Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
He really is an idiot. We are British, we have a wonderful language - there are a million ways you can say what he said and make it perfectly plain to the reader whilst at the same time the words are totally innocuous. What the ambassador did was give way to vituperation and indulge in passing judgement. It is amateur hour stuff. And this is one of the highest offices in the entire diplomatic service. But what do you expect when you employ a man named Kim?
What the ambassador did was his job, trusting others would do theirs. That turned out to be his mistake. Do you seriously believe other ambassadors do not use similar language?
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
Why is Darroch a fool?
Either Darroch was so ignorant he thought what he was writing couldn't be leaked ... ... or he was so ignorant as to think if leaked it wouldn't piss off our most important ally ... or he knew it could be leaked and would piss off our ally but didn't care.
None of those seem positive.
I am pretty sure that all our diplomatic staff operate under the idea that what they cable London will not be leaked. How on earth do you expect them to do their jobs?
How many diplomatic cables have been leaked to the press in, say, the last twenty years?
If post-Wikileaks the diplomatic staff operate under that assumption they are idiots.
Why don't they ask Trump? He will know whether his old pal Putin was involved.
Almost certainly not Putin this time. Hunt is using the government's favourite friendly journalist to distract attention from whoever was really involved.
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
Why is Darroch a fool?
Either Darroch was so ignorant he thought what he was writing couldn't be leaked ... ... or he was so ignorant as to think if leaked it wouldn't piss off our most important ally ... or he knew it could be leaked and would piss off our ally but didn't care.
None of those seem positive.
You also have to wonder if he thought he was passing on genuinely useful intelligence to HMG who perhaps had not noticed how dysfunctional the White House is with its current inhabitant (In fairness glass houses and stones come to mind).
Or was he just indulging himself?
Well indeed.
This has pissed off Trump because it is our Ambassador saying what we all knew to be true. But since we knew it to be true already, did he need to say it - and did he need to put it in writing?
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
Why is Darroch a fool?
Either Darroch was so ignorant he thought what he was writing couldn't be leaked ... ... or he was so ignorant as to think if leaked it wouldn't piss off our most important ally ... or he knew it could be leaked and would piss off our ally but didn't care.
None of those seem positive.
I am pretty sure that all our diplomatic staff operate under the idea that what they cable London will not be leaked. How on earth do you expect them to do their jobs?
How many diplomatic cables have been leaked to the press in, say, the last twenty years?
If post-Wikileaks the diplomatic staff operate under that assumption they are idiots.
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
He really is an idiot. We are British, we have a wonderful language - there are a million ways you can say what he said and make it perfectly plain to the reader whilst at the same time the words are totally innocuous. What the ambassador did was give way to vituperation and indulge in passing judgement. It is amateur hour stuff. And this is one of the highest offices in the entire diplomatic service. But what do you expect when you employ a man named Kim?
Crap.
If you go down this route then there is no point having any diplomatic cables at all.
Not crap at all. I'm arguing for precise and non sloppy use of English. Besides which, the verdict was singularly unhelpful. What did it tell the reader about how to approach the Trump administration, what makes Trump tick, how to get what you want from him? Nothing, because the author just threw their hands up and said 'haha, he's stoopid', in (ironically) a rather unintelligent way.
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
He really is an idiot. We are British, we have a wonderful language - there are a million ways you can say what he said and make it perfectly plain to the reader whilst at the same time the words are totally innocuous. What the ambassador did was give way to vituperation and indulge in passing judgement. It is amateur hour stuff. And this is one of the highest offices in the entire diplomatic service. But what do you expect when you employ a man named Kim?
What the ambassador did was his job, trusting others would do theirs. That turned out to be his mistake. Do you seriously believe other ambassadors do not use similar language?
As David says, unless the Ambassador is passing on useful intelligence I don't see any reason they need to do so.
Out of interest have any other ambassadors used inconvenient language about Trump (or for that matter other leaders) or do they just have fewer leaks than St Davids day ?
I'm fairly sure that the US Ambassador to the UK will have been fairly rude about Theresa May and Boris Johnson in private cables. (And I'm fairly sure that ambassasors refer to politicians and heads of state in undiplomatic language all the time.)
The correct thing for the US President to have done was to reach out to HMG in private, and let them know sotto voce that he couldn't continue to deal with an Ambassador who was known to have such views. The UK could then have quietly shuffled him off to another role; perhaps a promotion back home. And the US would have gotten what it wanted, and no feathers would have been ruffled.
Instead, the US has chosen to make a big thing of something that Ambassadors do all the time. (Albeit not splashed all over the press.)
Under these circumstances, I now really don't think we have any choice but to leave him in place under the end of his term in six months time. Simply, the UK can't be bossed around on Twitter.
Yes. Darroch is saying what most sensible and informed people think. You can be pretty sure whoever leaked his stuff wasn't aiming for a representative sample. Likely Darroch was also neutral or even positive much of the time but no-one has an agenda in being fair to the man.
I cannot be the only person to conclude something funny is going on in the Foriegn Office when prior to the UK Ambassador leak, Boris Johnson is cited as not being trusted to see information when he was FS. Then this story turns up a few days later.
This UK Ambassador leak is definetly being manipulated by a political entity but i am unsure if it is designed to help Boris now or tarnish UK/US relations in the longer term. It could be the Russians have infiltrated the FO and are trying to create further instabilty in UK foriegn policy.
On the otherhand it could be a pro-Brexit actor trying to boost Boris by tarnishing the current FS Hunt by pushing him into defence mode on the UK Ambassador situation!
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
Why is Darroch a fool?
Either Darroch was so ignorant he thought what he was writing couldn't be leaked ... ... or he was so ignorant as to think if leaked it wouldn't piss off our most important ally ... or he knew it could be leaked and would piss off our ally but didn't care.
None of those seem positive.
You also have to wonder if he thought he was passing on genuinely useful intelligence to HMG who perhaps had not noticed how dysfunctional the White House is with its current inhabitant (In fairness glass houses and stones come to mind).
Or was he just indulging himself?
Well indeed.
This has pissed off Trump because it is our Ambassador saying what we all knew to be true. But since we knew it to be true already, did he need to say it - and did he need to put it in writing?
Do when know when the cables date from? We know it now, but did we know it in May 2017?
Casually leaking information for partisan advantage in internecine Tory warfare has almost become routine. It is one thing a new PM will need to crack down on severely. Gavin Williamson ran Boris' campaign.
Out of interest have any other ambassadors used inconvenient language about Trump (or for that matter other leaders) or do they just have fewer leaks than St Davids day ?
I'm fairly sure that the US Ambassador to the UK will have been fairly rude about Theresa May and Boris Johnson in private cables. (And I'm fairly sure that ambassasors refer to politicians and heads of state in undiplomatic language all the time.)
The correct thing for the US President to have done was to reach out to HMG in private, and let them know sotto voce that he couldn't continue to deal with an Ambassador who was known to have such views. The UK could then have quietly shuffled him off to another role; perhaps a promotion back home. And the US would have gotten what it wanted, and no feathers would have been ruffled.
Instead, the US has chosen to make a big thing of something that Ambassadors do all the time. (Albeit not splashed all over the press.)
Under these circumstances, I now really don't think we have any choice but to leave him in place under the end of his term in six months time. Simply, the UK can't be bossed around on Twitter.
Yes. Darroch is saying what most sensible and informed people think. You can be pretty sure whoever leaked his stuff wasn't aiming for a representative sample. Likely Darroch was also neutral or even positive much of the time but no-one has an agenda in being fair to the man.
Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) is the 8th Labour MP to confirm she won't seek re-selection
The list so far
Geoffrey Robinson, born in 1938 Ronnie Campbell 1943 Kate Hoey 1946 Kevin Barron 1946 Stephen Pound 1948 Jim Fitzpatrick 1952 Teresa Pearce 1955 Stephen Twigg 1966
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
Why is Darroch a fool?
Either Darroch was so ignorant he thought what he was writing couldn't be leaked ... ... or he was so ignorant as to think if leaked it wouldn't piss off our most important ally ... or he knew it could be leaked and would piss off our ally but didn't care.
None of those seem positive.
You also have to wonder if he thought he was passing on genuinely useful intelligence to HMG who perhaps had not noticed how dysfunctional the White House is with its current inhabitant (In fairness glass houses and stones come to mind).
Or was he just indulging himself?
Well indeed.
This has pissed off Trump because it is our Ambassador saying what we all knew to be true. But since we knew it to be true already, did he need to say it - and did he need to put it in writing?
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
He really is an idiot. We are British, we have a wonderful language - there are a million ways you can say what he said and make it perfectly plain to the reader whilst at the same time the words are totally innocuous. What the ambassador did was give way to vituperation and indulge in passing judgement. It is amateur hour stuff. And this is one of the highest offices in the entire diplomatic service. But what do you expect when you employ a man named Kim?
Crap.
If you go down this route then there is no point having any diplomatic cables at all.
Not crap at all. I'm arguing for precise and non sloppy use of English. Besides which, the verdict was singularly unhelpful. What did it tell the reader about how to approach the Trump administration, what makes Trump tick, how to get what you want from him? Nothing, because the author just threw their hands up and said 'haha, he's stoopid', in (ironically) a rather unintelligent way.
You’ve read everything the Ambassador has sent over, have you?
On topic, I think the Labour position is now exactly right, like kinabalu. The idea that we'd try to negotiate the best possible Brexit and then campaign to defeat it is too silly for words, but offering a referendum no matter what when people can see what actually comes out is clearly sensible.
Unfortunately, I think Mike may be correct that the simplicity of the LibDem position - seen by most Remainers as in essence "stuff the referendum, let's just remain" - is a better vote-puller in these polarised times. But it does make tactical voting more palatable for non-Labour people who don't fancy Brexit. And it's the right thing to do in a divided country, which ought still to count for something. We now need to stop squabbling and campaign for it.
Out of interest have any other ambassadors used inconvenient language about Trump (or for that matter other leaders) or do they just have fewer leaks than St Davids day ?
I'm fairly sure that the US Ambassador to the UK will have been fairly rude about Theresa May and Boris Johnson in private cables. (And I'm fairly sure that ambassasors refer to politicians and heads of state in undiplomatic language all the time.)
The correct thing for the US President to have done was to reach out to HMG in private, and let them know sotto voce that he couldn't continue to deal with an Ambassador who was known to have such views. The UK could then have quietly shuffled him off to another role; perhaps a promotion back home. And the US would have gotten what it wanted, and no feathers would have been ruffled.
Instead, the US has chosen to make a big thing of something that Ambassadors do all the time. (Albeit not splashed all over the press.)
Under these circumstances, I now really don't think we have any choice but to leave him in place under the end of his term in six months time. Simply, the UK can't be bossed around on Twitter.
Yes. Darroch is saying what most sensible and informed people think. You can be pretty sure whoever leaked his stuff wasn't aiming for a representative sample. Likely Darroch was also neutral or even positive much of the time but no-one has an agenda in being fair to the man.
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
Why is Darroch a fool?
Either Darroch was so ignorant he thought what he was writing couldn't be leaked ... ... or he was so ignorant as to think if leaked it wouldn't piss off our most important ally ... or he knew it could be leaked and would piss off our ally but didn't care.
None of those seem positive.
You also have to wonder if he thought he was passing on genuinely useful intelligence to HMG who perhaps had not noticed how dysfunctional the White House is with its current inhabitant (In fairness glass houses and stones come to mind).
Or was he just indulging himself?
Well indeed.
This has pissed off Trump because it is our Ambassador saying what we all knew to be true. But since we knew it to be true already, did he need to say it - and did he need to put it in writing?
Do when know when the cables date from? We know it now, but did we know it in May 2017?
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
He really is an idiot. We are British, we have a wonderful language - there are a million ways you can say what he said and make it perfectly plain to the reader whilst at the same time the words are totally innocuous. What the ambassador did was give way to vituperation and indulge in passing judgement. It is amateur hour stuff. And this is one of the highest offices in the entire diplomatic service. But what do you expect when you employ a man named Kim?
What the ambassador did was his job, trusting others would do theirs. That turned out to be his mistake. Do you seriously believe other ambassadors do not use similar language?
It's irrelevant what other ambassadors do. Ours were once the best.
The real irony, of course, is that No Deal will actually make our relationship with the US worse, thanks to the power and reach of the Irish-American lobby.
Only with Pelosi and US Democrats and the Irish American lobby is strongest in Boston Massachusetts which is about the safest Democratic state in the Union.
Most US Republicans and Trump are now more pro Brexit and pro Boris than they are pro Sinn Fein/IRA and pro Brussels and Varadkar.
In any case even Boris has said he will avoid a hard border
At last, a reason to vote for Corbyn!!!! At least he wont take this idiot's phone calls.
Trump is more popular than Corbyn with Leave voters and Tory voters in the latest Ashcroft poll
Trump will help drive tactical voting against Tory candidates. He’s brilliant news for Corbyn.
He will also help unite Brexit Party voters behind Boris, not many LDs are going to vote Corbyn Labour
My guess is that the Tory love of Trump will drive a lot of 2017 Labour voters back to the party to vote against the Tories once more - just as they did in 2017.
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
He really is an idiot. We are British, we have a wonderful language - there are a million ways you can say what he said and make it perfectly plain to the reader whilst at the same time the words are totally innocuous. What the ambassador did was give way to vituperation and indulge in passing judgement. It is amateur hour stuff. And this is one of the highest offices in the entire diplomatic service. But what do you expect when you employ a man named Kim?
Crap.
If you go down this route then there is no point having any diplomatic cables at all.
Not crap at all. I'm arguing for precise and non sloppy use of English. Besides which, the verdict was singularly unhelpful. What did it tell the reader about how to approach the Trump administration, what makes Trump tick, how to get what you want from him? Nothing, because the author just threw their hands up and said 'haha, he's stoopid', in (ironically) a rather unintelligent way.
You’ve read everything the Ambassador has sent over, have you?
Casually leaking information for partisan advantage in internecine Tory warfare has almost become routine. It is one thing a new PM will need to crack down on severely. Gavin Williamson ran Boris' campaign.
There seems to be an addiction to posturing and scheming - it would be good to see someone disgraced and jailed.
The real irony, of course, is that No Deal will actually make our relationship with the US worse, thanks to the power and reach of the Irish-American lobby.
Only with Pelosi and US Democrats and the Irish American lobby is strongest in Boston Massachusetts which is about the safest Democratic state in the Union.
Most US Republicans and Trump are now more pro Brexit and pro Boris than they are pro Sinn Fein/IRA and pro Brussels and Varadkar
Sometimes Democrats win Federal elections you know.
The real irony, of course, is that No Deal will actually make our relationship with the US worse, thanks to the power and reach of the Irish-American lobby.
