanging in Dean Church where he is burried
I didn't realise you were a Bowtoner. My first game was Wanderers v Stoke. The first ever Sunday FA Cup game, which was handy, as my Dad was on 6-day a week call at the paint factory.
Indeed my Fathers side all came from Bolton going back to the late 1600's according to my daughters ancestry investigations.
It is my Mothers side with the Welsh connection
And so many worked in the mills but remarkably they were virtually all conservatives
The working class Tory was never that uncommon. My grandparents on my mothers side were both lifelong members, despite never having a farthing.
For me that is a step too far by Boris and I hope the HOC can succeed in a vonc and install Ken Clarke as interim PM
It will probably come to an election. Boris needs to be defeated. Who will you vote for?
I will be voting LibDem. The Conservative Party that I was a member and activist for the best part of 20 years is dead. It is now CINO.
Join the club, much of my family voted Tory for decades. That has now gone! We are voting LD...
The LDs need to look at how they can become the broad church that the Conservatives used to be
Get a lot of members. 2/3 of the current membership joined since 2015 so the beardy lefties are an endangered minority.
I could be tempted
I will just be a voter for the time being. I still have friends in the Conservative Party
My resignation letter has been written but not sent yet. However, today has unnerved me and especially Ruth who I greatly admired. If my resignation goes in which is looking increasingly likely I will not join another party but would support the Lib Dem's as long as by supporting them I do not put a Corbynista in
Ugly though this is, I think its just forcing the issue. One way or another. It looks like some sort of awful anti-democratic step, but I don't, on reflection, think it is.
I do also think that there's some 'smoke' in this. They're giving Corbyn some cover so he can avoid the issue.
Much of the noise can be disregarded - it is just opportunist noise.
Personally I'm fully on board with today's steps, although this whole process has given be long periods of disquiet. I also completely disapprove of this sort of chicanery, and also have some degree of admiration as to the political bravery demonstrated.
Do erstwhile Labour voters in England and Wales who backed Leave see a PM who is finally going to deliver the Brexit they crave or an entitled Tory toff riding roughshod over democracy to get the Brexit he craves? The next general election probably hinges on the answer to that question.
I suspect they believe he is anti-elitist and the rest of the MPs are just feathering their own nest. The next election will be fought on Boris the outsider territory.
I am shocked at how comfortable Tory PBers are with tbis course of action. They would be up in arms if Blair had done this last decade.
Yes, remember all the outrage over 28 day detentions?
I think the Queen will be very happy that her new PM Johnson has changed the news headlines today. There will be toasting his success at Balmoral.. So can the PB community join in . Three cheers , hip hip hooray.
Get a lot of members. 2/3 of the current membership joined since 2015 so the beardy lefties are an endangered minority.
It is astonishing how much the party has changed. The Party I joined died in the fires of the Coalition - there is a new LD Party now. Those Conservatives who think it's simply Paddy Ashdown's party reborn are as mistaken in that belief as they are in thinking anyone has any interest in Boris's reheated Thatcherism.
As are the superannuated lefties who habituate LDV.
I guess a party, in the end, like a company, is only a reflection of the leadership and the prevailing majority view within that party. The Conservatives are no longer Conservative, so natural One Nation Conservatives may well set up camp in the LDs. I can live with being in the company of a few beardy wierdy lefty libs if they are essentially decent and honest.
Is it really plausible that leaving with no-deal could occur during an election campaign? Surely the disruption just before polling day would count against the government?
That all depends on who called for the election. If Johnson is VONC'd, but no alternative interim PM can be found, that's not his fault, is it?
In that situation he'd still be PM, and the EU would obviously grant an extension for the duration of the campaign if he asked for one, so yes, if he chose not to ask for one then it would absolutely be his fault.
If you'd asked before all this brexit heat was added to the issue everyone would have said that it was obviously his *job* to ask for an extension in these circumstances. Once you're in an election campaign the PM is supposed to just keep things ticking over and avoid controversial changes that could be decided by the next government. I guess at this point someone will say that the letter of the current legislation calls for an exit so extending that is the change, but nobody looking at this thing neutrally would read it that way.
"Ooh, look at me! I posted this on the last thread, and I'm so pleased with myself I had to post it on twatter!"
Brexit has sent TSE utterly insane. It is quite amusing really to see someone who used to be regarded as an informed pundit being reduced to such drivel.
Uber Remainers are a bit mental I think. Even more mental than Francois and co.
I don't know a single real person who actually gives a fuck about Brexit.
Most people I know hate Brexit. I think they are real people, but perhaps they are some kind of holographic projection or I am living in the Matrix.
"Ooh, look at me! I posted this on the last thread, and I'm so pleased with myself I had to post it on twatter!"
Brexit has sent TSE utterly insane. It is quite amusing really to see someone who used to be regarded as an informed pundit being reduced to such drivel.
Uber Remainers are a bit mental I think. Even more mental than Francois and co.
I don't know a single real person who actually gives a fuck about Brexit.
Most people I know hate Brexit. I think they are real people, but perhaps they are some kind of holographic projection or I am living in the Matrix.
What exactly do the anti proroguers propose to do with the extra 5 days of parliament time they would be getting? Constitutional games to impose their will on the executive perhaps? A series of votes on different Brexits they all agree they wont agree on? Ultimately the country has to move on, we have to set domestic agenda etc etc. How many can kicks before the cost of delaying Brexit exceeds any potential downturn on no deal? The naval gazing is absurd, and as sneaky and distasteful Boris trickery today is, the inability of parliament to deliver on the referendum result cannot go on indefinitely, and the hijacking of the airwaves with swivel eyed nonsense about coup d'etats etc is frankly bizarre! Dictators dont normally reopen parliament or confirm there will be time to debate and vote on what they are supposedly avoiding. MPs have had ample opportunity to get their ducks in a row, they chose to play for party advantages etc instead. Tough.
"Ooh, look at me! I posted this on the last thread, and I'm so pleased with myself I had to post it on twatter!"
