Mr. Seal, point of order: any agreement between May and Barnier was subject to votes in the Commons and the European Parliament. Your analogy is flawed, because the comparison would be with a man who telephones his wife to check before buying.
Yes and the old car has not been signed off just yet, so it is possible to Revoke, keep the old car and go talk it through with 'er indoors, who quite liked the old car anyway.
OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?
It's the classic distraction technique when the facts can't really be disputed. Sadly it's what passes for argument these days.
OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?
It's the classic distraction technique when the facts can't really be disputed. Sadly it's what passes for argument these days.
There's no facts to dispute here. Bannon claims he was advising Boris - Boris categorically denies it. Both were in public domain over a year ago. Now we have a video of Bannon repeating claims he made and were denied last year. What's news here? Boris denied it then and denies it now and still all we have for Bannon's supposed involvement is Bannon claiming he was involved.
how about whoever becomes Tory leader goes for a General Election, with an election pact with the Brexit party? Brexit/Tory coalition with thumping majority. And God help us all.
So they get their majority but what happens next ?
What do they agree to do ?
Take us out of the EU with no deal. Stop immigration. Repeal equalities legislation. Repeal worker's rights protection. Refuse to do anything about climate change. Lower taxes for higher earners, reduce benefits. Privatise everything in sight. Screw our ability to get factual information. Screw the economy. Break up the Union. Enable more rightwing thuggery on our streets. Arrest and beat up peaceful protestors.
OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?
Carole is the Boy Who Cried Wolf.
She gets so hyperbolic it is difficult to determine whether what she has hit is gold or iron pyrite.
You're doing it again. I point out that people attack the witness instead of examining the point, and you...attack the witness instead of examining the point.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?
It's the classic distraction technique when the facts can't really be disputed. Sadly it's what passes for argument these days.
There's no facts to dispute here. Bannon claims he was advising Boris - Boris categorically denies it. Both were in public domain over a year ago. Now we have a video of Bannon repeating claims he made and were denied last year. What's news here? Boris denied it then and denies it now and still all we have for Bannon's supposed involvement is Bannon claiming he was involved.
No facts.
So we are all support to just accept the word of a proven liar and forget about it? I'm sure Johnson would love it to be that simple but it's not. Trump gets away with it because either his core don't care or are too thick to know he's lying. Fortunately we haven't quite reached that stage here yet but I am expecting Johnson to be testing the boundaries.
I asked for a catchy phrase to describe the phenomenon where people attack the witness. You gave me a catchy phrase attacking the witness.
You're moving the goalposts. Your question was obviously designed to defend Carole's piece and to suggest that those doubting her should read the article, not to elict the name of a fallacy.
On that point, it's pretty obvious that Bannon and Johnson are both proven liars, so who knows if they had dealings with each other. Bannon strikes me as the guy that comes up to you at a party for 20 minutes and then claims credit for everything that happens afterward.
Hopefully the Scottish government will have a good refugee programme for those escaping from south of the border !
Scotland needs to escape the madness and gain quick re entry into the EU . It will have more say there than being stuck with Westminster .
You are bonkers
What’s bonkers about it. Just imagine how much business Scotland can see relocate from ERGistan!
The EU would fast track them in. It’s a shame London couldn’t become a City State , they can keep all their tax money and not have to subsidize Leave areas who do nothing but bitch and moan about London .
If Leavers don’t give a fig about the Union why should Remainers . I used to be a unionist and part of my Remain vote was because of that but it’s clear now that Scotland should leave and not have to put up with the failed state south of the border .
While in the real world the only region of the UK which has lower employment now than it did five years ago is Scotland:
You're moving the goalposts. Your question was obviously designed to defend Carole's piece and to suggest that those doubting her should read the article, not to elict the name of a fallacy.
That is not true. I have pointed out in previous days this tendency of people to attack the witness and now I want a name for the trope. As I pointed out, it's gone past "ad hominem" and is now in some space where the truth is not simply sidelined, it's irrelevant: arguments are dealt with by attacking the witness. I wanted a name for this phenomenon which is why I asked the question I did.
To remind you, this was the exact question I asked:
"OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?"
how about whoever becomes Tory leader goes for a General Election, with an election pact with the Brexit party? Brexit/Tory coalition with thumping majority. And God help us all.
So they get their majority but what happens next ?
What do they agree to do ?
Take us out of the EU with no deal. Stop immigration. Repeal equalities legislation. Repeal worker's rights protection. Refuse to do anything about climate change. Lower taxes for higher earners, reduce benefits. Privatise everything in sight. Screw our ability to get factual information. Screw the economy. Break up the Union. Enable more rightwing thuggery on our streets. Arrest and beat up peaceful protestors.
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
You're moving the goalposts. Your question was obviously designed to defend Carole's piece and to suggest that those doubting her should read the article, not to elict the name of a fallacy.
That is not true. I have pointed out in previous days this tendency of people to attack the witness and now I want a name for the trope. As I pointed out, it's gone past "ad hominem" and is now in some space where the truth is not simply sidelined, it's irrelevant: arguments are dealt with by attacking the witness. I wanted a name for this phenomenon which is why I asked the question I did.
To remind you, this was the exact question I asked:
"OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?"
"Tribalism" works ok for me. "In-group bias" if you want to sound like a sociologist.
