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  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    viewcode said:

    At some point the rent accrued would not cover the expenses of renting out the flat. So the rent would fall and landlords would sell until a new equilibrium price shook out. You can't make private individuals rent to people.

    Yes, but if you're Jeremy Corbyn and you've just won a General Election then you can expropriate as many buy-to-lets as you like at below market value, by virtue of passing an Act of Parliament permitting this. It's exactly the same thing as has been proposed with respect to utility renationalisation - inventing a range of penalties (e.g. for failure to top up pension funds, or to sufficiently invest in infrastructure, or whatever other excuses Chancellor McDonnell decides to name,) so as to justify paying shareholders only a percentage of the value of their property - so why wouldn't Labour do it to the widely detested rentier landlords as well?

    That's one of the first things to look out for if, as seems likely, the Tories get beat in the next GE. It might even make it into the Labour manifesto.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    kle4 said:

    40 is middle aged. 25 is young. In between is in your prime.

    Not that I am biased, at 32.

    You been drinking KLE, you are a whippersnapper at 40.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Still no tennis player born in the 90s has won a major yet.

    There have been seven.
    WHO ?
    Naomi Osaka, Ashleigh Barty, Simona Halep, Caroline Wozniacki, Sloane Stephens, Jeļena Ostapenko, and Garbiñe Muguruza.
    And Petra Kvitova.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    RobD said:

    It's a bit difficult to tell if ther's a problem with the cladding from here, no?

    If the building's fundamentally on fire, it is going to burn down sooner or later. it's about timings.
    But a modern building, built to current building regulations should never engulf like that, surely?
    Isn't the whole point to slow down the fire, so there is time for the residents to escape?
    Indeed. It's all about time.

    If that's minute 1 of the fire, it's awful, if it's minute 100, not so much.

    Plus we have the Grenfell problem where the building looks more on fire than it actually is (which is a bit of a problem when you operate "Stay In Place".
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    It is about context, innit. In this country, you can pinpoint the geographical origin and skin colour of someone with near certainty if he is described as muslim. In Mecca at the Hajj, say, or at the World Council of Islam if there is such a thing, it is rather less of a clue.

    And race isn't much of an actual thing in any circumstances anyway.
    Are Bosnians the same race as Somalis?

    Are Moroccan Berbers the same race as Malays?


    Conversely: are all brown people Muslim (as you seem to suggest)?
    Or: Are all Muslims brown people?
    Logic fail. I said *in this country* muslims are highly likely to be brown people originating from India/Pakistan, so that *in this country* the objects of anti-Islamism and of anti-subcontinentism have a 95%+ overlap. It is therefore right to be highly suspicious of anyone *in this country* who claims to be anti-Islam purely because he questions many of the tenets of the Quran, unless he also has strong opinions about, let's say, the Analects of Confucius.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    Regarding age I think it's a binary matter. There is a point at which one 'crosses over' from young to old and it happens suddenly. After one has crossed a person is very different to the person one was immediately prior to the event. Not so much physically but mentally. Things that were simple to grasp are now unaccountably complex. Relationships can no longer be significantly changed. They are what they are. You are what you are. Thoughts do not turn to the grave - not at all - but you start to 'audit' your past rather than think about your future.

    It's quite a thing, this crossing over, and for most people it occurs at around the age of 58.

    So OK "Forever Young" - that sounds good (and is a nice Dylan song) but "Forever 57" would have been more accurate and meaningful.

    Bob is 78.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    So if you’re working minimum wage, and getting housing benefit, in London, you can possibly be a net contributor?
    Pepole in London get a disproportionate amount of benefits due to the high rents , get them on the bus to somewhere cheaper and let them pay their own rent. I have to pay huge taxes so people can live in London.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    It is about context, innit. In this country, you can pinpoint the geographical origin and skin colour of someone with near certainty if he is described as muslim. In Mecca at the Hajj, say, or at the World Council of Islam if there is such a thing, it is rather less of a clue.

    And race isn't much of an actual thing in any circumstances anyway.
    Are Bosnians the same race as Somalis?

    Are Moroccan Berbers the same race as Malays?


    Conversely: are all brown people Muslim (as you seem to suggest)?
    Or: Are all Muslims brown people?
    Logic fail. I said *in this country* muslims are highly likely to be brown people originating from India/Pakistan, so that *in this country* the objects of anti-Islamism and of anti-subcontinentism have a 95%+ overlap. It is therefore right to be highly suspicious of anyone *in this country* who claims to be anti-Islam purely because he questions many of the tenets of the Quran, unless he also has strong opinions about, let's say, the Analects of Confucius.
    For a start, there are between 250,000 and 400,000 Somalis in the UK.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981



    For a start, there are between 250,000 and 400,000 Somalis in the UK.

    I was simplifying to make a point, and I imagine that pretty much all people who hate brown people for being brown also haqte black people for being black. You would have a point if you could point to 500,000 muslim ethnic Swedes in the country.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited June 2019
    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    40 is middle aged. 25 is young. In between is in your prime.

    Not that I am biased, at 32.

    You been drinking KLE, you are a whippersnapper at 40.
    Merely a tease toward some of our more...experienced posters :)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    It is about context, innit. In this country, you can pinpoint the geographical origin and skin colour of someone with near certainty if he is described as muslim. In Mecca at the Hajj, say, or at the World Council of Islam if there is such a thing, it is rather less of a clue.

    And race isn't much of an actual thing in any circumstances anyway.
    Are Bosnians the same race as Somalis?

