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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Plus ça change …..Boris’s first few days have followed TMay’s

SystemSystem Posts: 12,128
edited July 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Plus ça change …..Boris’s first few days have followed TMay’s 2016 footsteps

Less than a week is, of course, far too short a time to make a comparison, especially one which will infuriate Boris fans. Who cares? They have their man as PM. They can take a bit of teasing.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    First, to say great piece.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    And the parliamentary arithmetic is worse for Boris.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,459
    edited July 2019
    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    edited July 2019
    Fourth like Labour

    Credit to Cycle for a shorter piece with bullets, if still right justified
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    'The visits to adoring fans'

    I believe Boris is still intending a visit to Glasgow tomorrow avec cabinet.

    https://twitter.com/AngryScotland/status/889400054326452224
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    Very amusing piece. Why is it that PMs who get imposed upon us by party hacks - Gordon Brown, Theresa May, Boris Johnson - get much more grovelling, unquestioning media coverage than those actually voted in by general elections. There's something almost masochistic about it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    edited July 2019

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Didn't we see a string of billboards proclaiming "The UK will Leave the EU on March 29th?"
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470

    'The visits to adoring fans'

    I believe Boris is still intending a visit to Glasgow tomorrow avec cabinet.

    https://twitter.com/AngryScotland/status/889400054326452224

    I've never understood these cabinet away days.

    Do they actually learn anything new by having a meeting in a government office in Glasgow instead of a government office in London ?

    And is anyone in the 'real world' impressed by it ?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    I would add.
    The breezy, insouciant certainty amongst boosters that a different approach/attitude of mind/personality/tone of voice, is sure to surmount all previous difficulties.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    dixiedean said:

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Didn't we see a string of billboards proclaiming "The UK will Leave the EU on March 29th?"
    Are billboards still in use ?

    I can't remember the last time I saw one.

    Perhaps there's a few where politicians can be filmed standing in front of one.
  • #F1

    Looks quite wet at Hockenheim.

    I've hedged out of my Hamilton bet by backing Max at half stakes
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    dixiedean said:

    I would add.
    The breezy, insouciant certainty amongst boosters that a different approach/attitude of mind/personality/tone of voice, is sure to surmount all previous difficulties.

    'Things are different now'

    and

    'Lessons have been learnt'
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798

    'The visits to adoring fans'

    I believe Boris is still intending a visit to Glasgow tomorrow avec cabinet.

    https://twitter.com/AngryScotland/status/889400054326452224

    I've never understood these cabinet away days.

    Do they actually learn anything new by having a meeting in a government office in Glasgow instead of a government office in London ?

    And is anyone in the 'real world' impressed by it ?
    Usually empty symbolism, BJ and his buds going to Glasgow the absolutely worst sort. I hope someone gets the rickshaw & loudhailer out, though I'm sure it'll be in some secret location with select fawners.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Excellent piece as usual Ms Cyclefree. The first few days of Boris have indeed been a mirror image of the first few days of May. The main difference is that Boris's poll ratings are much worse than May's. And I suspect that his premiership will be shorter and even less successful than hers.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214
    Great piece, very readable and entertaining.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    Excellent piece as usual Ms Cyclefree. The first few days of Boris have indeed been a mirror image of the first few days of May. The main difference is that Boris's poll ratings are much worse than May's. And I suspect that his premiership will be shorter and even less successful than hers.

    We can but hope that he won't do too much damage in the short time allotted.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    dixiedean said:

    I would add.
    The breezy, insouciant certainty amongst boosters that a different approach/attitude of mind/personality/tone of voice, is sure to surmount all previous difficulties.

    Let's hope they're are right this time! I wont hold my breath but at least the ability to string things out is less even if they want to.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    'The visits to adoring fans'

    I believe Boris is still intending a visit to Glasgow tomorrow avec cabinet.

    https://twitter.com/AngryScotland/status/889400054326452224

    I've never understood these cabinet away days.

    Do they actually learn anything new by having a meeting in a government office in Glasgow instead of a government office in London ?

    And is anyone in the 'real world' impressed by it ?
    Agreed, it looks do tokenistic and even as a symbol it looks unimpressive.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:
    Tories beating Labour in Wales?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    kle4 said:
    Wow. This has to mean that Boris is now winning a landslide in the Welsh valleys.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    edited July 2019

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    IIRC the generation, like mine and a bit older who actually lived through the war were/are Remainers. It's their younger brothers and sisters, brought up on the likes of Biggles and The Great Escape who are Leavers.

