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  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    Charles said:

    Chris said:

    Kinabalu, you may be right. But if Johnson does that I really do think it will be curtains for the tories for a generation. Without a working majority he will continually lose votes in the HoC, which doesn't look good at the best of times and this isn't one of those. It will make the long slow slide of Major's '92-'97 Gov't look positively stable.

    He's such a divisive figure anyway that I can see a VONC succeeding even with a few Labour mavericks and independents voting with Boris.

    We really are heading into a blind alley. And the Conservative party membership are at the wheel.

    I think his one and only hope is to strike instantly in his honeymoon, go for the jugular on Corbyn (use Michael Gove for this), make it a Brexit or Bust election and he 'might' just win a majority. Otherwise it's curtains.

    According to Wikipedia George Canning currently holds the record for the shortest tenure as prime minister - 119 days.
    How can the Tory party even consider giving a man like Johnson a position once held by a man like George Canning?

    Also: if any other industry's flagship product had deteriorated in quality over the last 200 years to the extent that Eton's has, it would be out of business.
    The product has been diverted into other more profitable areas than public flagellation
    I'm sure that private flagellation has always been part of the product offering.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    DavidL said:

    It raises doubts about the utility of such polls. I am a Rory fan and very much welcome his insertions of reality into the debate but he was poor last night as he himself has acknowledged. The format and infantile form of questioning encouraged banalities and that is not really his thing. This survey reflects the views that people had going in to the debate not coming out.

    Plus I have to say very badly managed by Maitlis she never really had control of them. Krishnan much better on Sunday he had them on lock.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    DavidL said:

    It raises doubts about the utility of such polls. I am a Rory fan and very much welcome his insertions of reality into the debate but he was poor last night as he himself has acknowledged. The format and infantile form of questioning encouraged banalities and that is not really his thing. This survey reflects the views that people had going in to the debate not coming out.

    it reflects their notional voting intention, not their actual reflection on the debate
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    What part of leaving the Single Market is it that Brexiters find it so hard to understand?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Charles said:

    My God, this cover-up is embarrassing: it might even do for him if someone blabs. Twitter's unusual login emails are near-instant:
    https://twitter.com/IanLaveryMP/status/1141333699461599232

    What is this mysterious tweet he sent or didn’t send ?
    A reply to a journo about the switch in Labour's policy:
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1141316394728009728

    Followed up by hilarious denial:
    https://twitter.com/IanLaveryMP/status/1141315106216845314
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Ian Lavery proving that unlike the miners he 'looked after' so well (allegedly), he's still excellent at digging in holes.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    What part of leaving the Single Market is it that Brexiters find it so hard to understand?
    I think it was made quite clear during the campaign that leaving would mean leaving the single martlet.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited June 2019

    Ian Lavery proving that unlike the miners he 'looked after' so well (allegedly), he's still excellent at digging in holes.

    It ought to be a matter of honour for the media to turn back the clock and nail him on this. If they can't get a resignation out of a lie and an obviously concocted cover-up, then what hope is there? Everyone will no doubt just have their fun and move on with the news cycle.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    It raises doubts about the utility of such polls. I am a Rory fan and very much welcome his insertions of reality into the debate but he was poor last night as he himself has acknowledged. The format and infantile form of questioning encouraged banalities and that is not really his thing. This survey reflects the views that people had going in to the debate not coming out.

    Plus I have to say very badly managed by Maitlis she never really had control of them. Krishnan much better on Sunday he had them on lock.
    Yes. They should have had one of the brothers Dimbleby and a QT / AQ format.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Ian Lavery proving that unlike the miners he 'looked after' so well (allegedly), he's still excellent at digging in holes.

    It ought to be a matter of honour for the media to turn back the clock and nail him on this. If they can't get a resignation out of a lie and an obviously concocted cover-up, then what hope is there? Everyone will no doubt just have their fun and move on with the news cycle.
    Presumably he meant to send it as a private tweet to Sam?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Charles said:

    Ian Lavery proving that unlike the miners he 'looked after' so well (allegedly), he's still excellent at digging in holes.

    It ought to be a matter of honour for the media to turn back the clock and nail him on this. If they can't get a resignation out of a lie and an obviously concocted cover-up, then what hope is there? Everyone will no doubt just have their fun and move on with the news cycle.
    Presumably he meant to send it as a private tweet to Sam?
    Seems most likely.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Ian Lavery proving that unlike the miners he 'looked after' so well (allegedly), he's still excellent at digging in holes.

    It ought to be a matter of honour for the media to turn back the clock and nail him on this. If they can't get a resignation out of a lie and an obviously concocted cover-up, then what hope is there? Everyone will no doubt just have their fun and move on with the news cycle.
    The tweet certainly seemed authentic in its illiteracy.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Ian Lavery proving that unlike the miners he 'looked after' so well (allegedly), he's still excellent at digging in holes.

