"Nearly all applicants for US visas will have to submit their social media details under newly adopted rules. The State Department regulations say people will have to submit social media names and five years' worth of email addresses and phone numbers. When proposed last year, authorities estimated the proposal would affect 14.7 million people annually."
> > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
>
>
> It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told.
Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
+ 1
I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
> @not_on_fire said: > I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
Cohen in the Observer has a column on that today. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/01/both-left-and-right-should-fear-justified-rage-of-remainers "The extremism on the right has produced a reaction among pro-Europeans. Hardly anyone was arguing to overturn the referendum in the summer of 2016. The People’s Vote campaign wasn’t even founded until April 2018. If rightists had moderated their demands, Britain would be out of the EU by now. As it was, they talked as if half the country were traitors and rushed to the fanatical fringe. So great has been the backlash that, without any politician organising them, six million signed a petition calling for article 50 to be revoked."
> @AndyJS said: > Here comes Big Brother: > > "Nearly all applicants for US visas will have to submit their social media details under newly adopted rules. > The State Department regulations say people will have to submit social media names and five years' worth of email addresses and phone numbers. > When proposed last year, authorities estimated the proposal would affect 14.7 million people annually." > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48486672
Shan't be going then. Don't suppose they'll miss me.
> > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
>
>
> It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told.
Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
+ 1
I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars
> @oxfordsimon said: > > @kle4 said: > People will actually be really glad he is coming. It provides an opportunity for us all to compete to see who dislikes him the most, and others can also bemoan what it says about us that he is coming here on a visit (nothing, given he has visited plenty of other places). > > It will give lots of people the chance to virtue signal so hard - it will be nauseating. > > The one thing that would get to someone like Trump more than any protest would just be to completely ignore him. He would hate that - he is always looking for a reaction. > > Ignore him and he won't know how to react > >
I agree. I think protests of this type are often counterproductive. The traditional British way to deal with him would be to ignore him completely.
> > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
>
>
> It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> were told.
Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
+ 1
I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
> > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
>
>
> It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> Yes lld.
Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
+ 1
I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
> > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
>
>
> It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told.
Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
+ 1
I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars
> > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
>
>
> It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told.
Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
+ 1
I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars
You must be furious with the ERG.
Leave voters should be, and seemingly are, angry at the establishment. Remainers should be kissing their feet. How often do the losers still get to be in with a punchers chance 3 years after they were defeated?
> > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
>
>
> It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told.
Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
+ 1
I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars
You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign.
Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards.
If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others.
> Leave voters should be, and seemingly are, angry at the establishment. Remainers should be kissing their feet. How often do the losers still get to be in with a punchers chance 3 years after they were defeated?
You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign.
Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards.
If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others.
According to a caller to any answers today, whose company exported to 120 countries, the last time we approached No Deal, we were pretty much ready. The small agreements needed to function were all in place. I remember an announcement (obviously to zero media fanfare) at the time that No Deal preparations were complete. I am certainly not a proponent of No Deal for its own sake, but perhaps it's a good thing for one reason alone - that the successful outcome will once and for all expose the scaremongering for what it is.
> @GIN1138 said: > > @nunuone said: > > David Cameron may be the last Tory PM to win a majority. > > > > Think about that for a second. > > Maybe. But I quite like the analogy I saw on here a few days - the Tories are like cockroaches. > > Somehow or other they endure and they survive...
Oh I fully expect the Tories to survive. But it's hard to see them governing on their own any time soon.
But then again a week is a long time in politics and all that jazz.
You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign.
Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards.
If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others.
According to a caller to any answers today, whose company exported to 120 countries, the last time we approached No Deal, we were pretty much ready. The small agreements needed to function were all in place. I remember an announcement (obviously to zero media fanfare) at the time that No Deal preparations were complete. I am certainly not a proponent of No Deal for its own sake, but perhaps it's a good thing for one reason alone - that the successful outcome will once and for all expose the scaremongering for what it is.
A caller to any answers..... that’s reassuring.
We drop out of 700 agreements. Overnight. If you think all those have been replaced, I’d like some of what you’re smoking.
After seeing the Blairites last attempted coup I am intensely relaxed about the idea and welcome the challenge!
I can't really see the case for a Blairite coup following a loss to the Brexit party.
In terms of a logically coherent case based on electoral reasons no, but then that was never the reason for attempting one in the first place.
In a way it could be healthy, after Corbyn won again in 2016 the renewed mandate was helpful for party management. Hopefully after failing again a chunk of the remaining 'keep attacking him until he dies' fraternity give up and move on.
You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign.
Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards.
If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others.
According to a caller to any answers today, whose company exported to 120 countries, the last time we approached No Deal, we were pretty much ready. The small agreements needed to function were all in place. I remember an announcement (obviously to zero media fanfare) at the time that No Deal preparations were complete. I am certainly not a proponent of No Deal for its own sake, but perhaps it's a good thing for one reason alone - that the successful outcome will once and for all expose the scaremongering for what it is.
A caller to any answers..... that’s reassuring.
We drop out of 700 agreements. Overnight. If you think all those have been replaced, I’d like some of what you’re smoking.
I mention it merely because actually being in business offers a different perspective to excitable comment threads on a political website.
> @nunuone said: > > @GIN1138 said: > > > @nunuone said: > > > David Cameron may be the last Tory PM to win a majority. > > > > > > Think about that for a second. > > > > Maybe. But I quite like the analogy I saw on here a few days - the Tories are like cockroaches. > > > > Somehow or other they endure and they survive... > > Oh I fully expect the Tories to survive. But it's hard to see them governing on their own any time soon. > > But then again a week is a long time in politics and all that jazz.
