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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The voters are beginning to see that Boris Johnson is not the

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Be careful of chasing the markets.

    The only views that matter will be those of Tory party members, most of whom will cast their votes in the next 3 weeks.

    Thanks.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Three years. Hats off to the Remainers really, who would have thought they could filibuster for thirty six months?


    Like all revolutions Brexit was brought low by its own radicals. It woz the ERG wot dun it.
    The numbers say no. If the ERG had all voted for Mays Deal, it still wouldn’t have passed.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Scott_P said:

    Johnson is facing five plots to derail his premiership before it has even started:

    ● Tory MPs plan to write to May saying they will not vote for Johnson in a motion of no confidence, making it difficult for her to recommend that the Queen invites him to form a government because he will not be able to command a majority in the House of Commons.

    ● Dominic Grieve, the former attorney- general, yesterday confirmed that even if this does not work, a sizeable group of Tory MPs is prepared to vote with Labour to bring down the government if Johnson persists with his plan to leave the EU by October 31 come what may. He said another Tory could be summoned to the palace instead.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mps-plotting-to-make-boris-pm-for-just-one-day-br03hdsv9

    As outlined here on PB by some of us for weeks now.
    The real betting opportunity here is looking at who that other Tory might be. Someone non-controversial or active in warning against No Deal.

    I'd be looking at keeping Tory candidates on the next PM market on side like Philip Hammond, David Lidington or even Ken Clarke. If you want real GoT psycho-drama, Jo Johnson. A Labour equivalent might be someone respected like Hilary Benn.

    Some are still available in the 1000s, like those who aren't even MPs such as David Cameron, which is remarkable.
    As a Hammond backer, I'd be pleased, but the time for this strategem has passed. The Cabinet needed to arrange a coronation before May's resignation triggered the contest. It is too late now because if Grieve has a handful of never-Boris MPs, then Boris has a damn sight more never-Grieve/whoever MPs.

    Boris (or Hunt) will be PM before Grieve and others can try to oust him. The betting markets now are on next PM after Theresa May, not on who will be PM after Boris breaks the shortest tenure record.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Good article in The Economist:

    Prejudice over Brexit is now as strong as that over race. And, perhaps surprisingly, it is the side that talks most about “openness” that is least open to mixing with the other lot. A YouGov/Times poll in January found that whereas only 9% of Leavers would mind if a close relative married a strong Remainer, 37% of Remainers would be bothered if their nearest and dearest hooked up with a Brexiteer. Remainers were also more likely to live in a bubble. Some 62% said all or most of their friends voted the same way, whereas only 51% of Leavers did.

    https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/06/20/how-brexit-made-britain-a-country-of-remainers-and-leavers?fsrc=scn/tw/te/rfd/pe

    That doesn't make 'Leavers' more tolerant people. Being a Leaver in itself shows you to be intolerant and almost certainly a xenophobe. Of course Remainers wouldn't want their nearest and dearest to hook up with an inward looking xenophobe who is more than likely a racist to boot
    Wow, talk about demonstrating the exact point you are trying to refute.
    I think Hunt can hold his head very high if he can get it to 60 40 to Boris or below.
    Absolutely. It also means Johnson starts his tenure with a credible alternative figure on hand.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    As I said yesterday, something is wrong with Boris. Where is the mojo?

    Hes nervous as hes so massively the frontrunner and knows the job is harder than he is saying. I think its as simple as that.
    He also appears to have picked a cabal of ignorant cockwombles to run his campaign.
    Are you implying Gavin Williamson is not the master strategist we understand him to be?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    isam said:

    On tinder you get a lot of people saying ‘if you voted Brexit or Trump, swipe left’ but I never saw one saying ‘no lefties/remainers’

    Leavers will shag anything.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    edited June 2019
    Killer question from Sophie Ridge to Nicola Sturgeon - "who are you supporting in the football now Scotland are out?"
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Scott_P said:
    Why does Scotland want a third runway?

    Well, first they supported it:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/10/heathrow-third-runway-expansion-scottish-government

    Then they abstained. Now they're having a think.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871

    Actually, on a separate point does anyone else share my view that the Fixed Term Parliament Act has been a massive cock-up?

    Definitely not, it's working great.

    The main thing it's doing right now if it's doing anything is preventing the PM from pulling shenanigans on parliament where they do something that there isn't a parliamentary majority for by preventing parliament from having a chance to vote against it. This would be an obvious abuse of the procedure, and it's good that this loophole is closed.

    I know some people have been saying that without the FTPA the WA would have passed or TMay's government fallen because TMay would have made the WA a matter of confidence, but I think this is pretty obviously wrong: The DUP would have voted against her if she'd tried it, and she'd have known that, so she wouldn't have tried it.
    Agreed. People seem to blame mps pissimg about on the act when that is still their choice and is not forced on them by the act.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    OllyT said:

    A lot of hot air. Boris will win regardless of what he does because the Tory selectorate are prepared to sacrifice the economy the Union and the party to secure thebrexit. They no longer have any idea what thebrexit actually is, does, or delivers, but they voted for it and they are going to have it.

    Boris has pledged to leave on Halloween. So he will win. It does not matter that he has no plan as to how he will do that - not to a selectorate who don't care. They know we can leave with no deal. That will do. So no explanation is needed and frankly Hunt will make hi self look like a fool if he starts trying to distract and obstruct by asking how.

    Boris. A snap election. No deal.

    The Tory electorate don't care about the consequences of No Deal because they are largely too old/too well off. In short they don't expect to be personally inconvenienced by it
    More that they do not understand the consequences, and who can blame them when the case is made in terms of posh 20-somethings needing to queue when backpacking round Europe. FFS Remainers, get your bloody act together.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    To add to all the chaos over Brexit and Boris, it is reported today that Corbyn and his cabal are considering levying capital gains tax on all sales of private homes

    What have we all done to deserve this abject failure of our politicians

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    edited June 2019
    "My friends, as I have discovered myself, there are no disasters, only opportunities. And, indeed, opportunities for fresh disasters." :)
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    To add to all the chaos over Brexit and Boris, it is reported today that Corbyn and his cabal are considering levying capital gains tax on all sales of private homes

    What have we all done to deserve this abject failure of our politicians

    Could be a very popular policy indeed with generation rent.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,707
    edited June 2019
    isam said:


    The numbers say no. If the ERG had all voted for Mays Deal, it still wouldn’t have passed.

