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  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1164104166417031168?s=20

    Politically, it will also play well with Johnson's bid to win back Brexit Party supporters.

    All that matters to Boris IMO... to hell with the country, vote for Boris!!
    Corbyn's made this calculation too.
    Having two reality-denying egomanics at the top of the parties is why we are in this mess.

    History would think better of Corbyn if he stood aside and said "I am doing this for the good of the country" and then get rewarded with a senior position, but he is an ideologue pursing his obsession.

    We get the politicians we deserve...
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722

    More in that Kantar poll:

    Which of the following scenarios do you favour most?
    Leave No Deal: 23
    Leave TM Deal: 9
    Leave but stay in SM/CU: 13
    Remain/Revoke A50: 33
    DK: 22

    Should the final deal be put to public vote:
    Yes: 52
    No: 29
    DK: 19

    How likely Leave by Oct 31?
    Net Likely: 46
    Net Unlikely: 35
    DK: 19

    Those are very interesting. I am trying to reconcile them with the headline voting figures. The only way I can do is with the idea that for a lot of voters a Corbyn government is worse than No Deal.

    Perhaps the sheer force of Boris's charisma, audacity and spunk transcends Brexit, nay transcends even politics itself. In him the public sees the personification of everything they crave in life but have always been too timid or mediocre to achieve, and are just compelled to reward him for it.
    You're laying it on a bit too thick now.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    midwinter said:

    dixiedean said:

    More in that Kantar poll:

    Which of the following scenarios do you favour most?
    Leave No Deal: 23
    Leave TM Deal: 9
    Leave but stay in SM/CU: 13
    Remain/Revoke A50: 33
    DK: 22

    Should the final deal be put to public vote:
    Yes: 52
    No: 29
    DK: 19

    How likely Leave by Oct 31?
    Net Likely: 46
    Net Unlikely: 35
    DK: 19

    Those are very interesting. I am trying to reconcile them with the headline voting figures. The only way I can do is with the idea that for a lot of voters a Corbyn government is worse than No Deal.

    Perhaps the sheer force of Boris's charisma, audacity and spunk transcends Brexit, nay transcends even politics itself. In him the public sees the personification of everything they crave in life but have always been too timid or mediocre to achieve, and are just compelled to reward him for it.
    Boris’s spunk.

    It has come to this.
    He's spaffing it liberally in the face of a grateful nation it would seem.
    We're gratefully lapping it up
    Bukkake Boris Saves the Day!

    I can see the Election Broadcast now, complete with wah-wah guitar.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    GIN1138 said:
    When do we invade China and give them a damn good thrashing
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    CatMan said:

    "Government finances weaker than expected in July"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49418751

    Just the start of Boris' splurge on public sector pay, capital projects, housing, anything else needed to win votes. Economic stability is so overrated when you have an election to win.

    Ask Hammond who achieved the truly remarkable of significantly improving the public deficit in an election year. The gratitude was underwhelming. Boris will not make that mistake and, at this point in the cycle, he might even be right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    malcolmg said:

    GIN1138 said:
    When do we invade China and give them a damn good thrashing
    Depends if the tory polling dips during the election .
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    DavidL said:

    So the good news on the GERS figures is that the deficit is down just over £1bn from last year to this.

    The bad news is even current expenditure remains in deficit with no provision for capex. To put that in perspective the UK overall fiscal balance remains a deficit of 1.1% of GDP but the current figure is actually in surplus by 0.8% of GDP. Scotland has a deficit in excess of 4%.

    More good news is that revenues have risen quite fast this last year, faster than for the UK as a whole (5.1% vs 4.5%). This no doubt reflects the higher taxes charged by Nicola's government on HRTs. Whether that will be sustainable in the medium term remains to be seen.

    Overall these figures show a modest improvement in Scotland's fiscal balance and a very modest step towards sustainability. In the last few months we have seen 2 significant gas fields come online in the north sea. I think that is likely to at least offset the long term decline of north sea income for a while.

    I do not want independence. I will never want independence. I am British and proudly so. But if Scotland is going to go the route of independence they will need a series of better years to get even close to some sort of sustainability. From a desperately poor base this is a small step in that direction.

    The only intelligent unionist/Tory on the board, almost makes up for the nasties on here.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Kantar don't prompt for Brexit Party btw - so the BRX -> CON swing might be overstated a bit... but its definitely headed in the Tories direction. The Tories are lucky Labour won Peterborough.
  • GIN1138 said:

    More in that Kantar poll:

    Which of the following scenarios do you favour most?
    Leave No Deal: 23
    Leave TM Deal: 9
    Leave but stay in SM/CU: 13
    Remain/Revoke A50: 33
    DK: 22

    Should the final deal be put to public vote:
    Yes: 52
    No: 29
    DK: 19

    How likely Leave by Oct 31?
    Net Likely: 46
    Net Unlikely: 35
    DK: 19

    No Deal at just 23%.

    If BoZo does this then the Tories are crippled for a generation.

    Yep - I think he'll be the last Tory PM to win a national election in my lifetime.

    Surely it depends what actually happens in the event of No Deal?

    The bar has been set very, very, very high for complete and total catastrophe

    Anything short of End Of Days and the sky falling in won't be viewed as being too bad in the circumstances? ;)

    Abstract and reality are very different things, of course. I am not expecting Day One meltdown, but I am expecting a significant long-term toll in a wide variety of areas from inward investment, through jobs and salaries, to social care and other forms of public spending, not to mention the very unity of the UK. It will be playing out throughout the years following the general election I am expecting Johnson to win.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    148grss said:

    The Kantar poll might be accurate. No particular reason to assume it isn't. However, it's worth noting that it uniquely has Labour + Conservatives at 70%, while every other pollster has that combination in the 50s at present (this is also true even before allowing for their adjustments for false recall of vote at the last election). This suggests that their sample looks quite different from other pollsters'.

    They didn't prompt BXP or Green, so they would have had to write in Other and then write in BXP or Green. That to me presents an issue in comparing it to polls that do prompt. Maybe Kantar is correct and the field is wrong, as we know their are issues with prompting, but *shrug*
    The key is to compare with their own previous poll, conducted on the same basis, back in May. I'd say that wasn't a good pointer to the European elections later in the month. A GE is different. Who knows?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    Guess that was a non starter. Next plan please!

    https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1164095854170521600?s=20
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1164104166417031168?s=20

    Politically, it will also play well with Johnson's bid to win back Brexit Party supporters.

    All that matters to Boris IMO... to hell with the country, vote for Boris!!
    Boris should also scrap the Heathrow expansion while he's at it. Yes, profound and difficult questions concerning the country's vital infrastructure and long-term prospects will be binned, but think of the short-term publicity!
    Isn't Heathrow "On review" too ?
    We are opening up to the world. The last thing we want is better transport systems.

    Perhaps post-Brexit, the Donald will agree special deals to let US firm build everything for us. They could run everything to... (or should that be "ruin everything"?)
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Why? The EU are not impressed by Boris-friendly polls. They have different priorities so the UK has made its decision and can be left to deal with it.
    I find it amazing how many people fail to realise this.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1164104166417031168?s=20

    Politically, it will also play well with Johnson's bid to win back Brexit Party supporters.

