Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Completely irrelevant. The Prime Minister could be an unelected Trappist monk in constitutional theory. You and @tlg86 are just embarrassing ourself with reflex deranged Europhobia. The two systems are pretty similar.
It is not Europhobia. It is simply pointing out that there is an inconsistency in having a separate executive and legislature and the people not directly electing both. As I've just said, I think the fear of the wrong person winning is a barrier to EU federalism.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Completely irrelevant. The Prime Minister could be an unelected Trappist monk in constitutional theory. You and @tlg86 are just embarrassing ourself with reflex deranged Europhobia. The two systems are pretty similar.
Constitutional theory and constitutional practice are two very different things. Constitutional practice is that the PM must be an elected MP and the one time in modern history a party chose a leader that wasn't a sitting MP a by-election was sought so they could be elected.
If Parliament chose an unelected Trappist monk to become PM that would be wrong and unelected.
It’s a bit of a silly argument. When Juncker was appointed as the “candidate of the EU Parliament” Eurosceptics ridiculed it because most people “weren’t really voting for him” (and didn’t know who he was). Now they complain that Von der Leyen isn’t legitimate because she wasn’t someone drawn from the EU Parliament. Short of abolishing the post, what process would be acceptable? (bearing in mind direct election would be seen as an unacceptable move towards a superstate, removing the powers of the democratically elected heads of a Government).
I've no more issue with Johnson being elected PM by the Conservative membership than I had with Callaghan, Major, Brown and May all becoming PM without winning a GE either.
It's how politics works - at some point Johnson will decide he needs his own mandate but he has the 2017 GE mandate which made the Conservatives the largest party. That will keep him until 2022 at which point there will need to be a GE.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Completely irrelevant. The Prime Minister could be an unelected Trappist monk in constitutional theory. You and @tlg86 are just embarrassing ourself with reflex deranged Europhobia. The two systems are pretty similar.
It is not Europhobia. It is simply pointing out that there is an inconsistency in having a separate executive and legislature and the people not directly electing both. As I've just said, I think the fear of the wrong person winning is a barrier to EU federalism.
I expect that Nigel Farage intends to run for Prime Minister from outside Parliament. And death cult Leavers will support him all the way if he does.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Completely irrelevant. The Prime Minister could be an unelected Trappist monk in constitutional theory. You and @tlg86 are just embarrassing ourself with reflex deranged Europhobia. The two systems are pretty similar.
It is not Europhobia. It is simply pointing out that there is an inconsistency in having a separate executive and legislature and the people not directly electing both. As I've just said, I think the fear of the wrong person winning is a barrier to EU federalism.
Indeed it is a basic matter of democracy. I'd be perfectly fine with a directly elected President of the EU, I don't think its unreasonable given there are already EU elections if the Commission President isn't to be an MEP.
It’s a bit of a silly argument. When Juncker was appointed as the “candidate of the EU Parliament” Eurosceptics ridiculed it because most people “weren’t really voting for him” (and didn’t know who he was). Now they complain that Von deer Leyden isn’t legitimate because she wasn’t someone drawn from the EU Parliament. Short of abolishing the post, what process would be acceptable?
Obviously most of us do, but isn't it a bit 'wow'.
(spoiler alert to above question)
I've long thought the replacement-leader-elect (RLE) was really quite poor. If I say that about a Labour politician then in absolute standards that's below coco-the-clown (deceased), and the measure was after death.
However I have to say the the RLE has pulled up her stockings. She's starting to be ok. What'll be really interesting is when she starts to have a mind of her own. She may even become a Tory.
At current odds I think she is correctly priced. (Unlike David Milliband)
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Completely irrelevant. The Prime Minister could be an unelected Trappist monk in constitutional theory. You and @tlg86 are just embarrassing ourself with reflex deranged Europhobia. The two systems are pretty similar.
Except von der Leyden has far less power than a PM and is beholden to both the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament, both of which are composed of directly elected politicians. As you say, this is reflex Europhobia from people who are so committed to democracy that they are happy to see Parliament closed down to implement a policy which British voters have rejected in every election where they have been given an opportunity to express a view.
Well done to the new EU President who I had never heard of until two weeks ago on winning her election. Commiserations to the other candidates... whoever they are.
Not that it matters anyway. The EU has countless federalists it will put in, so she is no different to any of the other failed and unpopular Presidents we've had.
A federalist though, ha. How's that Remain and Reform argument working for ya?
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
And what happens if he loses that vote? Compare it with what would have happened had von der Leyen lost today.
In both cases new candidates acceptable to Parliament would be sought.
They don’t want to accept the fact that it is democratic because they really don’t have any interest in understanding the institution.
It’s a bit of a silly argument. When Juncker was appointed as the “candidate of the EU Parliament” Eurosceptics ridiculed it because most people “weren’t really voting for him” (and didn’t know who he was). Now they complain that Von deer Leyden isn’t legitimate because she wasn’t someone drawn from the EU Parliament. Short of abolishing the post, what process would be acceptable?
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Completely irrelevant. The Prime Minister could be an unelected Trappist monk in constitutional theory. You and @tlg86 are just embarrassing ourself with reflex deranged Europhobia. The two systems are pretty similar.
It is not Europhobia. It is simply pointing out that there is an inconsistency in having a separate executive and legislature and the people not directly electing both. As I've just said, I think the fear of the wrong person winning is a barrier to EU federalism.
I expect that Nigel Farage intends to run for Prime Minister from outside Parliament. And death cult Leavers will support him all the way if he does.
He and 300+ of his party will have to be elected by the people first.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Completely irrelevant. The Prime Minister could be an unelected Trappist monk in constitutional theory. You and @tlg86 are just embarrassing ourself with reflex deranged Europhobia. The two systems are pretty similar.
It is not Europhobia. It is simply pointing out that there is an inconsistency in having a separate executive and legislature and the people not directly electing both. As I've just said, I think the fear of the wrong person winning is a barrier to EU federalism.
I expect that Nigel Farage intends to run for Prime Minister from outside Parliament. And death cult Leavers will support him all the way if he does.
He and 300+ of his party will have to be elected by the people first.
Who elected the 383 MEPs who voted for Ursula von der Leyen?
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Just like the office of PM then. Unless you live in Maidenhead.
No it fucking isn't. The PM is, usually, an elected MP. And the last time they weren't, the situation was rectified asap.
So. Presumably you reject the legitimacy of the entirety of the US Cabinet then?
They are appointed by a democratically elected head of the executive. Every four years voters get to choose who that person is.
They are appointed by democratically elected MEPs. Every four years voters get to choose who those people are.
Not good enough.
There are many democracies which have direct elections for the Head of Government (US/French style) There are many democracies which have direct elections for the legislature and primus inter pares one of those become Head of Government (UK/Ireland style).