Brexit has sent TSE utterly insane. It is quite amusing really to see someone who used to be regarded as an informed pundit being reduced to such drivel.
Uber Remainers are a bit mental I think. Even more mental than Francois and co.
I don't know a single real person who actually gives a fuck about Brexit.
Most people I know hate Brexit. I think they are real people, but perhaps they are some kind of holographic projection or I am living in the Matrix.
Do erstwhile Labour voters in England and Wales who backed Leave see a PM who is finally going to deliver the Brexit they crave or an entitled Tory toff riding roughshod over democracy to get the Brexit he craves? The next general election probably hinges on the answer to that question.
I suspect they believe he is anti-elitist and the rest of the MPs are just feathering their own nest. The next election will be fought on Boris the outsider territory.
I am shocked at how comfortable Tory PBers are with tbis course of action. They would be up in arms if Blair had done this last decade.
Yes, remember all the outrage over 28 day detentions?
What exactly do the anti proroguers propose to do with the extra 5 days of parliament time they would be getting? Constitutional games to impose their will on the executive perhaps? A series of votes on different Brexits they all agree they wont agree on? Ultimately the country has to move on, we have to set domestic agenda etc etc. How many can kicks before the cost of delaying Brexit exceeds any potential downturn on no deal? The naval gazing is absurd, and as sneaky and distasteful Boris trickery today is, the inability of parliament to deliver on the referendum result cannot go on indefinitely, and the hijacking of the airwaves with swivel eyed nonsense about coup d'etats etc is frankly bizarre! Dictators dont normally reopen parliament or confirm there will be time to debate and vote on what they are supposedly avoiding. MPs have had ample opportunity to get their ducks in a row, they chose to play for party advantages etc instead. Tough.
And this is as someone who regrets voting leave. I regret more the shower of shit we have in westminister
"Ooh, look at me! I posted this on the last thread, and I'm so pleased with myself I had to post it on twatter!"
Brexit has sent TSE utterly insane. It is quite amusing really to see someone who used to be regarded as an informed pundit being reduced to such drivel.
Uber Remainers are a bit mental I think. Even more mental than Francois and co.
I don't know a single real person who actually gives a fuck about Brexit.
Most people I know hate Brexit. I think they are real people, but perhaps they are some kind of holographic projection or I am living in the Matrix.
You just don't know anything like enough people......
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
+1 The Tories are nothing without sensible economics and sensible government. I never thought the UK could follow in the footsteps of states that victimise and marginalise elected officials but the last few years have seen a sorry decline in discourse that has culminated in the marginalisation of Parliament...
Do erstwhile Labour voters in England and Wales who backed Leave see a PM who is finally going to deliver the Brexit they crave or an entitled Tory toff riding roughshod over democracy to get the Brexit he craves? The next general election probably hinges on the answer to that question.
I suspect they believe he is anti-elitist and the rest of the MPs are just feathering their own nest. The next election will be fought on Boris the outsider territory.
I am shocked at how comfortable Tory PBers are with tbis course of action. They would be up in arms if Blair had done this last decade.
Yes, remember all the outrage over 28 day detentions?
Do erstwhile Labour voters in England and Wales who backed Leave see a PM who is finally going to deliver the Brexit they crave or an entitled Tory toff riding roughshod over democracy to get the Brexit he craves? The next general election probably hinges on the answer to that question.
I suspect they believe he is anti-elitist and the rest of the MPs are just feathering their own nest. The next election will be fought on Boris the outsider territory.
I am shocked at how comfortable Tory PBers are with tbis course of action. They would be up in arms if Blair had done this last decade.
Yes, remember all the outrage over 28 day detentions?
I do. Didn't a senior Tory feel the need to call a vanity by-election?
What exactly do the anti proroguers propose to do with the extra 5 days of parliament time they would be getting? Constitutional games to impose their will on the executive perhaps? A series of votes on different Brexits they all agree they wont agree on? Ultimately the country has to move on, we have to set domestic agenda etc etc. How many can kicks before the cost of delaying Brexit exceeds any potential downturn on no deal? The naval gazing is absurd, and as sneaky and distasteful Boris trickery today is, the inability of parliament to deliver on the referendum result cannot go on indefinitely, and the hijacking of the airwaves with swivel eyed nonsense about coup d'etats etc is frankly bizarre! Dictators dont normally reopen parliament or confirm there will be time to debate and vote on what they are supposedly avoiding. MPs have had ample opportunity to get their ducks in a row, they chose to play for party advantages etc instead. Tough.
There is a fair point that the anti no deal crowd have themselves wasted plenty of time and would continue to have done so, and made use or planned to make use of arcane procedures and constitutional games, and indeed that constant can kicking to avoid facing up to harsh choices has not been of help to us as a country, and even indeed that some of the reaction has been overblown.
Nevertheless, given the motivation of Boris is clear in that he doesn't like Parliament trying to stymie him, given how it throws a wrench into supposed plans to get a deal through parliament and given that no matter how unreasonable parliament may be they are the ones meant to act on our behalf, and we can punish them when we don't like what they do, and given the possibility this is nothing but a gimmick so he can get a GE without being blamed for it, I see nothing untoward in calling out Boris as the most reasonable in this particular bit of game playing. And I say that as no fan of Corbyn, the Grievers, or those who cry about no deal while refusing to vote for a deal to stop it.
Well Columbus has had enough time in the spotlight. Has she said anything about the gravity of the situation? Time Newton and Einstein lost the limelight too.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
What exactly do the anti proroguers propose to do with the extra 5 days of parliament time they would be getting? Constitutional games to impose their will on the executive perhaps? A series of votes on different Brexits they all agree they wont agree on? Ultimately the country has to move on, we have to set domestic agenda etc etc. How many can kicks before the cost of delaying Brexit exceeds any potential downturn on no deal? The naval gazing is absurd, and as sneaky and distasteful Boris trickery today is, the inability of parliament to deliver on the referendum result cannot go on indefinitely, and the hijacking of the airwaves with swivel eyed nonsense about coup d'etats etc is frankly bizarre! Dictators dont normally reopen parliament or confirm there will be time to debate and vote on what they are supposedly avoiding. MPs have had ample opportunity to get their ducks in a row, they chose to play for party advantages etc instead. Tough.