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
What I'm more intrigued by is that this all happened in the early hours of Friday morning. Why weren't they all in bed asleep? Not once have I read "I was woken by an almighty argument, etc."
I see the Nats are starting to get very "active" on pb.com again.
A couple of half-decent polls driven by loaded questions and they get all excited.
It's like adding warm water and some sugar to a jar of yeast.
Away you deluded halfwit it is only TUD and myself and we have never been away. We enjoy you frothers spouting rubbish too much. PS better a Nit than a nut
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
What I'm more intrigued by is that this all happened in the early hours of Friday morning. Why weren't they all in bed asleep? Not once have I read "I was woken by an almighty argument, etc."
No idea, but this is bringing out the most fascinating prejudices among commentators here. malcolm frinstance is subconsciously mapping "normal for Dundee" onto "normal for South London."
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
What I'm more intrigued by is that this all happened in the early hours of Friday morning. Why weren't they all in bed asleep? Not once have I read "I was woken by an almighty argument, etc."
Yes sounds like they have such dire lives they spend their time spying on neighbours hoping for some excitement. Do they have papier-mache walls in their converted flats.
I see the Nits are starting to get very "active" on pb.com again.
A couple of half-decent polls driven by loaded questions and they get all excited.
It's like adding warm water and some sugar to a jar of yeast.
Away you deluded halfwit it is only TUD and myself and we have never been away. We enjoy you frothers spouting rubbish too much. PS better a Nit than a nut
Does Stuart Dickson not count?
Also, it's not just the number: it's the volume. And it's been turned up from about 3 to 8 over the last few days, having more or less been inaudible up to the Euros.
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
What I'm more intrigued by is that this all happened in the early hours of Friday morning. Why weren't they all in bed asleep? Not once have I read "I was woken by an almighty argument, etc."
Yes sounds like they have such dire lives they spend their time spying on neighbours hoping for some excitement. Do they have papier-mache walls in their converted flats.
yes we all work 9-5, live in cupboards and have nothing better to do than give a shit about women potentially being abused.
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
What I'm more intrigued by is that this all happened in the early hours of Friday morning. Why weren't they all in bed asleep? Not once have I read "I was woken by an almighty argument, etc."
No idea, but this is bringing out the most fascinating prejudices among commentators here. malcolm frinstance is subconsciously mapping "normal for Dundee" onto "normal for South London."
Never been to Dundee in my life but spent plenty of time in London so hard to map it I am afraid. I certainly would not be taping my neighbours and giving it to the media, unknown in Scotland I bet. I would call police if I thought any violence ensued. Pretty sordid taping it and sending to newspapers though, sign of lack of moral fibre and in my mind encapsulates what is happening in England. Place is falling apart.
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
What I'm more intrigued by is that this all happened in the early hours of Friday morning. Why weren't they all in bed asleep? Not once have I read "I was woken by an almighty argument, etc."
Yes sounds like they have such dire lives they spend their time spying on neighbours hoping for some excitement. Do they have papier-mache walls in their converted flats.
Just as well that the row didn't happen in Scotland a couple of years ago, could have wound up in the clink...
I see the Nits are starting to get very "active" on pb.com again.
A couple of half-decent polls driven by loaded questions and they get all excited.
It's like adding warm water and some sugar to a jar of yeast.
Away you deluded halfwit it is only TUD and myself and we have never been away. We enjoy you frothers spouting rubbish too much. PS better a Nit than a nut
Does Stuart Dickson not count?
Also, it's not just the number: it's the volume. And it's been turned up from about 3 to 8 over the last few days, having more or less been inaudible up to the Euros.
to be fair Stuart has reappeared but not aware of anybody else. TUD and I are lonely soldiers in a far away place.
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
What I'm more intrigued by is that this all happened in the early hours of Friday morning. Why weren't they all in bed asleep? Not once have I read "I was woken by an almighty argument, etc."
Yes sounds like they have such dire lives they spend their time spying on neighbours hoping for some excitement. Do they have papier-mache walls in their converted flats.
yes we all work 9-5, live in cupboards and have nothing better to do than give a shit about women potentially being abused.
When the police say "nothing to see here" you immediately vacate your cupboard clutching a cassette and head for nearest fleet street newspaper , lovely.
You're moving the goalposts. Your question was obviously designed to defend Carole's piece and to suggest that those doubting her should read the article, not to elict the name of a fallacy.
That is not true. I have pointed out in previous days this tendency of people to attack the witness and now I want a name for the trope. As I pointed out, it's gone past "ad hominem" and is now in some space where the truth is not simply sidelined, it's irrelevant: arguments are dealt with by attacking the witness. I wanted a name for this phenomenon which is why I asked the question I did.
To remind you, this was the exact question I asked:
"OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?"
"Tribalism" works ok for me. "In-group bias" if you want to sound like a sociologist.
Possibly (having just scanned https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_favoritism ). But it doesn't capture the full "the truth is actually irrelevant" flavour. Plus it needs to address negativity towards the outgroup instead of favouring the ingroup. But it was an answer to my question, so thank you.
Hopefully the Scottish government will have a good refugee programme for those escaping from south of the border !
Scotland needs to escape the madness and gain quick re entry into the EU . It will have more say there than being stuck with Westminster .
You are bonkers
What’s bonkers about it. Just imagine how much business Scotland can see relocate from ERGistan!
