Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And more than 10% of the population are convinced that the EU is a hostile power against which they need to fight for their freedom.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Surely adjective? Or adverb?
Clean is surely an adjective?
All of those examples are adjectives, not adverbs.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
Corbyn campaigned more than any other Labour MP, grow up and blame your own side rather than others for failing to stop you.
In fairness to Corbyn, I've never thought he owed any obligation to anyone to campaign hard for Remain. Labour members cannot have been unaware of his voting record when they elected him.
You could argue there is some responsibility as party leader to campaign for the parties position, which he more than fulfilled. It is telling that those who criticise Corbyn for this don't criticise the Labour MPs who did less than him for remain, which is every other Labour MP*
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And more than 10% of the population are convinced that the EU is a hostile power against which they need to fight for their freedom.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
More than 10% of the population are committed Leavers. Remaining is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months
Now what?
Playing a constructive role in European integration is a viable national strategy for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. A British nationalism that seeks to disconnect us from the rest of Europe is not. However long it takes to get resolved, there can only be one ending.
Yes - rejection of an EU superstate and therefore we must leave now.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Surely adjective? Or adverb?
Clean is surely an adjective?
Yes, these are adjectives. Ones with spin, but adjectives.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And more than 10% of the population are convinced that the EU is a hostile power against which they need to fight for their freedom.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
Corbyn campaigned more than any other Labour MP, grow up and blame your own side rather than others for failing to stop you.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
Corbyn campaigned more than any other Labour MP, grow up and blame your own side rather than others for failing to stop you.
I would remind you I voted remain and accept we need to leave but in a sensible way.
Corbyn's inability to back a referendum puts labour in the dock as well and you can protest as much as you like but labour are complicit in this chaos
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And more than 10% of the population are convinced that the EU is a hostile power against which they need to fight for their freedom.
So how do we resolve this?
Defeat them.
Should I start small-arms training?
William probably thinks EU peacekeepers would be a great idea.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And more than 10% of the population are convinced that the EU is a hostile power against which they need to fight for their freedom.
I suppose it’s possible Steve Bannon is confusing Boris with Jacob Rees-Mogg, who beat a path to his door a year or so back as I recall. Both Latin-spouting comedy Englishmen with odd geopolitical ideas. Easy to get mixed up? Dunno...
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
More than 10% of the population are committed Leavers. Remaining is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months
Now what?
Playing a constructive role in European integration is a viable national strategy for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. A British nationalism that seeks to disconnect us from the rest of Europe is not. However long it takes to get resolved, there can only be one ending.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And more than 10% of the population are convinced that the EU is a hostile power against which they need to fight for their freedom.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Surely adjective? Or adverb?
Clean is surely an adjective?
All of those examples are adjectives, not adverbs.
Hopefully the Scottish government will have a good refugee programme for those escaping from south of the border !
Scotland needs to escape the madness and gain quick re entry into the EU . It will have more say there than being stuck with Westminster .
You are bonkers
What’s bonkers about it. Just imagine how much business Scotland can see relocate from ERGistan!
The EU would fast track them in. It’s a shame London couldn’t become a City State , they can keep all their tax money and not have to subsidize Leave areas who do nothing but bitch and moan about London .
If Leavers don’t give a fig about the Union why should Remainers . I used to be a unionist and part of my Remain vote was because of that but it’s clear now that Scotland should leave and not have to put up with the failed state south of the border .
While in the real world the only region of the UK which has lower employment now than it did five years ago is Scotland:
Possibility one: Scotland's economy is creating more jobs than England & Wales. Ha! Look, we're doing so much better than you. This is proof that we don't need you, and would be better off independent.
Possibility two: Scotland's economy is creating fewer jobs than England & Wales. English scum are stealing our jobs. This is proof we would be better off independent.
Possibility three: Scotland's economy is creating fewer jobs than England & Wales. Evil Tory scum are preventing the immigration we need [since we're scaring off the English with our rhetoric and have negative natural population growth]. Labour are too weak to do anything about this.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And more than 10% of the population are convinced that the EU is a hostile power against which they need to fight for their freedom.
I would remind you I voted remain and accept we need to leave but in a sensible way.
Corbyn's inability to back a referendum puts labour in the dock as well and you can protest as much as you like but labour are complicit in this chaos
You don't back another referendum yourself? Or you don't sometimes...
So you condemn Corbyn for doing that which you don't do yourself, hypocrisy surely?
Also you may not have noticed but Corbyn has actually backed a referendum with votes in the houses of Parliament, it is once again your side (the Conservatives) that is causing the problems and then blocking the exits. That is if as you claim backing another referendum is a solution to the problem (potentially it is)
If you have a problem with the Brexit chaos then it is the Conservatives who deserve your criticism, they are almost wholly responsible for where we have ended up.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Surely adjective? Or adverb?
