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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » 64 LAB peers pay for Guardian ad to tell Corbyn that he fails

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell
    or even Chris Williamson then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    With your help directing unwanted sensible Tories toward the LibDems...
    Some current middle class Tories would be 19th century Liberals, some pro Brexit working class voters are Lord Salisbury or Disraeli Tories
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    ydoethur said:

    If we leave aside the 2015 revelation that Corbyn was a friend and supporter of Paul Eisen, this has now been a constant running sore for over a year.

    At what point would a sensible person have got a grip?
    If we lived somewhere where Boris's favourite love Island contestant wasn't front page news it would be possible for Corbyn and co to start asking sensible questions whether it is desirable for Israel to describe itslf as a Jewish State' and to question Mark Regev- ex Israeli propaganda chief current Israeli Ambassador to London-'s part in the continuous stories-real and false-about Corbyn's so called 'anti semitism'.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    ydoethur said:

    If we leave aside the 2015 revelation that Corbyn was a friend and supporter of Paul Eisen, this has now been a constant running sore for over a year.

    At what point would a sensible person have got a grip?
    Sign of the times. There’s plenty of Brexiteers who deny this kind of stuff was inflammatory and voted for it saying they aren’t bigoted.





    Strangely they get triggered by an accurate bar chart.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell
    or even Chris Williamson then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    With your help directing unwanted sensible Tories toward the LibDems...
    Some current middle class Tories would be 19th century Liberals, some pro Brexit working class voters are Lord Salisbury or Disraeli Tories
    woulda should coulda. It's what people are now that matters.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    edited July 2019
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell
    or even Chris Williamson then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    With your help directing unwanted sensible Tories toward the LibDems...
    Some current middle class Tories would be 19th century Liberals, some pro Brexit working class voters are Lord Salisbury or Disraeli Tories
    My conservative party has been a broad church until the ERG Spartans attempted a coup. Labeling fellow conservatives is not compatible a to a one nation party
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    If we leave aside the 2015 revelation that Corbyn was a friend and supporter of Paul Eisen, this has now been a constant running sore for over a year.

    At what point would a sensible person have got a grip?
    If we lived somewhere where Boris's favourite love Island contestant wasn't front page news it would be possible for Corbyn and co to start asking sensible questions whether it is desirable for Israel to describe itslf as a Jewish State' and to question Mark Regev- ex Israeli propaganda chief current Israeli Ambassador to London-'s part in the continuous stories-real and false-about Corbyn's so called 'anti semitism'.
    Would you call England a Christian State?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    If we leave aside the 2015 revelation that Corbyn was a friend and supporter of Paul Eisen, this has now been a constant running sore for over a year.

    At what point would a sensible person have got a grip?
    If we lived somewhere where Boris's favourite love Island contestant wasn't front page news it would be possible for Corbyn and co to start asking sensible questions whether it is desirable for Israel to describe itslf as a Jewish State' and to question Mark Regev- ex Israeli propaganda chief current Israeli Ambassador to London-'s part in the continuous stories-real and false-about Corbyn's so called 'anti semitism'.
    You mean, the false stories about him donating to Deir Yassin Remembered, or laying a wreath on a mass murderer's grave and lying about it, or saying the Jews don't get irony, or calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends, or protesting about a mural being taken down just because it was a piece of Nazi propaganda?

    Oh, hold in, those are true, aren't they?

    The real issue with Corbyn and Labour more generally is not what their enemies are saying about them, it's what they're actually saying and doing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    Good result for the LDs in Cardiff overnight

    LD Rob Hopkins 1920 [55.3%; +18.9%]
    Con 838 [24.1%; -11.9%]
    Lab 560 [16.1%; -3.3%]
    PC 152 [4.4% +4.4%]


    Lib Dem Hold.
    Percentage changes from 2017.

    Why are they voting on a Tuesday?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Eagles, have you consulted the Mystic Calendar of Portents*?

    *Mr. Smithson's holiday plans.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    It would be much better all round if the crisis happens next week.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679

    Mr. Eagles, have you consulted the Mystic Calendar of Portents*?

    *Mr. Smithson's holiday plans.

    My holiday starts on Friday and lasts 12 days.

    Mike’s also on a bit of a break starting this weekend.

    If the Tories are losing Simon Hoare then they are buggered.

    He’s as loyal as they come.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Jeremy Warner, Telegraph: "Boris promises salvation; he now faces the almost hopeless task of delivery."
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    edited July 2019
    The contest has been dragging on too long and should have been concluded by now, no doubt with Boris winning comfortably.

    However, the way both Boris and Hunt have boxed themselves in over Brexit it is hard to forecast the outcome with any confidence. There are several conservative mps including Grieve and Bebb who are looking at the nuclear option, but it is no means certain that even if several conservatives vonc in their own government 100% of labour mps would follow their whip

    Of course labour supporters rightly expect any of their mps who defy the whip to be deselected but is not at all clear how many mps of both parties would actually want a GE now before Brexit has become clearer

    I understand Barnier had to be told five times to his face the WDA is dead and reacted with fury no doubt over the realisation that his negotiations could see a catastrophic fail in a no deal exit leading to economic disaster for both sides and ruptured relationships that will take years to heal

    Let us all hope that over the summer months both Boris and the EU can show some compromise to achieve a brexit that, while not ideal, does not end in an economic armageddon for all

    Time will tell

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    Just discovered that the Republican House of 2016/2017 made it out of bounds to call Trump racist in the Senate and Congress

    https://twitter.com/CraigCaplan/status/1151221245628821504?s=19

    The reference is actually to this:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/pelosi-squad-and-fight-over-trump-house-floor/594169/
    Among the authorities that govern House procedure in this regard is Thomas Jefferson’s Manual of Parliamentary Practice, published in 1801 and used by the House since the 1830s. It forbids language “which is personally offensive to the president”

    Of course such a rule is rendered otiose by a president who regards anything other than slavish devotion as personally offensive.