    Are Moroccan Berbers the same race as Malays?


    Conversely: are all brown people Muslim (as you seem to suggest)?
    Or: Are all Muslims brown people?
    Does anyone give a toss
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited June 2019
    I must say @malcolmg that it is very pleasing when I see Highland Cattle grazing on the Town Moor in Newcastle. They are beautiful animals.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    malcolmg said:

    One of the things I actually quite like about the leadership contest is that all the candidates have expressed their Brexit plans based on their area of specialism, so Javid has spoken of solving the border issue, Leadom has spoken about how to start getting the necessary legislation through parliament, and so forth. None is the entire picture, but working together as a coordinated team it actually gives me confidence that Brexit can be handled successfully.

    you are easily fooled by idiots
    All these people have been at the Brexit coalface, it would be improbable that they did not come away with useful knowledge.
    Leadsom I partially agree. Her Managed Exit idea is for the birds, but there's nothing in principle stopping parliament enacting uncontroversial parts of the Withdrawal Agreement now. I haven't noticed Javid say anything useful or realistic about the Irish border.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    40 is middle aged. 25 is young. In between is in your prime.

    Not that I am biased, at 32.

    You been drinking KLE, you are a whippersnapper at 40.
    Merely a tease toward some of our more...experienced posters :)
    You saying I am an old git now :smiley:
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Ishmael_Z said:

    viewcode said:



    The standard for conviction is beyond reasonable doubt. The standard for bringing it to the attention of [whoever] for criminal trial is a prima facie level of evidence that the person has committed a crime. As to your contention that no jury would convict, I'm happy to test that by letting it go to trial and see what they would say. Maybe they'll surprise you, as Clive Ponting so demonstrated.

    You can sneak to whomever you like for whatever you like, the only bound being that your evidence is not so weak that you are wasting police time by advancing it. The DPP must satisfy himorherself that there is a reasonable chance of getting a conviction *and* that it is in the public interest to prosecute. On the first, there probably isn't, and on the second I'd expect the DPP to be wary of being used as a tool in a political battle. Not saying it won't happen (see under Huhne) but it's odds agin (see under Johnson, B.)
    To your second point (DPP wary of being used as a tool in a political battle) I would hope s/he would find the courage appropriate to the post, and there is an obvious recent (US) precedent with the investigation of Clinton's emails. To your first point (reasonable chance of getting a conviction), I think it would get past a jury.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    I must say @malcolmg that it is very pleasing when I see Highland Cattle grazing on the Town Moor in Newcastle. They are beautiful animals.

    Gallowgate , they are indeed , must easily be the brawest cattle in the world by a mile. Always wonderful to see one.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    It is about context, innit. In this country, you can pinpoint the geographical origin and skin colour of someone with near certainty if he is described as muslim. In Mecca at the Hajj, say, or at the World Council of Islam if there is such a thing, it is rather less of a clue.

    And race isn't much of an actual thing in any circumstances anyway.
    Are Bosnians the same race as Somalis?

    Are Moroccan Berbers the same race as Malays?


    Conversely: are all brown people Muslim (as you seem to suggest)?
    Or: Are all Muslims brown people?
    Logic fail. I said *in this country* muslims are highly likely to be brown people originating from India/Pakistan, so that *in this country* the objects of anti-Islamism and of anti-subcontinentism have a 95%+ overlap. It is therefore right to be highly suspicious of anyone *in this country* who claims to be anti-Islam purely because he questions many of the tenets of the Quran, unless he also has strong opinions about, let's say, the Analects of Confucius.
    Logic fail. Not all brown people even in this country are Muslim. Not even all brown people from the subcontinent.

    Conversely, not all Muslims are brown people.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    So if you’re working minimum wage, and getting housing benefit, in London, you can possibly be a net contributor?
    Pepole in London get a disproportionate amount of benefits due to the high rents , get them on the bus to somewhere cheaper and let them pay their own rent. I have to pay huge taxes so people can live in London.
    You are Dame Shirley Porter AICMFP. DSP led the Tory Westminster council and came up with the brilliant wheeze of shipping out poorer people who might vote Labour. She is more famous for selling cemeteries for 5p each.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    malcolmg said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    It is about context, innit. In this country, you can pinpoint the geographical origin and skin colour of someone with near certainty if he is described as muslim. In Mecca at the Hajj, say, or at the World Council of Islam if there is such a thing, it is rather less of a clue.

    And race isn't much of an actual thing in any circumstances anyway.
    Are Bosnians the same race as Somalis?

    Are Moroccan Berbers the same race as Malays?


    Conversely: are all brown people Muslim (as you seem to suggest)?
    Or: Are all Muslims brown people?
    Does anyone give a toss
    Some people do.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    I am a big fan of the TMO in rugby, but VAR is a disaster.

    We wuz robbed...
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    viewcode said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    viewcode said:



    The standard for conviction is beyond reasonable doubt. The standard for bringing it to the attention of [whoever] for criminal trial is a prima facie level of evidence that the person has committed a crime. As to your contention that no jury would convict, I'm happy to test that by letting it go to trial and see what they would say. Maybe they'll surprise you, as Clive Ponting so demonstrated.