    It ought to be a matter of honour for the media to turn back the clock and nail him on this. If they can't get a resignation out of a lie and an obviously concocted cover-up, then what hope is there? Everyone will no doubt just have their fun and move on with the news cycle.
    The tweet certainly seemed authentic in its illiteracy.
    The tell-tale signs were their.
    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1141323577649782784
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Good afternoon. Does anyone think Rory could get knocked out today, rather than Javid?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Ian Lavery proving that unlike the miners he 'looked after' so well (allegedly), he's still excellent at digging in holes.

    It ought to be a matter of honour for the media to turn back the clock and nail him on this. If they can't get a resignation out of a lie and an obviously concocted cover-up, then what hope is there? Everyone will no doubt just have their fun and move on with the news cycle.
    The tweet certainly seemed authentic in its illiteracy.
    The tell-tale signs were their.
    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1141323577649782784
    I see what you did they’re.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    It raises doubts about the utility of such polls. I am a Rory fan and very much welcome his insertions of reality into the debate but he was poor last night as he himself has acknowledged. The format and infantile form of questioning encouraged banalities and that is not really his thing. This survey reflects the views that people had going in to the debate not coming out.

    Plus I have to say very badly managed by Maitlis she never really had control of them. Krishnan much better on Sunday he had them on lock.
    Just maybe because they had formal plinths instead of lounging around on those bizarre stools. Even these days being selected to be PM is vaguely serious. With this lot particularly so.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    tlg86 said:

    Personally I thought Hunt was the most impressive last night, not that it counts for much.

    Only him and Boris were not being shouty and aggressive
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    CD13 said:

    I haven't watched any debates but Rory will never win. He looks wrong. Nobody's looked like him since Alec Douglas-Home, and he never faced an election.

    OK, I'm one of the 'pick the prettiest woman' brigade, but he needs a face transplant and an injection of charisma.

    If your just looking for a blond airhead with big tits you're in luck.
    Indeed Roger correctly use the masculine form of blond. All those years in France have clearly made him expert in gendered words.

    Penny isn't standing :(
    Don't be sexist - the reference is clearly to Boris.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    Is that genuine ?

    The proposals and promises emerging are so bizarre its impossible to tell.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865

    DavidL said:

    It raises doubts about the utility of such polls. I am a Rory fan and very much welcome his insertions of reality into the debate but he was poor last night as he himself has acknowledged. The format and infantile form of questioning encouraged banalities and that is not really his thing. This survey reflects the views that people had going in to the debate not coming out.

    it reflects their notional voting intention, not their actual reflection on the debate
    I think that is what I was trying to say.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    Surely SA are about 100 runs short here? Is this the day they officially get knocked out of the CWC?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    AndyJS said:

    Good afternoon. Does anyone think Rory could get knocked out today, rather than Javid?

    Yes - I've been a backer around 2/1.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    What part of leaving the Single Market is it that Brexiters find it so hard to understand?
    I think it was made quite clear during the campaign that leaving would mean leaving the single martlet.
    Including the single Market in financial services. So these are not EU threats, merely Brexit chickens preparing to roost.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    26 Labour MPs now suddenly would like to back a deal and want the UK to definitely leave the EU .

    Which leaves 200+ who want to ditch Brexit .

    The whining 26 need to STFU and stop trying to enable a right wing takeover of the UK. They’re a small minority of the party and are acting like the majority .
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    DavidL said:

    It raises doubts about the utility of such polls. I am a Rory fan and very much welcome his insertions of reality into the debate but he was poor last night as he himself has acknowledged. The format and infantile form of questioning encouraged banalities and that is not really his thing. This survey reflects the views that people had going in to the debate not coming out.

    I thought Javid edged the debate but Tory and other voters gave him a fat raspberry.

    PB bubble ....
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Rory is not a serious candidate. That became obvious last night. He's just trolling the other candidates and taking everyone for fools.

    Can't believe so many [supposedly] serious people have been taken in by him.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    What part of leaving the Single Market is it that Brexiters find it so hard to understand?
    I think it was made quite clear during the campaign that leaving would mean leaving the single martlet.
    Including the single Market in financial services. So these are not EU threats, merely Brexit chickens preparing to roost.
    When was the last time the UK had a trade surplus with the EU ?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    Good afternoon. Does anyone think Rory could get knocked out today, rather than Javid?

    Yes - I've been a backer around 2/1.
    Depends how much tactical voting there is.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    What part of leaving the Single Market is it that Brexiters find it so hard to understand?
    I think it was made quite clear during the campaign that leaving would mean leaving the single martlet.
    Including the single Market in financial services. So these are not EU threats, merely Brexit chickens preparing to roost.
    Perhaps it is the Times that finds the whole concept hard to understand then?
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    Whatever happened to Sir Graham Brady?

    & whatever happened to Sir Geoffrey Cox?
    He is still a bombastic fool.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    nico67 said:

    26 Labour MPs now suddenly would like to back a deal and want the UK to definitely leave the EU .

    Which leaves 200+ who want to ditch Brexit .

    The whining 26 need to STFU and stop trying to enable a right wing takeover of the UK. They’re a small minority of the party and are acting like the majority .


    lol, a right wing takeover?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    South Africa are making heavy weather of batting at Edgbaston against New Zealand.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    GIN1138 said:

    Rory is not a serious candidate. That became obvious last night. He's just trolling the other candidates and taking everyone for fools.

