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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The LDs and Greens can breathe a sigh of relief – LAB’s Brexit

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  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10

    Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
    That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
    No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.

    At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
    Where does Ireland fit into this curious geography?
    In my view Australia and New Zealand are even closer to England than Scotland and Ireland culturally, plus we no longer share a Head of State with Ireland unlike Australia and New Zealand

    You don’t know very much about Australia and New Zealand if you think that. You might want to ask Aussies if they feel closer to the English or the Irish, or the Kiwis about the English and the Scots. Put it this way, many may surprise you with their answers - especially those from Victoria and the South Island.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    TOPPING said:

    dixiedean said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10

    Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
    That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
    Glad someone else thinks that.
    It's not a question of thinking it it is a transparent truth. Our court languages have been Latin, French and English (and Danish?) for millennia.
    I quite agree. I felt very foreign when I went to High School in Canada at 18. In a way, language apart, I never felt in Europe.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10

    Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
    That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
    No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.

    At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
    Rubbish. We share a European culture. Walk round any art gallery or museum or library or go to the theatre. Name me an Australian playwright or artist.

    We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
    Australia is part of European culture.

    Inevitably because of the short history and small population of the country there is less cultural heritage but like it or not Kylie Minogue and Neighbours are shared culture between this country and Australia and likely more so than the equivalents from any European country.
    I love Kylie. But time matters and we have been closer for longer to Europe than we have been with Australia. Although as you say part of that country was of course European to start.
    Time matters but less so than language.

    How many people have seen an Australian TV program or heard an Australian song compared to any from Europe ?

    And for all the British people who have been to European countries I wonder what proportion have ever been outside a tourist centre where English is widely spoken - not many I would guess.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    Trump sexually assaults women, and boasts about it.
    Trump separates babies from their mothers and puts them in cages.
    Trump thinks white supremacists are fine people.
    Trump is friends with despots who send their agents to poison people on British soil.
    Trump jokes about killing journalists and takes every opportunity to attack the free press.
    Trump is tearing down the international institutions that keep us safe and allow us to prosper.
    Trump is a liar, an ignoramus, and a vain, crude boastful man baby.
    And every Leaver on this site is crawling over each other to take his side over that of a British diplomat, whose only offense was to do his job.
    Truly pathetic.

    What is pathetic is your bullshit about Leavers all supporting Trump.
    I don't think even one Leaver has actually supported Trump.
    Plato?
    I meant on this site today over the diplomat as OnlyLivingBoy claimed. Sadly that excludes Plato.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1148336402960175104

    At last, a reason to vote for Corbyn!!!! At least he wont take this idiot's phone calls.

    Trump is more popular than Corbyn with Leave voters and Tory voters in the latest Ashcroft poll

    Trump will help drive tactical voting against Tory candidates. He’s brilliant news for Corbyn.

    He will also help unite Brexit Party voters behind Boris, not many LDs are going to vote Corbyn Labour

    My guess is that the Tory love of Trump will drive a lot of 2017 Labour voters back to the party to vote against the Tories once more - just as they did in 2017.

    In safe Labour Trump hating Remain seats maybe, in Labour Leave seats which are key Tory targets voters are much more pro Trump

    Not Labour voters.

    Labour Leave voters give Trump a higher approval rating than David Cameron and May's Tory Party with Ashcroft today and Boris a significantly higher approval rating than the Tories as a whole.


    More Labour Leave voters approve of Trump than Tory Remain voters do even if not quite as many approve of Trump as Tory Leave voters.




    https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Conservative-Leadership-Survey-Results-Summary-July-2019-1.pdf

    Most Labour voters in most Labour Leave constituencies voted Remain. How many current Labour Leave voters will switch their votes to the Tories?

    A significant number of Labour voters in Labour Leave seats voted Leave, virtually all Labour voters in Labour Remain seats voted Remain but it is the former where most of the marginal Labour seats are the Tories and Brexit Party are targeting.


    10% of Labour Leave voters would switch to a Boris led Tories according to the Ashcroft poll (and 21% to the Brexit Party) far more than the 6% of Remain voting Tories who would switch to Labour under Boris.

    https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Conservative-Leadership-Survey-Results-Summary-July-2019-1.pdf
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10

    Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
    That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
    That's bollocks. We have more in common culturally with the likes of Adam Hills and Kylie Minogue than Europeans.
    If Australia and New Zealand didn't exist, would you still be such a strong Brexiteer?
    Impossible for me to honestly answer. If Australia didn't exist then I'd be a different person since growing up there affects so much of how I view the world.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1148336402960175104

    At last, a reason to vote for Corbyn!!!! At least he wont take this idiot's phone calls.