    All that matters to Boris IMO... to hell with the country, vote for Boris!!
    It's called democracy.

    Polling from ComRes back in February:

    Building HS2 represents good value for taxpayers money. Agree 12%, Disagree 57%.

    HS2 should be scrapped: Agree 43%, Disagree 20%

    Money for HS2 could be better spent on existing railways: 72% agree, 7% disagree.

    Money for HS2 could be better spent on improving roads: 62% agree, 13% disagree.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    CatMan said:

    Guess that was a non starter. Next plan please!

    https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1164095854170521600?s=20

    The 'we are stupid or confused about our plans' admission is only used when no better excuses exist, so that's a bad sign.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1164104166417031168?s=20

    Politically, it will also play well with Johnson's bid to win back Brexit Party supporters.

    All that matters to Boris IMO... to hell with the country, vote for Boris!!
    Boris should also scrap the Heathrow expansion while he's at it. Yes, profound and difficult questions concerning the country's vital infrastructure and long-term prospects will be binned, but think of the short-term publicity!
    Isn't Heathrow "On review" too ?
    We are opening up to the world. The last thing we want is better transport systems.

    Perhaps post-Brexit, the Donald will agree special deals to let US firm build everything for us. They could run everything to... (or should that be "ruin everything"?)
    I think it would be pretty easy to convince Trump that Greenland is actually the big bit attached to Northern Ireland.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    CatMan said:

    Guess that was a non starter. Next plan please!

    https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1164095854170521600?s=20

    May would have let nonsense like that fester and be reported in all the papers. Good to see Number 10 on top of things.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1164104166417031168?s=20

    Politically, it will also play well with Johnson's bid to win back Brexit Party supporters.

    All that matters to Boris IMO... to hell with the country, vote for Boris!!
    It's called democracy.

    Polling from ComRes back in February:

    Building HS2 represents good value for taxpayers money. Agree 12%, Disagree 57%.

    HS2 should be scrapped: Agree 43%, Disagree 20%

    Money for HS2 could be better spent on existing railways: 72% agree, 7% disagree.

    Money for HS2 could be better spent on improving roads: 62% agree, 13% disagree.
    If 90% of the population told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    This might sound like a PB parody but a couple of things that have been mentioned to me unprompted by Brexit No deal fans of my acquaintance

    i) Bombing the french
    ii) Tube scene from darkest hour.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,391
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1164104166417031168?s=20

    Politically, it will also play well with Johnson's bid to win back Brexit Party supporters.

    All that matters to Boris IMO... to hell with the country, vote for Boris!!
    Corbyn's made this calculation too.
    Unfortunately for him no one is giving him their vote.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1164104166417031168?s=20

    Former HS2 Ltd chairman Douglas Oakervee will lead the inquiry, with Lord Berkeley - a long-term critic of the high-speed railway scheme - acting as his deputy.

    Oakervee's role was already known. However, Lord Berkeley's appointment seems to me to be highly significant, heralding an enquiry whose conclusion cannot be predicted and must mean that the government is doing more than just going through the motions.

    Politically, it will also play well with Johnson's bid to win back Brexit Party supporters.

    An obvious and deeply cynical ploy.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490

    TOPPING said:

    I don't think the UK is as bothered as Ireland by a hard border.

    A plausible scenario is:

    Hard border = resurgence of terrorist activity = need for British troops to protect border posts and officials.

    At the height of Op Banner there were 40,000-odd forces on the ground sent by the UK government (HMF, plus UDR plus RUC).

    Those days are gone. The army is now around 80,000 strong so to replicate the Op Banner manning would take the entire British army. Leaving no wiggle room for quelling any troublesome middle Eastern dictators or a pesky Russia for example.

    We simply could not cope.
    The proposed border installations and personnel would be Republic of Ireland border installations and personnel. Whilst I am sure we would be supportive in any way we could, the responsibility to protect them would be the Republic's.
    You’d hand over policing responsibility in Northern Ireland to Ireland?
    I would hand over protecting Republic of Ireland property and personnel on Republic of Ireland land to the Republic of Ireland. Call me old fashioned.
    Behold the magnanimity of the mighty imperialist.
    What on earth are you talking about?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,391
    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    Putting the Kantar poll into the EMA (to even out MOE and outliers) gives:

    Con 30% Lab 25% LD 18% BXP 14%

    Taking an average of Electoral Calculus and Flavible (which are converging in their predictions):

    Con 315
    Lab 215
    LD 47
    BXP 1
    Grn 1
    PC 4
    SNP 51

    For the first time in a long time the Tories can form a government (with C&S from DUP) and Labour can't. But it's very close.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,573

    Tory England:

    ‘Shipping containers used to house homeless children’

    The Children's Commissioner for England says that as well as the 124,000 children officially homeless, a further 90,000 are estimated to be "sofa-surfing".

    Her report tells of families housed in repurposed shipping containers and office blocks, and whole families living in tiny spaces.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-49412835

    As well as being Tory England it is also a consequence of several years of 500,000 per annum increase in UK population in a NIMBY society.

  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    Some other nuggets:

    The UK is due to leave the EU on 29 March 2019 [sic]. There are a number of actions which people might take ahead of this date. Have you already or are you likely to... - Stockpile food or medicine


    EuRef Vote:
    Have done/ Likely / Won't / Not Sure
    Leave: 6 / 14 / 63 / 8
    Remain: 5 / 20 / 46 / 19

    So it looks like "Project Fear" is mainly scaring Remainers.

    What does leaving on the 29th March mean ? Is this a poll from March or is it complete rubbish ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    I don't think the UK is as bothered as Ireland by a hard border.

    A plausible scenario is:

    Hard border = resurgence of terrorist activity = need for British troops to protect border posts and officials.

    At the height of Op Banner there were 40,000-odd forces on the ground sent by the UK government (HMF, plus UDR plus RUC).

    Those days are gone. The army is now around 80,000 strong so to replicate the Op Banner manning would take the entire British army. Leaving no wiggle room for quelling any troublesome middle Eastern dictators or a pesky Russia for example.

    We simply could not cope.
    The proposed border installations and personnel would be Republic of Ireland border installations and personnel. Whilst I am sure we would be supportive in any way we could, the responsibility to protect them would be the Republic's.
    You’d hand over policing responsibility in Northern Ireland to Ireland?
    I would hand over protecting Republic of Ireland property and personnel on Republic of Ireland land to the Republic of Ireland. Call me old fashioned.
    Behold the magnanimity of the mighty imperialist.
    What on earth are you talking about?
    Answering your it will be Ireland's problem comment...If, as a result of a treaty obligation there have to be border posts, we will have our fairs share. In which case please refer to my post.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1164104166417031168?s=20

    Politically, it will also play well with Johnson's bid to win back Brexit Party supporters.

    All that matters to Boris IMO... to hell with the country, vote for Boris!!
    It's called democracy.