    You can sneak to whomever you like for whatever you like, the only bound being that your evidence is not so weak that you are wasting police time by advancing it. The DPP must satisfy himorherself that there is a reasonable chance of getting a conviction *and* that it is in the public interest to prosecute. On the first, there probably isn't, and on the second I'd expect the DPP to be wary of being used as a tool in a political battle. Not saying it won't happen (see under Huhne) but it's odds agin (see under Johnson, B.)
    To your second point (DPP wary of being used as a tool in a political battle) I would hope s/he would find the courage appropriate to the post, and there is an obvious recent (US) precedent with the investigation of Clinton's emails. To your first point (reasonable chance of getting a conviction), I think it would get past a jury.

    https://www.kingsleynapley.co.uk/insights/blogs/criminal-law-blog/prosecution-failures-assessing-the-reasons

    The conviction rate in Crown Court trials, excluding guilty plea cases, is *under 33%.* I the other over 66% a paid professional must have thought there was a reasonable chance of conviction, and got it wrong. Your and my amateur assessments are therefore of negligible value.

    The Clinton email case is just so far away from Gove doing a couple of lines that I don't know where to start with it.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    This is why Britain is held back - we pick PMs based on whether they did a bit of prop back in the 90s or not before they were even an MP.

    Any we end up with retarded droids like Brown and May who drive the country into a ditch with their limited thinking.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    viewcode said:



    The standard for conviction is beyond reasonable doubt. The standard for bringing it to the attention of [whoever] for criminal trial is a prima facie level of evidence that the person has committed a crime. As to your contention that no jury would convict, I'm happy to test that by letting it go to trial and see what they would say. Maybe they'll surprise you, as Clive Ponting so demonstrated.

    Actually that's not true.

    You've missed out the public interest element as well.

    4.2 The Full Code Test has two stages: (i) the evidential stage; followed by (ii) the public interest stage.

    4.7 The finding that there is a realistic prospect of conviction is based on the prosecutor’s objective assessment of the evidence, including the impact of any defence and any other information that the suspect has put forward or on which they might rely. It means that an objective, impartial and reasonable jury or bench of magistrates or judge hearing a case alone, properly directed and acting in accordance with the law, is more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge alleged. This is a different test from the one that the criminal courts themselves must apply. A court may only convict if it is sure that the defendant is guilty.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981


    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    It is about context, innit. In this country, you can pinpoint the geographical origin and skin colour of someone with near certainty if he is described as muslim. In Mecca at the Hajj, say, or at the World Council of Islam if there is such a thing, it is rather less of a clue.

    And race isn't much of an actual thing in any circumstances anyway.
    Are Bosnians the same race as Somalis?

    Are Moroccan Berbers the same race as Malays?


    Conversely: are all brown people Muslim (as you seem to suggest)?
    Or: Are all Muslims brown people?
    Logic fail. I said *in this country* muslims are highly likely to be brown people originating from India/Pakistan, so that *in this country* the objects of anti-Islamism and of anti-subcontinentism have a 95%+ overlap. It is therefore right to be highly suspicious of anyone *in this country* who claims to be anti-Islam purely because he questions many of the tenets of the Quran, unless he also has strong opinions about, let's say, the Analects of Confucius.
    Logic fail. Not all brown people even in this country are Muslim. Not even all brown people from the subcontinent.

    Conversely, not all Muslims are brown people.
    No, logic fail by you. I did not say "all muslims are x", I very carefully said "a very high proportion of muslims in this country are x".

    Richard Reid the shoe bomber was a whitey muslim.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    I heartily approve of the New Order reference ...
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683
    Why did Gove even bring this up to start with? Because he's wedded to the truth at all costs, to make himself look groovy? Why?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679

    I heartily approve of the New Order reference ...

    Yay! someone understood the reference.

    My musical references are just too damn subtle for the masses.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    malcolmg said:

    One of the things I actually quite like about the leadership contest is that all the candidates have expressed their Brexit plans based on their area of specialism, so Javid has spoken of solving the border issue, Leadom has spoken about how to start getting the necessary legislation through parliament, and so forth. None is the entire picture, but working together as a coordinated team it actually gives me confidence that Brexit can be handled successfully.

    you are easily fooled by idiots
    You lead a sad and bitter life. Go outside take in the beauty of your surroundings, be less of a dick. It'll do you the world of good.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited June 2019

    Why did Gove even bring this up to start with? Because he's wedded to the truth at all costs, to make himself look groovy? Why?

    Because team Boris was about to leak - they don’t want debates and certainly not with Gove in as their man is crap.

    A coronation before Boris has to face a live interview is their goal.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    Ishmael_Z said:


    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    It is about context, innit. In this country, you can pinpoint the geographical origin and skin colour of someone with near certainty if he is described as muslim. In Mecca at the Hajj, say, or at the World Council of Islam if there is such a thing, it is rather less of a clue.

    And race isn't much of an actual thing in any circumstances anyway.
    Are Bosnians the same race as Somalis?

    Are Moroccan Berbers the same race as Malays?


    Conversely: are all brown people Muslim (as you seem to suggest)?
    Or: Are all Muslims brown people?
    Logic fail. I said *in this country* muslims are highly likely to be brown people originating from India/Pakistan, so that *in this country* the objects of anti-Islamism and of anti-subcontinentism have a 95%+ overlap. It is therefore right to be highly suspicious of anyone *in this country* who claims to be anti-Islam purely because he questions many of the tenets of the Quran, unless he also has strong opinions about, let's say, the Analects of Confucius.
    Logic fail. Not all brown people even in this country are Muslim. Not even all brown people from the subcontinent.

    Conversely, not all Muslims are brown people.
    No, logic fail by you. I did not say "all muslims are x", I very carefully said "a very high proportion of muslims in this country are x".