    One might also remark that a slaveowner who raped his female property is perhaps not the ideal authority to reference in this matter.
    THe problem with trying to use this for the Republicans is that calling Trump a racist is a simple statement of fact. The minor detail that if applied logically to all immigrants the whole Trump family would have to be deported shows he is targeting only non-whites.

    Although I do agree with him he doesn't have a racist bone in his body. Allowing for the large lump of bone in his arse that masquerades as his brain, he has 207 of them.
    I wonder if he truly believes he is not racist. Its hard to see how he could, but he clearly knows enough that being a racist is bad and he cannot possibly be bad, ergo he must not be racist.
    He probably does. David Irving, for example, couldn't understand why saying his books were rejected by mainstream publishing houses because the Jews objected to them was racist.

    And there are several people in another organisation which shall be nameless who believe they are not racist when they clearly are (THAT mural was all the evidence needed).

    But even if Trump were shrewd and sensible (he isn't) he doesn't get to say what is and isn't racism.

    And I say again, since his tweets obviously only applied to selected first and second generation immigrants, those with non-white skins, he was clearly being racist.
    I don't think he gives it much thought either way.
    All people are merely tools to him, irrespective of race or creed.

    But yes, of course he is racist
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    But then he has to get a deal, which he won't be able to. Certainly not by 31/10
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    The contest has been dragging on too long and should have been concluded by now, no doubt with Boris winning comfortably.

    The problem with a long contest to test the candidates is that if the favourite is found wanting but still wins, it just negates any honeymoon they might otherwise have got.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337

    Good result for the LDs in Cardiff overnight

    LD Rob Hopkins 1920 [55.3%; +18.9%]
    Con 838 [24.1%; -11.9%]
    Lab 560 [16.1%; -3.3%]
    PC 152 [4.4% +4.4%]


    Lib Dem Hold.
    Percentage changes from 2017.

    I appreciate Cardiff is *really, really different* to Llandrindod Wells, but as a small anecdotal indicator that the Welsh Lib Dems aren't completely moribund, I'd say that's not entirely optimal for the prospects of (convicted expenses-fiddling Tory) Chris Davies.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    If we leave aside the 2015 revelation that Corbyn was a friend and supporter of Paul Eisen, this has now been a constant running sore for over a year.

    At what point would a sensible person have got a grip?
    If we lived somewhere where Boris's favourite love Island contestant wasn't front page news it would be possible for Corbyn and co to start asking sensible questions whether it is desirable for Israel to describe itslf as a Jewish State' and to question Mark Regev- ex Israeli propaganda chief current Israeli Ambassador to London-'s part in the continuous stories-real and false-about Corbyn's so called 'anti semitism'.
    You mean, the false stories about him donating to Deir Yassin Remembered, or laying a wreath on a mass murderer's grave and lying about it, or saying the Jews don't get irony, or calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends, or protesting about a mural being taken down just because it was a piece of Nazi propaganda?

    Oh, hold in, those are true, aren't they?

    The real issue with Corbyn and Labour more generally is not what their enemies are saying about them, it's what they're actually saying and doing.
    Are those the strongest claims of anti semitism against corbyn? There is a reasonable case to be made that the only anti semitism in that list is 'Jews don't get irony'. A stereotype and a completely innacurate onre to boot. The rest are all Israel related.

    There is nothing anti semitic about calling Hezbollah friends. I know many very sane Lebanese Christians who would say exactly the same. They have done more for the poor in Lebanon than any other organisation over the last twenty five years. Their crime is that they defended their country from an Israel invasion relatively successfully. As for laying wreaths,,,for God's sake Thathcher had Pinochet home for tea. People dead or alive are multi faceted. If you haven't been you should visit Lebanon. An intelligent population which might give you a mre rounded view of Middle Eastern politics
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    But then he has to get a deal, which he won't be able to. Certainly not by 31/10
    I think rather than the caricature of BJ running over a cliff, he'll look more like the mouse in that early 3D maze game when it gets to the end of a corridor and a move in every direction results in it bashing its head on a wall.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156


    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell
    or even Chris Williamson then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    With your help directing unwanted sensible Tories toward the LibDems...
    Some current middle class Tories would be 19th century Liberals, some pro Brexit working class voters are Lord Salisbury or Disraeli Tories
    My conservative party has been a broad church until the ERG Spartans attempted a coup. Labeling fellow conservatives is not compatible a to a one nation party
    Except Disraeli started the 'One Nation' term when his main opponents were Gladstone's Liberals
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    With the greatest respect you are beginning to sound like a programmed robot
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell
    or even Chris Williamson then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    With your help directing unwanted sensible Tories toward the LibDems...
    Some current middle class Tories would be 19th century Liberals, some pro Brexit working class voters are Lord Salisbury or Disraeli Tories
    My conservative party has been a broad church until the ERG Spartans attempted a coup. Labeling fellow conservatives is not compatible a to a one nation party
    Except Disraeli started the 'One Nation' term when his main opponents were Gladstone's Liberals
    Boring
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    If we leave aside the 2015 revelation that Corbyn was a friend and supporter of Paul Eisen, this has now been a constant running sore for over a year.