    Can't believe so many [supposedly] serious people have been taken in by him.
    Still he's managed to widen the debate and put his views out encouraging public debate.

    Though I'm not sure what his views are.

    Or those of any of the others.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Good afternoon, my fellow unvetted and potentially dubious questioners.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    GIN1138 said:

    Rory is not a serious candidate. That became obvious last night. He's just trolling the other candidates and taking everyone for fools.

    Can't believe so many [supposedly] serious people have been taken in by him.
    It's a running joke about Amess and his campaign getting Southend to be a City... lighten up.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Exactly. Opponents of the EU often fall into the trap of seeing it as a utopian scheme that depends on everyone believing in it for it to survive, when they are the ones who just can't accept reality.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    26 Labour MPs now suddenly would like to back a deal and want the UK to definitely leave the EU .

    Which leaves 200+ who want to ditch Brexit .

    The whining 26 need to STFU and stop trying to enable a right wing takeover of the UK. They’re a small minority of the party and are acting like the majority .


    lol, a right wing takeover?
    Brexit is a right wing coup dressed up as some guff to stick it to the elite . Any Labour MP enabling a Tory Brexit should be deselected.

    Any Labour MP who doesn’t vote to stop no deal should be kicked out of the party.

    Mann , Hoey etc can all go fuck themselves.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    GIN1138 said:

    Rory is not a serious candidate. That became obvious last night. He's just trolling the other candidates and taking everyone for fools.

    Can't believe so many [supposedly] serious people have been taken in by him.
    And you're a serious critic ? :smile:
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    26 Labour MPs now suddenly would like to back a deal and want the UK to definitely leave the EU .

    Which leaves 200+ who want to ditch Brexit .

    The whining 26 need to STFU and stop trying to enable a right wing takeover of the UK. They’re a small minority of the party and are acting like the majority .


    lol, a right wing takeover?
    Brexit is a right wing coup dressed up as some guff to stick it to the elite . Any Labour MP enabling a Tory Brexit should be deselected.

    Any Labour MP who doesn’t vote to stop no deal should be kicked out of the party.

    Mann , Hoey etc can all go fuck themselves.
    Since when is self-governance a right-wing coup?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Whatever happened to Sir Graham Brady?

    & whatever happened to Sir Geoffrey Cox?
    He is still a bombastic fool.
    But given that, curiously silent...
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Rory is not a serious candidate. That became obvious last night. He's just trolling the other candidates and taking everyone for fools.

    Can't believe so many [supposedly] serious people have been taken in by him.
    And you're a serious critic ? :smile:
    Putting a grinning face on the end of one's posts so that readers imagine you sitting in the corner drooling, rocking and humming is the mark of serious.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565

    Is that genuine ?

    The proposals and promises emerging are so bizarre its impossible to tell.
    Compared to leaving on Oct 31st, proroguing parliament, higher rate of tax up to 80k, making Southend a city is pretty tame. Making Penrith a city and revoking Channel 4's broadcasting licence unless they move their HQ there - that would be more in-keeping with this contest.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    AndyJS said:

    South Africa are making heavy weather of batting at Edgbaston against New Zealand.

    To be fair, the weather is pretty heavy.

    Another wicket falls.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    26 Labour MPs now suddenly would like to back a deal and want the UK to definitely leave the EU .

    Which leaves 200+ who want to ditch Brexit .

    The whining 26 need to STFU and stop trying to enable a right wing takeover of the UK. They’re a small minority of the party and are acting like the majority .


    lol, a right wing takeover?
    Brexit is a right wing coup dressed up as some guff to stick it to the elite . Any Labour MP enabling a Tory Brexit should be deselected.

    Any Labour MP who doesn’t vote to stop no deal should be kicked out of the party.

    Mann , Hoey etc can all go fuck themselves.
    The Labour leadership seems quite keen on it. I'm not sure that they could reasonably be described as right-wing.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
    So what is the UK's trade balance with the EU ?

    How has it changed since 2000 ?

    And ditto what is the UK's trade balance with the rest of the world and how has it changed since 2000 ?

    And what I'm heading to is the UK's trade policy working successfully for the UK economy.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Boris edges Rory in Opinium survey of who won the BBC debate :

    Boris 22%
    Rory 21%
    Hunt 14%
    Javid 9%
    Gove 8%

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1141326443634397184
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2019
    I don't see where Stewart picks up any extra support compared to yesterday. And there's no reason for anyone to vote tactically for him. Javid needs just 5 votes to overtake him.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Warren continues to gain traction:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/19/democratic-establishment-elizabeth-warren-1369874

    I think Sanders is now out of it.
    One of the new faces might yet break from the chasing pack, but the window is narrowing.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    nico67 said:

    Any Labour MP who doesn’t vote to stop no deal should be kicked out of the party.

    So that's all but around five Labour MPs kicked out. A bit draconian, don't you think?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    26 Labour MPs now suddenly would like to back a deal and want the UK to definitely leave the EU .

