Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist.
Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
> > Jo Swinson acts as if her main opponent is Nicola Sturgeon, which makes her ill-suited to take on the mantle of leading the opposition in England.
>
> >
>
> > She is jealous of the attention Davidson gets and so is aping her, two attention seeking single policy useless twerps.
>
>
>
> SNP'er complaining about single policy......
>
> You don't see the SNP bleating every day about independence, Tories and Lib Dems manage that as they are fixated. SNP are getting on with trying to save the country from the ravages of the Westminster cartel. Add limp Labour, given SNP just keep on getting more popular after more than 12 years in power,and it easy to see why the unionists are suffering panic attacks. With little pip squeaks like Javid and clowns like Swinson saying they won't allow a vote, it is plain to see independence is inevitable.
>
> PS: I AM NOT A MEMBER OF THE SNP. I support independence for Scotland and have no party affiliations.
In 2015 the SNP reached 50% of the vote at the general election in Scotland, in 2017 they declined to 37%, a total they virtually matched with the 38% they got in the European elections the week before last.
So the SNP are not getting more popular, they actually peaked in 2015 and have declined ever since
I've missed a good Peak SNP. . Is suppose if Peak SNP is a called every year since 2007 it is bound to be true at one point.
> Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
Another one ffs?
Yes but never mind because the Conservatives are quite likely to elect a leader with equally questionable views so then it will all cancel out and we can go back to lecturing the rest of the world on how enlightened we are.
There seems to be considerable debate about that. Boles for example iirc says this is true and if there is nothing to amend then No Deal can happen by default. Others seem to think Bercow will engineer something.
> @RochdalePioneers said: > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
Hardly necessary -she's already pretty good at it by all accounts.
> Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
Another one ffs?
No, it's fine, they just didn't read the accompanying text of something anti-semitic they liked. Why they then need training I do not know, since by their own comment the problem was not reading it, not not realising it was anti semitic to go on about zionist slave masters.
> @ydoethur said: > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training... > > Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist. > > Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
Jewish groups say Labour should disown Peterborough byelection candidate
"Jewish organisations have called on Labour to distance itself from its Peterborough byelection candidate, who has apologised for liking a post that said Theresa May had a “Zionist Slave Masters agenda”."
> @rottenborough said: > > There seems to be considerable debate about that. Boles for example iirc says this is true and if there is nothing to amend then No Deal can happen by default. Others seem to think Bercow will engineer something. -------
Boles is just saying that to try to coerce MPs into voting for the deal.
Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist.
Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
This Labour person will fit right in Jezza's party. If she wins that is. Which she wont.
Maybe the Daily Mail is correct with its rumours that senior aides to Jezza say he is done if they lose Peterborough.
> @kle4 said: > > @IanB2 said: > > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > The death cult Leavers out in force this afternoon to ramp up the possibility of a pain-free no deal Brexit. In a just world it would be their meds that would run out and their jobs that would be lost, but sadly they will probably be able to sit back, watch the suffering and nonchalantly conclude that it was a price worth paying. > > > > After the Leadsom Marr interview its now called a “managed exit”. In the sense that we leave, and then we have to manage. > > --------------------- > Not a fan of rebranding something to make it seem more palatable. > > Second referendum - people's vote - confirmatory referendum > > No deal brexit - clean brexit - managed exit > > It's always such shameless spinning. People tie themselves in knots justifying why their rebrand is totally reasonable, but the other side rebranding is not ok at all. > > Relatedly > https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1135175187341729794 > > Yes, he's just going for a continuity May WA, which will not get through, but there are too many promising very big with at best small chances of delivery - what will they do in a few months when they cannot do that?
Continuity may is better described by Javid, who kept saying he wants to leave by October without any realistic path of how that will happen. No plan apart from saying what he wants, running down the clock and hoping magic will happen.
Stewart is clear that he rules out no deal and 2nd ref, which May never did, and would try a citizens assembley to build a consensus on the WA, again which May never did. If May had done the same 10 months ago we would have left by now. It may have missed its time though.
> It doesn't have to get through the Commons. It just needs the Commons to fail to agree on an alternative.
There seems to be considerable debate about that. Boles for example iirc says this is true and if there is nothing to amend then No Deal can happen by default. Others seem to think Bercow will engineer something.
The latter seems quite plausible. He has been quite open that he does not care about precedent unless he wants to (and although the point that sometimes you do things differently may be true, he has not always had a good explanation of why sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't), and if as is likely there is still a parliamentary majority against it he has probably planned a way forward just in case.
> @RochdalePioneers said: > > @ydoethur said: > > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training... > > > > Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist. > > > > Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time! > > Jewish groups say Labour should disown Peterborough byelection candidate > > https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/02/jewish-groups-labour-peterborough-byelection-lisa-forbes-antisemitism?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard > > "Jewish organisations have called on Labour to distance itself from its Peterborough byelection candidate, who has apologised for liking a post that said Theresa May had a “Zionist Slave Masters agenda”."
Forgive my ignorance but what is a Zionist Slave Masters agenda? Obviously it doesn't sound too good.
> Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
>
> Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist.
>
> Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
Jewish groups say Labour should disown Peterborough byelection candidate
"Jewish organisations have called on Labour to distance itself from its Peterborough byelection candidate, who has apologised for liking a post that said Theresa May had a “Zionist Slave Masters agenda”."
---------------- What does 'distance themselves' mean in this context? Unless they suspended her from the party they would still be campaigning to have her elected, not that they could even remove their brand from the ballot paper anyway.
> @malcolmg said: > 'I want a Brexit that works for people in Culludin (sic) as well as Canary Wharf' > > > > Wadfc. > > > > https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/1134914158288396288 > > > > He doesn't spell it like that in the video? > > Another loser fixated on Indyref2, these clowns are so predictable. If only they were so diligent on Brexit. > PS: Typical southerner , has nosebleed in Scotland and makes up imaginary places. Brigadoon here we come.
Are you genuinely a Scot? It's just that you are such a pathetic stereotype, that I suspect you're not. Whiner, check. Obnoxious check. Self absorbed check. Massive chip on your shoulder check. You can't really be a Scot. You must be a parody.
No, it's fine, they just didn't read the accompanying text of something anti-semitic they liked.
It would be interesting to know what proportion of the links and twitter threads posted here have actually been read in full by the copy/pasters who have seen a headline they like or are just passing on items that have come up on their own feeds.
> @ydoethur said: > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training... > > Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist. > > Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now.
No, it's fine, they just didn't read the accompanying text of something anti-semitic they liked.
It would be interesting to know what proportion of the links and twitter threads posted here have actually been read in full by the copy/pasters who have seen a headline they like or are just passing on items that have come up on their own feeds.
Anybody so stupid as to like something they haven't read isn't fit to be an MP anyway, although they would fit right in given the way MPs have messed about with the Withdrawal Agreement.
> @Richard_Tyndall said: > > @rottenborough said: > > Be interested to hear the views of supposed ultra libertarian, Claire Fox, about her fellow MEP, Anne 'I want to live in 1950' Widdecombe > > There was far less State intrusion into our lives in 1950 than there is today.
In 1950 the state told you what you had to eat, through rationing. It also told you to go into the armed services for several years if you were a man. Many people worked directly or indirectly for the state as most basic industries were nationalised. A large proportion of people lived in houses owned by an arm of the state. The state controlled foreign travel because it decided how much currency you could buy. Most people have much less direct contact with the state now than they did at that time.
> @DecrepitJohnL said: > No, it's fine, they just didn't read the accompanying text of something anti-semitic they liked. > > It would be interesting to know what proportion of the links and twitter threads posted here have actually been read in full by the copy/pasters who have seen a headline they like or are just passing on items that have come up on their own feeds. ---------------------- Oh, I don't doubt the possibility people like things without reading them, everybody does. But in connection with the other post it makes the question of sincerity valid, not least given the ratehr confused nature of her response which defends her by saying she didn't notice the racism, while still talking about undertaking further training - what for, if the issue was she didn't read it? Knowing more about anti-semitism would not have made a difference, if we take her at her word.
Additionally, would this candidate forgive an opponent for liking something horrible without reading it? Would any politician do that, left or right? Would they bollocks.
It's also, as is common in these situations, a defence which relies on 'I'm not malicious, I'm really stupid, please vote for me', which is a defence which can be true, but is only used when people are desperate.
Whilst away last week, I noticed that Pete Willsman was suspended from the NEC... am I correct in saying this he is one of the new NEC members who was voted in on that momentum 'ticket'?
If that's right then didn't former PB favourite & shadow minister for truth, Chris Williamson alter his social media at the time supporting all the momentum candidates and especially pointing out it was ALL of them including and specifically 'yes that includes Pete Willsman' in his campaign of support despite there being questions over that individual at the time?
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Good afternoon, everyone. > > This pointless faffing ahead of the actual resignation is very on brand for May...
----------- What's pointless about it? She cannot quit as PM without us knowing who will take her place, and a couple of weeks for prospective candidates to get themselves in order for a contest seems reasonable (inasmuch as any of this guff while there are Brexit issues to content with is reasonable). Plus, apart from Boris who wants to be PM while Trump is in town?
> @Scrapheap_as_was said: > Whilst away last week, I noticed that Pete Willsman was suspended from the NEC... am I correct in saying this he is one of the new NEC members who was voted in on that momentum 'ticket'? > > If that's right then didn't former PB favourite & shadow minister for truth, Chris Williamson alter his social media at the time supporting all the momentum candidates and especially pointing out it was ALL of them including and specifically 'yes that includes Pete Willsman' in his campaign of support despite there being questions over that individual at the time? > > Can't quite recall if this is the same man?