    At what point would a sensible person have got a grip?
    If we lived somewhere where Boris's favourite love Island contestant wasn't front page news it would be possible for Corbyn and co to start asking sensible questions whether it is desirable for Israel to describe itslf as a Jewish State' and to question Mark Regev- ex Israeli propaganda chief current Israeli Ambassador to London-'s part in the continuous stories-real and false-about Corbyn's so called 'anti semitism'.
    You mean, the false stories about him donating to Deir Yassin Remembered, or laying a wreath on a mass murderer's grave and lying about it, or saying the Jews don't get irony, or calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends, or protesting about a mural being taken down just because it was a piece of Nazi propaganda?

    Oh, hold in, those are true, aren't they?

    The real issue with Corbyn and Labour more generally is not what their enemies are saying about them, it's what they're actually saying and doing.
    Are those the strongest claims of anti semitism against corbyn? There is a reasonable case to be made that the only anti semitism in that list is 'Jews don't get irony'. A stereotype and a completely innacurate onre to boot. The rest are all Israel related.

    There is nothing anti semitic about calling Hezbollah friends. I know many very sane Lebanese Christians who would say exactly the same. They have done more for the poor in Lebanon than any other organisation over the last twenty five years. Their crime is that they defended their country from an Israel invasion relatively successfully. As for laying wreaths,,,for God's sake Thathcher had Pinochet home for tea. People dead or alive are multi faceted. If you haven't been you should visit Lebanon. An intelligent population which might give you a mre rounded view of Middle Eastern politics
    @ydoethur as I understand it is a teacher in a provincial English town. You people wouldn't understand the vernacular he uses as a result and so it is not surprising that you misinterpret what he posted.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell
    or even Chris Williamson then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    With your help directing unwanted sensible Tories toward the LibDems...
    Some current middle class Tories would be 19th century Liberals, some pro Brexit working class voters are Lord Salisbury or Disraeli Tories
    My conservative party has been a broad church until the ERG Spartans attempted a coup. Labeling fellow conservatives is not compatible a to a one nation party
    Except Disraeli started the 'One Nation' term when his main opponents were Gladstone's Liberals
    Boring
    Sorry you find the history of the party boring BigG
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
    The conservative party will not either
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,707

    philiph said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Quite the move. I wonder if the far left will react in kind, or simply embark upon a purge of soon-to-be non-persons.

    It is hard to see HOL surviving a Corbyn administration.
    Reaction will, I assume, be a load of Tory Blairites
    It's sufficiently broad-based not to be seen as that. But I think it and even more the letter from the 200 miscellaneous members a few days ago make the mistake of turning the issue into a leadership challenge. The mainstream position of members IMO is (1) There's a problem and the party has been too slow to tackle it, in particular the ridiculously slow disciplinary procedures (2) Attacking people with serious health issues is wrong (whether the staff member who considered suicide or Jennie Formby with cancer) (3) Actually encountering any anti-semitism is extremely rare at local meetings (I never have, in nearly 50 years), and not every complaint is reasonable, so due process is needed (4) The issue is being exaggerated by the media and people whose real agenda is getting a leadership change.

    There is a majority who want a clear break with practice to restore confidence in the disciplinary procedures, and also a majority who don't want a leadership change. Peers or others who want the former are making a mistake in trying to turn it into the latter.
    "Attacking people with serious health issues is wrong (whether the staff member who considered suicide or Jennie Formby with cancer)"

    You have to be rather careful with this line. If someone does wrong then they need to be brought to task: people do not get a free ride if they're ill. If they've done wrong *because* they're ill, then they probably shouldn't be in that position and it might be a management failure. If they're ill and they've done wrong independently of that, then it's probably their responsibility and should get blame.

    Using your argument, Formby probably shouldn't be in her position - and I think that's a poor precedent if she can still perform her role despite the illness.

    Yes, we should treat anyone who is ill with compassion: then again Corbyn (and sadly, your) side of the argument aren't exactly compassionate about their opposition, whether it be internal or external. Leon Brittan comes to mind ...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell
    or even Chris Williamson then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    With your help directing unwanted sensible Tories toward the LibDems...
    Some current middle class Tories would be 19th century Liberals, some pro Brexit working class voters are Lord Salisbury or Disraeli Tories
    My conservative party has been a broad church until the ERG Spartans attempted a coup. Labeling fellow conservatives is not compatible a to a one nation party
    Except Disraeli started the 'One Nation' term when his main opponents were Gladstone's Liberals
    Boring
    Sorry you find the history of the party boring BigG
    The way you portray it it is more than boring
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,707
    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    If we leave aside the 2015 revelation that Corbyn was a friend and supporter of Paul Eisen, this has now been a constant running sore for over a year.

    At what point would a sensible person have got a grip?
    If we lived somewhere where Boris's favourite love Island contestant wasn't front page news it would be possible for Corbyn and co to start asking sensible questions whether it is desirable for Israel to describe itslf as a Jewish State' and to question Mark Regev- ex Israeli propaganda chief current Israeli Ambassador to London-'s part in the continuous stories-real and false-about Corbyn's so called 'anti semitism'.
    You mean, the false stories about him donating to Deir Yassin Remembered, or laying a wreath on a mass murderer's grave and lying about it, or saying the Jews don't get irony, or calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends, or protesting about a mural being taken down just because it was a piece of Nazi propaganda?

    Oh, hold in, those are true, aren't they?