    Which leaves 200+ who want to ditch Brexit .

    The whining 26 need to STFU and stop trying to enable a right wing takeover of the UK. They’re a small minority of the party and are acting like the majority .


    lol, a right wing takeover?
    Brexit is a right wing coup dressed up as some guff to stick it to the elite . Any Labour MP enabling a Tory Brexit should be deselected.

    Any Labour MP who doesn’t vote to stop no deal should be kicked out of the party.

    Mann , Hoey etc can all go fuck themselves.
    Since when is self-governance a right-wing coup?
    The UK already had self governance . It’s not a crime to chose to share some sovereignty with fellow EU nations to work together .

    Enjoy your Brexit where the UK will be Trumps poodle and have to follow rules that it has zero input in making .

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GIN1138 said:

    Rory is not a serious candidate. That became obvious last night. He's just trolling the other candidates and taking everyone for fools.

    Can't believe so many [supposedly] serious people have been taken in by him.
    Politicians know they are a serious candidate when the opposition attacks them.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    The Tory MPs need to pick a leader who can pick up votes other than those from current supporters. They should ask is Boris going to cost them support at a future general election.

    It would be quite an achievement to pick someone was voter repellent as Corbyn.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    26 Labour MPs now suddenly would like to back a deal and want the UK to definitely leave the EU .

    Which leaves 200+ who want to ditch Brexit .

    The whining 26 need to STFU and stop trying to enable a right wing takeover of the UK. They’re a small minority of the party and are acting like the majority .


    lol, a right wing takeover?
    Brexit is a right wing coup dressed up as some guff to stick it to the elite . Any Labour MP enabling a Tory Brexit should be deselected.

    Any Labour MP who doesn’t vote to stop no deal should be kicked out of the party.

    Mann , Hoey etc can all go fuck themselves.
    Since when is self-governance a right-wing coup?
    The UK already had self governance . It’s not a crime to chose to share some sovereignty with fellow EU nations to work together .

    Enjoy your Brexit where the UK will be Trumps poodle and have to follow rules that it has zero input in making .

    No, it’s supposed to be a choice. And we’ve just made that particular choice.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
    So what is the UK's trade balance with the EU ?

    How has it changed since 2000 ?

    And ditto what is the UK's trade balance with the rest of the world and how has it changed since 2000 ?

    And what I'm heading to is the UK's trade policy working successfully for the UK economy.
    Now PBers here's a question for one and all.

    The UK has had a continuous trade deficit since 1998.

    That's 22 years of consecutive trade deficit.

    Do you think that the UK's trade policy is successful ?

    Or do you wonder if the UK's trade policy has been inappropriate for the UK economy ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
    So what is the UK's trade balance with the EU ?

    How has it changed since 2000 ?

    And ditto what is the UK's trade balance with the rest of the world and how has it changed since 2000 ?

    And what I'm heading to is the UK's trade policy working successfully for the UK economy.
    Now PBers here's a question for one and all.

    The UK has had a continuous trade deficit since 1998.

    That's 22 years of consecutive trade deficit.

    Do you think that the UK's trade policy is successful ?

    Or do you wonder if the UK's trade policy has been inappropriate for the UK economy ?
    Good question. We could put up posters telling people not to buy all that imported foreign crap. I can see it being a hugely successful campaign.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    edited June 2019
    I don't imagine for one moment that Trump intended to start a decades long struggle with China, but that is what seems to be beginning:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Cover-Story/Fears-of-digital-iron-curtain-spread-as-US-and-China-dig-in
    "The world will have to live with the two [technology] standards, created by the U.S. and China separately after the two big powers' fierce competition. ... It's likely that it will become 'One World, Two Systems.'"

    ...Chinese President Xi Jinping has compared the tech conflict with the U.S. to the Red Army's "Long March" under Mao in the 1930s -- which many observers say indicates that the country is girding for a prolonged battle.

    "Even if the Chinese tech industry is not ready, we will have no choice but to take the 'new Long March,"' said Wang Huiyao, president of the Center for China and Globalization, an independent think tank in Beijing. "The Chinese tech industry is at a critical moment and we can't just sit and watch it die. We used to rely on global suppliers, letting other countries do what they can do the best. Now, we will have to build our own supply chain."
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    Good afternoon. Does anyone think Rory could get knocked out today, rather than Javid?

    Yes - I've been a backer around 2/1.
    Depends how much tactical voting there is.
    Absolutely. I would have thought Boris is quite relaxed about Rory staying in until the round of 3 - he's keeping the media occupied.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Gove has finally overtaken Stewart in the betting stakes.

    Reality had to set in eventually.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
    So what is the UK's trade balance with the EU ?

    How has it changed since 2000 ?

    And ditto what is the UK's trade balance with the rest of the world and how has it changed since 2000 ?

    And what I'm heading to is the UK's trade policy working successfully for the UK economy.
    Now PBers here's a question for one and all.

    The UK has had a continuous trade deficit since 1998.

    That's 22 years of consecutive trade deficit.

    Do you think that the UK's trade policy is successful ?