Only with Pelosi and US Democrats and the Irish American lobby is strongest in Boston Massachusetts which is about the safest Democratic state in the Union.
Most US Republicans and Trump are now more pro Brexit and pro Boris than they are pro Sinn Fein/IRA and pro Brussels and Varadkar
Sometimes Democrats win Federal elections you know.
They control the House of Representatives, the Republicans still control the Senate and White House
On a less controversial note, I'm in Nijmegen for 4 days, a very pretty town which is among the oldest in Europe - 2000 years and counting. I'd forgotten how much I like the Netherlands - like Denmark where I grew up, it's predominantly friendly, cared-for, low-key and civilised. (And left-wing - the town is known as "Havana on the Waal" for its decades of successful green-left government.)
At last, a reason to vote for Corbyn!!!! At least he wont take this idiot's phone calls.
Trump is more popular than Corbyn with Leave voters and Tory voters in the latest Ashcroft poll
Trump will help drive tactical voting against Tory candidates. He’s brilliant news for Corbyn.
He will also help unite Brexit Party voters behind Boris, not many LDs are going to vote Corbyn Labour
My guess is that the Tory love of Trump will drive a lot of 2017 Labour voters back to the party to vote against the Tories once more - just as they did in 2017.
In safe Labour Trump hating Remain seats maybe, in Labour Leave seats which are key Tory targets voters are much more pro Trump
Casually leaking information for partisan advantage in internecine Tory warfare has almost become routine. It is one thing a new PM will need to crack down on severely. Gavin Williamson ran Boris' campaign.
There seems to be an addiction to posturing and scheming - it would be good to see someone disgraced and jailed.
I agree. I also think Williamson was lucky to get away with a mere sacking. It is a concern that he is going to be a major player in the new government. Governments have a difficult enough time without this sort of nonsense.
I cannot be the only person to conclude something funny is going on in the Foriegn Office when prior to the UK Ambassador leak, Boris Johnson is cited as not being trusted to see information when he was FS. Then this story turns up a few days later.
This UK Ambassador leak is definetly being manipulated by a political entity but i am unsure if it is designed to help Boris now or tarnish UK/US relations in the longer term. It could be the Russians have infiltrated the FO and are trying to create further instabilty in UK foriegn policy.
On the otherhand it could be a pro-Brexit actor trying to boost Boris by tarnishing the current FS Hunt by pushing him into defence mode on the UK Ambassador situation!
Someone wanted Darroch out of the way now rather than wait for him to be replaced in a few months. It looks like Farage knew about the leak before it was published, but he is friendly with the journalist who wrote the article, and saw advantage in the leak whether or not he was an instigator. It also appears the government - Hunt at least - is embarrassed rather than outraged by the leak. Johnson is keeping quiet, but perhaps there's nothing to read in that
The real irony, of course, is that No Deal will actually make our relationship with the US worse, thanks to the power and reach of the Irish-American lobby.
Only with Pelosi and US Democrats and the Irish American lobby is strongest in Boston Massachusetts which is about the safest Democratic state in the Union.
Most US Republicans and Trump are now more pro Brexit and pro Boris than they are pro Sinn Fein/IRA and pro Brussels and Varadkar.
In any case even Boris has said he will avoid a hard border
Yes, we’ve dissected your total lack of knowledge about the Irish-American lobby previously. Most US Republicans don’t give a monkey’s about Johnson or Brexit. They care about being re-elected.
I cannot be the only person to conclude something funny is going on in the Foriegn Office when prior to the UK Ambassador leak, Boris Johnson is cited as not being trusted to see information when he was FS. Then this story turns up a few days later.
This UK Ambassador leak is definetly being manipulated by a political entity but i am unsure if it is designed to help Boris now or tarnish UK/US relations in the longer term. It could be the Russians have infiltrated the FO and are trying to create further instabilty in UK foriegn policy.
On the otherhand it could be a pro-Brexit actor trying to boost Boris by tarnishing the current FS Hunt by pushing him into defence mode on the UK Ambassador situation!
Or it could be the Remain faction in the civil service trying to damage US/UK relations and they were also behind the 'Corbyn is too old' leak.
Its not difficult to make up some conspiracy theory and plenty of people will.
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
He really is an idiot. We are British, we have a wonderful language - there are a million ways you can say what he said and make it perfectly plain to the reader whilst at the same time the words are totally innocuous. What the ambassador did was give way to vituperation and indulge in passing judgement. It is amateur hour stuff. And this is one of the highest offices in the entire diplomatic service. But what do you expect when you employ a man named Kim?
What the ambassador did was his job, trusting others would do theirs. That turned out to be his mistake. Do you seriously believe other ambassadors do not use similar language?
It's irrelevant what other ambassadors do. Ours were once the best.
And they always communicated very frankly with London.
The real irony, of course, is that No Deal will actually make our relationship with the US worse, thanks to the power and reach of the Irish-American lobby.
Only with Pelosi and US Democrats and the Irish American lobby is strongest in Boston Massachusetts which is about the safest Democratic state in the Union.
Most US Republicans and Trump are now more pro Brexit and pro Boris than they are pro Sinn Fein/IRA and pro Brussels and Varadkar
Sometimes Democrats win Federal elections you know.
They control the House of Representatives, the Republicans still control the Senate and White House
Yes. I know. Sometimes that changes. You know, like after elections, of which there is a big one next year. There is a possibility, opinions vary on how big that possibility is, that a Democrat might win. On average it takes 18 months to negotiate a trade deal. And more than three and a half years to get to the implementation stage. So we might (again, opinions differ on the probability) be dealing with a Democratic President and Congress at the business end of the negotiation.
On a less controversial note, I'm in Nijmegen for 4 days, a very pretty town which is among the oldest in Europe - 2000 years and counting. I'd forgotten how much I like the Netherlands - like Denmark where I grew up, it's predominantly friendly, cared-for, low-key and civilised. (And left-wing - the town is known as "Havana on the Waal" for its decades of successful green-left government.)
My daughter spent last year in Gronnigen under the Erasmus scheme. It seemed an incredibly civilised, civil and liberal place. There is a great deal to admire about the Dutch culture.
It seems to me that we need a tit-for-tat from the US. We leak what our ambassador says about their government, surely they should leak what their ambassador says about our government?
Theresa May should summon the US Ambassador. Trump’s rantings are highly offensive and unprecedented.
The Tories have two masters: Nigel Farage and Donald Trump. They will do nothing to upset either of them. It’s called taking back control.
Tragic . But many Leavers seem to love being the new 51st state. When do we start celebrating thanksgiving!
How's it any different to Europhiles loving being a state of the EU?
I see no material difference between being a state of the USA or a state of the EU.
At least the USA has the same language and a common culture.
So, you support abolition of the monarchy?
Australia, Canada and New Zealand are closer to us than the USA or Europe and both have the monarchy
Yet another victim of the spate of rogue geography teachers who must be made to atone for their crimes. Your English teacher (‘both’ is conventionally used as an adverb or predederminer to refer to two things, not three) needs to be held to account too.
I grew up in Australia. Culturally, politically, historically and in all ways that really matter Australia is patently much closer to the UK, USA and Canada than it is to say Papua New Guinea.
Geography doesn't matter. Europe is our neighbours in the same way as Mexico is America's neighbours, or Japan is China's, or PNG is Australia's. Canada, Australia and NZ . . . and to a lesser extent the USA are our family.