    Richard Reid the shoe bomber was a whitey muslim.
    Somalis like Sir Mo are from Africa, NOT the Subcontinent. And then there are the Nigerians (or northern Nigerians to be more precise).
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    My musical references are just too damn subtle for the masses.

    If that's a Depeche Mode attempt, it's really clumsy...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679

    Why did Gove even bring this up to start with? Because he's wedded to the truth at all costs, to make himself look groovy? Why?

    Mr Gove, 51, made his admission before the publication of Michael Gove: A Man in a Hurry, a biography by the journalist Owen Bennett. The book claims that Mr Gove first confessed to his past use of cocaine to advisers during the 2016 Conservative leadership election, in which he finished third. He was allegedly advised against admitting to it in public and told to avoid answering questions about drug use.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-confesses-to-taking-cocaine-c03h3rjmg
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    I heartily approve of the New Order reference ...

    Confusion...
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    I heartily approve of the New Order reference ...

    Yay! someone understood the reference.

    My musical references are just too damn subtle for the masses.
    Ed M would get it too...

    https://twitter.com/IAmBeckish/status/1137714596637237249
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    malcolmg said:

    One of the things I actually quite like about the leadership contest is that all the candidates have expressed their Brexit plans based on their area of specialism, so Javid has spoken of solving the border issue, Leadom has spoken about how to start getting the necessary legislation through parliament, and so forth. None is the entire picture, but working together as a coordinated team it actually gives me confidence that Brexit can be handled successfully.

    you are easily fooled by idiots
    All these people have been at the Brexit coalface, it would be improbable that they did not come away with useful knowledge.
    It's not a bad point, but there are precedents for spending time in a Ministry and coming out with no increased knowledge. I think Gavin Williamson did not learn much, and Bob Ainsworth (another former Minister of Defence) did not distinguish himself. However Edwina Currie, John Selwyn Gummer, William Hague and (as NPXMP points out) Michael Gove did apply thenselves, and Karen Bradley at NI is showing every sign of learning.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    I will make your day , you are talking bollox , Islam is not a race it is a religion.
    Where do you stand on Judaism on the same point?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    Scott_P said:

    My musical references are just too damn subtle for the masses.

    If that's a Depeche Mode attempt, it's really clumsy...
    Strange-Gove
    Strange highs and strange lows
    Strange-Gove
    That's how my Gove goes

    :)
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    kle4 said:

    40 is middle aged. 25 is young. In between is in your prime.

    Not that I am biased, at 32.

    Indeed.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    edited June 2019

    Scott_P said:

    My musical references are just too damn subtle for the masses.

    If that's a Depeche Mode attempt, it's really clumsy...
    Strange-Gove
    Strange highs and strange lows
    Strange-Gove
    That's how my Gove goes

    :)
    Personal Rory
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Ishmael_Z said:

    viewcode said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    viewcode said:



    The standard for conviction is beyond reasonable doubt. The standard for bringing it to the attention of [whoever] for criminal trial is a prima facie level of evidence that the person has committed a crime. As to your contention that no jury would convict, I'm happy to test that by letting it go to trial and see what they would say. Maybe they'll surprise you, as Clive Ponting so demonstrated.

    You can sneak to whomever you like for whatever you like, the only bound being that your evidence is not so weak that you are wasting police time by advancing it. The DPP must satisfy himorherself that there is a reasonable chance of getting a conviction *and* that it is in the public interest to prosecute. On the first, there probably isn't, and on the second I'd expect the DPP to be wary of being used as a tool in a political battle. Not saying it won't happen (see under Huhne) but it's odds agin (see under Johnson, B.)
    To your second point (DPP wary of being used as a tool in a political battle) I would hope s/he would find the courage appropriate to the post, and there is an obvious recent (US) precedent with the investigation of Clinton's emails. To your first point (reasonable chance of getting a conviction), I think it would get past a jury.

    https://www.kingsleynapley.co.uk/insights/blogs/criminal-law-blog/prosecution-failures-assessing-the-reasons

    The conviction rate in Crown Court trials, excluding guilty plea cases, is *under 33%.* I the other over 66% a paid professional must have thought there was a reasonable chance of conviction, and got it wrong. Your and my amateur assessments are therefore of negligible value.

    The Clinton email case is just so far away from Gove doing a couple of lines that I don't know where to start with it.
    The Clinton case regarded her storage of confidential emails on a private server. The Gove case regarded his use of an illegal drug. Both were a violation of the law, both were arguably victimless, and both required considerable investigation. The only differences are that Clinton's behavior was a security risk, but Gove's drug use was obviously a blackmail risk when unadmitted, so the difference is not as great as one might think.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Never seen it. I would have done if it had actually been about trainspotting.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    So Andrea Leadsom now has less than 22 hours to ensure at least 8 X MPs back her (including herself) and is still three short but is *still* layable at 9/1 on Betfair right now.

    Utter madness. I've literally run out of money to put down against it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Mark Harper says if he is elected Tory leader he would not commit to leave the EU by the end of October but would set May 2020 as the departure deadline instead and thus ask for a further 6 month extension if needed
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Pulpstar said:
    Somewhat plausible. Although after a campaign, I would expect it to revert a lit to L:ab/Con
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    edited June 2019

    Yes, but if you're Jeremy Corbyn and you've just won a General Election then you can expropriate as many buy-to-lets as you like at below market value, by virtue of passing an Act of Parliament permitting this. It's exactly the same thing as has been proposed with respect to utility renationalisation - inventing a range of penalties (e.g. for failure to top up pension funds, or to sufficiently invest in infrastructure, or whatever other excuses Chancellor McDonnell decides to name,) so as to justify paying shareholders only a percentage of the value of their property - so why wouldn't Labour do it to the widely detested rentier landlords as well?