    Trump is more popular than Corbyn with Leave voters and Tory voters in the latest Ashcroft poll

    Trump will help drive tactical voting against Tory candidates. He’s brilliant news for Corbyn.

    He will also help unite Brexit Party voters behind Boris, not many LDs are going to vote Corbyn Labour

    My guess is that the Tory love of Trump will drive a lot of 2017 Labour voters back to the party to vote against the Tories once more - just as they did in 2017.

    In safe Labour Trump hating Remain seats maybe, in Labour Leave seats which are key Tory targets voters are much more pro Trump

    Not Labour voters.

    Labour Leave voters give Trump a higher approval rating than David Cameron and May's Tory Party with Ashcroft today and Boris a significantly higher approval rating than the Tories as a whole.


    More Labour Leave voters approve of Trump than Tory Remain voters do even if not quite as many approve of Trump as Tory Leave voters.




    https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Conservative-Leadership-Survey-Results-Summary-July-2019-1.pdf

    Most Labour voters in most Labour Leave constituencies voted Remain. How many current Labour Leave voters will switch their votes to the Tories?

    A significant number of Labour voters in Labour Leave seats voted Leave, virtually all Labour voters in Labour Remain seats voted Remain but it is the former where most of the marginal Labour seats are the Tories and Brexit Party are targeting.

    A reasonable number of Labour Leave voters would switch to a Boris led Tories to deliver Brexit

    A small minority of what is a small minority might do so.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Time matters but less so than language.

    How many people have seen an Australian TV program or heard an Australian song compared to any from Europe ?

    And for all the British people who have been to European countries I wonder what proportion have ever been outside a tourist centre where English is widely spoken - not many I would guess.

    More English people have been to France than have been to Northern Ireland.

    This was a massive hit in the UK. Not so much in Australia.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnopHCL1Jk8
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10

    Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
    That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
    No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.

    At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
    Where does Ireland fit into this curious geography?
    In my view Australia and New Zealand are even closer to England than Scotland and Ireland culturally, plus we no longer share a Head of State with Ireland unlike Australia and New Zealand

    You don’t know very much about Australia and New Zealand if you think that. You might want to ask Aussies if they feel closer to the English or the Irish, or the Kiwis about the English and the Scots. Put it this way, many may surprise you with their answers - especially those from Victoria and the South Island.

    Well obviously if they have Irish or Scottish ancestry they will feel closer to them than the English but 36% of Australians class themselves as of English ancestry, 33.5% as Australian, just 11% as of Irish ancestry and 9% as of Scottish ancestry according to the 2016 Australian census

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia#Ancestry_and_immigration
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Maybe we have hit on the crux of the divide here. Remainers, left or right, feel at home in France, Denmark or the Netherlands. Leavers, left or right, in Oz, Canada, NZ and US.
    It really is all about the feelz.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10

    Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
    That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
    No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.

    At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
    Rubbish. We share a European culture. Walk round any art gallery or museum or library or go to the theatre. Name me an Australian playwright or artist.

    We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
    Australia is part of European culture.

    Inevitably because of the short history and small population of the country there is less cultural heritage but like it or not Kylie Minogue and Neighbours are shared culture between this country and Australia and likely more so than the equivalents from any European country.
    I love Kylie. But time matters and we have been closer for longer to Europe than we have been with Australia. Although as you say part of that country was of course European to start.
    Time matters but less so than language.

    How many people have seen an Australian TV program or heard an Australian song compared to any from Europe ?

    And for all the British people who have been to European countries I wonder what proportion have ever been outside a tourist centre where English is widely spoken - not many I would guess.

    This sounds a lot more like 1990s Britain than Britain in 2019 - especially at the younger end of the population. I doubt any of my kids have ever watched an Australian TV programme, let alone one from NZ. And Aussie music compared to the sound of Ibiza? I doubt the former gets much of a look-in these days.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019

    Time matters but less so than language.

    How many people have seen an Australian TV program or heard an Australian song compared to any from Europe ?

    And for all the British people who have been to European countries I wonder what proportion have ever been outside a tourist centre where English is widely spoken - not many I would guess.