There is a fair point that the anti no deal crowd have themselves wasted plenty of time and would continue to have done so, and made use or planned to make use of arcane procedures and constitutional games, and indeed that constant can kicking to avoid facing up to harsh choices has not been of help to us as a country, and even indeed that some of the reaction has been overblown.
Nevertheless, given the motivation of Boris is clear in that he doesn't like Parliament trying to stymie him, given how it throws a wrench into supposed plans to get a deal through parliament and given that no matter how unreasonable parliament may be they are the ones meant to act on our behalf, and we can punish them when we don't like what they do, and given the possibility this is nothing but a gimmick so he can get a GE without being blamed for it, I see nothing untoward in calling out Boris as the most reasonable in this particular bit of game playing. And I say that as no fan of Corbyn, the Grievers, or those who cry about no deal while refusing to vote for a deal to stop it.
Well quite, but the opposition of all stripes are just screaming and seeing who can come up with the most ridiculous hyperbole. In other words gaming this for party political advantage. Like everything else. No sensible arguments, just weird crap about undemocratic outrages. When the actual process is laid out, a lot of the end of the worlders on Twitter will feel a little foolish I think.
For me that is a step too far by Boris and I hope the HOC can succeed in a vonc and install Ken Clarke as interim PM
It will probably come to an election. Boris needs to be defeated. Who will you vote for?
I will be voting LibDem. The Conservative Party that I was a member and activist for the best part of 20 years is dead. It is now CINO.
Join the club, much of my family voted Tory for decades. That has now gone! We are voting LD...
The LDs need to look at how they can become the broad church that the Conservatives used to be
Get a lot of members. 2/3 of the current membership joined since 2015 so the beardy lefties are an endangered minority.
I could be tempted
I will just be a voter for the time being. I still have friends in the Conservative Party
My resignation letter has been written but not sent yet. However, today has unnerved me and especially Ruth who I greatly admired. If my resignation goes in which is looking increasingly likely I will not join another party but would support the Lib Dem's as long as by supporting them I do not put a Corbynista in
Ugly though this is, I think its just forcing the issue. One way or another. It looks like some sort of awful anti-democratic step, but I don't, on reflection, think it is.
I do also think that there's some 'smoke' in this. They're giving Corbyn some cover so he can avoid the issue.
Much of the noise can be disregarded - it is just opportunist noise.
Personally I'm fully on board with today's steps, although this whole process has given be long periods of disquiet. I also completely disapprove of this sort of chicanery, and also have some degree of admiration as to the political bravery demonstrated.
(There may be some self-contradictions here!)
You're 'fully on board with today's steps' and 'completely disapprove of this sort of chicanery'.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
To provoke the outrage from opponents. Then, he either gets a general election having been no confidenced or he can say that he enjoys the confidence of the house and they should shut the **** up.
Precisely. He wants a GE, and he wants to smoke out the die hard remainers so he can stand a slate of brexiteers or referendum honourers and be rid of Hammond, Grieve and co. All of whom know VONC equals end of their political careers
I am not so sure it ends their career, they could still stand as Parliamentary candidates under a different banner. I remember Martin Bell for instance in 1997, Labour, LDs and Greens could do this again...
Talking about Martin Bell, maybe he should stand against BJ!
They could but they'd lose. This unite to remain lark is all well and good until you start telling 40 or 50 or 100 constituency parties to stand down and shut up and cease to be a party standing nationwide. Plus the LD plus green vote in 80% of constituencies is bugger all
Not so sure about that. I remember 1997, the Tories under Johnson have chosen to go down that path of unpopularity and vitriol from voters . I voted Tory in 1997 but in the 'forthcoming' election I will be baying for political blood and many other people will do likewise. I would not want to be canvassing or delivering leaflets for Tories given the abuse they will encounter....
Most of the abuse I have encountered is from voters furious we are still in the EU despite the fact they voted Out
"Ooh, look at me! I posted this on the last thread, and I'm so pleased with myself I had to post it on twatter!"
Brexit has sent TSE utterly insane. It is quite amusing really to see someone who used to be regarded as an informed pundit being reduced to such drivel.
Uber Remainers are a bit mental I think. Even more mental than Francois and co.
I don't know a single real person who actually gives a fuck about Brexit.
Most people I know hate Brexit. I think they are real people, but perhaps they are some kind of holographic projection or I am living in the Matrix.
You just don't know anything like enough people......
Ruth Davidson's resignation is the least surprising event of a tumultuous month of politics. Brexit has utterly undermined her brand of unionism. Expect fireworks. She's not one to pull her punches and she is articulate.
There's no doubt if nothing else that Boris has enthused the Leave voting segment of the population once again. In the dying days of the May regime there was a kind of fatalism and indifference amongst supporters that endangered the whole project.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
You're missing the point. It's not about time. If it was, Parliament would have sat through the summer and cancelled the boring talking shops, ooops, conferences.
By ending the parliamentary session so abruptly he controls what bills go into the wash up process. And any that are not - just, to take a random example, all the bills proposed recently by Remainers - are instantly lost and would need reintroducing. Which there would not be time for in October.
It's cynical, it's legal, and it's absolutely brilliant in its Machiavellian nature. It's just disastrous for the country.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
My Father took me to my first game of football and it was Bolton v Blackpool. It was in the early 1950's and my memory is one of a packed ground, all standing, and it is like a sepia print in my memory.
My Family on my Fathers side go back generations as Bolton folk and my grandfather has a painting hanging in Dean Church where he is burried
I didn't realise you were a Bowtoner. My first game was Wanderers v Stoke. The first ever Sunday FA Cup game, which was handy, as my Dad was on 6-day a week call at the paint factory.
Indeed my Fathers side all came from Bolton going back to the late 1600's according to my daughters ancestry investigations.