    Or do you wonder if the UK's trade policy has been inappropriate for the UK economy ?
    Good question. We could put up posters telling people not to buy all that imported foreign crap. I can see it being a hugely successful campaign.
    Ban foreign holidays? Limit forex availability? Bridlington or bust.
  • PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    Mortimer said:

    MikeL said:

    It's worth noting that the columns in the YouGov poll are 2017 vote.

    Con got 43.5% (GB) in 2017. So Con 2017 voters are the key people who matter for Con next time. They are a very big pool.

    Hardly anyone who voted Lab in 2017 is going to vote Con next time. So the views of these people are of almost no relevance to who is best placed to win Con the next GE.

    This is something that bears repeating.
    I think we are forgetting that in 2017 a lot of the pitch from Labour and LibDems on the doorstep was along the lines of "Forget Corbyn, May's going to win easily - just don't give the Tories a landslide "

    If Cortbyn in Downing Street begins to look realistic, maybe there are some who switch
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
    So what is the UK's trade balance with the EU ?

    How has it changed since 2000 ?

    And ditto what is the UK's trade balance with the rest of the world and how has it changed since 2000 ?

    And what I'm heading to is the UK's trade policy working successfully for the UK economy.
    Now PBers here's a question for one and all.

    The UK has had a continuous trade deficit since 1998.

    That's 22 years of consecutive trade deficit.

    Do you think that the UK's trade policy is successful ?

    Or do you wonder if the UK's trade policy has been inappropriate for the UK economy ?
    Good question. We could put up posters telling people not to buy all that imported foreign crap. I can see it being a hugely successful campaign.
    Are you still complaining that the imported consumer tat isn't cheap enough ?

    Now do you think that the UK can continue to run a trade deficit and an even larger balance of payments deficit forever ?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
    So what is the UK's trade balance with the EU ?

    How has it changed since 2000 ?

    And ditto what is the UK's trade balance with the rest of the world and how has it changed since 2000 ?

    And what I'm heading to is the UK's trade policy working successfully for the UK economy.
    Now PBers here's a question for one and all.

    The UK has had a continuous trade deficit since 1998.

    That's 22 years of consecutive trade deficit.

    Do you think that the UK's trade policy is successful ?

    Or do you wonder if the UK's trade policy has been inappropriate for the UK economy ?
    I think that the trade deficit is a result of wider economic policy - eg the support given to house prices that make voters feel wealthy and more likely to vote for the incumbent government.

    I have no idea whether the narrow question of the UK's trade policy has had a positive or negative effect.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    GIN1138 said:

    Rory is not a serious candidate. That became obvious last night. He's just trolling the other candidates and taking everyone for fools.

    Can't believe so many [supposedly] serious people have been taken in by him.
    I can't believe you've been taken in by a satirical tweet!
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    matt said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
    So what is the UK's trade balance with the EU ?

    How has it changed since 2000 ?

    And ditto what is the UK's trade balance with the rest of the world and how has it changed since 2000 ?

    And what I'm heading to is the UK's trade policy working successfully for the UK economy.
    Now PBers here's a question for one and all.

    The UK has had a continuous trade deficit since 1998.

    That's 22 years of consecutive trade deficit.

    Do you think that the UK's trade policy is successful ?

    Or do you wonder if the UK's trade policy has been inappropriate for the UK economy ?
    Good question. We could put up posters telling people not to buy all that imported foreign crap. I can see it being a hugely successful campaign.
    Ban foreign holidays? Limit forex availability? Bridlington or bust.
    Believe in Bognor.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    26 Labour MPs now suddenly would like to back a deal and want the UK to definitely leave the EU .

    Which leaves 200+ who want to ditch Brexit .

    The whining 26 need to STFU and stop trying to enable a right wing takeover of the UK. They’re a small minority of the party and are acting like the majority .


    lol, a right wing takeover?
    Brexit is a right wing coup dressed up as some guff to stick it to the elite . Any Labour MP enabling a Tory Brexit should be deselected.

    Any Labour MP who doesn’t vote to stop no deal should be kicked out of the party.

    Mann , Hoey etc can all go fuck themselves.
    No - pro-Marketeers who supported the Heath Govt in Autumn 1971 were not disciplined. There were 69 of them including Deputy Leader - Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams , Roy Hattersley, David Owen, John Smith . Only one MP - Dick Taverne at Lincoln - faced deselection. For much of the 1980s it was party policy to leave the EEC - without a Referendum - , and it is hardly reasonable to expect all MPs to go along with a policy change. The current minority deserve to be treated with the same respect and consideration that was shown to the Pro- Marketeers in the 1970s.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    What part of leaving the Single Market is it that Brexiters find it so hard to understand?
    I think it was made quite clear during the campaign that leaving would mean leaving the single martlet.
    Almost as clear as the fact would would not be leaving without a deal
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
    So what is the UK's trade balance with the EU ?

    How has it changed since 2000 ?

    And ditto what is the UK's trade balance with the rest of the world and how has it changed since 2000 ?

    And what I'm heading to is the UK's trade policy working successfully for the UK economy.
    Now PBers here's a question for one and all.