    More English people have been to France than have been to Northern Ireland.

    This was a massive hit in the UK. Not so much in Australia.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnopHCL1Jk8
    I have been to Palestine, it does not make me culturally identical to Palestinians.


    If a flight to Australia cost the same as a flight to Spain I suspect more Brits would choose the former
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    dixiedean said:

    Maybe we have hit on the crux of the divide here. Remainers, left or right, feel at home in France, Denmark or the Netherlands. Leavers, left or right, in Oz, Canada, NZ and US.
    It really is all about the feelz.

    Viewed from Oz, Canada, NZ and US, what distinguishes Britain within the 'Anglosphere'? Surely it's that we're European and part of the Old World. Denying our Europeanness is a kind of reverse cultural cringe.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    As an aside, the Epstein story could end up being enormous.

    Epstein made his money by being an assiduous collector of connections. If you were likely to be useful to him, he'd invite you to a party.

    A lot of people went to those parties. Epstein gained a lot of friends, who helped him make a lot of money.

    Who went to those parties could well be the biggest story of the decade. Some of the names are well known. Others are not yet.

    (For the record, I have neither met Epstein, nor been invited, nor - obviously - have I been to any parties.)
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    Time matters but less so than language.

    How many people have seen an Australian TV program or heard an Australian song compared to any from Europe ?

    And for all the British people who have been to European countries I wonder what proportion have ever been outside a tourist centre where English is widely spoken - not many I would guess.

    More English people have been to France than have been to Northern Ireland.

    This was a massive hit in the UK. Not so much in Australia.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnopHCL1Jk8
    Well according to wiki its a Moldovan pop song which reached number 3 in the UK charts in 2004.

    So that obviously means that there's greater cultural association between the UK and Moldova than the UK and Australia.

    Or perhaps not.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1148336402960175104

    At last, a reason to vote for Corbyn!!!! At least he wont take this idiot's phone calls.

    Trump is more popular than Corbyn with Leave voters and Tory voters in the latest Ashcroft poll

    Trump will help drive tactical voting against Tory candidates. He’s brilliant news for Corbyn.

    He will also help unite Brexit Party voters behind Boris, not many LDs are going to vote Corbyn Labour

    My guess is that the Tory love of Trump will drive a lot of 2017 Labour voters back to the party to vote against the Tories once more - just as they did in 2017.

    In safe Labour Trump hating Remain seats maybe, in Labour Leave seats which are key Tory targets voters are much more pro Trump

    Not Labour voters.

    Labour Leave voters give Trump a higher approval rating than David Cameron and May's Tory Party with Ashcroft today and Boris a significantly higher approval rating than the Tories as a whole.


    More Labour Leave voters approve of Trump than Tory Remain voters do even if not quite as many approve of Trump as Tory Leave voters.




    https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Conservative-Leadership-Survey-Results-Summary-July-2019-1.pdf

    Most Labour voters in most Labour Leave constituencies voted Remain. How many current Labour Leave voters will switch their votes to the Tories?

    A significant number of Labour voters in Labour Leave seats voted Leave, virtually all Labour voters in Labour Remain seats voted Remain but it is the former where most of the marginal Labour seats are the Tories and Brexit Party are targeting.

    A reasonable number of Labour Leave voters would switch to a Boris led Tories to deliver Brexit

    A small minority of what is a small minority might do so.

    Enough to tip the balance in some Labour Leave seats.

    Views of Trump depend more on whether you were a Remainer or a Leaver than whether you are Tory or Labour
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10

    Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
    That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
    No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.

    At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
    Rubbish. We share a European culture. Walk round any art gallery or museum or library or go to the theatre. Name me an Australian playwright or artist.

    We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
    Australia is part of European culture.

    Inevitably because of the short history and small population of the country there is less cultural heritage but like it or not Kylie Minogue and Neighbours are shared culture between this country and Australia and likely more so than the equivalents from any European country.
    I love Kylie. But time matters and we have been closer for longer to Europe than we have been with Australia. Although as you say part of that country was of course European to start.
    Time matters but less so than language.

    How many people have seen an Australian TV program or heard an Australian song compared to any from Europe ?

    And for all the British people who have been to European countries I wonder what proportion have ever been outside a tourist centre where English is widely spoken - not many I would guess.

    This sounds a lot more like 1990s Britain than Britain in 2019 - especially at the younger end of the population. I doubt any of my kids have ever watched an Australian TV programme, let alone one from NZ. And Aussie music compared to the sound of Ibiza? I doubt the former gets much of a look-in these days.