It is my Mothers side with the Welsh connection
And so many worked in the mills but remarkably they were virtually all conservatives
Wasn’t it Disraeli who promoted the ‘Conservatives Club’ movement; cheap beer here, so long as you vote Conservative! ‘ Very popular in some working class areas, I believe.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
To provoke the outrage from opponents. Then, he either gets a general election having been no confidenced or he can say that he enjoys the confidence of the house and they should shut the **** up.
Precisely. He wants a GE, and he wants to smoke out the die hard remainers so he can stand a slate of brexiteers or referendum honourers and be rid of Hammond, Grieve and co. All of whom know VONC equals end of their political careers
I am not so sure it ends their career, they could still stand as Parliamentary candidates under a different banner. I remember Martin Bell for instance in 1997, Labour, LDs and Greens could do this again... Talking about Martin Bell, maybe he should stand against BJ!
They could but they'd lose. This unite to remain lark is all well and good until you start telling 40 or 50 or 100 constituency parties to stand down and shut up and cease to be a party standing nationwide. Plus the LD plus green vote in 80% of constituencies is bugger all
Not so sure about that. I remember 1997, the Tories under Johnson have chosen to go down that path of unpopularity and vitriol from voters . I voted Tory in 1997 but in the 'forthcoming' election I will be baying for political blood and many other people will do likewise. I would not want to be canvassing or delivering leaflets for Tories given the abuse they will encounter....
Most of the abuse I have encountered is from voters furious we are still in the EU despite the fact they voted Out
If at some point in the future a government committed to democratic principle comes to power, surely their first task will be to go about establishing a written constitution.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
To provoke the outrage from opponents. Then, he either gets a general election having been no confidenced or he can say that he enjoys the confidence of the house and they should shut the **** up.
Precisely. He wants a GE, and he wants to smoke out the die hard remainers so he can stand a slate of brexiteers or referendum honourers and be rid of Hammond, Grieve and co. All of whom know VONC equals end of their political careers
I am not so sure it ends their career, they could still stand as Parliamentary candidates under a different banner. I remember Martin Bell for instance in 1997, Labour, LDs and Greens could do this again...
Talking about Martin Bell, maybe he should stand against BJ!
They could but they'd lose. This unite to remain lark is all well and good until you start telling 40 or 50 or 100 constituency parties to stand down and shut up and cease to be a party standing nationwide. Plus the LD plus green vote in 80% of constituencies is bugger all
Not so sure about that. I remember 1997, the Tories under Johnson have chosen to go down that path of unpopularity and vitriol from voters . I voted Tory in 1997 but in the 'forthcoming' election I will be baying for political blood and many other people will do likewise. I would not want to be canvassing or delivering leaflets for Tories given the abuse they will encounter....
Most of the abuse I have encountered is from voters furious we are still in the EU despite the fact they voted Out
Perhaps those individuals are simply temperamentally more abusive?
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
To provoke the outrage from opponents. Then, he either gets a general election having been no confidenced or he can say that he enjoys the confidence of the house and they should shut the **** up.
Precisely. He wants a GE, and he wants to smoke out the die hard remainers so he can stand a slate of brexiteers or referendum honourers and be rid of Hammond, Grieve and co. All of whom know VONC equals end of their political careers
I am not so sure it ends their career, they could still stand as Parliamentary candidates under a different banner. I remember Martin Bell for instance in 1997, Labour, LDs and Greens could do this again...
Talking about Martin Bell, maybe he should stand against BJ!
They could but they'd lose. This unite to remain lark is all well and good until you start telling 40 or 50 or 100 constituency parties to stand down and shut up and cease to be a party standing nationwide. Plus the LD plus green vote in 80% of constituencies is bugger all
Not so sure about that. I remember 1997, the Tories under Johnson have chosen to go down that path of unpopularity and vitriol from voters . I voted Tory in 1997 but in the 'forthcoming' election I will be baying for political blood and many other people will do likewise. I would not want to be canvassing or delivering leaflets for Tories given the abuse they will encounter....
Most of the abuse I have encountered is from voters furious we are still in the EU despite the fact they voted Out
What is it they object to just out of interest? Is it the fact we have not left or an issue like Immigration. I am genuinely interested. Obliviously, I disagree with Brexit and as I have stated many times before those who voted for Brexit on the Immigration issue were misinformed as it will mean replacing one set of Immigrants with those from a different part of the planet!
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
The idea that Davidson's moderation was a stance that was losing votes for the Tories in Scotland is an eccentric one, and I suspect you'll learn by the end of the year that it's also fundamentally wrong.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
To provoke the outrage from opponents. Then, he either gets a general election having been no confidenced or he can say that he enjoys the confidence of the house and they should shut the **** up.
Precisely. He wants a GE, and he wants to smoke out the die hard remainers so he can stand a slate of brexiteers or referendum honourers and be rid of Hammond, Grieve and co. All of whom know VONC equals end of their political careers
I am not so sure it ends their career, they could still stand as Parliamentary candidates under a different banner. I remember Martin Bell for instance in 1997, Labour, LDs and Greens could do this again...
Talking about Martin Bell, maybe he should stand against BJ!
They could but they'd lose. This unite to remain lark is all well and good until you start telling 40 or 50 or 100 constituency parties to stand down and shut up and cease to be a party standing nationwide. Plus the LD plus green vote in 80% of constituencies is bugger all
Not so sure about that. I remember 1997, the Tories under Johnson have chosen to go down that path of unpopularity and vitriol from voters . I voted Tory in 1997 but in the 'forthcoming' election I will be baying for political blood and many other people will do likewise. I would not want to be canvassing or delivering leaflets for Tories given the abuse they will encounter....
Most of the abuse I have encountered is from voters furious we are still in the EU despite the fact they voted Out
What is it they object to just out of interest? Is it the fact we have not left or an issue like Immigration. I am genuinely interested. Obliviously, I disagree with Brexit and as I have stated many times before those who voted for Brexit on the Immigration issue were misinformed as it will mean replacing one set of Immigrants with those from a different part of the planet!