    Largely true I suspect. I have come to the conclusion that many of that generation (the Baby Boomers) are possibly amongst the most selfish ever born. Free healthcare, free education, excellent pension schemes, high levels of employment, good housing, etc and then they pull the ladders up behind them and demand an extra £350m a week for their healthcare and free TV licences.

    My sympathies are entirely with the under 40s
    Was at a comedy event last night where one of the comedians (millennial) eviscerated the boomers. As a gen-xer I felt like a non combatant but it was biting and very funny. There is a lot of anger out there at the postwar generation. Not all of it's fair. But most of it is.
    The millennials and boomers would do well to remember there is a generation in between them which isn't particularly enamoured of either of them.
    I don't have a problem with millenials, they are more sinned against than sinners.
    I find I have much more in common with them than with the preceding generation. Was it always so?
    Probably. People tend to like their kids more than their parents.
    I find I prefer those 15 years older than 15 younger though
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2019

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Now? We've got government funded propaganda for as long as I can remember, including a puff piece for Remain pre-referendum.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    Nice article, but Cyclefree forgot to mention "British Trump" :lol:
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    edited July 2019

    dixiedean said:

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Didn't we see a string of billboards proclaiming "The UK will Leave the EU on March 29th?"
    Are billboards still in use ?

    I can't remember the last time I saw one.

    Perhaps there's a few where politicians can be filmed standing in front of one.
    Where do you live? There are plenty in Manchester and Newcastle. Both in the City centre and along roadsides.
    Of course, most are digital billboards.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Now? We've got government funded propaganda for as long as I can remember, including a puff piece for Remain pre-referendum.
    Dave enabled the referendum so was entitled to make his case. Boris is ramming through No Deal, which only cranks and eccentrics on the fringe have dabbled in.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    IIRC the generation, like mine and a bit older who actually lived through the war were/are Remainers. It's their younger brothers and sisters, brought up on the likes of Biggles and The Great Escape who are Leavers.

    Largely true I suspect. I have come to the conclusion that many of that generation (the Baby Boomers) are possibly amongst the most selfish ever born. Free healthcare, free education, excellent pension schemes, high levels of employment, good housing, etc and then they pull the ladders up behind them and demand an extra £350m a week for their healthcare and free TV licences.

    My sympathies are entirely with the under 40s
    Was at a comedy event last night where one of the comedians (millennial) eviscerated the boomers. As a gen-xer I felt like a non combatant but it was biting and very funny. There is a lot of anger out there at the postwar generation. Not all of it's fair. But most of it is.
    The millennials and boomers would do well to remember there is a generation in between them which isn't particularly enamoured of either of them.
    I don't have a problem with millenials, they are more sinned against than sinners.
    I find I have much more in common with them than with the preceding generation. Was it always so?
    Probably. People tend to like their kids more than their parents.
    I find I prefer those 15 years older than 15 younger though
    You forgot massive house price inflation.

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    kle4 said:
    But then it is Yougov.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited July 2019
    Boris' first polls are awful compared to Theresa May's. He's possibly scraping 30%. Hers were 40%.

    I think we need to take a step back and look at all this another way, bracketing for a moment that pesky sideshow called Brexit.

    The Conservatives have held power for 9 years. If they do win the next General Election outright they will have been in power in one form or other for between 14 and 17 years depending on the timing of the election. That would be almost on a par with the Thatcher-Major years and longer than the Blairites. Is this really likely? No.

    Either bet on the apparent improbability of a Labour victory or some other make-up for other parties. But NOT on a Conservative majority.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Mrs May's initial footsteps were the correct ones to make, the problem is what happened afterwards. She reneged on her pledges, she was thoroughly dishonest, nobody believed a word she said, she called an unnecessary election then choked during it.

    If Boris sticks with the path he is setting out for himself he can be a great success. If he chokes, retreats and it was all a facade he will fail.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Now? We've got government funded propaganda for as long as I can remember, including a puff piece for Remain pre-referendum.
    Dave enabled the referendum so was entitled to make his case. Boris is ramming through No Deal, which only cranks and eccentrics on the fringe have dabbled in.
    It takes two to tango. We can't have a deal if the EU won't negotiate a good deal and that means no backstop.

    The choice is the EU's to make. If they drop the backstop demands there is no reason we can't have a deal. If they don't, then so be it we have no choice but to proceed without one.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    Mrs May's initial footsteps were the correct ones to make, the problem is what happened afterwards. She reneged on her pledges, she was thoroughly dishonest, nobody believed a word she said, she called an unnecessary election then choked during it.