It was referred to as a Corbynite full slate win, using the #JC9 tag
"Willsman was ultimately endorsed by the Campaign for Labour Party Democracy (CLPD) and the Centre-Left Grassroots Alliance (CLGA), which are considered by some Corbynite activists to be to the left of Momentum"
> @Richard_Tyndall said: > > @kinabalu said: > > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > > @rottenborough said: > > > > Be interested to hear the views of supposed ultra libertarian, Claire Fox, about her fellow MEP, Anne 'I want to live in 1950' Widdecombe > > > > > > There was far less State intrusion into our lives in 1950 than there is today. > > > > Perhaps it is mainly a matter of personal perception but I feel virtually no State interference or intrusion as I go about my daily business. I feel free. I think this is because I am not having to do a job I hate in order to pay the bills. When I was in that unhealthy position a few years ago I did not feel free. I felt extremely interfered with and intruded upon. But not by the State. By Lehman Brothers. > > I agree utbis a matter of perception but if course I would include the State theft of the majority of my income as part of that intrusion.
Fee Fie Fo Fum I smell a Libber Tear Ian.
They HATE paying tax. Never met one with a good word to say about it.
> @rottenborough said: > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training... > > Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist. > > Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time! > > This Labour person will fit right in Jezza's party. If she wins that is. Which she wont. > > Maybe the Daily Mail is correct with its rumours that senior aides to Jezza say he is done if they lose Peterborough.
> @RochdalePioneers said: > > @rottenborough said: > > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training... > > > > Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist. > > > > Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time! > > > > This Labour person will fit right in Jezza's party. If she wins that is. Which she wont. > > > > Maybe the Daily Mail is correct with its rumours that senior aides to Jezza say he is done if they lose Peterborough. > > Well let's hope
Be careful, you might end up with someone worse. Although I guess with him suspended at least it won't be Williamson.
> @HYUFD said: > > @MaxPB said: > > So does anyone know which of the current candidates is a small state conservative? So far all I've seen is all candidates proposing the state as the answer for everything and an expansion of the state's role in people's lives. > > I guess you have not heard Javid's plan this morning to scrap the top income tax rate or Raab's plan to cut the top income tax rate to 35% and slash the number of Whitehall departments then?
and turn the giant predators loose on the population? Nice....
> @RochdalePioneers said: > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
But when the Labour anti-semitism training is run by JVL - which doesn't believe in the IHRC definition of anti-semitism and sees nothing wrong with what Willsman was recorded saying - then there is ZERO point in Labour's training on this important topic.
Absolutely. That a bunch of Tories dislike Muslims means it's alright that a large bunch of Labour people associated with the leader are anti-semites. Being a racist is ok if your opponents are also racists.
> @Richard_Tyndall said: > > @kinabalu said: > > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > > @rottenborough said: > > > > Be interested to hear the views of supposed ultra libertarian, Claire Fox, about her fellow MEP, Anne 'I want to live in 1950' Widdecombe > > > > > > There was far less State intrusion into our lives in 1950 than there is today. > > > > Perhaps it is mainly a matter of personal perception but I feel virtually no State interference or intrusion as I go about my daily business. I feel free. I think this is because I am not having to do a job I hate in order to pay the bills. When I was in that unhealthy position a few years ago I did not feel free. I felt extremely interfered with and intruded upon. But not by the State. By Lehman Brothers. > > I agree utbis a matter of perception but if course I would include the State theft of the majority of my income as part of that intrusion. ------
What were the rates of income tax in 1950, Richard?
> @kle4 said: > > @Scrapheap_as_was said: > > Whilst away last week, I noticed that Pete Willsman was suspended from the NEC... am I correct in saying this he is one of the new NEC members who was voted in on that momentum 'ticket'? > > > > If that's right then didn't former PB favourite & shadow minister for truth, Chris Williamson alter his social media at the time supporting all the momentum candidates and especially pointing out it was ALL of them including and specifically 'yes that includes Pete Willsman' in his campaign of support despite there being questions over that individual at the time? > > > > Can't quite recall if this is the same man? > > It was referred to as a Corbynite full slate win, using the #JC9 tag > > https://labourlist.org/2018/09/full-jc9-slate-elected-to-labours-nec/ > > "Willsman was ultimately endorsed by the Campaign for Labour Party Democracy (CLPD) and the Centre-Left Grassroots Alliance (CLGA), which are considered by some Corbynite activists to be to the left of Momentum"
Cool - it was the same guy. Then I definitely recall Williamson making a big song and dance that he was including Willsman in his support despite the concerns raised about him.
> @NickPalmer said: > > @kinabalu said: > > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > > @rottenborough said: > > > > Be interested to hear the views of supposed ultra libertarian, Claire Fox, about her fellow MEP, Anne 'I want to live in 1950' Widdecombe > > > > > > There was far less State intrusion into our lives in 1950 than there is today. > > > > Perhaps it is mainly a matter of personal perception but I feel virtually no State interference or intrusion as I go about my daily business. I feel free. I think this is because I am not having to do a job I hate in order to pay the bills. When I was in that unhealthy position a few years ago I did not feel free. I felt extremely interfered with and intruded upon. But not by the State. By Lehman Brothers. > > Yes, I agree. It's a state of mind more than anything for most people - in the same way, you get people saying that the EU constantly interferes in British life, but struggling to be specific. > > People on benefits do get a lot of (in my view somewhat excessive) direction - jump through this hoop, now jump through that one. > > People who appear to be looking after themselves are largely left to get on with it. A problem is that when people suddenly actually could benefit from the state getting involved (a family crisis of one kind of another), they have to seek out the right assistance themselves, and because it's sudden they don't know where to go. Constituency postbags are full of cases like that (as I imagine are CAB casebooks).
> @RochdalePioneers said: > > @TheJezziah said: > > https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1134889469193150464 > > > > > > > > It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now. > > Absolutely. That a bunch of Tories dislike Muslims means it's alright that a large bunch of Labour people associated with the leader are anti-semites. Being a racist is ok if your opponents are also racists. > > Tell me, have you ever visited Planet Earth?
Indeed. But it's very revealing of the total bunker mentality that's dragged Labour into the sewer. Everything is an attack from opponents, whereas the strongest criticism of Labour on this has come from Jews and Labour and ex-Labour people horrified that the party they loved and supported as the party of equality, has thanks to Corbyn and his fans become the first party since the BNP to be investigating for its racism, totally undermining any attempt to stand against racism on the right. When Hope Not Hate say you're institutionally racist you need to take a long hard look at yourselves and what you've done.
> @oxfordsimon said: > > @RochdalePioneers said: > > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training... > > But when the Labour anti-semitism training is run by JVL - which doesn't believe in the IHRC definition of anti-semitism and sees nothing wrong with what Willsman was recorded saying - then there is ZERO point in Labour's training on this important topic.
"Such actions could easily spiral into a global free-for-all of retaliation and protectionism. We are truly moving from the Art of the Deal into the Fog of War."
One was an internationally consistent and recognised definition. One was a partisan attempt to get a belief system protected so people couldn't criticise beliefs.
> @Philip_Thompson said: > > @TheJezziah said: > > https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1134889469193150464 > > > > > > > > It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now. > > One was an internationally consistent and recognised definition. > One was a partisan attempt to get a belief system protected so people couldn't criticise beliefs. > > Not the same thing at all.
Not looked at in any detail so might be missing something but surely it is possible to come up with a single definition that would apply to all religions and expect mainstream people to adhere to that?
> @kle4 said: > > @Peter_the_Punter said: > > > @rottenborough said: > > > Ken Clarke will vote for Rory reports OrderOrder. > > > > He has two heavyweight endorsement now - Clarke and Soames. Something happening? > ----------------------- > No. Both yesterday's men. > from the Good Old Days when the Conservatives were at least respectable (even if wrong).
> @noneoftheabove said: > > @Philip_Thompson said: > > > @TheJezziah said: > > > https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1134889469193150464 > > > > > > > > > > > > It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now. > > > > One was an internationally consistent and recognised definition. > > One was a partisan attempt to get a belief system protected so people couldn't criticise beliefs. > > > > Not the same thing at all. > > Not looked at in any detail so might be missing something but surely it is possible to come up with a single definition that would apply to all religions and expect mainstream people to adhere to that?
The key thing surely should be consistency.
I dislike any belief system that is based on myths rather than evidence, misogynistic and has apostasy as a part of its belief system. The world would be better off without all beliefs that are like that and none of them deserve any protection.
> @noneoftheabove said: > > @Philip_Thompson said: > > > @TheJezziah said: > > > It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now. > > One was an internationally consistent and recognised definition. > > One was a partisan attempt to get a belief system protected so people couldn't criticise beliefs. > > Not the same thing at all. > Not looked at in any detail so might be missing something but surely it is possible to come up with a single definition that would apply to all religions and expect mainstream people to adhere to that?
I no longer believe that religions are deserving of special protection under the law. Indeed, I would extend that to all belief systems.
Which is not to say that I endorse hate - I just do not believe that we should be offering protections to thinking that is used to endorse and validate bigotry and hatred.
No-one is born a Christian, Muslim or any other religion. It may be cultural - but it is also a choice. You do choose to follow a religion or not.
I don't believe that a choice should be protected. Which is why I also oppose additional protections in law for vegans (which might well happen as a result of forthcoming court/tribunal cases)
Race and sexuality - not a choice and thus should be protected.
We should, of course, have a culture of mutual respect. And assaults/abuse should always be prosecuted and children taught how to respect differences.