    Polling from ComRes back in February:

    Building HS2 represents good value for taxpayers money. Agree 12%, Disagree 57%.

    HS2 should be scrapped: Agree 43%, Disagree 20%

    Money for HS2 could be better spent on existing railways: 72% agree, 7% disagree.

    Money for HS2 could be better spent on improving roads: 62% agree, 13% disagree.
    If 90% of the population told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?
    90% of leavers would if the person asking was Boris.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    My parents live in Wigan. Ignoring price, how to they get to Glasgow, Birmingham or London quickly and efficiently? Train every time.
    To Liverpool, Leeds or Hull? Car no question. It is why the M62 is creaking to breaking point. A cross Pennine fast rail link is decades overdue.

    Not disagreeing with the idea of improved transpennine rail links, surely the M62 isn't too much of a problem if your parents are still choosing the car.
    No. It is purely the hideously antiquated state of the alternative.
    I suppose the question for a Transpennine HS route is, which places would be served? I'd suggest Wigan would not be.
    That is a point. However, either Wigan or Warrington would have to be, to connect with the London to Glasgow main line.
    Perhaps we could build a new mainline from London to each end of this transpennine high-speed route?
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    tlg86 said:

    More in that Kantar poll:

    Which of the following scenarios do you favour most?
    Leave No Deal: 23
    Leave TM Deal: 9
    Leave but stay in SM/CU: 13
    Remain/Revoke A50: 33
    DK: 22

    Should the final deal be put to public vote:
    Yes: 52
    No: 29
    DK: 19

    How likely Leave by Oct 31?
    Net Likely: 46
    Net Unlikely: 35
    DK: 19

    That “public vote” split is an eye opener.
    Does it say what the alternative to the deal is?
    Remain/Revoke 33
    EFTA+/May’s Deal 22
    No Deal 23

    As we see, Leaving with a Deal is probably the median opinion, but Leaving with a Deal is also the least favourite option.
    Since we're adding things together:

    Leave: 45
    Remain: 33
    Not necessarily . Given a choice between Remain and No Deal Brexit many EFTA/May's Deal will choose Remain.
  • Some other nuggets:

    The UK is due to leave the EU on 29 March 2019 [sic]. There are a number of actions which people might take ahead of this date. Have you already or are you likely to... - Stockpile food or medicine


    EuRef Vote:
    Have done/ Likely / Won't / Not Sure
    Leave: 6 / 14 / 63 / 8
    Remain: 5 / 20 / 46 / 19

    So it looks like "Project Fear" is mainly scaring Remainers.

    What does leaving on the 29th March mean ? Is this a poll from March or is it complete rubbish ?
    I think it was a cockup.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1164104166417031168?s=20

    Politically, it will also play well with Johnson's bid to win back Brexit Party supporters.

    All that matters to Boris IMO... to hell with the country, vote for Boris!!
    Boris should also scrap the Heathrow expansion while he's at it. Yes, profound and difficult questions concerning the country's vital infrastructure and long-term prospects will be binned, but think of the short-term publicity!
    Isn't Heathrow "On review" too ?
    We are opening up to the world. The last thing we want is better transport systems.

    Perhaps post-Brexit, the Donald will agree special deals to let US firm build everything for us. They could run everything to... (or should that be "ruin everything"?)
    I think it would be pretty easy to convince Trump that Greenland is actually the big bit attached to Northern Ireland.
    "You mean Greenland is not the place where they color their beer green on St. Patricks day?"
    "No Mr President, that's Ireland"
    "I Know Greenland is an Island, and I want to buy it"
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Brom said:

    CatMan said:

    Guess that was a non starter. Next plan please!

    https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1164095854170521600?s=20

    May would have let nonsense like that fester and be reported in all the papers. Good to see Number 10 on top of things.
    Number 10 versus the Murdoch press again. Boris has got the complete set now: Sun, Times and Sunday Times.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1164104166417031168?s=20

    Politically, it will also play well with Johnson's bid to win back Brexit Party supporters.

    All that matters to Boris IMO... to hell with the country, vote for Boris!!
    It's called democracy.

    Polling from ComRes back in February:

    Building HS2 represents good value for taxpayers money. Agree 12%, Disagree 57%.

    HS2 should be scrapped: Agree 43%, Disagree 20%

    Money for HS2 could be better spent on existing railways: 72% agree, 7% disagree.

    Money for HS2 could be better spent on improving roads: 62% agree, 13% disagree.
    If 90% of the population told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?
    I'd probably have a think about why they thought it was a good idea. What's the alternative and what are the consequences?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    The EU CAN'T make any concessions worth having, the best you'd get is a tweak to the wording.
    They have to stick by a member state (Eire) and they would have to get any change past all 27 governments.
    By 31st October? No Chance.

    What part of those statement do you disagree with?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,391

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    All of it, because the EU told us the WA is not up for renegotiation. They advised HMG not to waste time over the six months extension by thinking the EU will capitulate come October.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    The problem is not the statement but your assumption that the converse is true! If your EU friends think that there is no "possibility that parliament will block brexit" you conclude that they will allow a renegotiation of the WA.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019
    On topic you have to go back to Bill Clinton in 1992 to find the last time the winner of the Iowa caucuses did not win the Democratic nomination, so if Warren beats Biden in Iowa she is likely nominee
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    edited August 2019

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    All of it, because the EU told us the WA is not up for renegotiation. They advised HMG not to waste time over the six months extension by thinking the EU will capitulate come October.
    Which is stupid by the EU and just goes to show the mindset of obstinacy and lack of conpromise all round. I would vote for it, but clearly parliament won't, so they should realise they pushed the UK too far. No one is taking responsibility for their own part in this mess.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    The interesting thing about HS2, which is a bit short of friends, is how much Andy Burnham supports it. He clearly recognises that better connections between London and Manchester would be good for Manchester. It's a problem faced by most of the UK including Edinburgh: do you try to compete with London or do you try and serve it? The latter looks much the safer course.

    From a Dundee perspective there is currently 3 flights a day from Dundee to London City up for tender. There may be no takers but it would certainly help.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Barnesian said:

    Putting the Kantar poll into the EMA (to even out MOE and outliers) gives:

    Con 30% Lab 25% LD 18% BXP 14%

    Taking an average of Electoral Calculus and Flavible (which are converging in their predictions):

    Con 315
    Lab 215
    LD 47
    BXP 1
    Grn 1
    PC 4
    SNP 51

    For the first time in a long time the Tories can form a government (with C&S from DUP) and Labour can't. But it's very close.

    Pretty damn similar to now for the government. A majority of 7, even with the shaky assumption that the DUP get 10 again.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't think the UK is as bothered as Ireland by a hard border.

    A plausible scenario is:

    Hard border = resurgence of terrorist activity = need for British troops to protect border posts and officials.

    At the height of Op Banner there were 40,000-odd forces on the ground sent by the UK government (HMF, plus UDR plus RUC).

    Those days are gone. The army is now around 80,000 strong so to replicate the Op Banner manning would take the entire British army. Leaving no wiggle room for quelling any troublesome middle Eastern dictators or a pesky Russia for example.