    If Boris sticks with the path he is setting out for himself he can be a great success. If he chokes, retreats and it was all a facade he will fail.

    Boris has a long history of reneging on his pledges, is thoroughly dishonest and nobody believes a word he says. Another similarity between him and his predecessor....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Boris' first polls are awful compared to Theresa May's. He's possibly scraping 30%. Hers were 40%.

    I think we need to take a step back and look at all this another way, bracketing for a moment that pesky sideshow called Brexit.

    The Conservatives have held power for 9 years. If they do win the next General Election outright they will have been in power in one form or other for between 14 and 17 years depending on the timing of the election. That would be almost on a par with the Thatcher-Major years and longer than the Blairites. Is this really likely? No.

    Either bet on the apparent improbability of a Labour victory or some other make-up for other parties. But NOT on a Conservative majority.

    Apples and oranges.

    The Tories had been polling in the 40s earlier in 2016 and were routinely polling 36-38 in the weeks prior to May's election. So getting a bounce back into the 40s was not a mammoth task.

    I think the Tories under Boris are more likely to poll above 40% than under 30% at the general election, probably high 30s like Cameron's majority-winning 2015 election.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    As a millennial I feel more bitter towards Gen X than Boomers. Some of the latter, like my parents, experienced rationing as children. Gen X have had a decade of ultra low interest rates to prop up house prices. But no generation is to blame really, it’s the stupid politicians who are at fault.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    dixiedean said:

    More anecdata to add to the theory that the BP isn't going to win a Westminster election any time soon. They don't have any kind of local organisation, and don't seem too keen on doing the hard yards of creating one.
    Peterborough was their big chance. They missed, then threw a tantrum, and a string of unfounded allegations of cheating.
    B+R ought to have been a chance too. With a convicted criminal as the only other leaver. But they appear to be headed for third.

    Leaving the politics aside, it's an interesting experiment to see if a professional political party putting a programme forward on a businesslike basis might be an alternative to activists. I don't like the idea much myself, but maybe it could work?
    Would be too expensive, wouldn't it?
    Maybe. How much would it cost to replace the average HUFYD?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Excellent thread.....however, not necessarily everything is the same....

    https://twitter.com/maps_election/status/1155227017295663106?s=21
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Now? We've got government funded propaganda for as long as I can remember, including a puff piece for Remain pre-referendum.
    Dave enabled the referendum so was entitled to make his case. Boris is ramming through No Deal, which only cranks and eccentrics on the fringe have dabbled in.
    It takes two to tango. We can't have a deal if the EU won't negotiate a good deal and that means no backstop.

    The choice is the EU's to make. If they drop the backstop demands there is no reason we can't have a deal. If they don't, then so be it we have no choice but to proceed without one.
    Have you read this thread?

    https://twitter.com/DLidington/status/1155149491764436994
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    tlg86 said:

    But no generation is to blame really, it’s the stupid politicians who are at fault.

    Not the people who elected them?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    tlg86 said:

    But no generation is to blame really, it’s the stupid politicians who are at fault.

    Not the people who elected them?
    No. The politicians are supposed to be the grown ups. I was struck by how much more grown up the likes of Geoffrey Howe appeared in that Thatcher documentary than the current politicians. Brexit may be consuming most of the political bandwidth at the moment, but one thing all our politicians seem to have in common is that they find it very easy to spend other people’s money.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Now? We've got government funded propaganda for as long as I can remember, including a puff piece for Remain pre-referendum.
    Dave enabled the referendum so was entitled to make his case. Boris is ramming through No Deal, which only cranks and eccentrics on the fringe have dabbled in.
    It takes two to tango. We can't have a deal if the EU won't negotiate a good deal and that means no backstop.

    The choice is the EU's to make. If they drop the backstop demands there is no reason we can't have a deal. If they don't, then so be it we have no choice but to proceed without one.
    Have you read this thread?

    https://twitter.com/DLidington/status/1155149491764436994
    I hadn't, I have now. Changes nothing.

    The backstop is a democratic abomination. As is somewhat acknowledged in the thread. For a bunch of Remainers like Lidington, May and Robbins seeking to maintain the benefits of the EU the backstop may appear like a success. But it isn't.

    https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1154450122207420417
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Now? We've got government funded propaganda for as long as I can remember, including a puff piece for Remain pre-referendum.
    Dave enabled the referendum so was entitled to make his case. Boris is ramming through No Deal, which only cranks and eccentrics on the fringe have dabbled in.
    It takes two to tango. We can't have a deal if the EU won't negotiate a good deal and that means no backstop.

