I can’t see anything other than a ‘no deal’ Brexit now and then weaselly Leavers trying to blame Remainers for the chaos and so the shit-show will roll on.
Fewer than half of people want to leave now according to most polls. There are presumably people who want to leave but not if it means bypassing parliament. Maybe not many, but there will be some Leavers who believe in constitutional democracy.
So does that mean there are significant numbers of people who believe we shouldn't leave, but think parliament should be bypassed anyway? Really?
I think your first sentence is incorrect. I think that fewer than half think Brexit is right, not that fewer than half want to leave.
The distinction being that there are yes people who believe that Brexit is wrong but still want to do it anyway, to respect the referendum result. Our own HYUFD being an example of this.
The majority of voters would have said parliament was out of touch with the public since the dawn of polling. Nothing to get excited about in these numbers.
Comres is the second poll, along with Opinium to show an increase in the Con+BXP block at the expense of the Lab+LD+Green block. This might be significant.
I can’t see anything other than a ‘no deal’ Brexit now and then weaselly Leavers trying to blame Remainers for the chaos and so the shit-show will roll on.
Credit where credit's due. If it wasn't for Remainers rejecting the deal, leaving without one wouldn't have been possible.
Fewer than half of people want to leave now according to most polls. There are presumably people who want to leave but not if it means bypassing parliament. Maybe not many, but there will be some Leavers who believe in constitutional democracy.
So does that mean there are significant numbers of people who believe we shouldn't leave, but think parliament should be bypassed anyway? Really?
I think your first sentence is incorrect. I think that fewer than half think Brexit is right, not that fewer than half want to leave.
The distinction being that there are yes people who believe that Brexit is wrong but still want to do it anyway, to respect the referendum result. Our own HYUFD being an example of this.
@HYUFD will believe anything if he thought it is of benefit to the Conservative Party.
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Horribly true...
Then do something. Accept we are leaving - and have a word with Brussels that No Deal is a really, really shite outcome for all. Move on the backstop.... Because No Deal delivers the outcome they say has to be avoided.
I can’t see anything other than a ‘no deal’ Brexit now and then weaselly Leavers trying to blame Remainers for the chaos and so the shit-show will roll on.
Credit where credit's due. If it wasn't for Remainers rejecting the deal, leaving without one wouldn't have been possible.
You disagree with that claim?
Remainers rejecting the deal is a contributing factor of course but to claim that they are directly responsible is laughable.
Boris and his clowns will get the blame and rightly so.
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Horribly true...
Then do something. Accept we are leaving - and have a word with Brussels that No Deal is a really, really shite outcome for all. Move on the backstop.... Because No Deal delivers the outcome they say has to be avoided.
What we are seeing here is the I Want Brexit Over With Party showing its considerable support. As I remarked this morning, people are bored and tired with Brexit, with the constant reporting of it day in and day out and the unique dominance it has enjoyed over public discourse since 2016.
Everything was and is about Brexit - we've argued about it on here every day for more than three and a half years. We frame every poll, every election on the basis of how an area voted on 23/6/16.
We carry the Referendum like a millstone round our necks - it drags us back, holds us down and wearies us.
A lot of people now have Brexit fatigue - they claim not to care about the consequences of leaving without a WA (we'll see how long that lasts) and indeed that's not important either. They simply want it done and over with.
Those who think however IF there are problems that people will suddenly embrace the EU and want to return are mistaken. Johnson and the Government will be blamed (rightly) for any problems but there will definitely be no clamour to rejoin for a decade or more and parties like the LDs should use the post-Brexit period to argue how they would run the country better not whether we were right or wrong to leave the EU.
I can’t see anything other than a ‘no deal’ Brexit now and then weaselly Leavers trying to blame Remainers for the chaos and so the shit-show will roll on.
Credit where credit's due. If it wasn't for Remainers rejecting the deal, leaving without one wouldn't have been possible.
You disagree with that claim?
Remainers rejecting the deal is a contributing factor of course but to claim that they are directly responsible is laughable.
Boris and his clowns will get the blame and rightly so.
Boris will get the credit yes, but Remainers caused this.
Cause and credit are two different issues. If it wasn't for Remainers voting en-mass to reject the deal, the deal would have been passed and no deal would have been impossible. Remainers had 3 chances to take no deal permanently off the table and rejected it every time. Considering the Conservatives were in office, the consequences of doing so were highly predictable as the ERG foresaw. The ERG have played a blinder, everyone else . . . not so much.
Fewer than half of people want to leave now according to most polls. There are presumably people who want to leave but not if it means bypassing parliament. Maybe not many, but there will be some Leavers who believe in constitutional democracy.
So does that mean there are significant numbers of people who believe we shouldn't leave, but think parliament should be bypassed anyway? Really?
I think your first sentence is incorrect. I think that fewer than half think Brexit is right, not that fewer than half want to leave.
The distinction being that there are yes people who believe that Brexit is wrong but still want to do it anyway, to respect the referendum result. Our own HYUFD being an example of this.
John Curtice runs poll trackers on this. There's virtually no difference at any one time between the the results for "In hindsight was three vote to leave a mistake / correct?", "If there's another referendum, how would you vote?" "Should the UK leave or remain in the EU?"
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
I can’t see anything other than a ‘no deal’ Brexit now and then weaselly Leavers trying to blame Remainers for the chaos and so the shit-show will roll on.
Credit where credit's due. If it wasn't for Remainers rejecting the deal, leaving without one wouldn't have been possible.
You disagree with that claim?
Remainers rejecting the deal is a contributing factor of course but to claim that they are directly responsible is laughable.
Boris and his clowns will get the blame and rightly so.
Boris will get the credit yes, but Remainers caused this.
Cause and credit are two different issues. If it wasn't for Remainers voting en-mass to reject the deal, the deal would have been passed and no deal would have been impossible. Remainers had 3 chances to take no deal permanently off the table and rejected it every time. Considering the Conservatives were in office, the consequences of doing so were highly predictable as the ERG foresaw. The ERG have played a blinder, everyone else . . . not so much.
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Horribly true...
Then do something. Accept we are leaving - and have a word with Brussels that No Deal is a really, really shite outcome for all. Move on the backstop.... Because No Deal delivers the outcome they say has to be avoided.
But the EU is not interested in avoiding a shitty outcome. As long as it is much shittier for us than for them - as it inevitably will be - their key objective - deterring other from leaving - will have been achieved.
Wow. That poll about proroguing parliament is chilling. Over half the country would be happy to have a man appointed by a handful of golf-club bores hold sway over their own elected representatives. Our old Weimar-Republic-couldn't-happen-here stuff has taken a battering.
I can’t see anything other than a ‘no deal’ Brexit now and then weaselly Leavers trying to blame Remainers for the chaos and so the shit-show will roll on.