HYUFD lives in Essex, where blind fury is the default setting.
If at some point in the future a government committed to democratic principle comes to power, surely their first task will be to go about establishing a written constitution.
*holds breath*
Could someone in the PB community tell me when it's okay to inhale again? Thanks.
In terms of firing up your base, firing up your opponents, and making Britain look even dafter in eyes of the world, we’ll done Boris.
In terms of passing off five weeks suspension at this crucial time as normal, day after your opponents vowed to use parliamentary time to thwart you, it is the lamest of cover stories.
But in terms of avoiding scrutiny on just about everything, and avoiding your opponents stopping no deal, it doesn’t (but then you don’t really want it to do you Cummings). Because this still leaves plenty of parliamentary time to scrutinise Boris negotiated deal, and block no deal if necessary. It was always wise to wait till October to do that anyway, to avoid team Boris calling you a traitor and saboteur of his negotiation.
Lets not rule out this as clever, Trumpesque, base mobilising smoke screen. Nothing more. There’s only one action top of Boris to do list, whats the alternate plan for the backstop. The backstop is there to avoid a hard border across Ireland when UK and EU are operating different customs regimes. The hard border not only breaks treaties signed up to by the UK government, in practice it will become focal for protest, likely end up with British troops manning it. The previous PMs negotiation came up with this backstop, did not come up with an alternative even in face of mortal destruction. Boris governments official policy is not we don’t like the backstop so no backstop, the only honest policy or realistic negotiation is an alternative plan to be agreed with EU replacing proposed backstop, something Boris with customary oomph agreed to have settled in just 30 days last week, accepting it was up to Britain to provide a solution, and said he was "more than happy" with the "blistering timetable" Merkel had set out. So Boris, the EU heads of state and negotiators, the British people, the whole world is waiting to hear your plan for alternative backstop, your timetable is ticking down. If the opposition parties are smart they shouldn’t allow themselves to be distracted, this is the line they should keep the pressure up with. “why are you prevaricating day after day and chucking out Trumpesque chaff?” Where’s your backstop alternative?
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Indeed, nor does it explain they will make up the loss of most of their 13 Scottish MPs.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
I don't think Nigel Farage is going to disappear until he is put in a coffin. If it is not Brexit he is campaigning on, it will be immigration or law and order or something populist. He is a narcist and all the Brexit supporting media and the Tory party are doing is amplifying his message. I am amazed how some Tories go along with all this even though they may never have voted for Brexit or even support the positions the Tory party are taking on key policies....
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
To provoke the outrage from opponents. Then, he either gets a general election having been no confidenced or he can say that he enjoys the confidence of the house and they should shut the **** up.
Precisely. He wants a GE, and he wants to smoke out the die hard remainers so he can stand a slate of brexiteers or referendum honourers and be rid of Hammond, Grieve and co. All of whom know VONC equals end of their political careers
I am not so sure it ends their career, they could still stand as Parliamentary candidates under a different banner. I remember Martin Bell for instance in 1997, Labour, LDs and Greens could do this again...
Talking about Martin Bell, maybe he should stand against BJ!
They could but they'd lose. This unite to remain lark is all well and good until you start telling 40 or 50 or 100 constituency parties to stand down and shut up and cease to be a party standing nationwide. Plus the LD plus green vote in 80% of constituencies is bugger all
Not so sure about that. I remember 1997, the Tories under Johnson have chosen to go down that path of unpopularity and vitriol from voters . I voted Tory in 1997 but in the 'forthcoming' election I will be baying for political blood and many other people will do likewise. I would not want to be canvassing or delivering leaflets for Tories given the abuse they will encounter....
Most of the abuse I have encountered is from voters furious we are still in the EU despite the fact they voted Out
Perhaps those individuals are simply temperamentally more abusive?
The damned gammons whacked him with their Zimmer frames.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
In terms of firing up your base, firing up your opponents, and making Britain look even dafter in eyes of the world, we’ll done Boris.
In terms of passing off five weeks suspension at this crucial time as normal, day after your opponents vowed to use parliamentary time to thwart you, it is the lamest of cover stories.
But in terms of avoiding scrutiny on just about everything, and avoiding your opponents stopping no deal, it doesn’t (but then you don’t really want it to do you Cummings). Because this still leaves plenty of parliamentary time to scrutinise Boris negotiated deal, and block no deal if necessary. It was always wise to wait till October to do that anyway, to avoid team Boris calling you a traitor and saboteur of his negotiation.
Lets not rule out this as clever, Trumpesque, base mobilising smoke screen. Nothing more. There’s only one action top of Boris to do list, whats the alternate plan for the backstop. The backstop is there to avoid a hard border across Ireland when UK and EU are operating different customs regimes. The hard border not only breaks treaties signed up to by the UK government, in practice it will become focal for protest, likely end up with British troops manning it. The previous PMs negotiation came up with this backstop, did not come up with an alternative even in face of mortal destruction. Boris governments official policy is not we don’t like the backstop so no backstop, the only honest policy or realistic negotiation is an alternative plan to be agreed with EU replacing proposed backstop, something Boris with customary oomph agreed to have settled in just 30 days last week, accepting it was up to Britain to provide a solution, and said he was "more than happy" with the "blistering timetable" Merkel had set out. So Boris, the EU heads of state and negotiators, the British people, the whole world is waiting to hear your plan for alternative backstop, your timetable is ticking down. If the opposition parties are smart they shouldn’t allow themselves to be distracted, this is the line they should keep the pressure up with. “why are you prevaricating day after day and chucking out Trumpesque chaff?” Where’s your backstop alternative?
Welcome to PB Mr Egg.
Your point is a good one... where is that backstop alternative Boris?
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
So fewer voters oppose proroguing Parliament than even the 48% who voted Remain then and a majority of Tory and Leave voters back proroguing Parliament to enforce Brexit.
Under FPTP Boris can win on that as a last restort with a split Remainer vote, while still trying for a technical solution for the Irish border first
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
So fewer voters oppose proroguing Parliament than even the 48% who voted Remain then and a majority of Tory and Leave voters back proroguing Parliament to enforce Brexit.