    That's one of the first things to look out for if, as seems likely, the Tories get beat in the next GE. It might even make it into the Labour manifesto.

    It sounds like your journey towards embracing a modest reversal of the Thatcher Blair consensus in favour of those ill served by it is at quite an early stage.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    So Andrea Leadsom now has less than 22 hours to ensure at least 8 X MPs back her (including herself) and is still three short but is *still* layable at 9/1 on Betfair right now.

    Utter madness. I've literally run out of money to put down against it.

    Somewhere out there is a man with a humungous green number next to Leadsom remortgaging his castle.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited June 2019

    Pulpstar said:
    Somewhat plausible. Although after a campaign, I would expect it to revert a lit to L:ab/Con
    That is the lowest Brexit vote share for a few weeks. Most of the survey was conducted before Peterborough result was known.I stongly suspect that a GE would see both main parties well above 30%. - ie their total combined vote share would be similar to 2015.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Just watching Marr interviewing McVey. I really hope she wins. Labour landslide.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    Mr Gove, 51, made his admission before the publication of Michael Gove: A Man in a Hurry, a biography by the journalist Owen Bennett. The book claims that Mr Gove first confessed to his past use of cocaine to advisers during the 2016 Conservative leadership election, in which he finished third. He was allegedly advised against admitting to it in public and told to avoid answering questions about drug use.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-confesses-to-taking-cocaine-c03h3rjmg

    But why did he blab to his advisers? I think that was more the question.

    I guess only he knows.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Pulpstar said:

    So Andrea Leadsom now has less than 22 hours to ensure at least 8 X MPs back her (including herself) and is still three short but is *still* layable at 9/1 on Betfair right now.

    Utter madness. I've literally run out of money to put down against it.

    Somewhere out there is a man with a humungous green number next to Leadsom remortgaging his castle.
    What’s the latest tally for MPs undeclared?

    Is there anything to stop an MP nominating more than one candidate?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    HYUFD said:

    Mark Harper says if he is elected Tory leader he would not commit to leave the EU by the end of October but would set May 2020 as the departure deadline instead and thus ask for a further 6 month extension if needed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7120141/Former-Tory-Chief-Whip-Mark-Harper-says-Boris-Johnson-ditch-Halloween-Brexit-deadline.html
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    viewcode said:

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    I will make your day , you are talking bollox , Islam is not a race it is a religion.
    Where do you stand on Judaism on the same point?
    I am a Catholic - what race am I?

    Islam like Catholicism is the religion of over a billion people across the world of many races. Judaism is a much smaller faith whose adherents supposedly descend from Abraham and which doesn’t generally seek converts. Judaism is a race - other faiths perhaps not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Just watching Marr interviewing McVey. I really hope she wins. Labour landslide.

    Tories thought the same when Labour elected Corbyn.

    Remind me - how did that work out?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    brendan16 said:

    viewcode said:

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    I will make your day , you are talking bollox , Islam is not a race it is a religion.
    Where do you stand on Judaism on the same point?
    I am a Catholic - what race am I?

    Islam like Catholicism is the religion of over a billion people across the world of many races. Judaism is a much smaller faith whose adherents supposedly descend from Abraham and which doesn’t generally seek converts. Judaism is a race - other faiths perhaps not.
    Technically Muslims claim descent from Abraham as well.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited June 2019
    IanB2 said:

    Is there anything to stop an MP nominating more than one candidate?

    The 1922 committee.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Is there anything to stop an MP nominating more than one candidate?

    The 1922 committee.
    You’re saying it’s against the rules. Fair enough.

    It would look bad for the Tories not to have a female candidate at all in at least the first round. I’d put money on some late switches to see that she gets through.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mark Harper says if he is elected Tory leader he would not commit to leave the EU by the end of October but would set May 2020 as the departure deadline instead and thus ask for a further 6 month extension if needed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7120141/Former-Tory-Chief-Whip-Mark-Harper-says-Boris-Johnson-ditch-Halloween-Brexit-deadline.html
    Good for Glenn to have an alternative to plump for now Gove has imploded.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Sometimes I feel I've got to run away
    I've got to get away
    From the pain you drive into the heart of me
    The Gove we share seems to go nowhere
    And I've lost my light for I toss and turn - I can't sleep at night
    Once I ran to you
    now I'll run from you
    This tainted Gove you've given
    I give you all a boy could give you
    Take my tears and that's not nearly all, oh
    Tainted Gove, tainted Gove
    Now I know I've got to run away
    I've got to get away
    You don't really want it any more from me
    To make things right you need someone to hold you tight
    And you'll think Gove is to pray but
    I'm sorry I don't pray that that way
    Once I ran to you
    now I'll run from you
    This tainted Gove you've given
    I give you all a boy could give you
    Take my tears and that's not nearly all, oh
    Tainted Gove, tainted Gove
    Don't touch me please. I cannot stand the way you tease
    I Gove you though you hurt me so
    Now I'm gonna pack my things and go
    Tainted Gove, tainted Gove
    Tainted Gove, tainted Gove
    Touch me baby, tainted Gove
    Touch me baby, tainted Gove
    Tainted Gove, tainted Gove, tainted Gove

    Apologies to Soft Cell
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    Just watching Marr interviewing McVey. I really hope she wins. Labour landslide.