Credit where credit's due. If it wasn't for Remainers rejecting the deal, leaving without one wouldn't have been possible.
You disagree with that claim?
Everyone has their part to play in this tragedy and farce.
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Horribly true...
Then do something. Accept we are leaving - and have a word with Brussels that No Deal is a really, really shite outcome for all. Move on the backstop.... Because No Deal delivers the outcome they say has to be avoided.
But the EU is not interested in avoiding a shitty outcome. As long as it is much shittier for us than for them - as it inevitably will be - their key objective - deterring other from leaving - will have been achieved.
So people are being kept in line by fear and coercion? Well that’s going to end well isn’t it? Why exactly do we want to be the member of a club that is so scared of members leaving or so unsure if its own attraction?
I think if Johnson can somehow engineer a May type deal that's his best chance. Faragists will howl, but he can claim he did deliver Brexit and then bank the transition period of minimum change. No Deal will be very unstable and will go on forever. A fatal combination I suspect.
@stodge people genuinely believe that if a ‘no deal’ Brexit happens Brexit will be over and everything will continue to go on just as it is now.
The level of ignorance is astonishing.
The Brexit supporting media are driving the public toward the cliff edge. Until the Brexit supporting media stop their propoganda people will be led and taken for fools...
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Horribly true...
Then do something. Accept we are leaving - and have a word with Brussels that No Deal is a really, really shite outcome for all. Move on the backstop.... Because No Deal delivers the outcome they say has to be avoided.
But the EU is not interested in avoiding a shitty outcome. As long as it is much shittier for us than for them - as it inevitably will be - their key objective - deterring other from leaving - will have been achieved.
So people are being kept in line by fear and coercion? Well that’s going to end well isn’t it? Why exactly do we want to be the member of a club that is so scared of members leaving or so unsure if it’s own attraction?
No fear and coercion, just the obvious loss that leaving the club means that you cannot use the facilities any more, or have a say in how it is run. If that is a punishment, it is one that we chose, not imposed by others.
Wow. That poll about proroguing parliament is chilling. Over half the country would be happy to have a man appointed by a handful of golf-club bores hold sway over their own elected representatives. Our old Weimar-Republic-couldn't-happen-here stuff has taken a battering.
It couldn’t have got that high without the 89% not trusting MPs on Brexit.
Boris is going over parliament’s head to the voters - and they are accepting of that because they see MPs as a bunch of utter turds for failing to progress the referendum result.
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Horribly true...
Then do something. Accept we are leaving - and have a word with Brussels that No Deal is a really, really shite outcome for all. Move on the backstop.... Because No Deal delivers the outcome they say has to be avoided.
But the EU is not interested in avoiding a shitty outcome. As long as it is much shittier for us than for them - as it inevitably will be - their key objective - deterring other from leaving - will have been achieved.
High stakes gamble. At the moment people who believe Brexit is a bad idea or believe Single Market membership is valuable are convinced they are right.
Putting it to the test with a hard Brexit could be an interesting case study. If in a few years Spain or Greece or others are still struggling but a free from Brussels Britain is surprising people by doing well we could lead the path for others to follow.
@stodge people genuinely believe that if a ‘no deal’ Brexit happens Brexit will be over and everything will continue to go on just as it is now.
The level of ignorance is astonishing.
The Brexit supporting media are driving the public toward the cliff edge. Until the Brexit supporting media stop their propoganda people will be led and taken for fools...
Or maybe we actually want to leave? If only a proper vote had been carried out. Oh it has....
Wow. That poll about proroguing parliament is chilling. Over half the country would be happy to have a man appointed by a handful of golf-club bores hold sway over their own elected representatives. Our old Weimar-Republic-couldn't-happen-here stuff has taken a battering.
Oh just piss off with your wanky rhetoric. Where was all your hand-wringing about democracy when Brown had a fucking coronation as the only nominated candidate to take over from Blair? That was a hell of a lot less democratic than 160,000 people deciding our PM.
Wow. That poll about proroguing parliament is chilling. Over half the country would be happy to have a man appointed by a handful of golf-club bores hold sway over their own elected representatives. Our old Weimar-Republic-couldn't-happen-here stuff has taken a battering.
It couldn’t have got that high without the 88% not trusting MPs in Brexit.
Boris is going over parliament’s head to the voters - and they are accepting of that because they see MPs as a bunch of utter turds for failing to progress the referendum result.
You getting it yet ?
It is the Brexit supporting media driving this not Boris. He is just a pawn in the game!
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Horribly true...
Then do something. Accept we are leaving - and have a word with Brussels that No Deal is a really, really shite outcome for all. Move on the backstop.... Because No Deal delivers the outcome they say has to be avoided.
But the EU is not interested in avoiding a shitty outcome. As long as it is much shittier for us than for them - as it inevitably will be - their key objective - deterring other from leaving - will have been achieved.
So people are being kept in line by fear and coercion? Well that’s going to end well isn’t it? Why exactly do we want to be the member of a club that is so scared of members leaving or so unsure if it’s own attraction?
No fear and coercion, just the obvious loss that leaving the club means that you cannot use the facilities any more, or have a say in how it is run. If that is a punishment, it is one that we chose, not imposed by others.
Sorry the balance sheet is not just “loss”. There are losses sure, but for some of us outweighed by other factors.
Wow. That poll about proroguing parliament is chilling. Over half the country would be happy to have a man appointed by a handful of golf-club bores hold sway over their own elected representatives. Our old Weimar-Republic-couldn't-happen-here stuff has taken a battering.
Oh just piss off with your wanky rhetoric. Where was all your hand-wringing about democracy when Brown had a fucking coronation as the only nominated candidate to take over from Blair? That was a hell of a lot less democratic than 160,000 people deciding our PM.
Or when Brown turned up late away from the cameras to sign Lisbon when his manifesto had pledged a referendum?
Had that not happened we likely would never have left.
Putting it to the test with a hard Brexit could be an interesting case study. If in a few years Spain or Greece or others are still struggling but a free from Brussels Britain is surprising people by doing well we could lead the path for others to follow.
I say this as a Leaver who still supports Leave (but obviously not just crashing out because we've screwed up leaving on time with a deal). No country is going to look at what the UK has done since the referendum and say "we should do that".
Putting it to the test with a hard Brexit could be an interesting case study. If in a few years Spain or Greece or others are still struggling but a free from Brussels Britain is surprising people by doing well we could lead the path for others to follow.
I say this as a Leaver who still supports Leave (but obviously not just crashing out because we've screwed up leaving with a deal on time). No country is going to look at what the UK has done since the referendum and say "we should do that".
They all said that about Thacterism during the 80s until they saw what a roaring success it was.
They will be queuing up for a bit of post Brexit low tax global outlook - probably without the crap Mrs May 3 year malingering.
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Horribly true...