Under FPTP Boris can win on that as a last restort with a split Remainer vote, while still trying for a technical solution for the Irish border first
It's good to know come rain, shine or constitutional warfare, HYUFD will still valiantly put a very unconvincing spin on opinion polls.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
Note, YouGov did not use the correct but perhaps leading word “suspend” in their question.
If Boris was suspending Parliament wholly in the run up to Brexit, many might say "No, I do not approve." If told he is suspending it for four more days than were planned, but there will still be opportunities to debate whatever deal comes out of the EU Summit, many might instead say "WTF is the big deal then?"
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Interesting that in the YouGov poll, the prorogue was opposed by voters in all regions. Highest opposition in London and Scotland, most support in the South.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
Note, YouGov did not use the correct but perhaps leading word “suspend” in their question.
If Boris was suspending Parliament wholly in the run up to Brexit, many might say "No, I do not approve." If told he is suspending it for four more days than were planned, but there will still be opportunities to debate whatever deal comes out of the EU Summit, many might instead say "WWTF is the big deal then?"
It's still 4 less days than was previously on the Parliamentary Calendar.
However it's not just 4 less days, it's 4 less days + another 4 days for the Queen's speech and only then can other business start to take effect.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Perhaps, but I always thought support for monarchy, the UK and stable finances was part of the Tory brand and apparently that is not true either.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
In terms of firing up your base, firing up your opponents, and making Britain look even dafter in eyes of the world, we’ll done Boris.
In terms of passing off five weeks suspension at this crucial time as normal, day after your opponents vowed to use parliamentary time to thwart you, it is the lamest of cover stories.
But in terms of avoiding scrutiny on just about everything, and avoiding your opponents stopping no deal, it doesn’t (but then you don’t really want it to do you Cummings). Because this still leaves plenty of parliamentary time to scrutinise Boris negotiated deal, and block no deal if necessary. It was always wise to wait till October to do that anyway, to avoid team Boris calling you a traitor and saboteur of his negotiation.
Lets not rule out this as clever, Trumpesque, base mobilising smoke screen. Nothing more. There’s only one action top of Boris to do list, whats the alternate plan for the backstop. The backstop is there to avoid a hard border across Ireland when UK and EU are operating different customs regimes. The hard border not only breaks treaties signed up to by the UK government, in practice it will become focal for protest, likely end up with British troops manning it. The previous PMs negotiation came up with this backstop, did not come up with an alternative even in face of mortal destruction. Boris governments official policy is not we don’t like the backstop so no backstop, the only honest policy or realistic negotiation is an alternative plan to be agreed with EU replacing proposed backstop, something Boris with customary oomph agreed to have settled in just 30 days last week, accepting it was up to Britain to provide a solution, and said he was "more than happy" with the "blistering timetable" Merkel had set out. So Boris, the EU heads of state and negotiators, the British people, the whole world is waiting to hear your plan for alternative backstop, your timetable is ticking down. If the opposition parties are smart they shouldn’t allow themselves to be distracted, this is the line they should keep the pressure up with. “why are you prevaricating day after day and chucking out Trumpesque chaff?” Where’s your backstop alternative?
Welcome to PB Mr Egg.
Your point is a good one... where is that backstop alternative Boris?
Where is that backstop alternative Boris?
Don’t let him get away with Trump style distractions.
Where is that backstop alternative Boris? Should be the only question in town.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Don't lie like your hero Boris.
I'm not a diehard remainer, I've said we should respect the vote to leave, as was campaigned, and Boris Johnson and his fellow bunch of campaigners said we would Leave with a deal.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
To provoke the outrage from opponents. Then, he either gets a general election having been no confidenced or he can say that he enjoys the confidence of the house and they should shut the **** up.
Precisely. He wants a GE, and he wants to smoke out the die hard remainers so he can stand a slate of brexiteers or referendum honourers and be rid of Hammond, Grieve and co. All of whom know VONC equals end of their political careers
I am not so sure it ends their career, they could still stand as Parliamentary candidates under a different banner. I remember Martin Bell for instance in 1997, Labour, LDs and Greens could do this again...
Talking about Martin Bell, maybe he should stand against BJ!
They could but they'd lose. This unite to remain lark is all well and good until you start telling 40 or 50 or 100 constituency parties to stand down and shut up and cease to be a party standing nationwide. Plus the LD plus green vote in 80% of constituencies is bugger all
Not so sure about that. I remember 1997, the Tories under Johnson have chosen to go down that path of unpopularity and vitriol from voters . I voted Tory in 1997 but in the 'forthcoming' election I will be baying for political blood and many other people will do likewise. I would not want to be canvassing or delivering leaflets for Tories given the abuse they will encounter....
Most of the abuse I have encountered is from voters furious we are still in the EU despite the fact they voted Out
Only because the terms of posting here limit our modes of expression....
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
Note, YouGov did not use the correct but perhaps leading word “suspend” in their question.
If Boris was suspending Parliament wholly in the run up to Brexit, many might say "No, I do not approve." If told he is suspending it for four more days than were planned, but there will still be opportunities to debate whatever deal comes out of the EU Summit, many might instead say "WWTF is the big deal then?"
It's still 4 less days than was previously on the Parliamentary Calendar.
However it's not just 4 less days, it's 4 less days + another 4 days for the Queen's speech and only then can other business start to take effect.
And all legislation from the current session lost. That on its own wrecks the idea of 'Parliament taking control of the agenda.'
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
So fewer voters oppose proroguing Parliament than even the 48% who voted Remain then and a majority of Tory and Leave voters back proroguing Parliament to enforce Brexit.
Under FPTP Boris can win on that as a last restort with a split Remainer vote, while still trying for a technical solution for the Irish border first
Haha - we predicted earlier today how you would try to spin this.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
The idea that Davidson's moderation was a stance that was losing votes for the Tories in Scotland is an eccentric one, and I suspect you'll learn by the end of the year that it's also fundamentally wrong.