How many democracies are there where the Head of Government is someone appointed after the elections from anyone anywhere and not someone who stood at the election? I can't think of any democracy anywhere that acts like that. Not even Iran.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
If you're referring to constituencies, why do you ignore the fact that she was elected by the people of Hannover, as well as being elected by MEPs today?
She was elected to a foreign country to serve domestically in a foreign country.
I wouldn't expect a local State level Representative in Texas to suddenly be elevated to POTUS without the public getting involved.
Although. As I pointed out earlier, they are frequently raised to Cabinet level, or to the Supreme Court in exactly the same manner, regardless of whether they have been elected to owt or not. Btw, do you support direct election to the EU. An EU directly elected President for example?
Yes.
If the EU is to have a President it should be directly elected. Otherwise it should be indirectly elected from MEPs.
Then we are in agreement then. At least about the first bit. Not sure that is a mainstream view mind.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Completely irrelevant. The Prime Minister could be an unelected Trappist monk in constitutional theory. You and @tlg86 are just embarrassing ourself with reflex deranged Europhobia. The two systems are pretty similar.
It is not Europhobia. It is simply pointing out that there is an inconsistency in having a separate executive and legislature and the people not directly electing both. As I've just said, I think the fear of the wrong person winning is a barrier to EU federalism.
I expect that Nigel Farage intends to run for Prime Minister from outside Parliament. And death cult Leavers will support him all the way if he does.
He and 300+ of his party will have to be elected by the people first.
He wouldn’t have to be. If Brexit Party got a majority there is nothing constitutionally preventinghim being PM without being an MP. We already have the SNP MPs taking orders from outside Parliament.
A question for grammar Nazi's: When starting a sentence with her name, is it 'von der Leyen' or Von der Leyen?
You normally always capitalise first letter in a sentence, but you also normally don't change capitalisations in names, so which rule takes precedence?
Capitalise the first letter of a sentence, regardless of what the word is.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Just like the office of PM then. Unless you live in Maidenhead.
No it fucking isn't. The PM is, usually, an elected MP. And the last time they weren't, the situation was rectified asap.
So. Presumably you reject the legitimacy of the entirety of the US Cabinet then?
They are appointed by a democratically elected head of the executive. Every four years voters get to choose who that person is.
Re the US, that's not actually true,
The President is elected by the representatives of States via the electoral college, and the States have their own varying systems for how they choose their delegates for the electoral college.
Whilst I do understand and agree with Mr Meeks' reasoning about intentionally calling a GE, doesn't Boris' insistence on leaving on 31st October with or without a deal make it extremely likely there will be a VoNC and a subsequent GE? I know the article says that there is 14 days for an alternative Government to be formed but given the history of conflicting Parliamentary votes over the last year and their ability to vote down all options at the same time does that not make it very likely that a VoNC results in a GE?
So, let's assume that Boris Johnson is elected Conservative leader next week.
Let us then assume that four Conservatives publicly resign the whip. Can Mrs May recommend to the Palace that Mr Johnson has the confidence of the House?
It's an incredibly contentious question. If she says "yes", then he becomes Prime Minister, and the instruments of government are his. It becomes (almost) in his power to get No Deal through by timing of the Queen's speech and the like.
If she says "no", then what? Does Boris say "yes I do", and then we have a vote of confidence in the House? Could Mrs May, while lame duck PM, request an extension to Christmas so as to allow time for an election, irrespective of what happens in a VoNC?
Genuinely unknown territory. Never been there with FTPA in place. TM must stay PM until someone else is believed by her to be able to form a government. I think.
There's only a few hundred of them and they can count. I guess that Boris could even become PM as a minority leader (including DUP but minus some Tory defectors) for at least a while. But why bother, Mrs May would still be in a better position than Boris in those circumstances.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Completely irrelevant. The Prime Minister could be an unelected Trappist monk in constitutional theory. You and @tlg86 are just embarrassing ourself with reflex deranged Europhobia. The two systems are pretty similar.
It is not Europhobia. It is simply pointing out that there is an inconsistency in having a separate executive and legislature and the people not directly electing both. As I've just said, I think the fear of the wrong person winning is a barrier to EU federalism.
I expect that Nigel Farage intends to run for Prime Minister from outside Parliament. And death cult Leavers will support him all the way if he does.
He and 300+ of his party will have to be elected by the people first.
He wouldn’t have to be. If Brexit Party got a majority there is nothing constitutionally preventinghim being PM without being an MP. We already have the SNP MPs taking orders from outside Parliament.
Just to be clear, I would not be supportive of the PM not being an elected MP.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Completely irrelevant. The Prime Minister could be an unelected Trappist monk in constitutional theory. You and @tlg86 are just embarrassing ourself with reflex deranged Europhobia. The two systems are pretty similar.
Except von der Leyden has far less power than a PM and is beholden to both the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament, both of which are composed of directly elected politicians. As you say, this is reflex Europhobia from people who are so committed to democracy that they are happy to see Parliament closed down to implement a policy which British voters have rejected in every election where they have been given an opportunity to express a view.
Nobody is "committed to democracy". It allows the other chap a say.
Many, if not all, of society's ills come from democracy. We'd be worse off without it, but there's very little to recommend it.
There is hope though - perhaps biblical prophecy has dropped an 's'. It may be that Mr Meeks will inherit the Earth. (Hope you're ready Alastair - fresh socks)
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Just like the office of PM then. Unless you live in Maidenhead.
No it fucking isn't. The PM is, usually, an elected MP. And the last time they weren't, the situation was rectified asap.
So. Presumably you reject the legitimacy of the entirety of the US Cabinet then?
They are appointed by a democratically elected head of the executive. Every four years voters get to choose who that person is.
They are appointed by democratically elected MEPs. Every four years voters get to choose who those people are.
Not good enough.
There are many democracies which have direct elections for the Head of Government (US/French style) There are many democracies which have direct elections for the legislature and primus inter pares one of those become Head of Government (UK/Ireland style).
How many democracies are there where the Head of Government is someone appointed after the elections from anyone anywhere and not someone who stood at the election? I can't think of any democracy anywhere that acts like that. Not even Iran.
Did anyone ever vote for Gerald Ford to be the US President? From memory he was not on the ticket in 1972.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Just like the office of PM then. Unless you live in Maidenhead.
No it fucking isn't. The PM is, usually, an elected MP. And the last time they weren't, the situation was rectified asap.
So. Presumably you reject the legitimacy of the entirety of the US Cabinet then?
They are appointed by a democratically elected head of the executive. Every four years voters get to choose who that person is.
Re the US, that's not actually true,
The President is elected by the representatives of States via the electoral college, and the States have their own varying systems for how they choose their delegates for the electoral college.
That's a fair point, but if the EU member states did the same for the commission president, then that would be fine. Anyone want to distribute the electoral college votes?