The EU would fast track them in. It’s a shame London couldn’t become a City State , they can keep all their tax money and not have to subsidize Leave areas who do nothing but bitch and moan about London .
If Leavers don’t give a fig about the Union why should Remainers . I used to be a unionist and part of my Remain vote was because of that but it’s clear now that Scotland should leave and not have to put up with the failed state south of the border .
While in the real world the only region of the UK which has lower employment now than it did five years ago is Scotland:
Possibility one: Scotland's economy is creating more jobs than England & Wales. Ha! Look, we're doing so much better than you. This is proof that we don't need you, and would be better off independent.
Possibility two: Scotland's economy is creating fewer jobs than England & Wales. English scum are stealing our jobs. This is proof we would be better off independent.
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
What I'm more intrigued by is that this all happened in the early hours of Friday morning. Why weren't they all in bed asleep? Not once have I read "I was woken by an almighty argument, etc."
Yes sounds like they have such dire lives they spend their time spying on neighbours hoping for some excitement. Do they have papier-mache walls in their converted flats.
Just as well that the row didn't happen in Scotland a couple of years ago, could have wound up in the clink...
Have to say if any violence or abuse the police at worst should haul them off for a night in the cells. Should be no half measures. However in this case it was Boris getting a bollocking for throwing wine over the sofa, a bit of name calling etc but police did their job.
You're moving the goalposts. Your question was obviously designed to defend Carole's piece and to suggest that those doubting her should read the article, not to elict the name of a fallacy.
That is not true. I have pointed out in previous days this tendency of people to attack the witness and now I want a name for the trope. As I pointed out, it's gone past "ad hominem" and is now in some space where the truth is not simply sidelined, it's irrelevant: arguments are dealt with by attacking the witness. I wanted a name for this phenomenon which is why I asked the question I did.
To remind you, this was the exact question I asked:
"OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?"
"Tribalism" works ok for me. "In-group bias" if you want to sound like a sociologist.
Possibly (having just scanned https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_favoritism ). But it doesn't capture the full "the truth is actually irrelevant" flavour. Plus it needs to address negativity towards the outgroup instead of favouring the ingroup. But it was an answer to my question, so thank you.
Doesn't it depend on who is being critiqued and by whom?
In general, I would say it was an extreme form of confirmation bias, because it involves deciding the answer before the facts have been communicated basis on what you already know (or think you know)
"People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations)."
Hopefully the Scottish government will have a good refugee programme for those escaping from south of the border !
Scotland needs to escape the madness and gain quick re entry into the EU . It will have more say there than being stuck with Westminster .
You are bonkers
What’s bonkers about it. Just imagine how much business Scotland can see relocate from ERGistan!
The EU would fast track them in. It’s a shame London couldn’t become a City State , they can keep all their tax money and not have to subsidize Leave areas who do nothing but bitch and moan about London .
If Leavers don’t give a fig about the Union why should Remainers . I used to be a unionist and part of my Remain vote was because of that but it’s clear now that Scotland should leave and not have to put up with the failed state south of the border .
While in the real world the only region of the UK which has lower employment now than it did five years ago is Scotland:
Possibility one: Scotland's economy is creating more jobs than England & Wales. Ha! Look, we're doing so much better than you. This is proof that we don't need you, and would be better off independent.
Possibility two: Scotland's economy is creating fewer jobs than England & Wales. English scum are stealing our jobs. This is proof we would be better off independent.
Wow. That could prove lethal. It essentially leaves Boris's entire Brexit strategy in tatters. If confronted with it in an interview how could Boris possibly wriggle out? He has to remain in the bunker till the vote is done.
Easy. We'll renogiate the WTO rules, take back control, the unelected bureaucrats in the WTO will cave when they see how determined Boris is, believe in Britain!
The unelected WTO have been holding Britain back for too long in league with the Cosmopolitan Elite. If we have to we'll leave the WTO without a deal that'll show them!
I see the Nits are starting to get very "active" on pb.com again.
A couple of half-decent polls driven by loaded questions and they get all excited.
It's like adding warm water and some sugar to a jar of yeast.
Away you deluded halfwit it is only TUD and myself and we have never been away. We enjoy you frothers spouting rubbish too much. PS better a Nit than a nut
Does Stuart Dickson not count?
Also, it's not just the number: it's the volume. And it's been turned up from about 3 to 8 over the last few days, having more or less been inaudible up to the Euros.
to be fair Stuart has reappeared but not aware of anybody else. TUD and I are lonely soldiers in a far away place.
And my absence was hardly voluntary.
(I happened to see SeanT saying something nice about me in passing and a few weeks later, on a whim, posted on the PB anniversary thread, to say a few words as one of the very earliest regulars around here. I was amazed to find the comment published and that I was no longer blocked, after several years. No warm water or sugar involved.)
I see the Nits are starting to get very "active" on pb.com again.
A couple of half-decent polls driven by loaded questions and they get all excited.
It's like adding warm water and some sugar to a jar of yeast.
Away you deluded halfwit it is only TUD and myself and we have never been away. We enjoy you frothers spouting rubbish too much. PS better a Nit than a nut
Does Stuart Dickson not count?
Also, it's not just the number: it's the volume. And it's been turned up from about 3 to 8 over the last few days, having more or less been inaudible up to the Euros.