Clean is surely an adjective?
All of those examples are adjectives, not adverbs.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And more than 10% of the population are convinced that the EU is a hostile power against which they need to fight for their freedom.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
Corbyn campaigned more than any other Labour MP, grow up and blame your own side rather than others for failing to stop you.
Ha ha -- said with a straight face lol
I wouldn't expect you to be convinced by something that wasn't backed up by the likes of Breitbart and Guido...
Cameron’s fateful decision will surely go down in history as one of the worst ever made .
He then ran a dreadful campaign , ignoring pleas to move away from the economy and try to talk about other issues and bring a bit of emotion into things.
Corbyns useless attempts didn’t help , he spent most of the time slagging off the Tories rather than talking about the EU.
The media were obsessed with the David and Bozo show . The BBC in its desperate attempt to not look biased used false equivalency .
It pitted one pro EU expert in a field against one pro Brexit but never mentioned that 95% of opinion was behind the former , it suggested a balanced for and against position .
At the end though it was Cameron who owns the whole sorry mess. He couldn’t even get Tory voters to even split between Remain and Leave .
I would remind you I voted remain and accept we need to leave but in a sensible way.
Corbyn's inability to back a referendum puts labour in the dock as well and you can protest as much as you like but labour are complicit in this chaos
You don't back another referendum yourself? Or you don't sometimes...
So you condemn Corbyn for doing that which you don't do yourself, hypocrisy surely?
Also you may not have noticed but Corbyn has actually backed a referendum with votes in the houses of Parliament, it is once again your side (the Conservatives) that is causing the problems and then blocking the exits.
If you have a problem with the Brexit chaos then it is the Conservatives who deserve your criticism, they are almost wholly responsible for where we have ended up.
Labour are certainly blocking the exits. Let's face it, it wouldn't matter what was in the WA, they'd have voted it down.
I don't blame them for this particularly. They saw the chance to destroy the government and took it. The danger is they could be destroying themselves at the same time.
Like Sinn Fein and the DUP, the Labour and Conservative parties need the other, to give people a reason to vote for them. When one collapses in the polls, so does the other.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
More than 10% of the population are committed Leavers. Remaining is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months
Now what?
Playing a constructive role in European integration is a viable national strategy for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. A British nationalism that seeks to disconnect us from the rest of Europe is not. However long it takes to get resolved, there can only be one ending.
The latter is viable. You just don't like it.
William sees the total destruction of the United Kingdom as just punishment for it having the temerity to vote to Leave, and insurance against it ever happening again.
I suppose it’s possible Steve Bannon is confusing Boris with Jacob Rees-Mogg, who beat a path to his door a year or so back as I recall. Both Latin-spouting comedy Englishmen with odd geopolitical ideas. Easy to get mixed up? Dunno...
Cameron’s fateful decision will surely go down in history as one of the worst ever made .
He then ran a dreadful campaign , ignoring pleas to move away from the economy and try to talk about other issues and bring a bit of emotion into things.
Corbyns useless attempts didn’t help , he spent most of the time slagging off the Tories rather than talking about the EU.
The media were obsessed with the David and Bozo show . The BBC in its desperate attempt to not look biased used false equivalency .
It pitted one pro EU expert in a field against one pro Brexit but never mentioned that 95% of opinion was behind the former , it suggested a balanced for and against position .
At the end though it was Cameron who owns the whole sorry mess. He couldn’t even get Tory voters to even split between Remain and Leave .
The sad thing is that voters have minds of their own. They don't do what the politicians want.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
Corbyn campaigned more than any other Labour MP, grow up and blame your own side rather than others for failing to stop you.
In fairness to Corbyn, I've never thought he owed any obligation to anyone to campaign hard for Remain. Labour members cannot have been unaware of his voting record when they elected him.
They chose to believe that he didn't really mean it.
I suppose it’s possible Steve Bannon is confusing Boris with Jacob Rees-Mogg, who beat a path to his door a year or so back as I recall. Both Latin-spouting comedy Englishmen with odd geopolitical ideas. Easy to get mixed up? Dunno...
I would remind you I voted remain and accept we need to leave but in a sensible way.
Corbyn's inability to back a referendum puts labour in the dock as well and you can protest as much as you like but labour are complicit in this chaos
You don't back another referendum yourself? Or you don't sometimes...
So you condemn Corbyn for doing that which you don't do yourself, hypocrisy surely?
Also you may not have noticed but Corbyn has actually backed a referendum with votes in the houses of Parliament, it is once again your side (the Conservatives) that is causing the problems and then blocking the exits.
