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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,885

    Prison does work for serial offenders.

    It should not be used for stuff that should not be offences like drugs and other consensual activities.

    There is a balance to be drawn. We need to liberalise laws, legalise cannabis, avoid prison where possible - but for serial offenders who break the laws we do have then prison absolutely can be appropriate.

    Our short sentences we have now primarily are a nonsense. There are a lot of people imprisoned for short sentences who shouldn't be imprisoned at all . . . and there are a lot of people imprisoned for short sentences who should be imprisoned much, much longer.
    Agree with most of that. Would add. There are an awful lot of people in prison who really would be better off getting mental health treatment. And I don't just mean handed out some anti-depressants.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,997

    Prison does work for serial offenders.

    It should not be used for stuff that should not be offences like drugs and other consensual activities.

    There is a balance to be drawn. We need to liberalise laws, legalise cannabis, avoid prison where possible - but for serial offenders who break the laws we do have then prison absolutely can be appropriate.

    Our short sentences we have now primarily are a nonsense. There are a lot of people imprisoned for short sentences who shouldn't be imprisoned at all . . . and there are a lot of people imprisoned for short sentences who should be imprisoned much, much longer.
    Agree 100%
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    OnboardG1 said:

    As opposed to unicorns in your little death cult?
    Unicorns = permanent horn - what’s not to like.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    TGOHF said:
    Just as I wrote yesterday: one way or the other, SLab are going to have to dial back on the Union Jackery. One way to do that of course is to advocate the abolition of the United Kingdom. In comparison, the SNP are moderates: we only want its dissolution.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    Scott_P said:

    I drove past these traffic islands every day for years and didn't know this

    http://www.grantonhistory.org/industry/bruce_peebles.htm
    I remember that fire when I was a kid. You could see it from our back garden a couple of miles away.

    Another issue is the closure of the High Voltage labs in various universities. Strathclyde still has one but it's pretty weedy. Heriot-Watt had the beefiest for a long time (supplied by a dedicated multi-KV line in from the nearby transformer station) but that closed a few years ago. I think Southampton still has one with a bit of oomph. It means that reasearch into insulating materials is very difficult to conduct. I had a lot of bother trying to research transformer failure for my masters because I couldn't get equipment to do HALT testing.
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124
    Scott_P said:
    That headline translated for anywhere outside the M25: " A Bit Blowy Out; London Commuters On Verge Of Cannibalism.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Just as I wrote yesterday: one way or the other, SLab are going to have to dial back on the Union Jackery. One way to do that of course is to advocate the abolition of the United Kingdom. In comparison, the SNP are moderates: we only want its dissolution.
    He’s advocating the dissolution of Scotland.

  • dixiedean said:

    Agree with most of that. Would add. There are an awful lot of people in prison who really would be better off getting mental health treatment. And I don't just mean handed out some anti-depressants.
    Completely agree.

    Prison should be used to isolate people who can't or won't be able to stop themselves from offending. Measuring whether prison works by recidivism rates is the failure. Prison doesn't reduce recidivism. But while someone is behind bars they are not offending.

    Barring exceptional circumstances [murder etc] where it is required to punish people that should be the primary purpose of prison and it should only be used in that context - is the person we are incarcerating going to be continuing to offend if we don't incarcerate them? If no, don't incarcerate them.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,293

    How low do you think it will go?

    I suggested €0.80 earlier.
    This is the lowest I've ever known it. It's not great for those of us who have a place in the euro zone. It's bad enough that the rest of the world thinks we're barking without being impoverished by our new ultra right leaders
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    edited August 2019
    TGOHF said:

    Unicorns = permanent horn - what’s not to like.
    The level of middle class (metropolitan biased) bedwetting on here over the past week has reached hilarious levels.

    Truly, if the four horsemen of the apocalypse and the slaughter of the first born are not well underway within 24 hours of leaving I shall be amazed.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    We're all the way through the looking glass now.

    I'm almost nostalgic for the days when Unionists relentlessly told us that a seceding Scotland would definitely NOT be allowed to use the £, would HAVE to use the Euro, but that the EU wouldn't want us anyway and the only way to guarantee continuing membership was to vote NO.
    Happy days.
    Modern English society and politics would be way too trippy for Lewis Carroll.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    TGOHF said:

    Unicorns = permanent horn - what’s not to like.
    Over five hours is a medical emergency.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,239

    That 38% is down to 25% in this week’s YouGov. 20% SCon and 5% Brexit Party. Give or take.
    So 13% of Scots (who were also Brexit voters) have died? Jeez, I knew Scottish life expectency was bad but.....
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,121

    Agree 100%
    Prison is only effective for the 98% odd of the population or so who really would not want to go there..

