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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:

    Vinny said:

    The point is that the majority for Brexit in the referendum was 1,269,501. None of this other rubbish matters.

    Many of whom have now either died or changed their minds.
    Non-statistical anecdote alert. Not one of my friends have changed their minds Leave -> Remain. Two have gone Remain -> Leave. My friends are rational professionals who don't discuss politics between them.
    The Leave -> Remain switchers will be keeping quiet about it. No-one likes to admit to be made fools of.
    Actually, I know three people who have done just that. They were never very committed leavers in the first place so it means absolutely nothing. But all 3 are adamant that they never expected or wanted a No Deal Brexit.
    Conversely, my dad has gone from Remain to committed No Dealer. Another case of my being leapfrogged by people who were to the left of me.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381

    England and Scotland as modern European nations, using the Euro, proud neighbors and close friends, as part of the EU isn’t such a bad vision really.


    Your dream. My nightmare.
  • England and Scotland as modern European nations, using the Euro, proud neighbors and close friends, as part of the EU isn’t such a bad vision really.

    It's not an especially good one either. Why are England and Scotland in your eyes not capable of having their own currency like sensible, mature modern nations?
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,758

    HYUFD 's point above about a big reduction in LDs tactical voting for LAB is spot on. That will be reduced markedly.

    I think the next UK GE in Scotland is going to be the most “honest” for decades. Tactical voting will be minimal, which is counterintuitive as England adopts it big time.

    Pro-Union (UK)/pro-Union (EU) people are going to vote Lib Dem.
    Tories are going to vote Tory.
    Pro-self-government-inclined people are going to vote SNP.
    Batshit crazy English nationalists are going to vote Brexit Party.
    Vote-Labour-even-if-the-candidate-is-a-donkey people are going to largely sit on the sofa and try to pretend that this ain’t happening.

    This spells disaster for SLab and SCons, and big smiles for Nicola and Jo.
    Stuart, who do you think the 1,018,322 (38%) of Scots who voted for Brexit will vote for? Just out of interest.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:

    Vinny said:

    The point is that the majority for Brexit in the referendum was 1,269,501. None of this other rubbish matters.

    Many of whom have now either died or changed their minds.
    Non-statistical anecdote alert. Not one of my friends have changed their minds Leave -> Remain. Two have gone Remain -> Leave. My friends are rational professionals who don't discuss politics between them.
    The Leave -> Remain switchers will be keeping quiet about it. No-one likes to admit to be made fools of.
    Actually, I know three people who have done just that. They were never very committed leavers in the first place so it means absolutely nothing. But all 3 are adamant that they never expected or wanted a No Deal Brexit.
    Conversely, my dad has gone from Remain to committed No Dealer. Another case of my being leapfrogged by people who were to the left of me.
    Sean- my sympathies for your dad's onset dementia.. these kind of quirky, irrational, insane behaviours are a tell tale sign.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Anyone know if Javid is as hopeless as he looks? I've seen more convincing Norwich defenders this evening.

    ......And does Boris have a problem with women? Women seem to think so....

    https://www.channel4.com/news/does-boris-johnson-have-a-popularity-problem-with-women
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    Chris said:


    No I'm not saying that. I explained what I said and if you don't understand it I will explain it further.

    COGS or Cost Of Goods Sold is only one element in the price you pay. Often it can actually be a surprisingly small element. A retailer [and consumers do buy from retailers not from other countries] that is selling you a good will have other factors involved in their supply chain and other factors involved in their business, not all of which will be imported. And the fact that you said "other things being equal" as opposed to what you think it means, will mean they MUST still have elements from the UK in their price.

    For instance at its most basic l

    Etc, etc, etc - there are a lot of fixed costs that are in sterling, COGS is only one element in their price.

    Finally the retailer will be making a margin. Now you've assumed that the only option is the price goes up 33% or the business makes a smaller margin. However even if all costs did go up 33% [which is obviously not the case] if the price went up 33% then the businesses cash profit margin is also going up up 33%. When you said all else being equal were you meaning businesses cash profit margins would go up 33%?

    My God - my sympathy really goes out to the people who tried to teach you economics.

    You don't read properly, you can't understand what you do read, and you jump to all kinds of wild conclusions and put all kinds of ridiculous things into people's mouths.

    In words of one syllable (or as close as I can get): If a British purchaser buys something from a foreign vendor then the loss of value of sterling you are predicting will imply, OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, that the purchaser will have to pay the vendor 33% more in sterling.

    I am making no assumptions about margins, staff costs, or anything else. All that stuff is in your mind.

    The question is what happens to that additional cost. Is it passed on to the consumer, or is it absorbed by the business or businesses in the supply chain?

    That's a simple question for you. You've said the effect on prices to the consumer will be marginal. You need to explain how that's possible.

    If a business has huge margins, then it may be able to absorb the extra costs. But if we're talking about supermarkets, where the margin is apparently only 1-2%, how does this work? You need to explain it, and stop blathering about all the irrelevant stuff you're imagining.
    We know that the impact is marginal, because we have the numbers for inflation rates.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019

    England and Scotland as modern European nations, using the Euro, proud neighbors and close friends, as part of the EU isn’t such a bad vision really.

    If Scotland goes that makes it more likely England stays out of the EU as England was 53.38% Leave compared to 51.89% for the UK as a whole.

    Plus even if Scotland did get independence and even if it did rejoin the EU rather than just stay in the Single Market with Norway and Switzerland no guarantee it would join the Euro, it might prefer to follow Sweden and Denmark and keep its own currency
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    England and Scotland as modern European nations, using the Euro, proud neighbors and close friends, as part of the EU isn’t such a bad vision really.

    It's not an especially good one either. Why are England and Scotland in your eyes not capable of having their own currency like sensible, mature modern nations?
    They don’t have one now, do they?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:

    Vinny said:

    The point is that the majority for Brexit in the referendum was 1,269,501. None of this other rubbish matters.

    Many of whom have now either died or changed their minds.
    Non-statistical anecdote alert. Not one of my friends have changed their minds Leave -> Remain. Two have gone Remain -> Leave. My friends are rational professionals who don't discuss politics between them.
    The Leave -> Remain switchers will be keeping quiet about it. No-one likes to admit to be made fools of.
    Actually, I know three people who have done just that. They were never very committed leavers in the first place so it means absolutely nothing. But all 3 are adamant that they never expected or wanted a No Deal Brexit.
    Conversely, my dad has gone from Remain to committed No Dealer. Another case of my being leapfrogged by people who were to the left of me.
    Sean- my sympathies for your dad's onset dementia.. these kind of quirky, irrational, insane behaviours are a tell tale sign.
    My dad's mental health is fine.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Javid is as hopeless as he looks? I've seen more convincing Norwich defenders this evening.

    ......And does Boris have a problem with women? Women seem to think so....

    https://www.channel4.com/news/does-boris-johnson-have-a-popularity-problem-with-women

    Roger...Javid is not really that much of a big hitter.

    Norwich do appear slightly flakey.

    Comrade, as ever, it is good to see you still posting.....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381

    HYUFD 's point above about a big reduction in LDs tactical voting for LAB is spot on. That will be reduced markedly.

    I think the next UK GE in Scotland is going to be the most “honest” for decades. Tactical voting will be minimal, which is counterintuitive as England adopts it big time.

    Pro-Union (UK)/pro-Union (EU) people are going to vote Lib Dem.
    Tories are going to vote Tory.
    Pro-self-government-inclined people are going to vote SNP.
    Batshit crazy English nationalists are going to vote Brexit Party.
    Vote-Labour-even-if-the-candidate-is-a-donkey people are going to largely sit on the sofa and try to pretend that this ain’t happening.

    This spells disaster for SLab and SCons, and big smiles for Nicola and Jo.
    Stuart, who do you think the 1,018,322 (38%) of Scots who voted for Brexit will vote for? Just out of interest.
    They are no true Scotsmen.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:

    Vinny said:

    The point is that the majority for Brexit in the referendum was 1,269,501. None of this other rubbish matters.