If you have a problem with the Brexit chaos then it is the Conservatives who deserve your criticism, they are almost wholly responsible for where we have ended up.
Labour are certainly blocking the exits. Let's face it, it wouldn't matter what was in the WA, they'd have voted it down.
I don't blame them for this particularly. They saw the chance to destroy the government and took it. The danger is they could be destroying themselves at the same time.
Like Sinn Fein and the DUP, the Labour and Conservative parties need the other, to give people a reason to vote for them. When one collapses in the polls, so does the other.
I would remind you I voted remain and accept we need to leave but in a sensible way.
Corbyn's inability to back a referendum puts labour in the dock as well and you can protest as much as you like but labour are complicit in this chaos
You don't back another referendum yourself? Or you don't sometimes...
So you condemn Corbyn for doing that which you don't do yourself, hypocrisy surely?
Also you may not have noticed but Corbyn has actually backed a referendum with votes in the houses of Parliament, it is once again your side (the Conservatives) that is causing the problems and then blocking the exits.
If you have a problem with the Brexit chaos then it is the Conservatives who deserve your criticism, they are almost wholly responsible for where we have ended up.
I accept ERG are very much responsible, but the agonies over a referendum by labour and Corbyns refusal is causing the collapse in their ratings to the Lib Dems and to TBP in leave areas.
I want to leave on TM deal or similar but accept the HOC may force a referendum or GE and it may well be the only way out
I reject the UKIP infiltration of my party but I only have one vote that will go to Hunt as I have always said I would not vote for Boris
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Surely adjective? Or adverb?
Clean is surely an adjective?
All of those examples are adjectives, not adverbs.
I would remind you I voted remain and accept we need to leave but in a sensible way.
Corbyn's inability to back a referendum puts labour in the dock as well and you can protest as much as you like but labour are complicit in this chaos
You don't back another referendum yourself? Or you don't sometimes...
So you condemn Corbyn for doing that which you don't do yourself, hypocrisy surely?
Also you may not have noticed but Corbyn has actually backed a referendum with votes in the houses of Parliament, it is once again your side (the Conservatives) that is causing the problems and then blocking the exits.
If you have a problem with the Brexit chaos then it is the Conservatives who deserve your criticism, they are almost wholly responsible for where we have ended up.
Labour are certainly blocking the exits. Let's face it, it wouldn't matter what was in the WA, they'd have voted it down.
I don't blame them for this particularly. They saw the chance to destroy the government and took it. The danger is they could be destroying themselves at the same time.
Like Sinn Fein and the DUP, the Labour and Conservative parties need the other, to give people a reason to vote for them. When one collapses in the polls, so does the other.
I did just add a bit in, the post was particularly in response to Big G talking about Corbyn inability to back another referendum as if that was the solution and it was Corbyn that was blocking it, but it isn't. The Tories have blocked another referendum, it has been overwhelmingly voted for without them.
Saying Labour blocked May's deal as an exit and also no deal (or have voted that way anyway) is true, which is why I slightly changed my post to specify that part was in response to Big G.
Everyone is blocking ways, or pulling other ways but if Big G is specifying Brexit to be the problem and another referendum to be the possible solution then the Tories are almost completely at fault. If no deal or May's deal are the answer then Labour share blame for blocking those, although generally quite proudly so.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Surely adjective? Or adverb?
Clean is surely an adjective?
All of those examples are adjectives, not adverbs.
I suppose it’s possible Steve Bannon is confusing Boris with Jacob Rees-Mogg, who beat a path to his door a year or so back as I recall. Both Latin-spouting comedy Englishmen with odd geopolitical ideas. Easy to get mixed up? Dunno...
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
More than 10% of the population are committed Leavers. Remaining is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months
Now what?
Playing a constructive role in European integration is a viable national strategy for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. A British nationalism that seeks to disconnect us from the rest of Europe is not. However long it takes to get resolved, there can only be one ending.
The latter is viable. You just don't like it.
William sees the total destruction of the United Kingdom as just punishment for it having the temerity to vote to Leave, and insurance against it ever happening again.
Whether it's just punishment or not, it's clearly a probable consequence.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
More than 10% of the population are committed Leavers. Remaining is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months
Now what?
Playing a constructive role in European integration is a viable national strategy for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. A British nationalism that seeks to disconnect us from the rest of Europe is not. However long it takes to get resolved, there can only be one ending.
The latter is viable. You just don't like it.
When you think the British identity that would be necessary for it to become viable will become the superior one in constituent parts of the UK? Conservative members seem to be hiding there commitment to Britishness pretty well.
I would remind you I voted remain and accept we need to leave but in a sensible way.