Its worth mentioning that our most important alliance, Five Eyes, includes no other European nation. Funny.
Our most important alliance is NATO, IMHO
NATO is comprised of hangers on who couldn't defend a sandcastle.
Five Eyes is the real business.
NATO confers public legitimacy that Five Eyes wouldn’t
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
Trump sexually assaults women, and boasts about it. Trump separates babies from their mothers and puts them in cages. Trump thinks white supremacists are fine people. Trump is friends with despots who send their agents to poison people on British soil. Trump jokes about killing journalists and takes every opportunity to attack the free press. Trump is tearing down the international institutions that keep us safe and allow us to prosper. Trump is a liar, an ignoramus, and a vain, crude boastful man baby. And every Leaver on this site is crawling over each other to take his side over that of a British diplomat, whose only offense was to do his job. Truly pathetic.
Casually leaking information for partisan advantage in internecine Tory warfare has almost become routine. It is one thing a new PM will need to crack down on severely. Gavin Williamson ran Boris' campaign.
There seems to be an addiction to posturing and scheming - it would be good to see someone disgraced and jailed.
I agree. I also think Williamson was lucky to get away with a mere sacking. It is a concern that he is going to be a major player in the new government. Governments have a difficult enough time without this sort of nonsense.
Government has turned in on itself and there is a complete leadership vacuum - its easy to forget that May is still PM.
I cannot be the only person to conclude something funny is going on in the Foriegn Office when prior to the UK Ambassador leak, Boris Johnson is cited as not being trusted to see information when he was FS. Then this story turns up a few days later.
This UK Ambassador leak is definetly being manipulated by a political entity but i am unsure if it is designed to help Boris now or tarnish UK/US relations in the longer term. It could be the Russians have infiltrated the FO and are trying to create further instabilty in UK foriegn policy.
On the otherhand it could be a pro-Brexit actor trying to boost Boris by tarnishing the current FS Hunt by pushing him into defence mode on the UK Ambassador situation!
Someone wanted Darroch out of the way now rather than wait for him to be replaced in a few months. It looks like Farage knew about the leak before it was published, but he is friendly with the journalist who wrote the article, and saw advantage in the leak whether or not he was an instigator. It also appears the government - Hunt at least - is embarrassed rather than outraged by the leak. Johnson is keeping quiet, but perhaps there's nothing to read in that
I find it intriguing why who the UK Ambassador is so important to the leaker. I wonder if it is related to the National Security Council leak? Either way the UK has a serious problem in Government communications.
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
Where does Ireland fit into this curious geography?
At last, a reason to vote for Corbyn!!!! At least he wont take this idiot's phone calls.
Trump is more popular than Corbyn with Leave voters and Tory voters in the latest Ashcroft poll
Trump will help drive tactical voting against Tory candidates. He’s brilliant news for Corbyn.
He will also help unite Brexit Party voters behind Boris, not many LDs are going to vote Corbyn Labour
My guess is that the Tory love of Trump will drive a lot of 2017 Labour voters back to the party to vote against the Tories once more - just as they did in 2017.
In safe Labour Trump hating Remain seats maybe, in Labour Leave seats which are key Tory targets voters are much more pro Trump
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
Why is Darroch a fool?
Either Darroch was so ignorant he thought what he was writing couldn't be leaked ... ... or he was so ignorant as to think if leaked it wouldn't piss off our most important ally ... or he knew it could be leaked and would piss off our ally but didn't care.
None of those seem positive.
Or he did his job of giving blunt and objective views uncontaminated by fear of what others would think
He should be able to trust that they wouldn’t be leaked
The culture of leaking that has developed over the last 3 years is corrosive
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
Rubbish. We share a European culture. Walk round any art gallery or museum or library or go to the theatre. Name me an Australian playwright or artist.
We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
The real irony, of course, is that No Deal will actually make our relationship with the US worse, thanks to the power and reach of the Irish-American lobby.
Only with Pelosi and US Democrats and the Irish American lobby is strongest in Boston Massachusetts which is about the safest Democratic state in the Union.
Most US Republicans and Trump are now more pro Brexit and pro Boris than they are pro Sinn Fein/IRA and pro Brussels and Varadkar.
In any case even Boris has said he will avoid a hard border
Yes, we’ve dissected your total lack of knowledge about the Irish-American lobby previously. Most US Republicans don’t give a monkey’s about Johnson or Brexit. They care about being re-elected.
And given barely any of them represent the most Irish American states in the North East any more, the Irish American lobby is pretty irrelevant to the GOP, indeed especially so given the largest number of US Republicans represent southern states and districts and the South does not have even 1 state in the top 20 US states by Irish American ancestry percentage. Indeed there are significantly more Southerners of English ancestry than Irish ancestry, especially around Virginia, Georgia and the Carolinas
Trump sexually assaults women, and boasts about it. Trump separates babies from their mothers and puts them in cages. Trump thinks white supremacists are fine people. Trump is friends with despots who send their agents to poison people on British soil. Trump jokes about killing journalists and takes every opportunity to attack the free press. Trump is tearing down the international institutions that keep us safe and allow us to prosper. Trump is a liar, an ignoramus, and a vain, crude boastful man baby. And every Leaver on this site is crawling over each other to take his side over that of a British diplomat, whose only offense was to do his job. Truly pathetic.
Trump sexually assaults women, and boasts about it. Trump separates babies from their mothers and puts them in cages. Trump thinks white supremacists are fine people. Trump is friends with despots who send their agents to poison people on British soil. Trump jokes about killing journalists and takes every opportunity to attack the free press. Trump is tearing down the international institutions that keep us safe and allow us to prosper. Trump is a liar, an ignoramus, and a vain, crude boastful man baby. And every Leaver on this site is crawling over each other to take his side over that of a British diplomat, whose only offense was to do his job. Truly pathetic.
Perhaps you could name every Leaver on this site and provide some evidence that every one of them is 'crawling over each other' to take Trump's side ?
Fascinating to see some PBers instinctively leap to defence of Trump over one this country’s representatives abroad.
It fascinates me that so many can claim that this is somehow related to Brexit and just ignore the fact that being in the EU right now does not help us one iota with this issue.
I think that Darroch was unwise to put such comments in his telegrams. I don't think it was sensible to assume that they would not be leaked. I don't think it was sensible not to consider that such a leak would undermine himself personally and to a modest extent the UK's relationship with the US. I don't think he was telling his bosses anything worth taking these risks for.
None of that is leaping to Trump's defence. He is an arse. A prickly, egotistical arse who could have ignored this stupidity but chose not to. But that doesn't make Darroch sensible.
It seems to me that we need a tit-for-tat from the US. We leak what our ambassador says about their government, surely they should leak what their ambassador says about our government?
The US president tweets insults about our government on a daily basis. Americans don't need leaked emails from their ambassadors.
It seems to me that we need a tit-for-tat from the US. We leak what our ambassador says about their government, surely they should leak what their ambassador says about our government?
We need to think bigger.
Lets have leaks about what every ambassador in the world thinks about the government they're appointed by and the government they're appoint to.
I cannot be the only person to conclude something funny is going on in the Foriegn Office when prior to the UK Ambassador leak, Boris Johnson is cited as not being trusted to see information when he was FS. Then this story turns up a few days later.
This UK Ambassador leak is definetly being manipulated by a political entity but i am unsure if it is designed to help Boris now or tarnish UK/US relations in the longer term. It could be the Russians have infiltrated the FO and are trying to create further instabilty in UK foriegn policy.