    Many of whom have now either died or changed their minds.
    Non-statistical anecdote alert. Not one of my friends have changed their minds Leave -> Remain. Two have gone Remain -> Leave. My friends are rational professionals who don't discuss politics between them.
    The Leave -> Remain switchers will be keeping quiet about it. No-one likes to admit to be made fools of.
    Actually, I know three people who have done just that. They were never very committed leavers in the first place so it means absolutely nothing. But all 3 are adamant that they never expected or wanted a No Deal Brexit.
    Conversely, my dad has gone from Remain to committed No Dealer. Another case of my being leapfrogged by people who were to the left of me.
    Sean- my sympathies for your dad's onset dementia.. these kind of quirky, irrational, insane behaviours are a tell tale sign.
    "onset dementia" makes no sense on its own. Are you wrongly parsing "early onset dementia" as {early} {onset dementia}? It's {early onset} {dementia}.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:

    Vinny said:

    The point is that the majority for Brexit in the referendum was 1,269,501. None of this other rubbish matters.

    Many of whom have now either died or changed their minds.
    Non-statistical anecdote alert. Not one of my friends have changed their minds Leave -> Remain. Two have gone Remain -> Leave. My friends are rational professionals who don't discuss politics between them.
    The Leave -> Remain switchers will be keeping quiet about it. No-one likes to admit to be made fools of.
    Actually, I know three people who have done just that. They were never very committed leavers in the first place so it means absolutely nothing. But all 3 are adamant that they never expected or wanted a No Deal Brexit.
    Conversely, my dad has gone from Remain to committed No Dealer. Another case of my being leapfrogged by people who were to the left of me.
    Sean- my sympathies for your dad's onset dementia.. these kind of quirky, irrational, insane behaviours are a tell tale sign.
    My dad's mental health is fine.
    Well how else do you explain this sudden downturn in the old boy's capacity? I am sure there are other causes...does he take Acid? Perhaps he has an STD that has affected his brain. Did he fall over recently and bump his head? Perhaps the indication of a brain tumour. There are many explanations that can explain such a loss in brain capacity. Get him to the quacks fast comrade....
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,758
    HYUFD said:

    England and Scotland as modern European nations, using the Euro, proud neighbors and close friends, as part of the EU isn’t such a bad vision really.

    If Scotland goes that makes it more likely England stays out of the EU as England was 53.38% Leave compared to 51.89% for the UK as a whole.

    Plus even if Scotland did get independence and even if it did rejoin the EU rather than just stay in the Single Market with Norway and Switzerland no guarantee it would join the Euro, it might prefer to follow Sweden and Denmark and keep its own currency
    It might but the cost would be crippling. And it would face the problem of reducing its debt to a level acceptable to the Euro-mandarinate. Bye bye free prescriptions, free tuition fees etc etc (Even if the latter commitment was engraven in stone by the late great Alex Salmond. Presume that stone will end up in the same fenced enclosure as the "Ed Stone").
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Chris said:


    My God - my sympathy really goes out to the people who tried to teach you economics.

    You don't read properly, you can't understand what you do read, and you jump to all kinds of wild conclusions and put all kinds of ridiculous things into people's mouths.

    In words of one syllable (or as close as I can get): If a British purchaser buys something from a foreign vendor then the loss of value of sterling you are predicting will imply, OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, that the purchaser will have to pay the vendor 33% more in sterling.

    I am making no assumptions about margins, staff costs, or anything else. All that stuff is in your mind.

    The question is what happens to that additional cost. Is it passed on to the consumer, or is it absorbed by the business or businesses in the supply chain?

    That's a simple question for you. You've said the effect on prices to the consumer will be marginal. You need to explain how that's possible.

    If a business has huge margins, then it may be able to absorb the extra costs. But if we're talking about supermarkets, where the margin is apparently only 1-2%, how does this work? You need to explain it, and stop blathering about all the irrelevant stuff you're imagining.

    I have no idea if Philip's argument is good because I have no idea if the premise- that the cost to the retailer of imported goods is a very small proportion of the final cost to the consumer- is accurate.

    But the argument he's making from that premise is very simple, straightforward and logical. I have no idea why you're finding it so hard to understand, or why you keep talking about business absorbing the costs.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Javid is as hopeless as he looks? I've seen more convincing Norwich defenders this evening.

    ......And does Boris have a problem with women? Women seem to think so....

    https://www.channel4.com/news/does-boris-johnson-have-a-popularity-problem-with-women

    Roger...Javid is not really that much of a big hitter.

    Norwich do appear slightly flakey.

    Comrade, as ever, it is good to see you still posting.....
    Hi tyson. Hanging on in here-just. I thought you'd be in Florence. England is no place for you or me. The bastards have taken over big time.
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    stodge said:



    No. But it is an interesting indication of how fragile our systems are and how vulnerable they are to unexpected events.

    The one I know I bore everyone silly with is a Carrington event. If we get a big solar flare heading our way then our power supply chain has two choices. The sensible one is to isolate all our power generation systems from the grid so they don't get a massive power surge that burns out the generators. The other is to not isolate them and so we lose much of our generation equipment.

    Trouble is, as we have seen today, isolating all our generating equipment will of course cause countrywide power cuts and absolute chaos. Our whole society is far too reliant upon centrally generated electricity. This will only get worse as we move away from domestic gas.

    From what I can gather, the power failure lasted 12-15 minutes but it knocked out all the signalling on the LNER lines from Kings X and for a huge area north. That is what has paralysed the transport network and I suspect the same may be true on other rail lines.

    I agree it illustrates the vulnerability of aspects of our infrastructure so why is there no money for that but there is money for tax cuts?

    Once we properly brexit, with all the money we save we will be able to keep up investment in infrastructure rather than skip investment because of our EU membership. So break downs because of iffy generators is not a taste of things to come.
  • tyson said:



    You mean the Eurozone would have integrated without us, and Eurosceptics would have continued to say we would inevitably be drawn into it?

    It wasn't and isn't just the Eurozone. It is the whole system of governance in the EU. As you well know because it is your dream.
    That terrible Eurozone that fucked us up for all those years..the Thatcher boom, the Major and Blair boom. Now we are on the verge of reaching our dreams...
    Who said it fucked us up? Well to be fair the Greeks might. But I didn't.

    Of course the only way you Eurofanatics can make a point these days is by lies and misquotes.
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    I love my currys.

    Priti convinced me I had to vote forbrexit so she can bring in more Indian curry chefs and waiters otherwise restaurants would close because of shortages caused by EU laws banning migrants into Britain. That hasn’t changed has it?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    HYUFD said:

    England and Scotland as modern European nations, using the Euro, proud neighbors and close friends, as part of the EU isn’t such a bad vision really.

    If Scotland goes that makes it more likely England stays out of the EU as England was 53.38% Leave compared to 51.89% for the UK as a whole.

    Plus even if Scotland did get independence and even if it did rejoin the EU rather than just stay in the Single Market with Norway and Switzerland no guarantee it would join the Euro, it might prefer to follow Sweden and Denmark and keep its own currency
    We're all the way through the looking glass now.

    I'm almost nostalgic for the days when Unionists relentlessly told us that a seceding Scotland would definitely NOT be allowed to use the £, would HAVE to use the Euro, but that the EU wouldn't want us anyway and the only way to guarantee continuing membership was to vote NO.
    Happy days.
  • Travelling by train through London this evening. Massive power cut. Clapham Junction in darkness. Extraordinary scenes. First taste of post-Brexit Britain?

    I forgot that to rely on a train, in Boris' Britain, is to engage in a crapshoot with the Devil.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:

    England and Scotland as modern European nations, using the Euro, proud neighbors and close friends, as part of the EU isn’t such a bad vision really.

    If Scotland goes that makes it more likely England stays out of the EU as England was 53.38% Leave compared to 51.89% for the UK as a whole.