Corbyn's inability to back a referendum puts labour in the dock as well and you can protest as much as you like but labour are complicit in this chaos
You don't back another referendum yourself? Or you don't sometimes...
So you condemn Corbyn for doing that which you don't do yourself, hypocrisy surely?
Also you may not have noticed but Corbyn has actually backed a referendum with votes in the houses of Parliament, it is once again your side (the Conservatives) that is causing the problems and then blocking the exits.
If you have a problem with the Brexit chaos then it is the Conservatives who deserve your criticism, they are almost wholly responsible for where we have ended up.
I accept ERG are very much responsible, but the agonies over a referendum by labour and Corbyns refusal is causing the collapse in their ratings to the Lib Dems and to TBP in leave areas.
I want to leave on TM deal or similar but accept the HOC may force a referendum or GE and it may well be the only way out
I reject the UKIP infiltration of my party but I only have one vote that will go to Hunt as I have always said I would not vote for Boris
There is no UKIP infiltration of your party. That is just an excuse made by the pro-EU faction to try and hide from the fact they have long been been a tiny minority in the Conservative movement.
I would remind you I voted remain and accept we need to leave but in a sensible way.
Corbyn's inability to back a referendum puts labour in the dock as well and you can protest as much as you like but labour are complicit in this chaos
You don't back another referendum yourself? Or you don't sometimes...
So you condemn Corbyn for doing that which you don't do yourself, hypocrisy surely?
Also you may not have noticed but Corbyn has actually backed a referendum with votes in the houses of Parliament, it is once again your side (the Conservatives) that is causing the problems and then blocking the exits.
If you have a problem with the Brexit chaos then it is the Conservatives who deserve your criticism, they are almost wholly responsible for where we have ended up.
I accept ERG are very much responsible, but the agonies over a referendum by labour and Corbyns refusal is causing the collapse in their ratings to the Lib Dems and to TBP in leave areas.
I want to leave on TM deal or similar but accept the HOC may force a referendum or GE and it may well be the only way out
I reject the UKIP infiltration of my party but I only have one vote that will go to Hunt as I have always said I would not vote for Boris
The EU election boosted it a bit but things seem to be calming down slightly in Labour polling, most recent polls show us ahead (I think all but YouGov)
I think Labour have pretty much already shifted to a referendum on any deal position anyway, the argument seems to be more about what we campaign for in that referendum (if it happens)
My personal preference would be the same as last time with people free to campaign for whichever side they want.
Edit: Although I wouldn't mind Corbyn staying out of it altogether, give people less excuse to have a go at him if they don't win.
I would remind you I voted remain and accept we need to leave but in a sensible way.
Corbyn's inability to back a referendum puts labour in the dock as well and you can protest as much as you like but labour are complicit in this chaos
You don't back another referendum yourself? Or you don't sometimes...
So you condemn Corbyn for doing that which you don't do yourself, hypocrisy surely?
Also you may not have noticed but Corbyn has actually backed a referendum with votes in the houses of Parliament, it is once again your side (the Conservatives) that is causing the problems and then blocking the exits.
If you have a problem with the Brexit chaos then it is the Conservatives who deserve your criticism, they are almost wholly responsible for where we have ended up.
Labour are certainly blocking the exits. Let's face it, it wouldn't matter what was in the WA, they'd have voted it down.
I don't blame them for this particularly. They saw the chance to destroy the government and took it. The danger is they could be destroying themselves at the same time.
Like Sinn Fein and the DUP, the Labour and Conservative parties need the other, to give people a reason to vote for them. When one collapses in the polls, so does the other.
I did just add a bit in, the post was particularly in response to Big G talking about Corbyn inability to back another referendum as if that was the solution and it was Corbyn that was blocking it, but it isn't. The Tories have blocked another referendum, it has been overwhelmingly voted for without them.
Saying Labour blocked May's deal as an exit and also no deal (or have voted that way anyway) is true, which is why I slightly changed my post to specify that part was in response to Big G.
Everyone is blocking ways, or pulling other ways but if Big G is specifying Brexit to be the problem and another referendum to be the possible solution then the Tories are almost completely at fault. If no deal or May's deal are the answer then Labour share blame for blocking those, although generally quite proudly so.
My posts state that I support TM deal or similar and I do not support Boris
My reference to a GE or referendum was stating an option towards a solution but I am neutral on both
Corbyn's refusal to whip his mps for a referendum to remain and unite all the oposition has added to the deadlock
About the only thing of any note one can glean from Johnson's column is a hint that he might ditch restrictions on Freedom of Movement as a path to a deal. But it's only a very slight hint.