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Completely irrelevant. The Prime Minister could be an unelected Trappist monk in constitutional theory. You and @tlg86 are just embarrassing ourself with reflex deranged Europhobia. The two systems are pretty similar.
It is not Europhobia. It is simply pointing out that there is an inconsistency in having a separate executive and legislature and the people not directly electing both. As I've just said, I think the fear of the wrong person winning is a barrier to EU federalism.
I expect that Nigel Farage intends to run for Prime Minister from outside Parliament. And death cult Leavers will support him all the way if he does.
He and 300+ of his party will have to be elected by the people first.
And I did try to explain earlier why it will not happen
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Just like the office of PM then. Unless you live in Maidenhead.
No it fucking isn't. The PM is, usually, an elected MP. And the last time they weren't, the situation was rectified asap.
So. Presumably you reject the legitimacy of the entirety of the US Cabinet then?
They are appointed by a democratically elected head of the executive. Every four years voters get to choose who that person is.
Re the US, that's not actually true,
The President is elected by the representatives of States via the electoral college, and the States have their own varying systems for how they choose their delegates for the electoral college.
Are they legally obliged to vote in a particular way?
Given we are leaving the EU I really don't understand why people are so exercised about who will be one of the next 4 EU Presidents. Surely that is up to the EU and their members.
My only concern about EU politicians is the current likely choice for The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy. The nominee is the former Spanish Foreign Minister Josep Borrell who is a thoroughly nasty piece of work. Which incidentally is not a description I would extend to any of the EU politicians we have been dealing with over the last few years.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Just like the office of PM then. Unless you live in Maidenhead.
No it fucking isn't. The PM is, usually, an elected MP. And the last time they weren't, the situation was rectified asap.
So. Presumably you reject the legitimacy of the entirety of the US Cabinet then?
They are appointed by a democratically elected head of the executive. Every four years voters get to choose who that person is.
They are appointed by democratically elected MEPs. Every four years voters get to choose who those people are.
Not good enough.
There are many democracies which have direct elections for the Head of Government (US/French style) There are many democracies which have direct elections for the legislature and primus inter pares one of those become Head of Government (UK/Ireland style).
How many democracies are there where the Head of Government is someone appointed after the elections from anyone anywhere and not someone who stood at the election? I can't think of any democracy anywhere that acts like that. Not even Iran.
But the EU is not a State. It is a voluntary Union of sovereign nations for mutual benefit. Is the head of the UN or NATO or ASEAN elected by the people? And, as pointed out before, the PM does not have to be an MP. Nor even a member of the H of L.
Well done to the new EU President who I had never heard of until two weeks ago on winning her election. Commiserations to the other candidates... whoever they are.
Not that it matters anyway. The EU has countless federalists it will put in, so she is no different to any of the other failed and unpopular Presidents we've had.
A federalist though, ha. How's that Remain and Reform argument working for ya?
Confession of such ignorance rather negates your jeering tone... If you don't know something, please feel free to ask a grown up.
Most democratic systems are different albeit variations on a theme. They have some posts elected, some not, some indirectly, key feature is that all have a level of democratic oversight or at least restraint. Is the US more democratic because it elects many of its judges? On the other hand somebody can become President without ever having stood for election in their life.
Personally I believe the most important feature of a democracy is not the power of an electorate to appoint their leaders in the first place (there are so many different ways of doing this that how you determine the “will of the people” on such matters is almost arbitrary). It is the power to remove those that fail. Which is traditionally why I prefer FPTP over other systems. Trouble is it breaks down when all alternatives are routinely awful. Something which has almost never been experienced in the U.K. Until now.
Whilst I do understand and agree with Mr Meeks' reasoning about intentionally calling a GE, doesn't Boris' insistence on leaving on 31st October with or without a deal make it extremely likely there will be a VoNC and a subsequent GE? I know the article says that there is 14 days for an alternative Government to be formed but given the history of conflicting Parliamentary votes over the last year and their ability to vote down all options at the same time does that not make it very likely that a VoNC results in a GE?
So, let's assume that Boris Johnson is elected Conservative leader next week.
Let us then assume that four Conservatives publicly resign the whip. Can Mrs May recommend to the Palace that Mr Johnson has the confidence of the House?
It's an incredibly contentious question. If she says "yes", then he becomes Prime Minister, and the instruments of government are his. It becomes (almost) in his power to get No Deal through by timing of the Queen's speech and the like.
If she says "no", then what? Does Boris say "yes I do", and then we have a vote of confidence in the House? Could Mrs May, while lame duck PM, request an extension to Christmas so as to allow time for an election, irrespective of what happens in a VoNC?
I suspect Mrs May could indeed request a very long extension if she were so minded. I assume it would end up in court but I don't see anything other than convention to prevent her exercising all the normal levers of power as long as she is still PM.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Err... Von der Leyen *was* elected: firstly to the Parliament of Lower Saxony and then to the Bundestag.. the idea that she is some unaccountable executive figure is simply guff. she has at least as much democratic experience as BoJo, arguably more.
I actually think one of the biggest barriers to federalism in the EU is that they'd really have to have a directly elected president. And there's a danger the people might vote for the wrong person.
Interestingly Ursula had the backing of most of the populist parties, including 5 star, PIS etc. It was our own rejectionists, the Greens, and some of the socialists that voted against.
Of course, as a secret ballot we do not know what went on in the privacy of the polling booth.
Whilst I do understand and agree with Mr Meeks' reasoning about intentionally calling a GE, doesn't Boris' insistence on leaving on 31st October with or without a deal make it extremely likely there will be a VoNC and a subsequent GE? I know the article says that there is 14 days for an alternative Government to be formed but given the history of conflicting Parliamentary votes over the last year and their ability to vote down all options at the same time does that not make it very likely that a VoNC results in a GE?
You are assuming that Johnson's No Deal Brexit on Halloween commitment is maintained once he has the leadership in the bag. I'm not at all convinced it will.
Most democratic systems are different albeit variations on a theme. They have some posts elected, some not, some indirectly, key feature is that all have a level of democratic oversight or at least restraint. Is the US more democratic because it elects many of its judges? On the other hand somebody can become President without ever having stood for election in their life.
Personally I believe the most important feature of a democracy is not the power of an electorate to appoint their leaders in the first place (there are so many different ways of doing this that how you determine the “will of the people” on such matters is almost arbitrary). It is the power to remove those that fail. Which is traditionally why I prefer FPTP over other systems. Trouble is it breaks down when all alternatives are routinely awful. Something which has almost never been experienced in the U.K. Until now.
Perhaps the closest appointment to President of the commission is the appointments to the US Supreme Court. Those appointed are chosen by the executive and confirmed by the Congress, as indeed are US Cabinet members such as Secretary of State.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Just like the office of PM then. Unless you live in Maidenhead.