Then do something. Accept we are leaving - and have a word with Brussels that No Deal is a really, really shite outcome for all. Move on the backstop.... Because No Deal delivers the outcome they say has to be avoided.
But the EU is not interested in avoiding a shitty outcome. As long as it is much shittier for us than for them - as it inevitably will be - their key objective - deterring other from leaving - will have been achieved.
High stakes gamble. At the moment people who believe Brexit is a bad idea or believe Single Market membership is valuable are convinced they are right.
Putting it to the test with a hard Brexit could be an interesting case study. If in a few years Spain or Greece or others are still struggling but a free from Brussels Britain is surprising people by doing well we could lead the path for others to follow.
Wow. That poll about proroguing parliament is chilling. Over half the country would be happy to have a man appointed by a handful of golf-club bores hold sway over their own elected representatives. Our old Weimar-Republic-couldn't-happen-here stuff has taken a battering.
Oh just piss off with your wanky rhetoric. Where was all your hand-wringing about democracy when Brown had a fucking coronation as the only nominated candidate to take over from Blair? That was a hell of a lot less democratic than 160,000 people deciding our PM.
Or when Brown turned up late away from the cameras to sign Lisbon when his manifesto had pledged a referendum?
Had that not happened we likely would never have left.
Amen to that. That was the moment. We were promised a say on giving away vetos, and it was blatantly taken away. The scales fell from my eyes at that point. Cameron had to come back with something really meaningful after that. They sent him away with a flea in his ear.
After that I’d have walked across glass to vote to leave. And would again.
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
Wow. That poll about proroguing parliament is chilling. Over half the country would be happy to have a man appointed by a handful of golf-club bores hold sway over their own elected representatives. Our old Weimar-Republic-couldn't-happen-here stuff has taken a battering.
88% huh ? So some Liberal Democrats, Greens, SNPers, PCer and all Labour voters support proroguing ? Otherwise, you cannot get 88%.
Putting it to the test with a hard Brexit could be an interesting case study. If in a few years Spain or Greece or others are still struggling but a free from Brussels Britain is surprising people by doing well we could lead the path for others to follow.
I say this as a Leaver who still supports Leave (but obviously not just crashing out because we've screwed up leaving on time with a deal). No country is going to look at what the UK has done since the referendum and say "we should do that".
Depends - if we now have a team prepared to go full Singapore-off-mainland-Europe,.....
Putting it to the test with a hard Brexit could be an interesting case study. If in a few years Spain or Greece or others are still struggling but a free from Brussels Britain is surprising people by doing well we could lead the path for others to follow.
I say this as a Leaver who still supports Leave (but obviously not just crashing out because we've screwed up leaving with a deal on time). No country is going to look at what the UK has done since the referendum and say "we should do that".
Not yet.
Once we've left the melodrama of how we left will quickly be history and how well we do afterwards will matter most.
If the UK does well, if Project Fear is shown to be a nonsense it could put a rocket under other sceptics across the continent.
Especially since human nature mean people will think they can do it better. "Look how the EU tried and failed to hold back Britain. We have nothing to be afraid of and we can do it better than the Brits."
Wow. That poll about proroguing parliament is chilling. Over half the country would be happy to have a man appointed by a handful of golf-club bores hold sway over their own elected representatives. Our old Weimar-Republic-couldn't-happen-here stuff has taken a battering.
Oh just piss off with your wanky rhetoric. Where was all your hand-wringing about democracy when Brown had a fucking coronation as the only nominated candidate to take over from Blair? That was a hell of a lot less democratic than 160,000 people deciding our PM.
Not really. Being chosen by a few thousand party members, especially a group as unrepresentative of the general public as Tory Party members, is no better than a coronation. If you think Johnson has a legitimacy that Brown or May didn't have after they became PM then you are deluded.
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
Hence why the govt is actually doing some preparation- Mrs Mays efforts were so pathetic that nobody believed she was serious. And we all wasted 3 years.
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
@stodge people genuinely believe that if a ‘no deal’ Brexit happens Brexit will be over and everything will continue to go on just as it is now.
The level of ignorance is astonishing.
The Brexit supporting media are driving the public toward the cliff edge. Until the Brexit supporting media stop their propoganda people will be led and taken for fools...
Or maybe we actually want to leave? If only a proper vote had been carried out. Oh it has....
I have observed politics long enough to see exactly what is going on. The people and political party change but the way the media operate remains the same. The Brexit supporting media are trying everything in an attempt to lead public opinion into supporting No Deal. Some of us do not fall for BS propogated at the moment and wonder how people can be so guilible...
Putting it to the test with a hard Brexit could be an interesting case study. If in a few years Spain or Greece or others are still struggling but a free from Brussels Britain is surprising people by doing well we could lead the path for others to follow.
I say this as a Leaver who still supports Leave (but obviously not just crashing out because we've screwed up leaving on time with a deal). No country is going to look at what the UK has done since the referendum and say "we should do that".
Depends - if we now have a team prepared to go full Singapore-off-mainland-Europe,.....
I don't know what you are seeing in the team that makes you think they could pull off something like that, never mind if it has popular support.
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
They DO have the inclination and the desire to blink. As individual nations.They need a deal, as Europe teeters on the edge of recession, and another eurozone crisis. They need a good, mutually beneficial deal. Why die on a hill for a backstop they don't actually like!?
The problem is the EU as a PROJECT cannot sustain a decent deal. as it shows it maybe profits a nation to quit the EU.
A club which can only exist by menacing members who want to leave is not fit for purpose. Hence, Brexit. The appalling difficulty of Brexit proves the absolute necessity of Brexit.
I think if Johnson can somehow engineer a May type deal that's his best chance. Faragists will howl, but he can claim he did deliver Brexit and then bank the transition period of minimum change. No Deal will be very unstable and will go on forever. A fatal combination I suspect.
Surely if it goes on for ever then by definition it is stable?
I think if Johnson can somehow engineer a May type deal that's his best chance. Faragists will howl, but he can claim he did deliver Brexit and then bank the transition period of minimum change. No Deal will be very unstable and will go on forever. A fatal combination I suspect.
Surely if it goes on for ever then by definition it is stable?
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Every day that goes by makes actually leaving less likely. Leavers should have backed May's deal when they had the chance.
You really aren't reading the runes, are you?
We are out. Gone. Cheerio, EU.
Yes. We are. That's my reading. We're OUT.
Assume Brace Position.
Mine too. The momentum behind October 31 is now becoming irresistible. The question arises what will be the reaction come November? My guess is there will be plenty surprised not everything is the same. And plenty surprised that there is still much to do.
@stodge people genuinely believe that if a ‘no deal’ Brexit happens Brexit will be over and everything will continue to go on just as it is now.
The level of ignorance is astonishing.