    The only McVey is up
    Baby
    For you and me now
    The only McVey is up
    Baby
    For you and me now
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Is there anything to stop an MP nominating more than one candidate?

    The 1922 committee.
    You’re saying it’s against the rules. Fair enough.

    It would look bad for the Tories not to have a female candidate at all in at least the first round. I’d put money on some late switches to see that she gets through.
    I don't know whether it's formally against the rules or not. I know there's a great deal more fluidity in these things among the Tories than among say, Labour, which has a written constitution. I just would have thought they would use their discretion reject a second nomination from the same person.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It'll be interesting to see how many Tory MPs endorse a candidate by the time voting takes place on Thursday.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Is there anything to stop an MP nominating more than one candidate?

    The 1922 committee.
    You’re saying it’s against the rules. Fair enough.

    It would look bad for the Tories not to have a female candidate at all in at least the first round. I’d put money on some late switches to see that she gets through.
    Esther Mcvey is closer in terms of backers.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    brendan16 said:

    viewcode said:

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    I will make your day , you are talking bollox , Islam is not a race it is a religion.
    Where do you stand on Judaism on the same point?
    I am a Catholic - what race am I?

    Islam like Catholicism is the religion of over a billion people across the world of many races. Judaism is a much smaller faith whose adherents supposedly descend from Abraham and which doesn’t generally seek converts. Judaism is a race - other faiths perhaps not.
    OK, but having said that, you need to explain the Falasha community (formerly of Ethiopia, but airlifted to Israel in the 80s I think). Then you have traditions stating that there was another Jewish temple built in Elephantine, along the Nile, after the first was destroyed, and the claims that the Ethiopian city of Axum is currently home to the Ark. Despite being majority Christian, Ethiopians still involve "Ark replicas" (Tabots) in their Timkat festival.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    So Andrea Leadsom now has less than 22 hours to ensure at least 8 X MPs back her (including herself) and is still three short but is *still* layable at 9/1 on Betfair right now.

    Utter madness. I've literally run out of money to put down against it.

    She doesn't stand a hope of being elected leader. Free money.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Is there anything to stop an MP nominating more than one candidate?

    The 1922 committee.
    You’re saying it’s against the rules. Fair enough.

    It would look bad for the Tories not to have a female candidate at all in at least the first round. I’d put money on some late switches to see that she gets through.
    Esther Mcvey is closer in terms of backers.
    Having Esther McVey on the ballot paper would be considerably more damaging for the Tories than having an all-male long list.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    brendan16 said:

    viewcode said:

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    I will make your day , you are talking bollox , Islam is not a race it is a religion.
    Where do you stand on Judaism on the same point?
    I am a Catholic - what race am I?

    Islam like Catholicism is the religion of over a billion people across the world of many races. Judaism is a much smaller faith whose adherents supposedly descend from Abraham and which doesn’t generally seek converts. Judaism is a race - other faiths perhaps not.
    Are Falasha and Kaifeng Jews part of the Judaic race?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    Just watching Marr interviewing McVey. I really hope she wins. Labour landslide.

    The only McVey is up
    Baby
    For you and me now
    The only McVey is up
    Baby
    For you and me now
    You're taking the fun out of everything
    You're making me run, when I don't want to think
    You're taking the fun out of everything
    I don't want to think at all

    There's no other McVey
    There's no other McVey
    All that you can do is watch them play
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Somewhat plausible. Although after a campaign, I would expect it to revert a lit to L:ab/Con
    That is the lowest Brexit vote share for a few weeks. Most of the survey was conducted before Peterborough result was known.I stongly suspect that a GE would see both main parties well above 30%. - ie their total combined vote share would be similar to 2015.
    Of course, the lower the Brexit Party goes in the polls, the more problematical the Tory strategy of embracing No Deal becomes. Suppose they can squeeze even a third of those Brexit Party votes in their direction. That's 6%. Can they be sure that adopting No Deal won't squeeze at least 6% of their existing supporters towards Labour and the Lib Dems?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,709

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    The subject has responded to the stimulus as expected. ;)

    The point is the moment you say "Islam isn't a race!" in response to someone complaining about someone saying something twattish or evil against Muslims, you're siding with the twats.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Just watching Marr interviewing McVey. I really hope she wins. Labour landslide.

    The only McVey is up
    Baby
    For you and me now
    The only McVey is up
    Baby
    For you and me now
    You're taking the fun out of everything
    You're making me run, when I don't want to think
    You're taking the fun out of everything
    I don't want to think at all

    There's no other McVey
    There's no other McVey
    All that you can do is watch them play
    You'll lose your mind this McVey.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,900
    HYUFD said:
    I make that a 13% swing from Conservative to Liberal Democrat which will make a lot of difference in some places. On that straight swing, Taunton Deane (current Con majority 15,887) would fall but as we know it doesn't work like that. You'd likely see more Labour tactical voting and a CON unwind to BXP so I think on those polling numbers the LDs would be up to 50-60 seats.

    I note the CON-LAB share is back up to 53% which once again rewards them with the majority of the seats - we really need to see the duopoly nearer 40% to make things interesting but I would caution against treating Baxter as gospel.

    I'd also caution about choosing leaders on the basis of which polls better and policies on the basis of which one polls best with the public.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Chris said:

    Just watching Marr interviewing McVey. I really hope she wins. Labour landslide.