    The choice is the EU's to make. If they drop the backstop demands there is no reason we can't have a deal. If they don't, then so be it we have no choice but to proceed without one.
    No, there will still be the choice we have discussed previously, which I think is the one Boris will take.

    Vastly lengthen the transition period. This will kick the backstop into the long grass. We can then leave on halloween as planned.

    This will work because it provides political cover for all the different groups' objections. Face-saving, if you like, but saving face is often necessary for compromise. For the ERG, DUP, Ireland and the EU, even for Remainers.

    We exit on halloween; nothing much changes; Boris is hailed as the greatest prime minister since Churchill and can get on with implementing Jeremy Corbyn's 2017 manifesto.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Vastly lengthen the transition period. This will kick the backstop into the long grass. We can then leave on halloween as planned.

    How would that get around the problem of being subject to the next budget without having had a say? It could easily be portrayed as giving the EU a blank cheque.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    dixiedean said:

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Didn't we see a string of billboards proclaiming "The UK will Leave the EU on March 29th?"
    Are billboards still in use ?

    I can't remember the last time I saw one.

    Perhaps there's a few where politicians can be filmed standing in front of one.
    There were definitely adverts on bus stops in London saying "Prepare your business for leaving the EU on March 29th".
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503
    edited July 2019
    Anecdata department - a fellow-councillor and I went out for a couple of hours on doorsteps this morning, mainly to work towards fulfilling a promise to stay in touch and ask about local issues if we won.

    But we mostly also asked people how they'd vote in a GE. Labour was marginally up on the local elections, but by far the most frequent reply was "I honestly have no idea". Some may have been shy of telling us, but most seemed entirely frank. I doubt if anyone can rely on polls at the moment.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Now? We've got government funded propaganda for as long as I can remember, including a puff piece for Remain pre-referendum.
    Dave enabled the referendum so was entitled to make his case. Boris is ramming through No Deal, which only cranks and eccentrics on the fringe have dabbled in.
    It takes two to tango. We can't have a deal if the EU won't negotiate a good deal and that means no backstop.

    The choice is the EU's to make. If they drop the backstop demands there is no reason we can't have a deal. If they don't, then so be it we have no choice but to proceed without one.
    No, there will still be the choice we have discussed previously, which I think is the one Boris will take.

    Vastly lengthen the transition period. This will kick the backstop into the long grass. We can then leave on halloween as planned.

    This will work because it provides political cover for all the different groups' objections. Face-saving, if you like, but saving face is often necessary for compromise. For the ERG, DUP, Ireland and the EU, even for Remainers.

    We exit on halloween; nothing much changes; Boris is hailed as the greatest prime minister since Churchill and can get on with implementing Jeremy Corbyn's 2017 manifesto.
    That's not a bad suggestion and is what I have previously suggested here and is basically what Boris's GATT 24 suggestion is about [Gatt 24 would basically be an upto-a-decade transition].

    However it will take the EU agreeing to that. So far they're setting their nose against it as they are claiming any deal must have the backstop. Its self-defeating nonsense of course, the purpose of the backstop is to prevent a no deal situation in the future so why have a no deal situation now insisting upon it? Whether the EU have dug themselves in too deep to do the right thing is what we wait to see.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Vastly lengthen the transition period. This will kick the backstop into the long grass. We can then leave on halloween as planned.

    How would that get around the problem of being subject to the next budget without having had a say? It could easily be portrayed as giving the EU a blank cheque.
    We shouldn't be subject to the next budget.

    If there are fees to pay for the transition we should agree them up front, they can then put those fees towards their budget but the budget will have nothing to do with us.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Chaps: have not read the comments but the phrase

    " for aqabaee at last"

    in the last line should read "free at last".

    I'm assuming people have read that far, of course.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    tlg86 said:

    As a millennial I feel more bitter towards Gen X than Boomers. Some of the latter, like my parents, experienced rationing as children. Gen X have had a decade of ultra low interest rates to prop up house prices. But no generation is to blame really, it’s the stupid politicians who are at fault.

    That's a good answer, except who elects the stupid politicians?