The Brexit supporting media are driving the public toward the cliff edge. Until the Brexit supporting media stop their propoganda people will be led and taken for fools...
Or maybe we actually want to leave? If only a proper vote had been carried out. Oh it has....
I have observed politics long enough to see exactly what is going on. The people and political party change but the way the media operate remains the same. The Brexit supporting media are trying everything in an attempt to lead public opinion into supporting No Deal. Some of us do not fall for BS propogated at the moment and wonder how people can be so guilible...
Maybe some of us have been uneasy about the whole thing for as long as we can remember but put up with it. But then a Rubicon was crossed ( Lisbon for me sans referendum) after which we believe that leave is existential. Again some of us were prepared to do a “Michael Collins” and do it in stages, compromise and accept May’s deal and go from there. But then the likes of Grieve and others decided to use every arcane trick they could find in ancient scrolls to deny the biggest vote ever held in this country. So I have been forced from my compromise position by these antics to chose: stay or no deal. So it’s no deal.
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
They DO have the inclination and the desire to blink. As individual nations.They need a deal, as Europe teeters on the edge of recession, and another eurozone crisis. They need a good, mutually beneficial deal. Why die on a hill for a backstop they don't actually like!?
The problem is the EU as a PROJECT cannot sustain a decent deal. as it shows it maybe profits a nation to quit the EU.
A club which can only exist by menacing members who want to leave is not fit for purpose. Hence, Brexit. The appalling difficulty of Brexit proves the absolute necessity of Brexit.
Nope.
The loss for the UK is self inflicted, not a punishment. How can a good thing be a punishment?
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
No. But I think Johnson is working on the assumption that they will.
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
They DO have the inclination and the desire to blink. As individual nations.They need a deal, as Europe teeters on the edge of recession, and another eurozone crisis. They need a good, mutually beneficial deal. Why die on a hill for a backstop they don't actually like!?
The problem is the EU as a PROJECT cannot sustain a decent deal. as it shows it maybe profits a nation to quit the EU.
A club which can only exist by menacing members who want to leave is not fit for purpose. Hence, Brexit. The appalling difficulty of Brexit proves the absolute necessity of Brexit.
In what way were we "menaced"? You must have a shockingly low menace threshold.
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Horribly true...
Then do something. Accept we are leaving - and have a word with Brussels that No Deal is a really, really shite outcome for all. Move on the backstop.... Because No Deal delivers the outcome they say has to be avoided.
But the EU is not interested in avoiding a shitty outcome. As long as it is much shittier for us than for them - as it inevitably will be - their key objective - deterring other from leaving - will have been achieved.
High stakes gamble. At the moment people who believe Brexit is a bad idea or believe Single Market membership is valuable are convinced they are right.
Putting it to the test with a hard Brexit could be an interesting case study. If in a few years Spain or Greece or others are still struggling but a free from Brussels Britain is surprising people by doing well we could lead the path for others to follow.
That's quite correct. Britain's path will be its own, and it is quite possible we use this opportunity wisely.
There are major structural problems with the UK economy, such as an overreliance on consumption, consumer borrowing, the use of homes as a source of saving, our education system, a tax and benefits system that actively discourages work, and the like.
What we're getting is "be more optimistic" and a spending splurge. (Which will, of course, only make the UK economy more unbalanced.)
There are serious questions above and beyond Brexit, like how we pay for social care with an ageing population and worsening dependency ratios.
Yet I see no sign of seriousness. Or even awareness. I see a government - and an opposition - who think that promises and profligacy are the answer to every question.
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Every day that goes by makes actually leaving less likely. Leavers should have backed May's deal when they had the chance.
You really aren't reading the runes, are you?
We are out. Gone. Cheerio, EU.
Yes. We are. That's my reading. We're OUT.
Assume Brace Position.
Mine too. The momentum behind October 31 is now becoming irresistible. The question arises what will be the reaction come November? My guess is there will be plenty surprised not everything is the same. And plenty surprised that there is still much to do.
Yeah, I can buy that. If we leave most things will trundle on, some disasters foretold will be utter damp squibs, and the odd thing will bite us unexpectedly in the bum.
The sun will still rise and set though. We will stutter then move in much as before.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
Biased supposition projected as fact.
I don't know the EU's thinking (neither do you) but I would be prepared to hazard a guess that if we approach the 31st there will be immense pressure from many leaders to ensure there is a deal.
And I include Varadkar as the penny drops with him that the RoI will be gutted out in the event of no deal.
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Every day that goes by makes actually leaving less likely. Leavers should have backed May's deal when they had the chance.
You really aren't reading the runes, are you?
We are out. Gone. Cheerio, EU.
Yes. We are. That's my reading. We're OUT.
Assume Brace Position.
Mine too. The momentum behind October 31 is now becoming irresistible. The question arises what will be the reaction come November? My guess is there will be plenty surprised not everything is the same. And plenty surprised that there is still much to do.
Yep. Agreed.
I think Hard Brexit will be surprisingly painless short term, surprisingly painful medium term, and then it will be seen as inevitable and no-big-deal in the long term (10 years plus);
Who will benefit from that, politically, I really do not know. The EU will take a reputational hammering, for sure. Losing arguably its most influential member? Bad.
What a fuck up by a generation of idiot politicians, on both sides of the Channel.
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
No. But I think Johnson is working on the assumption that they will.
I don't think he is working on that assumption, not least because the timetable and legislative timetable for any fresh negotiations* require an extension.
Later on, and passim ad nauseam, the target of it went on to concern Ireland.
Oh. Maybe the Pelagian heresy, then?
I'm going to have to give you this, I think.
It was in fact the Norman Conquest of England. William asked the Pope to give his invasion papal sanction which the Pope - rather pissed off at the Saxons ignoring him and appointing their own bishops and archbishops - did. As a result, the Normans were entitled to march under Papal banners and it became the first Papally-sanctioned war, or 'crusade.'
It was part of a wider eleventh century move to centralise the structure of the Catholic Church, of which what we might call the 'classic' crusades against the Saracens played an important part.
Did they think Saxon Britannia wasn’t Christian enough? Not enough burning and drowning of pagans?
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
No. But I think Johnson is working on the assumption that they will.
@stodge people genuinely believe that if a ‘no deal’ Brexit happens Brexit will be over and everything will continue to go on just as it is now.
The level of ignorance is astonishing.
The Brexit supporting media are driving the public toward the cliff edge. Until the Brexit supporting media stop their propoganda people will be led and taken for fools...
Or maybe we actually want to leave? If only a proper vote had been carried out. Oh it has....
I have observed politics long enough to see exactly what is going on. The people and political party change but the way the media operate remains the same. The Brexit supporting media are trying everything in an attempt to lead public opinion into supporting No Deal. Some of us do not fall for BS propogated at the moment and wonder how people can be so guilible...
