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  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    India need to start taking wickets. I think Australia are in with a shout here.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Still no tennis player born in the 90s has won a major yet.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683
    Yep, Gove's finished. The revelation that he did that crap CH4 comedy show with David Baddiel can't be undone.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    MaxPB said:

    India need to start taking wickets. I think Australia are in with a shout here.

    India still 1.12
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490
    One of the things I actually quite like about the leadership contest is that all the candidates have expressed their Brexit plans based on their area of specialism, so Javid has spoken of solving the border issue, Leadom has spoken about how to start getting the necessary legislation through parliament, and so forth. None is the entire picture, but working together as a coordinated team it actually gives me confidence that Brexit can be handled successfully.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Commentators curse for Australia. Love it!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Javid clearly indicating he won't back Gove after his drug revelations I think... He'll recommend Hunt when he is knocked out.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    Raab must be Begbie. Presumably Boris is Sickboy, and Hancock is Spud.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    I tend to divide up ages into 15 year periods.

    0-15 child
    15-30 young adult
    30-45?
    45-60 middle aged
    60-75 silver surfer
    75-90 old
    90+ good for their age

    Doing cocaine in your 30s is after your young adult phase.

    Just a matter of interest, when do you make the jump to middle aged: is it on your 45th or your 46th birthday?

    Asking for a friend
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    20 runs off 15 balls and Aussies need same as India off last 10 overs
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    She’s a clueless moron .

    Let’s hope she never intends breeding with her equally vile husband .
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,712
    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    Surely this makes no sense at all.

    If we don't pay the £39bn (or part of it) then that is a one-off saving.

    Whereas if you give a pay rise that increases the cost base going forward indefinitely.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    viewcode said:

    I tend to divide up ages into 15 year periods.

    0-15 child
    15-30 young adult
    30-45?
    45-60 middle aged
    60-75 silver surfer
    75-90 old
    90+ good for their age

    Doing cocaine in your 30s is after your young adult phase.

    IMHO

    0-15: child
    15-25: young adult
    25-35: early middle age
    35-45: middle age
    45-55: late middle age
    55-65: early old
    65-75: old
    75-85: very old
    85-dead: frail elderly


    I prefer Verulamius' age categories
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    I tend to divide up ages into 15 year periods.

    0-15 child
    15-30 young adult
    30-45?
    45-60 middle aged
    60-75 silver surfer
    75-90 old
    90+ good for their age

    Doing cocaine in your 30s is after your young adult phase.

    IMHO

    0-15: child
    15-25: young adult
    25-35: early middle age
    35-45: middle age
    45-55: late middle age
    55-65: early old
    65-75: old
    75-85: very old
    85-dead: frail elderly


    I prefer Verulamius' age categories
    "30-45 = ?"

    Not sure about that...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    nico67 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    She’s a clueless moron .

    Let’s hope she never intends breeding with her equally vile husband .
    She's 51.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    I tend to divide up ages into 15 year periods.

    0-15 child
    15-30 young adult
    30-45?
    45-60 middle aged
    60-75 silver surfer
    75-90 old
    90+ good for their age

    Doing cocaine in your 30s is after your young adult phase.

    IMHO

    0-15: child
    15-25: young adult
    25-35: early middle age
    35-45: middle age
    45-55: late middle age
    55-65: early old
    65-75: old
    75-85: very old
    85-dead: frail elderly


    I prefer Verulamius' age categories
    I go with the traditional medical model. Senile means older than the examining doctor.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    nico67 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    She’s a clueless moron .

    Let’s hope she never intends breeding with her equally vile husband .
    How do these people get selected? What on earth was the competition like?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Jessica Elgot

    Verified account

    @jessicaelgot
    5h5 hours ago
    More Jessica Elgot Retweeted Ridge on Sunday
    Let’s be clear about what this change would mean - it would force women whose babies have a foetal abnormality detected after 12 weeks, eg like Edwards Syndrome (which causes death in ~95% of cases within a year) to give birth to their babies and watch them die
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    She’s a clueless moron .

    Let’s hope she never intends breeding with her equally vile husband .
    She's 51.
    She has aged well. All the ugliness is on the inside.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    It's a bit difficult to tell if ther's a problem with the cladding from here, no?

    If the building's fundamentally on fire, it is going to burn down sooner or later. it's about timings.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Speaking of Tameside, Widnes and Sunderland, I would love to hear more from those hoping to be next PM as well as the opposition parties about what on earth they hope to do to start increasing the opportunities in these areas.

    There are three things for me that are critical

    1 - education needs to be valued more greatly by the local populations and vastly improved

    2 - devolution of powers neeeds to happen on a grand scale, including the ability to raise money and spend it how the locals desire, along with the associated risks being borne locally

    3 - vast investment in transport to and between the regions, HS2 must happen in parallel with NPR to link the cities but intra urban investment is also badly lacking.

    Even with those delivered, I struggle to see much of a positive future for many of the towns and cities whose reason for existing has long since gone.