But the era of giving any religion a special position in our society should be over. And that means removing Bishops from the HoL and other such privileges.
Looking beyond the Conservative leadership battle (with Gyimah's entry we now have the same number of runners as went to post for the Derby at Epsom). Not sure I want to stretch the parallel too far - mile and a half for three year olds of all ages, a test of stamina, lots of ups and downs and in the home straight the camber means you often see the leaders veering to the left.
Yes, that's as far as I want to go - the pub past the finishing post is called The Rubbing House but I can't think of anything to add...
Further afield, the daily Voxmeter poll continues to show a healthy lead for the centre-left in seats over the centre-right - 104-71 which in Danish terms is a huge win.
While the Danish Social Democrats can expect a decent result on Wednesday (more than 50 seats in the Folketing) their compatriots in Austria and Germany aren't doing anywhere as well. In Austria, both the SPD and FPO are in retreat following the scandal which brought down the OVP-FPO coalition government. The Greens are the winners in the new poll advancing to 10%. The question is whether Kurz will be able to remain OVP leader if the next election enables or forces an alternative to dealing with the FPO.
In Germany, the SPD chair has quit following the disastrous European election results. The latest Emmid Poll has the combined CDU/CSU/SPD share down nine points from the last Bundestag election with the Greens up a staggering 11 points to a clear second on 20%, On these numbers you'd be asking if the SPD could support a minority Green Government and would Linke be willing to back the Greens as well?
In the Netherlands, the four parties forming Rutte's coalition are polling 40%, down from 48% at the last election. The big winners are the Forum for Democracy who have inherited most of the vote of the PPV and the PvdA (the Dutch Social Democrats) who have doubled their share to 12% after their humiliating performance in the October 2017 election.
On the Lib Dem race as we know Jo Swinson is the overwhelming favourite but for me although likeable as always she did come across as slightly lightweight on Marr this morning. Although It is absolutely a matter of regret the Lib Dems haven't elected a female leader to date for me given the current extraordinary circumstances choosing an experienced operator like Ed Davey has its advantages. As an aside on Swinson it is fair to assume the SNP won't be granting her any favours in her seat come the next GE given some of the vitriol around in 2015 when she lost it albeit temporarily. As for Davey although he is marked by being a member of the coalition government we all know opposing Brexit is really all that matters for the foreseeable so this disadvantage doesn't have the traction of old..
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news: >
The question is where art/satire ends and incitement begins.
I find that sort of lyric and intent distasteful. As I would if it were Kill Labour Scum or any such variant.
I know there are those in 'popular music' who like to appear edgy - but this is just hate-filled, infantile behaviour on the part of the 'music makers'
It doesn't reflect well on Glastonbury.
Do they have a right to hold these views in private? Yes Do they have a right to express these views in public? Yes - unless it breaks the laws on incitement to violence. And I am not expert enough to know for certain one way or the other. If they were standing up making a speech to this effect, I would say that there could be a case to answer. Singing does not make the words any different in terms of meaning, and I would say probably also intent. So perhaps this does count as incitement and thus should not be permitted.
The theatremaker in me is all for being provocative and challenging. But there are necessary limits that have to be applied in serious situations.
> @kinabalu said: > What do you think of universal basic income?
I quite like the idea if like the national pension it's pitched at survivability level rather than comfort level. The concept that you should be able to fail, get by for a while without tons of bureaucracy and then try again is pretty attractive. Obviously the converse is that we don't have as many tax breaks and/or the rates go up.
> @williamglenn said: > Hancock says it's a deal or no Brexit. > > https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1135160655206637571 There is space for a Deal or No Brexit candidate in between the Raab, McVey and Javid and Boris positions of Deal or No Deal in October and the Hunt and Gove positions of Deal or further extension and the Gyimah position of EUref2 so Hancock pitching himself in the vacant slot
> @oxfordsimon said: > > @Morris_Dancer said: > > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news: > > > > The question is where art/satire ends and incitement begins. > > I find that sort of lyric and intent distasteful. As I would if it were Kill Labour Scum or any such variant. > > I know there are those in 'popular music' who like to appear edgy - but this is just hate-filled, infantile behaviour on the part of the 'music makers' > > It doesn't reflect well on Glastonbury. > > Do they have a right to hold these views in private? Yes > Do they have a right to express these views in public? Yes - unless it breaks the laws on incitement to violence. And I am not expert enough to know for certain one way or the other. If they were standing up making a speech to this effect, I would say that there could be a case to answer. Singing does not make the words any different in terms of meaning, and I would say probably also intent. So perhaps this does count as incitement and thus should not be permitted. > > The theatremaker in me is all for being provocative and challenging. But there are necessary limits that have to be applied in serious situations. > >
A society that bans certain songs is far, far more frightening than the song could ever be itself.
> While the Danish Social Democrats can expect a decent result on Wednesday (more than 50 seats in the Folketing) their compatriots in Austria and Germany aren't doing anywhere as well. In Austria, both the SPD and FPO are in retreat following the scandal which brought down the OVP-FPO coalition government. The Greens are the winners in the new poll advancing to 10%. The question is whether Kurz will be able to remain OVP leader if the next election enables or forces an alternative to dealing with the FPO. > > In Germany, the SPD chair has quit following the disastrous European election results. The latest Emmid Poll has the combined CDU/CSU/SPD share down nine points from the last Bundestag election with the Greens up a staggering 11 points to a clear second on 20%, On these numbers you'd be asking if the SPD could support a minority Green Government and would Linke be willing to back the Greens as well? > > In the Netherlands, the four parties forming Rutte's coalition are polling 40%, down from 48% at the last election. The big winners are the Forum for Democracy who have inherited most of the vote of the PPV and the PvdA (the Dutch Social Democrats) who have doubled their share to 12% after their humiliating performance in the October 2017 election.
Useful summary, thanks! I think a common factor is that party loyalty is declining everywhere - parties rise and fall with a speed little seen before the last decade. People try out different flavours, don't like them, and move on.
> @RobC said: > On the Lib Dem race as we know Jo Swinson is the overwhelming favourite but for me although likeable as always she did come across as slightly lightweight on Marr this morning. -------
Unfortunately there's something a bit Vicky Pollard about her speech patterns.
> @HYUFD said: > > @williamglenn said: > > Hancock says it's a deal or no Brexit. > > > > https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1135160655206637571 > There is space for a Deal or No Brexit candidate in between the Raab, McVey and Javid and Boris positions of Deal or No Deal in October and the Hunt and Gove positions of Deal or further extension and the Gyimah position of EUref2 so Hancock pitching himself in the vacant slot >
Vacant sounds entirely appropriate.
(Though, to be fair, it’s not an unreasonable position to take.)
> @stodge said: > Afternoon all > > Looking beyond the Conservative leadership battle (with Gyimah's entry we now have the same number of runners as went to post for the Derby at Epsom). Not sure I want to stretch the parallel too far - mile and a half for three year olds of all ages, a test of stamina, lots of ups and downs and in the home straight the camber means you often see the leaders veering to the left. > > Yes, that's as far as I want to go - the pub past the finishing post is called The Rubbing House but I can't think of anything to add... > > Further afield, the daily Voxmeter poll continues to show a healthy lead for the centre-left in seats over the centre-right - 104-71 which in Danish terms is a huge win. > > While the Danish Social Democrats can expect a decent result on Wednesday (more than 50 seats in the Folketing) their compatriots in Austria and Germany aren't doing anywhere as well. In Austria, both the SPD and FPO are in retreat following the scandal which brought down the OVP-FPO coalition government. The Greens are the winners in the new poll advancing to 10%. The question is whether Kurz will be able to remain OVP leader if the next election enables or forces an alternative to dealing with the FPO. > > In Germany, the SPD chair has quit following the disastrous European election results. The latest Emmid Poll has the combined CDU/CSU/SPD share down nine points from the last Bundestag election with the Greens up a staggering 11 points to a clear second on 20%, On these numbers you'd be asking if the SPD could support a minority Green Government and would Linke be willing to back the Greens as well? > > In the Netherlands, the four parties forming Rutte's coalition are polling 40%, down from 48% at the last election. The big winners are the Forum for Democracy who have inherited most of the vote of the PPV and the PvdA (the Dutch Social Democrats) who have doubled their share to 12% after their humiliating performance in the October 2017 election.
In Austria Kurz's OVP is currently polling 38%, well up on the 31.5% it got last time and he is miles ahead as preferred Chancellor so hard to see him going anywhere after the election in September, indeed SPO and Greens combined only get to 31%
> @kle4 said: > > @kle4 said: > > > > @Peter_the_Punter said: > > > > > @rottenborough said: > > > > > Ken Clarke will vote for Rory reports OrderOrder. > > > > > > > > He has two heavyweight endorsement now - Clarke and Soames. Something happening? > > > ----------------------- > > > No. Both yesterday's men. > > > > > from the Good Old Days when the Conservatives were at least respectable (even if wrong). > > Times the party does not want to return to. Too busy preparing their favourite Churchill quotes while staring at pictures of Margaret Thatcher.
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Mr. Palmer, hasn't universal basic income been tried (and failed) in Finland? 'Failed' may be a bit strong, it did not lead to any rise in employment levels but did leave people happier and less stressed apparently.
However due to expense it would only really be an option if AI led to long periods of unemployment for a large proportion of the population and would have to be funded by a robot tax.
Looking beyond the Conservative leadership battle (with Gyimah's entry we now have the same number of runners as went to post for the Derby at Epsom). Not sure I want to stretch the parallel too far - mile and a half for three year olds of all ages, a test of stamina, lots of ups and downs and in the home straight the camber means you often see the leaders veering to the left.