Maybe some of us have been uneasy about the whole thing for as long as we can remember but put up with it. But then a Rubicon was crossed ( Lisbon for me sans referendum) after which we believe that leave is existential. Again some of us were prepared to do a “Michael Collins” and do it in stages, compromise and accept May’s deal and go from there. But then the likes of Grieve and others decided to use every arcane trick they could find in ancient scrolls to deny the biggest vote ever held in this country. So I have been forced from my compromise position by these antics to chose: stay or no deal. So it’s no deal.
Well said!
31 October at 23:00 when we actually leave I hope for a second Blair, Brown and Grieves stop for a second and think to themselves "I brought this about". They won't but they should.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
Biased supposition projected as fact.
I don't know the EU's thinking (neither do you) but I would be prepared to hazard a guess that if we approach the 31st there will be immense pressure from many leaders to ensure there is a deal.
And I include Varadkar as the penny drops with him that the RoI will be gutted out in the event of no deal.
Ireland is not a quaint little poor outpost next to Britain you know. Its a strong, proud, and modern European country with the weight of the EU behind it.
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
They DO have the inclination and the desire to blink. As individual nations.They need a deal, as Europe teeters on the edge of recession, and another eurozone crisis. They need a good, mutually beneficial deal. Why die on a hill for a backstop they don't actually like!?
The problem is the EU as a PROJECT cannot sustain a decent deal. as it shows it maybe profits a nation to quit the EU.
A club which can only exist by menacing members who want to leave is not fit for purpose. Hence, Brexit. The appalling difficulty of Brexit proves the absolute necessity of Brexit.
In what way were we "menaced"? You must have a shockingly low menace threshold.
Because they actually said it, with menaces, you halfwit.
Michel Barnier, in 2016, in Le Point (in French, but translated for you):
“I shall have succeeded in my task if the final deal is so hard on the British that they’ll end up preferring to stay"
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
Biased supposition projected as fact.
I don't know the EU's thinking (neither do you) but I would be prepared to hazard a guess that if we approach the 31st there will be immense pressure from many leaders to ensure there is a deal.
And I include Varadkar as the penny drops with him that the RoI will be gutted out in the event of no deal.
I have my sources, and they have been correct so far on the events of the last 3 years.
Later on, and passim ad nauseam, the target of it went on to concern Ireland.
Oh. Maybe the Pelagian heresy, then?
I'm going to have to give you this, I think.
It was in fact the Norman Conquest of England. William asked the Pope to give his invasion papal sanction which the Pope - rather pissed off at the Saxons ignoring him and appointing their own bishops and archbishops - did. As a result, the Normans were entitled to march under Papal banners and it became the first Papally-sanctioned war, or 'crusade.'
It was part of a wider eleventh century move to centralise the structure of the Catholic Church, of which what we might call the 'classic' crusades against the Saracens played an important part.
Did they think Saxon Britannia wasn’t Christian enough? Not enough burning and drowning of pagans?
Ireland is not a quaint little poor outpost next to Britain you know. Its a strong, proud, and modern European country with the weight of the EU behind it.
You, my friend, are in for a huge surprise in the event of no deal.
@stodge people genuinely believe that if a ‘no deal’ Brexit happens Brexit will be over and everything will continue to go on just as it is now.
The level of ignorance is astonishing.
The Brexit supporting media are driving the public toward the cliff edge. Until the Brexit supporting media stop their propoganda people will be led and taken for fools...
Or maybe we actually want to leave? If only a proper vote had been carried out. Oh it has....
I have observed politics long enough to see exactly what is going on. The people and political party change but the way the media operate remains the same. The Brexit supporting media are trying everything in an attempt to lead public opinion into supporting No Deal. Some of us do not fall for BS propogated at the moment and wonder how people can be so guilible...
Maybe some of us have been uneasy about the whole thing for as long as we can remember but put up with it. But then a Rubicon was crossed ( Lisbon for me sans referendum) after which we believe that leave is existential. Again some of us were prepared to do a “Michael Collins” and do it in stages, compromise and accept May’s deal and go from there. But then the likes of Grieve and others decided to use every arcane trick they could find in ancient scrolls to deny the biggest vote ever held in this country. So I have been forced from my compromise position by these antics to chose: stay or no deal. So it’s no deal.
Well said!
31 October at 23:00 when we actually leave I hope for a second Blair, Brown and Grieves stop for a second and think to themselves "I brought this about". They won't but they should.
Hubris brings Nemesis.
It’s like your motivation is not the wanting of a brighter future but simply to ‘teach these guys a lesson’...
I'd like to know what Byronic thinks of the Hong Kong situation. Who would have believed a couple of years ago that HK airport would be closed to almost all flights due to protests?
Ireland is not a quaint little poor outpost next to Britain you know. Its a strong, proud, and modern European country with the weight of the EU behind it.
You, my friend, are in for a huge surprise in the event of no deal.
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Every day that goes by makes actually leaving less likely. Leavers should have backed May's deal when they had the chance.
You really aren't reading the runes, are you?
We are out. Gone. Cheerio, EU.
Yes. We are. That's my reading. We're OUT.
Assume Brace Position.
Mine too. The momentum behind October 31 is now becoming irresistible. The question arises what will be the reaction come November? My guess is there will be plenty surprised not everything is the same. And plenty surprised that there is still much to do.
When Christmas arrives and it’s obvious we still have 5+ years of negotiations to go through with an EU who is saying no to everything the reactions are going to be great
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Horribly true...
Then do something. Accept we are leaving - and have a word with Brussels that No Deal is a really, really shite outcome for all. Move on the backstop.... Because No Deal delivers the outcome they say has to be avoided.
But the EU is not interested in avoiding a shitty outcome. As long as it is much shittier for us than for them - as it inevitably will be - their key objective - deterring other from leaving - will have been achieved.
High stakes gamble. At the moment people who believe Brexit is a bad idea or believe Single Market membership is valuable are convinced they are right.
Putting it to the test with a hard Brexit could be an interesting case study. If in a few years Spain or Greece or others are still struggling but a free from Brussels Britain is surprising people by doing well we could lead the path for others to follow.
That's quite correct. Britain's path will be its own, and it is quite possible we use this opportunity wisely.
There are major structural problems with the UK economy, such as an overreliance on consumption, consumer borrowing, the use of homes as a source of saving, our education system, a tax and benefits system that actively discourages work, and the like.
What we're getting is "be more optimistic" and a spending splurge. (Which will, of course, only make the UK economy more unbalanced.)
There are serious questions above and beyond Brexit, like how we pay for social care with an ageing population and worsening dependency ratios.
Yet I see no sign of seriousness. Or even awareness. I see a government - and an opposition - who think that promises and profligacy are the answer to every question.