    We simply could not cope.
    The proposed border installations and personnel would be Republic of Ireland border installations and personnel. Whilst I am sure we would be supportive in any way we could, the responsibility to protect them would be the Republic's.
    You’d hand over policing responsibility in Northern Ireland to Ireland?
    I would hand over protecting Republic of Ireland property and personnel on Republic of Ireland land to the Republic of Ireland. Call me old fashioned.
    Behold the magnanimity of the mighty imperialist.
    What on earth are you talking about?
    Answering your it will be Ireland's problem comment...If, as a result of a treaty obligation there have to be border posts, we will have our fairs share. In which case please refer to my post.
    Suggesting that the Republic of Ireland choosing to erect a hard border will result in a British military commitment matching that of the height of the troubles is deeply fanciful.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    Tory England:

    ‘Shipping containers used to house homeless children’

    The Children's Commissioner for England says that as well as the 124,000 children officially homeless, a further 90,000 are estimated to be "sofa-surfing".

    Her report tells of families housed in repurposed shipping containers and office blocks, and whole families living in tiny spaces.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-49412835

    Even a converted shipping container at least puts a roof over their heads so they are not homeless
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    More in that Kantar poll:

    Which of the following scenarios do you favour most?
    Leave No Deal: 23
    Leave TM Deal: 9
    Leave but stay in SM/CU: 13
    Remain/Revoke A50: 33
    DK: 22

    Should the final deal be put to public vote:
    Yes: 52
    No: 29
    DK: 19

    How likely Leave by Oct 31?
    Net Likely: 46
    Net Unlikely: 35
    DK: 19

    No Deal at just 23%.

    If BoZo does this then the Tories are crippled for a generation.
    Not when only 33% back Revoke and Remain
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    I'm not saying that there is no a discrepancy there but I think you overstate it. Boris's position, as I understand it, is not that no deal won't be a problem but that we can cope. He remains clear that he wants a deal, just not the deal that is on the table which May negotiated.

    The issue is whether the EU also regards a deal as optimal, is even capable of renegotiating at this point and is willing to do so to achieve that deal. I think the importance of the second point is being somewhat undersold here, not least with the collapse of the Italian government. How do the mechanics of the EU allow a material change to the deal even if they were so minded?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited August 2019
    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    The other thing they know is that Boris doesn't have a majority anyway, so even if they were to ditch the backstop, and somehow managed to do this by October 31st and get the new deal through the European Parliament by then, the Withdrawal Agreement would probably sill not be ratified. So why on earth would they risk being seen as abandoning Ireland when doing so wouldn't even get round the immediate problem?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    So Kantar don't prompt for BXP but there's likely to be a squeeze on them in an election anyhow, so it may not be far out.

    Gonna be hard to make the GoNAfaE work against polling like this. If Boris is determined to drive his tractor off a cliff, it's hard to see Corbyn volunteering to lie down in front of it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    More in that Kantar poll:

    Which of the following scenarios do you favour most?
    Leave No Deal: 23
    Leave TM Deal: 9
    Leave but stay in SM/CU: 13
    Remain/Revoke A50: 33
    DK: 22

    Should the final deal be put to public vote:
    Yes: 52
    No: 29
    DK: 19

    How likely Leave by Oct 31?
    Net Likely: 46
    Net Unlikely: 35
    DK: 19

    No Deal at just 23%.

    If BoZo does this then the Tories are crippled for a generation.

    Yep - I think he'll be the last Tory PM to win a national election in my lifetime.

    Even Labour after 1979 got back 18 years later as did the Tories 13 years after 1997

    Unless you are over 60 it is unlikely you will fail to see another Tory PM win a general election after Boris' triumph in the autumn
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    The bit you're missing is that there's a "sweet spot" where it doesn't hurt us enough that the majority of UK citizens would notice, but does just enough damage to Ireland to matter. And possibly also to the tourism incomes of eg Malta and Cyprus.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    I'm not saying that there is no a discrepancy there but I think you overstate it. Boris's position, as I understand it, is not that no deal won't be a problem but that we can cope. He remains clear that he wants a deal, just not the deal that is on the table which May negotiated.

    The issue is whether the EU also regards a deal as optimal, is even capable of renegotiating at this point and is willing to do so to achieve that deal. I think the importance of the second point is being somewhat undersold here, not least with the collapse of the Italian government. How do the mechanics of the EU allow a material change to the deal even if they were so minded?
    The mechanics are important, but so is the will. Leavers tend to blithely ignore the fact that the original WDA was seen by many EU governments as having given far too much to the UK.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited August 2019

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't think the UK is as bothered as Ireland by a hard border.

    A plausible scenario is:

    Hard border = resurgence of terrorist activity = need for British troops to protect border posts and officials.

    At the height of Op Banner there were 40,000-odd forces on the ground sent by the UK government (HMF, plus UDR plus RUC).

    Those days are gone. The army is now around 80,000 strong so to replicate the Op Banner manning would take the entire British army. Leaving no wiggle room for quelling any troublesome middle Eastern dictators or a pesky Russia for example.

    We simply could not cope.
    The proposed border installations and personnel would be Republic of Ireland border installations and personnel. Whilst I am sure we would be supportive in any way we could, the responsibility to protect them would be the Republic's.
    You’d hand over policing responsibility in Northern Ireland to Ireland?
    I would hand over protecting Republic of Ireland property and personnel on Republic of Ireland land to the Republic of Ireland. Call me old fashioned.
    Behold the magnanimity of the mighty imperialist.
    What on earth are you talking about?
    Answering your it will be Ireland's problem comment...If, as a result of a treaty obligation there have to be border posts, we will have our fairs share. In which case please refer to my post.
    Suggesting that the Republic of Ireland choosing to erect a hard border will result in a British military commitment matching that of the height of the troubles is deeply fanciful.

    A hard border might come about as result of a WTO ruling. Therefore relevant to both parties.

    And once there is a hard border there is a hard border.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    The other thing they know is that Boris doesn't have a majority anyway, so even if they were to ditch the backstop, and somehow managed to do this by October 31st and get the new deal through the European Parliament by then, the Withdrawal Agreement would probably sill not be ratified. So why on earth would they risk being seen as abandoning Ireland when doing so wouldn't even get round the immediate problem?
    I think that the deal minus the backstop would probably pass the Commons now. Whether the deal plus the backstop plus some words in the PD about how we are both going to try jolly hard to find an alternative and even extend the transition to do that might prove more pertinent.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    The EU CAN'T make any concessions worth having, the best you'd get is a tweak to the wording.
    They have to stick by a member state (Eire) and they would have to get any change past all 27 governments.
    By 31st October? No Chance.

    What part of those statement do you disagree with?
    If the EU is 'standing by Ireland', that means if Ireland was prepared to find a creative solution to avoid a hard border and an indefinite backstop, the EU would accept.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    Tory England:

    ‘Shipping containers used to house homeless children’

    The Children's Commissioner for England says that as well as the 124,000 children officially homeless, a further 90,000 are estimated to be "sofa-surfing".