    Plus even if Scotland did get independence and even if it did rejoin the EU rather than just stay in the Single Market with Norway and Switzerland no guarantee it would join the Euro, it might prefer to follow Sweden and Denmark and keep its own currency
    It might but the cost would be crippling. And it would face the problem of reducing its debt to a level acceptable to the Euro-mandarinate. Bye bye free prescriptions, free tuition fees etc etc (Even if the latter commitment was engraven in stone by the late great Alex Salmond. Presume that stone will end up in the same fenced enclosure as the "Ed Stone").
    Yup, the Eurozone means ECB imposed austerity when required
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Roger said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Javid is as hopeless as he looks? I've seen more convincing Norwich defenders this evening.

    ......And does Boris have a problem with women? Women seem to think so....

    https://www.channel4.com/news/does-boris-johnson-have-a-popularity-problem-with-women

    Roger...Javid is not really that much of a big hitter.

    Norwich do appear slightly flakey.

    Comrade, as ever, it is good to see you still posting.....
    Hi tyson. Hanging on in here-just. I thought you'd be in Florence. England is no place for you or me. The bastards have taken over big time.
    Salvini hardly makes Italy too enticing either.....the world has gone bonkers..the nasty, small minded, bigots who prey on people's small minded fears have taken over the asylum sadly.

    Our grandchildren will hold particular revulsion for our generation..we knew it all, we had all the answers...but we let selfish, nasty, lowest common populism out of the bag at the worst possible time and destroyed our opportunity about creating a better planet for their future...
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD 's point above about a big reduction in LDs tactical voting for LAB is spot on. That will be reduced markedly.

    I think the next UK GE in Scotland is going to be the most “honest” for decades. Tactical voting will be minimal, which is counterintuitive as England adopts it big time.

    Pro-Union (UK)/pro-Union (EU) people are going to vote Lib Dem.
    Tories are going to vote Tory.
    Pro-self-government-inclined people are going to vote SNP.
    Batshit crazy English nationalists are going to vote Brexit Party.
    Vote-Labour-even-if-the-candidate-is-a-donkey people are going to largely sit on the sofa and try to pretend that this ain’t happening.

    This spells disaster for SLab and SCons, and big smiles for Nicola and Jo.
    Stuart, who do you think the 1,018,322 (38%) of Scots who voted for Brexit will vote for? Just out of interest.
    They are no true Scotsmen.
    2nd Scottish independence referendum is superseded and utterly irreverent now that the English have held and won their English independence referendum. It’s the English leaving the Scot’s to go in a new direction not the other way around, the English can’t possibly insist on Scots following out of EU against their will unless the Scots are English slaves or prisoners.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:

    Vinny said:

    The point is that the majority for Brexit in the referendum was 1,269,501. None of this other rubbish matters.

    Many of whom have now either died or changed their minds.
    Non-statistical anecdote alert. Not one of my friends have changed their minds Leave -> Remain. Two have gone Remain -> Leave. My friends are rational professionals who don't discuss politics between them.
    The Leave -> Remain switchers will be keeping quiet about it. No-one likes to admit to be made fools of.
    Actually, I know three people who have done just that. They were never very committed leavers in the first place so it means absolutely nothing. But all 3 are adamant that they never expected or wanted a No Deal Brexit.
    Conversely, my dad has gone from Remain to committed No Dealer. Another case of my being leapfrogged by people who were to the left of me.
    Sean- my sympathies for your dad's onset dementia.. these kind of quirky, irrational, insane behaviours are a tell tale sign.
    My dad's mental health is fine.
    Well how else do you explain this sudden downturn in the old boy's capacity? I am sure there are other causes...does he take Acid? Perhaps he has an STD that has affected his brain. Did he fall over recently and bump his head? Perhaps the indication of a brain tumour. There are many explanations that can explain such a loss in brain capacity. Get him to the quacks fast comrade....
    Physicians of the utmost fame,
    Came, and as they took their fees,
    Pronounced: there is no cure for this disease...

    Glad to have you back tyson! Why the move to Oxford?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:

    Vinny said:

    The point is that the majority for Brexit in the referendum was 1,269,501. None of this other rubbish matters.

    Many of whom have now either died or changed their minds.
    Non-statistical anecdote alert. Not one of my friends have changed their minds Leave -> Remain. Two have gone Remain -> Leave. My friends are rational professionals who don't discuss politics between them.
    The Leave -> Remain switchers will be keeping quiet about it. No-one likes to admit to be made fools of.
    Actually, I know three people who have done just that. They were never very committed leavers in the first place so it means absolutely nothing. But all 3 are adamant that they never expected or wanted a No Deal Brexit.
    Conversely, my dad has gone from Remain to committed No Dealer. Another case of my being leapfrogged by people who were to the left of me.
    Sean- my sympathies for your dad's onset dementia.. these kind of quirky, irrational, insane behaviours are a tell tale sign.
    My dad's mental health is fine.
    Well how else do you explain this sudden downturn in the old boy's capacity? I am sure there are other causes...does he take Acid? Perhaps he has an STD that has affected his brain. Did he fall over recently and bump his head? Perhaps the indication of a brain tumour. There are many explanations that can explain such a loss in brain capacity. Get him to the quacks fast comrade....
    No, it's more that he opposed Brexit, but thinks if there must be Brexit, then it should be a clean break.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    Travelling by train through London this evening. Massive power cut. Clapham Junction in darkness. Extraordinary scenes. First taste of post-Brexit Britain?

    I forgot that to rely on a train, in Boris' Britain, is to engage in a crapshoot with the Devil.
    Hmm...Sunil has made that joke twice. Must be a reference. Googles it. Aaahhhh... :smile:
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    England and Scotland as modern European nations, using the Euro, proud neighbors and close friends, as part of the EU isn’t such a bad vision really.

    If Scotland goes that makes it more likely England stays out of the EU as England was 53.38% Leave compared to 51.89% for the UK as a whole.

    Plus even if Scotland did get independence and even if it did rejoin the EU rather than just stay in the Single Market with Norway and Switzerland no guarantee it would join the Euro, it might prefer to follow Sweden and Denmark and keep its own currency
    It might but the cost would be crippling. And it would face the problem of reducing its debt to a level acceptable to the Euro-mandarinate. Bye bye free prescriptions, free tuition fees etc etc (Even if the latter commitment was engraven in stone by the late great Alex Salmond. Presume that stone will end up in the same fenced enclosure as the "Ed Stone").
    Yup, the Eurozone means ECB imposed austerity when required
    Scotland having austerity imposed upon us will certainly be a novelty.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019
    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Javid is as hopeless as he looks? I've seen more convincing Norwich defenders this evening.

    ......And does Boris have a problem with women? Women seem to think so....

    https://www.channel4.com/news/does-boris-johnson-have-a-popularity-problem-with-women

    Roger...Javid is not really that much of a big hitter.

    Norwich do appear slightly flakey.

    Comrade, as ever, it is good to see you still posting.....
    Hi tyson. Hanging on in here-just. I thought you'd be in Florence. England is no place for you or me. The bastards have taken over big time.
    Salvini hardly makes Italy too enticing either.....the world has gone bonkers..the nasty, small minded, bigots who prey on people's small minded fears have taken over the asylum sadly.

    Our grandchildren will hold particular revulsion for our generation..we knew it all, we had all the answers...but we let selfish, nasty, lowest common populism out of the bag at the worst possible time and destroyed our opportunity about creating a better planet for their future...
    Yes by Christmas given an Italian election looks likely and Salvini leads the polls, Trump, Boris and Salvini could be leading 3 out of the 7 G7 nations love them or loathe them.

    Add to that Bolsonaro in Brazil, Putin in Russia and Modi in India and the populist right and nationalism are on the march (and the populist left in Mexico with Lopez Obrador) but these things go in cycles and in a decade left liberalism could be back dominant again as it was in the mid to late 1990s (and still is in France and Canada and New Zealand and Spain with Macron and Trudeau and Ardern and Sanchez)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:

    Vinny said:

    The point is that the majority for Brexit in the referendum was 1,269,501. None of this other rubbish matters.