    Maybe the idea of managed decline may at some point have to be on the table for some places.

    1. Does any other country have a phrase similar to, “too clever by half”? Educational opportunities are there so I’m hardly clear what you mean by vastly improved. It comes to desire, desire to learn and desire to move away from culturally and emotionally familiar areas to better yourself. Now, you might say that there are a wider range of factors here, and I wouldn’t completely disagree but, for example, it’s never been easier to get into university.

    2. It will never happen, if only because the moment there are meaningful divergences the cry of “postcode lottery and something must be done” goes up. People love the idea of devolution but too often it seems to be reduced to “local towns for local people” and professional level whining.

    3. It’s long been a state fixation that links are too and from London (see also France and Paris), vertical rather than horizontal. The problem is that London is so far ahead of the rest of the UK in the strength of its economy that the business case for any transport infrastructure involving London is almost always significantly better. Plus national news journalist live in London so it’s easy to pick holes.

    Managed decline is interesting. One could have made the same point about Liverpool 30 years ago. Although I struggle to see a way back for the Lancashire ex-mill towns. The other side of the coin are growth restrictions. I’ve read (but cannot vouch for) the idea that Cambridge would quickly grow to the size of Manchester with limited restraint. Equally, what is the natural size of London? Certainly larger than now.

    I don’t have answers but equally I don’t think people do. I’d be loath to return to the 1950s and what David Kynaston calls the era of the “activators”. In retrospect they got virtually nothing right.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    She’s a clueless moron .

    Let’s hope she never intends breeding with her equally vile husband .
    She's 51.
    The world breathes a sigh of relief !
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    She’s a clueless moron .

    Let’s hope she never intends breeding with her equally vile husband .
    She's 51.
    She has aged well. All the ugliness is on the inside.
    Sure, I think the children ship has sailed for her though.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    MikeL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    Surely this makes no sense at all.

    If we don't pay the £39bn (or part of it) then that is a one-off saving.

    Whereas if you give a pay rise that increases the cost base going forward indefinitely.
    The £39 billion is a staged payment tailing off over a couple of decades, not a lump sum.

    Not defending McVey though, it is just one of many half baked Brexit wheezes that collapse when breathed upon by intelligent life.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    India scored 116 off last 10 overs

    Aussies need 118 off 11
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    It's a bit difficult to tell if ther's a problem with the cladding from here, no?

    If the building's fundamentally on fire, it is going to burn down sooner or later. it's about timings.
    But a modern building, built to current building regulations should never engulf like that, surely?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    She’s a clueless moron .

    Let’s hope she never intends breeding with her equally vile husband .
    She's 51.
    She has aged well. All the ugliness is on the inside.
    Sure, I think the children ship has sailed for her though.
    https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/1136324823406252032
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    edited June 2019
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    She’s a clueless moron .

    Let’s hope she never intends breeding with her equally vile husband .
    She's 51.
    She has aged well. All the ugliness is on the inside.
    Sure, I think the children ship has sailed for her though.
    https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/1136324823406252032
    Nature is very sexist about male and female fertility !

    Eeh read the rest of it. Not sure childbirth at 51 is a great idea to be honest..
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    justin124 said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Gove could still be prosecuted fot taking drugs back in the 1990s. No statutory limitation would apply to the offence.

    If you feel so strongly about it, make a complaint to the police.
    It is a story the Opposition parties can reasonably run with. How could the authorities justify NOT taking action. Showing preference to Gove and his ilk clearly brings the law into disrepute.
    I don't think it would pass the evidentiary test, so am not sure how you're even getting to a prosecution.
    I am geninely confused as to how you think a public confession does not pass the evidentiary test, and also why you think it would not constitute sufficient reason to being a private prosecution.
    If someone said “I used to drink and drive all the time 20 years ago, but now I always take a taxi home”, would that constitute sufficient evidence to prosecute them now for past offences of drinking and driving?
    IANAL, but I would say "yes".

    This site often baffles me with its opinions. I accept that you may find your argument convincing, but please accept that not only do I disagree with it, I am genuinely baffled by your argument. Bad people do bad things, boast that they have done so, and yet do not get arrested? Why is this not obviously wrong?
    I'm sure that this has already been answered, but here's the problem:

    People lie all the time.

    The standard for criminal prosecution is "beyond reasonable doubt". So, the CPS brings a case against said "drink driver". When it gets to court, he pleads not guilty.

    The only evidence against him is his previous statements. He says "I exaggerated. While I drank and drove, it was never after more than two glasses of wine."

    No jury or magistrate will ever find him guilty because there's simply not enough proof.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    She’s a clueless moron .