    Her report tells of families housed in repurposed shipping containers and office blocks, and whole families living in tiny spaces.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-49412835

    Even a converted shipping container at least puts a roof over their heads so they are not homeless
    Lol
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    I'm not saying that there is no a discrepancy there but I think you overstate it. Boris's position, as I understand it, is not that no deal won't be a problem but that we can cope. He remains clear that he wants a deal, just not the deal that is on the table which May negotiated.

    The issue is whether the EU also regards a deal as optimal, is even capable of renegotiating at this point and is willing to do so to achieve that deal. I think the importance of the second point is being somewhat undersold here, not least with the collapse of the Italian government. How do the mechanics of the EU allow a material change to the deal even if they were so minded?
    The mechanics are important, but so is the will. Leavers tend to blithely ignore the fact that the original WDA was seen by many EU governments as having given far too much to the UK.
    It was a good deal and our political class shamed themselves by rejecting it. I suspect that most, possibly even all, EU governments would prefer to avoid disruption and uncertainty to both the EU budget and their trade at a time of slow down but I also suspect for many it is nowhere near the top of their priorities.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    The EU CAN'T make any concessions worth having, the best you'd get is a tweak to the wording.
    They have to stick by a member state (Eire) and they would have to get any change past all 27 governments.
    By 31st October? No Chance.

    What part of those statement do you disagree with?
    If the EU is 'standing by Ireland', that means if Ireland was prepared to find a creative solution to avoid a hard border and an indefinite backstop, the EU would accept.
    How are they supposed to do that? The best Leaver brains in the UK haven't come up with such a solution.
  • dixiedean said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    The EU CAN'T make any concessions worth having, the best you'd get is a tweak to the wording.
    They have to stick by a member state (Eire) and they would have to get any change past all 27 governments.
    By 31st October? No Chance.

    What part of those statement do you disagree with?
    If the EU is 'standing by Ireland', that means if Ireland was prepared to find a creative solution to avoid a hard border and an indefinite backstop, the EU would accept.
    How are they supposed to do that? The best Leaver brains in the UK haven't come up with such a solution.

    "The best Leaver brains" ... Hmmm.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    dixiedean said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    The EU CAN'T make any concessions worth having, the best you'd get is a tweak to the wording.
    They have to stick by a member state (Eire) and they would have to get any change past all 27 governments.
    By 31st October? No Chance.

    What part of those statement do you disagree with?
    If the EU is 'standing by Ireland', that means if Ireland was prepared to find a creative solution to avoid a hard border and an indefinite backstop, the EU would accept.
    How are they supposed to do that? The best Leaver brains in the UK haven't come up with such a solution.
    Not a high bar tbf.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    The EU CAN'T make any concessions worth having, the best you'd get is a tweak to the wording.
    They have to stick by a member state (Eire) and they would have to get any change past all 27 governments.
    By 31st October? No Chance.

    What part of those statement do you disagree with?
    I note that you don't disagree with anything that Johnson said. The best you can do is by implication to dismiss the relevance of the second part of his statement, on the grounds that having asked for and been given the earth you believe that the EU will never make concessions on anything, so that whether or not the EU believes the UK will follow through can have no effect on its negotiating stance. I disagree with your belief.

    I disagree with you that the EU can't renegotiate. It's more a case of won't. The land border in Ireland means nothing to Brussels other than an excuse to say no. Up to now negotiations have been governed by an EU expectation that it can either persuade the UK to go back on the referendum decision (a long established pattern of EU behaviour towards inconvenient referenda) or agree to terms that still give the EU everything it could want from UK membership and more, remembering that May's agreement settled very little other than to strengthen the EU's hand in the detailed negotiations that would follow.

    Johnson is right that there is no prospect of the UK being offered anything while the EU still holds out the hope that we could change our minds. If the UK leaves, then after 31st October that hope will have gone. I fully expect that if the UK leaves on 31st October, there will be an agreement or series of agreements on trade put in place over the months to follow, on better terms than the abject terms offered so far in order to persuade us to change our minds.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    DavidL said:

    The interesting thing about HS2, which is a bit short of friends, is how much Andy Burnham supports it. He clearly recognises that better connections between London and Manchester would be good for Manchester. It's a problem faced by most of the UK including Edinburgh: do you try to compete with London or do you try and serve it? The latter looks much the safer course.

    From a Dundee perspective there is currently 3 flights a day from Dundee to London City up for tender. There may be no takers but it would certainly help.

    The ticket prices for a lot of regional airports are subsidised by the EU regional airports fund. There must be uncertainty now as to whether this will be replaced by support from the Gvt going forward.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    HYUFD said:

    On topic you have to go back to Bill Clinton in 1992 to find the last time the winner of the Iowa caucuses did not win the Democratic nomination, so if Warren beats Biden in Iowa she is likely nominee

    1996, 2000, 2012 walkovers
    2016 Sanders outperformed by ~12% relative to his national polling in Iowa. Clinton could have lost Iowa and still won.
    2008 Obama outperformed Clinton by 8% relative to his national polling in Iowa. Obama could have lost Iowa and still won. Clinton won the popular vote too in that election too !
    2004 Howard Dean didn't just lose in Iowa he came a humiliating 3rd place. If Biden picks up two Iowa counties then yes his campaign is probably over.

    So I think the 2004 result is the only one Biden backers need to really fear here.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    And only 33% want revoke and Remain.

    My first choice is a Deal but I prefer No Deal to Revoke and Remain
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Chuka Shadow Foreign Affairs, Davey Shadow Chancellor and Jardine Shadow Home Affairs round off the big 3
  • DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    I'm not saying that there is no a discrepancy there but I think you overstate it. Boris's position, as I understand it, is not that no deal won't be a problem but that we can cope. He remains clear that he wants a deal, just not the deal that is on the table which May negotiated.

    The issue is whether the EU also regards a deal as optimal, is even capable of renegotiating at this point and is willing to do so to achieve that deal. I think the importance of the second point is being somewhat undersold here, not least with the collapse of the Italian government. How do the mechanics of the EU allow a material change to the deal even if they were so minded?

    If No Deal is manageable for the UK it will be more than manageable for the EU. If it is not manageable for the UK, then the UK will come back for a deal. Either way works for the EU.

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    dixiedean said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    The EU CAN'T make any concessions worth having, the best you'd get is a tweak to the wording.
    They have to stick by a member state (Eire) and they would have to get any change past all 27 governments.
    By 31st October? No Chance.

    What part of those statement do you disagree with?
    If the EU is 'standing by Ireland', that means if Ireland was prepared to find a creative solution to avoid a hard border and an indefinite backstop, the EU would accept.
    How are they supposed to do that? The best Leaver brains in the UK haven't come up with such a solution.
    Enda Kenny had Visual Studio open on the official Taoiseach Lenovo and was working on it until Varadkar fucked everything up.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    The EU CAN'T make any concessions worth having, the best you'd get is a tweak to the wording.
    They have to stick by a member state (Eire) and they would have to get any change past all 27 governments.
    By 31st October? No Chance.