    A massive issue is that many problems are highly complex in nature, and the best solutions are also highly complex. Yet highly complex solutions are really difficult to sell to the public.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Now? We've got government funded propaganda for as long as I can remember, including a puff piece for Remain pre-referendum.
    Dave enabled the referendum so was entitled to make his case. Boris is ramming through No Deal, which only cranks and eccentrics on the fringe have dabbled in.
    It takes two to tango. We can't have a deal if the EU won't negotiate a good deal and that means no backstop.

    The choice is the EU's to make. If they drop the backstop demands there is no reason we can't have a deal. If they don't, then so be it we have no choice but to proceed without one.
    The backstop is now a red herring. Within the current deal it is not going away. The current deal is not going to pass thru parliament.

    The choice remains with the UK. If we want to Brexit quickly we can probably negotiate a standstill open ended transition that would give time to negotiate a FTA. There would be less than 10 tory rebels on the remain side, it would be up to the ERG wing to block it, if they want to stop Brexit again.

    Otherwise we can gamble with no deal. It may not pass thru parliament. It may result in an election the leave parties lose. It may result in disaster. It will probably make the negotiations about our future relationship far less favourable to the UK as it will require ratification at state level with 27 countries asking for their pet issues addressed.

    The choice is ours.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps: have not read the comments but the phrase

    " for aqabaee at last"

    in the last line should read "free at last".

    I'm assuming people have read that far, of course.

    Thanks! That makes a lot more sense.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Sounds like an entertaining F1 race. :)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    dixiedean said:

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Didn't we see a string of billboards proclaiming "The UK will Leave the EU on March 29th?"
    Brussels knows he is serious. What they also know is the House of Commons will block him and he has no majority.

    That is his conundrum.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Seems entirely appropriate, the only inappropriate thing is that surely Gove won't be working seven days a week between now and the end of October, that seems rather unhealthy!

    One question I've just thought of is I wonder whether a mooted No Confidence vote in September will be affected by the polls in August and September? If Boris builds on his double-digit lead in YouGov yesterday and that is reflected across the pollsters then will the opposition seriously unite to trigger a VONC with Boris's No Deal Tories 10 or more points in the lead?

    I imagine a VONC will be easier to stomache by those involved if the Tories are behind in the polls?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps: have not read the comments but the phrase

    " for aqabaee at last"

    in the last line should read "free at last".

    I'm assuming people have read that far, of course.

    Tbh I just assumed it was yet another clever operatic reference I didn't get, never having been to Glyndebourne, let alone Eton.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2019

    dixiedean said:

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Didn't we see a string of billboards proclaiming "The UK will Leave the EU on March 29th?"
    Brussels knows he is serious. What they also know is the House of Commons will block him and he has no majority.

    That is his conundrum.
    No, the assumption until now is that the Commons will block him. The assumption was also that Tory MPs in the Commons would block him from the final 2 and he topped the nominations instead.

    That the Commons will stop him isn't certain and is looking less certain with not-so-secret Brexiteer Corbyn as LOTO and a very diverse rainbow of opposition to Boris that is supposed to unite - and presumably must both agree to install Corbyn to stop Boris and must agree to trigger an election which will see dozens of those involved lose their seats.

    Any Tories who VONC Boris will lose their seats doing so. Most Tiggers will lose their seats. And if the Tories do have a double-digit lead in the polls then many Labour MPs could do so too.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    dixiedean said:

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Didn't we see a string of billboards proclaiming "The UK will Leave the EU on March 29th?"
    Brussels knows he is serious. What they also know is the House of Commons will block him and he has no majority.

    That is his conundrum.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7292845/Attorney-General-believes-Boris-Johnson-UK-EU-loses-no-confidence-vote.html
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    tlg86 said:

    As a millennial I feel more bitter towards Gen X than Boomers. Some of the latter, like my parents, experienced rationing as children. Gen X have had a decade of ultra low interest rates to prop up house prices. But no generation is to blame really, it’s the stupid politicians who are at fault.

    That's a good answer, except who elects the stupid politicians?

    A massive issue is that many problems are highly complex in nature, and the best solutions are also highly complex. Yet highly complex solutions are really difficult to sell to the public.
    We don’t elect the MPC. Perhaps we should.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    To what purpose. There is no point in reporting back on something daily unless one is talking about actual warfare.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2019
    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Didn't we see a string of billboards proclaiming "The UK will Leave the EU on March 29th?"
    Brussels knows he is serious. What they also know is the House of Commons will block him and he has no majority.

    That is his conundrum.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7292845/Attorney-General-believes-Boris-Johnson-UK-EU-loses-no-confidence-vote.html
    Entirely correct. Parliament itself voted to enact Article 50, Parliament itself instructed there be an extension and Parliament itself endorsed the October 31st end date.