    The numbers don't tell you everything, though. If the Leave side had been solid in support of the WA then Labour leavers would have voted for it too. They wouldn't have needed many to make up for the missing DUP votes. Once the Leavers started running against it they turned the offer to these MPs into "vote for the Brexit we wanted, get accused of betraying your party, and we'll accuse you of treason for good measure", which understandably most of them ended up not taking.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    isam said:

    Three years. Hats off to the Remainers really, who would have thought they could filibuster for thirty six months?


    I remember saying the morning after the referendum they'll never actually let us leave... And so it has transpired.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    As I said yesterday, something is wrong with Boris. Where is the mojo?

    Hes nervous as hes so massively the frontrunner and knows the job is harder than he is saying. I think its as simple as that.
    He also appears to have picked a cabal of ignorant cockwombles to run his campaign.
    Are you implying Gavin Williamson is not the master strategist we understand him to be?
    He might have been very good for stage 1 but we shall see if he is any good for stage 2.

    And ultimately the problem is winning the contest doesnt erase the problems they face getting or passing a deal or getting no deal and the only strategy for that appears to be 'we will need a GE but for now we will lie about that being necessary, and pretend it is a potential only'.

    Not that Hunt has a plan that I've heard. His being not Boris will see him praised as having qualities by default that me may not have .
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    tlg86 said:

    Killer question from Sophie Ridge to Nicola Sturgeon - "who are you supporting in the football now Scotland are out?"

    Killer question in what way? Football fans don't transfer allegiances in the way the question supposes. Who do you support in the FA Cup or Champions League or any match when your own team is not involved? The answer is no-one -- except perhaps when a local rival is playing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:

    Three years. Hats off to the Remainers really, who would have thought they could filibuster for thirty six months?


    I remember saying the morning after the referendum they'll never actually let us leave... And so it has transpired.
    I know several people, including some who had never voted before, who said the same thing.

    And while reluctant leavers have prevented us from leaving too, turns out such people were essentially right.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:

    Three years. Hats off to the Remainers really, who would have thought they could filibuster for thirty six months?


    I remember saying the morning after the referendum they'll never actually let us leave... And so it has transpired.
    They=the ERG, of course.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    LOL, we want to fund a 3rd runway for London like we want a hole in the head and given Tories hide in the back of blacked out range rovers and never see a member of the public one can only imagine the well wishers are the 13 brown noser MPs and the Colonel
    +1 - given a choice between flying via London or via Schiphol give me Schiphol any day...
    Terminal 5 is superb for British Airways business.
    Went through it the other day with someone who regularly uses Changi - they reckoned it was better than that - if a bit crowded.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:


    The numbers say no. If the ERG had all voted for Mays Deal, it still wouldn’t have passed.

    The numbers don't tell you everything, though. If the Leave side had been solid in support of the WA then Labour leavers would have voted for it too. They wouldn't have needed many to make up for the missing DUP votes. Once the Leavers started running against it they turned the offer to these MPs into "vote for the Brexit we wanted, get accused of betraying your party, and we'll accuse you of treason for good measure", which understandably most of them ended up not taking.
    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    GIN1138 said:

    Boris may have "stuck up for them" but Brown and Labour bailed them out! ;)

    And I would have thought the money meant rather more to them than warm words from Boris Johnson.

    But still, "Nobody stuck up for the bankers like me," in response to the charge that he prioritizes Brxit over business - what a plonker!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    LOL, we want to fund a 3rd runway for London like we want a hole in the head and given Tories hide in the back of blacked out range rovers and never see a member of the public one can only imagine the well wishers are the 13 brown noser MPs and the Colonel
    +1 - given a choice between flying via London or via Schiphol give me Schiphol any day...
    Terminal 4 at Heathrow, yes. Terminal 5 at Heathrow, absolutely not.

    And I can get there in 45 minutes from where I live.

    Terminal 5 is superb for British Airways business.
    It takes half a day to get there from Scotland though so why any idiot would think we would want another runway is not right in the tattie.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    tlg86 said:

    Killer question from Sophie Ridge to Nicola Sturgeon - "who are you supporting in the football now Scotland are out?"

    You are Norman Tebbit and I claim my 10 shillings
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    isam said:

    Three years. Hats off to the Remainers really, who would have thought they could filibuster for thirty six months?


    If Leavers had come up with a plan to leave that fulfilled the promises made during the campaign we would have left by now. They haven't, because their campaign was pure lies.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Scott_P said:

    Johnson is facing five plots to derail his premiership before it has even started:

    ● Tory MPs plan to write to May saying they will not vote for Johnson in a motion of no confidence, making it difficult for her to recommend that the Queen invites him to form a government because he will not be able to command a majority in the House of Commons.

    ● Dominic Grieve, the former attorney- general, yesterday confirmed that even if this does not work, a sizeable group of Tory MPs is prepared to vote with Labour to bring down the government if Johnson persists with his plan to leave the EU by October 31 come what may. He said another Tory could be summoned to the palace instead.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mps-plotting-to-make-boris-pm-for-just-one-day-br03hdsv9

    I though Dominic Grieve lost a local party no-confidence vote. Has he just decided to ignore that vote now as well as the referendum?
    The brains trust that forms the membership of both our main parties has failed to understand that when you deselect someone you lose your leverage over them. What’s he got to lose? If this parliament lasts, as it could, for another three years Grieve can do what he wants in that time and then go back to the Bar.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    As I said yesterday, something is wrong with Boris. Where is the mojo?