    The real issue with Corbyn and Labour more generally is not what their enemies are saying about them, it's what they're actually saying and doing.
    Are those the strongest claims of anti semitism against corbyn? There is a reasonable case to be made that the only anti semitism in that list is 'Jews don't get irony'. A stereotype and a completely innacurate onre to boot. The rest are all Israel related.

    There is nothing anti semitic about calling Hezbollah friends. I know many very sane Lebanese Christians who would say exactly the same. They have done more for the poor in Lebanon than any other organisation over the last twenty five years. Their crime is that they defended their country from an Israel invasion relatively successfully. As for laying wreaths,,,for God's sake Thathcher had Pinochet home for tea. People dead or alive are multi faceted. If you haven't been you should visit Lebanon. An intelligent population which might give you a mre rounded view of Middle Eastern politics
    "Their crime is that they defended their country from an Israel invasion relatively successfully."

    Boy, if you think Hezbollah's only crime is that then you're seriously deluded.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You do realise that many could just leave the party and not join another party
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    Foxy said:

    Apparently Rebecca Long-Bailey has acquired the nickname of Rebecca Wrong Daily which rhymes.

    As to my views I was simply reporting the fact that she is the betting favourite.

    Hard to see Labour reviving without a Kinnock style purge of the new Militant Tendency, and I don't see RLB as capable of that. Rayner or Thornbury possibly, but maybe a real bruiser like Watson is needed. Not my party though.

    Have not seen much bruising from Watson of late, more like a cuddly toy
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You think 30 current Tory MPs should join the lib Dems?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
    With 64% of Scottish Leave voters still backing the Union according to John Curtice even if 51% of Remain voters now back independence No still remains narrowly ahead in Scotland despite Brexit.

    In Northern Ireland a technical solution can still be found for the Irish border ultimately
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
    The conservative party will not either
    Which sounds like it won't survive at all if I read you correctly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
    The conservative party will not either
    The Conservative Party will certainly not survive No Brexit as the Brexit Party will replace it, provided the Tories commit to deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal they will survive
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
    You’ll get more satisfaction talking to a brick wall
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    And you, as a Remainer, should go and join them. Good luck to you all.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You do realise that many could just leave the party and not join another party
    Fine
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,597
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tabman said:

    To what question is Rebecca Long--Bailey the answer?

    Who would make Labour nostalgic for Jeremy Corbyn?
    That’s hardly a list of one, though.
    Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

    https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2194/1523802715_ae1ff28cf5_z.jpg
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You think 30 current Tory MPs should join the lib Dems?
    If they refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
    The conservative party will not either
    Which sounds like it won't survive at all if I read you correctly.
    It really depends on many factors but if it morphs into a Farage stye Brexit Party it will fracture and in time a new alignment of politics will take place
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,707
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    Apparently Rebecca Long-Bailey has acquired the nickname of Rebecca Wrong Daily which rhymes.

    As to my views I was simply reporting the fact that she is the betting favourite.

    Hard to see Labour reviving without a Kinnock style purge of the new Militant Tendency, and I don't see RLB as capable of that. Rayner or Thornbury possibly, but maybe a real bruiser like Watson is needed. Not my party though.

    Have not seen much bruising from Watson of late, more like a cuddly toy
    Watson might be having a squeaky bum time over a certain current court case.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You think 30 current Tory MPs should join the lib Dems?
    Getting rid of the chaff. The Conservative Party will be down to a pure core of both MPs and members before you know it. Sadly, that number won't include @HYUFD who, as a Remainer, will be excluded from that band of brothers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    And you, as a Remainer, should go and join them. Good luck to you all.
    No, I now back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
    With 64% of Scottish Leave voters still backing the Union according to John Curtice even if 51% of Remain voters now back independence No still remains narrowly ahead in Scotland despite Brexit.

    In Northern Ireland a technical solution can still be found for the Irish border ultimately
    You're asking them if they value being shackled to an economic basket case more than membership of the EU.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
    With 64% of Scottish Leave voters still backing the Union according to John Curtice even if 51% of Remain voters now back independence No still remains narrowly ahead in Scotland despite Brexit.

    In Northern Ireland a technical solution can still be found for the Irish border ultimately
    You're asking them if they value being shackled to an economic basket case more than membership of the EU.
    The 5th largest economy not a basket case and England still by far Scotland's biggest export destination, more than to the EU combined
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You do realise that many could just leave the party and not join another party
    Fine
    You are a very sad convert to the cult.

    Once you talked some sense but recently you appear to have been brain washed, probably by spending too much time with the likes of IDS
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
    The conservative party will not either
    Which sounds like it won't survive at all if I read you correctly.
    It really depends on many factors but if it morphs into a Farage stye Brexit Party it will fracture and in time a new alignment of politics will take place
    Long overdue if you ask me. The one positive from brexBris it alpeaapto be hastening the demise of each main party coalition.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    TOPPING said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You think 30 current Tory MPs should join the lib Dems?
    Getting rid of the chaff. The Conservative Party will be down to a pure core of both MPs and members before you know it. Sadly, that number won't include @HYUFD who, as a Remainer, will be excluded from that band of brothers.
    Great. Bring it on!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    And you, as a Remainer, should go and join them. Good luck to you all.
    No, I now back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st
    So what you voted Remain at the only opportunity that it actually mattered hence you are a Remainer hence you don't belong in the Conservative Party.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
    With 64% of Scottish Leave voters still backing the Union according to John Curtice even if 51% of Remain voters now back independence No still remains narrowly ahead in Scotland despite Brexit.