    Eindhoven Groove Factory?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    dixiedean said:

    Maybe we have hit on the crux of the divide here. Remainers, left or right, feel at home in France, Denmark or the Netherlands. Leavers, left or right, in Oz, Canada, NZ and US.
    It really is all about the feelz.

    I feel at home in all of them, apart from the US. For me, despite numerous visits, it is a very foreign country where everything is done differently.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited July 2019
    On topic, as a neoliberal Remainiac I think this is fine.

    They might endorse some magical wonderful thing that they negotiate - that's OK: it'll be magical and wonderful! I might like it too - for example, if "out" was the same as "in" but with an opt-out from the CAP and the loss of a national veto then I might support it: CAP is a terrible policy, and the British tend to abuse their veto.

    If Labour hadn't taken away my right to vote this would be enough to vote tactically for them in a seat where LD/Green/Cthulhu weren't in the running, despite not being a huge Corbyn fan.

    Politically it's obviously the correct position for Labour and it's political malpractice that they took so long to get here.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    dixiedean said:

    Maybe we have hit on the crux of the divide here. Remainers, left or right, feel at home in France, Denmark or the Netherlands. Leavers, left or right, in Oz, Canada, NZ and US.
    It really is all about the feelz.

    Viewed from Oz, Canada, NZ and US, what distinguishes Britain within the 'Anglosphere'? Surely it's that we're European and part of the Old World. Denying our Europeanness is a kind of reverse cultural cringe.
    We are part European, as Australia and New Zealand are part Asian and Canada is part North American but culturally we, Australia and New Zealand and Canada are closer to each other than our nearest continental neighbours and we share the same Head of State
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    HYUFD said:


    We are part European, as Australia and New Zealand are part Asian and Canada is part North American but culturally we, Australia and New Zealand and Canada are closer to each other than our nearest continental neighbours and we share the same Head of State

    WTF have you ever actually met a Canadian???
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Maybe we have hit on the crux of the divide here. Remainers, left or right, feel at home in France, Denmark or the Netherlands. Leavers, left or right, in Oz, Canada, NZ and US.
    It really is all about the feelz.

    Viewed from Oz, Canada, NZ and US, what distinguishes Britain within the 'Anglosphere'? Surely it's that we're European and part of the Old World. Denying our Europeanness is a kind of reverse cultural cringe.
    We are part European, as Australia and New Zealand are part Asian and Canada is part North American but culturally we, Australia and New Zealand and Canada are closer to each other than our nearest continental neighbours and we share the same Head of State
    We being the English, as per your previous comment about being 'closer' to Australia than Scotland?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10

    Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
    That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
    No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.

    At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
    Rubbish. We share a European culture. Walk round any art gallery or museum or library or go to the theatre. Name me an Australian playwright or artist.

    We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
    Australia is part of European culture.

    Inevitably because of the short history and small population of the country there is less cultural heritage but like it or not Kylie Minogue and Neighbours are shared culture between this country and Australia and likely more so than the equivalents from any European country.
    I love Kylie. But time matters and we have been closer for longer to Europe than we have been with Australia. Although as you say part of that country was of course European to start.
    Time matters but less so than language.

    How many people have seen an Australian TV program or heard an Australian song compared to any from Europe ?

    And for all the British people who have been to European countries I wonder what proportion have ever been outside a tourist centre where English is widely spoken - not many I would guess.

    This sounds a lot more like 1990s Britain than Britain in 2019 - especially at the younger end of the population. I doubt any of my kids have ever watched an Australian TV programme, let alone one from NZ. And Aussie music compared to the sound of Ibiza? I doubt the former gets much of a look-in these days.

    Perhaps, things can change.

    My Australian tv viewing went from Clive James via Neighbours to this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpvDYnwkOPE
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Maybe we have hit on the crux of the divide here. Remainers, left or right, feel at home in France, Denmark or the Netherlands. Leavers, left or right, in Oz, Canada, NZ and US.
    It really is all about the feelz.