    Let’s hope she never intends breeding with her equally vile husband .
    She's 51.
    She has aged well. All the ugliness is on the inside.
    Sure, I think the children ship has sailed for her though.
    https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/1136324823406252032
    Nature is very sexist about male and female fertility !
    She's 51.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Captain Sandpaper's wicket gone.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Oz falling apart !
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    On the subject of fertility, the 2001 Derby winner is still producing Derby winners 16 years later.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    justin124 said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Gove could still be prosecuted fot taking drugs back in the 1990s. No statutory limitation would apply to the offence.

    If you feel so strongly about it, make a complaint to the police.
    It is a story the Opposition parties can reasonably run with. How could the authorities justify NOT taking action. Showing preference to Gove and his ilk clearly brings the law into disrepute.
    I don't think it would pass the evidentiary test, so am not sure how you're even getting to a prosecution.
    I am geninely confused as to how you think a public confession does not pass the evidentiary test, and also why you think it would not constitute sufficient reason to being a private prosecution.
    If someone said “I used to drink and drive all the time 20 years ago, but now I always take a taxi home”, would that constitute sufficient evidence to prosecute them now for past offences of drinking and driving?
    IANAL, but I would say "yes".

    This site often baffles me with its opinions. I accept that you may find your argument convincing, but please accept that not only do I disagree with it, I am genuinely baffled by your argument. Bad people do bad things, boast that they have done so, and yet do not get arrested? Why is this not obviously wrong?
    I'm sure that this has already been answered, but here's the problem:

    People lie all the time.

    The standard for criminal prosecution is "beyond reasonable doubt". So, the CPS brings a case against said "drink driver". When it gets to court, he pleads not guilty.

    The only evidence against him is his previous statements. He says "I exaggerated. While I drank and drove, it was never after more than two glasses of wine."

    No jury or magistrate will ever find him guilty because there's simply not enough proof.
    In Gove's case :"Someone gave me some white powder which I snorted. I didn't know what it was but was frightened of appearing unsophisticated by not knowing, so I snorted it without asking. I thought that in the political context that line of defence would make me look weaker than the act itself, so I made the best fist I could by "admitting" the offence.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    tlg86 said:

    On the subject of fertility, the 2001 Derby winner is still producing Derby winners 16 years later.

    Galileo's spunk is worth a mint.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    edited June 2019

    It's a bit difficult to tell if ther's a problem with the cladding from here, no?

    If the building's fundamentally on fire, it is going to burn down sooner or later. it's about timings.
    But a modern building, built to current building regulations should never engulf like that, surely?
    Are we talking about a certified and occupied building, or a construction site?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    On the subject of fertility, the 2001 Derby winner is still producing Derby winners 16 years later.

    Galileo's spunk is worth a mint.
    £500,000 for him to have a go on your mare. :open_mouth:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    Sandpit said:

    It's a bit difficult to tell if ther's a problem with the cladding from here, no?

    If the building's fundamentally on fire, it is going to burn down sooner or later. it's about timings.
    But a modern building, built to current building regulations should never engulf like that, surely?
    Are we talking about a certified and occupied building, or a construction site?
    I think it's occupied already - on hearing the story, I thought it was the upcoming Riverside Development east of Renwick Road (there's even going to be a new train station here).
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    On the subject of fertility, the 2001 Derby winner is still producing Derby winners 16 years later.

    Galileo's spunk is worth a mint.
    And three cheers for Weatherbys for recognising natural coverings only when every bloody showjumper you see is the result of AI or cloning. Must have made a lot of difference to his happiness over the years.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    Australia collapsing faster than the Pakistanis in December 1971...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    BBC News just reported the Barking fire in its headlines.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited June 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    Still no tennis player born in the 90s has won a major yet.

    There have been seven.

    Edit ... Eight after yesterday.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:
    £240k for a one bedroomed flat? Barking seems appropriate on so many levels.
    And the floor plan has no numbers on it, nowhere on the ad does it say how many square feet you get for your £240k in Barking. I’m going to guess it’s closer to 400 than 500.
    That's £580/sq ft (or €700).

    For that price, you can get a decent apartment in a nice part of Berlin. You can even get a pretty decent place in Los Angeles.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    edited June 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    On housing benefit.
    If it didn't exist, the aggregate number of properties and aggregate number of people needing to be housed wouldn't change.
    Since landlords would still wish to avoid voids I assume, wouldn't 'ceteris paribus' the average rent simply fall and occupancy remain unchanged therefore benefiting the taxpayer by billions ? Also the average renter.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Foxy said:

    Raab must be Begbie. Presumably Boris is Sickboy, and Hancock is Spud.
    Boris is Renton. He's the one who ratted out his mates and fucked off with the money.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    On the subject of fertility, the 2001 Derby winner is still producing Derby winners 16 years later.

    Galileo's spunk is worth a mint.
    Yes, but what about the horse?

    Ah, my coat... :)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    On the subject of fertility, the 2001 Derby winner is still producing Derby winners 16 years later.

    Galileo's spunk is worth a mint.
    Magnifico.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,710
    viewcode said:

    I tend to divide up ages into 15 year periods.