    Hes nervous as hes so massively the frontrunner and knows the job is harder than he is saying. I think its as simple as that.
    He also appears to have picked a cabal of ignorant cockwombles to run his campaign.
    Are you implying Gavin Williamson is not the master strategist we understand him to be?
    He might have been very good for stage 1 but we shall see if he is any good for stage 2.

    And ultimately the problem is winning the contest doesnt erase the problems they face getting or passing a deal or getting no deal and the only strategy for that appears to be 'we will need a GE but for now we will lie about that being necessary, and pretend it is a potential only'.

    Not that Hunt has a plan that I've heard. His being not Boris will see him praised as having qualities by default that me may not have .
    Cons to win a GE anytime soon is for the birds. Their best hope is delivery and achieve Brexit and run the country well until 2022.

    But they picked a dolt and a bore to be leader. Neither can win a GE this year.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:

    Three years. Hats off to the Remainers really, who would have thought they could filibuster for thirty six months?


    I remember saying the morning after the referendum they'll never actually let us leave... And so it has transpired.
    Let’s just hope it ends with the logical conclusion of PM Farage
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    To add to all the chaos over Brexit and Boris, it is reported today that Corbyn and his cabal are considering levying capital gains tax on all sales of private homes

    What have we all done to deserve this abject failure of our politicians

    Could be a very popular policy indeed with generation rent.
    Is this from the same report that is not party policy the Tory press has been scaremongering about for weeks? Considering -- that's a good word.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    isam said:

    Three years. Hats off to the Remainers really, who would have thought they could filibuster for thirty six months?


    If Leavers had come up with a plan to leave that fulfilled the promises made during the campaign we would have left by now. They haven't, because their campaign was pure lies.
    It wasn't 'pure lies'. It was utterly incoherent, jumbled and contradictory, however.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Good interview on Radio Scotland this morning with David Milliband. Came across very well and sounded just like the kind of sensible , thoughtful politician we needed rather than the bunch of dross we currently have. That banana and his brother have a lot to answer for.

    If he could not beat his brother under the system they had then theres no reason to think the signs he might have been ok would prove true. If you cannot get past the first hurdle it's not impressive to describe how well youd make it over the other hurdles.
    Very true, was just musing on how sensible he sounded compared to our current crop of rubbish.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Three years. Hats off to the Remainers really, who would have thought they could filibuster for thirty six months?


    If Leavers had come up with a plan to leave that fulfilled the promises made during the campaign we would have left by now. They haven't, because their campaign was pure lies.
    Not at all. A Remainer came up with a plan that the Remain majority HofC wouldn’t pass. That’s all there is to it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    LOL, we want to fund a 3rd runway for London like we want a hole in the head and given Tories hide in the back of blacked out range rovers and never see a member of the public one can only imagine the well wishers are the 13 brown noser MPs and the Colonel
    +1 - given a choice between flying via London or via Schiphol give me Schiphol any day...
    The Schiphol airport with six runways - that one?
    You missed the bit that it is not a sh*****le
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    OllyT said:

    A lot of hot air. Boris will win regardless of what he does because the Tory selectorate are prepared to sacrifice the economy the Union and the party to secure thebrexit. They no longer have any idea what thebrexit actually is, does, or delivers, but they voted for it and they are going to have it.

    Boris has pledged to leave on Halloween. So he will win. It does not matter that he has no plan as to how he will do that - not to a selectorate who don't care. They know we can leave with no deal. That will do. So no explanation is needed and frankly Hunt will make hi self look like a fool if he starts trying to distract and obstruct by asking how.

    Boris. A snap election. No deal.

    The Tory electorate don't care about the consequences of No Deal because they are largely too old/too well off. In short they don't expect to be personally inconvenienced by it
    More that they do not understand the consequences, and who can blame them when the case is made in terms of posh 20-somethings needing to queue when backpacking round Europe. FFS Remainers, get your bloody act together.
    It’s unfair I think to say older people don’t care about the impact it’s just that even when they say it’s worth the price to get brexit they don’t believe there will be any problems apart from minor disruptions. After all their main source of news, their preferred press, and increasingly their self constructed internet bubble, tell them all is fine.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    As I said yesterday, something is wrong with Boris. Where is the mojo?

    Hes nervous as hes so massively the frontrunner and knows the job is harder than he is saying. I think its as simple as that.
    He also appears to have picked a cabal of ignorant cockwombles to run his campaign.
    Are you implying Gavin Williamson is not the master strategist we understand him to be?
    He might have been very good for stage 1 but we shall see if he is any good for stage 2.

    And ultimately the problem is winning the contest doesnt erase the problems they face getting or passing a deal or getting no deal and the only strategy for that appears to be 'we will need a GE but for now we will lie about that being necessary, and pretend it is a potential only'.

    Not that Hunt has a plan that I've heard. His being not Boris will see him praised as having qualities by default that me may not have .
    Cons to win a GE anytime soon is for the birds. Their best hope is delivery and achieve Brexit and run the country well until 2022.
    Agreed. The WA was not loved by many of them, and the DUP would have been an issue, but getting out and then spending years rebuilding would have given them a shot.

    Instead they wanted it to be perfect, and are now panicking like mad, and might not get Brexit or the government.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    As I said yesterday, something is wrong with Boris. Where is the mojo?

    Hes nervous as hes so massively the frontrunner and knows the job is harder than he is saying. I think its as simple as that.
    He also appears to have picked a cabal of ignorant cockwombles to run his campaign.
    Are you implying Gavin Williamson is not the master strategist we understand him to be?
    Apparently Bozza is being chaperoned by James "Where's" Wharton, a tactician so astute that in 2017 he opted not to campaign in his safe seat which he promptly lost.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    isam said:

    isam said:


    The numbers say no. If the ERG had all voted for Mays Deal, it still wouldn’t have passed.