    Many of whom have now either died or changed their minds.
    Non-statistical anecdote alert. Not one of my friends have changed their minds Leave -> Remain. Two have gone Remain -> Leave. My friends are rational professionals who don't discuss politics between them.
    The Leave -> Remain switchers will be keeping quiet about it. No-one likes to admit to be made fools of.
    Actually, I know three people who have done just that. They were never very committed leavers in the first place so it means absolutely nothing. But all 3 are adamant that they never expected or wanted a No Deal Brexit.
    Conversely, my dad has gone from Remain to committed No Dealer. Another case of my being leapfrogged by people who were to the left of me.
    Sean- my sympathies for your dad's onset dementia.. these kind of quirky, irrational, insane behaviours are a tell tale sign.
    My dad's mental health is fine.
    Well how else do you explain this sudden downturn in the old boy's capacity? I am sure there are other causes...does he take Acid? Perhaps he has an STD that has affected his brain. Did he fall over recently and bump his head? Perhaps the indication of a brain tumour. There are many explanations that can explain such a loss in brain capacity. Get him to the quacks fast comrade....
    No, it's more that he opposed Brexit, but thinks if there must be Brexit, then it should be a clean break.
    "We must land the plane!"
    (Fails to land)
    "Well, we must crash!"
    (Passengers: um, hold on a minute...)
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:

    Vinny said:

    The point is that the majority for Brexit in the referendum was 1,269,501. None of this other rubbish matters.

    Many of whom have now either died or changed their minds.
    Non-statistical anecdote alert. Not one of my friends have changed their minds Leave -> Remain. Two have gone Remain -> Leave. My friends are rational professionals who don't discuss politics between them.
    The Leave -> Remain switchers will be keeping quiet about it. No-one likes to admit to be made fools of.
    Actually, I know three people who have done just that. They were never very committed leavers in the first place so it means absolutely nothing. But all 3 are adamant that they never expected or wanted a No Deal Brexit.
    Conversely, my dad has gone from Remain to committed No Dealer. Another case of my being leapfrogged by people who were to the left of me.
    Sean- my sympathies for your dad's onset dementia.. these kind of quirky, irrational, insane behaviours are a tell tale sign.
    My dad's mental health is fine.
    Well how else do you explain this sudden downturn in the old boy's capacity? I am sure there are other causes...does he take Acid? Perhaps he has an STD that has affected his brain. Did he fall over recently and bump his head? Perhaps the indication of a brain tumour. There are many explanations that can explain such a loss in brain capacity. Get him to the quacks fast comrade....
    Physicians of the utmost fame,
    Came, and as they took their fees,
    Pronounced: there is no cure for this disease...

    Glad to have you back tyson! Why the move to Oxford?
    I'm always lurking in these parts, and I do like to read your posts which I almost always intuitively (and inherently) agree with. I have almost forgiven you Foxes for your dalliance with Cameron circa 2010- but (that said) many doctors I knew at the time were similarly unimpressed with the oppressive performance management of NuLab.

    We were always going to go back to Oxford...I've got a nice job there too. Norwich is lovely (Pukki has just scored)- Mt Pleasant in particular, but once you have lived in Oxford North, other areas struggle to match up. And..Oxford North...Lonsdale Road..was the birthplace of this site....
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Javid is as hopeless as he looks? I've seen more convincing Norwich defenders this evening.

    ......And does Boris have a problem with women? Women seem to think so....

    https://www.channel4.com/news/does-boris-johnson-have-a-popularity-problem-with-women

    Roger...Javid is not really that much of a big hitter.

    Norwich do appear slightly flakey.

    Comrade, as ever, it is good to see you still posting.....
    Hi tyson. Hanging on in here-just. I thought you'd be in Florence. England is no place for you or me. The bastards have taken over big time.
    Salvini hardly makes Italy too enticing either.....the world has gone bonkers..the nasty, small minded, bigots who prey on people's small minded fears have taken over the asylum sadly.

    Our grandchildren will hold particular revulsion for our generation..we knew it all, we had all the answers...but we let selfish, nasty, lowest common populism out of the bag at the worst possible time and destroyed our opportunity about creating a better planet for their future...
    Yes by Christmas given an Italian election looks likely and Salvini leads the polls, Trump, Boris and Salvini could be leading 3 out of the 7 G7 nations love them or loathe them.

    Add to that Bolsonaro in Brazil, Putin in Russia and Modi in India and the populist right and nationalism are on the march (and the populist left in Mexico with Lopez Obrador) but these things go in cycles and in a decade left liberalism could be back dominant again as it was in the mid to late 1990s (and still is in France and Canada and New Zealand and Spain with Macron and Trudeau and Ardern and Sanchez)
    Are you saying you’re a fan of Putin?
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Javid is as hopeless as he looks? I've seen more convincing Norwich defenders this evening.

    ......And does Boris have a problem with women? Women seem to think so....

    https://www.channel4.com/news/does-boris-johnson-have-a-popularity-problem-with-women

    Roger...Javid is not really that much of a big hitter.

    Norwich do appear slightly flakey.

    Comrade, as ever, it is good to see you still posting.....
    Hi tyson. Hanging on in here-just. I thought you'd be in Florence. England is no place for you or me. The bastards have taken over big time.
    Salvini hardly makes Italy too enticing either.....the world has gone bonkers..the nasty, small minded, bigots who prey on people's small minded fears have taken over the asylum sadly.

    Our grandchildren will hold particular revulsion for our generation..we knew it all, we had all the answers...but we let selfish, nasty, lowest common populism out of the bag at the worst possible time and destroyed our opportunity about creating a better planet for their future...
    Yes by Christmas given an Italian election looks likely and Salvini leads the polls, Trump, Boris and Salvini could be leading 3 out of the 7 G7 nations love them or loathe them.

    Add to that Bolsonaro in Brazil, Putin in Russia and Modi in India and the populist right and nationalism are on the march (and the populist left in Mexico with Lopez Obrador) but these things go in cycles and in a decade left liberalism could be back dominant again as it was in the mid to late 1990s (and still is in France and Canada and New Zealand and Spain with Macron and Trudeau and Ardern and Sanchez)
    I don't think the planet has the luxury of a decade or two of rampant, populist Neo liberalism when we need urgent, utilitarian based intervention that curtails capitalism....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,707
    stodge said:



    No. But it is an interesting indication of how fragile our systems are and how vulnerable they are to unexpected events.

    The one I know I bore everyone silly with is a Carrington event. If we get a big solar flare heading our way then our power supply chain has two choices. The sensible one is to isolate all our power generation systems from the grid so they don't get a massive power surge that burns out the generators. The other is to not isolate them and so we lose much of our generation equipment.

    Trouble is, as we have seen today, isolating all our generating equipment will of course cause countrywide power cuts and absolute chaos. Our whole society is far too reliant upon centrally generated electricity. This will only get worse as we move away from domestic gas.

    From what I can gather, the power failure lasted 12-15 minutes but it knocked out all the signalling on the LNER lines from Kings X and for a huge area north. That is what has paralysed the transport network and I suspect the same may be true on other rail lines.

    I agree it illustrates the vulnerability of aspects of our infrastructure so why is there no money for that but there is money for tax cuts?
    Modern networks (comms, transport, whatever) are incredibly robust but also, perversely, incredibly fragile. They cope with massive amounts of traffic, but the amount of traffic means that there is precious little headroom for when problems occur, and the consequences are severe.

    And this has always been the case: when I was in London 25 years ago, a large part of the tube network got knocked out for a couple of days due to a power problem that they eventually traced to (from memory) Lots Road power station. Part of the problem was actually finding out where the failure was.

    As for spending money: as money is limited, it becomes a question of where you spend it. Modern networks are so complex that that becomes a very difficult question to answer, especially wrt redundancy.

    This situation is only going to get worse: we are going to get increasingly better services from our infrastructure, but the effects when it fails will be increasingly dire. As an example, imagine if GPS/Glosnass was to go down now, compared to ten years ago ...
  • HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Javid is as hopeless as he looks? I've seen more convincing Norwich defenders this evening.