    0-15 child
    15-30 young adult
    30-45?
    45-60 middle aged
    60-75 silver surfer
    75-90 old
    90+ good for their age

    Doing cocaine in your 30s is after your young adult phase.

    IMHO

    0-15: child
    15-25: young adult
    25-35: early middle age
    35-45: middle age
    45-55: late middle age
    55-65: early old
    65-75: old
    75-85: very old
    85-dead: frail elderly


    This makes me middle middle age. I'm not sure if I like this.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    So if you’re working minimum wage, and getting housing benefit, in London, you can possibly be a net contributor?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    brendan16 said:

    Fenman said:

    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Meeks,

    It may be unfair, but I suspect you'd be shocked how disliked London is in the rest of the country. And it extends across all classes of voters.

    I’m well aware how much provincials hate the people who fund their lifestyle, as are most Londoners. That’s why a mayor who speaks for them in the face of an onslaught from angry freeloaders is doing ok.
    I work in London but live in Woking. Does that make me a hardworker or a free-loader?
    You make a valid point though.

    London's wealth isn't entirely generated by Londoners - but the entire south east region and beyond as well as the investment the Government has put in in infrastructure such as London transport. Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    It wasn't that long ago Grayling and Khan were heralding Crossrail 2 - a £40 billion scheme to make the journeys of commuters from Twickenham, Wimbledon and Surbiton into work easier. I expect residents of Tamside, Widnes and Sunderland would love that sort of cash spent on their routes to work.
    Good point. But Brexit should solve any problems getting to work in Sunderland
    And the points I raised were of course part of the reason many voted for Brexit - cos Sunderland barely gets a tiny percentage of the transport investment Surbiton does.
    What is the best way to work out where money would be spent?

    Because public transport in London runs with much lower subsidies per mile of passenger transport than that in Sunderland.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Still no tennis player born in the 90s has won a major yet.

    There have been seven.
    WHO ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    On housing benefit.
    If it didn't exist, the aggregate number of properties and aggregate number of people needing to be housed wouldn't change.
    Since landlords would still wish to avoid voids I assume, wouldn't 'ceteris paribus' the average rent simply fall and occupancy remain unchanged therefore benefiting the taxpayer by billions ? Also the average renter.
    Absolutely correct.

    Housing benefit is a benefit to landlords, not tenants. As it does not increase the amount of housing in existence, all it does is increase price.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    Sandpit said:

    Great, so Labour simply need to show evidence of this, and the person concerned making a public statement about the unacceptability of their previous views.

    A sincere apology IS the evidence. Coupled with no re-offending. Public is appropriate if it's a public figure. All good. Going beyond that risks straying into McCarthy territory.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Still no tennis player born in the 90s has won a major yet.

    There have been seven.
    WHO ?
    I guess he means females/doubles.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    justin124 said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Gove could still be prosecuted fot taking drugs back in the 1990s. No statutory limitation would apply to the offence.

    If you feel so strongly about it, make a complaint to the police.
    It is a story the Opposition parties can reasonably run with. How could the authorities justify NOT taking action. Showing preference to Gove and his ilk clearly brings the law into disrepute.
    I don't think it would pass the evidentiary test, so am not sure how you're even getting to a prosecution.
    I am geninely confused as to how you think a public confession does not pass the evidentiary test, and also why you think it would not constitute sufficient reason to being a private prosecution.
    If someone said “I used to drink and drive all the time 20 years ago, but now I always take a taxi home”, would that constitute sufficient evidence to prosecute them now for past offences of drinking and driving?
    IANAL, but I would say "yes".

    This site often baffles me with its opinions. I accept that you may find your argument convincing, but please accept that not only do I disagree with it, I am genuinely baffled by your argument. Bad people do bad things, boast that they have done so, and yet do not get arrested? Why is this not obviously wrong?
    I'm sure that this has already been answered, but here's the problem:

    People lie all the time.

    The standard for criminal prosecution is "beyond reasonable doubt". So, the CPS brings a case against said "drink driver". When it gets to court, he pleads not guilty.

    The only evidence against him is his previous statements. He says "I exaggerated. While I drank and drove, it was never after more than two glasses of wine."

    No jury or magistrate will ever find him guilty because there's simply not enough proof.
    The standard for conviction is beyond reasonable doubt. The standard for bringing it to the attention of [whoever] for criminal trial is a prima facie level of evidence that the person has committed a crime. As to your contention that no jury would convict, I'm happy to test that by letting it go to trial and see what they would say. Maybe they'll surprise you, as Clive Ponting so demonstrated.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Still no tennis player born in the 90s has won a major yet.

    There have been seven.
    WHO ?
    Lack of male bits and bobs is a clue .... :smile:
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    Working age people in London on lower incomes tend to have the most kids - so better to look at it at a household level allowing for education and other services. Few people under 35 paying their way can afford a house big enough for more than one child in London these days - unless you are eligible for social housIng or HB - the former move out. And many pensioners did pay in for over 40 years.