    For the 1 or 2% who have anything to do with it...inmates, employees etc...it really is a waste of space, resources and achieves next to nothing...except a deterrence for the 98% who do not want to go there.

    There are probably only though a about 2,000 people or so in the UK at any one time who really need to be detained for public safety. The majority of these though are safely housed in psychiatric units, or solitary confinement in the cat A's- and most of these are detained under mental health legislation rather than criminal legislation
  • Roger said:

    This is the lowest I've ever known it. It's not great for those of us who have a place in the euro zone. It's bad enough that the rest of the world thinks we're barking without being impoverished by our new ultra right leaders
    I'm sorry but I don't think the priority for our country should be people who choose to earn an income in one currency and spend it in another. If it sucks for you then sucks to be you but you are an exception and that was your choice and your free will.

    By and large if you live overseas and work overseas you will be paid overseas and so this will not be such a big deal.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    welshowl said:

    The level of middle class (metropolitan biased) bedwetting on here over the past week has reached hilarious levels.

    Truly, if the four horsemen of the apocalypse and the slaughter of the first born are not well underway within 24 hours of leaving I shall be amazed.
    It is a religion. Like believing in apocalyptic man made climate change.

    A fetish about the end of the world - it’s dysfunctional.

  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    So which countries aren't shifting away from supplying energy in forms other than electricity?
    It'll shift towards electricity especially for road transport but 100% is silly. ~40-50% would be more defensible, up from 18-20% right now. Electric cement-making, anyone?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    TGOHF said:

    He’s advocating the dissolution of Scotland.

    Correct.

    As I said: SLab are extremists; the SNP are moderates.
  • Sean_F said:

    No, it's more that he opposed Brexit, but thinks if there must be Brexit, then it should be a clean break.
    Bat

    Shit

    Crazy
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Roger said:

    This is the lowest I've ever known it. It's not great for those of us who have a place in the euro zone. It's bad enough that the rest of the world thinks we're barking without being impoverished by our new ultra right leaders
    There again if you own “your place” it will have gone up by around a third in sterling value if your 1.18 (wrong- it wasn’t that two weeks ago, but let’s let that pass) to 0.8 comes to
    pass. So chin up, first world problems.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Modern English society and politics would be way too trippy for Lewis Carroll.
    Modern Scottish society and politics would be way too dystopian for George Orwell to be filed under fiction.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,293
    welshowl said:

    Great innit! But there again I export two thirds of my production.
    What have the Welsh produced apart from Dylan Thomas?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    TGOHF said:

    He’s advocating the dissolution of Scotland.

    Correct.

    As I said: SLab are extremists; the SNP are moderates.

    So 13% of Scots (who were also Brexit voters) have died? Jeez, I knew Scottish life expectency was bad but.....
    Err... there is a less final explanation: people *do* change their minds. In fact it is one of the pillars upon which democracy rests.
  • Zephyr said:

    Once we properly brexit, with all the money we save we will be able to keep up investment in infrastructure rather than skip investment because of our EU membership. So break downs because of iffy generators is not a taste of things to come.
    It's not a verb
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    I do wonder reading the comments of people who support a No Deal Brexit, if mass internment under the mental health act is required? They seem to relish the fact that the economy is going to be wrecked. Delusional thinking about the economy will go on functioning despite the market being fundamentally adjusted and not in a good way. Margaret Thatcher always maintained that you cannot buck the market and this in essence is what Brexiteers think they can do. Sterling will fall, business units will no longer be profitable and businesses will relocate.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,239

    Correct.

    As I said: SLab are extremists; the SNP are moderates. Err... there is a less final explanation: people *do* change their minds. In fact it is one of the pillars upon which democracy rests.
    Do SNP voters change their minds then?
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,121
    welshowl said:

    There again if you own “your place” it will have gone up by around a third in sterling value if your 1.18 (wrong- it wasn’t that two weeks ago, but let’s let that pass) to 0.8 comes to
    pass. So chin up, first world problems.
    I've got cash and assets in the EU so it doesn't matter. That's why recessions never effect people with assets unless they are idiots. Capitalism is all about making sure anyone who has a leg up stays that way.
  • tyson said:

    Prison is only effective for the 98% odd of the population or so who really would not want to go there..