Its been nowt but slogans. That is at root of the problem. Singapore on Thames. What the holy heck does that actually mean? And what about the majority who live nowhere near the Thames? Errr, cut taxes and regulations, innit. Why? To what end? Are they an intrinsic good in themselves? Some say yes. Some have a belief in a mystical Laffer Curve that automatically waters the magic money trees. Meanwhile, most voters, especially Leavers, want more spending. Precious little evidence in government anyone has thought any of it through.
@stodge people genuinely believe that if a ‘no deal’ Brexit happens Brexit will be over and everything will continue to go on just as it is now.
The level of ignorance is astonishing.
The Brexit supporting media are driving the public toward the cliff edge. Until the Brexit supporting media stop their propoganda people will be led and taken for fools...
Or maybe we actually want to leave? If only a proper vote had been carried out. Oh it has....
I have observed politics long enough to see exactly what is going on. The people and political party change but the way the media operate remains the same. The Brexit supporting media are trying everything in an attempt to lead public opinion into supporting No Deal. Some of us do not fall for BS propogated at the moment and wonder how people can be so guilible...
Maybe some of us have been uneasy about the whole thing for as long as we can remember but put up with it. But then a Rubicon was crossed ( Lisbon for me sans referendum) after which we believe that leave is existential. Again some of us were prepared to do a “Michael Collins” and do it in stages, compromise and accept May’s deal and go from there. But then the likes of Grieve and others decided to use every arcane trick they could find in ancient scrolls to deny the biggest vote ever held in this country. So I have been forced from my compromise position by these antics to chose: stay or no deal. So it’s no deal.
Well said!
31 October at 23:00 when we actually leave I hope for a second Blair, Brown and Grieves stop for a second and think to themselves "I brought this about". They won't but they should.
Hubris brings Nemesis.
It’s like your motivation is not the wanting of a brighter future but simply to ‘teach these guys a lesson’...
A brighter future does not include being part of a USE, being unable to fire my rulers, or having my rulers not speak my language.
@stodge people genuinely believe that if a ‘no deal’ Brexit happens Brexit will be over and everything will continue to go on just as it is now.
The level of ignorance is astonishing.
The Brexit supporting media are driving the public toward the cliff edge. Until the Brexit supporting media stop their propoganda people will be led and taken for fools...
Or maybe we actually want to leave? If only a proper vote had been carried out. Oh it has....
I have observed politics long enough to see exactly what is going on. The people and political party change but the way the media operate remains the same. The Brexit supporting media are trying everything in an attempt to lead public opinion into supporting No Deal. Some of us do not fall for BS propogated at the moment and wonder how people can be so guilible...
Maybe some of us have been uneasy about the whole thing for as long as we can remember but put up with it. But then a Rubicon was crossed ( Lisbon for me sans referendum) after which we believe that leave is existential. Again some of us were prepared to do a “Michael Collins” and do it in stages, compromise and accept May’s deal and go from there. But then the likes of Grieve and others decided to use every arcane trick they could find in ancient scrolls to deny the biggest vote ever held in this country. So I have been forced from my compromise position by these antics to chose: stay or no deal. So it’s no deal.
Well said!
31 October at 23:00 when we actually leave I hope for a second Blair, Brown and Grieves stop for a second and think to themselves "I brought this about". They won't but they should.
Hubris brings Nemesis.
It’s like your motivation is not the wanting of a brighter future but simply to ‘teach these guys a lesson’...
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
They DO have the inclination and the desire to blink. As individual nations.They need a deal, as Europe teeters on the edge of recession, and another eurozone crisis. They need a good, mutually beneficial deal. Why die on a hill for a backstop they don't actually like!?
The problem is the EU as a PROJECT cannot sustain a decent deal. as it shows it maybe profits a nation to quit the EU.
A club which can only exist by menacing members who want to leave is not fit for purpose. Hence, Brexit. The appalling difficulty of Brexit proves the absolute necessity of Brexit.
The EU negotiated a deal with the British government as required under Article 50. The deal includes a mechanism for keeping the Irish border open as required by an international treaty signed by the UK and Ireland, an EU member state. The British Parliament rejected the deal because some members of the governing coalition objected to that mechanism, despite offering no workable alternative. What part of that sequence of events constitutes "menacing" by the EU? Face it, the deal failed for the same reason that every aspect of Brexit has either failed already or is about to fail - because it is an ill thought out project pedalled by liars, fools and cynical opportunists. Now some of its proponents are thrashing around, desperate to find somebody else to blame. It doesn't fool anybody.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
Biased supposition projected as fact.
I don't know the EU's thinking (neither do you) but I would be prepared to hazard a guess that if we approach the 31st there will be immense pressure from many leaders to ensure there is a deal.
And I include Varadkar as the penny drops with him that the RoI will be gutted out in the event of no deal.
Ireland is not a quaint little poor outpost next to Britain you know. Its a strong, proud, and modern European country with the weight of the EU behind it.
Ireland is great. Love the Irish. They have excellent oysters and tell pretty good jokes.
But let's not get carried away. Ireland is also a tiny nation of <5m people speaking a foreign language, with an economy funded by parasitically low corporate tax rates.
I wonder how long those tax rates will last, when they haven't got the British at their side in the EU, to defend their economy, just as we literally defend their airspace?
@stodge people genuinely believe that if a ‘no deal’ Brexit happens Brexit will be over and everything will continue to go on just as it is now.
The level of ignorance is astonishing.
The Brexit supporting media are driving the public toward the cliff edge. Until the Brexit supporting media stop their propoganda people will be led and taken for fools...
Or maybe we actually want to leave? If only a proper vote had been carried out. Oh it has....
I have observed politics long enough to see exactly what is going on. The people and political party change but the way the media operate remains the same. The Brexit supporting media are trying everything in an attempt to lead public opinion into supporting No Deal. Some of us do not fall for BS propogated at the moment and wonder how people can be so guilible...
Maybe some of us have been uneasy about the whole thing for as long as we can remember but put up with it. But then a Rubicon was crossed ( Lisbon for me sans referendum) after which we believe that leave is existential. Again some of us were prepared to do a “Michael Collins” and do it in stages, compromise and accept May’s deal and go from there. But then the likes of Grieve and others decided to use every arcane trick they could find in ancient scrolls to deny the biggest vote ever held in this country. So I have been forced from my compromise position by these antics to chose: stay or no deal. So it’s no deal.
Well said!
31 October at 23:00 when we actually leave I hope for a second Blair, Brown and Grieves stop for a second and think to themselves "I brought this about". They won't but they should.
Hubris brings Nemesis.
It’s like your motivation is not the wanting of a brighter future but simply to ‘teach these guys a lesson’...
A brighter future does not include being part of a USE, being unable to fire my rulers, or having my rulers not speak my language.
Not a single day goes by when the destruction wrought by Cameron's referendum doesn't get worse.