No it fucking isn't. The PM is, usually, an elected MP. And the last time they weren't, the situation was rectified asap.
So. Presumably you reject the legitimacy of the entirety of the US Cabinet then?
They are appointed by a democratically elected head of the executive. Every four years voters get to choose who that person is.
They are appointed by democratically elected MEPs. Every four years voters get to choose who those people are.
Not good enough.
There are many democracies which have direct elections for the Head of Government (US/French style) There are many democracies which have direct elections for the legislature and primus inter pares one of those become Head of Government (UK/Ireland style).
How many democracies are there where the Head of Government is someone appointed after the elections from anyone anywhere and not someone who stood at the election? I can't think of any democracy anywhere that acts like that. Not even Iran.
Did anyone ever vote for Gerald Ford to be the US President? From memory he was not on the ticket in 1972.
Whilst I do understand and agree with Mr Meeks' reasoning about intentionally calling a GE, doesn't Boris' insistence on leaving on 31st October with or without a deal make it extremely likely there will be a VoNC and a subsequent GE? I know the article says that there is 14 days for an alternative Government to be formed but given the history of conflicting Parliamentary votes over the last year and their ability to vote down all options at the same time does that not make it very likely that a VoNC results in a GE?
You are assuming that Johnson's No Deal Brexit on Halloween commitment is maintained once he has the leadership in the bag. I'm not at all convinced it will.
Fair point. But that doesn't really change what I was saying. I think Alastair is right as far as a voluntary GE by Boris is concerned but the danger of an involuntary GE because he sticks to his 31st October deadline seems to me a bigger risk than Alastair's piece would suggest.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Just like the office of PM then. Unless you live in Maidenhead.
No it fucking isn't. The PM is, usually, an elected MP. And the last time they weren't, the situation was rectified asap.
So. Presumably you reject the legitimacy of the entirety of the US Cabinet then?
They are appointed by a democratically elected head of the executive. Every four years voters get to choose who that person is.
They are appointed by democratically elected MEPs. Every four years voters get to choose who those people are.
Not good enough.
There are many democracies which have direct elections for the Head of Government (US/French style) There are many democracies which have direct elections for the legislature and primus inter pares one of those become Head of Government (UK/Ireland style).
How many democracies are there where the Head of Government is someone appointed after the elections from anyone anywhere and not someone who stood at the election? I can't think of any democracy anywhere that acts like that. Not even Iran.
But the EU is not a State. It is a voluntary Union of sovereign nations for mutual benefit. Is the head of the UN or NATO or ASEAN elected by the people? And, as pointed out before, the PM does not have to be an MP. Nor even a member of the H of L.
If it's not a State then why do we elect MEPs?
Also the UN, NATO and ASEAN don't set laws that affect us, the EU does. So not the same thing at all.
The back and forth on the legitimacy of the new EU President is surely a moot point coming from citizens of this nation with a head of state elected by not one vote or a House of Lords who haven't troubled the citizenry either.
If Boris tries to go for No Deal then he likely loses a VONC forcing a general election, or if as rumoured he tries for a November Queens speech to prorogue Parliament in order to force Brexit then that also likely leads to a general election.
Plus of course the only way to get the Withdrawal Agreement passed and to move onto FTA talks with the iis following a general election producing a Tory majority.
Whilst I do understand and agree with Mr Meeks' reasoning about intentionally calling a GE, doesn't Boris' insistence on leaving on 31st October with or without a deal make it extremely likely there will be a VoNC and a subsequent GE? I know the article says that there is 14 days for an alternative Government to be formed but given the history of conflicting Parliamentary votes over the last year and their ability to vote down all options at the same time does that not make it very likely that a VoNC results in a GE?
You are assuming that Johnson's No Deal Brexit on Halloween commitment is maintained once he has the leadership in the bag. I'm not at all convinced it will.
If he extends again he risks PM Farage after the ERG vote down his Government and Boris knows that
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
There was only one name on the ballot. Doesn't sound too democratic to me.
It was a vote of confidence. What options do you want beyond yes and no?
So it wasn't an election. Glad you've acknowledged that.
It was exactly the same form of election that Boris Johnson will face in Parliament. Jesus, it’s like educating pot plants.
But Johnson was elected to Parliament in the first place. von der Leyen was not.
Err... Von der Leyen *was* elected: firstly to the Parliament of Lower Saxony and then to the Bundestag.. the idea that she is some unaccountable executive figure is simply guff. she has at least as much democratic experience as BoJo, arguably more.
Wrong country. We're talking the EU not Germany or Lower Saxony.
We've already covered this, a Councillor should not be PM.
It could also be pointed out that in the U.K. the PM is conventionally an MP so they can be held directly accountable to Parliament. They do not become an MP to be eligible for the post of PM (hence Douglas Home).
Juncker was an MEP, but renounced his seat on elevation I believe. It seems bizarre to assert that the Head of the commission must come from the ranks of MEPs (if not directly elected) if taking the post means ceasing to be one.
The back and forth on the legitimacy of the new EU President is surely a moot point coming from citizens of this nation with a head of state elected by not one vote or a House of Lords who haven't troubled the citizenry either.
The Lords you can scrap as far as I'm concerned. The monarchy I'm fine with as the plebs people seem to lap up what they do.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Just like the office of PM then. Unless you live in Maidenhead.
No it fucking isn't. The PM is, usually, an elected MP. And the last time they weren't, the situation was rectified asap.
So. Presumably you reject the legitimacy of the entirety of the US Cabinet then?
They are appointed by a democratically elected head of the executive. Every four years voters get to choose who that person is.
They are appointed by democratically elected MEPs. Every four years voters get to choose who those people are.
Not good enough.
There are many democracies which have direct elections for the Head of Government (US/French style) There are many democracies which have direct elections for the legislature and primus inter pares one of those become Head of Government (UK/Ireland style).
How many democracies are there where the Head of Government is someone appointed after the elections from anyone anywhere and not someone who stood at the election? I can't think of any democracy anywhere that acts like that. Not even Iran.
Did anyone ever vote for Gerald Ford to be the US President? From memory he was not on the ticket in 1972.
No, it was Agnew, though Ford did get 48% of the vote v Carter in 1976
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Indirect democracy. She was nominated by elected leaders and confirmed by an elected legislature.
Personally, I would like a direct election across Europe, but surely that is a trapping of a superstate opposed by yourself.
Great point . The Leavers moan about the EU superstate and then want a system which rubber stamps that . They keep digging more holes .
Whilst I do understand and agree with Mr Meeks' reasoning about intentionally calling a GE, doesn't Boris' insistence on leaving on 31st October with or without a deal make it extremely likely there will be a VoNC and a subsequent GE? I know the article says that there is 14 days for an alternative Government to be formed but given the history of conflicting Parliamentary votes over the last year and their ability to vote down all options at the same time does that not make it very likely that a VoNC results in a GE?