    What part of those statement do you disagree with?
    I note that you don't disagree with anything that Johnson said. The best you can do is by implication to dismiss the relevance of the second part of his statement, on the grounds that having asked for and been given the earth you believe that the EU will never make concessions on anything, so that whether or not the EU believes the UK will follow through can have no effect on its negotiating stance. I disagree with your belief.

    I disagree with you that the EU can't renegotiate. It's more a case of won't. The land border in Ireland means nothing to Brussels other than an excuse to say no. Up to now negotiations have been governed by an EU expectation that it can either persuade the UK to go back on the referendum decision (a long established pattern of EU behaviour towards inconvenient referenda) or agree to terms that still give the EU everything it could want from UK membership and more, remembering that May's agreement settled very little other than to strengthen the EU's hand in the detailed negotiations that would follow.

    Johnson is right that there is no prospect of the UK being offered anything while the EU still holds out the hope that we could change our minds. If the UK leaves, then after 31st October that hope will have gone. I fully expect that if the UK leaves on 31st October, there will be an agreement or series of agreements on trade put in place over the months to follow, on better terms than the abject terms offered so far in order to persuade us to change our minds.
    You have not understood what the Withdrawal Agreement is about.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    I'm not saying that there is no a discrepancy there but I think you overstate it. Boris's position, as I understand it, is not that no deal won't be a problem but that we can cope. He remains clear that he wants a deal, just not the deal that is on the table which May negotiated.

    The issue is whether the EU also regards a deal as optimal, is even capable of renegotiating at this point and is willing to do so to achieve that deal. I think the importance of the second point is being somewhat undersold here, not least with the collapse of the Italian government. How do the mechanics of the EU allow a material change to the deal even if they were so minded?

    If No Deal is manageable for the UK it will be more than manageable for the EU. If it is not manageable for the UK, then the UK will come back for a deal. Either way works for the EU.

    If No Deal exit is manageable for the UK other EU nations might ultimately follow suit
  • HYUFD said:

    And only 33% want revoke and Remain.

    My first choice is a Deal but I prefer No Deal to Revoke and Remain

    I am sure you do. My first choice is Leave with SU and CU, followed by Revoke and Remain, followed by May's Deal. It all goes to show just how non-binary Leaving the EU actually is and how many people are going to be disappointed come November.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    I'm not saying that there is no a discrepancy there but I think you overstate it. Boris's position, as I understand it, is not that no deal won't be a problem but that we can cope. He remains clear that he wants a deal, just not the deal that is on the table which May negotiated.

    The issue is whether the EU also regards a deal as optimal, is even capable of renegotiating at this point and is willing to do so to achieve that deal. I think the importance of the second point is being somewhat undersold here, not least with the collapse of the Italian government. How do the mechanics of the EU allow a material change to the deal even if they were so minded?

    If No Deal is manageable for the UK it will be more than manageable for the EU. If it is not manageable for the UK, then the UK will come back for a deal. Either way works for the EU.

    If No Deal exit is manageable for the UK other EU nations might ultimately follow suit
    Been a while since that one appeared.
  • HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    I'm not saying that there is no a discrepancy there but I think you overstate it. Boris's position, as I understand it, is not that no deal won't be a problem but that we can cope. He remains clear that he wants a deal, just not the deal that is on the table which May negotiated.

    The issue is whether the EU also regards a deal as optimal, is even capable of renegotiating at this point and is willing to do so to achieve that deal. I think the importance of the second point is being somewhat undersold here, not least with the collapse of the Italian government. How do the mechanics of the EU allow a material change to the deal even if they were so minded?

    If No Deal is manageable for the UK it will be more than manageable for the EU. If it is not manageable for the UK, then the UK will come back for a deal. Either way works for the EU.

    If No Deal exit is manageable for the UK other EU nations might ultimately follow suit

    I doubt it. Even if it is manageable, UK citizens and businesses will still be far less free than they are now, while the UK as a whole will be poorer and entirely dependent on the goodwill of others in term sof international trade.

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    The EU CAN'T make any concessions worth having, the best you'd get is a tweak to the wording.
    They have to stick by a member state (Eire) and they would have to get any change past all 27 governments.
    By 31st October? No Chance.

    What part of those statement do you disagree with?
    If the EU is 'standing by Ireland', that means if Ireland was prepared to find a creative solution to avoid a hard border and an indefinite backstop, the EU would accept.
    There is little or no political will in Ireland to drop the Backstop. Yes - no deal will hurt - but backing down in the face of what is perceived to be unreasonable British instranigence will not fly politically. We've seen over and over in recent years how identity beats economics and standing up to the Brits is a major part of the Irish sense of identity.

    There will be no deal. The argument that no-deal will be easy but the EU will budge to avoid no-deal cannot run forever, it has no logic. Either (1) the effects are negligible or (2) the effects are noticeably harmful. If (2) the harm will be (in decreasing levels) (i) damaging to the EU, (ii) devastating to the UK but (iii) catastrophic for those who have led the country down this path, notably the Tory Party. It's the call of those running the show now.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    HYUFD said:

    Tory England:

    ‘Shipping containers used to house homeless children’

    The Children's Commissioner for England says that as well as the 124,000 children officially homeless, a further 90,000 are estimated to be "sofa-surfing".

    Her report tells of families housed in repurposed shipping containers and office blocks, and whole families living in tiny spaces.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-49412835

    Even a converted shipping container at least puts a roof over their heads so they are not homeless
    Lol
    Stunning. I suppose the poor souls sleeping rough under a railway arch, or in a hostel, are not homeless because there's a roof over their heads.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Wrong about cancelling HS2 being an issue in West Midlands marginals. Only 26% of people in the West Midlands think HS2 should go ahead. See last month's YouGov poll for Central News. I write from a West Midlands marginal in the Black Country, from which it would still be (pretty typically) far quicker (and less expensive no doubt) to get from home to London using existing rail after HS2 is built, on the very rare occasions that it is necessary to make that journey.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,391
    HYUFD said:

    More in that Kantar poll:

    Which of the following scenarios do you favour most?
    Leave No Deal: 23
    Leave TM Deal: 9
    Leave but stay in SM/CU: 13
    Remain/Revoke A50: 33
    DK: 22

    Should the final deal be put to public vote:
    Yes: 52
    No: 29
    DK: 19

    How likely Leave by Oct 31?
    Net Likely: 46
    Net Unlikely: 35
    DK: 19

    No Deal at just 23%.

    If BoZo does this then the Tories are crippled for a generation.

    Yep - I think he'll be the last Tory PM to win a national election in my lifetime.

    Even Labour after 1979 got back 18 years later as did the Tories 13 years after 1997

    Unless you are over 60 it is unlikely you will fail to see another Tory PM win a general election after Boris' triumph in the autumn
    With his parliamentary majority of 240 he could change the electoral system to ensure only people called Boris Johnson could ever be elected to high office.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The interesting thing about HS2, which is a bit short of friends, is how much Andy Burnham supports it. He clearly recognises that better connections between London and Manchester would be good for Manchester. It's a problem faced by most of the UK including Edinburgh: do you try to compete with London or do you try and serve it? The latter looks much the safer course.