Yes, that's as far as I want to go - the pub past the finishing post is called The Rubbing House but I can't think of anything to add...
Further afield, the daily Voxmeter poll continues to show a healthy lead for the centre-left in seats over the centre-right - 104-71 which in Danish terms is a huge win.
While the Danish Social Democrats can expect a decent result on Wednesday (more than 50 seats in the Folketing) their compatriots in Austria and Germany aren't doing anywhere as well. In Austria, both the SPD and FPO are in retreat following the scandal which brought down the OVP-FPO coalition government. The Greens are the winners in the new poll advancing to 10%. The question is whether Kurz will be able to remain OVP leader if the next election enables or forces an alternative to dealing with the FPO.
In Germany, the SPD chair has quit following the disastrous European election results. The latest Emmid Poll has the combined CDU/CSU/SPD share down nine points from the last Bundestag election with the Greens up a staggering 11 points to a clear second on 20%, On these numbers you'd be asking if the SPD could support a minority Green Government and would Linke be willing to back the Greens as well?
In the Netherlands, the four parties forming Rutte's coalition are polling 40%, down from 48% at the last election. The big winners are the Forum for Democracy who have inherited most of the vote of the PPV and the PvdA (the Dutch Social Democrats) who have doubled their share to 12% after their humiliating performance in the October 2017 election.
I have a theory that if you could find a European that had never been exposed to politics and asked him or her to outline their ideal political party's programme, it would basically be social democracy with controls on immigration.
> @ydoethur said: > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training... > > Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist. > > Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
Wasn't he just thick as mince? Hardly in the same league
> @SandyRentool said: > > Times the party does not want to return to. Too busy preparing their favourite Churchill quotes while staring at pictures of Margaret Thatcher. > > Just staring?
> @Stark_Dawning said: > > @oxfordsimon said: > > > @Morris_Dancer said: > > > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news: > > > > > > > The question is where art/satire ends and incitement begins. > > > > I find that sort of lyric and intent distasteful. As I would if it were Kill Labour Scum or any such variant. > > > > I know there are those in 'popular music' who like to appear edgy - but this is just hate-filled, infantile behaviour on the part of the 'music makers' > > > > It doesn't reflect well on Glastonbury. > > > > Do they have a right to hold these views in private? Yes > > Do they have a right to express these views in public? Yes - unless it breaks the laws on incitement to violence. And I am not expert enough to know for certain one way or the other. If they were standing up making a speech to this effect, I would say that there could be a case to answer. Singing does not make the words any different in terms of meaning, and I would say probably also intent. So perhaps this does count as incitement and thus should not be permitted. > > > > The theatremaker in me is all for being provocative and challenging. But there are necessary limits that have to be applied in serious situations. > > > > > > A society that bans certain songs is far, far more frightening than the song could ever be itself.
The issue, for me, is where a spoken statement of killing a certain group of persons would almost certainly be viewed as possibly breaking incitement laws - why should singing the exact same words should automatically be given some special artistic legal protection? If the words are the same, the meaning the same and the intent the same - surely being sung should make no difference.
This isn't about banning a song as a song - it is whether by singing it, the law has been broken. This is more a matter of legal philosophy rather than practical policing - I do understand that.
But there are legal lines in the sand - for a very good reason.
Would I choose to listen to this sort of music? No. Would I (if I were a festival organiser) book this band? No
Would I ban this song? I honestly don't know. There are certainly better ways of making a political point. Encouraging violence through music is a step too far for me. Whether that is enough to justify the law intervening? Maybe - that is for others to examine.
> There is space for a Deal or No Brexit candidate in between the Raab, McVey and Javid and Boris positions of Deal or No Deal in October and the Hunt and Gove positions of Deal or further extension and the Gyimah position of EUref2 so Hancock pitching himself in the vacant slot
>
Vacant sounds entirely appropriate.
(Though, to be fair, it’s not an unreasonable position to take.)
> Another loser fixated on Indyref2, these clowns are so predictable. If only they were so diligent on Brexit.
> PS: Typical southerner , has nosebleed in Scotland and makes up imaginary places. Brigadoon here we come.
Are you genuinely a Scot? It's just that you are such a pathetic stereotype, that I suspect you're not.
Whiner, check.
Obnoxious check.
Self absorbed check.
Massive chip on your shoulder check.
You can't really be a Scot. You must be a parody.</blockquoet
LOL, another loser enters the fray, wobbling like a jelly. You forgot to ask if I wore a kilt and ate haggis. I may just have been mauled by a dead sheep.
> @HYUFD said: > > @williamglenn said: > > Hancock says it's a deal or no Brexit. > > > > https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1135160655206637571 > There is space for a Deal or No Brexit candidate in between the Raab, McVey and Javid and Boris positions of Deal or No Deal in October and the Hunt and Gove positions of Deal or further extension and the Gyimah position of EUref2 so Hancock pitching himself in the vacant slot >
Of course McVey's position is now the most hardline of all, tear up the Withdrawal Agreement and straight to No Deal
> @Pulpstar said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > Hancock says it's a deal or no Brexit. > > > > > > > > https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1135160655206637571 > > > > > There is space for a Deal or No Brexit candidate in between the Raab, McVey and Javid and Boris positions of Deal or No Deal in October and the Hunt and Gove positions of Deal or further extension and the Gyimah position of EUref2 so Hancock pitching himself in the vacant slot > > > > > > > Vacant sounds entirely appropriate. > > > > (Though, to be fair, it’s not an unreasonable position to take.) > > Still room on the right for no deal Baker !
Alongside McVey yes, though Baker can say he never voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at all
> @Stark_Dawning said: > > @oxfordsimon said: > > > @Morris_Dancer said: > > > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news: > > > > > > > The question is where art/satire ends and incitement begins. > > > > I find that sort of lyric and intent distasteful. As I would if it were Kill Labour Scum or any such variant. > > > > I know there are those in 'popular music' who like to appear edgy - but this is just hate-filled, infantile behaviour on the part of the 'music makers' > > > > It doesn't reflect well on Glastonbury. > > > > Do they have a right to hold these views in private? Yes > > Do they have a right to express these views in public? Yes - unless it breaks the laws on incitement to violence. And I am not expert enough to know for certain one way or the other. If they were standing up making a speech to this effect, I would say that there could be a case to answer. Singing does not make the words any different in terms of meaning, and I would say probably also intent. So perhaps this does count as incitement and thus should not be permitted. > > > > The theatremaker in me is all for being provocative and challenging. But there are necessary limits that have to be applied in serious situations. > > > > > > A society that bans certain songs is far, far more frightening than the song could ever be itself.
It's not barring songs that is the issue here - it is whether this particular song constitutes incitement or not. The video is an alleged "parody" of canvassers going round killing people who turn out to be Tories, and who are then awarded points as in a video game.
One of the ironies is that the stats flashed up to demonise Tories have mainly been long-exposed as dodgy or fraudulent. The "Tory Scum" rhetoric has been stock-in-trade of leftists and some SNP campaigners for years, if not decades. The new bit is perhaps the "Kill" reaching the mainstream.
> @Recidivist said: > Afternoon all > > Looking beyond the Conservative leadership battle (with Gyimah's entry we now have the same number of runners as went to post for the Derby at Epsom). Not sure I want to stretch the parallel too far - mile and a half for three year olds of all ages, a test of stamina, lots of ups and downs and in the home straight the camber means you often see the leaders veering to the left. > > Yes, that's as far as I want to go - the pub past the finishing post is called The Rubbing House but I can't think of anything to add... > > Further afield, the daily Voxmeter poll continues to show a healthy lead for the centre-left in seats over the centre-right - 104-71 which in Danish terms is a huge win. > > While the Danish Social Democrats can expect a decent result on Wednesday (more than 50 seats in the Folketing) their compatriots in Austria and Germany aren't doing anywhere as well. In Austria, both the SPD and FPO are in retreat following the scandal which brought down the OVP-FPO coalition government. The Greens are the winners in the new poll advancing to 10%. The question is whether Kurz will be able to remain OVP leader if the next election enables or forces an alternative to dealing with the FPO. > > In Germany, the SPD chair has quit following the disastrous European election results. The latest Emmid Poll has the combined CDU/CSU/SPD share down nine points from the last Bundestag election with the Greens up a staggering 11 points to a clear second on 20%, On these numbers you'd be asking if the SPD could support a minority Green Government and would Linke be willing to back the Greens as well? > > In the Netherlands, the four parties forming Rutte's coalition are polling 40%, down from 48% at the last election. The big winners are the Forum for Democracy who have inherited most of the vote of the PPV and the PvdA (the Dutch Social Democrats) who have doubled their share to 12% after their humiliating performance in the October 2017 election. > > > I have a theory that if you could find a European that had never been exposed to politics and asked him or her to outline their ideal political party's programme, it would basically be social democracy with controls on immigration.
Or Christian Democracy and the same thing.
Indeed tighter border control and less globalisation is probably more popular than pure libertarianism in almost every western nation, even the USA
Interesting but the only person I heard express a preference was Alan Duncan who said he wasn't voting for Johnson yet Guido has him in their Johnson Column whereas Wiki has him in Hunt's. Knowing Guido's scant regard for accuracy I would guess Wiki probably has it right
> @kinabalu said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > @Theuniondivvie said: > > > > @Morris_Dancer said: > > > > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news: > > > > https://twitter.com/ajcdeane/status/1135171773618696193 > > > > > > > > > But it's their best song, HUYFD said so! > > > > I should have said their main song > > Yes I knew that's what you meant - I was being unruly. > > Similar to when you accidentally said Elizabeth Warren was 'John Terry in a skirt'. > > Totally obvious that it was just a typo and you meant Kerry.