    In Northern Ireland a technical solution can still be found for the Irish border ultimately
    You're asking them if they value being shackled to an economic basket case more than membership of the EU.
    The 5th largest economy not a basket case and England still by far Scotland's biggest export destination, more than to the EU combined
    And how big is the EU27 compared to the rumpUK?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    TOPPING said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You think 30 current Tory MPs should join the lib Dems?
    Getting rid of the chaff. The Conservative Party will be down to a pure core of both MPs and members before you know it. Sadly, that number won't include @HYUFD who, as a Remainer, will be excluded from that band of brothers.
    He's like the PB version of Owen Jones, desperately trying to make up for not being part of the cult at the beginning.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited July 2019
    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    You mean, the false stories about him donating to Deir Yassin Remembered, or laying a wreath on a mass murderer's grave and lying about it, or saying the Jews don't get irony, or calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends, or protesting about a mural being taken down just because it was a piece of Nazi propaganda?

    Oh, hold in, those are true, aren't they?

    The real issue with Corbyn and Labour more generally is not what their enemies are saying about them, it's what they're actually saying and doing.

    Are those the strongest claims of anti semitism against corbyn? There is a reasonable case to be made that the only anti semitism in that list is 'Jews don't get irony'. A stereotype and a completely innacurate onre to boot. The rest are all Israel related.

    There is nothing anti semitic about calling Hezbollah friends. I know many very sane Lebanese Christians who would say exactly the same. They have done more for the poor in Lebanon than any other organisation over the last twenty five years. Their crime is that they defended their country from an Israel invasion relatively successfully. As for laying wreaths,,,for God's sake Thathcher had Pinochet home for tea. People dead or alive are multi faceted. If you haven't been you should visit Lebanon. An intelligent population which might give you a mre rounded view of Middle Eastern politics
    So you do concede he is antisemitic? Well, it's a start.

    And calling any organisation that denies the Holocaust a friend, or worse, giving money to it, is also clearly antisemitic.

    As was that mural, which was based on Nazi propaganda, and your feeble attempt to ignore it has not gone unnoticed.

    Corbyn may not think he is a racist but his excuses for behaviour which in all any non-Labour politician he would rightly roundly condemn border on the asinine.

    And as for the whataboutery with regard to Pinochet - are you really saying he's OK because he's done some things that are comparable to Thatcher? That strikes me as a dangerous argument...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You think 30 current Tory MPs should join the lib Dems?
    Getting rid of the chaff. The Conservative Party will be down to a pure core of both MPs and members before you know it. Sadly, that number won't include @HYUFD who, as a Remainer, will be excluded from that band of brothers.
    He's like the PB version of Owen Jones, desperately trying to make up for not being part of the cult at the beginning.
    Classic Stockholm Syndrome. But he is by his own description in the wrong party.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    This ad is further evidence who Boris might want a general election this year ideally after delivering Brexit, when Corbyn is still Labour leader.

    However if Labour keeps Corbyn as leader and then follows him with a Corbynite like Laura Pidcock or Rebecca Long-Bailey or John McDonnell then serious questions must now be asked as to whether the LDs, whether with Swinson, Davey or Umunna now have more credible candidates for centre left voters to be PM to take on Boris and Farage than Labour do.

    If so and Boris does deliver Brexit to remove the threat from the Brexit Party could it actually be Labour not the Tories under existential threat with a reversion to the 19th century battles between the Tories and Liberals as the 2 main parties rather than the Tories and Labour who dominated the 20th century and the first two decades of the 21st?

    If the impossible does occur and Boris gets us out of the EU by October 31st Labour is likely to have a problem.

    However for that to occur Boris has to achieve something and it's not clear how he will do it.
    As long as Boris does not extend again (even if that requires a Queen's Speech in November to prorogue Parliament past October 31st as he plans as a last resort, then the Brexit Party will not replace the Tories as the main party of the right).

    However Brexit or No Brexit the LDs could soon replace Corbyn Labour as the main party of the centre left just leaving Labour with hard-core socialists and some inner city ethnic minorities
    Once again how does Boris do that.

    And if you think the Tories will survive a No Deal brexit I think you are in for a surprise or 15 (as unexpected events trigger other unexpected events)...
    The Tories will survive a No Deal Brexit, the Tories will not survive No Brexit at all
    The United Kingdom won't.
    With 64% of Scottish Leave voters still backing the Union according to John Curtice even if 51% of Remain voters now back independence No still remains narrowly ahead in Scotland despite Brexit.

    In Northern Ireland a technical solution can still be found for the Irish border ultimately
    You're asking them if they value being shackled to an economic basket case more than membership of the EU.
    Even if No is still narrowly ahead (it’s MoE in the polls), please remember that Yes went from 28% to 45% during the referendum campaign. This is why nobody will grant a new Section 30: they know the Unionists need to start with a clear lead to have any chance of winning.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    The remarkable fact in all this is that the Lib Dems, SNP and Greens have been true to their principles and are rapidly gaining popularity. They are also strong revoke parties and the pendulum is swinging strongly their way

    It is evidenced in the huge gains the Lib Dems are making in local elections and predictions coming out of Scotland of a complete wipe out for the conservatives and labour

    Unless Boris can achieve a deal it is highly likely the momentum to revoke will overwhelm brexit, and that is especially true in a no deal situation where revoke will become the force de jure
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133

    TOPPING said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You think 30 current Tory MPs should join the lib Dems?
    Getting rid of the chaff. The Conservative Party will be down to a pure core of both MPs and members before you know it. Sadly, that number won't include @HYUFD who, as a Remainer, will be excluded from that band of brothers.
    He's like the PB version of Owen Jones, desperately trying to make up for not being part of the cult at the beginning.
    Well observed comment
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Whoops-a-daisy!