    The numbers don't tell you everything, though. If the Leave side had been solid in support of the WA then Labour leavers would have voted for it too. They wouldn't have needed many to make up for the missing DUP votes. Once the Leavers started running against it they turned the offer to these MPs into "vote for the Brexit we wanted, get accused of betraying your party, and we'll accuse you of treason for good measure", which understandably most of them ended up not taking.
    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.
    So are you saying the ERG were justified in opposing the vote to leave the EU?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Scott_P said:
    Why does Scotland want a third runway?
    More capacity for regional airports to feed to main international hub.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695
    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:

    Three years. Hats off to the Remainers really, who would have thought they could filibuster for thirty six months?


    I remember saying the morning after the referendum they'll never actually let us leave... And so it has transpired.
    If 'they'll' is referring to the EU they have done nothing to stop us. We have achieved this stalemate all by ourselves. Or is this referring to our own politicians. I have been of the opinion since the referendum that we will not leave. The attitude that we leave just like we leave a golf club still seems the view of many leavers in the country (not here), even after all this time. We may still leave, we may even leave by accident in a catastrophic way, but I'm still of the view that it will never happen. That may well be wishful thinking on my part however.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:


    The numbers say no. If the ERG had all voted for Mays Deal, it still wouldn’t have passed.

    The numbers don't tell you everything, though. If the Leave side had been solid in support of the WA then Labour leavers would have voted for it too. They wouldn't have needed many to make up for the missing DUP votes. Once the Leavers started running against it they turned the offer to these MPs into "vote for the Brexit we wanted, get accused of betraying your party, and we'll accuse you of treason for good measure", which understandably most of them ended up not taking.
    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.
    So are you saying the ERG were justified in opposing the vote to leave the EU?
    They can do what they like, but the deal didn’t fall because of them.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    tlg86 said:

    Killer question from Sophie Ridge to Nicola Sturgeon - "who are you supporting in the football now Scotland are out?"

    Right answer would be anyone but England, but as a politician she will fudge at best but hopefully not cringe and say England.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited June 2019
    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    LOL, we want to fund a 3rd runway for London like we want a hole in the head and given Tories hide in the back of blacked out range rovers and never see a member of the public one can only imagine the well wishers are the 13 brown noser MPs and the Colonel
    +1 - given a choice between flying via London or via Schiphol give me Schiphol any day...
    The Schiphol airport with six runways - that one?
    You missed the bit that it is not a sh*****le
    Add on

    1) BA have reduced the space between seats to the point you can't work on a BA plane anymore...
    2) BA charge for food for European flights
    3) Flight connections don't work as well...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    alex. said:

    What was the context of this quote? What cunningly dastardly line of questioning led him unsuspectingly into this trap?

    It was an attempt to shore up his 'pro-business' credentials - in the wake of his notorious "FB" remark. It's a line that I predict he will not use in a general election campaign. But Labour will.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Scott_P said:

    Johnson is facing five plots to derail his premiership before it has even started:

    ● Tory MPs plan to write to May saying they will not vote for Johnson in a motion of no confidence, making it difficult for her to recommend that the Queen invites him to form a government because he will not be able to command a majority in the House of Commons.

    ● Dominic Grieve, the former attorney- general, yesterday confirmed that even if this does not work, a sizeable group of Tory MPs is prepared to vote with Labour to bring down the government if Johnson persists with his plan to leave the EU by October 31 come what may. He said another Tory could be summoned to the palace instead.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mps-plotting-to-make-boris-pm-for-just-one-day-br03hdsv9

    I though Dominic Grieve lost a local party no-confidence vote. Has he just decided to ignore that vote now as well as the referendum?
    He was chosen as a candidate by them, but elected by his constituents. If they don’t want him anymore, what influence do they now have on him ?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    isam said:

    isam said:


    The numbers say no. If the ERG had all voted for Mays Deal, it still wouldn’t have passed.

    The numbers don't tell you everything, though. If the Leave side had been solid in support of the WA then Labour leavers would have voted for it too. They wouldn't have needed many to make up for the missing DUP votes. Once the Leavers started running against it they turned the offer to these MPs into "vote for the Brexit we wanted, get accused of betraying your party, and we'll accuse you of treason for good measure", which understandably most of them ended up not taking.
    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.
    That's true enough. Politics is politics but there were multiple votes and if someone thought it was acceptable but refused to back it because of a lack of cover that is far worse than simply disagreeing with it. The Nandy's and co are quite guilty of that.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Scott_P said:
    Why does Scotland want a third runway?
    Who gives a shit what Jim Pickard thinks, nasty bile ridden tweet..
    Your campaign for more pb positivity going well?
    Yes I was pointing out the nasty tone of his tweet, Its just a cheap shot from a journo who has fuck all else to say.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    eristdoof said:



    TBH I don't think it's entirely fair to blame Cameron for the FTPA. IIRC it was part of the LibDem package for the coalition, which also included a fairer voting system and reform of the House of Lords. Cameron shafted Clegg et al over some of the package, but at the time the FTPA seemed like good insurance against such shafting.

    Yes it was a LD policy. In the UK it was a good strategy for a PM who had clearly won most seats but not an overall majority to call an election a few months later to push for a majority government. To put FTs in the coalition agreement would have made it hard for Cameron to break the Coalition early without fending off accisations of being a "promise breaker" and "can't be trusted".

    Remember a LD policy is to make coalition government normal (like in many European countries) and the PM being allowed to call an election with no notice given to the coalition partner is not conducive to coalitions.
    Really? I thought is was Lib Dem policy ("policy"?) to get a Lib Dem government. If we ever get proper electoral reform, coalition government may become inevitable, but coalition government is not an end in itself.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    isam said:

    Three years. Hats off to the Remainers really, who would have thought they could filibuster for thirty six months?