    If Parliament doesn't pass anything through the correct channels to extend again then when we leave on October 31st that will be the will of Parliament.

    Simply triggering an election or bringing down Boris is insufficient to change the law of the land which is that we leave on October 31st.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    To what purpose. There is no point in reporting back on something daily unless one is talking about actual warfare.
    Identify problems, identify solutions, implement solutions.

    If there are no problems to identify then we're ready to leave.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    Just because Johnson has abandoned his family does he expect everyone who works for him to do the same? What an arse.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    To what purpose. There is no point in reporting back on something daily unless one is talking about actual warfare.
    Identify problems, identify solutions, implement solutions.

    If there are no problems to identify then we're ready to leave.
    So we'll be ready once Ireland is reunified and our economy has been restructured to avoid dependencies on the rest of Europe. Can it be done in 90 days?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    To what purpose. There is no point in reporting back on something daily unless one is talking about actual warfare.
    It's all spin and kidology. Those foolish gnomes in Brussels and Bonn will never know though will they?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Now? We've got government funded propaganda for as long as I can remember, including a puff piece for Remain pre-referendum.
    Dave enabled the referendum so was entitled to make his case. Boris is ramming through No Deal, which only cranks and eccentrics on the fringe have dabbled in.
    It takes two to tango. We can't have a deal if the EU won't negotiate a good deal and that means no backstop.

    The choice is the EU's to make. If they drop the backstop demands there is no reason we can't have a deal. If they don't, then so be it we have no choice but to proceed without one.
    Have you read this thread?

    https://twitter.com/DLidington/status/1155149491764436994
    I hadn't, I have now. Changes nothing.

    The backstop is a democratic abomination. As is somewhat acknowledged in the thread. For a bunch of Remainers like Lidington, May and Robbins seeking to maintain the benefits of the EU the backstop may appear like a success. But it isn't.

    https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1154450122207420417
    As an ardent remainer I was initially annoyed by the backstop because it was such a good deal. I'd been arguing that we couldn't expect preferential treatment from the EU. And there they go and give us a really really good leaving package. How do you argue for rejoining when you have so many of the benefits for free?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    To what purpose. There is no point in reporting back on something daily unless one is talking about actual warfare.
    Identify problems, identify solutions, implement solutions.

    If there are no problems to identify then we're ready to leave.
    If you're in a meeting, you're probably not actually any implementation.
  • ajbajb Posts: 145
    "What is it with PMs appointing plainly unsuitable Foreign Secretaries?"

    Don't know about the other ones, but Raab was clearly appointed solely to demonstrate that Boris made a better Foreign Secretary than at least someone.(I imagine he considered appointing Priti, but that would have been too obvious). Classic "B players hire C players".
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Didn't we see a string of billboards proclaiming "The UK will Leave the EU on March 29th?"
    Brussels knows he is serious. What they also know is the House of Commons will block him and he has no majority.

    That is his conundrum.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7292845/Attorney-General-believes-Boris-Johnson-UK-EU-loses-no-confidence-vote.html
    Entirely correct. Parliament itself voted to enact Article 50, Parliament itself instructed there be an extension and Parliament itself endorsed the October 31st end date.

    If Parliament doesn't pass anything through the correct channels to extend again then when we leave on October 31st that will be the will of Parliament.

    Simply triggering an election or bringing down Boris is insufficient to change the law of the land which is that we leave on October 31st.
    All he is saying is what everyone had assumed to be the case, that to block no deal parliament subsequent to a VoNC it either needs a temporary GONU or to schedule a GE to be done in time for a new govt (which would again likely be hung and therefore still need a GONU or at least a difficult coalition).

    His more interesting advice was that May could not legally refuse parliaments expressed wish to extend Brexit back in March. No-one seems to talk about that but presumably it would still stand for our current PM if parliament manages to pass similar to Cooper-Letwin again.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    #F1

    Looks quite wet at Hockenheim.

    I've hedged out of my Hamilton bet by backing Max at half stakes

    A wise precaution, it seems.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    justin124 said:

    kle4 said:
    But then it is Yougov.
    One of the top pollsters as you well know.
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    Prof Roger Awan-Scully
    @roger_scully
    ·
    5h
    A new Welsh Political Barometer poll by @YouGov
    will be published tomorrow by @ITVWales


    The results go well beyond ‘gosh’ territory, or even ‘blimey’: by some way the most dramatic poll I have ever analysed.