    From a Dundee perspective there is currently 3 flights a day from Dundee to London City up for tender. There may be no takers but it would certainly help.

    The ticket prices for a lot of regional airports are subsidised by the EU regional airports fund. There must be uncertainty now as to whether this will be replaced by support from the Gvt going forward.
    We had such a service for a while and it was really useful but the airline couldn't make a go of it because of the high landing charges (and charges for being on the ground) at City. It is one of the many reasons that anyone not in the west of London is very anxious we get on with the Heathrow extension.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490

    HYUFD said:

    And only 33% want revoke and Remain.

    My first choice is a Deal but I prefer No Deal to Revoke and Remain

    I am sure you do. My first choice is Leave with SU and CU, followed by Revoke and Remain, followed by May's Deal. It all goes to show just how non-binary Leaving the EU actually is and how many people are going to be disappointed come November.

    And by the same token how many people will be partially pleased.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    I'm not saying that there is no a discrepancy there but I think you overstate it. Boris's position, as I understand it, is not that no deal won't be a problem but that we can cope. He remains clear that he wants a deal, just not the deal that is on the table which May negotiated.

    The issue is whether the EU also regards a deal as optimal, is even capable of renegotiating at this point and is willing to do so to achieve that deal. I think the importance of the second point is being somewhat undersold here, not least with the collapse of the Italian government. How do the mechanics of the EU allow a material change to the deal even if they were so minded?

    If No Deal is manageable for the UK it will be more than manageable for the EU. If it is not manageable for the UK, then the UK will come back for a deal. Either way works for the EU.

    The key difference is between manageable and optimal. No deal Brexit is manageable but it is not optimal. And that applies to both parties.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    The EU CAN'T make any concessions worth having, the best you'd get is a tweak to the wording.
    They have to stick by a member state (Eire) and they would have to get any change past all 27 governments.
    By 31st October? No Chance.

    What part of those statement do you disagree with?
    I note that you don't disagree with anything that Johnson said. The best you can do is by implication to dismiss the relevance of the second part of his statement, on the grounds that having asked for and been given the earth you believe that the EU will never make concessions on anything, so that whether or not the EU believes the UK will follow through can have no effect on its negotiating stance. I disagree with your belief.

    I disagree with you that the EU can't renegotiate. It's more a case of won't. The land border in Ireland means nothing to Brussels other than an excuse to say no. Up to now negotiations have been governed by an EU expectation that it can either persuade the UK to go back on the referendum decision (a long established pattern of EU behaviour towards inconvenient referenda) or agree to terms that still give the EU everything it could want from UK membership and more, remembering that May's agreement settled very little other than to strengthen the EU's hand in the detailed negotiations that would follow.

    Johnson is right that there is no prospect of the UK being offered anything while the EU still holds out the hope that we could change our minds. If the UK leaves, then after 31st October that hope will have gone. I fully expect that if the UK leaves on 31st October, there will be an agreement or series of agreements on trade put in place over the months to follow, on better terms than the abject terms offered so far in order to persuade us to change our minds.
    The things that people "fully expect" to happen have a rather poor track record to date. However taking you at your word, how many agreements at UK/EUCO level do you fully expect to see signed (not even ratified by the Parliaments, just signed) by December 31st 2020? Bear in mind that arrangements unilaterally adopted by the UK, or unilaterally imposed by the EU, are not agreements.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    I'm not saying that there is no a discrepancy there but I think you overstate it. Boris's position, as I understand it, is not that no deal won't be a problem but that we can cope. He remains clear that he wants a deal, just not the deal that is on the table which May negotiated.

    The issue is whether the EU also regards a deal as optimal, is even capable of renegotiating at this point and is willing to do so to achieve that deal. I think the importance of the second point is being somewhat undersold here, not least with the collapse of the Italian government. How do the mechanics of the EU allow a material change to the deal even if they were so minded?

    If No Deal is manageable for the UK it will be more than manageable for the EU. If it is not manageable for the UK, then the UK will come back for a deal. Either way works for the EU.

    If No Deal exit is manageable for the UK other EU nations might ultimately follow suit

    I doubt it. Even if it is manageable, UK citizens and businesses will still be far less free than they are now, while the UK as a whole will be poorer and entirely dependent on the goodwill of others in term sof international trade.

    Plus polling in most EU nations have an absolutely mahoosive majority for remaining. The UK's humiliating behaviour has sealed that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    I'm not saying that there is no a discrepancy there but I think you overstate it. Boris's position, as I understand it, is not that no deal won't be a problem but that we can cope. He remains clear that he wants a deal, just not the deal that is on the table which May negotiated.

    The issue is whether the EU also regards a deal as optimal, is even capable of renegotiating at this point and is willing to do so to achieve that deal. I think the importance of the second point is being somewhat undersold here, not least with the collapse of the Italian government. How do the mechanics of the EU allow a material change to the deal even if they were so minded?

    If No Deal is manageable for the UK it will be more than manageable for the EU. If it is not manageable for the UK, then the UK will come back for a deal. Either way works for the EU.

    If No Deal exit is manageable for the UK other EU nations might ultimately follow suit

    I doubt it. Even if it is manageable, UK citizens and businesses will still be far less free than they are now, while the UK as a whole will be poorer and entirely dependent on the goodwill of others in term sof international trade.

    In international trade we can only currently agree what 26 other EU nations agree
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    Tory England:

    ‘Shipping containers used to house homeless children’

    The Children's Commissioner for England says that as well as the 124,000 children officially homeless, a further 90,000 are estimated to be "sofa-surfing".

    Her report tells of families housed in repurposed shipping containers and office blocks, and whole families living in tiny spaces.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-49412835

    Even a converted shipping container at least puts a roof over their heads so they are not homeless
    Even by the standards of the Tory Party that is a criminally heartless comment.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,758
    HYUFD said:
    A result like this is not impossible. The recent polling which gives the Brexit Party in the region of 14% is clearly nonsense - the Boris bandwagon in the event of an early election will crush them down to a deposit-losing level.

    I also think assumptions of another "Magic Grandpa" resurrection on Corbyn's behalf are misplaced. Rightly or wrongly Boris is going to have a far more resonant and positive message with the marginals in the North Midlands etc than Theresa May ever had. Labour has no message, and the LibDem message - let's jump back into bed with the EU, while reasonable, is one that it is hard for more than a small minority to get excited about.

    All seems to be going according to the Cummings game-plan.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    HYUFD said:

    Tory England:

    ‘Shipping containers used to house homeless children’

    The Children's Commissioner for England says that as well as the 124,000 children officially homeless, a further 90,000 are estimated to be "sofa-surfing".

    Her report tells of families housed in repurposed shipping containers and office blocks, and whole families living in tiny spaces.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-49412835

    Even a converted shipping container at least puts a roof over their heads so they are not homeless
    You do realise the word is "Home"-less and not "Roof"-less.