    For the 1 or 2% who have anything to do with it...inmates, employees etc...it really is a waste of space, resources and achieves next to nothing...except a deterrence for the 98% who do not want to go there.

    There are probably only though a about 2,000 people or so in the UK at any one time who really need to be detained for public safety. The majority of these though are safely housed in psychiatric units, or solitary confinement in the cat A's- and most of these are detained under mental health legislation rather than criminal legislation
    Prison isn't or shouldn't be there for the people who are inmates. Prison should be there for the law abiding citizens by isolating the inmates and keeping us safe from them. Which is why it should be there as a last resort.

    As for 2,000 people it depends upon where you draw the line?

    When I was an MSc student I was nearly blinded in an unprovoked assault - the perpetuator was high as a kite, had a conviction list as long as his arm and the attack was caught on CCTV. He got prosecuted for GBH and got sentenced to 6 months in prison, he'd have been out after no more than 3 and probably less. I was lucky not to be blinded [I was in one eye for most of a week], had a shattered eye socket, broken nose and in extreme heat or cold get pains in my eye that I will have for the rest of my life. The attack could have been fatal but I doubt this guy even remembers what he did. Without knowing for certain I would bet you my bottom dollar I was not the last person he assaulted. Would you count him in your 2000?

    I object to people being imprisoned for drugs and other stuff. I would have no objection to people like that getting sentenced to years to keep the public safe from them.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Roger said:

    What have the Welsh produced apart from Dylan Thomas?
    Coal, Slate and a lot of sheep?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,293

    I'm sorry but I don't think the priority for our country should be people who choose to earn an income in one currency and spend it in another. If it sucks for you then sucks to be you but you are an exception and that was your choice and your free will.

    By and large if you live overseas and work overseas you will be paid overseas and so this will not be such a big deal.
    Do you have any idea how big our service sectors are? 70% of my work is either shot for overseas clients or shot abroad for British clients. Do you work?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,811
    edited August 2019
    tyson said:

    Prison is only effective for the 98% odd of the population or so who really would not want to go there..

    For the 1 or 2% who have anything to do with it...inmates, employees etc...it really is a waste of space, resources and achieves next to nothing...except a deterrence for the 98% who do not want to go there.

    There are probably only though a about 2,000 people or so in the UK at any one time who really need to be detained for public safety. The majority of these though are safely housed in psychiatric units, or solitary confinement in the cat A's- and most of these are detained under mental health legislation rather than criminal legislation
    The USA has a phenomenal incarceration rate, and bumps off murderers judicially fairly regularly, but is it safe?

    We have twice the prisoners per capita than most European countries, yet not noticeably safer.

    Douglas Hurd was unusually wise for a Tory when he described prison as "an expensive way of making bad people worse"

    Or we could take this approach: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-48885846
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    I do wonder reading the comments of people who support a No Deal Brexit, if mass internment under the mental health act is required? They seem to relish the fact that the economy is going to be wrecked. Delusional thinking about the economy will go on functioning despite the market being fundamentally adjusted and not in a good way. Margaret Thatcher always maintained that you cannot buck the market and this in essence is what Brexiteers think they can do. Sterling will fall, business units will no longer be profitable and businesses will relocate.

    Man up.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Roger said:

    What have the Welsh produced apart from Dylan Thomas?
    Why would you care? And there might lie the issue?
  • Roger said:

    Do you have any idea how big our service sectors are? 70% of my work is either shot for overseas clients or shot abroad for British clients. Do you work?
    Yes I work and yes I know the service sectors are large.

    Without prying if you work for overseas clients can you not charge overseas prices? A devalued currency then should let you earn more in pounds.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,121

    I do wonder reading the comments of people who support a No Deal Brexit, if mass internment under the mental health act is required? They seem to relish the fact that the economy is going to be wrecked. Delusional thinking about the economy will go on functioning despite the market being fundamentally adjusted and not in a good way. Margaret Thatcher always maintained that you cannot buck the market and this in essence is what Brexiteers think they can do. Sterling will fall, business units will no longer be profitable and businesses will relocate.