Also Stuart can smell independence in the air so no surprise he is back
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
What I'm more intrigued by is that this all happened in the early hours of Friday morning. Why weren't they all in bed asleep? Not once have I read "I was woken by an almighty argument, etc."
Yes sounds like they have such dire lives they spend their time spying on neighbours hoping for some excitement. Do they have papier-mache walls in their converted flats.
yes we all work 9-5, live in cupboards and have nothing better to do than give a shit about women potentially being abused.
When the police say "nothing to see here" you immediately vacate your cupboard clutching a cassette and head for nearest fleet street newspaper , lovely.
I have zero problem with them recording what happened. In many ways it makes sense for them to do so.
I'd like to think I wouldn't go to the media about it though - unless there was another factor (e.g. I felt it was a serious incident but the police had done nothing, and therefore I feared someone might be in danger. That's not the case here.)
There is a bigger issue here though. One of the reasons I'd hesitate to go to the media where someone famous is involved is that I'm well aware I might end up having my name dragged through the mud by his/her 'supporters'.
When it comes to politics, that's not quite healthy.
I see the Nits are starting to get very "active" on pb.com again.
A couple of half-decent polls driven by loaded questions and they get all excited.
It's like adding warm water and some sugar to a jar of yeast.
Away you deluded halfwit it is only TUD and myself and we have never been away. We enjoy you frothers spouting rubbish too much. PS better a Nit than a nut
Does Stuart Dickson not count?
Also, it's not just the number: it's the volume. And it's been turned up from about 3 to 8 over the last few days, having more or less been inaudible up to the Euros.
Also Stuart can smell independence in the air so no surprise he is back
That's my point.
I like you Malc, you know that, and you also know I love the UK and Scotland as a part of it too so I hope we don't fall out too much over it.
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
What I'm more intrigued by is that this all happened in the early hours of Friday morning. Why weren't they all in bed asleep? Not once have I read "I was woken by an almighty argument, etc."
Yes sounds like they have such dire lives they spend their time spying on neighbours hoping for some excitement. Do they have papier-mache walls in their converted flats.
yes we all work 9-5, live in cupboards and have nothing better to do than give a shit about women potentially being abused.
When the police say "nothing to see here" you immediately vacate your cupboard clutching a cassette and head for nearest fleet street newspaper , lovely.
The police didn't say nothing to see here did they, they said that everyone was safe and well. There was definitely an altercation, and that raised concerns with at least one set of neighbours. Its not as if Boris doesn't have previous for inciting violence if not being violent himself. Anyway if you think Boris is bad news, why not send the tape along?
So do you think Boris didn't answer Iain Dale's questions (yes this was a conservative party event) because what happened was 1. Private 2. Nothing happened. The police said so 3. Because he know whats on the tape and can't lie again
You're moving the goalposts. Your question was obviously designed to defend Carole's piece and to suggest that those doubting her should read the article, not to elict the name of a fallacy.
That is not true. I have pointed out in previous days this tendency of people to attack the witness and now I want a name for the trope. As I pointed out, it's gone past "ad hominem" and is now in some space where the truth is not simply sidelined, it's irrelevant: arguments are dealt with by attacking the witness. I wanted a name for this phenomenon which is why I asked the question I did.
To remind you, this was the exact question I asked:
"OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?"
"Tribalism" works ok for me. "In-group bias" if you want to sound like a sociologist.
Possibly (having just scanned https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_favoritism ). But it doesn't capture the full "the truth is actually irrelevant" flavour. Plus it needs to address negativity towards the outgroup instead of favouring the ingroup. But it was an answer to my question, so thank you.
Don't blame the goalpost (subscript: *for missing your shot*). It's not quite right admittedly, but I think it sort of gets the idea you are attacking the wrong thing, which whilst linked to the undesirable result, is not at fault.
Hopefully the Scottish government will have a good refugee programme for those escaping from south of the border !
Scotland needs to escape the madness and gain quick re entry into the EU . It will have more say there than being stuck with Westminster .
You are bonkers
What’s bonkers about it. Just imagine how much business Scotland can see relocate from ERGistan!
The EU would fast track them in. It’s a shame London couldn’t become a City State , they can keep all their tax money and not have to subsidize Leave areas who do nothing but bitch and moan about London .
If Leavers don’t give a fig about the Union why should Remainers . I used to be a unionist and part of my Remain vote was because of that but it’s clear now that Scotland should leave and not have to put up with the failed state south of the border .
Welcome aboard!
Thanks . It will be a bit sad to see Scotland go but both countries politics are moving in a separate direction .
And Sturgeon stands for a welcoming country , tolerant who actually cares about people .
Since the 2016 ref result she’s stood out and wipes the floor with politicians south of the border.
I think she’s great and wish all Scots well if they decide to go their own way .
the difference between the SDP/Liberal alliance and a Tory/Brexit Party alliance is that in the latter the people at the top are driven by personal amibition, not political principle, so will be driving this to get power. Plus those parties are top down and people would do what they are told from the centre. If Borix and Farage can see the prospect of years of complete power, they won't have any scruples about working together.
Such a deal - which I do not expect - would be likely to affect the entitlement of each party to PPBs during the campaign and overall coverage by the broadcasters.
To change the mood a little (no, I've not been posing down the pub) a quick look at the latest European polls.
Invymark in Spain has PSOE roaring ahead, up 7 points since the election and with a whopping 21 point advantage over PP, Citizens and UP (Podemos as was) who have all slipped back a little.