    If Leavers had come up with a plan to leave that fulfilled the promises made during the campaign we would have left by now. They haven't, because their campaign was pure lies.
    It wasn't 'pure lies'. It was utterly incoherent, jumbled and contradictory, however.
    The central problem for the leave campaign was that they promised we could have more political autonomy with no economic cost. Everything that has transpired since then is a result of that, most notably the failure of Brexit to happen.
    FWIW I put that point to Boris Johnson and he said he agreed with me.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    The numbers say no. If the ERG had all voted for Mays Deal, it still wouldn’t have passed.

    The numbers don't tell you everything, though. If the Leave side had been solid in support of the WA then Labour leavers would have voted for it too. They wouldn't have needed many to make up for the missing DUP votes. Once the Leavers started running against it they turned the offer to these MPs into "vote for the Brexit we wanted, get accused of betraying your party, and we'll accuse you of treason for good measure", which understandably most of them ended up not taking.
    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.
    That's true enough. Politics is politics but there were multiple votes and if someone thought it was acceptable but refused to back it because of a lack of cover that is far worse than simply disagreeing with it. The Nandy's and co are quite guilty of that.
    They sure are.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Scott_P said:
    Why does Scotland want a third runway?

    Well, first they supported it:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/10/heathrow-third-runway-expansion-scottish-government

    Then they abstained. Now they're having a think.....
    I am talking about the people , politicians will just just follow what benefits their thinking.
    Only an idiot could think that an extra runway in London , funded with our money , is of any benefit to Scotland. It merely keeps us as serfs having to waste best part of a day going via London.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Killer question from Sophie Ridge to Nicola Sturgeon - "who are you supporting in the football now Scotland are out?"

    Right answer would be anyone but England, but as a politician she will fudge at best but hopefully not cringe and say England.
    People really get so petty they will anti-support another country in supporting events? I thought people only said that as a joke!
  • hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 656
    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Killer question from Sophie Ridge to Nicola Sturgeon - "who are you supporting in the football now Scotland are out?"

    Right answer would be anyone but England, but as a politician she will fudge at best but hopefully not cringe and say England.
    There are still some sad mostly older Scots with chips in both shoulders but luckily the country has moved on fast in the last few years
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why does Scotland want a third runway?
    Who gives a shit what Jim Pickard thinks, nasty bile ridden tweet..
    but very true so suck it up
    and If Hunt had filled the pic with his acolytes he would be accused of doing just that, so its a no win situation.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    At the risk of inviting an obvious two word retort, there really should be less swearing on here.

    It doesn’t look tough or edgy, it looks like nerds trying to look tough and edgy.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,707
    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Scott_P said:
    Yep. It's not the seriousness of otherwise of this incident that matters. It's the glimpse into a possible future.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    I prefer flying from Newcastle to Heathrow T5 than Schiphol to be honest.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2019

    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
    You’ve lost me there. I am talking about Remain supporting MPs who won their seats in 2017 on a pledge to implement Brexit, then voted down Mays deal and pointed at the ERG. If they’d voted for it, the ERG would have been defeated, we’d have left, & moved on.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why does Scotland want a third runway?
    More capacity for regional airports to feed to main international hub.
    More crumbs and wasted time for passengers please London! Time for Scotland to get off its knees and build the infrastructure any normal country has. Why should we have to traipse 400 miles so London can make more money.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    IanB2 said:


    Boris's opening speech is here. It's not too bad, but typically heavy on convoluted vocabulary and light on insight or logic. It does suggest a plan forming in his mind to get Brexit done (somehow) and then pivot to the centre.

    Parliament against a No Deal Brexit.
    Parliament against a Deal Brexit.
    Thus Parliament against Brexit.
    Half of his party think a Deal Brexit is not Brexit.
    Three quarters of the country think a No Deal Brexit would be mad.
    Farage available for Leavers.
    Lab and LD available for Remainers.

    Faced with this, if Johnson can come in as PM and either (i) deliver Brexit (any sort) or (ii) cancel Brexit - and do so without the country falling apart - I will revise my opinion of him completely.

    He will go down as one of the greats. I might even start calling him Boris.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    The numbers say no. If the ERG had all voted for Mays Deal, it still wouldn’t have passed.

    The numbers don't tell you everything, though. If the Leave side had been solid in support of the WA then Labour leavers would have voted for it too. They wouldn't have needed many to make up for the missing DUP votes. Once the Leavers started running against it they turned the offer to these MPs into "vote for the Brexit we wanted, get accused of betraying your party, and we'll accuse you of treason for good measure", which understandably most of them ended up not taking.
    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.
    That's true enough. Politics is politics but there were multiple votes and if someone thought it was acceptable but refused to back it because of a lack of cover that is far worse than simply disagreeing with it. The Nandy's and co are quite guilty of that.
    Labour MPs were elected on a manifesto to implement a particular kind of Brexit. If the government had wanted their votes it should have agreed a compromise between its own policy and the opposition's one. You can't blame Labour for opposing a policy on which they were not consulted and which offered their voters little.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    isam said:

    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
    You’ve lost me there. I am talking about Remain supporting MPs who won their seats in 2017 on a pledge to implement Brexit, then voted down Mays deal and pointed at the ERG. If they’d voted for it, the ERG would have been defeated, we’d have left, & moved on.

    If we had an EFTA/EEA Brexit that appealed to Remainers we would have had already left and moved on. Two can play at this ridiculous game.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why does Scotland want a third runway?
    More capacity for regional airports to feed to main international hub.
    More crumbs and wasted time for passengers please London! Time for Scotland to get off its knees and build the infrastructure any normal country has. Why should we have to traipse 400 miles so London can make more money.
    because of Culloden in 1746...
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    The numbers say no. If the ERG had all voted for Mays Deal, it still wouldn’t have passed.