    Ideology trumps utilitarianism.......

    But, nationalist ideology..ie Brexit....is just nihilism, and perpetuated predominantly by older, white males
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    tyson said:

    I've got cash and assets in the EU so it doesn't matter. That's why recessions never effect people with assets unless they are idiots. Capitalism is all about making sure anyone who has a leg up stays that way.
    Look at JRM, he has a hedge fund that has been invested in non-sterling assets that will rise in value as sterling falls. The paradox with JRM is he is betting against Britain and has been incorporated into a cabinet run by a PM who said he wanted "those who bet against Britain to lose their shirts". After making this comment Johnson then appoints a man who bets against Britain to his cabinet FFS! Where were the opposition when this happened? Its not like nobody knows about JRM and the hedge fund.... :grey_question:
  • It'll shift towards electricity especially for road transport but 100% is silly. ~40-50% would be more defensible, up from 18-20% right now. Electric cement-making, anyone?
    Electricity accounts for a greater share of final energy supply than the UK in many countries due to our comprehensive domestic gas supply network. I'm pretty sure that France, Germany and Japan, for example, rely more heavily on electricity to distribute their energy than we do.
  • Coal, Slate and a lot of sheep?
    Bad attempts at Indian accents?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,130
    TGOHF said:

    Unicorns = permanent horn - what’s not to like.
    I'm not convinced that the ladies (or some gentlemen for that matter) would like something that pointy.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    Coal, Slate and a lot of sheep?
    No, no, and yes. But there again let’s just dismiss a far away people about whom we (apparently) know little. Hartlepool, Wales, dreadful places, can’t get olive oil I imagine...

    Christ, you lot have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing. 21st century Bourbons.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,885
    TGOHF said:

    It is a religion. Like believing in apocalyptic man made climate change.

    A fetish about the end of the world - it’s dysfunctional.

    You are referring to eschatology. Just love that word.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,121
    Foxy said:

    The USA has a phenomenal incarceration rate, and bumps off murderers judicially fairly regularly, but is it safe?

    We have twice the prisoners per capita than most European countries, yet not noticeably safer.

    Douglas Hurd was unusually wise for a Tory when he described prison as "an expensive way of making bad people worse"

    Or we could take this approach: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-48885846
    Anyone who is intimately involved in the judicial system wouldn't want to see more prisons built..end of.. conversely they would like to see quite a few obliterated....

    In this last month or so I've seen at least 7 prisons from the inside...a couple have been so bad that I doubted any amount of money or reform could turn them around
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Do SNP voters change their minds then?
    Not as often as Unionists need in order to win next time.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,293

    Yes I work and yes I know the service sectors are large.

    Without prying if you work for overseas clients can you not charge overseas prices? A devalued currency then should let you earn more in pounds.
    Of course. I charge in the currency of the country I'm working for unless it's somewhere with a soft currency where they pay in dollars or Euros. But do you think it's a good idea to have a currency that resembles the Egyptian pound or the Turkish Lira? Do we want third world status? It's really not a good look. I make money shooting ads not from a collapsing currency.

  • Look at JRM, he has a hedge fund that has been invested in non-sterling assets that will rise in value as sterling falls. The paradox with JRM is he is betting against Britain and has been incorporated into a cabinet run by a PM who said he wanted "those who bet against Britain to lose their shirts". After making this comment Johnson then appoints a man who bets against Britain to his cabinet FFS! Where were the opposition when this happened? Its not like nobody knows about JRM and the hedge fund.... :grey_question:

    Anybody with any semblance of a balanced portfolio will be invested in non-sterling assets along with UK exposure.

    Using this as an argument against JRM is a stretch at best but may be useful for more low information types looking to have prejudices reinforced.



  • geoffw said:



    Let it blow, let it blow, let it blow.
    Unfortunatly this is not so much a problem of generation type but of the basic reliance on one form of energy which is very susceptible to disruption.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited August 2019

    Scotland having austerity imposed upon us will certainly be a novelty.
    You just don’t understand Jocko:

    1. English folk being dictated to = bad
    2. Scottish folk being dictated to = good
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,513
    TGOHF said:
    Imagine there’s no Scottish Labour
    It isn’t hard to do
  • wf1954wf1954 Posts: 16
    Roger said:

    The pound is at its lowest level against the euro since 2008 and dropping like a stone. It's gone from 1.18 pre Johnson three weeks ago to 1.07 now. I hope the whole of Hartlepool are on the Costa Brava. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is certifiable.