    Boris Johnson Warned By US Senator That Trade Deal Will Have 'Tough' Time Passing Congress
    "There is bipartisan consensus against blowing up the Good Friday agreement."

    https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/chris-murphy-boris-johnson-trade-warning_uk_5d2d79b0e4b0a873f640d234
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Quite pleased about my decision to sell my London flat last year:

    https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1151412204543074304
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Quite pleased about my decision to sell my London flat last year:

    https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1151412204543074304

    It's interesting that the South East and East have continued to grow.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    With the greatest respect you are beginning to sound like a programmed robot
    HUYFD is gradually disappearing down a Plato-shaped rabbit hole!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    Tabman said:



    And how big is the EU27 compared to the rumpUK?

    EU27 is France, Germany, Italy and a bunch of no-hope tiddlers. Same as before Brexit.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Completely fing bonkers and even more stupid expecting to win an election amongst the chaos
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You think 30 current Tory MPs should join the lib Dems?
    Getting rid of the chaff. The Conservative Party will be down to a pure core of both MPs and members before you know it. Sadly, that number won't include @HYUFD who, as a Remainer, will be excluded from that band of brothers.
    He's like the PB version of Owen Jones, desperately trying to make up for not being part of the cult at the beginning.
    Classic Stockholm Syndrome. But he is by his own description in the wrong party.
    For a Tory, HY spends an awful lot of time and energy bigging up the Brexit Party.

    Someone needs to gently point out that the Brexit Party are opponents of the Conservative Party, not best buddies.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You think 30 current Tory MPs should join the lib Dems?
    Getting rid of the chaff. The Conservative Party will be down to a pure core of both MPs and members before you know it. Sadly, that number won't include @HYUFD who, as a Remainer, will be excluded from that band of brothers.
    He's like the PB version of Owen Jones, desperately trying to make up for not being part of the cult at the beginning.
    Classic Stockholm Syndrome. But he is by his own description in the wrong party.
    For a Tory, HY spends an awful lot of time and energy bigging up the Brexit Party.

    Someone needs to gently point out that the Brexit Party are opponents of the Conservative Party, not best buddies.
    Well said
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    nichomar said:

    Completely fing bonkers and even more stupid expecting to win an election amongst the chaos
    They don’t care about winning elections any more.

    They don’t care about keeping Scotland or NI any more.

    Heck, they don’t even care if this is the end of the Conservative and Unionist Party.

    The only thing they care about is the cliff. They have a death wish.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/18/most-conservative-members-would-see-party-destroye
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    Just discovered that the Republican House of 2016/2017 made it out of bounds to call Trump racist in the Senate and Congress

    https://twitter.com/CraigCaplan/status/1151221245628821504?s=19

    The reference is actually to this:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/pelosi-squad-and-fight-over-trump-house-floor/594169/
    Among the authorities that govern House procedure in this regard is Thomas Jefferson’s Manual of Parliamentary Practice, published in 1801 and used by the House since the 1830s. It forbids language “which is personally offensive to the president”

    Of course such a rule is rendered otiose by a president who regards anything other than slavish devotion as personally offensive.

    One might also remark that a slaveowner who raped his female property is perhaps not the ideal authority to reference in this matter.
    THe problem with trying to use this for the Republicans is that calling Trump a racist is a simple statement of fact. The minor detail that if applied logically to all immigrants the whole Trump family would have to be deported shows he is targeting only non-whites.

    Although I do agree with him he doesn't have a racist bone in his body. Allowing for the large lump of bone in his arse that masquerades as his brain, he has 207 of them.
    I wonder if he truly believes he is not racist. Its hard to see how he could, but he clearly knows enough that being a racist is bad and he cannot possibly be bad, ergo he must not be racist.
    He probably does. David Irving, for example, couldn't understand why saying his books were rejected by mainstream publishing houses because the Jews objected to them was racist.

    And there are several people in another organisation which shall be nameless who believe they are not racist when they clearly are (THAT mural was all the evidence needed).

    But even if Trump were shrewd and sensible (he isn't) he doesn't get to say what is and isn't racism.

    And I say again, since his tweets obviously only applied to selected first and second generation immigrants, those with non-white skins, he was clearly being racist.
    I don't think he gives it much thought either way.
    All people are merely tools to him, irrespective of race or creed.

    But yes, of course he is racist
    Indeed, he is prejudiced against those who are not orange.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    You mean, the false stories about him donating to Deir Yassin Remembered, or laying a wreath on a mass murderer's grave and lying about it, or saying the Jews don't get irony, or calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends, or protesting about a mural being taken down just because it was a piece of Nazi propaganda?

    Oh, hold in, those are true, aren't they?

    The real issue with Corbyn and Labour more generally is not what their enemies are saying about them, it's what they're actually saying and doing.

    Are those the strongest claims of anti semitism against corbyn? There is a reasonable case to be made that the only anti semitism in that list is 'Jews don't get irony'. A stereotype and a completely innacurate onre to boot. The rest are all Israel related.

    There is nothing anti semitic about calling Hezbollah friends. I know many very sane Lebanese Christians who would say exactly the same. They have done more for the poor in Lebanon than any other organisation over the last twenty five years. Their crime is that they defended their country from an Israel invasion relatively successfully. As for laying wreaths,,,for God's sake Thathcher had Pinochet home for tea. People dead or alive are multi faceted. If you haven't been you should visit Lebanon. An intelligent population which might give you a mre rounded view of Middle Eastern politics
    So you do concede he is antisemitic? Well, it's a start.