    The numbers don't tell you everything, though. If the Leave side had been solid in support of the WA then Labour leavers would have voted for it too. They wouldn't have needed many to make up for the missing DUP votes. Once the Leavers started running against it they turned the offer to these MPs into "vote for the Brexit we wanted, get accused of betraying your party, and we'll accuse you of treason for good measure", which understandably most of them ended up not taking.
    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.
    That's true enough. Politics is politics but there were multiple votes and if someone thought it was acceptable but refused to back it because of a lack of cover that is far worse than simply disagreeing with it. The Nandy's and co are quite guilty of that.
    They sure are.
    Recall the time when Michael Gove, sent to reach out to Labour for support for the WA, instead made that barnstorming attack on Jeremy Corbyn. Whether or not this was step 1 in Gove's forthcoming leadership bid, it did not do the government's, or Leave's, cause much good.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    I hope HYUFD is not alone at this difficult time.

    https://twitter.com/SundayTimesSco/status/1142646639057915904

    Sounds like the best argument I've heard in favour of Boris.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited June 2019

    I prefer flying from Newcastle to Heathrow T5 than Schiphol to be honest.

    Depends how often you fly and whether you want to work or not.

    My last 5 BA flights have been so bad my default logic is anyone else (including Bulgaria air where flights are routinely 2 hours late) is better than BA...

    And if you are looking at onward flights via Schiphol will always be quicker overall...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Killer question from Sophie Ridge to Nicola Sturgeon - "who are you supporting in the football now Scotland are out?"

    Right answer would be anyone but England, but as a politician she will fudge at best but hopefully not cringe and say England.
    There are still some sad mostly older Scots with chips in both shoulders but luckily the country has moved on fast in the last few years
    LOL, you are obviously not a football fan. Nothing to do with "chips" as used ad nauseum by stupid Tories waving their union jack and insisting we should support England at sport.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    The numbers say no. If the ERG had all voted for Mays Deal, it still wouldn’t have passed.

    The numbers don't tell you everything, though. If the Leave side had been solid in support of the WA then Labour leavers would have voted for it too. They wouldn't have needed many to make up for the missing DUP votes. Once the Leavers started running against it they turned the offer to these MPs into "vote for the Brexit we wanted, get accused of betraying your party, and we'll accuse you of treason for good measure", which understandably most of them ended up not taking.
    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.
    That's true enough. Politics is politics but there were multiple votes and if someone thought it was acceptable but refused to back it because of a lack of cover that is far worse than simply disagreeing with it. The Nandy's and co are quite guilty of that.
    Labour MPs were elected on a manifesto to implement a particular kind of Brexit. If the government had wanted their votes it should have agreed a compromise between its own policy and the opposition's one. You can't blame Labour for opposing a policy on which they were not consulted and which offered their voters little.
    We are repeatedly told it was the ERGs fault that Labour politicians didn’t vote for Mays deal, and that had they done so, Labour would have too
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    edited June 2019
    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why does Scotland want a third runway?
    More capacity for regional airports to feed to main international hub.
    More crumbs and wasted time for passengers please London! Time for Scotland to get off its knees and build the infrastructure any normal country has. Why should we have to traipse 400 miles so London can make more money.
    Does Scotland have the catchment area to support a large international hub?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    As I said yesterday, something is wrong with Boris. Where is the mojo?

    Hes nervous as hes so massively the frontrunner and knows the job is harder than he is saying. I think its as simple as that.
    He also appears to have picked a cabal of ignorant cockwombles to run his campaign.
    Are you implying Gavin Williamson is not the master strategist we understand him to be?
    Apparently Bozza is being chaperoned by James "Where's" Wharton, a tactician so astute that in 2017 he opted not to campaign in his safe seat which he promptly lost.
    ...but Johnson's invisibility cloak is working like a dream. It is only when he mislays it (maybe in a hard to find place like somewhere in his Toyota Previa) that the campaign is temporarily derailed.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    tlg86 said:

    I hope HYUFD is not alone at this difficult time.

    https://twitter.com/SundayTimesSco/status/1142646639057915904

    Sounds like the best argument I've heard in favour of Boris.
    You & me both, sport, you & me both.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    edited June 2019

    I hope HYUFD is not alone at this difficult time.

    https://twitter.com/SundayTimesSco/status/1142646639057915904

    On the assumption of a No Deal Brexit which I still don't think Boris would deliver, if he delivers a GB FTA then most Scots would be fine with that.

    Plus of course on purely party political terms Boris does boost the Tories vote in Scotland by winning back Brexit Party voters.

    Panelbase has had a lot of scenarios giving a Yes victory in Scotland recently of course Yes led a poll 2 weeks before indyref 2014 which No won by 10%.

    I also refer you to the below

    https://twitter.com/JamesTapsfield/status/1142716177749295104?s=20
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
    You’ve lost me there. I am talking about Remain supporting MPs who won their seats in 2017 on a pledge to implement Brexit, then voted down Mays deal and pointed at the ERG. If they’d voted for it, the ERG would have been defeated, we’d have left, & moved on.

    If we had an EFTA/EEA Brexit that appealed to Remainers we would have had already left and moved on. Two can play at this ridiculous game.
    Not really, because the cover for those that have thwarted Brexit, is that if the ERG didn’t vote for it why should they?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Yep. He was awful, especially in comparison with Hunt, although the faithful seemed to lap it up.

    I doubt they can be shaken from their faith now, but they will be a very unhappy and disillusioned mob by the end of the autumn if not sooner.

    That's what I think. I know others think he will call an election to try and get a 'Deal or No Deal' mandate but I just can't see him doing that this year. Maybe in 2020 after he's been in for a while. Surely he will negotiate at least one more extension to see if he can get some sort of Brexit deal through.

    Hope I'm wrong though. Because what an election that would be in Oct!
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why does Scotland want a third runway?

    Well, first they supported it:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/10/heathrow-third-runway-expansion-scottish-government

    Then they abstained. Now they're having a think.....
    I am talking about the people , politicians will just just follow what benefits their thinking.
    Only an idiot could think that an extra runway in London , funded with our money , is of any benefit to Scotland. It merely keeps us as serfs having to waste best part of a day going via London.
    I asked one Arsenal fan why he wanted Liverpool to win the champions league his answer was ‘I don’t want some “yid” teams name on the cup’ football often brings out the worst in people.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,272
    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Conservative MPs have picked 2 of the poorest candidates from the last 5 to go through.