    Not exactly, it was not at "1.18 pre Johnson", it was 1.11 three weeks ago. It has not been at 1.18 at anytime in the last year, although it did nearly get there in March and again in May : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cx250jmk4e7t/pound-sterling-gbp
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Roger said:

    Of course. I charge in the currency of the country I'm working for unless it's somewhere with a soft currency where they pay in dollars or Euros. But do you think it's a good idea to have a currency that resembles the Egyptian pound or the Turkish Lira? Do we want third world status? It's really not a good look. I make money shooting ads not from a collapsing currency.
    So why on earth are you whinging about the Pound and having your usual dig at Hartlepool and Wales? Don’t they count in your world? Not the “right sort”? Not entitled to their view? I’m sure there’s a deal to be had on barbed wire at B and Q so you can fence us all off, and avoid the smell.


  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    Roger said:

    Do you have any idea how big our service sectors are? 70% of my work is either shot for overseas clients or shot abroad for British clients. Do you work?
    Roger - do you think the Brexiteers care? They would happily lose a leg (or even better, your leg) if it delivers their precious Brexit. When it all goes pear-shaped, they will blame everyone but themselves.
  • tyson said:

    Anyone who is intimately involved in the judicial system wouldn't want to see more prisons built..end of.. conversely they would like to see quite a few obliterated....

    In this last month or so I've seen at least 7 prisons from the inside...a couple have been so bad that I doubted any amount of money or reform could turn them around
    Interesting quote from an article linked to below - about once a year the Norwegian Prison Service send people on a fact-finding mission to British prisons, with the staff usually coming back aghast, esentially, it seems, so that they don't forget what *not* to do.

    Astounding.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    DougSeal said:

    It’s a nice vision but I don’t think England and Scotland will ever be “friends”. Nations have interests, not friendships, they cooperate when it is in their interest and don’t when it doesn’t. Given the Scots, like the Irish, are, to put it mildly, not the greatest fans of the English that will be true with Scotland and England as well. Let’s not get dewy eyed about it.
    Dewy-eyed romanticism is all that’s left for Unionists to cling onto. The Better Together (sic) barf-fest was full of soppy drivel.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,811

    Anybody with any semblance of a balanced portfolio will be invested in non-sterling assets along with UK exposure.

    Using this as an argument against JRM is a stretch at best but may be useful for more low information types looking to have prejudices reinforced.



    Well of course anyone who can has their assets safe, or hedgd in foreign currency. Certainly I have done so.

    Indeed, there is the risk of loss if Brexit doesn't go through...
  • Roger said:

    Of course. I charge in the currency of the country I'm working for unless it's somewhere with a soft currency where they pay in dollars or Euros. But do you think it's a good idea to have a currency that resembles the Egyptian pound or the Turkish Lira? Do we want third world status? It's really not a good look. I make money shooting ads not from a collapsing currency.
    It's not third world. A freely floating currency is a natural shock absorber and yes I think it is a good idea and I couldn't care about the look.

    It's like driving a car then complaining because the suspension is doing its job.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Roger - do you think the Brexiteers care? They would happily lose a leg (or even better, your leg) if it delivers their precious Brexit. When it all goes pear-shaped, they will blame everyone but themselves.
    Patrick Minford, the leading Brexiteer economist claimed in a DT column today, that the economy is suffering because Brexit is not pure enough. These people just cannot accept the reality that fundamentally changing a market as they wish will hit the economy. It goes against the basics of economic theory and yet they spout this nonsense...
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Imagine there’s no Scottish Labour
    It isn’t hard to do
    Brexit is a concept
    By which we measure
    Our pain

    I'll say it again
    Brexit is a concept
    By which we measure
    Our pain

    I don't believe in straight bananas
    I don't believe in red passports
    I don't believe in trade
    I don't believe in Strasbourg
    I don't believe in Barnier
    I don't believe in Thatcher
    I don't believe in immigration
    I don't believe in peace
    I don't believe in wealth
    I don't believe in reason
    I don't believe in Parliament
    I don't believe in kings
    I don't believe in the Good Friday Agreement
    I don't believe in Cameron
    I don't believe in conservatism
    I just believe in me
    Boris and me
    And that's reality
  • Foxy said:

    Well of course anyone who can has their assets safe, or hedgd in foreign currency. Certainly I have done so.