    The only McVey is up
    Baby
    For you and me now
    The only McVey is up
    Baby
    For you and me now
    You're taking the fun out of everything
    You're making me run, when I don't want to think
    You're taking the fun out of everything
    I don't want to think at all

    There's no other McVey
    There's no other McVey
    All that you can do is watch them play
    You'll lose your mind this McVey.
    That's the way it Esther be.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Jesus H Christ Gove does not rhyme with love.

    Someone had to say it sorry.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    The subject has responded to the stimulus as expected. ;)

    The point is the moment you say "Islam isn't a race!" in response to someone complaining about someone saying something twattish or evil against Muslims, you're siding with the twats.
    Islam is a religion, like Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    TOPPING said:

    Jesus H Christ Gove does not rhyme with love.

    Someone had to say it sorry.

    And it’s no nay never, never no more will I back the wild Gove, no never no more.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, but if you're Jeremy Corbyn and you've just won a General Election then you can expropriate as many buy-to-lets as you like at below market value, by virtue of passing an Act of Parliament permitting this. It's exactly the same thing as has been proposed with respect to utility renationalisation - inventing a range of penalties (e.g. for failure to top up pension funds, or to sufficiently invest in infrastructure, or whatever other excuses Chancellor McDonnell decides to name,) so as to justify paying shareholders only a percentage of the value of their property - so why wouldn't Labour do it to the widely detested rentier landlords as well?

    That's one of the first things to look out for if, as seems likely, the Tories get beat in the next GE. It might even make it into the Labour manifesto.

    It sounds like your journey towards embracing a modest reversal of the Thatcher Blair consensus in favour of those ill served by it is at quite an early stage.
    I'm in favour of the mass construction of social housing. I would be in favour of renationalisation, if I thought it would achieve sufficiently valuable results in return for the outlay of capital involved. I might yet be convinced to support renationalisation in the case of the railways, through gradually bringing the franchises back into public ownership as they expire, *IF* the end model for the reconstituted BR was a not-for-profit organisation run at arms' length from Government - as distinct from something run more-or-less directly (and very, very badly) by the Transport Secretary, which is what we would probably get in fact.

    What I won't countenance is expropriation, even if the existing owners of the services and properties being targeted have been manifestly greedy or incompetent. Once you wantonly violate property rights to advance your agenda, then nobody feels safe in their ownership of anything, the incentive to invest in this country (or to keep existing investments here, rather than move them abroad to somewhere safer) evaporates, and the economy collapses. It should never be attempted.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    TOPPING said:

    Jesus H Christ Gove does not rhyme with love.

    Someone had to say it sorry.

    Depends on your UK regional accent, surely?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    malcolmg said:

    I must say @malcolmg that it is very pleasing when I see Highland Cattle grazing on the Town Moor in Newcastle. They are beautiful animals.

    Gallowgate , they are indeed , must easily be the brawest cattle in the world by a mile. Always wonderful to see one.
    They are indeed wonderful - we got some great pics of them up by Aviemore.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    He wishes he could fly away
    From all his yesterdays
    If he could, he would gladly pay
    For a McVey ticket to the moon
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:
    I make that a 13% swing from Conservative to Liberal Democrat which will make a lot of difference in some places. On that straight swing, Taunton Deane (current Con majority 15,887) would fall but as we know it doesn't work like that. You'd likely see more Labour tactical voting and a CON unwind to BXP so I think on those polling numbers the LDs would be up to 50-60 seats.

    I note the CON-LAB share is back up to 53% which once again rewards them with the majority of the seats - we really need to see the duopoly nearer 40% to make things interesting but I would caution against treating Baxter as gospel.

    I'd also caution about choosing leaders on the basis of which polls better and policies on the basis of which one polls best with the public.
    UNS is bust to begin with (as discussed in a thread last week), but there’s an additional factor that most of the extra LD vote is coming from Labour and most of the extra BXP from the Tories. The models aren’t reflecting that at all, making these seat predictions even more dodgy.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    TOPPING said:

    Jesus H Christ Gove does not rhyme with love.

    Someone had to say it sorry.

    And it’s no nay never, never no more will I back the wild Gove, no never no more.
    What's Gove got to do
    Got to do with it
    What's Gove
    But a second-hand emotion
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    Just realised we can only play silly games with the Tory candidate names "Gove" and "McVey" :)
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Hancock, baby, Hancock,
    Gimme your heart, gimme, gimme your heart
    Gimme gimme
    Hancock, baby, Hancock,
    Gimme your heart, gimme, gimme
    All your love,
    All your love.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    TOPPING said:

    Jesus H Christ Gove does not rhyme with love.

    Someone had to say it sorry.

    And it’s no nay never, never no more will I back the wild Gove, no never no more.
    What's Gove got to do
    Got to do with it
    What's Gove
    But a second-hand emotion
    Tainted Gove.......
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    Just realised we can only play silly games with the Tory candidate names "Gove" and "McVey" :)

    And Hancock!

    I'm now trying to think of something for The Saj
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:
    I make that a 13% swing from Conservative to Liberal Democrat which will make a lot of difference in some places. On that straight swing, Taunton Deane (current Con majority 15,887) would fall but as we know it doesn't work like that. You'd likely see more Labour tactical voting and a CON unwind to BXP so I think on those polling numbers the LDs would be up to 50-60 seats.