And really it's not clear how ditching that red line would improve the chances of a deal being accepted by the HoC anyway.
My posts state that I support TM deal or similar and I do not support Boris
My reference to a GE or referendum was stating an option towards a solution but I am neutral on both
Corbyn's refusal to whip his mps for a referendum to remain and unite all the oposition has added to the deadlock
But he has whipped them for a referendum... it has lost every time because the Conservatives have voted it down...
He has also tried for your other solution, a GE.
It turns out Corbyn whipping for these things doesn't solve the problem as there are hundreds of Conservative MPs who vote against these solutions you suggest.
About the only thing of any note one can glean from Johnson's column is a hint that he might ditch restrictions on Freedom of Movement as a path to a deal. But it's only a very slight hint.
And really it's not clear how ditching that red line would improve the chances of a deal being accepted by the HoC anyway.
He might be able to unlock quite a bit more from the EU for that.
Cameron’s fateful decision will surely go down in history as one of the worst ever made .
He then ran a dreadful campaign , ignoring pleas to move away from the economy and try to talk about other issues and bring a bit of emotion into things.
Corbyns useless attempts didn’t help , he spent most of the time slagging off the Tories rather than talking about the EU.
The media were obsessed with the David and Bozo show . The BBC in its desperate attempt to not look biased used false equivalency .
It pitted one pro EU expert in a field against one pro Brexit but never mentioned that 95% of opinion was behind the former , it suggested a balanced for and against position .
At the end though it was Cameron who owns the whole sorry mess. He couldn’t even get Tory voters to even split between Remain and Leave .
The sad thing is that voters have minds of their own. They don't do what the politicians want.
How many EU countries would be stupid enough to have a referendum and leave this kind of decision out of a national election? Even Le Pen and Salvini et al wouldn't inflict an referendum and EU exit on their country?
We had at a moment in time three utterly useless, clueless, political leaders...Cameron, Clegg and Miliband....all three of them are responsible for this debacle
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
More than 10% of the population are committed Leavers. Remaining is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months
Now what?
Playing a constructive role in European integration is a viable national strategy for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. A British nationalism that seeks to disconnect us from the rest of Europe is not. However long it takes to get resolved, there can only be one ending.
The latter is viable. You just don't like it.
William sees the total destruction of the United Kingdom as just punishment for it having the temerity to vote to Leave, and insurance against it ever happening again.
Whether it's just punishment or not, it's clearly a probable consequence.
Not really. Scottish independence got close five years ago before any of this Brexit stuff happened.
About the only thing of any note one can glean from Johnson's column is a hint that he might ditch restrictions on Freedom of Movement as a path to a deal. But it's only a very slight hint.
And really it's not clear how ditching that red line would improve the chances of a deal being accepted by the HoC anyway.
He might be able to unlock quite a bit more from the EU for that.
But, many Leavers and TBP would cry foul.
Yes, so it would basically require a significant number of Labour votes. And for Labour leavers immigration is THE issue. And the backstop would still remain.
how about whoever becomes Tory leader goes for a General Election, with an election pact with the Brexit party? Brexit/Tory coalition with thumping majority. And God help us all.
So they get their majority but what happens next ?
What do they agree to do ?
Take us out of the EU with no deal. Stop immigration. Repeal equalities legislation. Repeal worker's rights protection. Refuse to do anything about climate change. Lower taxes for higher earners, reduce benefits. Privatise everything in sight. Screw our ability to get factual information. Screw the economy. Break up the Union. Enable more rightwing thuggery on our streets. Arrest and beat up peaceful protestors.
And so on and so on.
Bit of advice - spend less time on the internet and bit more in the real world.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Deceitful or fallacious is the best I can come up with as in the cases you cite they are all adjectives added with purpose of spinning or misleading people
how about whoever becomes Tory leader goes for a General Election, with an election pact with the Brexit party? Brexit/Tory coalition with thumping majority. And God help us all.
So they get their majority but what happens next ?
What do they agree to do ?
Take us out of the EU with no deal. Stop immigration. Repeal equalities legislation. Repeal worker's rights protection. Refuse to do anything about climate change. Lower taxes for higher earners, reduce benefits. Privatise everything in sight. Screw our ability to get factual information. Screw the economy. Break up the Union. Enable more rightwing thuggery on our streets. Arrest and beat up peaceful protestors.
And so on and so on.
Bit of advice - spend less time on the internet and bit more in the real world.
Maybe Mrs B should add a little more water to whatever she's drinking.
I wonder what Johnson was so keen to hide on his laptop? He obviously does not trust his girlfriend with the information or images he had on the machine. To be honest he should confess if he was masturbating over porn films or images IMO and defuse the situation. His relationship is probably done for if he was hiding anything else anyway so what has he got to lose?