With the Greek election two weeks away, the latest Metron Analysis poll shows the centre-right New Democracy still 8 points of the incumbent Syriza Government and it really does look as though there will be a change in Athens.
The latest Swedish poll has the Social Democrats four points of the Swedish Democrats with the Moderates a further three points back so not much change.
Finally for now another country going to the polls this year is Portugal which votes on October 6th. The latest Aximage poll shows the ruling Socialists 13 points ahead of the Social Democrats who got most votes and seats in the 2015 poll before being toppled by a centre-left majority vote a few days after the Assembly met after the election.
The new coalition still holds a considerable advantage and you'd think Prime Minister Antonio Costs will remain in office after the autumn poll.
I see the Nits are starting to get very "active" on pb.com again.
A couple of half-decent polls driven by loaded questions and they get all excited.
It's like adding warm water and some sugar to a jar of yeast.
Away you deluded halfwit it is only TUD and myself and we have never been away. We enjoy you frothers spouting rubbish too much. PS better a Nit than a nut
Does Stuart Dickson not count?
Also, it's not just the number: it's the volume. And it's been turned up from about 3 to 8 over the last few days, having more or less been inaudible up to the Euros.
to be fair Stuart has reappeared but not aware of anybody else. TUD and I are lonely soldiers in a far away place.
Yes, and I am glad to have another SNP poster lobbing turnips South. While in the days of Sindyref, I was glad that the Scots voted to stay, I would agree that Brexit breaches the covenant that was made at the time. Sindyref 2 is needed.
OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?
It's the classic distraction technique when the facts can't really be disputed. Sadly it's what passes for argument these days.
There's no facts to dispute here. Bannon claims he was advising Boris - Boris categorically denies it. Both were in public domain over a year ago. Now we have a video of Bannon repeating claims he made and were denied last year. What's news here? Boris denied it then and denies it now and still all we have for Bannon's supposed involvement is Bannon claiming he was involved.
No facts.
So we are all support to just accept the word of a proven liar and forget about it? I'm sure Johnson would love it to be that simple but it's not. Trump gets away with it because either his core don't care or are too thick to know he's lying. Fortunately we haven't quite reached that stage here yet but I am expecting Johnson to be testing the boundaries.
No I'm precisely suggesting you don't just accept the word of a proven liar (Bannon). Unless Bannon has any evidence of his supposed involvement which has been denied then there doesn't seem to be any evidence for his assertions at all.
OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?
It's the classic distraction technique when the facts can't really be disputed. Sadly it's what passes for argument these days.
There's no facts to dispute here. Bannon claims he was advising Boris - Boris categorically denies it. Both were in public domain over a year ago. Now we have a video of Bannon repeating claims he made and were denied last year. What's news here? Boris denied it then and denies it now and still all we have for Bannon's supposed involvement is Bannon claiming he was involved.
No facts.
So we are all support to just accept the word of a proven liar and forget about it? I'm sure Johnson would love it to be that simple but it's not. Trump gets away with it because either his core don't care or are too thick to know he's lying. Fortunately we haven't quite reached that stage here yet but I am expecting Johnson to be testing the boundaries.
No I'm precisely suggesting you don't just accept the word of a proven liar (Bannon). Unless Bannon has any evidence of his supposed involvement which has been denied then there doesn't seem to be any evidence for his assertions at all.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
No I'm precisely suggesting you don't just accept the word of a proven liar (Bannon). Unless Bannon has any evidence of his supposed involvement which has been denied then there doesn't seem to be any evidence for his assertions at all.
Ummmm...
What has Bannon proveably lied about?
(Other than the genetic superiority of white people of non Jewish origin)
OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?
It's the classic distraction technique when the facts can't really be disputed. Sadly it's what passes for argument these days.
There's no facts to dispute here. Bannon claims he was advising Boris - Boris categorically denies it. Both were in public domain over a year ago. Now we have a video of Bannon repeating claims he made and were denied last year. What's news here? Boris denied it then and denies it now and still all we have for Bannon's supposed involvement is Bannon claiming he was involved.
No facts.
So we are all support to just accept the word of a proven liar and forget about it? I'm sure Johnson would love it to be that simple but it's not. Trump gets away with it because either his core don't care or are too thick to know he's lying. Fortunately we haven't quite reached that stage here yet but I am expecting Johnson to be testing the boundaries.
No I'm precisely suggesting you don't just accept the word of a proven liar (Bannon). Unless Bannon has any evidence of his supposed involvement which has been denied then there doesn't seem to be any evidence for his assertions at all.
Are you saying Boris is not a proven liar?
"I have not had an affair with Petronella. It is complete balderdash. It is an inverted pyramid of piffle. It is all completely untrue and ludicrous conjecture. I am amazed people can write this drivel."
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
4m people/12% of the electorate wanted out of the EU and had previously been effectively disenfranchised.
UKIP was a supremely successful pressure group and achieved their aim of a referendum. Perfectly democratic.
Had Labour won in 2015 it would have showed that not enough people wanted a referendum. But people voted for a party promising one.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
The ultimate retoxification. All that work by Cameron to detoxify the Tories with the young, the Scots, and the public sector to win the first Tory majority in 25 years. Will it be 25 years for memories of the Brexit fiasco to fade before there is another Tory majority? Or is the toxin fatal this time?