    The UK has had a continuous trade deficit since 1998.

    That's 22 years of consecutive trade deficit.

    Do you think that the UK's trade policy is successful ?

    Or do you wonder if the UK's trade policy has been inappropriate for the UK economy ?
    Good question. We could put up posters telling people not to buy all that imported foreign crap. I can see it being a hugely successful campaign.
    Are you still complaining that the imported consumer tat isn't cheap enough ?

    Now do you think that the UK can continue to run a trade deficit and an even larger balance of payments deficit forever ?
    Our balance of trade position is a function of our savings rate and product preference and substitution.

    What measures are you proposing to redress our balance of payments?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The fielding at this cricket world cup has been less than impressive.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    OllyT said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    What part of leaving the Single Market is it that Brexiters find it so hard to understand?
    I think it was made quite clear during the campaign that leaving would mean leaving the single martlet.
    Almost as clear as the fact would would not be leaving without a deal
    Not sure I remember hearing the words “withdrawal agreement” in the campaign. :p
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    TOPPING said:

    Plus I have to say very badly managed by Maitlis she never really had control of them. Krishnan much better on Sunday he had them on lock.

    She wasn't great. Smart, good presenter, good interviewer, but lacks the sense of authority that you need for chairing. I suppose this is why she didn't get the QT job.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,709
    edited June 2019

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
    So what is the UK's trade balance with the EU ?

    How has it changed since 2000 ?

    And ditto what is the UK's trade balance with the rest of the world and how has it changed since 2000 ?

    And what I'm heading to is the UK's trade policy working successfully for the UK economy.
    Now PBers here's a question for one and all.

    The UK has had a continuous trade deficit since 1998.

    That's 22 years of consecutive trade deficit.

    Do you think that the UK's trade policy is successful ?

    Or do you wonder if the UK's trade policy has been inappropriate for the UK economy ?
    Good question. We could put up posters telling people not to buy all that imported foreign crap. I can see it being a hugely successful campaign.
    Are you still complaining that the imported consumer tat isn't cheap enough ?

    Now do you think that the UK can continue to run a trade deficit and an even larger balance of payments deficit forever ?
    You have identified a problem.

    Good. That is the first stage.

    The next stage is what to do about it. I really cannot see how leaving the EU will 'fix' the problem.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2019
    The Raabites seem to be going very much for Boris, which isn't much of a surprise (see Guardian live blog). Perhaps the vote totals of the other contenders won't change much this time round.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    What part of leaving the Single Market is it that Brexiters find it so hard to understand?
    I think it was made quite clear during the campaign that leaving would mean leaving the single martlet.
    That would be a question for a heraldic expert. All I know about martlets is that they don't have feet.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    matt said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
    So what is the UK's trade balance with the EU ?

    How has it changed since 2000 ?

    And ditto what is the UK's trade balance with the rest of the world and how has it changed since 2000 ?

    And what I'm heading to is the UK's trade policy working successfully for the UK economy.
    Now PBers here's a question for one and all.

    The UK has had a continuous trade deficit since 1998.

    That's 22 years of consecutive trade deficit.

    Do you think that the UK's trade policy is successful ?

    Or do you wonder if the UK's trade policy has been inappropriate for the UK economy ?
    Good question. We could put up posters telling people not to buy all that imported foreign crap. I can see it being a hugely successful campaign.
    Ban foreign holidays? Limit forex availability? Bridlington or bust.
    Are you writing Corbyn's manifesto?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    AndyJS said:

    Good afternoon. Does anyone think Rory could get knocked out today, rather than Javid?

    I will be surprised if he survives. Why would the Hard Brexit crew not take the opportunity to knock him out?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Chris said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    What part of leaving the Single Market is it that Brexiters find it so hard to understand?
    I think it was made quite clear during the campaign that leaving would mean leaving the single martlet.
    That would be a question for a heraldic expert. All I know about martlets is that they don't have feet.
    FFS!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    The Raabites seem to be going very much for Boris, which isn't much of a surprise (see Guardian live blog). Perhaps the vote totals of the other contenders won't change much this time round.

    Isn't the correct word Raable?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    The Raabites seem to be going very much for Boris, which isn't much of a surprise (see Guardian live blog). Perhaps the votes of the other contenders won't change much this time round.

    I'm not sure there's any particular reason why Javid should overtake Rory, particularly given the opinion poll reactions to last night's debate. And if Javid is eliminated, I'd have thought that would be better for Rory than for Gove or Hunt.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who want to know what life after a No Deal exit might be like - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brussels-set-to-make-example-of-the-swiss-in-brexit-warning-kk27kmxxk

    Ah but you see, if the Swiss believed in Switzerland more, that wouldn't happen. They are clearly just talking Switzerland down.
    Threats might be counter-productive, in terms of building popular support for the EU in this country.
    Maybe they are not threats but simply statements of the obvious: if you want access to a market you do so on its terms.

    Puncturing fantasies is not the same as threat.
    Do you know what the UK's trade balance is with the EU ?
    Yes.