    And in some respects a genuinely historic poll for Welsh politics.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,894
    Bad day for Mercedes !
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,894
    marke09 said:

    Prof Roger Awan-Scully
    @roger_scully
    ·
    5h
    A new Welsh Political Barometer poll by @YouGov
    will be published tomorrow by @ITVWales


    The results go well beyond ‘gosh’ territory, or even ‘blimey’: by some way the most dramatic poll I have ever analysed.

    And in some respects a genuinely historic poll for Welsh politics.

    Labour in third would be funny
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    edited July 2019
    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Didn't we see a string of billboards proclaiming "The UK will Leave the EU on March 29th?"
    Brussels knows he is serious. What they also know is the House of Commons will block him and he has no majority.

    That is his conundrum.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7292845/Attorney-General-believes-Boris-Johnson-UK-EU-loses-no-confidence-vote.html
    Following a VoNC, is it not likely that the Queen will feel obliged to ask JC to have a go at forming an administration?...

    And could Corbyn not ask the EU for an extension (or even revoke A50) before he is VoNC'ed?

    Genuine questions - I don't know.

    (As an aside, is there a less user-friendly website than www.dailymail.co.uk? All those pop-up ads make it an absulte nightmare to actually read an article.)
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Interesting assessment by Cyclefree.

    I think after seeing a few of these 'changeovers' in my life time the novelty has worn off. In fact when Gordon Brown took office the novelty had worn off and I was a sole voice criticising him from the off with his vacuous promises. Boris Johnson is just the same as his predecessors in that nothing is substantially different it is just a change of personnel.

    The Brexit supporting media is doing their stuff, I can see them turning off all coverage of Farage in a GE to assist Boris and the Tories so they get what they want...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Pulpstar said:

    marke09 said:

    Prof Roger Awan-Scully
    @roger_scully
    ·
    5h
    A new Welsh Political Barometer poll by @YouGov
    will be published tomorrow by @ITVWales


    The results go well beyond ‘gosh’ territory, or even ‘blimey’: by some way the most dramatic poll I have ever analysed.

    And in some respects a genuinely historic poll for Welsh politics.

    Labour in third would be funny
    Plaid Cymru 50%?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Does anyone still think that F1 is boring?
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    RE The Welsh poll -this was the last one done in May 2019
    Westminster:
    Labour: 25% (-8)
    Brexit Party: 23% (+19)
    Conservative: 17% (-9)
    Plaid Cymru: 13% (-2)
    Liberal Democrats: 12% (+5)
    Greens: 5% (+3)
    Change UK: 2% (-7)
    UKIP: 1% (-2)
    Others: 2% (+1)

    Assembly
    Labour: 25% (-6)
    Plaid Cymru: 24% (no change)
    Conservatives: 17% (-6)
    Brexit Party: 17% (+17)
    Liberal Democrats: 9% (+3)
    Greens: 5% (+4)
    Change UK: 1% (-3)
    UKIP: 1% (-6)
    Others: 1% (-4)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    Sandpit said:

    Does anyone still think that F1 is boring?

    Yes the 90% of races when there is no rain. 90% of the seasons drama will be in the 10% of races with rain. With all their money cant they afford some sprinklers?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    'The visits to adoring fans'

    I believe Boris is still intending a visit to Glasgow tomorrow avec cabinet.

    https://twitter.com/AngryScotland/status/889400054326452224

    I've never understood these cabinet away days.

    Do they actually learn anything new by having a meeting in a government office in Glasgow instead of a government office in London ?

    And is anyone in the 'real world' impressed by it ?
    Provided they do more than just meet in an office (eg see stuff, hear from people) then away days can be valuable as a new perspective
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Sandpit said:

    Does anyone still think that F1 is boring?

    Yes the 90% of races when there is no rain. 90% of the seasons drama will be in the 10% of races with rain. With all their money cant they afford some sprinklers?
    Watering the track was proposed a few years back iirc.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Mr. Above, there was no rain at Austria or the UK. Both were fantastic.

    Feeling a bit off-colour so the post-race ramble might be rather curtailed. Great race today.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    AndyJS said:
    The hunch is correct. The Brexit supporting media who instigated the ousting of May by giving coverage to the Brexit party in the run up to the European elections are trying to sell us their creation. I think they misjudge people as it is easy to spot the flaws in Boris Johnson. Some people like him at the moment despite his personal inability to execute the role as PM. However, overtime people who currently support him will turn on him and these flaws will be amplified and will metamorphose into objections.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    Provided they do more than just meet in an office (eg see stuff, hear from people) then away days can be valuable as a new perspective

    See The Hollowmen and the thought ball...
  • Sandpit said:

    Does anyone still think that F1 is boring?