    Viewed from Oz, Canada, NZ and US, what distinguishes Britain within the 'Anglosphere'? Surely it's that we're European and part of the Old World. Denying our Europeanness is a kind of reverse cultural cringe.
    We are part European, as Australia and New Zealand are part Asian and Canada is part North American but culturally we, Australia and New Zealand and Canada are closer to each other than our nearest continental neighbours and we share the same Head of State
    We being the English, as per your previous comment about being 'closer' to Australia than Scotland?
    The British but yes given the English still make up the majority of GB that also applies
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:


    We are part European, as Australia and New Zealand are part Asian and Canada is part North American but culturally we, Australia and New Zealand and Canada are closer to each other than our nearest continental neighbours and we share the same Head of State

    WTF have you ever actually met a Canadian???
    Plenty, outside of Quebecois who are obviously closer to France than the UK and the average Albertan who would probably feel closer to the USA I would say the average Canadian feels closer to the UK, Australia and New Zealand than anywhere else in the world
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,538

    HYUFD said:


    We are part European, as Australia and New Zealand are part Asian and Canada is part North American but culturally we, Australia and New Zealand and Canada are closer to each other than our nearest continental neighbours and we share the same Head of State

    WTF have you ever actually met a Canadian???
    I met a couple in Oslo once. They were not wearing coats in the middle of winter.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    We are part European, as Australia and New Zealand are part Asian and Canada is part North American but culturally we, Australia and New Zealand and Canada are closer to each other than our nearest continental neighbours and we share the same Head of State

    WTF have you ever actually met a Canadian???
    Plenty, outside of Quebecois who are obviously closer to France than the UK and the average Albertan who would probably feel closer to the USA I would say the average Canadian feels closer to the UK, Australia and New Zealand than anywhere else in the world
    I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in Regina.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    On topic, as a neoliberal Remainiac I think this is fine.

    They might endorse some magical wonderful thing that they negotiate - that's OK: it'll be magical and wonderful! I might like it too - for example, if "out" was the same as "in" but with an opt-out from the CAP and the loss of a national veto then I might support it: CAP is a terrible policy, and the British tend to abuse their veto.

    If Labour hadn't taken away my right to vote this would be enough to vote tactically for them in a seat where LD/Green/Cthulhu weren't in the running, despite not being a huge Corbyn fan.

    Politically it's obviously the correct position for Labour and it's political malpractice that they took so long to get here.

    How did they take away your right to vote?

    And yeah, the immediate reaction is a little surprising. People's Vote is all about getting a second referendum, getting Labour's support is secondary to them. Will people really hand Boris a majority by voting Lib Dem, just to spite Labour for not being pure enough?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    We are part European, as Australia and New Zealand are part Asian and Canada is part North American but culturally we, Australia and New Zealand and Canada are closer to each other than our nearest continental neighbours and we share the same Head of State

    WTF have you ever actually met a Canadian???
    Plenty, outside of Quebecois who are obviously closer to France than the UK and the average Albertan who would probably feel closer to the USA I would say the average Canadian feels closer to the UK, Australia and New Zealand than anywhere else in the world
    I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in Regina.
    Named after Queen Victoria
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10

    Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
    That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
    No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.

    At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
    Rubbish. We share a European culture. Walk round any art gallery or museum or library or go to the theatre. Name me an Australian playwright or artist.

    We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
    Australia is part of European culture.

    Inevitably because of the short history and small population of the country there is less cultural heritage but like it or not Kylie Minogue and Neighbours are shared culture between this country and Australia and likely more so than the equivalents from any European country.
    I love Kylie. But time matters and we have been closer for longer to Europe than we have been with Australia. Although as you say part of that country was of course European to start.
    Time matters but less so than language.

    How many people have seen an Australian TV program or heard an Australian song compared to any from Europe ?

    And for all the British people who have been to European countries I wonder what proportion have ever been outside a tourist centre where English is widely spoken - not many I would guess.

    This sounds a lot more like 1990s Britain than Britain in 2019 - especially at the younger end of the population. I doubt any of my kids have ever watched an Australian TV programme, let alone one from NZ. And Aussie music compared to the sound of Ibiza? I doubt the former gets much of a look-in these days.

    Neighbours still gets 2.3 million viewers a day in the UK, even on Five, more than any continental soap or drama has ever got in the UK
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    On topic, as a neoliberal Remainiac I think this is fine.

    They might endorse some magical wonderful thing that they negotiate - that's OK: it'll be magical and wonderful! I might like it too - for example, if "out" was the same as "in" but with an opt-out from the CAP and the loss of a national veto then I might support it: CAP is a terrible policy, and the British tend to abuse their veto.