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
The ultimate retoxification. All that work by Cameron to detoxify the Tories with the young, the Scots, and the public sector to win the first Tory majority in 25 years. Will it be 25 years for memories of the Brexit fiasco to fade before there is another Tory majority? Or is the toxin fatal this time?
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
17.4 million voted for it and that was from across the political divide as evidenced by Corbyn wanting brexit for his own purposes
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
I fear you are merely muffling and veiling your language! Tell us what you really think!
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
Once again people blaming anyone except their own side...
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
I agree, Mrs Foxy gets quite vitrolic on the subject of Corbyns attitude to Brexit.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
Once again people blaming anyone except their own side...
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
The people with something to answer for are you, me, and the rest of the electorate.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
I think things get very murky indeed if we try to second-guess the outcome of an election in an active four-party environment.
Very murky - and just incredibly fascinating. An election with 4 parties in the 18 to 25 range. How that ends up playing out as seats in our FPTP system. That will be a political geeks paradise. I so want to see that. Cmon Boris don't bottle it.
Indeed and you can probably rip up Baxter and most other forecasting tools.
Take East Ham (please!). In 2017 Timms scraped home with 83% of the vote and the Conservatives got just shy of 13% so the Labour majority was 40,000 (as much as makes no difference).
In the 2019 EU elections, Labour got 51% in Newham, the LDs 14%, Brexit 12%, Greens 8% and Conservatives 6%.
Okay, the halving of the Conservative vote percentage is about the same as the national numbers. The swing from Labour to Liberal Democrat was 22.5% (not too shabby). On this morning's Survation number the national swing is 12.75% (still okay). TBP cones in with 12% but their number has eased back by about a quarter since the EU elections.
So I'd predict, were East Ham to vote today, Labour would get 60%, LDs 12%, Brexit 9%, Greens 8%, Conservatives 7%, others 4% leaving, on a 2017 turnout Timms with a majority of 27,000 so still pretty safe.
I think Labour have many more of these seats with gargantuan majorities than the Tories do.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
The people with something to answer for are you, me, and the rest of the electorate.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
Without doubt, they will cause turmoil on the liberal/left end of the political spectrum, just as UKIP did at the other end of the spectrum.
I think things get very murky indeed if we try to second-guess the outcome of an election in an active four-party environment.
Very murky - and just incredibly fascinating. An election with 4 parties in the 18 to 25 range. How that ends up playing out as seats in our FPTP system. That will be a political geeks paradise. I so want to see that. Cmon Boris don't bottle it.
Indeed and you can probably rip up Baxter and most other forecasting tools.
Take East Ham (please!). In 2017 Timms scraped home with 83% of the vote and the Conservatives got just shy of 13% so the Labour majority was 40,000 (as much as makes no difference).
In the 2019 EU elections, Labour got 51% in Newham, the LDs 14%, Brexit 12%, Greens 8% and Conservatives 6%.
Okay, the halving of the Conservative vote percentage is about the same as the national numbers. The swing from Labour to Liberal Democrat was 22.5% (not too shabby). On this morning's Survation number the national swing is 12.75% (still okay). TBP cones in with 12% but their number has eased back by about a quarter since the EU elections.
So I'd predict, were East Ham to vote today, Labour would get 60%, LDs 12%, Brexit 9%, Greens 8%, Conservatives 7%, others 4% leaving, on a 2017 turnout Timms with a majority of 27,000 so still pretty safe.
I think Labour have many more of these seats with gargantuan majorities than the Tories do.
You don't really want humungous majorities under First Past the Post.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And more than 10% of the population are convinced that the EU is a hostile power against which they need to fight for their freedom.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
Corbyn campaigned more than any other Labour MP, grow up and blame your own side rather than others for failing to stop you.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
More than 10% of the population are committed Leavers. Remaining is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months
OT Presumably Tim Shipman will be forced* to extend his All Out War series to at least four books now; the period from the end of Fall Out to May's resignation is surely more than enough for a door-stop in its own right.
The big question is whether a fourth book starting with the Tory leadership election will be able to cover the Brexit denouement. I doubt it somehow.
Shoot the messenger you mean. Carole Codswallop is a witness to nothing.
As for the ludicrous video she is touting, it is a onesided video where the egomaniac Bannon claims [emphasis on claims] to be more important than he is recognised for. Something categorically denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon a paragon of virtue or honesty? Or is he an egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar who is not above making stuff up?
Are we supposed to take Bannon's word for it?
...and there's another trope. I pointed this out a few weeks ago: people slap words before or after a term to tilt the argument, eg "clean" Brexit or "technical" recession. You piled in there: not "video" but "ludicrous video", not "Bannon" but "egomaniac Bannon", not "liar" but (deep breath) "egomaniacal self-publicising pathological liar". I think "weasel words" is the term for this, tho' no doubt somebody will correct me or suggest a better one.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
No weasel words is the wrong term. A weasel word is deliberately ambiguous. My words couldn't be less ambiguous. I think the correct word is perhaps adverb? I am not an English teacher.
Damn, I thought "weasel words" was the right phrase. OK, PB Brains Trust. What are is the phrase for the trope whereby words are adjoined to a term to make that term seem more/less attractive? The examples are "clean" Brexit, "technical" recession, or "ludicrous" video, tho' there are others.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
Im afraid this is correct.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
And it would have failed if Corbyn had backed a referendum and campaigned to remain from day 1.