    Indeed, there is the risk of loss if Brexit doesn't go through...
    So what's the problem?

    People who earn in sterling and spend in sterling are fine.
    People who earn abroad are fine.
    People who have diversified are fine.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    So what's the problem?

    People who earn in sterling and spend in sterling are fine.
    People who earn abroad are fine.
    People who have diversified are fine.
    People who earn in sterling and spend in sterling are not fine. You cannot continue to devalue the currency without consequences.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192

    Patrick Minford, the leading Brexiteer economist claimed in a DT column today, that the economy is suffering because Brexit is not pure enough. These people just cannot accept the reality that fundamentally changing a market as they wish will hit the economy. It goes against the basics of economic theory and yet they spout this nonsense...
    :+1:

    A lot of economic theory appears to be nonsense so that may be a contributing factor ;)

    Brexiteers are no different from Marxists purging the Party of those not pure enough to be "proper" Marxists.

    Revolutions tend to eat the revolutionaries.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    So what's the problem?

    People who earn in sterling and spend in sterling are fine.
    People who earn abroad are fine.
    People who have diversified are fine.
    The musicians of the RMS Titanic all perished when the ship sank in 1912. They played music, intending to calm the passengers, for as long as they possibly could, and all went down with the ship. All were recognised for their heroism.

    Your medal’s in the post Philip.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,885

    Patrick Minford, the leading Brexiteer economist claimed in a DT column today, that the economy is suffering because Brexit is not pure enough. These people just cannot accept the reality that fundamentally changing a market as they wish will hit the economy. It goes against the basics of economic theory and yet they spout this nonsense...
    Maybe he ought to adapt his expectations to something more rational...economics joke.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Is it possible for Brexit to make sense politically but not economically?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,935
    edited August 2019
    Interesting point of view here, although I remain to be fully convinced ; the author's line, essentially, seems to be that Cummings is using his own profile and threat of bypassing parliament to force parliament to lock out or delay a no-deal, and then hold an election after that delay, on a "remain politicians versus the people" ticket.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/economics-and-finance/dominic-cummings-smokescreen-disguise-real-brexit-plan-election-parliament-boris-johnson

    "Unless Johnson wants to go down in history as the prime minister with the shortest-ever tenure, he will not take the risk of holding an election soon after a no-deal Brexit. The only electoral strategy that has a chance of working is to hold it before, when Leave voters can still travel in hope. For all his desperado “do or die” talk, the prime minister is banking on MPs preventing a no-deal departure when they return in early September, whether through legislative means or a vote of no confidence that enables a temporary “letter-writing” government to ask the EU for an extension of the exit deadline.

    In an ensuing election, that will enable Johnson to mount his “people versus parliament” populist campaign. That may not work, since general elections tend to defy attempts to confine them to one overriding issue. Heath sought to focus the February 1974 poll on “Who governs Britain?”; the answer was: not you. Even so, a pre-Brexit election is much more likely to pay off for Johnson than one held in the chaos of an actual no-deal Brexit."

    Cummings's past pragmatism on a deal and apparent hatred of the ERG would seem to point to this, too ; on the other hand the writer may have critically underestimated his one-eyed fanaticism to leave without a deal if it can't be reached.
  • Foxy said:



    Well of course anyone who can has their assets safe, or hedgd in foreign currency. Certainly I have done so.

    Indeed, there is the risk of loss if Brexit doesn't go through...

    If you believe Brexit is going to happen then NOT hedging your non-sterling exposure is the rational course of action.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,885

    :+1:

    A lot of economic theory appears to be nonsense so that may be a contributing factor ;)

    Brexiteers are no different from Marxists purging the Party of those not pure enough to be "proper" Marxists.

    Revolutions tend to eat the revolutionaries.
    The problem is economics is a young discipline. So, when you are young, you come out with groundbreaking new research. Times change, people adapt, economies and human beings change and move on. Minford is 83 and still living off stuff he did over 40 years ago.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,586

    Imagine there’s no Scottish Labour
    It isn’t hard to do
    You can say that again

    Apparently having no countries makes it easier to implement global socialism


    https://twitter.com/PaulJSweeney/status/1159091111224381441?s=20
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,811

    So what's the problem?