    ......And does Boris have a problem with women? Women seem to think so....

    https://www.channel4.com/news/does-boris-johnson-have-a-popularity-problem-with-women

    Roger...Javid is not really that much of a big hitter.

    Norwich do appear slightly flakey.

    Comrade, as ever, it is good to see you still posting.....
    Hi tyson. Hanging on in here-just. I thought you'd be in Florence. England is no place for you or me. The bastards have taken over big time.
    Salvini hardly makes Italy too enticing either.....the world has gone bonkers..the nasty, small minded, bigots who prey on people's small minded fears have taken over the asylum sadly.

    Our grandchildren will hold particular revulsion for our generation..we knew it all, we had all the answers...but we let selfish, nasty, lowest common populism out of the bag at the worst possible time and destroyed our opportunity about creating a better planet for their future...
    Yes by Christmas given an Italian election looks likely and Salvini leads the polls, Trump, Boris and Salvini could be leading 3 out of the 7 G7 nations love them or loathe them.

    Add to that Bolsonaro in Brazil, Putin in Russia and Modi in India and the populist right and nationalism are on the march (and the populist left in Mexico with Lopez Obrador) but these things go in cycles and in a decade left liberalism could be back dominant again as it was in the mid to late 1990s (and still is in France and Canada and New Zealand and Spain with Macron and Trudeau and Ardern and Sanchez)
    Are you saying you’re a fan of Putin?
    HYUFD loves his men big, strong and populist right :lol:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Javid is as hopeless as he looks? I've seen more convincing Norwich defenders this evening.

    ......And does Boris have a problem with women? Women seem to think so....

    https://www.channel4.com/news/does-boris-johnson-have-a-popularity-problem-with-women

    Roger...Javid is not really that much of a big hitter.

    Norwich do appear slightly flakey.

    Comrade, as ever, it is good to see you still posting.....
    Hi tyson. Hanging on in here-just. I thought you'd be in Florence. England is no place for you or me. The bastards have taken over big time.
    Salvini hardly makes Italy too enticing either.....the world has gone bonkers..the nasty, small minded, bigots who prey on people's small minded fears have taken over the asylum sadly.

    Our grandchildren will hold particular revulsion for our generation..we knew it all, we had all the answers...but we let selfish, nasty, lowest common populism out of the bag at the worst possible time and destroyed our opportunity about creating a better planet for their future...
    Yes by Christmas given an Italian election looks likely and Salvini leads the polls, Trump, Boris and Salvini could be leading 3 out of the 7 G7 nations love them or loathe them.

    Add to that Bolsonaro in Brazil, Putin in Russia and Modi in India and the populist right and nationalism are on the march (and the populist left in Mexico with Lopez Obrador) but these things go in cycles and in a decade left liberalism could be back dominant again as it was in the mid to late 1990s (and still is in France and Canada and New Zealand and Spain with Macron and Trudeau and Ardern and Sanchez)
    Are you saying you’re a fan of Putin?
    No I preferred Gorbachev and Yeltsin but he is a Nationalist by any definition
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019
    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Javid is as hopeless as he looks? I've seen more convincing Norwich defenders this evening.

    ......And does Boris have a problem with women? Women seem to think so....

    https://www.channel4.com/news/does-boris-johnson-have-a-popularity-problem-with-women

    Roger...Javid is not really that much of a big hitter.

    Norwich do appear slightly flakey.

    Comrade, as ever, it is good to see you still posting.....
    Hi tyson. Hanging on in here-just. I thought you'd be in Florence. England is no place for you or me. The bastards have taken over big time.
    Salvini hardly makes Italy too enticing either.....the world has gone bonkers..the nasty, small minded, bigots who prey on people's small minded fears have taken over the asylum sadly.

    Our grandchildren will hold particular revulsion for our generation..we knew it all, we had all the answers...but we let selfish, nasty, lowest common populism out of the bag at the worst possible time and destroyed our opportunity about creating a better planet for their future...
    Yes by Christmas given an Italian election looks likely and Salvini leads the polls, Trump, Boris and Salvini could be leading 3 out of the 7 G7 nations love them or loathe them.

    Add to that Bolsonaro in Brazil, Putin in Russia and Modi in India and the populist right and nationalism are on the march (and the populist left in Mexico with Lopez Obrador) but these things go in cycles and in a decade left liberalism could be back dominant again as it was in the mid to late 1990s (and still is in France and Canada and New Zealand and Spain with Macron and Trudeau and Ardern and Sanchez)
    I don't think the planet has the luxury of a decade or two of rampant, populist Neo liberalism when we need urgent, utilitarian based intervention that curtails capitalism....
    It is not neo liberalism as such e.g. Macron is neoliberal on many definitions and Cameron and Osborne and Clegg were more neoliberal than Boris, more tax cut and spending populism combined with tougher immigration controls and putting the nation state above internationalism
  • Scott_P said:
    Kingfisher?

    Kingfisher was an Indian private airline that went bust in 2012...


  • Modern networks (comms, transport, whatever) are incredibly robust but also, perversely, incredibly fragile. They cope with massive amounts of traffic, but the amount of traffic means that there is precious little headroom for when problems occur, and the consequences are severe.

    And this has always been the case: when I was in London 25 years ago, a large part of the tube network got knocked out for a couple of days due to a power problem that they eventually traced to (from memory) Lots Road power station. Part of the problem was actually finding out where the failure was.

    As for spending money: as money is limited, it becomes a question of where you spend it. Modern networks are so complex that that becomes a very difficult question to answer, especially wrt redundancy.

    This situation is only going to get worse: we are going to get increasingly better services from our infrastructure, but the effects when it fails will be increasingly dire. As an example, imagine if GPS/Glosnass was to go down now, compared to ten years ago ...

    And of course we are making ourselves more and more reliant upon a single type of energy - electricity. Thirty years ago if the country had no electricity then we still had petrol cars and diesel trains as well as gas and coal for heating and cooking. Look forward 30 years to a time when we plan to have nothing but electric cars and trains, when the use of open fires is severely limited or the fuel non existent and when we no longer have domestic piped gas.

    Taking away our electricity for several days under those circumstances would be catastrophic.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478

    Scott_P said:
    Kingfisher?

    Kingfisher was an Indian private airline that went bust in 2012...
    Isn’t it a somewhat iffy Indian beer?
  • Scott_P said:
    Kingfisher?

    Kingfisher was an Indian private airline that went bust in 2012...
    Isn’t it a somewhat iffy Indian beer?
    Yep, the airline was owned by United Breweries Group.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Cummings to deliver Brexit then leave - what will the moaner wets moan about then ?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD 's point above about a big reduction in LDs tactical voting for LAB is spot on. That will be reduced markedly.

    I think the next UK GE in Scotland is going to be the most “honest” for decades. Tactical voting will be minimal, which is counterintuitive as England adopts it big time.

    Pro-Union (UK)/pro-Union (EU) people are going to vote Lib Dem.
    Tories are going to vote Tory.
    Pro-self-government-inclined people are going to vote SNP.
    Batshit crazy English nationalists are going to vote Brexit Party.
    Vote-Labour-even-if-the-candidate-is-a-donkey people are going to largely sit on the sofa and try to pretend that this ain’t happening.

    This spells disaster for SLab and SCons, and big smiles for Nicola and Jo.
    Stuart, who do you think the 1,018,322 (38%) of Scots who voted for Brexit will vote for? Just out of interest.
    They are no true Scotsmen.
    Flew right past me.
  • OT. The Sky news headline says 'MPs agree £300 million British Steel deal'.

    How can MPs agree anything if the House is not sitting?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,707



    Modern networks (comms, transport, whatever) are incredibly robust but also, perversely, incredibly fragile. They cope with massive amounts of traffic, but the amount of traffic means that there is precious little headroom for when problems occur, and the consequences are severe.