    This won’t end well.

    Who was better
    Gove and Saj.

    Rory was at least interesting.

    Hunt is dull , Boris is a clown.
    Gove and Saj and Rory got the Tories fewer seats than Boris or Hunt with Comres, Rory saw mass defections to the Brexit Party
    When you pick based on theoretical polls and not the evidence of actual performance you are using heart over head.
    Raab actually got the Tories more votes and seats than any alternative leader to Boris in the polls if you want to focus solely on head but of course you don't like that so will ignore it
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Killer question from Sophie Ridge to Nicola Sturgeon - "who are you supporting in the football now Scotland are out?"

    Right answer would be anyone but England, but as a politician she will fudge at best but hopefully not cringe and say England.
    People really get so petty they will anti-support another country in supporting events? I thought people only said that as a joke!
    Don't be stupid , nobody gives a crap but why would they have to support England rather than USA or whatever. A bit like millions of people supporting Manchester United but don't live in Manchester , ie London etc.
    It is the fact that unionist muppets are shocked that everyone would not flock to the English Union Jack but may prefer an underdog or the USA as winners.
    It is a pathetic English trait ( including unionist muppets like Hamiltonace) who are apoplectic that someone does not support England.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Except if he does become PM, he wont be there long enough to affect a Indy Ref 2.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    tlg86 said:

    I hope HYUFD is not alone at this difficult time.

    https://twitter.com/SundayTimesSco/status/1142646639057915904

    Sounds like the best argument I've heard in favour of Boris.
    LOL you beat me to it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why does Scotland want a third runway?
    Who gives a shit what Jim Pickard thinks, nasty bile ridden tweet..
    but very true so suck it up
    and If Hunt had filled the pic with his acolytes he would be accused of doing just that, so its a no win situation.
    They are two cheeks of the same arse , will not be crowds out for either.
    Given the Tories always avoid public in Scotland it will not matter , they will manufacture a few Tories cheering etc as usual.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    edited June 2019
    Mr. G, very unfair.

    Hunt may not be Disraeli before*, but he's an order of magnitude better than Boris (by virtue of being fit to be in the Cabinet).

    Edited extra bit: *that is one hell of a typo. I meant 'reborn'.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    TGOHF said:
    Since he always wanted to achieve the job rather than any good it might bring the rest of us, isn't this the ideal outcome all round?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    HYUFD said:

    I hope HYUFD is not alone at this difficult time.

    https://twitter.com/SundayTimesSco/status/1142646639057915904

    On the assumption of a No Deal Brexit which I still don't think Boris would deliver, if he delivers a GB FTA then most Scots would be fine with that.

    Plus of course on purely party political terms Boris does boost the Tories vote in Scotland by winning back Brexit Party voters.

    Panelbase has had a lot of scenarios giving a Yes victory in Scotland recently of course Yes led a poll 2 weeks before indyref 2014 which No won by 10%.

    I also refer you to the below

    https://twitter.com/JamesTapsfield/status/1142716177749295104?s=20
    Other parties are available...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
    You’ve lost me there. I am talking about Remain supporting MPs who won their seats in 2017 on a pledge to implement Brexit, then voted down Mays deal and pointed at the ERG. If they’d voted for it, the ERG would have been defeated, we’d have left, & moved on.

    If we had an EFTA/EEA Brexit that appealed to Remainers we would have had already left and moved on. Two can play at this ridiculous game.
    Not really, because the cover for those that have thwarted Brexit, is that if the ERG didn’t vote for it why should they?
    And why should they?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    The numbers say no. If the ERG had all voted for Mays Deal, it still wouldn’t have passed.

    The numbers don't tell you everything, though. If the Leave side had been solid in support of the WA then Labour leavers would have voted for it too. They wouldn't have needed many to make up for the missing DUP votes. Once the Leavers started running against it they turned the offer to these MPs into "vote for the Brexit we wanted, get accused of betraying your party, and we'll accuse you of treason for good measure", which understandably most of them ended up not taking.
    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.
    That's true enough. Politics is politics but there were multiple votes and if someone thought it was acceptable but refused to back it because of a lack of cover that is far worse than simply disagreeing with it. The Nandy's and co are quite guilty of that.
    Labour MPs were elected on a manifesto to implement a particular kind of Brexit. If the government had wanted their votes it should have agreed a compromise between its own policy and the opposition's one. You can't blame Labour for opposing a policy on which they were not consulted and which offered their voters little.
    We are repeatedly told it was the ERGs fault that Labour politicians didn’t vote for Mays deal, and that had they done so, Labour would have too
    Well that is one way of putting it. A more accurate way to describe it would be that Labour MPs who backed May's deal had to not only appear to support the Conservative government but also make themselves liable to being criticised for not supporting the 'true' form of Brexit. Had the Conservatives been united then they would at least be able to say that they were simply respecting the wishes of the leave voting majority.

    But the details will soon be forgotten. The big picture is that Brexit couldn't be delivered because leavers couldn't agree amongst themselves. They still can't. Brexit has failed. It could probably never have been delivered. It cannot be delivered now.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why does Scotland want a third runway?

    Well, first they supported it:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/10/heathrow-third-runway-expansion-scottish-government

    Then they abstained. Now they're having a think.....
    I am talking about the people , politicians will just just follow what benefits their thinking.
    Only an idiot could think that an extra runway in London , funded with our money , is of any benefit to Scotland. It merely keeps us as serfs having to waste best part of a day going via London.
    Depends where you're going. If its East then Emirates has daily flights from Edinburgh and twice daily from Glasgow. If its west then expect more direct flights as the A321NeoLR comes into service. You can already fly direct from Glasgow to Toronto & New York.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
    You’ve lost me there. I am talking about Remain supporting MPs who won their seats in 2017 on a pledge to implement Brexit, then voted down Mays deal and pointed at the ERG. If they’d voted for it, the ERG would have been defeated, we’d have left, & moved on.