    To suggest all or almost all workers are net financial contributors at a household level and in terms of taxes paid vs welfare and services consumed isn’t credible in large parts of the capital.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    She’s a clueless moron .

    Let’s hope she never intends breeding with her equally vile husband .
    She's 51.
    She has aged well. All the ugliness is on the inside.
    Her voice is appalling as is the substance of her words! I cannot see any upside to her as Tory leader for the Tories as the only place she might pick up votes is Merseyside and I have not seen very many prospects for Tory gains in recent elections in that neck of the woods. She will get knocked out early on I should imagine!
  • rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    Are you considering the vast sums spent on things like Crossrail, bus subsidy, tube subsidy etc. that although not directly are taken out by the individual, they are benefitting directly from them.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Still think Australia are worth a nibble at current prices.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    40 is middle aged. 25 is young. In between is in your prime.

    Not that I am biased, at 32.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Still no tennis player born in the 90s has won a major yet.

    There have been seven.
    WHO ?
    I’ll start with Ashleigh Barty.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    My apartment
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:
    £240k for a one bedroomed flat? Barking seems appropriate on so many levels.
    And the floor plan has no numbers on it, nowhere on the ad does it say how many square feet you get for your £240k in Barking. I’m going to guess it’s closer to 400 than 500.
    That's £580/sq ft (or €700).

    For that price, you can get a decent apartment in a nice part of Berlin. You can even get a pretty decent place in Los Angeles.
    Mine in Dubai is £250/ sqft, 20 mins from the financial centre. Obviously if you want to live in the DIFC or marina it’s double that price (or more).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Still no tennis player born in the 90s has won a major yet.

    There have been seven.
    WHO ?
    Lack of male bits and bobs is a clue .... :smile:
    Pah yes I meant amongst the men
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    On housing benefit.
    If it didn't exist, the aggregate number of properties and aggregate number of people needing to be housed wouldn't change.
    Since landlords would still wish to avoid voids I assume, wouldn't 'ceteris paribus' the average rent simply fall and occupancy remain unchanged therefore benefiting the taxpayer by billions ? Also the average renter.
    At some point the rent accrued would not cover the expenses of renting out the flat. So the rent would fall and landlords would sell until a new equilibrium price shook out. You can't make private individuals rent to people.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    Interesting bit of Iowa news:

    "For the first time, the Iowa poll accounts for new rules proposed this year by the Iowa Democratic Party that will allow Iowans to participate in a virtual caucus online or over the phone."

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/08/iowa-poll-biden-democrats-2020-1358156

    For those that have been watching, Iowa: https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/08/politics/iowa-poll-2020-biden-sanders-warren-buttigieg-harris/index.html

    Overall, 24% say they favor the former vice president, with 16% backing Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, 15% Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren, and 14% South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg. California Sen. Kamala Harris rounds out the five over 5% with 7% support.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,709
    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Esther McVey joins Raab in saying she would suspend Parliament to force a No Deal Brexit.

    She also says she would use the £39 billion saved from payments to the EU to fund a public sector pay rise


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-ll-force-no-deal-and-give-eu-money-to-our-workers-vows-mcvey-jwxwmdrj6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560070560

    Surely this makes no sense at all.

    If we don't pay the £39bn (or part of it) then that is a one-off saving.

    Whereas if you give a pay rise that increases the cost base going forward indefinitely.
    The £39 billion is a staged payment tailing off over a couple of decades, not a lump sum.

    Not defending McVey though, it is just one of many half baked Brexit wheezes that collapse when breathed upon by intelligent life.
    The problem is convincing those who do not look into the detail of the merits of these things. 'The People' don't seem to do detail!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Still no tennis player born in the 90s has won a major yet.

    There have been seven.
    WHO ?
    Naomi Osaka, Ashleigh Barty, Simona Halep, Caroline Wozniacki, Sloane Stephens, Jeļena Ostapenko, and Garbiñe Muguruza.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    I tend to divide up ages into 15 year periods.

    0-15 child
    15-30 young adult
    30-45?
    45-60 middle aged
    60-75 silver surfer
    75-90 old
    90+ good for their age

    Doing cocaine in your 30s is after your young adult phase.

    IMHO

    0-15: child
    15-25: young adult
    25-35: early middle age
    35-45: middle age
    45-55: late middle age
    55-65: early old
    65-75: old
    75-85: very old
    85-dead: frail elderly


    I prefer Verulamius' age categories
    I prefer mine.

    Pause.

    Nyahh, nyahh, nah-nah, nah!

    (runs away)

    :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    edited June 2019
    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    On housing benefit.
    If it didn't exist, the aggregate number of properties and aggregate number of people needing to be housed wouldn't change.
    Since landlords would still wish to avoid voids I assume, wouldn't 'ceteris paribus' the average rent simply fall and occupancy remain unchanged therefore benefiting the taxpayer by billions ? Also the average renter.
    At some point the rent accrued would not cover the expenses of renting out the flat. So the rent would fall and landlords would sell until a new equilibrium price shook out. You can't make private individuals rent to people.
    Well if landlords need to sell up then FTBs may benefit.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Still no tennis player born in the 90s has won a major yet.