I wonder what Johnson was so keen to hide on his laptop? He obviously does not trust his girlfriend with the information or images he had on the machine. To be honest he should confess if he was masturbating over porn films or images IMO and defuse the situation. His relationship is probably done for if he was hiding anything else anyway so what has he got to lose?
I wonder what Johnson was so keen to hide on his laptop? He obviously does not trust his girlfriend with the information or images he had on the machine. To be honest he should confess if he was masturbating over porn films or images IMO and defuse the situation. His relationship is probably done for if he was hiding anything else anyway so what has he got to lose?
More speculation. I can do that too - she might have been taking it off him to make him clean up the mess he made.
What’s bonkers about it. Just imagine how much business Scotland can see relocate from ERGistan!
The EU would fast track them in. It’s a shame London couldn’t become a City State , they can keep all their tax money and not have to subsidize Leave areas who do nothing but bitch and moan about London .
If Leavers don’t give a fig about the Union why should Remainers . I used to be a unionist and part of my Remain vote was because of that but it’s clear now that Scotland should leave and not have to put up with the failed state south of the border .
While in the real world the only region of the UK which has lower employment now than it did five years ago is Scotland:
What’s bonkers about it. Just imagine how much business Scotland can see relocate from ERGistan!
The EU would fast track them in. It’s a shame London couldn’t become a City State , they can keep all their tax money and not have to subsidize Leave areas who do nothing but bitch and moan about London .
If Leavers don’t give a fig about the Union why should Remainers . I used to be a unionist and part of my Remain vote was because of that but it’s clear now that Scotland should leave and not have to put up with the failed state south of the border .
While in the real world the only region of the UK which has lower employment now than it did five years ago is Scotland:
Possibility one: Scotland's economy is creating more jobs than England & Wales. Ha! Look, we're doing so much better than you. This is proof that we don't need you, and would be better off independent.
Possibility two: Scotland's economy is creating fewer jobs than England & Wales. English scum are stealing our jobs. This is proof we would be better off independent.
I would remind you I voted remain and accept we need to leave but in a sensible way.
Corbyn's inability to back a referendum puts labour in the dock as well and you can protest as much as you like but labour are complicit in this chaos
You don't back another referendum yourself? Or you don't sometimes...
So you condemn Corbyn for doing that which you don't do yourself, hypocrisy surely?
Also you may not have noticed but Corbyn has actually backed a referendum with votes in the houses of Parliament, it is once again your side (the Conservatives) that is causing the problems and then blocking the exits.
If you have a problem with the Brexit chaos then it is the Conservatives who deserve your criticism, they are almost wholly responsible for where we have ended up.
I accept ERG are very much responsible, but the agonies over a referendum by labour and Corbyns refusal is causing the collapse in their ratings to the Lib Dems and to TBP in leave areas.
I want to leave on TM deal or similar but accept the HOC may force a referendum or GE and it may well be the only way out
I reject the UKIP infiltration of my party but I only have one vote that will go to Hunt as I have always said I would not vote for Boris
There is no UKIP infiltration of your party. That is just an excuse made by the pro-EU faction to try and hide from the fact they have long been been a tiny minority in the Conservative movement.
I wonder what Johnson was so keen to hide on his laptop? He obviously does not trust his girlfriend with the information or images he had on the machine. To be honest he should confess if he was masturbating over porn films or images IMO and defuse the situation. His relationship is probably done for if he was hiding anything else anyway so what has he got to lose?
More speculation. I can do that too - she might have been taking it off him to make him clean up the mess he made.
It was his Brexit masterplan.
It does seem very strange that he hasn't given an account of what happened. It doesn't seem likely that his girlfriend will contradict him, so why not just come up with something sensible?
I wonder what Johnson was so keen to hide on his laptop? He obviously does not trust his girlfriend with the information or images he had on the machine. To be honest he should confess if he was masturbating over porn films or images IMO and defuse the situation. His relationship is probably done for if he was hiding anything else anyway so what has he got to lose?
More speculation. I can do that too - she might have been taking it off him to make him clean up the mess he made.
I wonder what Johnson was so keen to hide on his laptop? He obviously does not trust his girlfriend with the information or images he had on the machine. To be honest he should confess if he was masturbating over porn films or images IMO and defuse the situation. His relationship is probably done for if he was hiding anything else anyway so what has he got to lose?
I can see why his girlfriend was so pissed off with him spilling red wine on her sofa though..my wife has never forgiven me for my own offence...and we are going back over 10 years...