    People who earn in sterling and spend in sterling are fine.
    People who earn abroad are fine.
    People who have diversified are fine.
    Well, we will see how those who earn less and cannot hedge get on.

    The great irony is that Remainers are much better protected.
  • welshowl said:

    So why on earth are you whinging about the Pound and having your usual dig at Hartlepool and Wales? Don’t they count in your world? Not the “right sort”? Not entitled to their view? I’m sure there’s a deal to be had on barbed wire at B and Q so you can fence us all off, and avoid the smell.


    People like Roger and Tyson have no concept of real life. Nor do they care about normal people. They are far more condescending and dismissive of those less fortunate than themselves than the worst Eton educated fop.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    'It feels like the end of Labour as we know it' Scots party chief forced out as crisis deepens

    The dramatic development comes as the party is in freefall in Scotland, with senior figures openly fighting with each other...

    One senior source said: “It feels like this could be the end of Labour as we know it. Brian was the only one left who knows how to actually run and organise elections.

    “Some people looked down on him and felt he wasn’t that bright and was stuck in his ways.

    “But he’s a grafter and a fixer. He has also been a phenomenal survivor - up until now.

    “He’s also smarter than he gets credit for and you don’t need a degree in classics to run the Scottish Labour Party.”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/it-feels-like-end-labour-18875278.amp
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    edited August 2019
  • Foxy said:

    Well, we will see how those who earn less and cannot hedge get on.

    The great irony is that Remainers are much better protected.
    Remainers tend to be better off and have done well / feel more secure with the status quo of being within the EU for the last near 50 years. It is an illusion as the EU is changing and we don't know whether ever closer union will result in stability or instability.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    AndyJS said:

    Is it possible for Brexit to make sense politically but not economically?

    That sounds like self-doubt to me. The next stage is fear.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,586
    Warren takes the lead in new Democratic poll

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1159506518145982465?s=20
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,811
    edited August 2019

    Remainers tend to be better off and have done well / feel more secure with the status quo of being within the EU for the last near 50 years. It is an illusion as the EU is changing and we don't know whether ever closer union will result in stability or instability.
    Yes, hard to see any obvious Brexit benefits for the folk of the Welsh valleys or Hartlepool though. Brexit is just the new politics of envy.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    That sounds like self-doubt to me. The next stage is fear.
    I've always been fairly neutral on Brexit. I was just doing a thought experiment.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,874

    So what's the problem?

    People who earn in sterling and spend in sterling are fine.
    People who earn abroad are fine.
    People who have diversified are fine.
    I don't think you're as much of a moron as you pretend to be.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Foxy said:

    Well of course anyone who can has their assets safe, or hedgd in foreign currency. Certainly I have done so.

    Indeed, there is the risk of loss if Brexit doesn't go through...
    Yes if you have moved assets into $ and €, as I did after the referendum, there is a risk of loss if Brexit does not proceed. But I'd be happy to take a loss if this madness is reversed. I may not benefit financially from such a reversal but my childrens' future will be much richer and that is something beyond price.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Foxy said:

    Yes, hard to see any obvious Brexit benefits for the folk of the Welsh valleys or Hartlepool though. Brexit is just the new politics of envy.
    They will be able to elect and eject, democratically, those who make the laws that govern them. Remainers = affluent Tory snobs of the 19th century who resisted universal suffrage.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    AndyJS said:

    I've always been fairly neutral on Brexit. I was just doing a thought experiment.
    The answer is "Yes - it can make sense politically, but not economically". That is because not all politics make economic sense, e.g. some of the more radical versions of Marxism / Communism.

    Brexit is no different.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,586
    edited August 2019
    Byronic said:

    They will be able to elect and eject, democratically, those who make the laws that govern them. Remainers = affluent Tory snobs of the 19th century who resisted universal suffrage.
    Yes, diehard Remainers are now far more snobby than Tories, especially the London and South East ones
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    UK army combat units 40% below strength as recruitment plummets

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/09/uk-army-combat-units-40-below-strength-as-recruitment-plummets

    Never mind rooling the waves, Britannia would have trouble rooling Lough Neagh.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    Nice to see the Leavers are playing arbiters of who "ordinary people" are. Awa an boil yer heid as my granny would have said.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Byronic said:

    They will be able to elect and eject, democratically, those who make the laws that govern them. Remainers = affluent Tory snobs of the 19th century who resisted universal suffrage.
    This is a totally stupid comparison. It is like remainers complaining that Brexiteers are fascists. It isn't funny. It is just annoying. Please stop it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,885
    OnboardG1 said:

    Nice to see the Leavers are playing arbiters of who "ordinary people" are. Awa an boil yer heid as my granny would have said.