Not a single day goes by when the Remainer panic that we are really leaving doesn't get worse.
Every day that goes by makes actually leaving less likely. Leavers should have backed May's deal when they had the chance.
You really aren't reading the runes, are you?
We are out. Gone. Cheerio, EU.
Yes. We are. That's my reading. We're OUT.
Assume Brace Position.
Mine too. The momentum behind October 31 is now becoming irresistible. The question arises what will be the reaction come November? My guess is there will be plenty surprised not everything is the same. And plenty surprised that there is still much to do.
Yep. Agreed.
I think Hard Brexit will be surprisingly painless short term, surprisingly painful medium term, and then it will be seen as inevitable and no-big-deal in the long term (10 years plus);
Who will benefit from that, politically, I really do not know. The EU will take a reputational hammering, for sure. Losing arguably its most influential member? Bad.
What a fuck up by a generation of idiot politicians, on both sides of the Channel.
I think that's exactly right.
The sky will not fall in on day one. Food will not become scarce. Medicines will continue to flow.
But there will be a three to five year adjustment period, which will have the potential to be quite unpleasant. Certain sectors with very internation supply chains will end up leaving the UK. I think London will be less of a magnet for foreigners, and that will affect prices. (Which is a classic "good thing long term, but kinda painful for those people who bought one bedroom flats in Shepherd's Bush for £300,000.")
We'll find, too, that we swing from "more people than we're comfortable with" to "wait, why are all these people paying taxes leaving?". Of course, equilibrium will be reached.
I think we'll rediscover that nations don't have friends, they have interests. Which might come as a nasty surprise, especially in dealings with the Americans and the Chinese.
But a decade from now? It will largely be forgotten. Unless, of course, we manage to get ourselves in a nasty spiral of revolution and counter-revolution. In which case, it may all be exceptionally shit.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
Biased supposition projected as fact.
I don't know the EU's thinking (neither do you) but I would be prepared to hazard a guess that if we approach the 31st there will be immense pressure from many leaders to ensure there is a deal.
And I include Varadkar as the penny drops with him that the RoI will be gutted out in the event of no deal.
Ireland is not a quaint little poor outpost next to Britain you know. Its a strong, proud, and modern European country with the weight of the EU behind it.
Ireland is great. Love the Irish. They have excellent oysters and tell pretty good jokes.
But let's not get carried away. Ireland is also a tiny nation of <5m people speaking a foreign language economically funded by parasitically low corporate tax rates.
I wonder how long those tax rates will last, when they haven't got the British in the EU, to defend their economy, just as we literally defend their airspace?</p>
Seems that the mps need to take care in trying to stop brexit as Boris will clearly make a GE the people v the remainer HOC and unelected HOL
An early vonc could play straight into Boris's hand
Indeed these poll findings, if they solidify in other polls, could see many mps not wanting to be seen supporting no brexit
I should be very careful about reading too much into opinion polls commisioned for Brexit supporting newspapers! The Brexit supporting media is in full boosting Johnson mode, they are not following public opinion but trying to lead it into No Deal Brexit and supporting Johnson in the 'forthcoming election'.
Johnson is in the business of convincing everyone that he is heading for no deal in the hope that the EU will blink. He's doing a pretty good job at the moment, partly because his parliamentary opponents are quiet at the moment so he has the field to himself. But if the EU does not blink things will be much more difficult for him in a few weeks' time.
The EU have neither the inclination nor desire to blink.
They DO have the inclination and the desire to blink. As individual nations.They need a deal, as Europe teeters on the edge of recession, and another eurozone crisis. They need a good, mutually beneficial deal. Why die on a hill for a backstop they don't actually like!?
The problem is the EU as a PROJECT cannot sustain a decent deal. as it shows it maybe profits a nation to quit the EU.
A club which can only exist by menacing members who want to leave is not fit for purpose. Hence, Brexit. The appalling difficulty of Brexit proves the absolute necessity of Brexit.
The EU negotiated a deal with the British government as required under Article 50. The deal includes a mechanism for keeping the Irish border open as required by an international treaty signed by the UK and Ireland, an EU member state. The British Parliament rejected the deal because some members of the governing coalition objected to that mechanism, despite offering no workable alternative. What part of that sequence of events constitutes "menacing" by the EU? Face it, the deal failed for the same reason that every aspect of Brexit has either failed already or is about to fail - because it is an ill thought out project pedalled by liars, fools and cynical opportunists. Now some of its proponents are thrashing around, desperate to find somebody else to blame. It doesn't fool anybody.
@stodge people genuinely believe that if a ‘no deal’ Brexit happens Brexit will be over and everything will continue to go on just as it is now.
The level of ignorance is astonishing.
The Brexit supporting media are driving the public toward the cliff edge. Until the Brexit supporting media stop their propoganda people will be led and taken for fools...
Or maybe we actually want to leave? If only a proper vote had been carried out. Oh it has....
I have observed politics long enough to see exactly what is going on. The people and political party change but the way the media operate remains the same. The Brexit supporting media are trying everything in an attempt to lead public opinion into supporting No Deal. Some of us do not fall for BS propogated at the moment and wonder how people can be so guilible...
Maybe some of us have been uneasy about the whole thing for as long as we can remember but put up with it. But then a Rubicon was crossed ( Lisbon for me sans referendum) after which we believe that leave is existential. Again some of us were prepared to do a “Michael Collins” and do it in stages, compromise and accept May’s deal and go from there. But then the likes of Grieve and others decided to use every arcane trick they could find in ancient scrolls to deny the biggest vote ever held in this country. So I have been forced from my compromise position by these antics to chose: stay or no deal. So it’s no deal.
Well said!
31 October at 23:00 when we actually leave I hope for a second Blair, Brown and Grieves stop for a second and think to themselves "I brought this about". They won't but they should.
Hubris brings Nemesis.
It’s like your motivation is not the wanting of a brighter future but simply to ‘teach these guys a lesson’...
I will be happy in its own right.
Karma for these guys actions will be the cherry on top. I will have schadenfreud at that and am not afraid to admit.
I'd like to know what Byronic thinks of the Hong Kong situation. Who would have believed a couple of years ago that HK airport would be closed to almost all flights due to protests?
The Chinese response to HK has the potential to be the downfall of their country.
One thing to kill a couple of thousand in a day in Beijing or to murder and intern hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the Western Provinces.
But try repressing millions who have never lived under the jackboot of oppressive left wing gangsters - I doubt they can keep the lid on that pressure cooker. And it will cost them billions - and the ruptures could be uncontrollable.
Comments
We are out. Gone. Cheerio, EU.
The distinction being that there are yes people who believe that Brexit is wrong but still want to do it anyway, to respect the referendum result. Our own HYUFD being an example of this.
You disagree with that claim?
Boris and his clowns will get the blame and rightly so.