I wonder what Johnson was so keen to hide on his laptop? He obviously does not trust his girlfriend with the information or images he had on the machine. To be honest he should confess if he was masturbating over porn films or images IMO and defuse the situation. His relationship is probably done for if he was hiding anything else anyway so what has he got to lose?
More speculation. I can do that too - she might have been taking it off him to make him clean up the mess he made.
Cameron’s fateful decision will surely go down in history as one of the worst ever made .
He then ran a dreadful campaign , ignoring pleas to move away from the economy and try to talk about other issues and bring a bit of emotion into things.
Corbyns useless attempts didn’t help , he spent most of the time slagging off the Tories rather than talking about the EU.
The media were obsessed with the David and Bozo show . The BBC in its desperate attempt to not look biased used false equivalency .
It pitted one pro EU expert in a field against one pro Brexit but never mentioned that 95% of opinion was behind the former , it suggested a balanced for and against position .
At the end though it was Cameron who owns the whole sorry mess. He couldn’t even get Tory voters to even split between Remain and Leave .
The sad thing is that voters have minds of their own. They don't do what the politicians want.
How many EU countries would be stupid enough to have a referendum and leave this kind of decision out of a national election? Even Le Pen and Salvini et al wouldn't inflict an referendum and EU exit on their country?
We had at a moment in time three utterly useless, clueless, political leaders...Cameron, Clegg and Miliband....all three of them are responsible for this debacle
Cameron, Clegg and Miliband are useless? Have you just woken from a coma you entered in 2015?
I have some bad news for you, over the next 4 or so years it gets progressively worse. A soviet era Marxist takes over the Labour Party, the Russians hijack the 2016 US Presidential election...but wait there's more, someone called Boris becomes PM.
According to the Sunday Times his neighbours bought their's for £850k and it has previously housed council tenants.
Now we all have different housing preferences but Boris must be paying a fortune to live in some council block in Peckham with leftie lovies as neighbours.
That alone should be enough to question his judgement.
If Johnson wins will he be the first PM in history publicly conducting an unmarried relationship from within 10 Downing Street? Tory blue rinses will forgive anything these days.
I wonder what Johnson was so keen to hide on his laptop? He obviously does not trust his girlfriend with the information or images he had on the machine. To be honest he should confess if he was masturbating over porn films or images IMO and defuse the situation. His relationship is probably done for if he was hiding anything else anyway so what has he got to lose?
More speculation. I can do that too - she might have been taking it off him to make him clean up the mess he made.
It was his Brexit masterplan.
So there is a plan?
There was. But it got lost when the laptop hit the wall. He hadn't pressed save.
I wonder what Johnson was so keen to hide on his laptop? He obviously does not trust his girlfriend with the information or images he had on the machine. To be honest he should confess if he was masturbating over porn films or images IMO and defuse the situation. His relationship is probably done for if he was hiding anything else anyway so what has he got to lose?
I can see why his girlfriend was so pissed off with him spilling red wine on her sofa though..my wife has never forgiven me for my own offence...and we are going back over 10 years...
OMG. 'Pressure on Boris to come'? I tbink we are entering a private world that only Boris and Carrie should be party to and we would be wise to row back from.
I wonder what Johnson was so keen to hide on his laptop? He obviously does not trust his girlfriend with the information or images he had on the machine. To be honest he should confess if he was masturbating over porn films or images IMO and defuse the situation. His relationship is probably done for if he was hiding anything else anyway so what has he got to lose?
More speculation. I can do that too - she might have been taking it off him to make him clean up the mess he made.
It was his Brexit masterplan.
So there is a plan?
There was. But it got lost when the laptop hit the wall. He hadn't pressed save.
Somebody should tell Hunt to stay off twitter though. In fact i don't understand why any serious politician is on there at all. Stick to serious arguments that need more than 40 characters. Everytime he posts something on twitter he undermines his pitch.
According to the Sunday Times his neighbours bought their's for £850k and it has previously housed council tenants.
Now we all have different housing preferences but Boris must be paying a fortune to live in some council block in Peckham with leftie lovies as neighbours.
That alone should be enough to question his judgement.
It's Miss Symonds flat. Boris got chucked out of his house by his wife.
I wonder what Johnson was so keen to hide on his laptop? He obviously does not trust his girlfriend with the information or images he had on the machine. To be honest he should confess if he was masturbating over porn films or images IMO and defuse the situation. His relationship is probably done for if he was hiding anything else anyway so what has he got to lose?
I can see why his girlfriend was so pissed off with him spilling red wine on her sofa though..my wife has never forgiven me for my own offence...and we are going back over 10 years...
I bet Carrie's sofa was a loaf....
I thought you blamed it on Trotsky.