    And this has always been the case: when I was in London 25 years ago, a large part of the tube network got knocked out for a couple of days due to a power problem that they eventually traced to (from memory) Lots Road power station. Part of the problem was actually finding out where the failure was.

    As for spending money: as money is limited, it becomes a question of where you spend it. Modern networks are so complex that that becomes a very difficult question to answer, especially wrt redundancy.

    This situation is only going to get worse: we are going to get increasingly better services from our infrastructure, but the effects when it fails will be increasingly dire. As an example, imagine if GPS/Glosnass was to go down now, compared to ten years ago ...

    And of course we are making ourselves more and more reliant upon a single type of energy - electricity. Thirty years ago if the country had no electricity then we still had petrol cars and diesel trains as well as gas and coal for heating and cooking. Look forward 30 years to a time when we plan to have nothing but electric cars and trains, when the use of open fires is severely limited or the fuel non existent and when we no longer have domestic piped gas.

    Taking away our electricity for several days under those circumstances would be catastrophic.
    I agree. Two points I'd like to make about this:

    *) The National Grid (particularly the load-balancing parts) is rarely heard of - except today - but it really needs congratulating on the way It Just Works (tm). They've done a brilliant job over the decades, and are even coping with the rather difficult task of changing back from a few massive points of generation to many distributed points of low-power generation.

    *) The supply system is very prone to terrorism and/or climate and/or a Carrington-style event. There are some pieces of kit (e.g. large transformers) that are like hens-teeth; they are essentially made-to-order. If there is ever even a minor catastrophe, these are bottlenecks in the system. I'd like to see more of a strategic reserve of such things, and standards for them between the (few) suppliers.
  • HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Javid is as hopeless as he looks? I've seen more convincing Norwich defenders this evening.

    ......And does Boris have a problem with women? Women seem to think so....

    https://www.channel4.com/news/does-boris-johnson-have-a-popularity-problem-with-women

    Roger...Javid is not really that much of a big hitter.

    Norwich do appear slightly flakey.

    Comrade, as ever, it is good to see you still posting.....
    Hi tyson. Hanging on in here-just. I thought you'd be in Florence. England is no place for you or me. The bastards have taken over big time.
    Salvini hardly makes Italy too enticing either.....the world has gone bonkers..the nasty, small minded, bigots who prey on people's small minded fears have taken over the asylum sadly.

    Our grandchildren will hold particular revulsion for our generation..we knew it all, we had all the answers...but we let selfish, nasty, lowest common populism out of the bag at the worst possible time and destroyed our opportunity about creating a better planet for their future...
    Yes by Christmas given an Italian election looks likely and Salvini leads the polls, Trump, Boris and Salvini could be leading 3 out of the 7 G7 nations love them or loathe them.

    Add to that Bolsonaro in Brazil, Putin in Russia and Modi in India and the populist right and nationalism are on the march (and the populist left in Mexico with Lopez Obrador) but these things go in cycles and in a decade left liberalism could be back dominant again as it was in the mid to late 1990s (and still is in France and Canada and New Zealand and Spain with Macron and Trudeau and Ardern and Sanchez)
    Are you saying you’re a fan of Putin?
    HYUFD loves his men big, strong and populist right :lol:
    Putin is small.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    TGOHF said:

    Cummings to deliver Brexit then leave - what will the moaner wets moan about then ?

    Comrade..if you think the situation will be resolved by us falling out the EU after Halloween you are truly delusional....

    This fucking nonsense is going to permeate our lives for the next decade or so..further elections and referendum. Brexit really is bollox
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    Scott_P said:
    Great. Back to Michael Howard "Prison Works" bollocks.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    stodge said:



    No. But it is an interesting indication of how fragile our systems are and how vulnerable they are to unexpected events.

    The one I know I bore everyone silly with is a Carrington event. If we get a big solar flare heading our way then our power supply chain has two choices. The sensible one is to isolate all our power generation systems from the grid so they don't get a massive power surge that burns out the generators. The other is to not isolate them and so we lose much of our generation equipment.

    Trouble is, as we have seen today, isolating all our generating equipment will of course cause countrywide power cuts and absolute chaos. Our whole society is far too reliant upon centrally generated electricity. This will only get worse as we move away from domestic gas.

    From what I can gather, the power failure lasted 12-15 minutes but it knocked out all the signalling on the LNER lines from Kings X and for a huge area north. That is what has paralysed the transport network and I suspect the same may be true on other rail lines.

    I agree it illustrates the vulnerability of aspects of our infrastructure so why is there no money for that but there is money for tax cuts?
    Modern networks (comms, transport, whatever) are incredibly robust but also, perversely, incredibly fragile. They cope with massive amounts of traffic, but the amount of traffic means that there is precious little headroom for when problems occur, and the consequences are severe.

    And this has always been the case: when I was in London 25 years ago, a large part of the tube network got knocked out for a couple of days due to a power problem that they eventually traced to (from memory) Lots Road power station. Part of the problem was actually finding out where the failure was.

    As for spending money: as money is limited, it becomes a question of where you spend it. Modern networks are so complex that that becomes a very difficult question to answer, especially wrt redundancy.

    This situation is only going to get worse: we are going to get increasingly better services from our infrastructure, but the effects when it fails will be increasingly dire. As an example, imagine if GPS/Glosnass was to go down now, compared to ten years ago ...
    Is London getting a taste of what it's been like in the back of beyond since electricity privatisation? Four power cuts in the last year. None very long, fortunately. Three or four a year are probably about average, not often more than 12 hours. But our 4-day loss of supply in October 2002 would have caused riots if it had affected London.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    *) The National Grid (particularly the load-balancing parts) is rarely heard of - except today - but it really needs congratulating on the way It Just Works (tm). They've done a brilliant job over the decades, and are even coping with the rather difficult task of changing back from a few massive points of generation to many distributed points of low-power generation.

    We visited one of the control centres when I was a student. Fascinating stuff

    *) The supply system is very prone to terrorism and/or climate and/or a Carrington-style event. There are some pieces of kit (e.g. large transformers) that are like hens-teeth; they are essentially made-to-order. If there is ever even a minor catastrophe, these are bottlenecks in the system. I'd like to see more of a strategic reserve of such things, and standards for them between the (few) suppliers.

    I knew some folks that worked at Peebles in Edinburgh. I even interviewed for a job there.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Brexit Britain:


    "Harriet Jackson, 26, said there was an "apocalyptic" scene on Northcote Road, in Battersea, when traffic lights cut out and cars were not stopping."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49300025
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060


    Is London getting a taste of what it's been like in the back of beyond since electricity privatisation? Four power cuts in the last year. None very long, fortunately. Three or four a year are probably about average, not often more than 12 hours. But our 4-day loss of supply in October 2002 would have caused riots if it had affected London.

    I'm no fan of privatisation but here in deepest darkest Wales I think I can remember 2 power cut lasting about half an hour in the 8 years I've lived here.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tyson said:

    TGOHF said:

    Cummings to deliver Brexit then leave - what will the moaner wets moan about then ?

    Comrade..if you think the situation will be resolved by us falling out the EU after Halloween you are truly delusional....

    This fucking nonsense is going to permeate our lives for the next decade or so..further elections and referendum. Brexit really is bollox
    Will be out one way of the other by 31st.

    Then we can dispense with 3.5 years of dithering.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Power cuts will only increase if we continue to rely on wind and solar.

    More nuclear should have been planned.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    edited August 2019
    Scott_P said:


    I knew some folks that worked at Peebles in Edinburgh. I even interviewed for a job there.

    Is that not Peebles near Edinburgh (23 miles south)?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,900
    CatMan said:

    Scott_P said:
    Great. Back to Michael Howard "Prison Works" bollocks.
    Yes but it's what the Conservative core vote (and indeed the Brexit Party core vote) likes as well irrespective of how we know re-offending rates are affected and of course the cost of imprisoning someone (or 10,000 someones) isn't small and may eat into the money available for tax cuts.

    It's all part of the Johnson election campaign - another piece of red meat for the Tory faithful.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    England and Scotland as modern European nations, using the Euro, proud neighbors and close friends, as part of the EU isn’t such a bad vision really.