Well as I also said if she was John Terry in a skirt she would have more chance of winning the rustbelt
Comments
Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
. Is suppose if Peak SNP is a called every year since 2007 it is bound to be true at one point.
> > @williamglenn said:
> > Thread.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/rorystewartuk/status/1135174624021553152?s=21
>
> It doesn't have to get through the Commons. It just needs the Commons to fail to agree on an alternative.
There seems to be considerable debate about that. Boles for example iirc says this is true and if there is nothing to amend then No Deal can happen by default. Others seem to think Bercow will engineer something.
> Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
Hardly necessary -she's already pretty good at it by all accounts.
> Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
>
> Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist.
>
> Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
Jewish groups say Labour should disown Peterborough byelection candidate
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/02/jewish-groups-labour-peterborough-byelection-lisa-forbes-antisemitism?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
"Jewish organisations have called on Labour to distance itself from its Peterborough byelection candidate, who has apologised for liking a post that said Theresa May had a “Zionist Slave Masters agenda”."
>
> There seems to be considerable debate about that. Boles for example iirc says this is true and if there is nothing to amend then No Deal can happen by default. Others seem to think Bercow will engineer something.
-------
Boles is just saying that to try to coerce MPs into voting for the deal.
Maybe the Daily Mail is correct with its rumours that senior aides to Jezza say he is done if they lose Peterborough.
> > @IanB2 said:
> > > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > The death cult Leavers out in force this afternoon to ramp up the possibility of a pain-free no deal Brexit. In a just world it would be their meds that would run out and their jobs that would be lost, but sadly they will probably be able to sit back, watch the suffering and nonchalantly conclude that it was a price worth paying.
> >
> > After the Leadsom Marr interview its now called a “managed exit”. In the sense that we leave, and then we have to manage.
>
> ---------------------
> Not a fan of rebranding something to make it seem more palatable.
>
> Second referendum - people's vote - confirmatory referendum
>
> No deal brexit - clean brexit - managed exit
>
> It's always such shameless spinning. People tie themselves in knots justifying why their rebrand is totally reasonable, but the other side rebranding is not ok at all.
>
> Relatedly
> https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1135175187341729794
>
> Yes, he's just going for a continuity May WA, which will not get through, but there are too many promising very big with at best small chances of delivery - what will they do in a few months when they cannot do that?
Continuity may is better described by Javid, who kept saying he wants to leave by October without any realistic path of how that will happen. No plan apart from saying what he wants, running down the clock and hoping magic will happen.
Stewart is clear that he rules out no deal and 2nd ref, which May never did, and would try a citizens assembley to build a consensus on the WA, again which May never did. If May had done the same 10 months ago we would have left by now. It may have missed its time though.
> > @ydoethur said:
> > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
> >
> > Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist.
> >
> > Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
>
> Jewish groups say Labour should disown Peterborough byelection candidate
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/02/jewish-groups-labour-peterborough-byelection-lisa-forbes-antisemitism?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
>
> "Jewish organisations have called on Labour to distance itself from its Peterborough byelection candidate, who has apologised for liking a post that said Theresa May had a “Zionist Slave Masters agenda”."
Forgive my ignorance but what is a Zionist Slave Masters agenda? Obviously it doesn't sound too good.
What does 'distance themselves' mean in this context? Unless they suspended her from the party they would still be campaigning to have her elected, not that they could even remove their brand from the ballot paper anyway.
> 'I want a Brexit that works for people in Culludin (sic) as well as Canary Wharf'
>
>
>
> Wadfc.
>
>
>
> https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/1134914158288396288
>
>
>
> He doesn't spell it like that in the video?
>
> Another loser fixated on Indyref2, these clowns are so predictable. If only they were so diligent on Brexit.
> PS: Typical southerner , has nosebleed in Scotland and makes up imaginary places. Brigadoon here we come.
Are you genuinely a Scot? It's just that you are such a pathetic stereotype, that I suspect you're not.
Whiner, check.
Obnoxious check.
Self absorbed check.
Massive chip on your shoulder check.
You can't really be a Scot. You must be a parody.
> Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
>
> Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist.
>
> Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
Don't forget the charming Helen Clark:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/7953736.stm
This pointless faffing ahead of the actual resignation is very on brand for May...
> > @rottenborough said:
> > Be interested to hear the views of supposed ultra libertarian, Claire Fox, about her fellow MEP, Anne 'I want to live in 1950' Widdecombe
>
> There was far less State intrusion into our lives in 1950 than there is today.
In 1950 the state told you what you had to eat, through rationing. It also told you to go into the armed services for several years if you were a man. Many people worked directly or indirectly for the state as most basic industries were nationalised. A large proportion of people lived in houses owned by an arm of the state. The state controlled foreign travel because it decided how much currency you could buy. Most people have much less direct contact with the state now than they did at that time.
> No, it's fine, they just didn't read the accompanying text of something anti-semitic they liked.
>
> It would be interesting to know what proportion of the links and twitter threads posted here have actually been read in full by the copy/pasters who have seen a headline they like or are just passing on items that have come up on their own feeds.
----------------------
Oh, I don't doubt the possibility people like things without reading them, everybody does. But in connection with the other post it makes the question of sincerity valid, not least given the ratehr confused nature of her response which defends her by saying she didn't notice the racism, while still talking about undertaking further training - what for, if the issue was she didn't read it? Knowing more about anti-semitism would not have made a difference, if we take her at her word.
Additionally, would this candidate forgive an opponent for liking something horrible without reading it? Would any politician do that, left or right? Would they bollocks.
It's also, as is common in these situations, a defence which relies on 'I'm not malicious, I'm really stupid, please vote for me', which is a defence which can be true, but is only used when people are desperate.
If that's right then didn't former PB favourite & shadow minister for truth, Chris Williamson alter his social media at the time supporting all the momentum candidates and especially pointing out it was ALL of them including and specifically 'yes that includes Pete Willsman' in his campaign of support despite there being questions over that individual at the time?
Can't quite recall if this is the same man?
> Good afternoon, everyone.
>
> This pointless faffing ahead of the actual resignation is very on brand for May...
-----------
What's pointless about it? She cannot quit as PM without us knowing who will take her place, and a couple of weeks for prospective candidates to get themselves in order for a contest seems reasonable (inasmuch as any of this guff while there are Brexit issues to content with is reasonable). Plus, apart from Boris who wants to be PM while Trump is in town?
> Whilst away last week, I noticed that Pete Willsman was suspended from the NEC... am I correct in saying this he is one of the new NEC members who was voted in on that momentum 'ticket'?
>
> If that's right then didn't former PB favourite & shadow minister for truth, Chris Williamson alter his social media at the time supporting all the momentum candidates and especially pointing out it was ALL of them including and specifically 'yes that includes Pete Willsman' in his campaign of support despite there being questions over that individual at the time?
>
> Can't quite recall if this is the same man?
It was referred to as a Corbynite full slate win, using the #JC9 tag
https://labourlist.org/2018/09/full-jc9-slate-elected-to-labours-nec/
"Willsman was ultimately endorsed by the Campaign for Labour Party Democracy (CLPD) and the Centre-Left Grassroots Alliance (CLGA), which are considered by some Corbynite activists to be to the left of Momentum"
> > @kinabalu said:
> > > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > > @rottenborough said:
> > > > Be interested to hear the views of supposed ultra libertarian, Claire Fox, about her fellow MEP, Anne 'I want to live in 1950' Widdecombe
> > >
> > > There was far less State intrusion into our lives in 1950 than there is today.
> >
> > Perhaps it is mainly a matter of personal perception but I feel virtually no State interference or intrusion as I go about my daily business. I feel free. I think this is because I am not having to do a job I hate in order to pay the bills. When I was in that unhealthy position a few years ago I did not feel free. I felt extremely interfered with and intruded upon. But not by the State. By Lehman Brothers.
>
> I agree utbis a matter of perception but if course I would include the State theft of the majority of my income as part of that intrusion.
Fee Fie Fo Fum I smell a Libber Tear Ian.
They HATE paying tax. Never met one with a good word to say about it.
> Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
>
> Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist.
>
> Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
>
> This Labour person will fit right in Jezza's party. If she wins that is. Which she wont.
>
> Maybe the Daily Mail is correct with its rumours that senior aides to Jezza say he is done if they lose Peterborough.
Well let's hope
> > @rottenborough said:
> > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
> >
> > Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist.
> >
> > Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
> >
> > This Labour person will fit right in Jezza's party. If she wins that is. Which she wont.
> >
> > Maybe the Daily Mail is correct with its rumours that senior aides to Jezza say he is done if they lose Peterborough.
>
> Well let's hope
Be careful, you might end up with someone worse. Although I guess with him suspended at least it won't be Williamson.
> > @MaxPB said:
> > So does anyone know which of the current candidates is a small state conservative? So far all I've seen is all candidates proposing the state as the answer for everything and an expansion of the state's role in people's lives.
>
> I guess you have not heard Javid's plan this morning to scrap the top income tax rate or Raab's plan to cut the top income tax rate to 35% and slash the number of Whitehall departments then?
and turn the giant predators loose on the population? Nice....
> Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
But when the Labour anti-semitism training is run by JVL - which doesn't believe in the IHRC definition of anti-semitism and sees nothing wrong with what Willsman was recorded saying - then there is ZERO point in Labour's training on this important topic.