    And calling any organisation that denies the Holocaust a friend, or worse, giving money to it, is also clearly antisemitic.

    As was that mural, which was based on Nazi propaganda, and your feeble attempt to ignore it has not gone unnoticed.

    Corbyn may not think he is a racist but his excuses for behaviour which in all any non-Labour politician he would rightly roundly condemn border on the asinine.

    And as for the whataboutery with regard to Pinochet - are you really saying he's OK because he's done some things that are comparable to Thatcher? That strikes me as a dangerous argument...
    Recognising the mural, which purported to show real bankers, at least two of them not Jewish, as based on Nazi propaganda, surely depends on a knowledge of Nazi propaganda. It seems entirely plausible that Corbyn did not see the connection.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    tlg86 said:

    Quite pleased about my decision to sell my London flat last year:

    https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1151412204543074304

    It's interesting that the South East and East have continued to grow.
    There's probably lots of local variations there as well with Oxford, Cambridge and stockbroker towns having no growth but prices increasing in the likes of Basildon and Crawley.

    The North-East looks the real outlier, it seems to be diverging generally from the rest of the North.

    But overall its the house price pattern the country needs.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @HYUFD represents a substantial strand of Conservative party thinking. I disagree with it strongly, but piling on him doesn't show the site in a good light.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,597

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You think 30 current Tory MPs should join the lib Dems?
    Getting rid of the chaff. The Conservative Party will be down to a pure core of both MPs and members before you know it. Sadly, that number won't include @HYUFD who, as a Remainer, will be excluded from that band of brothers.
    He's like the PB version of Owen Jones, desperately trying to make up for not being part of the cult at the beginning.
    Classic Stockholm Syndrome. But he is by his own description in the wrong party.
    For a Tory, HY spends an awful lot of time and energy bigging up the Brexit Party.

    Someone needs to gently point out that the Brexit Party are opponents of the Conservative Party, not best buddies.
    I fear that the Conservatives see their former supporters over with the BXP as the wife and children having taken a temporary break, more like a holiday really. In ten years time they will wake up and notice that they are living in a bedsit over a flower shop eating beans out of a can.

    (Similar can probably be applied to those who have left LibDemwards.)
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    nichomar said:

    Completely fing bonkers and even more stupid expecting to win an election amongst the chaos
    Agreed it’s demented . You’d go to the country with the background of no deal .
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    You mean, the false stories about him donating to Deir Yassin Remembered, or laying a wreath on a mass murderer's grave and lying about it, or saying the Jews don't get irony, or calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends, or protesting about a mural being taken down just because it was a piece of Nazi propaganda?

    Oh, hold in, those are true, aren't they?

    The real issue with Corbyn and Labour more generally is not what their enemies are saying about them, it's what they're actually saying and doing.

    Are those the strongest claims of anti semitism against corbyn? There is a reasonable case to be made that the only anti semitism in that list is 'Jews don't get irony'. A stereotype and a completely innacurate onre to boot. The rest are all Israel related.

    There is nothing anti semitic about calling Hezbollah friends. I know many very sane Lebanese Christians who would say exactly the same. They have done more for the poor in Lebanon than any other organisation over the last twenty five years. Their crime is that they defended their country from an Israel invasion relatively successfully. As for laying wreaths,,,for God's sake Thathcher had Pinochet home for tea. People dead or alive are multi faceted. If you haven't been you should visit Lebanon. An intelligent population which might give you a mre rounded view of Middle Eastern politics
    So you do concede he is antisemitic? Well, it's a start.

    And calling any organisation that denies the Holocaust a friend, or worse, giving money to it, is also clearly antisemitic.

    As was that mural, which was based on Nazi propaganda, and your feeble attempt to ignore it has not gone unnoticed.

    Corbyn may not think he is a racist but his excuses for behaviour which in all any non-Labour politician he would rightly roundly condemn border on the asinine.

    And as for the whataboutery with regard to Pinochet - are you really saying he's OK because he's done some things that are comparable to Thatcher? That strikes me as a dangerous argument...
    Recognising the mural, which purported to show real bankers, at least two of them not Jewish, as based on Nazi propaganda, surely depends on a knowledge of Nazi propaganda. It seems entirely plausible that Corbyn did not see the connection.
    He's not slow to see connections to Israel....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,707

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    You mean, the false stories about him donating to Deir Yassin Remembered, or laying a wreath on a mass murderer's grave and lying about it, or saying the Jews don't get irony, or calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends, or protesting about a mural being taken down just because it was a piece of Nazi propaganda?

    Oh, hold in, those are true, aren't they?

    The real issue with Corbyn and Labour more generally is not what their enemies are saying about them, it's what they're actually saying and doing.

    Are those the strongest claims of anti semitism against corbyn? There is a reasonable case to be made that the only anti semitism in that list is 'Jews don't get irony'. A stereotype and a completely innacurate onre to boot. The rest are all Israel related.

    There is nothing anti semitic about calling Hezbollah friends. I know many very sane Lebanese Christians who would say exactly the same. They have done more for the poor in Lebanon than any other organisation over the last twenty five years. Their crime is that they defended their country from an Israel invasion relatively successfully. As for laying wreaths,,,for God's sake Thathcher had Pinochet home for tea. People dead or alive are multi faceted. If you haven't been you should visit Lebanon. An intelligent population which might give you a mre rounded view of Middle Eastern politics
    So you do concede he is antisemitic? Well, it's a start.

    And calling any organisation that denies the Holocaust a friend, or worse, giving money to it, is also clearly antisemitic.