    It’s a nice vision but I don’t think England and Scotland will ever be “friends”. Nations have interests, not friendships, they cooperate when it is in their interest and don’t when it doesn’t. Given the Scots, like the Irish, are, to put it mildly, it the greatest fans of the English that will be true with Scotland and England as well. Let’s not get dewy eyed about it.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,572
    edited August 2019



    Modern networks (comms, transport, whatever) are incredibly robust but also, perversely, incredibly fragile. They cope with massive amounts of traffic, but the amount of traffic means that there is precious little headroom for when problems occur, and the consequences are severe.

    And this has always been the case: when I was in London 25 years ago, a large part of the tube network got knocked out for a couple of days due to a power problem that they eventually traced to (from memory) Lots Road power station. Part of the problem was actually finding out where the failure was.

    As for spending money: as money is limited, it becomes a question of where you spend it. Modern networks are so complex that that becomes a very difficult question to answer, especially wrt redundancy.

    This situation is only going to get worse: we are going to get increasingly better services from our infrastructure, but the effects when it fails will be increasingly dire. As an example, imagine if GPS/Glosnass was to go down now, compared to ten years ago ...

    And of course we are making ourselves more and more reliant upon a single type of energy - electricity. Thirty years ago if the country had no electricity then we still had petrol cars and diesel trains as well as gas and coal for heating and cooking. Look forward 30 years to a time when we plan to have nothing but electric cars and trains, when the use of open fires is severely limited or the fuel non existent and when we no longer have domestic piped gas.

    Taking away our electricity for several days under those circumstances would be catastrophic.
    I agree. Two points I'd like to make about this:

    *) The National Grid (particularly the load-balancing parts) is rarely heard of - except today - but it really needs congratulating on the way It Just Works (tm). They've done a brilliant job over the decades, and are even coping with the rather difficult task of changing back from a few massive points of generation to many distributed points of low-power generation.

    *) The supply system is very prone to terrorism and/or climate and/or a Carrington-style event. There are some pieces of kit (e.g. large transformers) that are like hens-teeth; they are essentially made-to-order. If there is ever even a minor catastrophe, these are bottlenecks in the system. I'd like to see more of a strategic reserve of such things, and standards for them between the (few) suppliers.
    I understood that there are very few companies in the world who can make the very large transformers needed for power stations and the lead times are measured in years.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    CatMan said:

    Scott_P said:
    Great. Back to Michael Howard "Prison Works" bollocks.
    Populism.....

    The Tories have stealthily reduced prison populations significantly.

    Brexit populism bears as much resemblance to traditional Toryism as Gove does to Brad Pitt....
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038



    Modern networks (comms, transport, whatever) are incredibly robust but also, perversely, incredibly fragile. They cope with massive amounts of traffic, but the amount of traffic means that there is precious little headroom for when problems occur, and the consequences are severe.

    And this has always been the case: when I was in London 25 years ago, a large part of the tube network got knocked out for a couple of days due to a power problem that they eventually traced to (from memory) Lots Road power station. Part of the problem was actually finding out where the failure was.

    As for spending money: as money is limited, it becomes a question of where you spend it. Modern networks are so complex that that becomes a very difficult question to answer, especially wrt redundancy.

    This situation is only going to get worse: we are going to get increasingly better services from our infrastructure, but the effects when it fails will be increasingly dire. As an example, imagine if GPS/Glosnass was to go down now, compared to ten years ago ...

    And of course we are making ourselves more and more reliant upon a single type of energy - electricity. Thirty years ago if the country had no electricity then we still had petrol cars and diesel trains as well as gas and coal for heating and cooking. Look forward 30 years to a time when we plan to have nothing but electric cars and trains, when the use of open fires is severely limited or the fuel non existent and when we no longer have domestic piped gas.

    Taking away our electricity for several days under those circumstances would be catastrophic.
    It's an insane energy policy. There are expert engineers and scientists battling against it and pointing out that other countries aren't going down exactly the same path of total reliance on electricity (as opposed to storable fuels). However, the basic details were virtually set in stone by Ed Miliband (Energy Secretary) and DECC's then Chief Scientist 11-12 years ago. We now seem to be suffering from national groupthink. If you point out the weaknesses in the all-electric concept, you're a heretic and you get dismissed or ignored. You certainly don't get any govt funding.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,707

    Is London getting a taste of what it's been like in the back of beyond since electricity privatisation? Four power cuts in the last year. None very long, fortunately. Three or four a year are probably about average, not often more than 12 hours. But our 4-day loss of supply in October 2002 would have caused riots if it had affected London.

    Here's a bet: it's nowt to do with privatisation, and it you take a rolling average, it'll be about the wrt outages in rural areas.

    A telecoms anecdote: ten or so years ago I was walking in mid-Wales, and at a B&B I met a group of BT/Openreach engineers from the northeast. The company had a policy of sending engineers from one area to another for a couple of weeks every so often. Hence some engineers who were used to doing work in inner-city Newcastle were in the arse end of beyond. They joked they hardly remembered how to get the ladders off their vehicles!

    This was an example of great (and fairly cheap) redundancy: getting thee engineers used to working in other areas in case they're ever needed, and getting infrequently-used skills honed.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    TGOHF said:

    Power cuts will only increase if we continue to rely on wind and solar.

    More nuclear should have been planned.

    Wind is providing about 33% of the UK's power at the moment.

    https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    Power cuts will only increase if we continue to rely on wind and solar.

    More nuclear should have been planned.

    Wind is providing about 33% of the UK's power at the moment.

    https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk
    Let it blow, let it blow, let it blow.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    geoffw said:

    Is that not Peebles near Edinburgh (23 miles south)?

    :)

    Parsons Peebles as it was in those days

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Peebles_&_Co._Ltd.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,707


    I understood that there are very few companies in the world who can make the very large transformers needed for power stations and the lead times are measured in years.

    That is my understanding.

    And transport alone is a problem. When a power station my brother was intimately acquainted with had a problem a few years back, a generator had to be flown from the US into Prestwick on an Antonov, and then trucked down to the Midlands. It could not be taken on a smaller plane because it was a heavy point-load.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    tyson said:

    TGOHF said:

    Cummings to deliver Brexit then leave - what will the moaner wets moan about then ?

    Comrade..if you think the situation will be resolved by us falling out the EU after Halloween you are truly delusional....

    This fucking nonsense is going to permeate our lives for the next decade or so..further elections and referendum. Brexit really is bollox
    Yes, the crap is going to continue Leave or Remain.

    How do culture wars finally end? exhaustion or extinction, or does it need external threat?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    TGOHF said:

    Power cuts will only increase if we continue to rely on wind and solar.

    More nuclear should have been planned.

    Just two tidal barrages would have powered all the homes in Wales.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    TGOHF said:

    tyson said:

    TGOHF said:

    Cummings to deliver Brexit then leave - what will the moaner wets moan about then ?

    Comrade..if you think the situation will be resolved by us falling out the EU after Halloween you are truly delusional....

    This fucking nonsense is going to permeate our lives for the next decade or so..further elections and referendum. Brexit really is bollox
    Will be out one way of the other by 31st.

    Then we can dispense with 3.5 years of dithering.

    And then into a decade of dithering as we fail to secure advantageous trade agreements and still have to negotiate with the EU over what we actually want from a trade relationship with them.

  • Awb683Awb683 Posts: 80
    Brexit will be just fine.

    Can't wait!!
  • CatMan said:

    Scott_P said:
    Great. Back to Michael Howard "Prison Works" bollocks.
    Prison does work for serial offenders.

    It should not be used for stuff that should not be offences like drugs and other consensual activities.

    There is a balance to be drawn. We need to liberalise laws, legalise cannabis, avoid prison where possible - but for serial offenders who break the laws we do have then prison absolutely can be appropriate.