The Tories got just 15% and 1 seat in Scotland in 2015 under Davidson (before the EU referendum had even taken place), the Tories came 4th in Scotland in the European elections in May under Davidson after May extended behind the Brexit Party.
Davidson won votes in 2016 and 2017 on an anti SNP, pro Union message, not an anti Brexit message
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
I don't think Nigel Farage is going to disappear until he is put in a coffin. If it is not Brexit he is campaigning on, it will be immigration or law and order or something populist. He is a narcist and all the Brexit supporting media and the Tory party are doing is amplifying his message. I am amazed how some Tories go along with all this even though they may never have voted for Brexit or even support the positions the Tory party are taking on key policies....
The Tories can win with the Brexit Party on 10 to 15% as now and in 2015, they cannot win with the Brexit Party on 20 to 25% as was the case when May extended
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
Not much use then, given they will lose 30-40 seats to the Lib Dems as well.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Don't lie like your hero Boris.
I'm not a diehard remainer, I've said we should respect the vote to leave, as was campaigned, and Boris Johnson and his fellow bunch of campaigners said we would Leave with a deal.
In @HUYFD's world there are no Remainers only diehard Remainers.
In the European elections the Tories were 4th in Scotland and the Brexit Party second, only 28% of Scots voted Tory even in 2017 compared to 38% who voted Leave in 2016. Davidson was a strong force leading the anti SNP, pro Union cause but going down an anti Brexit path was not helping the Tories in Scotland either
Which is not an answer to the question "where does Boris make up those 12 seats which he needs for his majority".
Labour Leave seats, of which he will take about 30 to 40 on the latest polling (though he will still hold up to half the Tory seats in Scotland too anyway)
Why doesn't he just call a GE then?
Because he can't which is why this is such a grade A mess.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
Note, YouGov did not use the correct but perhaps leading word “suspend” in their question.
If Boris was suspending Parliament wholly in the run up to Brexit, many might say "No, I do not approve." If told he is suspending it for four more days than were planned, but there will still be opportunities to debate whatever deal comes out of the EU Summit, many might instead say "WWTF is the big deal then?"
It's still 4 less days than was previously on the Parliamentary Calendar.
However it's not just 4 less days, it's 4 less days + another 4 days for the Queen's speech and only then can other business start to take effect.
But there's been no business happening in the House anyway!
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
So fewer voters oppose proroguing Parliament than even the 48% who voted Remain then and a majority of Tory and Leave voters back proroguing Parliament to enforce Brexit.
Under FPTP Boris can win on that as a last restort with a split Remainer vote, while still trying for a technical solution for the Irish border first
Have you considered a career as a spin doctor? I believe Alastair Campbell has retired.
Come back to me when those 'thousands' get anywhere near the 17 million who voted Leave
And how many voted No Deal?
Anyone saying a pro no deal petition will get 17.4M signatories? Anyone here saying any pro leave petition even for the most softest brexit will get 17.4 signatories? Any takers for a pro no deal petition spanking any anti no deal petition? You’re not are you. Let us just rejoice in Cameron giving us these petitions and direct democracy votes, and the strong and stable fun they bring.
What I don't understand in all of this us why Boris has kicked this hornets nest for the sake of 4 extra days without Parliament sitting.
He wants the hornets buzzing. The aim is to hustle his opponents into a vote of no confidence.
It seems to be. I think maybe smart arsed. The consensus undoubtedly is that MPs are a useless bunch. It's quite a step from there to thinking Johnson is right to get rid of them because he finds a functioning parliament inconvenient. People may not be able to spell "prorogue" or know what it means in constitutional terms. But they can smell a rat at fifty paces.
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
So fewer voters oppose proroguing Parliament than even the 48% who voted Remain then and a majority of Tory and Leave voters back proroguing Parliament to enforce Brexit.
Under FPTP Boris can win on that as a last restort with a split Remainer vote, while still trying for a technical solution for the Irish border first
It's good to know come rain, shine or constitutional warfare, HYUFD will still valiantly put a very unconvincing spin on opinion polls.
Some things never change!
It’s only ever about the future of the blue team, after all you have the full home and away kits you have invested you’re life in supporting them. They can’t tell you why they should survive but you just have to believe that it is their god given right to. They are lying shysters who are only interested in the future of the Conservative party and ensuring their venture capitalist backers continue to make money and the Uber rich can keep their off shore investments hidden from Financial Transparency regulations coming their n in 2020. This is the only reason they want brexit it has fuck all to do with the left behind it’s all about making more money for themselves.
All the indignant remoaner Tories will have to think carefully what they wish for. If we have a GE, which is frankly more important a) remaining part of the EU and risking PM Corbyn taxing them out of existence, seeing the value of their houses collapse and their pension funds evaporate as the stock market collapses or b) it becoming slightly inconvenient to go on their 4 European holidays each year by having to queue for a wee while at the airport passport control as we used to have to do automatically until a few years ago.
Vote LibDem get Corbyn, vote Green get Corbyn, vote SNP get Corbyn. The only way to avoid getting Corbyn is to vote Tory.
yawn. Some of us "remoaners" (yawn again) have principles. I won't vote for a Marxist, but I won't vote for a bunch of nutters and crypto-fascists either. If Corbyn does get near power it will be because of people who thought throwing away the Conservative Party USPs of sensible economics and sensible government is worth it for an emotional desire to turn Britain back to a 1950s utopia that never existed. On day the grown ups will take the Conservative Party back again. Until then it is vote LD and proud!
You were obviously more of a 19th century Liberal than a Tory anyway, if Corbyn gets into power it will be because the Tories do not deliver Brexit and split the rightwing vote with the Brexit Party, not because they actually deliver the Brexit the British People voted for
Bang on cue the 'you don't back the current policy 100% so were never really a Tory' approach.
One thing this has done is flush out liberals who were never really Tories or conservatives in the first place, just because you are not a socialist does not make you a Tory, especially if you are a republican diehard Remainer like TSE for example
Don't lie like your hero Boris.