    I note the CON-LAB share is back up to 53% which once again rewards them with the majority of the seats - we really need to see the duopoly nearer 40% to make things interesting but I would caution against treating Baxter as gospel.

    I'd also caution about choosing leaders on the basis of which polls better and policies on the basis of which one polls best with the public.
    I would expect Labour and Tory support at the next GE to match the circa 65% achieved in 2010 and 2015.UKIP's withdrawal from hundreds of seats in 2017 did have the effect of artifically boosting their combined vote share.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    Hancock, baby, Hancock,
    Gimme your heart, gimme, gimme your heart
    Gimme gimme
    Hancock, baby, Hancock,
    Gimme your heart, gimme, gimme
    All your love,
    All your love.

    OK, Hancock too!

    One Matt in Hancock
    And the world's your oyster
    The bars are temples but the pearls ain't free
    You'll find a god in every Tory cloister
    And if you're lucky then the god's a she
    I can feel Theresa sliding up to me
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Hancock, baby, Hancock,
    Gimme your heart, gimme, gimme your heart
    Gimme gimme
    Hancock, baby, Hancock,
    Gimme your heart, gimme, gimme
    All your love,
    All your love.

    Finally, a Club Med reference on PB!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Just realised we can only play silly games with the Tory candidate names "Gove" and "McVey" :)

    And Hancock!

    I'm now trying to think of something for The Saj

    Just realised we can only play silly games with the Tory candidate names "Gove" and "McVey" :)

    And Hancock!

    I'm now trying to think of something for The Saj
    Every little thing (he) does is Sajid.
    Everything he do just turns me on
    Even though my life before was tragic
    Now I know my love for him goes on...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Steak night for the first time in a while. Made the mistake of getting filet mignon. Went rare and it's from a very reputable establishment so it should be pretty much the best available. I've realised it's the blandest and mushiest cut of beef. I'm back on the rib-eye train.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449

    TOPPING said:

    Jesus H Christ Gove does not rhyme with love.

    Someone had to say it sorry.

    And it’s no nay never, never no more will I back the wild Gove, no never no more.
    What's Gove got to do
    Got to do with it
    What's Gove
    But a second-hand emotion referendum
    Fixed that for you
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    OK. Got it:

    Saj Against the Machine

    I'll stop now.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884


    Hancock, baby, Hancock,
    Gimme your heart, gimme, gimme your heart
    Gimme gimme
    Hancock, baby, Hancock,
    Gimme your heart, gimme, gimme
    All your love,
    All your love.

    Finally, a Club Med reference on PB!
    Actually:


    Hancock, baby, Hancock
    Gyimah your heart, Gyimah, Gyimah your heart
    Gyimah Gyimah
    Hancock, baby, Hancock
    Gyimah your heart, Gyimah, Gyimah
    All your Gove
    All your Gove
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,709

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    The subject has responded to the stimulus as expected. ;)

    The point is the moment you say "Islam isn't a race!" in response to someone complaining about someone saying something twattish or evil against Muslims, you're siding with the twats.
    Islam is a religion, like Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism.
    I suspect the honourable gentleman is missing the point, and refer him to my previous response.

    In addition: Judaism is also a religion: and I'm far from certain that (as TUD points out below), that Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) are of the same race as most other Jews - despite AIUI being officially recognised as being Jewish.

    If a Chinese Jew gets assaulted because he is Jewish, I think we'd agree that is anti-Semtism.

    I look forward to you saying that Antisemitism isn't racism ...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    The subject has responded to the stimulus as expected. ;)

    The point is the moment you say "Islam isn't a race!" in response to someone complaining about someone saying something twattish or evil against Muslims, you're siding with the twats.
    Islam is a religion, like Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism.
    I suspect the honourable gentleman is missing the point, and refer him to my previous response.

    In addition: Judaism is also a religion: and I'm far from certain that (as TUD points out below), that Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) are of the same race as most other Jews - despite AIUI being officially recognised as being Jewish.

    If a Chinese Jew gets assaulted because he is Jewish, I think we'd agree that is anti-Semtism.

    I look forward to you saying that Antisemitism isn't racism ...
    Anti-Semitism is perpetrated against Semites, who are a race.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Sorry, but I just have to add one more:

    In the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia
    On the trail of the Loathsome Pine
    In the pale moonshine our hearts entwine
    Where you carved your name and I carved mine.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    MaxPB said:

    Steak night for the first time in a while. Made the mistake of getting filet mignon. Went rare and it's from a very reputable establishment so it should be pretty much the best available. I've realised it's the blandest and mushiest cut of beef. I'm back on the rib-eye train.

    It's all about the fat marbling.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    The subject has responded to the stimulus as expected. ;)

    The point is the moment you say "Islam isn't a race!" in response to someone complaining about someone saying something twattish or evil against Muslims, you're siding with the twats.
    Islam is a religion, like Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism.
    I suspect the honourable gentleman is missing the point, and refer him to my previous response.

    In addition: Judaism is also a religion: and I'm far from certain that (as TUD points out below), that Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) are of the same race as most other Jews - despite AIUI being officially recognised as being Jewish.

    I also said above:

    The Falasha community of Ethiopia, were airlifted to Israel (in the 80s I think). Then you have traditions stating that there was another Jewish temple built in Elephantine, along the Nile, after the first was destroyed, and the claims that the Ethiopian city of Axum is currently home to the Ark. Despite being majority Christian, Ethiopians still involve "Ark replicas" (Tabots) in their Timkat festival.
This discussion has been closed.