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
Corbyn campaigned more than any other Labour MP, grow up and blame your own side rather than others for failing to stop you.
In fairness to Corbyn, I've never thought he owed any obligation to anyone to campaign hard for Remain. Labour members cannot have been unaware of his voting record when they elected him.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And more than 10% of the population are convinced that the EU is a hostile power against which they need to fight for their freedom.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And, more than 20% of the population are committed No Dealers.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
And more than 10% of the population are convinced that the EU is a hostile power against which they need to fight for their freedom.
So how do we resolve this?
Defeat them.
Sadly, that seems to be the choice. Either you must lose, or I must lose.
Is it me or is the discourse getting more depressing and divisive day by day, both on here, and in the Country with not an end in sight
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
Your lot started it. It’s your monkey.
Excuse me. Everyone is as bad as everyone else and your remark just makes my point. Childish
No. Brexit was not a salient issue until Cameron made it one by arrogantly calling a referendum he thought he couldn’t lose. Now it defines UK politics in the same way that the relationship with the UK defines Northern Ireland politics. We are in thrall to a larger and more powerful neighbour.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
It became a salient issue once enough of the voters decided that it was a salient issue.
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
More than 10% of the population are committed Remainers. Brexit is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.
More than 10% of the population are committed Leavers. Remaining is unsustainable, no matter what happens in the next 6 months
Now what?
Playing a constructive role in European integration is a viable national strategy for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. A British nationalism that seeks to disconnect us from the rest of Europe is not. However long it takes to get resolved, there can only be one ending.
One might imagine that the difficulties that have beset the withdrawal process would have had an impact on support for the principle of remaining or leaving the EU in the first place. But of that there is remarkably little evidence. Our poll of polls of how people would vote in another referendum continues to report that the country is more or less evenly divided between Remain and Leave, much as it was three years ago.
I see that the Boris night-time kerfuffle was actually reported by no fewer than three sets of neighbours, including people just passing by, who - from the uproar - thought someone was being murdered.
Damn these nosy neighbours and remoaners. It's all their fault.
That's your London snowflake liberal tossers for you, shop a neighbour will be on TV soon
What I'm more intrigued by is that this all happened in the early hours of Friday morning. Why weren't they all in bed asleep? Not once have I read "I was woken by an almighty argument, etc."
No idea, but this is bringing out the most fascinating prejudices among commentators here. malcolm frinstance is subconsciously mapping "normal for Dundee" onto "normal for South London."
Never been to Dundee in my life but spent plenty of time in London so hard to map it I am afraid. I certainly would not be taping my neighbours and giving it to the media, unknown in Scotland I bet. I would call police if I thought any violence ensued. Pretty sordid taping it and sending to newspapers though, sign of lack of moral fibre and in my mind encapsulates what is happening in England. Place is falling apart.
A few years ago we lived below a couple with a couple of primary school aged kids here in Scotland. Every so often the bloke would shout angrily. One day he was yelling and there were a few very loud bangs which sounded like someone dropping heavy objects on to the floor above us, the kids were crying and being told by the woman to stay away from him. This row lasted for a few minutes.
My wife suggested I call the police. No thanks because 1) I guessed the police would consider us more shady than the neighbours (not being Scottish, but also in my case being a scruffy bloke gambling for a living at home); 2) I didn't want to fall out with the neighbours.
Some weeks later my wife spotted a policeman in the driveway and asked me to investigate. I crawled to the windowsill (we weren't on the ground floor). Nothing to worry about dear....it appears the bloke upstairs is a copper. It turned out he was in the military police and worked at one of the Trident bases.
Comments
I think this analogy is now at breaking point!
Did you know I am a secretly Jeremy Corbyn's most trusted advisor?
I've just said it so you must believe it surely? Nobody would make up something that isn't true.
No facts.
So. Let's strip your point of the weasel words and look at it calmly.
"...As for the video, it is a video where Bannon claims to be more important than he is recognised for. Something denied by Johnson. Now is Bannon lying?.."
I don't know. You might be right, you might not. But in order to get to this point, we had to get you off repeatedly attacking Cadwalladr and strip out the weasel words for your statement . And the fact that I had to do that was my point: people don't examine the point any more, they just attack the witness.
Bannon has in past claimed there were links.
Boris has in past denied that.
Here is evidence of Bannon claiming there were links. All we have is Bannon's word for it - which is exactly what we had before this video surfaced.
On that point, it's pretty obvious that Bannon and Johnson are both proven liars, so who knows if they had dealings with each other. Bannon strikes me as the guy that comes up to you at a party for 20 minutes and then claims credit for everything that happens afterward.
A couple of half-decent polls driven by loaded questions and they get all excited.
It's like adding warm water and some sugar to a jar of yeast.
To remind you, this was the exact question I asked:
"OK, I give up. This approach (attack the witness) has been used three times in the past few days. It's gone way beyond ad hominem, people aren't even bothering to check whether something is true or not, it's just attack the witness, every time. Is there a word for this phenomenon? I've though of "non-person", "discredited is not a synonym for wrong", or "play the man not the ball", but they don't capture the flavour of "the truth doesn't count, only the affiliation of the witness does". I was going for "only our tribe counts" but can anybody think of something more catchy?"