On the otherhand it could be a pro-Brexit actor trying to boost Boris by tarnishing the current FS Hunt by pushing him into defence mode on the UK Ambassador situation!
Or it could be the Remain faction in the civil service trying to damage US/UK relations and they were also behind the 'Corbyn is too old' leak.
Its not difficult to make up some conspiracy theory and plenty of people will.
True, I find the Boris not trusted to see information a few days ago and the timing of this suspicious to the point somebody was trying to protect him. It looks strategically planned!
But it could be someone trying your remain theory strategy. Its not good either way!
Fascinating to see some PBers instinctively leap to defence of Trump over one this country’s representatives abroad.
It fascinates me that so many can claim that this is somehow related to Brexit and just ignore the fact that being in the EU right now does not help us one iota with this issue.
I think that Darroch was unwise to put such comments in his telegrams. I don't think it was sensible to assume that they would not be leaked. I don't think it was sensible not to consider that such a leak would undermine himself personally and to a modest extent the UK's relationship with the US. I don't think he was telling his bosses anything worth taking these risks for.
None of that is leaping to Trump's defence. He is an arse. A prickly, egotistical arse who could have ignored this stupidity but chose not to. But that doesn't make Darroch sensible.
I disagree at least with part of a what you say. It should not really need saying but part of the job of our diplomats is to make clear their impressions of the politicians in the countries we send them to. If they are not absolutely and brutally honest in their assessments then they are failing in their duty. The fault here lies entirely with whoever leaked the comments, not with the diplomat who made them in the belief they would be treated as confidential by his own colleagues. If that trust in the privacy of diplomatic correspondence has gone then our whole diplomatic corps is completely hamstrung.
You do not have to agree with his comments to see this is a bad thing.
Casually leaking information for partisan advantage in internecine Tory warfare has almost become routine. It is one thing a new PM will need to crack down on severely. Gavin Williamson ran Boris' campaign.
There seems to be an addiction to posturing and scheming - it would be good to see someone disgraced and jailed.
I agree. I also think Williamson was lucky to get away with a mere sacking. It is a concern that he is going to be a major player in the new government. Governments have a difficult enough time without this sort of nonsense.
Government has turned in on itself and there is a complete leadership vacuum - its easy to forget that May is still PM.
Trump sexually assaults women, and boasts about it. Trump separates babies from their mothers and puts them in cages. Trump thinks white supremacists are fine people. Trump is friends with despots who send their agents to poison people on British soil. Trump jokes about killing journalists and takes every opportunity to attack the free press. Trump is tearing down the international institutions that keep us safe and allow us to prosper. Trump is a liar, an ignoramus, and a vain, crude boastful man baby. And every Leaver on this site is crawling over each other to take his side over that of a British diplomat, whose only offense was to do his job. Truly pathetic.
Few Leavers have been doing what you accuse them of.
Trump sexually assaults women, and boasts about it. Trump separates babies from their mothers and puts them in cages. Trump thinks white supremacists are fine people. Trump is friends with despots who send their agents to poison people on British soil. Trump jokes about killing journalists and takes every opportunity to attack the free press. Trump is tearing down the international institutions that keep us safe and allow us to prosper. Trump is a liar, an ignoramus, and a vain, crude boastful man baby. And every Leaver on this site is crawling over each other to take his side over that of a British diplomat, whose only offense was to do his job. Truly pathetic.
What is pathetic is your bullshit about Leavers all supporting Trump.
It seems to me that we need a tit-for-tat from the US. We leak what our ambassador says about their government, surely they should leak what their ambassador says about our government?
We need to think bigger.
Lets have leaks about what every ambassador in the world thinks about the government they're appointed by and the government they're appoint to.
Endless fun.
A few years ago the US eavesdropped the office of Angela Merkel! So much skulduggery goes on between allies. Trump also went public on UK intellegence about the 2017 UK terrorist attacks!
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
Glad someone else thinks that.
+1. But it's very much a personal thing - we aren't as homogenous a culture as we may like to think. Basically we aren't all very close to each other, apart from sharing a common language and familiarity with the cultural landscape.
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
Rubbish. We share a European culture. Walk round any art gallery or museum or library or go to the theatre. Name me an Australian playwright or artist.
We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
What an arrogant post, Australian playwrights Thomas Kenneally, Jack Davis, Joanna Murray-Smith to name but 3, Australian artists Bernard Smith, Sidney Nolan, Norman Lindsey, Australian Authors like Germaine Greer or Clive James and it has only been an independent country just over a century.
We have been at war with most of the countries of Europe at some point since 1066, we have never fought a war with Australia but alongside it several times as we share a common heritage and ancestry.
Just because you appreciate European culture and do not want to go to war with it again just not make you continental European
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
Why is Darroch a fool?
Either Darroch was so ignorant he thought what he was writing couldn't be leaked ... ... or he was so ignorant as to think if leaked it wouldn't piss off our most important ally ... or he knew it could be leaked and would piss off our ally but didn't care.
None of those seem positive.
Or he did his job of giving blunt and objective views uncontaminated by fear of what others would think
He should be able to trust that they wouldn’t be leaked
The culture of leaking that has developed over the last 3 years is corrosive
Tbh, Darroch is a fool, the person who leaked it should be strung up and a Bozza would have replaced Darroch either way.
Why is Darroch a fool?
Either Darroch was so ignorant he thought what he was writing couldn't be leaked ... ... or he was so ignorant as to think if leaked it wouldn't piss off our most important ally ... or he knew it could be leaked and would piss off our ally but didn't care.
None of those seem positive.
Or he did his job of giving blunt and objective views uncontaminated by fear of what others would think
He should be able to trust that they wouldn’t be leaked
The culture of leaking that has developed over the last 3 years is corrosive
I don't disagree except that leaking has been going around for much, much longer than 3 years.
Trump sexually assaults women, and boasts about it. Trump separates babies from their mothers and puts them in cages. Trump thinks white supremacists are fine people. Trump is friends with despots who send their agents to poison people on British soil. Trump jokes about killing journalists and takes every opportunity to attack the free press. Trump is tearing down the international institutions that keep us safe and allow us to prosper. Trump is a liar, an ignoramus, and a vain, crude boastful man baby. And every Leaver on this site is crawling over each other to take his side over that of a British diplomat, whose only offense was to do his job. Truly pathetic.
What is pathetic is your bullshit about Leavers all supporting Trump.
I don't think even one Leaver has actually supported Trump.
Fascinating to see some PBers instinctively leap to defence of Trump over one this country’s representatives abroad.
It fascinates me that so many can claim that this is somehow related to Brexit and just ignore the fact that being in the EU right now does not help us one iota with this issue.
I think that Darroch was unwise to put such comments in his telegrams. I don't think it was sensible to assume that they would not be leaked. I don't think it was sensible not to consider that such a leak would undermine himself personally and to a modest extent the UK's relationship with the US. I don't think he was telling his bosses anything worth taking these risks for.
None of that is leaping to Trump's defence. He is an arse. A prickly, egotistical arse who could have ignored this stupidity but chose not to. But that doesn't make Darroch sensible.
I disagree at least with part of a what you say. It should not really need saying but part of the job of our diplomats is to make clear their impressions of the politicians in the countries we send them to. If they are not absolutely and brutally honest in their assessments then they are failing in their duty. The fault here lies entirely with whoever leaked the comments, not with the diplomat who made them in the belief they would be treated as confidential by his own colleagues. If that trust in the privacy of diplomatic correspondence has gone then our whole diplomatic corps is completely hamstrung.