> https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1134889469193150464
>
>
>
> It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now.
Absolutely. That a bunch of Tories dislike Muslims means it's alright that a large bunch of Labour people associated with the leader are anti-semites. Being a racist is ok if your opponents are also racists.
Tell me, have you ever visited Planet Earth?
> > @kinabalu said:
> > > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > > @rottenborough said:
> > > > Be interested to hear the views of supposed ultra libertarian, Claire Fox, about her fellow MEP, Anne 'I want to live in 1950' Widdecombe
> > >
> > > There was far less State intrusion into our lives in 1950 than there is today.
> >
> > Perhaps it is mainly a matter of personal perception but I feel virtually no State interference or intrusion as I go about my daily business. I feel free. I think this is because I am not having to do a job I hate in order to pay the bills. When I was in that unhealthy position a few years ago I did not feel free. I felt extremely interfered with and intruded upon. But not by the State. By Lehman Brothers.
>
> I agree utbis a matter of perception but if course I would include the State theft of the majority of my income as part of that intrusion.
------
What were the rates of income tax in 1950, Richard?
> > @Scrapheap_as_was said:
> > Whilst away last week, I noticed that Pete Willsman was suspended from the NEC... am I correct in saying this he is one of the new NEC members who was voted in on that momentum 'ticket'?
> >
> > If that's right then didn't former PB favourite & shadow minister for truth, Chris Williamson alter his social media at the time supporting all the momentum candidates and especially pointing out it was ALL of them including and specifically 'yes that includes Pete Willsman' in his campaign of support despite there being questions over that individual at the time?
> >
> > Can't quite recall if this is the same man?
>
> It was referred to as a Corbynite full slate win, using the #JC9 tag
>
> https://labourlist.org/2018/09/full-jc9-slate-elected-to-labours-nec/
>
> "Willsman was ultimately endorsed by the Campaign for Labour Party Democracy (CLPD) and the Centre-Left Grassroots Alliance (CLGA), which are considered by some Corbynite activists to be to the left of Momentum"
Cool - it was the same guy. Then I definitely recall Williamson making a big song and dance that he was including Willsman in his support despite the concerns raised about him.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > > @rottenborough said:
> > > > Be interested to hear the views of supposed ultra libertarian, Claire Fox, about her fellow MEP, Anne 'I want to live in 1950' Widdecombe
> > >
> > > There was far less State intrusion into our lives in 1950 than there is today.
> >
> > Perhaps it is mainly a matter of personal perception but I feel virtually no State interference or intrusion as I go about my daily business. I feel free. I think this is because I am not having to do a job I hate in order to pay the bills. When I was in that unhealthy position a few years ago I did not feel free. I felt extremely interfered with and intruded upon. But not by the State. By Lehman Brothers.
>
> Yes, I agree. It's a state of mind more than anything for most people - in the same way, you get people saying that the EU constantly interferes in British life, but struggling to be specific.
>
> People on benefits do get a lot of (in my view somewhat excessive) direction - jump through this hoop, now jump through that one.
>
> People who appear to be looking after themselves are largely left to get on with it. A problem is that when people suddenly actually could benefit from the state getting involved (a family crisis of one kind of another), they have to seek out the right assistance themselves, and because it's sudden they don't know where to go. Constituency postbags are full of cases like that (as I imagine are CAB casebooks).
What do you think of universal basic income?
Admittedly, a word that rhymes with 'chokers' and begins with J springs to mind.
> > @TheJezziah said:
> > https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1134889469193150464
> >
> >
> >
> > It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now.
>
> Absolutely. That a bunch of Tories dislike Muslims means it's alright that a large bunch of Labour people associated with the leader are anti-semites. Being a racist is ok if your opponents are also racists.
>
> Tell me, have you ever visited Planet Earth?
Indeed. But it's very revealing of the total bunker mentality that's dragged Labour into the sewer. Everything is an attack from opponents, whereas the strongest criticism of Labour on this has come from Jews and Labour and ex-Labour people horrified that the party they loved and supported as the party of equality, has thanks to Corbyn and his fans become the first party since the BNP to be investigating for its racism, totally undermining any attempt to stand against racism on the right. When Hope Not Hate say you're institutionally racist you need to take a long hard look at yourselves and what you've done.
> > @RochdalePioneers said:
> > Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
>
> But when the Labour anti-semitism training is run by JVL - which doesn't believe in the IHRC definition of anti-semitism and sees nothing wrong with what Willsman was recorded saying - then there is ZERO point in Labour's training on this important topic.
That's the WHOLE point
It's a smoke screen, nothing else.
https://piie.com/blogs/trade-investment-policy-watch/trumps-new-tariff-actions-wakeup-call-global-markets
"Such actions could easily spiral into a global free-for-all of retaliation and protectionism. We are truly moving from the Art of the Deal into the Fog of War."
> https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1134889469193150464
>
>
>
> It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now.
Yes Jez, we know you couldn't give a feck about anti semites in your party.
> https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1134889469193150464
>
>
>
> It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now.
One was an internationally consistent and recognised definition.
One was a partisan attempt to get a belief system protected so people couldn't criticise beliefs.
Not the same thing at all.
> > @TheJezziah said:
> > https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1134889469193150464
> >
> >
> >
> > It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now.
>
> One was an internationally consistent and recognised definition.
> One was a partisan attempt to get a belief system protected so people couldn't criticise beliefs.
>
> Not the same thing at all.
Not looked at in any detail so might be missing something but surely it is possible to come up with a single definition that would apply to all religions and expect mainstream people to adhere to that?
> > @Peter_the_Punter said:
> > > @rottenborough said:
> > > Ken Clarke will vote for Rory reports OrderOrder.
> >
> > He has two heavyweight endorsement now - Clarke and Soames. Something happening?
> -----------------------
> No. Both yesterday's men.
>
from the Good Old Days when the Conservatives were at least respectable (even if wrong).
https://twitter.com/ajcdeane/status/1135171773618696193
> > @Philip_Thompson said:
> > > @TheJezziah said:
> > > https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1134889469193150464
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now.
> >
> > One was an internationally consistent and recognised definition.
> > One was a partisan attempt to get a belief system protected so people couldn't criticise beliefs.
> >
> > Not the same thing at all.
>
> Not looked at in any detail so might be missing something but surely it is possible to come up with a single definition that would apply to all religions and expect mainstream people to adhere to that?
The key thing surely should be consistency.
I dislike any belief system that is based on myths rather than evidence, misogynistic and has apostasy as a part of its belief system. The world would be better off without all beliefs that are like that and none of them deserve any protection.
> > @Philip_Thompson said:
> > > @TheJezziah said:
> > > It probably worked better as an attack before the Conservative rejection of Islamophobia legislation on free speech grounds.... just ends up looking hypocritical from Tory supporters now.
> > One was an internationally consistent and recognised definition.
> > One was a partisan attempt to get a belief system protected so people couldn't criticise beliefs.
> > Not the same thing at all.
> Not looked at in any detail so might be missing something but surely it is possible to come up with a single definition that would apply to all religions and expect mainstream people to adhere to that?
I no longer believe that religions are deserving of special protection under the law. Indeed, I would extend that to all belief systems.
Which is not to say that I endorse hate - I just do not believe that we should be offering protections to thinking that is used to endorse and validate bigotry and hatred.
No-one is born a Christian, Muslim or any other religion. It may be cultural - but it is also a choice. You do choose to follow a religion or not.
I don't believe that a choice should be protected. Which is why I also oppose additional protections in law for vegans (which might well happen as a result of forthcoming court/tribunal cases)
Race and sexuality - not a choice and thus should be protected.
We should, of course, have a culture of mutual respect. And assaults/abuse should always be prosecuted and children taught how to respect differences.
But the era of giving any religion a special position in our society should be over. And that means removing Bishops from the HoL and other such privileges.
Looking beyond the Conservative leadership battle (with Gyimah's entry we now have the same number of runners as went to post for the Derby at Epsom). Not sure I want to stretch the parallel too far - mile and a half for three year olds of all ages, a test of stamina, lots of ups and downs and in the home straight the camber means you often see the leaders veering to the left.
Yes, that's as far as I want to go - the pub past the finishing post is called The Rubbing House but I can't think of anything to add...
Further afield, the daily Voxmeter poll continues to show a healthy lead for the centre-left in seats over the centre-right - 104-71 which in Danish terms is a huge win.
While the Danish Social Democrats can expect a decent result on Wednesday (more than 50 seats in the Folketing) their compatriots in Austria and Germany aren't doing anywhere as well. In Austria, both the SPD and FPO are in retreat following the scandal which brought down the OVP-FPO coalition government. The Greens are the winners in the new poll advancing to 10%. The question is whether Kurz will be able to remain OVP leader if the next election enables or forces an alternative to dealing with the FPO.
In Germany, the SPD chair has quit following the disastrous European election results. The latest Emmid Poll has the combined CDU/CSU/SPD share down nine points from the last Bundestag election with the Greens up a staggering 11 points to a clear second on 20%, On these numbers you'd be asking if the SPD could support a minority Green Government and would Linke be willing to back the Greens as well?
In the Netherlands, the four parties forming Rutte's coalition are polling 40%, down from 48% at the last election. The big winners are the Forum for Democracy who have inherited most of the vote of the PPV and the PvdA (the Dutch Social Democrats) who have doubled their share to 12% after their humiliating performance in the October 2017 election.
https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1135160655206637571
> Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news:
> https://twitter.com/ajcdeane/status/1135171773618696193
But it's their best song, HUYFD said so!