    Indeed. My portfolio doesn't exist. So I don't have to worry my little head about whether it is balanced or not.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,485
    Awb683 said:

    Brexit will be just fine.

    Can't wait!!

    Me neither!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,811
    Byronic said:

    They will be able to elect and eject, democratically, those who make the laws that govern them. Remainers = affluent Tory snobs of the 19th century who resisted universal suffrage.
    Not a very convincing Remain voter are you? Perhaps work on some better characterisation. You might find the works of one of the many novelists on PB.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Roger said:

    Of course. I charge in the currency of the country I'm working for unless it's somewhere with a soft currency where they pay in dollars or Euros. But do you think it's a good idea to have a currency that resembles the Egyptian pound or the Turkish Lira? Do we want third world status? It's really not a good look. I make money shooting ads not from a collapsing currency.

    You don’t work. You’re retired.
  • OnboardG1 said:

    Nice to see the Leavers are playing arbiters of who "ordinary people" are. Awa an boil yer heid as my granny would have said.

    If you think living pivileged lives in the South of France and Tuscany whilst scorning people living in Hartlepool or the Welsh Valleys makes Roger and Tyson 'ordinary' then you are an even bigger fuckwit than I took you for.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Foxy said:

    Not a very convincing Remain voter are you? Perhaps work on some better characterisation. You might find the works of one of the many novelists on PB.
    Painfully lame. Just, painful.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,586
    edited August 2019

    UK army combat units 40% below strength as recruitment plummets

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/09/uk-army-combat-units-40-below-strength-as-recruitment-plummets

    Never mind rooling the waves, Britannia would have trouble rooling Lough Neagh.

    'A spokesperson for the army said it was fully committed to improving its recruitment process and was working with Capita to address remaining challenges. “The army continues to meet all of its operational commitments to keep Britain safe.
    “Applications to join the army are at a five year high, with around 77,000 applications to join as a regular soldier alone in financial year 2018-19. We have also increased the enlistment to conversion rate from one in 10 to one in eight.”
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,811
    HYUFD said:

    'A spokesperson for the army said it was fully committed to improving its recruitment process and was working with Capita to address remaining challenges. “The army continues to meet all of its operational commitments to keep Britain safe.
    “Applications to join the army are at a five year high, with around 77,000 applications to join as a regular soldier alone in financial year 2018-19. We have also increased the enlistment to conversion rate from one in 10 to one in eight.”
    Yes, the problem with recruitment seems to be mostly the appalling privatisation of the process.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    nielh said:

    This is a totally stupid comparison. It is like remainers complaining that Brexiteers are fascists. It isn't funny. It is just annoying. Please stop it.

    It clearly worked and it clearly stung because it is clearly true. Oh so many Remainers would love to restrict the franchise to those with property, education, and status = Remainers. They’ve said it time and again. It is time to take them - you - at their word.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,885
    Not a good day for Prince Andrew. Dear me, can't have HM embarrassed. Shut this down and pretend it isn't happening ASAP.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/09/prince-andrew-court-documents-ghislaine-maxwell-jeffrey-epstein

  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589

    If you think living pivileged lives in the South of France and Tuscany whilst scorning people living in Hartlepool or the Welsh Valleys makes Roger and Tyson 'ordinary' then you are an even bigger fuckwit than I took you for.
    Who said anything about Roger? I was referring to Byronic's nonsense but the quote didn't work. It seems even PB isn't free of people who beat strawmen to death.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    dixiedean said:

    Indeed. My portfolio doesn't exist. So I don't have to worry my little head about whether it is balanced or not.
    Rather like my pension, thanks to my miserly arsehole of a boss. But that job looks like it'll explode into pieces if we can't ship to Europe without large tarrifs. Not that the armchair economists here give the slightest tuppeny fuck.
This discussion has been closed.