You do not have to agree with his comments to see this is a bad thing.
I don't disagree with your point at all and have said so in response to others. If this current leaking continues we will have no effective government at all. But diplomats are supposed to live in the real world, not some ideal. And we all know that Trump is contemptible. I disagree with @Theonlylivingboy's conclusion and see no evidence for it. I don't disagree with his list of Trump's deficiencies. They are self evident.
At last, a reason to vote for Corbyn!!!! At least he wont take this idiot's phone calls.
Trump is more popular than Corbyn with Leave voters and Tory voters in the latest Ashcroft poll
Trump will help drive tactical voting against Tory candidates. He’s brilliant news for Corbyn.
He will also help unite Brexit Party voters behind Boris, not many LDs are going to vote Corbyn Labour
My guess is that the Tory love of Trump will drive a lot of 2017 Labour voters back to the party to vote against the Tories once more - just as they did in 2017.
In safe Labour Trump hating Remain seats maybe, in Labour Leave seats which are key Tory targets voters are much more pro Trump
Not Labour voters.
Labour Leave voters give Trump a higher approval rating than David Cameron and May's Tory Party with Ashcroft today and Boris a significantly higher approval rating than the Tories as a whole.
More Labour Leave voters approve of Trump than Tory Remain voters do even if not quite as many approve of Trump as Tory Leave voters.
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
Rubbish. We share a European culture. Walk round any art gallery or museum or library or go to the theatre. Name me an Australian playwright or artist.
We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
What an arrogant post, Australian playwrights Thomas Kenneally, Jack Davis, Joanna Murray-Smith to name but 3, Australian artists Bernard Smith, Sidney Nolan, Norman Lindsey, Australian Authors like Germaine Greer or Clive James and it has only been an independent country just over a century.
We have been at war with most of the countries of Europe at some point since 1066, we have never fought a war with Australia but alongside it several times as we share a common heritage and ancestry.
Just because you appreciate European culture and do not want to go to war with it again just not make you continental European
LOL took you a while to Google that lot.
Yes they have great artists but they are not well known over here as you, Mr usually reply to posts instantly but not this time it seems, have clearly proved.
Trump sexually assaults women, and boasts about it. Trump separates babies from their mothers and puts them in cages. Trump thinks white supremacists are fine people. Trump is friends with despots who send their agents to poison people on British soil. Trump jokes about killing journalists and takes every opportunity to attack the free press. Trump is tearing down the international institutions that keep us safe and allow us to prosper. Trump is a liar, an ignoramus, and a vain, crude boastful man baby. And every Leaver on this site is crawling over each other to take his side over that of a British diplomat, whose only offense was to do his job. Truly pathetic.
What is pathetic is your bullshit about Leavers all supporting Trump.
I don't think even one Leaver has actually supported Trump.
I know this is like 'fish complaining that the sea is wet', but I really do think that the Mail publishing the leak was utterly irresponsible. They should have gone to the police with it, not published it. There was no public interest defence here.
The real irony, of course, is that No Deal will actually make our relationship with the US worse, thanks to the power and reach of the Irish-American lobby.
Only with Pelosi and US Democrats and the Irish American lobby is strongest in Boston Massachusetts which is about the safest Democratic state in the Union.
Most US Republicans and Trump are now more pro Brexit and pro Boris than they are pro Sinn Fein/IRA and pro Brussels and Varadkar.
In any case even Boris has said he will avoid a hard border
Yes, we’ve dissected your total lack of knowledge about the Irish-American lobby previously. Most US Republicans don’t give a monkey’s about Johnson or Brexit. They care about being re-elected.
And given barely any of them represent the most Irish American states in the North East any more, the Irish American lobby is pretty irrelevant to the GOP, indeed especially so given the largest number of US Republicans represent southern states and districts and the South does not have even 1 state in the top 20 US states by Irish American ancestry percentage. Indeed there are significantly more Southerners of English ancestry than Irish ancestry, especially around Virginia, Georgia and the Carolinas
10%+ Irish-American populations in just about every US swing state - the ones that decide who gets the presidency and the senate. If you think Boris Johnson and Brexit are more important to US politicians than their constituents I’m afraid we’ll just have to disagree.
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
Rubbish. We share a European culture. Walk round any art gallery or museum or library or go to the theatre. Name me an Australian playwright or artist.
We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
Australia is part of European culture.
Inevitably because of the short history and small population of the country there is less cultural heritage but like it or not Kylie Minogue and Neighbours are shared culture between this country and Australia and likely more so than the equivalents from any European country.
Fascinating to see some PBers instinctively leap to defence of Trump over one this country’s representatives abroad.
It fascinates me that so many can claim that this is somehow related to Brexit and just ignore the fact that being in the EU right now does not help us one iota with this issue.
I think that Darroch was unwise to put such comments in his telegrams. I don't think it was sensible to assume that they would not be leaked. I don't think it was sensible not to consider that such a leak would undermine himself personally and to a modest extent the UK's relationship with the US. I don't think he was telling his bosses anything worth taking these risks for.
None of that is leaping to Trump's defence. He is an arse. A prickly, egotistical arse who could have ignored this stupidity but chose not to. But that doesn't make Darroch sensible.
I disagree at least with part of a what you say. It should not really need saying but part of the job of our diplomats is to make clear their impressions of the politicians in the countries we send them to. If they are not absolutely and brutally honest in their assessments then they are failing in their duty. The fault here lies entirely with whoever leaked the comments, not with the diplomat who made them in the belief they would be treated as confidential by his own colleagues. If that trust in the privacy of diplomatic correspondence has gone then our whole diplomatic corps is completely hamstrung.
You do not have to agree with his comments to see this is a bad thing.
I don't disagree with your point at all and have said so in response to others. If this current leaking continues we will have no effective government at all. But diplomats are supposed to live in the real world, not some ideal. And we all know that Trump is contemptible. I disagree with @Theonlylivingboy's conclusion and see no evidence for it. I don't disagree with his list of Trump's deficiencies. They are self evident.
All I would say is that it seems there is at least some mild rebuke to Darroch in your post and I think that is entirely unjustified. He gave an honest and forthright assessment of the current US administration - and one that, if at all accurate it is vital our Government is aware of. I really don't see what else he could have or should have done.
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
We speak English and our favoured summer sport is Cricket. That is where the cultural similarities end. Our main winter sport is shared primarily with Europe. While there are plenty of fine Australian actors our theatre tradition is far closer to Europe (especially Ireland) than Aus/NZ or even Canada. Our literature is based on European antecedents - why we so many Shakespeare plays set in Europe? Because that’s where much of his source material was from. We are European, not Australasian.
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
Rubbish. We share a European culture. Walk round any art gallery or museum or library or go to the theatre. Name me an Australian playwright or artist.
We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
Australia is part of European culture.
Inevitably because of the short history and small population of the country there is less cultural heritage but like it or not Kylie Minogue and Neighbours are shared culture between this country and Australia and likely more so than the equivalents from any European country.
I love Kylie. But time matters and we have been closer for longer to Europe than we have been with Australia. Although as you say part of that country was of course European to start.
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
Where does Ireland fit into this curious geography?
In my view Australia and New Zealand are even closer to England than Scotland and Ireland culturally, plus we no longer share a Head of State with Ireland unlike Australia and New Zealand
I know this is like 'fish complaining that the sea is wet', but I really do think that the Mail publishing the leak was utterly irresponsible. They should have gone to the police with it, not published it. There was no public interest defence here.