    If we had an EFTA/EEA Brexit that appealed to Remainers we would have had already left and moved on. Two can play at this ridiculous game.
    Not really, because the cover for those that have thwarted Brexit, is that if the ERG didn’t vote for it why should they?
    And why should they?
    Because Labour and Tory MPs, inc Grieve, Soubry, Allen and Umunna, were elected in 2017 on a promise of delivering the referendum verdict. They didn’t, and now they come 3rd, 4th and somewhere far off in the distance in national elections
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    isam said:

    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
    You’ve lost me there. I am talking about Remain supporting MPs who won their seats in 2017 on a pledge to implement Brexit, then voted down Mays deal and pointed at the ERG. If they’d voted for it, the ERG would have been defeated, we’d have left, & moved on.

    We really would not have moved on. We'd have the ERG and Farage moaning day and night that Brexit had been stolen and the country surrendered to Brussels. The only difference from the status quo is that we would have left the EU.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    isam said:

    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
    You’ve lost me there. I am talking about Remain supporting MPs who won their seats in 2017 on a pledge to implement Brexit, then voted down Mays deal and pointed at the ERG. If they’d voted for it, the ERG would have been defeated, we’d have left, & moved on.

    The mere suggestion of delivering Brexit by "defeating" the ERG illustrates the nonsense of their and your position.

    The handful of Tory remainers was balanced by Labour leavers backing the deal, of whom there would have been more if it had stood any chance
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2019

    isam said:

    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
    You’ve lost me there. I am talking about Remain supporting MPs who won their seats in 2017 on a pledge to implement Brexit, then voted down Mays deal and pointed at the ERG. If they’d voted for it, the ERG would have been defeated, we’d have left, & moved on.

    We really would not have moved on. We'd have the ERG and Farage moaning day and night that Brexit had been stolen and the country surrendered to Brussels. The only difference from the status quo is that we would have left the EU.
    A small band of Tory MPs, and a man who was relevant 3-4 years ago moaning about it on the radio, while the rest of the country moved on. I think that’s better than what we have now
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
    You’ve lost me there. I am talking about Remain supporting MPs who won their seats in 2017 on a pledge to implement Brexit, then voted down Mays deal and pointed at the ERG. If they’d voted for it, the ERG would have been defeated, we’d have left, & moved on.

    If we had an EFTA/EEA Brexit that appealed to Remainers we would have had already left and moved on. Two can play at this ridiculous game.
    Not really, because the cover for those that have thwarted Brexit, is that if the ERG didn’t vote for it why should they?
    And why should they?
    Because Labour and Tory MPs, inc Grieve, Soubry, Allen and Umunna, were elected in 2017 on a promise of delivering the referendum verdict. They didn’t, and now they come 3rd, 4th and somewhere far off in the distance in national elections
    The Tory manifesto said we needed to know the future relationship within the 2 year period. The government failed to deliver so MPs were not going against the manifesto by voting against the WA.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Who are the 9% who say the incident makes them more likely to vote for Johnson ?

    And why ?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
    You’ve lost me there. I am talking about Remain supporting MPs who won their seats in 2017 on a pledge to implement Brexit, then voted down Mays deal and pointed at the ERG. If they’d voted for it, the ERG would have been defeated, we’d have left, & moved on.

    If we had an EFTA/EEA Brexit that appealed to Remainers we would have had already left and moved on. Two can play at this ridiculous game.
    Not really, because the cover for those that have thwarted Brexit, is that if the ERG didn’t vote for it why should they?
    And why should they?
    Because Labour and Tory MPs, inc Grieve, Soubry, Allen and Umunna, were elected in 2017 on a promise of delivering the referendum verdict. They didn’t, and now they come 3rd, 4th and somewhere far off in the distance in national elections
    The Tory manifesto said we needed to know the future relationship within the 2 year period. The government failed to deliver so MPs were not going against the manifesto by voting against the WA.
    We voted to Leave and haven’t left, thanks to the votes of Remain MPs who were elected on a pledge to Leave. That all there is to it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    Nigelb said:

    Who are the 9% who say the incident makes them more likely to vote for Johnson ?

    And why ?

    They believe the motivation of the story to damage him shows that they need to back him to preserve Brexit, I assume.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,551
    IanB2 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Since he always wanted to achieve the job rather than any good it might bring the rest of us, isn't this the ideal outcome all round?
    It's win win win.

    Win for us
    Win for Boris
    and Win for rejecting the principle that a small self selecting group of Brexiteers can choose our next PM.

    The Tory membership choose Johnson, and parliament shouts "WRONG". Next.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,772
    edited June 2019
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    If what you’re saying is that MPs who vowed to implement the referendum result stopped a deal they thought did that, because a minority of others didn’t think it went far enough, then that doesn’t reflect well on them.

    Leave-supporting Labour MPs generally aren't my favourite group of people but they're politicians, obviously they do politics. "Give me what I want in defiance of your party and I'll accuse you of treason" isn't a massively convincing argument.
    You’ve lost me there. I am talking about Remain supporting MPs who won their seats in 2017 on a pledge to implement Brexit, then voted down Mays deal and pointed at the ERG. If they’d voted for it, the ERG would have been defeated, we’d have left, & moved on.

    We really would not have moved on. We'd have the ERG and Farage moaning day and night that Brexit had been stolen and the country surrendered to Brussels. The only difference from the status quo is that we would have left the EU.
    A small band of Tory MPs, and a man who was relevant 3-4 years ago moaning about it on the radio, while the rest of the country moved on. I think that’s better than what we have now
    Edit: mispost from a misread. Sorry Isam: Head is not in gear this morning!
This discussion has been closed.