    There have been seven.
    WHO ?
    Naomi Osaka, Ashleigh Barty, Simona Halep, Caroline Wozniacki, Sloane Stephens, Jeļena Ostapenko, and Garbiñe Muguruza.
    I think Pulps was referring to blokes born in the 90s :)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    DavidL said:

    Maybe its because I like him but I can't help feeling that this is a story that our oh so clean and ethical media like to get their knickers in a twist about and most people will just shrug their shoulders.

    Everyone who has given our drugs policy a second's thought must realise that we only maintain the lines (ha) that we do to make our Brexit policy look rational. Everyone knows it doesn't work, that drug use is endemic in all social classes, that our war on drugs has been irredeemably lost and we need to do something different. If I was half as bright as Gove I would seize that message and run with it.

    David , it is a pity he is a lying hypocrite with all that supposed intellect. Methinks he is well overated and instead is just a jumped up thickie in reality.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Pulpstar said:

    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    On housing benefit.
    If it didn't exist, the aggregate number of properties and aggregate number of people needing to be housed wouldn't change.
    Since landlords would still wish to avoid voids I assume, wouldn't 'ceteris paribus' the average rent simply fall and occupancy remain unchanged therefore benefiting the taxpayer by billions ? Also the average renter.
    At some point the rent accrued would not cover the expenses of renting out the flat. So the rent would fall and landlords would sell until a new equilibrium price shook out. You can't make private individuals rent to people.
    Well if landlords need to sell up then FTBs may benefit.
    Indeed.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    Gove would have been a first class PM. But he has blown it now completely. He is exposed as a hypocrite and, just as importantly, someone who happily flouts the law when it suits him. Certainly not what we would want of a PM.

    He would have been absolute crap. Coming to it when you think a lying cheating no mark would make a great PM.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    Are you considering the vast sums spent on things like Crossrail, bus subsidy, tube subsidy etc. that although not directly are taken out by the individual, they are benefitting directly from them.
    Of course. Let's just play with numbers for a second. Let's imagine that the total annual subsidies* ** for transport in London were £3.5bn***.

    And there are around 20 million people who regularly travel on London transport. (Which is probably about right, when you include people who come into the capital for one reason or another). So that's around £150/user a year. Even someone earning £12,000/year (i.e. a worker) is going to be paying (across NI, VAT, council tax) 20x that a year in tax.


    * Capital spending needs to be spread out over it's life of operation, you know, like how companies do their accounts
    ** You also need to include payments from rail companies, and the Congestion Charge. Don't forget that a number of the London rail lines are profitable and pay money to the Exchequor every year.
    *** That's actually too high. TfL's total grants is £3.4bn, and that doesn't include any income. But I'm using it to prove my point.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    edited June 2019

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    algarkirk said:

    Cicero said:

    Is Rory Stewart underpriced? Several polls make him the most popular Tory amongst non Tories, and actually the Conservative Party has historically had an instinct for self preservation, usually when all the alternatives lead to extinction.

    The risk of an extinction level event for the Tories with Raab or Johnson for example, is pretty high. So given that a fair few of the headbanger members have gone off to Farage, and a fairly large bloc of MPs won't have Johnson at any price, could it be that the only actual Conservative in the race might do surprisingly well?

    He does speak human, and although his failed drug test is exotic Opium rather than the commonplace Cocaine, his Eton/Black Watch commission/Oxford first (unlike Johnson's second) and MI6 career really impresses a certain kind of Tory MP.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/104437/rory-stewart-and-boris-johnson-joint-top

    Johnson has enemies, Stewart doesn't. If he gets into the last two, I think he might just make it all the way.

    Would love to live in a country where Rory would walk a GE as PM, but I don't. I think Tory members know this too. Foreign Secretary please for Mr Stewart.

    After spending so much time saying those seeking to renegotiate are being misleading and no deal would be both difficult and a bad idea? He's not getting that job under Boris.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    edited June 2019
    MaxPB said:

    Still think Australia are worth a nibble at current prices.

    Not now.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    Pulpstar said:

    On housing benefit.
    If it didn't exist, the aggregate number of properties and aggregate number of people needing to be housed wouldn't change.
    Since landlords would still wish to avoid voids I assume, wouldn't 'ceteris paribus' the average rent simply fall and occupancy remain unchanged therefore benefiting the taxpayer by billions ? Also the average renter.

    Perhaps. However -

    The market based argument against rent controls is that the consequent fall in rents would lead to a big reduction in properties available for letting as landlords pull out. Why not here too?