PS better a Nit than a nut
https://twitter.com/MichaelSctMoore/status/1142514916961599488?s=19
Also, it's not just the number: it's the volume. And it's been turned up from about 3 to 8 over the last few days, having more or less been inaudible up to the Euros.
https://twitter.com/alvarombedoya/status/1141940694149423104?s=21
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41817068
Possibility one: Scotland's economy is creating more jobs than England & Wales. Ha! Look, we're doing so much better than you. This is proof that we don't need you, and would be better off independent.
Possibility two: Scotland's economy is creating fewer jobs than England & Wales. English scum are stealing our jobs. This is proof we would be better off independent.
In general, I would say it was an extreme form of confirmation bias, because it involves deciding the answer before the facts have been communicated basis on what you already know (or think you know)
"People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations)."
The unelected WTO have been holding Britain back for too long in league with the Cosmopolitan Elite. If we have to we'll leave the WTO without a deal that'll show them!
I do wonder just how long this painful environment is going to go on with no one acting as a peacemaker.
Maybe we need a GE or a referendum to break the Gordian knot but even that is uncertain.
Time to turn attention to the joys of our grandchildren and step back from the constant and unsettling problems with our Country
(I happened to see SeanT saying something nice about me in passing and a few weeks later, on a whim, posted on the PB anniversary thread, to say a few words as one of the very earliest regulars around here. I was amazed to find the comment published and that I was no longer blocked, after several years. No warm water or sugar involved.)
I'd like to think I wouldn't go to the media about it though - unless there was another factor (e.g. I felt it was a serious incident but the police had done nothing, and therefore I feared someone might be in danger. That's not the case here.)
There is a bigger issue here though. One of the reasons I'd hesitate to go to the media where someone famous is involved is that I'm well aware I might end up having my name dragged through the mud by his/her 'supporters'.
When it comes to politics, that's not quite healthy.
I like you Malc, you know that, and you also know I love the UK and Scotland as a part of it too so I hope we don't fall out too much over it.
So do you think Boris didn't answer Iain Dale's questions (yes this was a conservative party event) because what happened was
1. Private
2. Nothing happened. The police said so
3. Because he know whats on the tape and can't lie again
It's not quite right admittedly, but I think it sort of gets the idea you are attacking the wrong thing, which whilst linked to the undesirable result, is not at fault.
And Sturgeon stands for a welcoming country , tolerant who actually cares about people .
Since the 2016 ref result she’s stood out and wipes the floor with politicians south of the border.
I think she’s great and wish all Scots well if they decide to go their own way .
To change the mood a little (no, I've not been posing down the pub) a quick look at the latest European polls.
Invymark in Spain has PSOE roaring ahead, up 7 points since the election and with a whopping 21 point advantage over PP, Citizens and UP (Podemos as was) who have all slipped back a little.
With the Greek election two weeks away, the latest Metron Analysis poll shows the centre-right New Democracy still 8 points of the incumbent Syriza Government and it really does look as though there will be a change in Athens.
The latest Swedish poll has the Social Democrats four points of the Swedish Democrats with the Moderates a further three points back so not much change.
Finally for now another country going to the polls this year is Portugal which votes on October 6th. The latest Aximage poll shows the ruling Socialists 13 points ahead of the Social Democrats who got most votes and seats in the 2015 poll before being toppled by a centre-left majority vote a few days after the Assembly met after the election.
The new coalition still holds a considerable advantage and you'd think Prime Minister Antonio Costs will remain in office after the autumn poll.
I've been to a couple of Tory Conferences where I have been literally spat at, screamed at by protestors and called all sorts of names under the sun.
With the now-Shadow Chancellor then encouraging it all.
So no I'm not sure if its getting worse, its always been bad. But it certainly wasn't our lot that started it.
This dreadful condition has been imposed upon us because of the long-held obsessions of one wing of the Tory party, indulged by a weak Prime Minister. Your party will rightly be held responsible and will never be forgiven.
The Conservative Party will long be tarnished by this scandalous malfeasance.
What has Bannon proveably lied about?
(Other than the genetic superiority of white people of non Jewish origin)
UKIP was a supremely successful pressure group and achieved their aim of a referendum. Perfectly democratic.
Had Labour won in 2015 it would have showed that not enough people wanted a referendum. But people voted for a party promising one.
However, a resolution is needed by either a GE or a referendum but we also need grown ups working to a solution, not childish name calling
Corbyn has as much to answer for as the brexiteers
Once 10% of population start voting on a single issue, they can start throwing a system based on First Past the Post into turmoil, even without winning a single seat, because they force other parties to move towards their position.
(Yes, I know he's a scumbag. But that's a different question.)
Clean is surely an adjective?
So how do we resolve this?
Now what?
The big question is whether a fourth book starting with the Tory leadership election will be able to cover the Brexit denouement. I doubt it somehow.
(*I am sure his accountant will be delighted)
There are no absolute victories on offer here.
https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/1142696866045464576?s=20
My wife suggested I call the police. No thanks because 1) I guessed the police would consider us more shady than the neighbours (not being Scottish, but also in my case being a scruffy bloke gambling for a living at home); 2) I didn't want to fall out with the neighbours.
Some weeks later my wife spotted a policeman in the driveway and asked me to investigate. I crawled to the windowsill (we weren't on the ground floor). Nothing to worry about dear....it appears the bloke upstairs is a copper. It turned out he was in the military police and worked at one of the Trident bases.