    If Labour hadn't taken away my right to vote this would be enough to vote tactically for them in a seat where LD/Green/Cthulhu weren't in the running, despite not being a huge Corbyn fan.

    Politically it's obviously the correct position for Labour and it's political malpractice that they took so long to get here.

    How did they take away your right to vote?

    And yeah, the immediate reaction is a little surprising. People's Vote is all about getting a second referendum, getting Labour's support is secondary to them. Will people really hand Boris a majority by voting Lib Dem, just to spite Labour for not being pure enough?
    Probably referring to the decrease from 20 to 15 years that you can be away for and still vote. Limit was 5 in 1985, 20 in 1989 and 15 in 2000. Before 1985 there was no right.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    How did they take away your right to vote?

    They made a rule that if you've been out of Britain for 15 years you can't vote any more.

    The Tories then said they'd remove this rule, but they lied.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019

    dixiedean said:

    Maybe we have hit on the crux of the divide here. Remainers, left or right, feel at home in France, Denmark or the Netherlands. Leavers, left or right, in Oz, Canada, NZ and US.
    It really is all about the feelz.

    Viewed from Oz, Canada, NZ and US, what distinguishes Britain within the 'Anglosphere'? Surely it's that we're European and part of the Old World. Denying our Europeanness is a kind of reverse cultural cringe.
    Of course elitist metropolitan left liberals from across the Anglosphere, whether English Remainers, Scottish Nationalists, Australian and New Zealand Republicans or Quebec nationalists all hate the concept and would all rather be closer to continental Europe or Asia than anything with a ghastly connection to the British Empire but white working class and lower middle class people in all those nations still feel a common cultural affinity and respect for the Queen as their Head of State. While Meghan Markle has given the royal family a closer connection to racial minorities within those nations too
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    HYUFD said:



    Of course elitist metropolitan left liberals from across the Anglosphere, whether English Remainers, Scottish Nationalists, Australian and New Zealand Republicans or Quebec nationalists all hate the concept and would all rather be closer to continental Europe or Asia than anything with a ghastly connection to the British Empire

    It's not that, it's just that we've met Canadians. I mean don't get me wrong, lovely people but whoa
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    How did they take away your right to vote?

    They made a rule that if you've been out of Britain for 15 years you can't vote any more.

    The Tories then said they'd remove this rule, but they lied.
    You've got the Tories to thank for having voting rights in the first place. :)

    As for repealing it, Parliament's website say that the government are still looking to make progress on the bill. Expect another to appear in the next session.

    https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN05923
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    HYUFD said:



    Of course elitist metropolitan left liberals from across the Anglosphere, whether English Remainers, Scottish Nationalists, Australian and New Zealand Republicans or Quebec nationalists all hate the concept and would all rather be closer to continental Europe or Asia than anything with a ghastly connection to the British Empire

    It's not that, it's just that we've met Canadians. I mean don't get me wrong, lovely people but whoa
    What do you mean? About Canadians I mean.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    AndyJS said:

    What do you mean? About Canadians I mean.

    Just in a general sort of way
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    We are part European, as Australia and New Zealand are part Asian and Canada is part North American but culturally we, Australia and New Zealand and Canada are closer to each other than our nearest continental neighbours and we share the same Head of State

    WTF have you ever actually met a Canadian???
    Plenty, outside of Quebecois who are obviously closer to France than the UK and the average Albertan who would probably feel closer to the USA I would say the average Canadian feels closer to the UK, Australia and New Zealand than anywhere else in the world
    I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in Regina.
    Named after Queen Victoria
    That may be so, but Saskatchewan is very like Alberta, with an increasingly resources based economy that looks a lot more like the US and not a lot like Europe.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10

    Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
    That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
    No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.

    At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
    Rubbish. We share a European culture. Walk round any art gallery or museum or library or go to the theatre. Name me an Australian playwright or artist.

    We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
    Australia is part of European culture.

    Inevitably because of the short history and small population of the country there is less cultural heritage but like it or not Kylie Minogue and Neighbours are shared culture between this country and Australia and likely more so than the equivalents from any European country.
    I love Kylie. But time matters and we have been closer for longer to Europe than we have been with Australia. Although as you say part of that country was of course European to start.
    Time matters but less so than language.

    How many people have seen an Australian TV program or heard an Australian song compared to any from Europe ?

    And for all the British people who have been to European countries I wonder what proportion have ever been outside a tourist centre where English is widely spoken - not many I would guess.