    As was that mural, which was based on Nazi propaganda, and your feeble attempt to ignore it has not gone unnoticed.

    Corbyn may not think he is a racist but his excuses for behaviour which in all any non-Labour politician he would rightly roundly condemn border on the asinine.

    And as for the whataboutery with regard to Pinochet - are you really saying he's OK because he's done some things that are comparable to Thatcher? That strikes me as a dangerous argument...
    Recognising the mural, which purported to show real bankers, at least two of them not Jewish, as based on Nazi propaganda, surely depends on a knowledge of Nazi propaganda. It seems entirely plausible that Corbyn did not see the connection.
    That's a really poor excuse. The following puts it well:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/28/antisemitism-open-your-eyes-jeremy-corbyn-labour

    If Corbyn didn't recognise the tropes within the mural and think "danger, danger!", then frankly he's utterly clueless.

    Worse, he's so clueless that he's in no position to comment on anti-Semitism by anyone - including himself.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Quite pleased about my decision to sell my London flat last year:

    https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1151412204543074304

    Good job I bought a house in the North East of England last summer... 👀
  • theakestheakes Posts: 931
    See Lib Dems won the Cardiff by election by 30%, in 2017 neck and neck with Conservative. Is this a sign of what will happen up the road at Brecon in a fortnight. Whatever it is it appears to be another one in the eye for "Team Boris"
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    Lads it’s on.

    Full blown constitutional crisis this year, maybe even next week.

    Wha'ppen?
    So I reckon there’s at least six Tories that will VONC the government to stop No Deal and I think that number will rise.

    Boris needs to tell the Commons he will not prorogue Parliament to deliver a No Deal Brexit.
    Boris will of course not say that and see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to the Brexit Party, if any Tory MPs refuse to back Brexit Deal or No Deal on October 31st as Boris will get a mandate for from Tory members next week then they can join the LDs before they are deselected
    How many new MPs can we expect?
    Up to 30, a new pro Boris Tory candidate for every MP who votes against an October 31st Brexit Deal or No Deal
    You do realise that many could just leave the party and not join another party
    Fine
    You are a very sad convert to the cult.

    Once you talked some sense but recently you appear to have been brain washed, probably by spending too much time with the likes of IDS
    Being brainwashed by someone who is renowned for not being that strong in the grey cells department is a sad indictment
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    TOPPING said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    If we leave aside the 2015 revelation that Corbyn was a friend and supporter of Paul Eisen, this has now been a constant running sore for over a year.

    At what point would a sensible person have got a grip?
    If we lived somewhere where Boris's favourite love Island contestant wasn't front page news it would be possible for Corbyn and co to start asking sensible questions whether it is desirable for Israel to describe itslf as a Jewish State' and to question Mark Regev- ex Israeli propaganda chief current Israeli Ambassador to London-'s part in the continuous stories-real and false-about Corbyn's so called 'anti semitism'.
    Would you call England a Christian State?
    It's not a state of any kind (except in the sense of being in 'a bit of a')
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    @HYUFD represents a substantial strand of Conservative party thinking. I disagree with it strongly, but piling on him doesn't show the site in a good light.

    The Jezziah represents a substantial strand of Labour thinking bout I don't see anyone criticising the criticism he gets, which is considerably worse than anything HYUFD gets.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Tabman said:



    And how big is the EU27 compared to the rumpUK?

    EU27 is France, Germany, Italy and a bunch of no-hope tiddlers. Same as before Brexit.
    4-5 times bigger, looking at 2016 figures for GDP.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    OllyT said:

    @HYUFD represents a substantial strand of Conservative party thinking. I disagree with it strongly, but piling on him doesn't show the site in a good light.

    The Jezziah represents a substantial strand of Labour thinking bout I don't see anyone criticising the criticism he gets, which is considerably worse than anything HYUFD gets.
    Perhaps because HYUFD isn't a standard-bearer for anti-semitism?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    @HYUFD represents a substantial strand of Conservative party thinking. I disagree with it strongly, but piling on him doesn't show the site in a good light.

    HYUFD is probably one of the more honest pb.com tories as they, au moins, don't try to clothe their rabidly partisan sentiments in the motley of a higher moral purpose.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    OllyT said:

    @HYUFD represents a substantial strand of Conservative party thinking. I disagree with it strongly, but piling on him doesn't show the site in a good light.

    The Jezziah represents a substantial strand of Labour thinking bout I don't see anyone criticising the criticism he gets, which is considerably worse than anything HYUFD gets.
    They are both very similar. Their cultish unquestioning lapdog loyalty to their respective highly flawed heroes suggest they must have had training from Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    nico67 said:

    nichomar said:

    Completely fing bonkers and even more stupid expecting to win an election amongst the chaos
    Agreed it’s demented . You’d go to the country with the background of no deal .
    Cameron left Downing Street with an elephant sized turd on the doorstep.

    Johnson is going to leave Downing Street with a putrefying whale carcass on the doorstep.

    Why do Tory PMs expect everyone else to clean up their mess?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    @HYUFD represents a substantial strand of Conservative party thinking. I disagree with it strongly, but piling on him doesn't show the site in a good light.

    You are correct that @HYUFD represents a substantial strand of BREXIT thinking within the Conservative party.

    However the site is certainly strong enough to withstand robust debate on his views. Certainly he is not backward in coming forward to espouse them and counter argue the many who disagree with him.

    PB is not snowflake central as you have certainly realized from the concerted efforts to rubbish your ideas and your hardly pusillanimous responses.
This discussion has been closed.