I cannot be the only person to conclude something funny is going on in the Foriegn Office when prior to the UK Ambassador leak, Boris Johnson is cited as not being trusted to see information when he was FS. Then this story turns up a few days later.
This UK Ambassador leak is definetly being manipulated by a political entity but i am unsure if it is designed to help Boris now or tarnish UK/US relations in the longer term. It could be the Russians have infiltrated the FO and are trying to create further instabilty in UK foriegn policy.
On the otherhand it could be a pro-Brexit actor trying to boost Boris by tarnishing the current FS Hunt by pushing him into defence mode on the UK Ambassador situation!
Or it could be the Remain faction in the civil service trying to damage US/UK relations and they were also behind the 'Corbyn is too old' leak.
Its not difficult to make up some conspiracy theory and plenty of people will.
True, I find the Boris not trusted to see information a few days ago and the timing of this suspicious to the point somebody was trying to protect him. It looks strategically planned!
But it could be someone trying your remain theory strategy. Its not good either way!
I'd like to see some people disgraced and jailed and not just over this but in other leak stories, the Corbyn one for example.
There's too many people playing their own games rather than doing the jobs they're meant to.
I cannot be the only person to conclude something funny is going on in the Foriegn Office when prior to the UK Ambassador leak, Boris Johnson is cited as not being trusted to see information when he was FS. Then this story turns up a few days later.
This UK Ambassador leak is definetly being manipulated by a political entity but i am unsure if it is designed to help Boris now or tarnish UK/US relations in the longer term. It could be the Russians have infiltrated the FO and are trying to create further instabilty in UK foriegn policy.
On the otherhand it could be a pro-Brexit actor trying to boost Boris by tarnishing the current FS Hunt by pushing him into defence mode on the UK Ambassador situation!
Or it could be the Remain faction in the civil service trying to damage US/UK relations and they were also behind the 'Corbyn is too old' leak.
Its not difficult to make up some conspiracy theory and plenty of people will.
True, I find the Boris not trusted to see information a few days ago and the timing of this suspicious to the point somebody was trying to protect him. It looks strategically planned!
But it could be someone trying your remain theory strategy. Its not good either way!
I'd like to see some people disgraced and jailed and not just over this but in other leak stories, the Corbyn one for example.
There's too many people playing their own games rather than doing the jobs they're meant to.
The difficulty is that, as we saw with Damian Green, some leaks are justified on the grounds of public interest, and who's to say where the line is.
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
We speak English and our favoured summer sport is Cricket. That is where the cultural similarities end. Our main winter sport is shared primarily with Europe. While there are plenty of fine Australian actors our theatre tradition is far closer to Europe (especially Ireland) than Aus/NZ or even Canada. Our literature is based on European antecedents - why we so many Shakespeare plays set in Europe? Because that’s where much of his source material was from. We are European, not Australasian.
Ummm. Also, Australia hadn't been discovered when Shakespeare wrote his plays.
I cannot be the only person to conclude something funny is going on in the Foriegn Office when prior to the UK Ambassador leak, Boris Johnson is cited as not being trusted to see information when he was FS. Then this story turns up a few days later.
This UK Ambassador leak is definetly being manipulated by a political entity but i am unsure if it is designed to help Boris now or tarnish UK/US relations in the longer term. It could be the Russians have infiltrated the FO and are trying to create further instabilty in UK foriegn policy.
On the otherhand it could be a pro-Brexit actor trying to boost Boris by tarnishing the current FS Hunt by pushing him into defence mode on the UK Ambassador situation!
Or it could be the Remain faction in the civil service trying to damage US/UK relations and they were also behind the 'Corbyn is too old' leak.
Its not difficult to make up some conspiracy theory and plenty of people will.
True, I find the Boris not trusted to see information a few days ago and the timing of this suspicious to the point somebody was trying to protect him. It looks strategically planned!
But it could be someone trying your remain theory strategy. Its not good either way!
I'd like to see some people disgraced and jailed and not just over this but in other leak stories, the Corbyn one for example.
There's too many people playing their own games rather than doing the jobs they're meant to.
The difficulty is that, as we saw with Damian Green, some leaks are justified on the grounds of public interest, and who's to say where the line is.
I cannot be the only person to conclude something funny is going on in the Foriegn Office when prior to the UK Ambassador leak, Boris Johnson is cited as not being trusted to see information when he was FS. Then this story turns up a few days later.
This UK Ambassador leak is definetly being manipulated by a political entity but i am unsure if it is designed to help Boris now or tarnish UK/US relations in the longer term. It could be the Russians have infiltrated the FO and are trying to create further instabilty in UK foriegn policy.
On the otherhand it could be a pro-Brexit actor trying to boost Boris by tarnishing the current FS Hunt by pushing him into defence mode on the UK Ambassador situation!
Or it could be the Remain faction in the civil service trying to damage US/UK relations and they were also behind the 'Corbyn is too old' leak.
Its not difficult to make up some conspiracy theory and plenty of people will.
True, I find the Boris not trusted to see information a few days ago and the timing of this suspicious to the point somebody was trying to protect him. It looks strategically planned!
But it could be someone trying your remain theory strategy. Its not good either way!
I'd like to see some people disgraced and jailed and not just over this but in other leak stories, the Corbyn one for example.
There's too many people playing their own games rather than doing the jobs they're meant to.
The difficulty is that, as we saw with Damian Green, some leaks are justified on the grounds of public interest, and who's to say where the line is.
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
We speak English and our favoured summer sport is Cricket. That is where the cultural similarities end. Our main winter sport is shared primarily with Europe. While there are plenty of fine Australian actors our theatre tradition is far closer to Europe (especially Ireland) than Aus/NZ or even Canada. Our literature is based on European antecedents - why we so many Shakespeare plays set in Europe? Because that’s where much of his source material was from. We are European, not Australasian.
Kind of a weird comment given Australia had not even been discovered when Shakespeare was writing. As another_richard just posted, Australia and the US are part of European Culture. Having worked in a majority of European countries and lived in a handful I can very clearly say my mindset and cultural affinities are closer to Australia and the US than to any of the continental European countries. That doesn't mean I don't love their cultures as well. It is just a case of where I feel more comfortable living.
The real irony, of course, is that No Deal will actually make our relationship with the US worse, thanks to the power and reach of the Irish-American lobby.
Only with Pelosi and US Democrats and the Irish American lobby is strongest in Boston Massachusetts which is about the safest Democratic state in the Union.
Most US Republicans and Trump are now more pro Brexit and pro Boris than they are pro Sinn Fein/IRA and pro Brussels and Varadkar.
In any case even Boris has said he will avoid a hard border
Yes, we’ve dissected your total lack of knowledge about the Irish-American lobby previously. Most US Republicans don’t give a monkey’s about Johnson or Brexit. They care about being re-elected.
And given barely any of them represent the most Irish American states in the North East any more, the Irish American lobby is pretty irrelevant to the GOP, indeed especially so given the largest number of US Republicans represent southern states and districts and the South does not have even 1 state in the top 20 US states by Irish American ancestry percentage. Indeed there are significantly more Southerners of English ancestry than Irish ancestry, especially around Virginia, Georgia and the Carolinas
10%+ Irish-American populations in just about every US swing state - the ones that decide who gets the presidency and the senate. If you think Boris Johnson and Brexit are more important to US politicians than their constituents I’m afraid we’ll just have to disagree.