> > @Morris_Dancer said:
>
> > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news:
>
> > https://twitter.com/ajcdeane/status/1135171773618696193
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> But it's their best song, HUYFD said so!
>
> Why? Is it the one where they sing two correct notes?
But not necessarily in the correct order.
Takes me back to the glorious days of punk...
> Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news:
>
The question is where art/satire ends and incitement begins.
I find that sort of lyric and intent distasteful. As I would if it were Kill Labour Scum or any such variant.
I know there are those in 'popular music' who like to appear edgy - but this is just hate-filled, infantile behaviour on the part of the 'music makers'
It doesn't reflect well on Glastonbury.
Do they have a right to hold these views in private? Yes
Do they have a right to express these views in public? Yes - unless it breaks the laws on incitement to violence. And I am not expert enough to know for certain one way or the other. If they were standing up making a speech to this effect, I would say that there could be a case to answer. Singing does not make the words any different in terms of meaning, and I would say probably also intent. So perhaps this does count as incitement and thus should not be permitted.
The theatremaker in me is all for being provocative and challenging. But there are necessary limits that have to be applied in serious situations.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1feCjt98HJcY9tlc5Zx78ZoSOC2fN-j0vRVFD5eUTbUE/edit#gid=0
> What do you think of universal basic income?
I quite like the idea if like the national pension it's pitched at survivability level rather than comfort level. The concept that you should be able to fail, get by for a while without tons of bureaucracy and then try again is pretty attractive. Obviously the converse is that we don't have as many tax breaks and/or the rates go up.
It's a view I suppose.
> Hancock says it's a deal or no Brexit.
>
> https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1135160655206637571
There is space for a Deal or No Brexit candidate in between the Raab, McVey and Javid and Boris positions of Deal or No Deal in October and the Hunt and Gove positions of Deal or further extension and the Gyimah position of EUref2 so Hancock pitching himself in the vacant slot
> > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news:
> >
>
> The question is where art/satire ends and incitement begins.
>
> I find that sort of lyric and intent distasteful. As I would if it were Kill Labour Scum or any such variant.
>
> I know there are those in 'popular music' who like to appear edgy - but this is just hate-filled, infantile behaviour on the part of the 'music makers'
>
> It doesn't reflect well on Glastonbury.
>
> Do they have a right to hold these views in private? Yes
> Do they have a right to express these views in public? Yes - unless it breaks the laws on incitement to violence. And I am not expert enough to know for certain one way or the other. If they were standing up making a speech to this effect, I would say that there could be a case to answer. Singing does not make the words any different in terms of meaning, and I would say probably also intent. So perhaps this does count as incitement and thus should not be permitted.
>
> The theatremaker in me is all for being provocative and challenging. But there are necessary limits that have to be applied in serious situations.
>
>
A society that bans certain songs is far, far more frightening than the song could ever be itself.
> > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news:
> > https://twitter.com/ajcdeane/status/1135171773618696193
>
>
> But it's their best song, HUYFD said so!
I should have said their main song
> While the Danish Social Democrats can expect a decent result on Wednesday (more than 50 seats in the Folketing) their compatriots in Austria and Germany aren't doing anywhere as well. In Austria, both the SPD and FPO are in retreat following the scandal which brought down the OVP-FPO coalition government. The Greens are the winners in the new poll advancing to 10%. The question is whether Kurz will be able to remain OVP leader if the next election enables or forces an alternative to dealing with the FPO.
>
> In Germany, the SPD chair has quit following the disastrous European election results. The latest Emmid Poll has the combined CDU/CSU/SPD share down nine points from the last Bundestag election with the Greens up a staggering 11 points to a clear second on 20%, On these numbers you'd be asking if the SPD could support a minority Green Government and would Linke be willing to back the Greens as well?
>
> In the Netherlands, the four parties forming Rutte's coalition are polling 40%, down from 48% at the last election. The big winners are the Forum for Democracy who have inherited most of the vote of the PPV and the PvdA (the Dutch Social Democrats) who have doubled their share to 12% after their humiliating performance in the October 2017 election.
Useful summary, thanks! I think a common factor is that party loyalty is declining everywhere - parties rise and fall with a speed little seen before the last decade. People try out different flavours, don't like them, and move on.
> On the Lib Dem race as we know Jo Swinson is the overwhelming favourite but for me although likeable as always she did come across as slightly lightweight on Marr this morning.
-------
Unfortunately there's something a bit Vicky Pollard about her speech patterns.
> > @williamglenn said:
> > Hancock says it's a deal or no Brexit.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1135160655206637571
> There is space for a Deal or No Brexit candidate in between the Raab, McVey and Javid and Boris positions of Deal or No Deal in October and the Hunt and Gove positions of Deal or further extension and the Gyimah position of EUref2 so Hancock pitching himself in the vacant slot
>
Vacant sounds entirely appropriate.
(Though, to be fair, it’s not an unreasonable position to take.)
> Afternoon all
>
> Looking beyond the Conservative leadership battle (with Gyimah's entry we now have the same number of runners as went to post for the Derby at Epsom). Not sure I want to stretch the parallel too far - mile and a half for three year olds of all ages, a test of stamina, lots of ups and downs and in the home straight the camber means you often see the leaders veering to the left.
>
> Yes, that's as far as I want to go - the pub past the finishing post is called The Rubbing House but I can't think of anything to add...
>
> Further afield, the daily Voxmeter poll continues to show a healthy lead for the centre-left in seats over the centre-right - 104-71 which in Danish terms is a huge win.
>
> While the Danish Social Democrats can expect a decent result on Wednesday (more than 50 seats in the Folketing) their compatriots in Austria and Germany aren't doing anywhere as well. In Austria, both the SPD and FPO are in retreat following the scandal which brought down the OVP-FPO coalition government. The Greens are the winners in the new poll advancing to 10%. The question is whether Kurz will be able to remain OVP leader if the next election enables or forces an alternative to dealing with the FPO.
>
> In Germany, the SPD chair has quit following the disastrous European election results. The latest Emmid Poll has the combined CDU/CSU/SPD share down nine points from the last Bundestag election with the Greens up a staggering 11 points to a clear second on 20%, On these numbers you'd be asking if the SPD could support a minority Green Government and would Linke be willing to back the Greens as well?
>
> In the Netherlands, the four parties forming Rutte's coalition are polling 40%, down from 48% at the last election. The big winners are the Forum for Democracy who have inherited most of the vote of the PPV and the PvdA (the Dutch Social Democrats) who have doubled their share to 12% after their humiliating performance in the October 2017 election.
In Austria Kurz's OVP is currently polling 38%, well up on the 31.5% it got last time and he is miles ahead as preferred Chancellor so hard to see him going anywhere after the election in September, indeed SPO and Greens combined only get to 31%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_Austrian_legislative_election
> 55% of Tory MPs have now declared a preference for the leadership:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1feCjt98HJcY9tlc5Zx78ZoSOC2fN-j0vRVFD5eUTbUE/edit#gid=0
Approximately 95% of whom have probably lied
> > @kle4 said:
>
> > > @Peter_the_Punter said:
>
> > > > @rottenborough said:
>
> > > > Ken Clarke will vote for Rory reports OrderOrder.
>
> > >
>
> > > He has two heavyweight endorsement now - Clarke and Soames. Something happening?
>
> > -----------------------
>
> > No. Both yesterday's men.
>
> >
>
> from the Good Old Days when the Conservatives were at least respectable (even if wrong).
>
> Times the party does not want to return to. Too busy preparing their favourite Churchill quotes while staring at pictures of Margaret Thatcher.
Just staring?
> Mr. Palmer, hasn't universal basic income been tried (and failed) in Finland?
'Failed' may be a bit strong, it did not lead to any rise in employment levels but did leave people happier and less stressed apparently.
However due to expense it would only really be an option if AI led to long periods of unemployment for a large proportion of the population and would have to be funded by a robot tax.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47169549
> 55% of Tory MPs have now declared a preference for the leadership:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1feCjt98HJcY9tlc5Zx78ZoSOC2fN-j0vRVFD5eUTbUE/edit#gid=0
Boris is now ahead with MPs for the first time according to ConHome.
Of MPs who have declared, Boris leads with 30, then Gove and Hunt each have 29, Raab has 23, Javid 17 and Hancock 11
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/06/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html
> Great to see that the Labour candidate in Peterborough is apologising and pledging to do anti-semitism training. Would have been disappointing had we selected someone who didn't need training...
>
> Peterborough CLP certainly know how to pick 'em. First a perjurer and now a racist.
>
> Not that the Tories can talk given who their candidate was last time!
Wasn't he just thick as mince? Hardly in the same league
> > Times the party does not want to return to. Too busy preparing their favourite Churchill quotes while staring at pictures of Margaret Thatcher.
>
> Just staring?
https://youtu.be/lPMQksNRszc
> > @oxfordsimon said:
> > > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news:
> > >
> >
> > The question is where art/satire ends and incitement begins.
> >
> > I find that sort of lyric and intent distasteful. As I would if it were Kill Labour Scum or any such variant.
> >
> > I know there are those in 'popular music' who like to appear edgy - but this is just hate-filled, infantile behaviour on the part of the 'music makers'
> >
> > It doesn't reflect well on Glastonbury.
> >
> > Do they have a right to hold these views in private? Yes
> > Do they have a right to express these views in public? Yes - unless it breaks the laws on incitement to violence. And I am not expert enough to know for certain one way or the other. If they were standing up making a speech to this effect, I would say that there could be a case to answer. Singing does not make the words any different in terms of meaning, and I would say probably also intent. So perhaps this does count as incitement and thus should not be permitted.