You are assuming that Johnson's No Deal Brexit on Halloween commitment is maintained once he has the leadership in the bag. I'm not at all convinced it will.
If he extends again he risks PM Farage after the ERG vote down his Government and Boris knows that
No he doesn’t there is no way TBP Ltd will win a general election for the reasons I went through earlier, forget your bloody opinion polls and reflect on what you’ve learned fighting real elections.
The back and forth on the legitimacy of the new EU President is surely a moot point coming from citizens of this nation with a head of state elected by not one vote or a House of Lords who haven't troubled the citizenry either.
The Lords you can scrap as far as I'm concerned. The monarchy I'm fine with as the plebs people seem to lap up what they do.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
Indeed. Not by the public. Not good enough.
Is the Queen elected by the public? Are the Lords elected by the public?
What does the 'majority of competent members' bit mean?
It isn't that common to have an election for a political position with only one candidate standing.
That could give the impression that the winner was pre selected for confirmation rather than election.
Strictly, she is not yet confirmed. She now has to assemble and propose a cabinet, which then gets final approval. In other words, MEPs get a second vote when they know what they are getting, in October.
It does rather mean that Boris' "renegotiation" is rather a fatuous fantasy. There are no negotiations possible until 1 November when all the new commissioners are in post.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Indirect democracy. She was nominated by elected leaders and confirmed by an elected legislature.
Personally, I would like a direct election across Europe, but surely that is a trapping of a superstate opposed by yourself.
Great point . The Leavers moan about the EU superstate and then want a system which rubber stamps that . They keep digging more holes .
No, I think if they are going to do it, they should do it properly. The reason it can't is because the politicians in France and Germany don't want to let it off the leash for fear of where it could lead.
I accept, as a Brexiteer, that this undermines the "there is no status quo argument" made by some leavers. Personally, I think what will force the issue eventually is the Euro. Quite how it will play out, I don't know. But I'm glad we're (hopefully) leaving.
The back and forth on the legitimacy of the new EU President is surely a moot point coming from citizens of this nation with a head of state elected by not one vote or a House of Lords who haven't troubled the citizenry either.
And a new PM chosen by a few hundred MPs of a party that only got 42% of the votes in the last General Election.
At least the Euro parliament broadly reflects its voters.
Anyway, the big story is where the election that HY so firmly promised us has gone?
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
Indeed. Not by the public. Not good enough.
Is the Queen elected by the public? Are the Lords elected by the public?
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
Indeed. Not by the public. Not good enough.
Is the Queen elected by the public? Are the Lords elected by the public?
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
Indeed. Not by the public. Not good enough.
Is the Queen elected by the public? Are the Lords elected by the public?
Given we are leaving the EU I really don't understand why people are so exercised about who will be one of the next 4 EU Presidents. Surely that is up to the EU and their members.
This is why you fail to understand the motivations of most of your fellow Leavers.
It could also be pointed out that in the U.K. the PM is conventionally an MP so they can be held directly accountable to Parliament. They do not become an MP to be eligible for the post of PM (hence Douglas Home).
Juncker was an MEP, but renounced his seat on elevation I believe. It seems bizarre to assert that the Head of the commission must come from the ranks of MEPs (if not directly elected) if taking the post means ceasing to be one.
I think it was fair to say Juncker was elected. He was put forward at the election as his parties candidate and he was elected at the election.
As well as picking Merkel ally Ursula Von Der Leyen as Commission President to replace Jean Claude-Juncker, the European Parliament elected liberal Belgian PM Charles Michel to replace Donald Tusk as EU Council President while Socialist David Sassoli is the new President of the European Parliament
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
Indeed. Not by the public. Not good enough.
Is the Queen elected by the public? Are the Lords elected by the public?
No they are unelected.
Is it wrong to say they are unelected?
So, you're a republican, then?
Yes, but even if I wasn't it would still be right to say they were unelected.
And I have more concerns with the Head of Government being unelected than the Head of State. There are other democracies with a ceremonial Head of State.
It could also be pointed out that in the U.K. the PM is conventionally an MP so they can be held directly accountable to Parliament. They do not become an MP to be eligible for the post of PM (hence Douglas Home).
Juncker was an MEP, but renounced his seat on elevation I believe. It seems bizarre to assert that the Head of the commission must come from the ranks of MEPs (if not directly elected) if taking the post means ceasing to be one.
I think it was fair to say Juncker was elected. He was put forward at the election as his parties candidate and he was elected at the election.
von der Leyen was neither.
Given what happened in Juncker's term in office, you can't blame them from scrapping that approach!
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Indirect democracy. She was nominated by elected leaders and confirmed by an elected legislature.
Personally, I would like a direct election across Europe, but surely that is a trapping of a superstate opposed by yourself.
Great point . The Leavers moan about the EU superstate and then want a system which rubber stamps that . They keep digging more holes .
No, I think if they are going to do it, they should do it properly. The reason it can't is because the politicians in France and Germany don't want to let it off the leash for fear of where it could lead.
I accept, as a Brexiteer, that this undermines the "there is no status quo argument" made by some leavers. Personally, I think what will force the issue eventually is the Euro. Quite how it will play out, I don't know. But I'm glad we're (hopefully) leaving.
I’ve never supported the Euro even though I’m an ardent EU supporter . Even the practicalities of 27 countries voting for an EU President would be very complicated.
The issue I have with the Leave argument re democracy and the EU is that’s judging it by a higher standard than what voters expect of UK democracy .
We have an unelected HOL and a monarch who if minded could interfere with politics .
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Indirect democracy. She was nominated by elected leaders and confirmed by an elected legislature.
Personally, I would like a direct election across Europe, but surely that is a trapping of a superstate opposed by yourself.
Great point . The Leavers moan about the EU superstate and then want a system which rubber stamps that . They keep digging more holes .
No, I think if they are going to do it, they should do it properly. The reason it can't is because the politicians in France and Germany don't want to let it off the leash for fear of where it could lead.
I accept, as a Brexiteer, that this undermines the "there is no status quo argument" made by some leavers. Personally, I think what will force the issue eventually is the Euro. Quite how it will play out, I don't know. But I'm glad we're (hopefully) leaving.
I’ve never supported the Euro even though I’m an ardent EU supporter . Even the practicalities of 27 countries voting for an EU President would be very complicated.
The issue I have with the Leave argument re democracy and the EU is that’s judging it by a higher standard than what voters expect of UK democracy .
We have an unelected HOL and a monarch who if minded could interfere with politics .
If the monarch started interfering with politics I think he/she would be replaced PDQ.
The back and forth on the legitimacy of the new EU President is surely a moot point coming from citizens of this nation with a head of state elected by not one vote or a House of Lords who haven't troubled the citizenry either.