    Our short sentences we have now primarily are a nonsense. There are a lot of people imprisoned for short sentences who shouldn't be imprisoned at all . . . and there are a lot of people imprisoned for short sentences who should be imprisoned much, much longer.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2019
    OnboardG1 said:

    TGOHF said:

    tyson said:

    TGOHF said:

    Cummings to deliver Brexit then leave - what will the moaner wets moan about then ?

    Comrade..if you think the situation will be resolved by us falling out the EU after Halloween you are truly delusional....

    This fucking nonsense is going to permeate our lives for the next decade or so..further elections and referendum. Brexit really is bollox
    Will be out one way of the other by 31st.

    Then we can dispense with 3.5 years of dithering.

    And then into a decade of dithering as we fail to secure advantageous trade agreements and still have to negotiate with the EU over what we actually want from a trade relationship with them.

    So what? Canada regularly talks with the USA about what sort of trade and other deals they have. But they're not ruled by Trump and are their own free country. Is that awful in your eyes?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    HYUFD 's point above about a big reduction in LDs tactical voting for LAB is spot on. That will be reduced markedly.

    I think the next UK GE in Scotland is going to be the most “honest” for decades. Tactical voting will be minimal, which is counterintuitive as England adopts it big time.

    Pro-Union (UK)/pro-Union (EU) people are going to vote Lib Dem.
    Tories are going to vote Tory.
    Pro-self-government-inclined people are going to vote SNP.
    Batshit crazy English nationalists are going to vote Brexit Party.
    Vote-Labour-even-if-the-candidate-is-a-donkey people are going to largely sit on the sofa and try to pretend that this ain’t happening.

    This spells disaster for SLab and SCons, and big smiles for Nicola and Jo.
    Considering 38% of Scots voted for Brexit how will they split?
    Only 25% think it was still right to vote Leave (this week’s YouGov). So, about 20% SCon and 5% batshit crazy English nationalist.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited August 2019
    The pound is at its lowest level against the euro since 2008 and dropping like a stone. It's gone from 1.18 pre Johnson three weeks ago to 1.07 now. I hope the whole of Hartlepool are on the Costa Brava. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is certifiable.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    OnboardG1 said:

    TGOHF said:

    tyson said:

    TGOHF said:

    Cummings to deliver Brexit then leave - what will the moaner wets moan about then ?

    Comrade..if you think the situation will be resolved by us falling out the EU after Halloween you are truly delusional....

    This fucking nonsense is going to permeate our lives for the next decade or so..further elections and referendum. Brexit really is bollox
    Will be out one way of the other by 31st.

    Then we can dispense with 3.5 years of dithering.

    And then into a decade of dithering as we fail to secure advantageous trade agreements and still have to negotiate with the EU over what we actually want from a trade relationship with them.

    Chicken Licken seems to be the god of this weird new religion.

  • Roger said:

    The pound is at its lowest level against the euro since 2008 and dropping like a stone. It's gone from 1.18 pre Johnson three weeks ago to 1.07 now. I hope the whole of Hartlepool are on the Costa Brava. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is certifiable.

    How low do you think it will go?

    I suggested €0.80 earlier.


  • Modern networks (comms, transport, whatever) are incredibly robust but also, perversely, incredibly fragile. They cope with massive amounts of traffic, but the amount of traffic means that there is precious little headroom for when problems occur, and the consequences are severe.

    And this has always been the case: when I was in London 25 years ago, a large part of the tube network got knocked out for a couple of days due to a power problem that they eventually traced to (from memory) Lots Road power station. Part of the problem was actually finding out where the failure was.

    As for spending money: as money is limited, it becomes a question of where you spend it. Modern networks are so complex that that becomes a very difficult question to answer, especially wrt redundancy.

    This situation is only going to get worse: we are going to get increasingly better services from our infrastructure, but the effects when it fails will be increasingly dire. As an example, imagine if GPS/Glosnass was to go down now, compared to ten years ago ...

    And of course we are making ourselves more and more reliant upon a single type of energy - electricity. Thirty years ago if the country had no electricity then we still had petrol cars and diesel trains as well as gas and coal for heating and cooking. Look forward 30 years to a time when we plan to have nothing but electric cars and trains, when the use of open fires is severely limited or the fuel non existent and when we no longer have domestic piped gas.

    Taking away our electricity for several days under those circumstances would be catastrophic.
    It's an insane energy policy. There are expert engineers and scientists battling against it and pointing out that other countries aren't going down exactly the same path of total reliance on electricity (as opposed to storable fuels). However, the basic details were virtually set in stone by Ed Miliband (Energy Secretary) and DECC's then Chief Scientist 11-12 years ago. We now seem to be suffering from national groupthink. If you point out the weaknesses in the all-electric concept, you're a heretic and you get dismissed or ignored. You certainly don't get any govt funding.
    So which countries aren't shifting away from supplying energy in forms other than electricity?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Roger said:

    The pound is at its lowest level against the euro since 2008 and dropping like a stone. It's gone from 1.18 pre Johnson three weeks ago to 1.07 now. I hope the whole of Hartlepool are on the Costa Brava. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is certifiable.

    They are all on Staycations Rog - they are far more environmentally conscious than you.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    HYUFD 's point above about a big reduction in LDs tactical voting for LAB is spot on. That will be reduced markedly.

    I think the next UK GE in Scotland is going to be the most “honest” for decades. Tactical voting will be minimal, which is counterintuitive as England adopts it big time.

    Pro-Union (UK)/pro-Union (EU) people are going to vote Lib Dem.
    Tories are going to vote Tory.
    Pro-self-government-inclined people are going to vote SNP.
    Batshit crazy English nationalists are going to vote Brexit Party.
    Vote-Labour-even-if-the-candidate-is-a-donkey people are going to largely sit on the sofa and try to pretend that this ain’t happening.

    This spells disaster for SLab and SCons, and big smiles for Nicola and Jo.
    Stuart, who do you think the 1,018,322 (38%) of Scots who voted for Brexit will vote for? Just out of interest.
    That 38% is down to 25% in this week’s YouGov. 20% SCon and 5% Brexit Party. Give or take.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    edited August 2019
    AndyJS said:

    Brexit Britain:


    "Harriet Jackson, 26, said there was an "apocalyptic" scene on Northcote Road, in Battersea, when traffic lights cut out and cars were not stopping."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49300025

    Ha ha. Lived off Northcote Road 1987-8 whilst a student. 5 lads in a grotty terrace, no central heating and a 50p electric meter in the cellar.
    Now worth £1.3 million.
    I take it Victor Value isn't the local supermarket anymore.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I understood that there are very few companies in the world who can make the very large transformers needed for power stations and the lead times are measured in years.

    Peebles were one of those companies. Sadly, no more
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    And transport alone is a problem. When a power station my brother was intimately acquainted with had a problem a few years back, a generator had to be flown from the US into Prestwick on an Antonov, and then trucked down to the Midlands. It could not be taken on a smaller plane because it was a heavy point-load.

    I drove past these traffic islands every day for years and didn't know this

    http://www.grantonhistory.org/industry/bruce_peebles.htm
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    TGOHF said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    TGOHF said:

    tyson said:

    TGOHF said:

    Cummings to deliver Brexit then leave - what will the moaner wets moan about then ?

    Comrade..if you think the situation will be resolved by us falling out the EU after Halloween you are truly delusional....

    This fucking nonsense is going to permeate our lives for the next decade or so..further elections and referendum. Brexit really is bollox
    Will be out one way of the other by 31st.

    Then we can dispense with 3.5 years of dithering.

    And then into a decade of dithering as we fail to secure advantageous trade agreements and still have to negotiate with the EU over what we actually want from a trade relationship with them.

    Chicken Licken seems to be the god of this weird new religion.

    As opposed to unicorns in your little death cult?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Roger said:

    The pound is at its lowest level against the euro since 2008 and dropping like a stone. It's gone from 1.18 pre Johnson three weeks ago to 1.07 now. I hope the whole of Hartlepool are on the Costa Brava. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is certifiable.

    Great innit! But there again I export two thirds of my production.
This discussion has been closed.