That was the name of your dog wasn't it ?
wow (double wow).....I am so impressed Richard...I did discuss said wine/sofa problem here probably ten or so years ago....and blamed Trotsky who is still barking...
I am utterly and incredulously gobsmacked that you can remember....
According to the Sunday Times his neighbours bought their's for £850k and it has previously housed council tenants.
Now we all have different housing preferences but Boris must be paying a fortune to live in some council block in Peckham with leftie lovies as neighbours.
That alone should be enough to question his judgement.
Not his flat. STimes says it is Carrie's and he has no financial interest.
Comments
We did that but you will not accept it.
The term @viewcode is after is surely "spin".
*The 2016 ones.
Corbyn's inability to back a referendum puts labour in the dock as well and you can protest as much as you like but labour are complicit in this chaos
So you condemn Corbyn for doing that which you don't do yourself, hypocrisy surely?
Also you may not have noticed but Corbyn has actually backed a referendum with votes in the houses of Parliament, it is once again your side (the Conservatives) that is causing the problems and then blocking the exits. That is if as you claim backing another referendum is a solution to the problem (potentially it is)
If you have a problem with the Brexit chaos then it is the Conservatives who deserve your criticism, they are almost wholly responsible for where we have ended up.
He then ran a dreadful campaign , ignoring pleas to move away from the economy and try to talk about other issues and bring a bit of emotion into things.
Corbyns useless attempts didn’t help , he spent most of the time slagging off the Tories rather than talking about the EU.
The media were obsessed with the David and Bozo show . The BBC in its desperate attempt to not look biased used false equivalency .
It pitted one pro EU expert in a field against one pro Brexit but never mentioned that 95% of opinion was behind the former , it suggested a balanced for and against position .
At the end though it was Cameron who owns the whole sorry mess. He couldn’t even get Tory voters to even split between Remain and Leave .
I don't blame them for this particularly. They saw the chance to destroy the government and took it. The danger is they could be destroying themselves at the same time.
Like Sinn Fein and the DUP, the Labour and Conservative parties need the other, to give people a reason to vote for them. When one collapses in the polls, so does the other.
I want to leave on TM deal or similar but accept the HOC may force a referendum or GE and it may well be the only way out
I reject the UKIP infiltration of my party but I only have one vote that will go to Hunt as I have always said I would not vote for Boris
Saying Labour blocked May's deal as an exit and also no deal (or have voted that way anyway) is true, which is why I slightly changed my post to specify that part was in response to Big G.
Everyone is blocking ways, or pulling other ways but if Big G is specifying Brexit to be the problem and another referendum to be the possible solution then the Tories are almost completely at fault. If no deal or May's deal are the answer then Labour share blame for blocking those, although generally quite proudly so.
He also somewhat unbelievably said that Trump has "never lied"
I think Labour have pretty much already shifted to a referendum on any deal position anyway, the argument seems to be more about what we campaign for in that referendum (if it happens)
My personal preference would be the same as last time with people free to campaign for whichever side they want.
Edit: Although I wouldn't mind Corbyn staying out of it altogether, give people less excuse to have a go at him if they don't win.
My reference to a GE or referendum was stating an option towards a solution but I am neutral on both
Corbyn's refusal to whip his mps for a referendum to remain and unite all the oposition has added to the deadlock
And really it's not clear how ditching that red line would improve the chances of a deal being accepted by the HoC anyway.
He has also tried for your other solution, a GE.
It turns out Corbyn whipping for these things doesn't solve the problem as there are hundreds of Conservative MPs who vote against these solutions you suggest.
But, many Leavers and TBP would cry foul.
We had at a moment in time three utterly useless, clueless, political leaders...Cameron, Clegg and Miliband....all three of them are responsible for this debacle
And that's something which Scotland should be concerned about.
It does seem very strange that he hasn't given an account of what happened. It doesn't seem likely that his girlfriend will contradict him, so why not just come up with something sensible?
I bet Carrie's sofa was a loaf....
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1142902594387550208?s=20
I have some bad news for you, over the next 4 or so years it gets progressively worse. A soviet era Marxist takes over the Labour Party, the Russians hijack the 2016 US Presidential election...but wait there's more, someone called Boris becomes PM.
According to the Sunday Times his neighbours bought their's for £850k and it has previously housed council tenants.
Now we all have different housing preferences but Boris must be paying a fortune to live in some council block in Peckham with leftie lovies as neighbours.
That alone should be enough to question his judgement.
Wasn't aware things had gotten so bad with his mistress.
That was the name of your dog wasn't it ?
Will he be our first homeless Prime Minister?
I am utterly and incredulously gobsmacked that you can remember....
https://twitter.com/guardiannews/status/1142892108203876353?s=21