    Let me guess: you're heading for the "they need us more than we need them" gambit?

    Am I right?
    So what is the UK's trade balance with the EU ?

    How has it changed since 2000 ?

    And ditto what is the UK's trade balance with the rest of the world and how has it changed since 2000 ?

    And what I'm heading to is the UK's trade policy working successfully for the UK economy.
    Now PBers here's a question for one and all.

    The UK has had a continuous trade deficit since 1998.

    That's 22 years of consecutive trade deficit.

    Do you think that the UK's trade policy is successful ?

    Or do you wonder if the UK's trade policy has been inappropriate for the UK economy ?
    I think that the trade deficit is a result of wider economic policy - eg the support given to house prices that make voters feel wealthy and more likely to vote for the incumbent government.

    I have no idea whether the narrow question of the UK's trade policy has had a positive or negative effect.
    That's a good point.

    But if we assume that governments are going to give support to house prices, encourage people to live beyond their means and generally spend more than they tax ** then perhaps trade policy (and other aspects of economic strategy) should be formulated to reflect that.

    Whereas the trade strategy of ever freer trade which the UK has pursued over the last few decades has resulted in 22 consecutive years of trade deficit.

    ** There doesn't seem much likelihood that the next GE will not be filled with tax cut and spending increase promises.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    The Raabites seem to be going very much for Boris, which isn't much of a surprise (see Guardian live blog). Perhaps the vote totals of the other contenders won't change much this time round.

    Isn't the correct word Raable?
    Actually thinking about it 'Raabids' seems most apposite.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,709
    Nigelb said:

    I don't imagine for one moment that Trump intended to start a decades long struggle with China, but that is what seems to be beginning:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Cover-Story/Fears-of-digital-iron-curtain-spread-as-US-and-China-dig-in
    "The world will have to live with the two [technology] standards, created by the U.S. and China separately after the two big powers' fierce competition. ... It's likely that it will become 'One World, Two Systems.'"

    ...Chinese President Xi Jinping has compared the tech conflict with the U.S. to the Red Army's "Long March" under Mao in the 1930s -- which many observers say indicates that the country is girding for a prolonged battle.

    "Even if the Chinese tech industry is not ready, we will have no choice but to take the 'new Long March,"' said Wang Huiyao, president of the Center for China and Globalization, an independent think tank in Beijing. "The Chinese tech industry is at a critical moment and we can't just sit and watch it die. We used to rely on global suppliers, letting other countries do what they can do the best. Now, we will have to build our own supply chain."

    That's one way of looking at it.

    Another is that this is the direction China has been heading in for decades, and you might even say it is their plan. And I doubt "two systems" is referring just to technology.

    But China are not yet ready, as is pointed out. In another ten or twenty yeas they will be, but not yet. Hence now might be the ideal time for the US to take them on in this manner - especially as China hasn't exactly been playing fair in the past.

    But without change in China, the situation is inevitable.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    I think re BoJo keeping the base once he's in office: look to Trump. Did he build a wall? Did he repeal Obamacare? Did he heck. But his base loves him because he embodies, literally, what they want: a racist old white guy shouting at the kids on his lawn.

    BoJo fulfils the same impulse for the little Englander, in their post colonial malaise. He sounds jolly good, and can certainly tell Johnny Foreigner and the Scotch where to get to, and he will stand astride the globe as leader of an international trading powerhouse! And if he only does the first part, well... that's all they really care about.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    kinabalu said:

    AndyJS said:

    Good afternoon. Does anyone think Rory could get knocked out today, rather than Javid?

    I will be surprised if he survives. Why would the Hard Brexit crew not take the opportunity to knock him out?
    Why didn't they take the opportunity yesterday - particularly given the expectation that he would do well in the debate?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Chris said:

    The Raabites seem to be going very much for Boris, which isn't much of a surprise (see Guardian live blog). Perhaps the votes of the other contenders won't change much this time round.

    I'm not sure there's any particular reason why Javid should overtake Rory, particularly given the opinion poll reactions to last night's debate. And if Javid is eliminated, I'd have thought that would be better for Rory than for Gove or Hunt.
    Yes, unless there's some skulduggery to boost Javid over Rory.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    That's a good point.

    But if we assume that governments are going to give support to house prices, encourage people to live beyond their means and generally spend more than they tax ** then perhaps trade policy (and other aspects of economic strategy) should be formulated to reflect that.

    Whereas the trade strategy of ever freer trade which the UK has pursued over the last few decades has resulted in 22 consecutive years of trade deficit.

    ** There doesn't seem much likelihood that the next GE will not be filled with tax cut and spending increase promises.

    So what measures are you looking forward to seeing that will see a reverse in the trade deficit? I mean Brexit may well crash house prices but surely there's more to your strategy than that?

    I mean you keep bringing it up so presumably you have a plan/wishlist?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Some of the betting has been very odd. Whoever laid me Javid at 400 must have very deep pockets indeed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Nigelb said:

    I don't imagine for one moment that Trump intended to start a decades long struggle with China, but that is what seems to be beginning:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Cover-Story/Fears-of-digital-iron-curtain-spread-as-US-and-China-dig-in
    "The world will have to live with the two [technology] standards, created by the U.S. and China separately after the two big powers' fierce competition. ... It's likely that it will become 'One World, Two Systems.'"