I'm not a diehard remainer, I've said we should respect the vote to leave, as was campaigned, and Boris Johnson and his fellow bunch of campaigners said we would Leave with a deal.
In @HUYFD's world there are no Remainers only diehard Remainers.
One of the highlights of this year was seeing Remain voting HYUFD tell Leave voting Stodge and Casino Royale that they are not proper Brexiteers.
Comments
I do also think that there's some 'smoke' in this. They're giving Corbyn some cover so he can avoid the issue.
Much of the noise can be disregarded - it is just opportunist noise.
Personally I'm fully on board with today's steps, although this whole process has given be long periods of disquiet.
I also completely disapprove of this sort of chicanery, and also have some degree of admiration as to the political bravery demonstrated.
(There may be some self-contradictions here!)
There will be toasting his success at Balmoral..
So can the PB community join in .
Three cheers , hip hip hooray.
If you'd asked before all this brexit heat was added to the issue everyone would have said that it was obviously his *job* to ask for an extension in these circumstances. Once you're in an election campaign the PM is supposed to just keep things ticking over and avoid controversial changes that could be decided by the next government. I guess at this point someone will say that the letter of the current legislation calls for an exit so extending that is the change, but nobody looking at this thing neutrally would read it that way.
https://twitter.com/stephenpaton134/status/1166673781294809088?s=20
Ultimately the country has to move on, we have to set domestic agenda etc etc. How many can kicks before the cost of delaying Brexit exceeds any potential downturn on no deal? The naval gazing is absurd, and as sneaky and distasteful Boris trickery today is, the inability of parliament to deliver on the referendum result cannot go on indefinitely, and the hijacking of the airwaves with swivel eyed nonsense about coup d'etats etc is frankly bizarre! Dictators dont normally reopen parliament or confirm there will be time to debate and vote on what they are supposedly avoiding.
MPs have had ample opportunity to get their ducks in a row, they chose to play for party advantages etc instead. Tough.
The Tories are nothing without sensible economics and sensible government. I never thought the UK could follow in the footsteps of states that victimise and marginalise elected officials but the last few years have seen a sorry decline in discourse that has culminated in the marginalisation of Parliament...
Nevertheless, given the motivation of Boris is clear in that he doesn't like Parliament trying to stymie him, given how it throws a wrench into supposed plans to get a deal through parliament and given that no matter how unreasonable parliament may be they are the ones meant to act on our behalf, and we can punish them when we don't like what they do, and given the possibility this is nothing but a gimmick so he can get a GE without being blamed for it, I see nothing untoward in calling out Boris as the most reasonable in this particular bit of game playing. And I say that as no fan of Corbyn, the Grievers, or those who cry about no deal while refusing to vote for a deal to stop it.
I am sure there will be another protest and I am sure it will be well attended.
Yep, there may be some self-cntradictions there!
https://www.peoples-vote.uk/let_us_be_heard#route
By ending the parliamentary session so abruptly he controls what bills go into the wash up process. And any that are not - just, to take a random example, all the bills proposed recently by Remainers - are instantly lost and would need reintroducing. Which there would not be time for in October.
It's cynical, it's legal, and it's absolutely brilliant in its Machiavellian nature. It's just disastrous for the country.
Very popular in some working class areas, I believe.
Could someone in the PB community tell me when it's okay to inhale again? Thanks.
https://twitter.com/David_Cameron/status/595112367358406656?s=20
In terms of firing up your base, firing up your opponents, and making Britain look even dafter in eyes of the world, we’ll done Boris.
In terms of passing off five weeks suspension at this crucial time as normal, day after your opponents vowed to use parliamentary time to thwart you, it is the lamest of cover stories.
But in terms of avoiding scrutiny on just about everything, and avoiding your opponents stopping no deal, it doesn’t (but then you don’t really want it to do you Cummings). Because this still leaves plenty of parliamentary time to scrutinise Boris negotiated deal, and block no deal if necessary. It was always wise to wait till October to do that anyway, to avoid team Boris calling you a traitor and saboteur of his negotiation.
Lets not rule out this as clever, Trumpesque, base mobilising smoke screen. Nothing more. There’s only one action top of Boris to do list, whats the alternate plan for the backstop.
The backstop is there to avoid a hard border across Ireland when UK and EU are operating different customs regimes. The hard border not only breaks treaties signed up to by the UK government, in practice it will become focal for protest, likely end up with British troops manning it. The previous PMs negotiation came up with this backstop, did not come up with an alternative even in face of mortal destruction. Boris governments official policy is not we don’t like the backstop so no backstop, the only honest policy or realistic negotiation is an alternative plan to be agreed with EU replacing proposed backstop, something Boris with customary oomph agreed to have settled in just 30 days last week, accepting it was up to Britain to provide a solution, and said he was "more than happy" with the "blistering timetable" Merkel had set out.
So Boris, the EU heads of state and negotiators, the British people, the whole world is waiting to hear your plan for alternative backstop, your timetable is ticking down.
If the opposition parties are smart they shouldn’t allow themselves to be distracted, this is the line they should keep the pressure up with. “why are you prevaricating day after day and chucking out Trumpesque chaff?” Where’s your backstop alternative?
Johnson seems to be following a 30% strategy, not even a 50% one.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1166717448118296576
Your point is a good one... where is that backstop alternative Boris?
Under FPTP Boris can win on that as a last restort with a split Remainer vote, while still trying for a technical solution for the Irish border first
Some things never change!
However it's not just 4 less days, it's 4 less days + another 4 days for the Queen's speech and only then can other business start to take effect.
Don’t let him get away with Trump style distractions.
Where is that backstop alternative Boris? Should be the only question in town.
I'm not a diehard remainer, I've said we should respect the vote to leave, as was campaigned, and Boris Johnson and his fellow bunch of campaigners said we would Leave with a deal.
Davidson won votes in 2016 and 2017 on an anti SNP, pro Union message, not an anti Brexit message
You’re not are you. Let us just rejoice in Cameron giving us these petitions and direct democracy votes, and the strong and stable fun they bring.