    And how about extending the logic to tax credits topping up low pay? If they were abolished would wages rise hence saving the taxpayer billions?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    viewcode said:



    The standard for conviction is beyond reasonable doubt. The standard for bringing it to the attention of [whoever] for criminal trial is a prima facie level of evidence that the person has committed a crime. As to your contention that no jury would convict, I'm happy to test that by letting it go to trial and see what they would say. Maybe they'll surprise you, as Clive Ponting so demonstrated.

    You can sneak to whomever you like for whatever you like, the only bound being that your evidence is not so weak that you are wasting police time by advancing it. The DPP must satisfy himorherself that there is a reasonable chance of getting a conviction *and* that it is in the public interest to prosecute. On the first, there probably isn't, and on the second I'd expect the DPP to be wary of being used as a tool in a political battle. Not saying it won't happen (see under Huhne) but it's odds agin (see under Johnson, B.)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Australia need to start thinking about net run rate now.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    DavidL said:

    Anyway, its not rained for nearly 4 hours. Definitely time to put the BBQ on.

    Been brilliant sunshine here all day David, had almost forgotten what it looked like.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    viewcode said:

    justin124 said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Gove could still be prosecuted fot taking drugs back in the 1990s. No statutory limitation would apply to the offence.

    If you feel so strongly about it, make a complaint to the police.
    It is a story the Opposition parties can reasonably run with. How could the authorities justify NOT taking action. Showing preference to Gove and his ilk clearly brings the law into disrepute.
    I don't think it would pass the evidentiary test, so am not sure how you're even getting to a prosecution.
    I am geninely confused as to how you think a public confession does not pass the evidentiary test, and also why you think it would not constitute sufficient reason to being a private prosecution.
    He has friends in high places, they will not want the publicity
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    It is about context, innit. In this country, you can pinpoint the geographical origin and skin colour of someone with near certainty if he is described as muslim. In Mecca at the Hajj, say, or at the World Council of Islam if there is such a thing, it is rather less of a clue.

    And race isn't much of an actual thing in any circumstances anyway.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    brendan16 said:

    Working age people in London on lower incomes tend to have the most kids - so better to look at it at a household level allowing for education and other services. Few people under 35 paying their way can afford a house big enough for more than one child in London these days - unless you are eligible for social housIng or HB - the former move out. And many pensioners did pay in for over 40 years.

    To suggest all or almost all workers are net financial contributors at a household level and in terms of taxes paid vs welfare and services consumed isn’t credible in large parts of the capital.

    It may not be credible, but it is - I'm afraid - an empirical fact

    I need to go pack boxes now (we're moving house), but I will share some economics articles on it to your email later.

    This isn't just a London point, by the way, it's a global one. Simply: government spending is dominated by healthcare and pension costs, and those of working age tend to have very little of either.

    Now, if you're not working, have three kids, and live on benefits, then (sure) you'll almost certainly be negative. But the break-even (even with two kids) is probably only about £20,000 of income from a total tax take perspective.

    If you want to argue for "whole life" then that changes the numbers of course. It makes the best people to have those who come, work for five years and then piss off back to Estonia, and then a few people who've paid millions in tax. And then almost everyone else is a net recipient.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    algarkirk said:

    Cicero said:

    Is Rory Stewart underpriced? Several polls make him the most popular Tory amongst non Tories, and actually the Conservative Party has historically had an instinct for self preservation, usually when all the alternatives lead to extinction.

    The risk of an extinction level event for the Tories with Raab or Johnson for example, is pretty high. So given that a fair few of the headbanger members have gone off to Farage, and a fairly large bloc of MPs won't have Johnson at any price, could it be that the only actual Conservative in the race might do surprisingly well?

    He does speak human, and although his failed drug test is exotic Opium rather than the commonplace Cocaine, his Eton/Black Watch commission/Oxford first (unlike Johnson's second) and MI6 career really impresses a certain kind of Tory MP.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/104437/rory-stewart-and-boris-johnson-joint-top

    Johnson has enemies, Stewart doesn't. If he gets into the last two, I think he might just make it all the way.

    Would love to live in a country where Rory would walk a GE as PM, but I don't. I think Tory members know this too. Foreign Secretary please for Mr Stewart.

    emigrating to la la land then
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    One of the things I actually quite like about the leadership contest is that all the candidates have expressed their Brexit plans based on their area of specialism, so Javid has spoken of solving the border issue, Leadom has spoken about how to start getting the necessary legislation through parliament, and so forth. None is the entire picture, but working together as a coordinated team it actually gives me confidence that Brexit can be handled successfully.

    you are easily fooled by idiots
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    It is about context, innit. In this country, you can pinpoint the geographical origin and skin colour of someone with near certainty if he is described as muslim. In Mecca at the Hajj, say, or at the World Council of Islam if there is such a thing, it is rather less of a clue.

    And race isn't much of an actual thing in any circumstances anyway.
    Are Bosnians the same race as Somalis?

    Are Moroccan Berbers the same race as Malays?