    People sleeping rough is just the tip of the iceberg, the bit that people see. There are many people who have no proper home but are not sleeping rough, and they often go unseen under the surface.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019
    Anorak said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tory England:

    ‘Shipping containers used to house homeless children’

    The Children's Commissioner for England says that as well as the 124,000 children officially homeless, a further 90,000 are estimated to be "sofa-surfing".

    Her report tells of families housed in repurposed shipping containers and office blocks, and whole families living in tiny spaces.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-49412835

    Even a converted shipping container at least puts a roof over their heads so they are not homeless
    Lol
    Stunning. I suppose the poor souls sleeping rough under a railway arch, or in a hostel, are not homeless because there's a roof over their heads.
    As long as you are in a hostel you are not technically homeless no as you have shelter with a roof and walls, you may not have permanent accommodation but that is a different matter
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    geoffw said:

    More polls like this could help get a renegotiated WA. At least I hope so.

    Is that a squadron of pigs flying by?
    "One thing that slightly complicates the picture is that our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit. As long as they think there's a possibility that parliament will block Brexit, they're unlikely to be minded to make the concessions that we need, so it's going to take a bit of patience."

    What part of that statement do you disagree with?
    I disagree with "our EU friends still clearly think that there is a possibility that parliament will block Brexit". They speak fluent English and can read our papers. There is no evidence to support your assertion here. Its all "if we are firmer they will budge" bollocks. They accept we are leaving and know if there is no deal then it will hurt us more than them. Or it won't hurt at all - which runs both ways.
    That last is the critical bit. The government says no deal won't be a problem and at the same time that the EU will cave in to avoid no deal.
    I'm not saying that there is no a discrepancy there but I think you overstate it. Boris's position, as I understand it, is not that no deal won't be a problem but that we can cope. He remains clear that he wants a deal, just not the deal that is on the table which May negotiated.

    The issue is whether the EU also regards a deal as optimal, is even capable of renegotiating at this point and is willing to do so to achieve that deal. I think the importance of the second point is being somewhat undersold here, not least with the collapse of the Italian government. How do the mechanics of the EU allow a material change to the deal even if they were so minded?

    If No Deal is manageable for the UK it will be more than manageable for the EU. If it is not manageable for the UK, then the UK will come back for a deal. Either way works for the EU.

    If No Deal exit is manageable for the UK other EU nations might ultimately follow suit
    Yes, all over Europe politicians are looking at the clusterfuck that is Brexit, and thinking "I want a piece of that!"
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    HYUFD said:

    Anorak said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tory England:

    ‘Shipping containers used to house homeless children’

    The Children's Commissioner for England says that as well as the 124,000 children officially homeless, a further 90,000 are estimated to be "sofa-surfing".

    Her report tells of families housed in repurposed shipping containers and office blocks, and whole families living in tiny spaces.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-49412835

    Even a converted shipping container at least puts a roof over their heads so they are not homeless
    Lol
    Stunning. I suppose the poor souls sleeping rough under a railway arch, or in a hostel, are not homeless because there's a roof over their heads.
    As long as you are in a hostel you are not technically homeless no as you have shelter, you may not have permanent accommodation but that is a different matter
    A hostel is not a home!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    More in that Kantar poll:

    Which of the following scenarios do you favour most?
    Leave No Deal: 23
    Leave TM Deal: 9
    Leave but stay in SM/CU: 13
    Remain/Revoke A50: 33
    DK: 22

    Should the final deal be put to public vote:
    Yes: 52
    No: 29
    DK: 19

    How likely Leave by Oct 31?
    Net Likely: 46
    Net Unlikely: 35
    DK: 19

    No Deal at just 23%.

    If BoZo does this then the Tories are crippled for a generation.

    Yep - I think he'll be the last Tory PM to win a national election in my lifetime.

    Surely it depends what actually happens in the event of No Deal?

    The bar has been set very, very, very high for complete and total catastrophe

    Anything short of End Of Days and the sky falling in won't be viewed as being too bad in the circumstances? ;)
    We live in a country where KFC not getting a delivery results in 999 calls.

    Yepp. How many people would be willing or capable to Dig for Victory these days?
    We're not at war.
  • HS2 is not an investment in the North. If you want to invest in the North then build a proper mainline cross country service linking the major cities of the North.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    HYUFD said:

    Anorak said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tory England:

    ‘Shipping containers used to house homeless children’

    The Children's Commissioner for England says that as well as the 124,000 children officially homeless, a further 90,000 are estimated to be "sofa-surfing".

    Her report tells of families housed in repurposed shipping containers and office blocks, and whole families living in tiny spaces.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-49412835

    Even a converted shipping container at least puts a roof over their heads so they are not homeless
    Lol
    Stunning. I suppose the poor souls sleeping rough under a railway arch, or in a hostel, are not homeless because there's a roof over their heads.
    As long as you are in a hostel you are not technically homeless no as you have shelter with a roof and walls, you may not have permanent accommodation but that is a different matter
    Jesus H Christ. I give up. You win. Well done. Is it time for lunch?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The interesting thing about HS2, which is a bit short of friends, is how much Andy Burnham supports it. He clearly recognises that better connections between London and Manchester would be good for Manchester. It's a problem faced by most of the UK including Edinburgh: do you try to compete with London or do you try and serve it? The latter looks much the safer course.

    From a Dundee perspective there is currently 3 flights a day from Dundee to London City up for tender. There may be no takers but it would certainly help.

    The ticket prices for a lot of regional airports are subsidised by the EU regional airports fund. There must be uncertainty now as to whether this will be replaced by support from the Gvt going forward.
    We had such a service for a while and it was really useful but the airline couldn't make a go of it because of the high landing charges (and charges for being on the ground) at City. It is one of the many reasons that anyone not in the west of London is very anxious we get on with the Heathrow extension.
    Really? Given a choice of airports give me Amsterdam any day..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anorak said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tory England:

    ‘Shipping containers used to house homeless children’

    The Children's Commissioner for England says that as well as the 124,000 children officially homeless, a further 90,000 are estimated to be "sofa-surfing".

    Her report tells of families housed in repurposed shipping containers and office blocks, and whole families living in tiny spaces.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-49412835

    Even a converted shipping container at least puts a roof over their heads so they are not homeless
    Lol
    Stunning. I suppose the poor souls sleeping rough under a railway arch, or in a hostel, are not homeless because there's a roof over their heads.
    As long as you are in a hostel you are not technically homeless no as you have shelter, you may not have permanent accommodation but that is a different matter
    A hostel is not a home!
    Nor is a flat on some measures, they are accommodation though
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tory England:

    ‘Shipping containers used to house homeless children’

    The Children's Commissioner for England says that as well as the 124,000 children officially homeless, a further 90,000 are estimated to be "sofa-surfing".

    Her report tells of families housed in repurposed shipping containers and office blocks, and whole families living in tiny spaces.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-49412835

    Even a converted shipping container at least puts a roof over their heads so they are not homeless
    Even by the standards of the Tory Party that is a criminally heartless comment.
    No it isn't, as sleeping in a converted shipping container with a bed and room is better than sleeping on the streets.


    Once again action with the Tories, whinging with Labour
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