> >
> > The theatremaker in me is all for being provocative and challenging. But there are necessary limits that have to be applied in serious situations.
> >
> >
>
> A society that bans certain songs is far, far more frightening than the song could ever be itself.
The issue, for me, is where a spoken statement of killing a certain group of persons would almost certainly be viewed as possibly breaking incitement laws - why should singing the exact same words should automatically be given some special artistic legal protection? If the words are the same, the meaning the same and the intent the same - surely being sung should make no difference.
This isn't about banning a song as a song - it is whether by singing it, the law has been broken. This is more a matter of legal philosophy rather than practical policing - I do understand that.
But there are legal lines in the sand - for a very good reason.
Would I choose to listen to this sort of music? No. Would I (if I were a festival organiser) book this band? No
Would I ban this song? I honestly don't know. There are certainly better ways of making a political point. Encouraging violence through music is a step too far for me. Whether that is enough to justify the law intervening? Maybe - that is for others to examine.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/A-Huawei-made-operating-system-How-feasible-is-it2
> > @williamglenn said:
> > Hancock says it's a deal or no Brexit.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1135160655206637571
> There is space for a Deal or No Brexit candidate in between the Raab, McVey and Javid and Boris positions of Deal or No Deal in October and the Hunt and Gove positions of Deal or further extension and the Gyimah position of EUref2 so Hancock pitching himself in the vacant slot
>
Of course McVey's position is now the most hardline of all, tear up the Withdrawal Agreement and straight to No Deal
> > @HYUFD said:
>
> > > @williamglenn said:
>
> > > Hancock says it's a deal or no Brexit.
>
> > >
>
> > > https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1135160655206637571
>
>
>
> > There is space for a Deal or No Brexit candidate in between the Raab, McVey and Javid and Boris positions of Deal or No Deal in October and the Hunt and Gove positions of Deal or further extension and the Gyimah position of EUref2 so Hancock pitching himself in the vacant slot
>
> >
>
>
>
> Vacant sounds entirely appropriate.
>
>
>
> (Though, to be fair, it’s not an unreasonable position to take.)
>
> Still room on the right for no deal Baker !
Alongside McVey yes, though Baker can say he never voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at all
> Hancock says it's a deal or no Brexit.
>
>
>
> https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1135160655206637571
>
>
>
> He looks like Homer Simpson's cousin Frank who shoots birds at the airport for a living
You can make money doing that?
Let me at it!
> > @oxfordsimon said:
> > > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news:
> > >
> >
> > The question is where art/satire ends and incitement begins.
> >
> > I find that sort of lyric and intent distasteful. As I would if it were Kill Labour Scum or any such variant.
> >
> > I know there are those in 'popular music' who like to appear edgy - but this is just hate-filled, infantile behaviour on the part of the 'music makers'
> >
> > It doesn't reflect well on Glastonbury.
> >
> > Do they have a right to hold these views in private? Yes
> > Do they have a right to express these views in public? Yes - unless it breaks the laws on incitement to violence. And I am not expert enough to know for certain one way or the other. If they were standing up making a speech to this effect, I would say that there could be a case to answer. Singing does not make the words any different in terms of meaning, and I would say probably also intent. So perhaps this does count as incitement and thus should not be permitted.
> >
> > The theatremaker in me is all for being provocative and challenging. But there are necessary limits that have to be applied in serious situations.
> >
> >
>
> A society that bans certain songs is far, far more frightening than the song could ever be itself.
It's not barring songs that is the issue here - it is whether this particular song constitutes incitement or not. The video is an alleged "parody" of canvassers going round killing people who turn out to be Tories, and who are then awarded points as in a video game.
One of the ironies is that the stats flashed up to demonise Tories have mainly been long-exposed as dodgy or fraudulent. The "Tory Scum" rhetoric has been stock-in-trade of leftists and some SNP campaigners for years, if not decades. The new bit is perhaps the "Kill" reaching the mainstream.
The one that concerned me was the attack on the Charity Worker at the (organised by Corbyn-fans, radicals - pick your word) demo about the Grenfell Tower fire, after one idiot told another idiot that he was a Tory.
https://metro.co.uk/2017/06/19/council-worker-beaten-by-protesters-was-actually-volunteer-who-helped-grenfell-victims-6719520/
Since it requires self-certification as 18+ on Youtube and logging in, I think it is probably OK to link from here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FGYzZ7sNvY
> Afternoon all
>
> Looking beyond the Conservative leadership battle (with Gyimah's entry we now have the same number of runners as went to post for the Derby at Epsom). Not sure I want to stretch the parallel too far - mile and a half for three year olds of all ages, a test of stamina, lots of ups and downs and in the home straight the camber means you often see the leaders veering to the left.
>
> Yes, that's as far as I want to go - the pub past the finishing post is called The Rubbing House but I can't think of anything to add...
>
> Further afield, the daily Voxmeter poll continues to show a healthy lead for the centre-left in seats over the centre-right - 104-71 which in Danish terms is a huge win.
>
> While the Danish Social Democrats can expect a decent result on Wednesday (more than 50 seats in the Folketing) their compatriots in Austria and Germany aren't doing anywhere as well. In Austria, both the SPD and FPO are in retreat following the scandal which brought down the OVP-FPO coalition government. The Greens are the winners in the new poll advancing to 10%. The question is whether Kurz will be able to remain OVP leader if the next election enables or forces an alternative to dealing with the FPO.
>
> In Germany, the SPD chair has quit following the disastrous European election results. The latest Emmid Poll has the combined CDU/CSU/SPD share down nine points from the last Bundestag election with the Greens up a staggering 11 points to a clear second on 20%, On these numbers you'd be asking if the SPD could support a minority Green Government and would Linke be willing to back the Greens as well?
>
> In the Netherlands, the four parties forming Rutte's coalition are polling 40%, down from 48% at the last election. The big winners are the Forum for Democracy who have inherited most of the vote of the PPV and the PvdA (the Dutch Social Democrats) who have doubled their share to 12% after their humiliating performance in the October 2017 election.
>
>
> I have a theory that if you could find a European that had never been exposed to politics and asked him or her to outline their ideal political party's programme, it would basically be social democracy with controls on immigration.
Or Christian Democracy and the same thing.
Indeed tighter border control and less globalisation is probably more popular than pure libertarianism in almost every western nation, even the USA
> > @AndyJS said:
> > 55% of Tory MPs have now declared a preference for the leadership:
> >
> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1feCjt98HJcY9tlc5Zx78ZoSOC2fN-j0vRVFD5eUTbUE/edit#gid=0
>
> Boris is now ahead with MPs for the first time according to ConHome.
>
> Of MPs who have declared, Boris leads with 30, then Gove and Hunt each have 29, Raab has 23, Javid 17 and Hancock 11
>
> https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/06/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html
>
Same figures as Wikipedia I think. Guido is being more sceptical about including MPs on his list.
> > @Theuniondivvie said:
> > > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news:
> > > https://twitter.com/ajcdeane/status/1135171773618696193
> >
> >
> > But it's their best song, HUYFD said so!
>
> I should have said their main song
Yes I knew that's what you meant - I was being unruly.
Similar to when you accidentally said Elizabeth Warren was 'John Terry in a skirt'.
Totally obvious that it was just a typo and you meant Kerry.
> > @AndyJS said:
> > 55% of Tory MPs have now declared a preference for the leadership:
> >
> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1feCjt98HJcY9tlc5Zx78ZoSOC2fN-j0vRVFD5eUTbUE/edit#gid=0
>
> Boris is now ahead with MPs for the first time according to ConHome.
>
> Of MPs who have declared, Boris leads with 30, then Gove and Hunt each have 29, Raab has 23, Javid 17 and Hancock 11
>
> https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/06/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html
>
Interesting but the only person I heard express a preference was Alan Duncan who said he wasn't voting for Johnson yet Guido has him in their Johnson Column whereas Wiki has him in Hunt's. Knowing Guido's scant regard for accuracy I would guess Wiki probably has it right
> According to Wikipedia Ken Clarke and David Gauke have endorsed Rory Stewart.
They definitely have, both were on Twitter this morning.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @Theuniondivvie said:
> > > > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > > > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news:
> > > > https://twitter.com/ajcdeane/status/1135171773618696193
> > >
> > >
> > > But it's their best song, HUYFD said so!
> >
> > I should have said their main song
>
> Yes I knew that's what you meant - I was being unruly.
>
> Similar to when you accidentally said Elizabeth Warren was 'John Terry in a skirt'.
>
> Totally obvious that it was just a typo and you meant Kerry.
Well as I also said if she was John Terry in a skirt she would have more chance of winning the rustbelt
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @AndyJS said:
> > > 55% of Tory MPs have now declared a preference for the leadership:
> > >
> > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1feCjt98HJcY9tlc5Zx78ZoSOC2fN-j0vRVFD5eUTbUE/edit#gid=0
> >
> > Boris is now ahead with MPs for the first time according to ConHome.
> >
> > Of MPs who have declared, Boris leads with 30, then Gove and Hunt each have 29, Raab has 23, Javid 17 and Hancock 11
> >
> > https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/06/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html
> >
>
> Interesting but the only person I heard express a preference was Alan Duncan who said he wasn't voting for Johnson yet Guido has him in their Johnson Column whereas Wiki has him in Hunt's. Knowing Guido's scant regard for accuracy I would guess Wiki probably has it right
I thought it was understood that Duncan was unhappy with Johnson at the FCO - so his support for Boris would seem unlikely
"Hard Brexit Hallelujah"