And a new PM chosen by a few hundred MPs of a party that only got 42% of the votes in the last General Election.
At least the Euro parliament broadly reflects its voters.
Anyway, the big story is where the election that HY so firmly promised us has gone?
Boris is not even PM yet while we still have 6 months left of the year
As well as picking Merkel ally Ursula Von Der Leyen as Commission President to replace Jean Claude-Juncker, the European Parliament elected liberal Belgian PM Charles Michel to replace Donald Tusk as EU Council President while Socialist David Sassoli is the new President of the European Parliament
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Just like the office of PM then. Unless you live in Maidenhead.
No it fucking isn't. The PM is, usually, an elected MP. And the last time they weren't, the situation was rectified asap.
So. Presumably you reject the legitimacy of the entirety of the US Cabinet then?
They are appointed by a democratically elected head of the executive. Every four years voters get to choose who that person is.
Re the US, that's not actually true,
The President is elected by the representatives of States via the electoral college, and the States have their own varying systems for how they choose their delegates for the electoral college.
Are they legally obliged to vote in a particular way?
A lot of states have “faithless elector” laws which have been applied in varying degrees of effectiveness on occasion. BTW there is nothing in the constitution requiring the presidential electors to be themselves elected by the people, that’s just a convention that has arisen. A lot of states up to the civil war had their electors appointed by the state legislature. (Would it surprise anyone to learn that such states were principally in the South?)
Whilst I do understand and agree with Mr Meeks' reasoning about intentionally calling a GE, doesn't Boris' insistence on leaving on 31st October with or without a deal make it extremely likely there will be a VoNC and a subsequent GE? I know the article says that there is 14 days for an alternative Government to be formed but given the history of conflicting Parliamentary votes over the last year and their ability to vote down all options at the same time does that not make it very likely that a VoNC results in a GE?
You are assuming that Johnson's No Deal Brexit on Halloween commitment is maintained once he has the leadership in the bag. I'm not at all convinced it will.
If he extends again he risks PM Farage after the ERG vote down his Government and Boris knows that
No he doesn’t there is no way TBP Ltd will win a general election for the reasons I went through earlier, forget your bloody opinion polls and reflect on what you’ve learned fighting real elections.
If the Brexit Party are effectively the only Leave Party left if the Tories commit suicide by extending again the Tories could face the fate of Scottish Labour in 2015 at the hands of the SNP, only this time it would be Farage doing the slaying (plus in strong Labour Leave seats too). The Tories would be lucky to get 50 seats (and those would be mainly a few Home Counties and wealthy London Remain areas) as former Tory strongholds fell to the Brexit Party like skittles.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
As will be the Prime Minister.
Theresa May was elected by the public in the Maidenhead constituency. Boris Johnson was elected by the public in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency. Jeremy Hunt was elected by the public in the SW Surrey constituency.
von der Leyen was elected by nobody.
She was elected by MEPs today.
Again, this is not difficult stuff.
Indeed. Not by the public. Not good enough.
Is the Queen elected by the public? Are the Lords elected by the public?
Interesting if there were to be such an election.
Queen romps home with 98% support I suspect.
Lords - perhaps all current members unelected.
Good idea let’s vote and let her stand and gain the legitimacy needed by a head of state. I doubt it would be 98% more like 75% mind you as we go down the results of the gene pool...
The back and forth on the legitimacy of the new EU President is surely a moot point coming from citizens of this nation with a head of state elected by not one vote or a House of Lords who haven't troubled the citizenry either.
And a new PM chosen by a few hundred MPs of a party that only got 42% of the votes in the last General Election.
At least the Euro parliament broadly reflects its voters.
Anyway, the big story is where the election that HY so firmly promised us has gone?
Boris is not even PM yet while we still have 6 months left of the year
By the time he takes over we will have barely 5 months left - of which one will be spent in recess. The second half of December can also pretty well be ruled out , which leaves a limited window of opportunity given the length of any election campaign as stipulated by the FTPA.
So, let's assume that Boris Johnson is elected Conservative leader next week.
Let us then assume that four Conservatives publicly resign the whip. Can Mrs May recommend to the Palace that Mr Johnson has the confidence of the House?
It's an incredibly contentious question. If she says "yes", then he becomes Prime Minister, and the instruments of government are his. It becomes (almost) in his power to get No Deal through by timing of the Queen's speech and the like.
If she says "no", then what? Does Boris say "yes I do", and then we have a vote of confidence in the House? Could Mrs May, while lame duck PM, request an extension to Christmas so as to allow time for an election, irrespective of what happens in a VoNC?
In that scenario we really are in uncharted constitutional waters, and the biggest constitutional crisis since at least WWII. I don't think anyone really knows the answer, but my guess would be that Theresa May stays as PM while an election is held. It would obviously be highly contentious either way,
It would completely screw punters on the Theresa May exit date markets, and oh yes, uncharted constitutional waters, yes.
Actually I'd be back in the money on that market if this lot was to pass. Betfair has screwed us already though !
The back and forth on the legitimacy of the new EU President is surely a moot point coming from citizens of this nation with a head of state elected by not one vote or a House of Lords who haven't troubled the citizenry either.
And a new PM chosen by a few hundred MPs of a party that only got 42% of the votes in the last General Election.
At least the Euro parliament broadly reflects its voters.
Anyway, the big story is where the election that HY so firmly promised us has gone?
Boris is not even PM yet while we still have 6 months left of the year
By the time he takes over we will have barely 5 months left - of which one will be spent in recess. The second half of December can also pretty well be ruled out , which leaves a limited window of opportunity given the length of any election campaign as stipulated by the FTPA.
If there is to be a general election this year it will almost certainly be as Boris loses a VONC to try and stop No Deal with Lee, Grieve, Gyimah etc voting with the opposition, not under the FTPA.
There will then be an autumn general election for Brexit Deal or No Deal with Boris or EUref2 or revoke with Corbyn, the LDs and SNP
Why are people mentioning Her Majesty in this? The Queen doesn't exercise political decisions/power. Nor do the Lords in that they are a revising chamber.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Indirect democracy. She was nominated by elected leaders and confirmed by an elected legislature.
Personally, I would like a direct election across Europe, but surely that is a trapping of a superstate opposed by yourself.
Great point . The Leavers moan about the EU superstate and then want a system which rubber stamps that . They keep digging more holes .
No, I think if they are going to do it, they should do it properly. The reason it can't is because the politicians in France and Germany don't want to let it off the leash for fear of where it could lead.
I accept, as a Brexiteer, that this undermines the "there is no status quo argument" made by some leavers. Personally, I think what will force the issue eventually is the Euro. Quite how it will play out, I don't know. But I'm glad we're (hopefully) leaving.
I’ve never supported the Euro even though I’m an ardent EU supporter . Even the practicalities of 27 countries voting for an EU President would be very complicated.