    This sounds a lot more like 1990s Britain than Britain in 2019 - especially at the younger end of the population. I doubt any of my kids have ever watched an Australian TV programme, let alone one from NZ. And Aussie music compared to the sound of Ibiza? I doubt the former gets much of a look-in these days.

    Neighbours still gets 2.3 million viewers a day in the UK, even on Five, more than any continental soap or drama has ever got in the UK
    Amazingly, that's only just ahead of the Swedish language version of The Bridge, which managed 1.67m for Series 4. (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_(2011_TV_series))
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Maybe we have hit on the crux of the divide here. Remainers, left or right, feel at home in France, Denmark or the Netherlands. Leavers, left or right, in Oz, Canada, NZ and US.
    It really is all about the feelz.

    Viewed from Oz, Canada, NZ and US, what distinguishes Britain within the 'Anglosphere'? Surely it's that we're European and part of the Old World. Denying our Europeanness is a kind of reverse cultural cringe.
    Of course elitist metropolitan left liberals from across the Anglosphere, whether English Remainers, Scottish Nationalists, Australian and New Zealand Republicans or Quebec nationalists all hate the concept and would all rather be closer to continental Europe or Asia than anything with a ghastly connection to the British Empire but white working class and lower middle class people in all those nations still feel a common cultural affinity and respect for the Queen as their Head of State. While Meghan Markle has given the royal family a closer connection to racial minorities within those nations too
    I think you've managed an all time record for the number of stereotypes and generalisations in a single sentence.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited July 2019
    Happy with the decision, although not exactly surprised. We've been moving towards it for a while and even if it hadn't been said by everyone Labour seemed to be in favour of having a referendum whatever happened with Brexit before today's announcement, just makes it official.

    Edit: Also another non YouGov poll were we aren't in 4th on sub 20%, big shock...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.

    Let's hope there's actually a prosecution in this case.
    And conviction and jail time. Pour encourager les autres.....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T

    Indian family from Singapore drive almost 14,000 miles to watch the cricket world cup.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/48901042
  • It's easy to see how labour have got themselves in such a mess over Brexit.

    As sky news pmqs reminds us every week-

    MP voted Remain
    Constituency voted Leave

    Not quite sure why the fudge isn't working for them though. I'd of thought Team Corby voters would understand and still vote Team Corby.

    It's heartening though.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Hese's a blast from the past: the 1983 Labour Manifesto. Highlights are reduced defence expenditure, a lower pound, and leave the EEC.

    Weirdly, it seems Brexit is the Foot manifesto for slow learners...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh4yh95N4Jg
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Indian family from Singapore drive almost 14,000 miles to watch the cricket world cup.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/48901042

    With 14 hours on BA in the cheap seats coming up shortly I understand the attraction.....
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, the Epstein story could end up being enormous.

    Epstein made his money by being an assiduous collector of connections. If you were likely to be useful to him, he'd invite you to a party.

    A lot of people went to those parties. Epstein gained a lot of friends, who helped him make a lot of money.

    Who went to those parties could well be the biggest story of the decade. Some of the names are well known. Others are not yet.

    (For the record, I have neither met Epstein, nor been invited, nor - obviously - have I been to any parties.)

    Go thru AGC Blind Items and search for his name (you'll have to use google). Some of the people he is connected with are big
  • viewcode said:

    Hese's a blast from the past: the 1983 Labour Manifesto. Highlights are reduced defence expenditure, a lower pound, and leave the EEC.

    Weirdly, it seems Brexit is the Foot manifesto for slow learners...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh4yh95N4Jg

    Brexiteers, being mainly tory, want to increase defence expenditure.
  • It's easy to see how labour have got themselves in such a mess over Brexit.

    As sky news pmqs reminds us every week-

    MP voted Remain
    Constituency voted Leave

    Not quite sure why the fudge isn't working for them though. I'd of thought Team Corby voters would understand and still vote Team Corby.

    It's heartening though.

    The tory/lab dichotomy is interesting though-

    Con - we will respect the referendum
    Lab - we will respect the referendum (as long we're in government)

    Tories are coming across as much more the democrats - hell they even gave us 2 of the biggest referendums ever in the last decade.
  • Sex change therapy for children : progress or problem half hour on RT now.

    I've not listened - I think 7 y/o is madness.

    It's all so insidious - where will it end?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Sex change therapy for children : progress or problem half hour on RT now.