The white Catholic vote still votes more Democrat than Republican than the white Protestant vote even in the swing states. Plus even Boris has said he would avoid a hard border in Ireland anyway
At last, a reason to vote for Corbyn!!!! At least he wont take this idiot's phone calls.
Trump is more popular than Corbyn with Leave voters and Tory voters in the latest Ashcroft poll
Trump will help drive tactical voting against Tory candidates. He’s brilliant news for Corbyn.
He will also help unite Brexit Party voters behind Boris, not many LDs are going to vote Corbyn Labour
My guess is that the Tory love of Trump will drive a lot of 2017 Labour voters back to the party to vote against the Tories once more - just as they did in 2017.
In safe Labour Trump hating Remain seats maybe, in Labour Leave seats which are key Tory targets voters are much more pro Trump
Not Labour voters.
Labour Leave voters give Trump a higher approval rating than David Cameron and May's Tory Party with Ashcroft today and Boris a significantly higher approval rating than the Tories as a whole.
More Labour Leave voters approve of Trump than Tory Remain voters do even if not quite as many approve of Trump as Tory Leave voters.
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
We speak English and our favoured summer sport is Cricket. That is where the cultural similarities end. Our main winter sport is shared primarily with Europe. While there are plenty of fine Australian actors our theatre tradition is far closer to Europe (especially Ireland) than Aus/NZ or even Canada. Our literature is based on European antecedents - why we so many Shakespeare plays set in Europe? Because that’s where much of his source material was from. We are European, not Australasian.
Australia plays soccer too now and competes in the world cup.
Far more Brits watch Neighbours even now than will watch a live play even once a year.
Most Australians are of British ancestry still today and speak English as their first language, most continental Europeans are not and do not
Deleted - I got very very angry with @Philip_Thompson and have counted to 10
Culturally we are far closer to Australia than continental Europe, politically too we still share the same Head of State
That’s bollocks we are much closer culturally to the Europeans than the Aussies. Or the Americans.
No we aren't, the most favoured destination for UK emigration remains Australia by far for a reason, the same language, culture, the same Head of State, even the same soaps.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
We speak English and our favoured summer sport is Cricket. That is where the cultural similarities end. Our main winter sport is shared primarily with Europe. While there are plenty of fine Australian actors our theatre tradition is far closer to Europe (especially Ireland) than Aus/NZ or even Canada. Our literature is based on European antecedents - why we so many Shakespeare plays set in Europe? Because that’s where much of his source material was from. We are European, not Australasian.
Kind of a weird comment given Australia had not even been discovered when Shakespeare was writing. As another_richard just posted, Australia and the US are part of European Culture. Having worked in a majority of European countries and lived in a handful I can very clearly say my mindset and cultural affinities are closer to Australia and the US than to any of the continental European countries. That doesn't mean I don't love their cultures as well. It is just a case of where I feel more comfortable living.
I think that the Aborigines might have "discovered" it. But yes.
Comments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_diplomatic_cables_leak
This has pissed off Trump because it is our Ambassador saying what we all knew to be true. But since we knew it to be true already, did he need to say it - and did he need to put it in writing?
This UK Ambassador leak is definetly being manipulated by a political entity but i am unsure if it is designed to help Boris now or tarnish UK/US relations in the longer term. It could be the Russians have infiltrated the FO and are trying to create further instabilty in UK foriegn policy.
On the otherhand it could be a pro-Brexit actor trying to boost Boris by tarnishing the current FS Hunt by pushing him into defence mode on the UK Ambassador situation!
Gavin Williamson ran Boris' campaign.
Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) is the 8th Labour MP to confirm she won't seek re-selection
The list so far
Geoffrey Robinson, born in 1938
Ronnie Campbell 1943
Kate Hoey 1946
Kevin Barron 1946
Stephen Pound 1948
Jim Fitzpatrick 1952
Teresa Pearce 1955
Stephen Twigg 1966
Unfortunately, I think Mike may be correct that the simplicity of the LibDem position - seen by most Remainers as in essence "stuff the referendum, let's just remain" - is a better vote-puller in these polarised times. But it does make tactical voting more palatable for non-Labour people who don't fancy Brexit. And it's the right thing to do in a divided country, which ought still to count for something. We now need to stop squabbling and campaign for it.
Most US Republicans and Trump are now more pro Brexit and pro Boris than they are pro Sinn Fein/IRA and pro Brussels and Varadkar.
In any case even Boris has said he will avoid a hard border
Chilly weather tomorrow at Old Trafford might suit the Kiwis more than India at the first cricket world cup semi-final.
Its not difficult to make up some conspiracy theory and plenty of people will.
At most you could say we are equidistant between the USA and Europeans, we are far closer to Australians and New Zealanders than both
Trump separates babies from their mothers and puts them in cages.
Trump thinks white supremacists are fine people.
Trump is friends with despots who send their agents to poison people on British soil.
Trump jokes about killing journalists and takes every opportunity to attack the free press.
Trump is tearing down the international institutions that keep us safe and allow us to prosper.
Trump is a liar, an ignoramus, and a vain, crude boastful man baby.
And every Leaver on this site is crawling over each other to take his side over that of a British diplomat, whose only offense was to do his job.
Truly pathetic.
He should be able to trust that they wouldn’t be leaked
The culture of leaking that has developed over the last 3 years is corrosive
We have been intertwined with Europe since centuries before 1066 and intimately thereafter.
And given barely any of them represent the most Irish American states in the North East any more, the Irish American lobby is pretty irrelevant to the GOP, indeed especially so given the largest number of US Republicans represent southern states and districts and the South does not have even 1 state in the top 20 US states by Irish American ancestry percentage. Indeed there are significantly more Southerners of English ancestry than Irish ancestry, especially around Virginia, Georgia and the Carolinas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Americans
I think that Darroch was unwise to put such comments in his telegrams. I don't think it was sensible to assume that they would not be leaked. I don't think it was sensible not to consider that such a leak would undermine himself personally and to a modest extent the UK's relationship with the US. I don't think he was telling his bosses anything worth taking these risks for.
None of that is leaping to Trump's defence. He is an arse. A prickly, egotistical arse who could have ignored this stupidity but chose not to. But that doesn't make Darroch sensible.
Lets have leaks about what every ambassador in the world thinks about the government they're appointed by and the government they're appoint to.
Endless fun.
But it could be someone trying your remain theory strategy. Its not good either way!
You do not have to agree with his comments to see this is a bad thing.
We have been at war with most of the countries of Europe at some point since 1066, we have never fought a war with Australia but alongside it several times as we share a common heritage and ancestry.
Just because you appreciate European culture and do not want to go to war with it again just not make you continental European
More Labour Leave voters approve of Trump than Tory Remain voters do even if not quite as many approve of Trump as Tory Leave voters.
https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Conservative-Leadership-Survey-Results-Summary-July-2019-1.pdf
Yes they have great artists but they are not well known over here as you, Mr usually reply to posts instantly but not this time it seems, have clearly proved.
Inevitably because of the short history and small population of the country there is less cultural heritage but like it or not Kylie Minogue and Neighbours are shared culture between this country and Australia and likely more so than the equivalents from any European country.
There's too many people playing their own games rather than doing the jobs they're meant to.
Far more Brits watch Neighbours even now than will watch a live play even once a year.
Most Australians are of British ancestry still today and speak English as their first language, most continental Europeans are not and do not
Bon nuit, as they say in Noosa.