    Conversely: are all brown people Muslim (as you seem to suggest)?
    Or: Are all Muslims brown people?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    Ishmael_Z said:

    viewcode said:



    The standard for conviction is beyond reasonable doubt. The standard for bringing it to the attention of [whoever] for criminal trial is a prima facie level of evidence that the person has committed a crime. As to your contention that no jury would convict, I'm happy to test that by letting it go to trial and see what they would say. Maybe they'll surprise you, as Clive Ponting so demonstrated.

    You can sneak to whomever you like for whatever you like, the only bound being that your evidence is not so weak that you are wasting police time by advancing it. The DPP must satisfy himorherself that there is a reasonable chance of getting a conviction *and* that it is in the public interest to prosecute. On the first, there probably isn't, and on the second I'd expect the DPP to be wary of being used as a tool in a political battle. Not saying it won't happen (see under Huhne) but it's odds agin (see under Johnson, B.)
    open and shut case , the criminal has admitted his guilt and should be in the scrubs by now.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    It's a bit difficult to tell if ther's a problem with the cladding from here, no?

    If the building's fundamentally on fire, it is going to burn down sooner or later. it's about timings.
    But a modern building, built to current building regulations should never engulf like that, surely?
    Isn't the whole point to slow down the fire, so there is time for the residents to escape?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    On the subject of fertility, the 2001 Derby winner is still producing Derby winners 16 years later.

    Galileo's spunk is worth a mint.
    £500,000 for him to have a go on your mare. :open_mouth:
    No foal no fee?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    How about me?

    "Are Somalis and Indonesians the same race?" :)
    Is there a list of races we can choose from
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    Many Londoners (perhaps a third) take out far more than they pay in - in terms of housing benefit, social housing, tax credits, welfare generally etc - and certainly don't pay their way.

    If you look at government spending and tax receipts on a year-by-year basis, then working people - unless you have a really serious illness - almost certainly pay in more than they take out. Even if you're on minimum wage, getting housing benefit, that will be the case.

    The vast majority of people in "deficit" in a given year, will be the elderly - because the NHS, social care and pensions all go their way*. (The other group in deficit is, of course, children.)

    * A large portion of housing benefit, of course, goes to the retired too.
    Are you considering the vast sums spent on things like Crossrail, bus subsidy, tube subsidy etc. that although not directly are taken out by the individual, they are benefitting directly from them.
    Of course. Let's just play with numbers for a second. Let's imagine that the total annual subsidies* ** for transport in London were £3.5bn***.

    And there are around 20 million people who regularly travel on London transport. (Which is probably about right, when you include people who come into the capital for one reason or another). So that's around £150/user a year. Even someone earning £12,000/year (i.e. a worker) is going to be paying (across NI, VAT, council tax) 20x that a year in tax.


    * Capital spending needs to be spread out over it's life of operation, you know, like how companies do their accounts
    ** You also need to include payments from rail companies, and the Congestion Charge. Don't forget that a number of the London rail lines are profitable and pay money to the Exchequor every year.
    *** That's actually too high. TfL's total grants is £3.4bn, and that doesn't include any income. But I'm using it to prove my point.
    I expect someone earning £12k per year in London would pay a negative rate of tax after housing benefits and tax credits are taken into account. There's no way they are paying £3k net in tax.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    It's a bit difficult to tell if ther's a problem with the cladding from here, no?

    If the building's fundamentally on fire, it is going to burn down sooner or later. it's about timings.
    But a modern building, built to current building regulations should never engulf like that, surely?
    I assumed it was just the England flags that had got alight....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    kinabalu said:

    I'm *amazed* that you are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism amongst your political friends, yet are so acutely sensitive to perceived racism by your enemies.

    It's almost as though you don't actually care about racism, except as a political weapon.

    Not an accusation against you but it is undeniable that the reverse also applies and widely - that antisemitism in Labour is being exploited to the hilt by political opponents many of whom are not as a general rule the most passionate of warriors against racism.

    (Snip)
    Yep, I agree with that. Some of the attacks against anti-Semitism within Labour are somewhat blunted by comments made by the same accusers against - say - Muslims.

    (Cue someone saying: "Islam isn't a race!") ;)
    I will make your day , you are talking bollox , Islam is not a race it is a religion.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490
    malcolmg said:

    One of the things I actually quite like about the leadership contest is that all the candidates have expressed their Brexit plans based on their area of specialism, so Javid has spoken of solving the border issue, Leadom has spoken about how to start getting the necessary legislation through parliament, and so forth. None is the entire picture, but working together as a coordinated team it actually gives me confidence that Brexit can be handled successfully.

    you are easily fooled by idiots
    All these people have been at the Brexit coalface, it would be improbable that they did not come away with useful knowledge.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    It's a bit difficult to tell if ther's a problem with the cladding from here, no?

    If the building's fundamentally on fire, it is going to burn down sooner or later. it's about timings.
    But a modern building, built to current building regulations should never engulf like that, surely?
    I assumed it was just the England flags that had got alight....
    England flags, in Barking? :D
This discussion has been closed.