The issue I have with the Leave argument re democracy and the EU is that’s judging it by a higher standard than what voters expect of UK democracy .
We have an unelected HOL and a monarch who if minded could interfere with politics .
If the monarch started interfering with politics I think he/she would be replaced PDQ.
If their programme was unpopular, yes. Possibly not if people liked the initial changes.
Charles II and George III both got away with highly unconstitutional behaviour because people liked them. James II and George IV could not (and arguably what James doing was perfectly legitimate).
The back and forth on the legitimacy of the new EU President is surely a moot point coming from citizens of this nation with a head of state elected by not one vote or a House of Lords who haven't troubled the citizenry either.
And a new PM chosen by a few hundred MPs of a party that only got 42% of the votes in the last General Election.
At least the Euro parliament broadly reflects its voters.
Anyway, the big story is where the election that HY so firmly promised us has gone?
Boris is not even PM yet while we still have 6 months left of the year
By the time he takes over we will have barely 5 months left - of which one will be spent in recess. The second half of December can also pretty well be ruled out , which leaves a limited window of opportunity given the length of any election campaign as stipulated by the FTPA.
If there is to be a general election this year it will almost certainly be as Boris loses a VONC to try and stop No Deal with Lee, Grieve, Gyimah etc voting with the opposition not under the FTPA.
There will then be a general election for Brexit Deal or No Deal with Boris or EUref2 or revoke with Corbyn, the LDs and SNP
Huh? Weren't you saying he was going to call one to get a parliament which will vote for his deal/not be able to prevent no deal?
The back and forth on the legitimacy of the new EU President is surely a moot point coming from citizens of this nation with a head of state elected by not one vote or a House of Lords who haven't troubled the citizenry either.
And a new PM chosen by a few hundred MPs of a party that only got 42% of the votes in the last General Election.
At least the Euro parliament broadly reflects its voters.
Anyway, the big story is where the election that HY so firmly promised us has gone?
Boris is not even PM yet while we still have 6 months left of the year
By the time he takes over we will have barely 5 months left - of which one will be spent in recess. The second half of December can also pretty well be ruled out , which leaves a limited window of opportunity given the length of any election campaign as stipulated by the FTPA.
If there is to be a general election this year it will almost certainly be as Boris loses a VONC to try and stop No Deal with Lee, Grieve, Gyimah etc voting with the opposition not under the FTPA.
There will then be a general election for Brexit Deal or No Deal with Boris or EUref2 or revoke with Corbyn, the LDs and SNP
Huh? Weren't you saying he was going to call one to get a parliament which will vote for his deal/not be able to prevent no deal?
@HYUFD is certain about everything, untill he changes his mind to a new certainty!
The back and forth on the legitimacy of the new EU President is surely a moot point coming from citizens of this nation with a head of state elected by not one vote or a House of Lords who haven't troubled the citizenry either.
And a new PM chosen by a few hundred MPs of a party that only got 42% of the votes in the last General Election.
At least the Euro parliament broadly reflects its voters.
Anyway, the big story is where the election that HY so firmly promised us has gone?
Boris is not even PM yet while we still have 6 months left of the year
By the time he takes over we will have barely 5 months left - of which one will be spent in recess. The second half of December can also pretty well be ruled out , which leaves a limited window of opportunity given the length of any election campaign as stipulated by the FTPA.
If there is to be a general election this year it will almost certainly be as Boris loses a VONC to try and stop No Deal with Lee, Grieve, Gyimah etc voting with the opposition not under the FTPA.
There will then be a general election for Brexit Deal or No Deal with Boris or EUref2 or revoke with Corbyn, the LDs and SNP
Huh? Weren't you saying he was going to call one to get a parliament which will vote for his deal/not be able to prevent no deal?
I said if he was to deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal he would likely need to win a general election.
Grieve etc are not going to wait to mid October to let Boris prorogue Parliament past October 31st for a November Queens Speech
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Indirect democracy. She was nominated by elected leaders and confirmed by an elected legislature.
Personally, I would like a direct election across Europe, but surely that is a trapping of a superstate opposed by yourself.
Great point . The Leavers moan about the EU superstate and then want a system which rubber stamps that . They keep digging more holes .
No, I think if they are going to do it, they should do it properly. The reason it can't is because the politicians in France and Germany don't want to let it off the leash for fear of where it could lead.
I accept, as a Brexiteer, that this undermines the "there is no status quo argument" made by some leavers. Personally, I think what will force the issue eventually is the Euro. Quite how it will play out, I don't know. But I'm glad we're (hopefully) leaving.
I’ve never supported the Euro even though I’m an ardent EU supporter . Even the practicalities of 27 countries voting for an EU President would be very complicated.
The issue I have with the Leave argument re democracy and the EU is that’s judging it by a higher standard than what voters expect of UK democracy .
We have an unelected HOL and a monarch who if minded could interfere with politics .
If the monarch started interfering with politics I think he/she would be replaced PDQ.
If their programme was unpopular, yes. Possibly not if people liked the initial changes.
Charles II and George III both got away with highly unconstitutional behaviour because people liked them. James II and George IV could not (and arguably what James doing was perfectly legitimate).
What happens on the day Johnson is announced winner .
Whip resignations , defections etc or it passes off without too much drama.
I expect Labour to VONC, which will be tight.
Labour is probably more likely to do so at the beginning of September - rather than next week. It occurs to me that in order to avoid No Deal on 31st October, the Tory defectors - and other opposition parties - will have to be prepared to install Corbyn in No 10 - albeit briefly - during the two week period following a VNOC having passed. Corbyn could then request a further Extension from the EU and then seek a Dissolution.
Votes? Does that mean it would be, er, inaccurate to label her “unelected”?
Unelected by the public.
I voted for her. I voted LD in the Euro elections, and the LDs voted for her, so indirectly elected. BXP voted against.
No you voted for LD. She was not on the ballot paper anywhere, this isn't like Parliament where one of the MPs duly elected gets chosen as first amongst equals, no member of the public elected her.
Indirect democracy. She was nominated by elected leaders and confirmed by an elected legislature.
Personally, I would like a direct election across Europe, but surely that is a trapping of a superstate opposed by yourself.
Great point . The Leavers moan about the EU superstate and then want a system which rubber stamps that . They keep digging more holes .
No, I think if they are going to do it, they should do it properly. The reason it can't is because the politicians in France and Germany don't want to let it off the leash for fear of where it could lead.
I accept, as a Brexiteer, that this undermines the "there is no status quo argument" made by some leavers. Personally, I think what will force the issue eventually is the Euro. Quite how it will play out, I don't know. But I'm glad we're (hopefully) leaving.
I’ve never supported the Euro even though I’m an ardent EU supporter . Even the practicalities of 27 countries voting for an EU President would be very complicated.