What we are seeing here is the I Want Brexit Over With Party showing its considerable support. As I remarked this morning, people are bored and tired with Brexit, with the constant reporting of it day in and day out and the unique dominance it has enjoyed over public discourse since 2016.
Everything was and is about Brexit - we've argued about it on here every day for more than three and a half years. We frame every poll, every election on the basis of how an area voted on 23/6/16.
We carry the Referendum like a millstone round our necks - it drags us back, holds us down and wearies us.
A lot of people now have Brexit fatigue - they claim not to care about the consequences of leaving without a WA (we'll see how long that lasts) and indeed that's not important either. They simply want it done and over with.
Those who think however IF there are problems that people will suddenly embrace the EU and want to return are mistaken. Johnson and the Government will be blamed (rightly) for any problems but there will definitely be no clamour to rejoin for a decade or more and parties like the LDs should use the post-Brexit period to argue how they would run the country better not whether we were right or wrong to leave the EU.
Cause and credit are two different issues. If it wasn't for Remainers voting en-mass to reject the deal, the deal would have been passed and no deal would have been impossible. Remainers had 3 chances to take no deal permanently off the table and rejected it every time. Considering the Conservatives were in office, the consequences of doing so were highly predictable as the ERG foresaw. The ERG have played a blinder, everyone else . . . not so much.
The level of ignorance is astonishing.
Nah, thought not.....
Boris is going over parliament’s head to the voters - and they are accepting of that because they see MPs as a bunch of utter turds for failing to progress the referendum result.
You getting it yet ?
Putting it to the test with a hard Brexit could be an interesting case study. If in a few years Spain or Greece or others are still struggling but a free from Brussels Britain is surprising people by doing well we could lead the path for others to follow.
Had that not happened we likely would never have left.
They will be queuing up for a bit of post Brexit low tax global outlook - probably without the crap Mrs May 3 year malingering.
https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/
After that I’d have walked across glass to vote to leave. And would again.
Once we've left the melodrama of how we left will quickly be history and how well we do afterwards will matter most.
If the UK does well, if Project Fear is shown to be a nonsense it could put a rocket under other sceptics across the continent.
Especially since human nature mean people will think they can do it better. "Look how the EU tried and failed to hold back Britain. We have nothing to be afraid of and we can do it better than the Brits."
Assume Brace Position.
Can’t be anything to do with the SCons falling back to third place on 17%. No, of course not! That is an outrageous suggestion.
(Table 29, page 42)
https://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/The-Telegraph_August-2019-Tables.pdf
https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/1161029470465220608?s=21
The problem is the EU as a PROJECT cannot sustain a decent deal. as it shows it
maybe profits a nation to quit the EU.
A club which can only exist by menacing members who want to leave is not fit for purpose. Hence, Brexit. The appalling difficulty of Brexit proves the absolute necessity of Brexit.
My guess is there will be plenty surprised not everything is the same. And plenty surprised that there is still much to do.
The loss for the UK is self inflicted, not a punishment. How can a good thing be a punishment?
A rogue poll is a poll whose results you don't like?
There are major structural problems with the UK economy, such as an overreliance on consumption, consumer borrowing, the use of homes as a source of saving, our education system, a tax and benefits system that actively discourages work, and the like.
What we're getting is "be more optimistic" and a spending splurge. (Which will, of course, only make the UK economy more unbalanced.)
There are serious questions above and beyond Brexit, like how we pay for social care with an ageing population and worsening dependency ratios.
Yet I see no sign of seriousness. Or even awareness. I see a government - and an opposition - who think that promises and profligacy are the answer to every question.
The sun will still rise and set though. We will stutter then move in much as before.
I don't know the EU's thinking (neither do you) but I would be prepared to hazard a guess that if we approach the 31st there will be immense pressure from many leaders to ensure there is a deal.
And I include Varadkar as the penny drops with him that the RoI will be gutted out in the event of no deal.
I think Hard Brexit will be surprisingly painless short term, surprisingly painful medium term, and then it will be seen as inevitable and no-big-deal in the long term (10 years plus);
Who will benefit from that, politically, I really do not know. The EU will take a reputational hammering, for sure. Losing arguably its most influential member? Bad.
What a fuck up by a generation of idiot politicians, on both sides of the Channel.
*there won't be.
31 October at 23:00 when we actually leave I hope for a second Blair, Brown and Grieves stop for a second and think to themselves "I brought this about". They won't but they should.
Hubris brings Nemesis.
Michel Barnier, in 2016, in Le Point (in French, but translated for you):
“I shall have succeeded in my task if the final deal is so hard on the British that they’ll end up preferring to stay"
It’s always about the money.
Errr, cut taxes and regulations, innit. Why? To what end? Are they an intrinsic good in themselves?
Some say yes. Some have a belief in a mystical Laffer Curve that automatically waters the magic money trees.
Meanwhile, most voters, especially Leavers, want more spending.
Precious little evidence in government anyone has thought any of it through.
It’s a vision of utter hell.
Face it, the deal failed for the same reason that every aspect of Brexit has either failed already or is about to fail - because it is an ill thought out project pedalled by liars, fools and cynical opportunists. Now some of its proponents are thrashing around, desperate to find somebody else to blame. It doesn't fool anybody.
But let's not get carried away. Ireland is also a tiny nation of <5m people speaking a foreign language, with an economy funded by parasitically low corporate tax rates.
I wonder how long those tax rates will last, when they haven't got the British at their side in the EU, to defend their economy, just as we literally defend their airspace?
The sky will not fall in on day one. Food will not become scarce. Medicines will continue to flow.
But there will be a three to five year adjustment period, which will have the potential to be quite unpleasant. Certain sectors with very internation supply chains will end up leaving the UK. I think London will be less of a magnet for foreigners, and that will affect prices. (Which is a classic "good thing long term, but kinda painful for those people who bought one bedroom flats in Shepherd's Bush for £300,000.")
We'll find, too, that we swing from "more people than we're comfortable with" to "wait, why are all these people paying taxes leaving?". Of course, equilibrium will be reached.
I think we'll rediscover that nations don't have friends, they have interests. Which might come as a nasty surprise, especially in dealings with the Americans and the Chinese.
But a decade from now? It will largely be forgotten. Unless, of course, we manage to get ourselves in a nasty spiral of revolution and counter-revolution. In which case, it may all be exceptionally shit.
Karma for these guys actions will be the cherry on top. I will have schadenfreud at that and am not afraid to admit.
One thing to kill a couple of thousand in a day in Beijing or to murder and intern hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the Western Provinces.
But try repressing millions who have never lived under the jackboot of oppressive left wing gangsters - I doubt they can keep the lid on that pressure cooker. And it will cost them billions - and the ruptures could be uncontrollable.
Hence why they have shown restraint - for now.
Could be a fall of the Iron curtain level event.