    ...Chinese President Xi Jinping has compared the tech conflict with the U.S. to the Red Army's "Long March" under Mao in the 1930s -- which many observers say indicates that the country is girding for a prolonged battle.

    "Even if the Chinese tech industry is not ready, we will have no choice but to take the 'new Long March,"' said Wang Huiyao, president of the Center for China and Globalization, an independent think tank in Beijing. "The Chinese tech industry is at a critical moment and we can't just sit and watch it die. We used to rely on global suppliers, letting other countries do what they can do the best. Now, we will have to build our own supply chain."

    That's one way of looking at it.

    Another is that this is the direction China has been heading in for decades, and you might even say it is their plan. And I doubt "two systems" is referring just to technology.

    But China are not yet ready, as is pointed out. In another ten or twenty yeas they will be, but not yet. Hence now might be the ideal time for the US to take them on in this manner - especially as China hasn't exactly been playing fair in the past.

    But without change in China, the situation is inevitable.
    Perhaps.
    But Trump is forcing trade partners to take sides - at the same time as imposing tariffs on many of them. The divide might be inevitable, but it is not necessarily being managed to the benefit of the US.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Pulpstar said:

    Some of the betting has been very odd. Whoever laid me Javid at 400 must have very deep pockets indeed.

    Well in my defence I backed him at 600 :)
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    The Raabites seem to be going very much for Boris, which isn't much of a surprise (see Guardian live blog). Perhaps the vote totals of the other contenders won't change much this time round.

    Those who appear to share his low standards of personal morality appear to be rallying to him - Michael Fallon and Damian Green who were both casualties of the Sex Pests affair. Then there is Andrea Jenkyns who had a bastard before marrying a fellow Tory MP.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    edited June 2019

    The Raabites seem to be going very much for Boris, which isn't much of a surprise (see Guardian live blog). Perhaps the vote totals of the other contenders won't change much this time round.

    Isn't the correct word Raable?
    Raabid, surely?

    Snap with @RichardNabavi!
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    justin124 said:

    The Raabites seem to be going very much for Boris, which isn't much of a surprise (see Guardian live blog). Perhaps the vote totals of the other contenders won't change much this time round.

    Those who appear to share his low standards of personal morality appear to be rallying to him - Michael Fallon and Damian Green who were both casualties of the Sex Pests affair. Then there is Andrea Jenkyns who had a bastard before marrying a fellow Tory MP.
    Before, after and during, I shouldn't wonder.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,709
    justin124 said:

    The Raabites seem to be going very much for Boris, which isn't much of a surprise (see Guardian live blog). Perhaps the vote totals of the other contenders won't change much this time round.

    Those who appear to share his low standards of personal morality appear to be rallying to him - Michael Fallon and Damian Green who were both casualties of the Sex Pests affair. Then there is Andrea Jenkyns who had a bastard before marrying a fellow Tory MP.
    "... who had a bastard before marrying a fellow Tory MP."

    The only bastard is you.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    The Raabites seem to be going very much for Boris, which isn't much of a surprise (see Guardian live blog). Perhaps the vote totals of the other contenders won't change much this time round.

    Those who appear to share his low standards of personal morality appear to be rallying to him - Michael Fallon and Damian Green who were both casualties of the Sex Pests affair. Then there is Andrea Jenkyns who had a bastard before marrying a fellow Tory MP.
    "... who had a bastard before marrying a fellow Tory MP."

    The only bastard is you.
    I assure you I was not born out of wedlock.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Cyclefree said:

    The Raabites seem to be going very much for Boris, which isn't much of a surprise (see Guardian live blog). Perhaps the vote totals of the other contenders won't change much this time round.

    Isn't the correct word Raable?
    Raabid, surely?

    Snap with @RichardNabavi!
    Most of them are rather Draab.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    When was the last time the UK had a trade surplus with the EU ?

    Yonks ago?

    Careful here though. Having a trade deficit with the EU does not mean that being in the EU is bad for us and that we should therefore leave it.

    We have a deficit with the World after all. Is the World bad for us? Should we hold a referendum and ask the British people if we should leave it?

    I would say not. Too dangerous. 52% might vote Yes! - then a massive problem getting that through a hung parliament.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    kinabalu said:

    AndyJS said:

    Good afternoon. Does anyone think Rory could get knocked out today, rather than Javid?

    I will be surprised if he survives. Why would the Hard Brexit crew not take the opportunity to knock him out?
    So we should expect Boris's numbers to go down to help Stewart's rivals?
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Plus I have to say very badly managed by Maitlis she never really had control of them. Krishnan much better on Sunday he had them on lock.

    She wasn't great. Smart, good presenter, good interviewer, but lacks the sense of authority that you need for chairing. I suppose this is why she didn't get the QT job.
    Two political interviewers who might cope with them: Andrew Neil or Eddie Mair.
This discussion has been closed.