    I've not listened - I think 7 y/o is madness.

    It's all so insidious - where will it end?

    Usually it progresses to conspiracy theories about MH17 and blaming the EU for Russia invading Ukraine.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    By way of rectification we have sacked George Eaton provide here a link to a transcript of the interview and the original article so that readers can learn for themselves what Professor Scruton actually said in full.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2019/07/sir-roger-scruton
  • Sex change therapy for children : progress or problem half hour on RT now.

    I've not listened - I think 7 y/o is madness.

    It's all so insidious - where will it end?

    Usually it progresses to conspiracy theories about MH17 and blaming the EU for Russia invading Ukraine.
    Very good Mr Glenn. People rarely take on the dick chopping off point head on.
  • Sorry if this has already been posted but they just flashed it up on Sky news-

    https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/1148299406040588292

  • phrasing! lol

    btw, I thought of a good "first" but it's a bit long to type - does anyone mind if I type it out as a test?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    edited July 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, the Epstein story could end up being enormous.

    Epstein made his money by being an assiduous collector of connections. If you were likely to be useful to him, he'd invite you to a party.

    A lot of people went to those parties. Epstein gained a lot of friends, who helped him make a lot of money.

    Who went to those parties could well be the biggest story of the decade. Some of the names are well known. Others are not yet.

    (For the record, I have neither met Epstein, nor been invited, nor - obviously - have I been to any parties.)

    It could well.
    The president was an admirer:
    "I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side."
    Trump’s current Labour Secretary signed off on Epstein’s dodgy plea deal, recently judged unconstitutional.
    https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2019/07/08/what-did-jeffrey-epstein-powerful-friends-know-and-see/E7IsnB9uCsFyOOzgxMne0I/story.html
    Bill Clinton was reportedly a frequent flier on the Epstein private jet. As was one of our less salubrious royals.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Box has a decent piece on the Epstein case:
    https://www.vox.com/2018/12/3/18116351/jeffrey-epstein-indictment-arrested-trump-clinton-acosta
    Notable that Ken Starr and Alan Dershowitz represented him in securing the dodgy plea deal.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    HYUFD said:


    Most US Republicans and Trump are now more pro Brexit and pro Boris than they are pro Sinn Fein/IRA and pro Brussels and Varadkar.

    They are not our allies.

    The UK government and all parties in the UK should be working consistently against the likes of John Bolton. His worldview ends in one way only.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019

    Trump sexually assaults women, and boasts about it.
    Trump separates babies from their mothers and puts them in cages.
    Trump thinks white supremacists are fine people.
    Trump is friends with despots who send their agents to poison people on British soil.
    Trump jokes about killing journalists and takes every opportunity to attack the free press.
    Trump is tearing down the international institutions that keep us safe and allow us to prosper.
    Trump is a liar, an ignoramus, and a vain, crude boastful man baby.
    And every Leaver on this site is crawling over each other to take his side over that of a British diplomat, whose only offense was to do his job.
    Truly pathetic.

    We should be careful about saying things like "every leaver", as I don't think that's true.

    But the sentiment is bang on.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    HYUFD said:


    We are part European, as Australia and New Zealand are part Asian and Canada is part North American but culturally we, Australia and New Zealand and Canada are closer to each other than our nearest continental neighbours and we share the same Head of State

    What is with your obsession with the head of state? What difference does that make? If Australia had become a republic, would that mean that overnight we wouldn't have the same cultural proximity? If Ireland reunites, does Northern Ireland go from the same culture to a completely different culture overnight? Are we culturally closer to Spain and Luxembourg than France and Ireland because the former are monarchies?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    Trump sexually assaults women, and boasts about it.
    Trump separates babies from their mothers and puts them in cages.
    Trump thinks white supremacists are fine people.
    Trump is friends with despots who send their agents to poison people on British soil.
    Trump jokes about killing journalists and takes every opportunity to attack the free press.
    Trump is tearing down the international institutions that keep us safe and allow us to prosper.
    Trump is a liar, an ignoramus, and a vain, crude boastful man baby.
    And every Leaver on this site is crawling over each other to take his side over that of a British diplomat, whose only offense was to do his job.
    Truly pathetic.

    Happy to give this a bump.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300


    Brexiteers, being mainly tory, want to increase defence expenditure.

    It must be some other Conservative Party that has been decimating our armed forces.
This discussion has been closed.