The issue I have with the Leave argument re democracy and the EU is that’s judging it by a higher standard than what voters expect of UK democracy .
We have an unelected HOL and a monarch who if minded could interfere with politics .
If the monarch started interfering with politics I think he/she would be replaced PDQ.
If their programme was unpopular, yes. Possibly not if people liked the initial changes.
Charles II and George III both got away with highly unconstitutional behaviour because people liked them. James II and George IV could not (and arguably what James doing was perfectly legitimate).
Time's have changed. I don't think Charles could survive interfering.
Why are people mentioning Her Majesty in this? The Queen doesn't exercise political decisions/power. Nor do the Lords in that they are a revising chamber.
They are still unelected by the Great British public.
What happens on the day Johnson is announced winner .
Whip resignations , defections etc or it passes off without too much drama.
I expect Labour to VONC, which will be tight.
Labour is probably more likely to do so at the beginning of September - rather than next week. It occurs to me that in order to avoid No Deal on 31st October, the Tory defectors - and other opposition parties - will have to be prepared to install Corbyn in No 10 - albeit briefly - during the two week period following a VNOC having passed. Corbyn could then request a further Extension from the EU and then seek a Dissolution.
I agree, that's what I've been saying. Corbyn will be the only one who can command a majority and everyone [including the likes of Chuka etc who've left Labour] would need to line up behind him.
Why are people mentioning Her Majesty in this? The Queen doesn't exercise political decisions/power. Nor do the Lords in that they are a revising chamber.
The European Commission on the other hand...
You clearly have a very sketchy appreciation of the power and roles of both the Queen and the House of Lords.
You might get away with such drivel on the comment section of the Daily Mail but this is PB.
Comments
If Parliament chose an unelected Trappist monk to become PM that would be wrong and unelected.
It's how politics works - at some point Johnson will decide he needs his own mandate but he has the 2017 GE mandate which made the Conservatives the largest party. That will keep him until 2022 at which point there will need to be a GE.
Obviously most of us do, but isn't it a bit 'wow'.
(spoiler alert to above question)
I've long thought the replacement-leader-elect (RLE) was really quite poor. If I say that about a Labour politician then in absolute standards that's below coco-the-clown (deceased), and the measure was after death.
However I have to say the the RLE has pulled up her stockings. She's starting to be ok. What'll be really interesting is when she starts to have a mind of her own. She may even become a Tory.
At current odds I think she is correctly priced. (Unlike David Milliband)
Not that it matters anyway. The EU has countless federalists it will put in, so she is no different to any of the other failed and unpopular Presidents we've had.
A federalist though, ha. How's that Remain and Reform argument working for ya?
There are many democracies which have direct elections for the Head of Government (US/French style)
There are many democracies which have direct elections for the legislature and primus inter pares one of those become Head of Government (UK/Ireland style).
How many democracies are there where the Head of Government is someone appointed after the elections from anyone anywhere and not someone who stood at the election? I can't think of any democracy anywhere that acts like that. Not even Iran.
Further, do not add apostrophes to plurals.
The President is elected by the representatives of States via the electoral college, and the States have their own varying systems for how they choose their delegates for the electoral college.
Many, if not all, of society's ills come from democracy. We'd be worse off without it, but there's very little to recommend it.
There is hope though - perhaps biblical prophecy has dropped an 's'. It may be that Mr Meeks will inherit the Earth. (Hope you're ready Alastair - fresh socks)
https://twitter.com/BrexitAlex/status/1151183970656276480
Are they legally obliged to vote in a particular way?
My only concern about EU politicians is the current likely choice for The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy. The nominee is the former Spanish Foreign Minister Josep Borrell who is a thoroughly nasty piece of work. Which incidentally is not a description I would extend to any of the EU politicians we have been dealing with over the last few years.
And, as pointed out before, the PM does not have to be an MP. Nor even a member of the H of L.
Personally I believe the most important feature of a democracy is not the power of an electorate to appoint their leaders in the first place (there are so many different ways of doing this that how you determine the “will of the people” on such matters is almost arbitrary). It is the power to remove those that fail. Which is traditionally why I prefer FPTP over other systems. Trouble is it breaks down when all alternatives are routinely awful. Something which has almost never been experienced in the U.K. Until now.
Of course, as a secret ballot we do not know what went on in the privacy of the polling booth.
That could give the impression that the winner was pre selected for confirmation rather than election.
Also the UN, NATO and ASEAN don't set laws that affect us, the EU does. So not the same thing at all.
If Boris tries to go for No Deal then he likely loses a VONC forcing a general election, or if as rumoured he tries for a November Queens speech to prorogue Parliament in order to force Brexit then that also likely leads to a general election.
Plus of course the only way to get the Withdrawal Agreement passed and to move onto FTA talks with the iis following a general election producing a Tory majority.
We've already covered this, a Councillor should not be PM.
Juncker was an MEP, but renounced his seat on elevation I believe. It seems bizarre to assert that the Head of the commission must come from the ranks of MEPs (if not directly elected) if taking the post means ceasing to be one.
https://twitter.com/SebDance/status/1151105047259992065?s=19
https://twitter.com/Benpowelluk/status/1151189524204179458
Are the Lords elected by the public?
It does rather mean that Boris' "renegotiation" is rather a fatuous fantasy. There are no negotiations possible until 1 November when all the new commissioners are in post.
I accept, as a Brexiteer, that this undermines the "there is no status quo argument" made by some leavers. Personally, I think what will force the issue eventually is the Euro. Quite how it will play out, I don't know. But I'm glad we're (hopefully) leaving.
At least the Euro parliament broadly reflects its voters.
Anyway, the big story is where the election that HY so firmly promised us has gone?
Is it wrong to say they are unelected?
Queen romps home with 98% support I suspect.
Lords - perhaps all current members unelected.
von der Leyen was neither.
https://news.sky.com/story/ursula-von-der-leyen-merkel-ally-voted-in-as-first-female-eu-commission-president-11764516
And I have more concerns with the Head of Government being unelected than the Head of State. There are other democracies with a ceremonial Head of State.
The issue I have with the Leave argument re democracy and the EU is that’s judging it by a higher standard than what voters expect of UK democracy .
We have an unelected HOL and a monarch who if minded could interfere with politics .
Voters do not like being betrayed
What happens on the day Johnson is announced winner .
Whip resignations , defections etc or it passes off without too much drama.
There will then be an autumn general election for Brexit Deal or No Deal with Boris or EUref2 or revoke with Corbyn, the LDs and SNP
The European Commission on the other hand...
Charles II and George III both got away with highly unconstitutional behaviour because people liked them. James II and George IV could not (and arguably what James doing was perfectly legitimate).
Grieve etc are not going to wait to mid October to let Boris prorogue Parliament past October 31st for a November Queens Speech
You might get away with such drivel on the comment section of the Daily Mail but this is PB.