    It's all coming up Brisky this weekend. Ms Brisk got a bit grumpy that I hedged because we're both Team Hamilton ; but everyone likes an insurance winnar :)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,827

    AndyJS said:
    The hunch is correct. The Brexit supporting media who instigated the ousting of May by giving coverage to the Brexit party in the run up to the European elections are trying to sell us their creation. I think they misjudge people as it is easy to spot the flaws in Boris Johnson. Some people like him at the moment despite his personal inability to execute the role as PM. However, overtime people who currently support him will turn on him and these flaws will be amplified and will metamorphose into objections.
    Do you also know the lottery numbers for next week? :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    tlg86 said:

    As a millennial I feel more bitter towards Gen X than Boomers. Some of the latter, like my parents, experienced rationing as children. Gen X have had a decade of ultra low interest rates to prop up house prices. But no generation is to blame really, it’s the stupid politicians who are at fault.

    And who rewards those politicians? We do.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Charles said:

    'The visits to adoring fans'

    I believe Boris is still intending a visit to Glasgow tomorrow avec cabinet.

    https://twitter.com/AngryScotland/status/889400054326452224

    I've never understood these cabinet away days.

    Do they actually learn anything new by having a meeting in a government office in Glasgow instead of a government office in London ?

    And is anyone in the 'real world' impressed by it ?
    Provided they do more than just meet in an office (eg see stuff, hear from people) then away days can be valuable as a new perspective
    Really? What an idealistic view.

    And rather implicitly suggests all leaders are total crap since they are unable to consider alternative perspectives otherwise and rarely do such things.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    Excellent thread.....however, not necessarily everything is the same....

    https://twitter.com/maps_election/status/1155227017295663106?s=21

    Does rather show up those salivating at Johnsons feet for mere words and unexceptional polling.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141

    Boris' first polls are awful compared to Theresa May's. He's possibly scraping 30%. Hers were 40%.

    I think we need to take a step back and look at all this another way, bracketing for a moment that pesky sideshow called Brexit.

    The Conservatives have held power for 9 years. If they do win the next General Election outright they will have been in power in one form or other for between 14 and 17 years depending on the timing of the election. That would be almost on a par with the Thatcher-Major years and longer than the Blairites. Is this really likely? No.

    Either bet on the apparent improbability of a Labour victory or some other make-up for other parties. But NOT on a Conservative majority.

    Apples and oranges.

    The Tories had been polling in the 40s earlier in 2016 and were routinely polling 36-38 in the weeks prior to May's election. So getting a bounce back into the 40s was not a mammoth task.

    I think the Tories under Boris are more likely to poll above 40% than under 30% at the general election, probably high 30s like Cameron's majority-winning 2015 election.
    I expect that the Conservatives' numbers will rise into the mid thirties in coming weeks.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    This is coming as no surprise. Only Brexiteers and Corbyn believes in the Leave shit. The ground has shifted.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    This is coming as no surprise. Only Brexiteers and Corbyn believes in the Leave shit. The ground has shifted.
    I think a UK poll would have similar figures. That's why Brexiteers want to finish off the job quickly. The lies have come back home.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    Forget the bus, we are now going to get government funded propaganda.

    The new Prime Minister is planning to show Brussels he is serious about taking Britain out of the bloc without a deal by ramping up preparations.

    The information push will see an everything-you-need-to-know leaflet sent to 27 million households and the broadcast of TV ads as part of a campaign which is expected to cost £10 million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7294389/Every-home-Britain-leaflet-prepare-No-Deal-Brexit.html

    Now? We've got government funded propaganda for as long as I can remember, including a puff piece for Remain pre-referendum.
    Dave enabled the referendum so was entitled to make his case. Boris is ramming through No Deal, which only cranks and eccentrics on the fringe have dabbled in.
    It takes two to tango. We can't have a deal if the EU won't negotiate a good deal and that means no backstop.

    The choice is the EU's to make. If they drop the backstop demands there is no reason we can't have a deal. If they don't, then so be it we have no choice but to proceed without one.
    The backstop is now a red herring.
    Certainly true. The argument has regressed if possible to old points, a simple win or lose point for both sides to posture over.
This discussion has been closed.