The conservative interest morphs and changes name as required. The present Conservative party is a busted flush. Its brand is too contaminated to win the votes of those potentially inclined to back conservative ideals in too much of the north and Midlands and Wales.
Watch how quickly the conservative interest (capital, frightened middle class, traditionalists et al) rally around the first visible successor when Mr Corbyn enters Downing Street.
> > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
>
>
> It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told.
Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
+ 1
I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars
You must be furious with the ERG.
Leave voters should be, and seemingly are, angry at the establishment. Remainers should be kissing their feet. How often do the losers still get to be in with a punchers chance 3 years after they were defeated?
At the next GE the losers will have the opportunity to overturn the result of the previous GE.
> @not_on_fire said: > > @DavidL said: > > > > @DavidL said: > > > > > > > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced. > > > > > > Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told. > > > > Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well. > > I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well. > > + 1 > > I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages. > > Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars > > You must be furious with the ERG. > > Leave voters should be, and seemingly are, angry at the establishment. Remainers should be kissing their feet. How often do the losers still get to be in with a punchers chance 3 years after they were defeated? > > At the next GE the losers will have the opportunity to overturn the result of the previous GE.
Are we ever told at general elections that it'll be the final vote on the matter?
> Are we ever told at general elections that it'll be the final vote on the matter?
Analogy time: if I sell you London Bridge and its actual owners refuse to hand it over, your quarrel is with me and no one else (except my accomplices). You don't get the bridge on the grounds that you were told it was yours. Cameron made you a promise he had no business making, and if you feel strongly about it, I suggest you write him a really stiffly worded letter about it. His promises are not binding on anyone else, and wouldn't be even if he were still pm.
> @Ishmael_Z said: > > @RobD said: > > > Are we ever told at general elections that it'll be the final vote on the matter? > > Analogy time: if I sell you London Bridge and its actual owners refuse to hand it over, your quarrel is with me and no one else (except my accomplices). You don't get the bridge on the grounds that you were told it was yours. Cameron made you a promise he had no business making, and if you feel strongly about it, I suggest you write him a really stiffly worded letter about it. His promises are not binding on anyone else, and wouldn't be even if he were still pm.
It wasn't just Cameron. Most of the political class were saying the result would be respected, or were they just talking bollocks?
> > Are we ever told at general elections that it'll be the final vote on the matter?
>
> Analogy time: if I sell you London Bridge and its actual owners refuse to hand it over, your quarrel is with me and no one else (except my accomplices). You don't get the bridge on the grounds that you were told it was yours. Cameron made you a promise he had no business making, and if you feel strongly about it, I suggest you write him a really stiffly worded letter about it. His promises are not binding on anyone else, and wouldn't be even if he were still pm.
It wasn't just Cameron. Most of the political class were saying the result would be respected, or were they just talking bollocks?
> @RobD said: > > @Ishmael_Z said: > > > @RobD said: > > > > > Are we ever told at general elections that it'll be the final vote on the matter? > > > > Analogy time: if I sell you London Bridge and its actual owners refuse to hand it over, your quarrel is with me and no one else (except my accomplices). You don't get the bridge on the grounds that you were told it was yours. Cameron made you a promise he had no business making, and if you feel strongly about it, I suggest you write him a really stiffly worded letter about it. His promises are not binding on anyone else, and wouldn't be even if he were still pm. > > It wasn't just Cameron. Most of the political class were saying the result would be respected, or were they just talking bollocks?
They weren't, inasmuch as they really meant it. They were, inasmuch as the promise had no legal basis.
Still, the fact that the promise was made makes me loath to ignore the result, as much as I might want to. And the legal decisions made in the aftermath of the vote have enshrined Brexit in case law.
> @nico67 said: > It looks like the only way to rid the country of the Farage hate mob and the ERG nutjobs is to deliver a no deal. >
That would be ironic though, n'est-ce pas? And anyway I disagree. Any resolution of the matter will dampen down the Farageists. Voting through the WA would do it, because once Brexit has been achieved in any form, a lot of the Brexiters will become less active again, similar to the state of affairs at the end of last year. (Is the WA dead now? There's been some speculation that Corbyn might do a u-turn, as he sees his preferred options going up in smoke, but will there even be another opportunity to support the WA now that May's stepping down?)
Having a 2nd referendum that Remain won would also do the trick, vis-a-vis the Farageists, as long as we don't also have a general election. It's my earnest belief that if we had a 2nd ref later this year and we voted to stay in the EU, the Brexit Party would not sustain high levels of support until 2022.
I think this Times article is saying that Alan Duncan, Mark Field and Harriet Baldwin are backing Jeremy Hunt, (although I can't read the whole article because I'm not an online subscriber).
"The Labour candidate for the by-election in Peterborough has apologised after ‘liking’ an anti-Semitic Facebook post, but emphasised she did not agree with the views expressed.
Lisa Forbes said she “apologised wholeheartedly for not calling out these posts” and will “deepen” her understanding of anti-Semitism whether she is elected or not, so she can challenge it in the future."
> @Dadge said: > > @nico67 said: > > It looks like the only way to rid the country of the Farage hate mob and the ERG nutjobs is to deliver a no deal. > > > > That would be ironic though, n'est-ce pas? And anyway I disagree. Any resolution of the matter will dampen down the Farageists. Voting through the WA would do it, because once Brexit has been achieved in any form, a lot of the Brexiters will become less active again, similar to the state of affairs at the end of last year. (Is the WA dead now? There's been some speculation that Corbyn might do a u-turn, as he sees his preferred options going up in smoke, but will there even be another opportunity to support the WA now that May's stepping down?) > > Having a 2nd referendum that Remain won would also do the trick, vis-a-vis the Farageists, as long as we don't also have a general election. It's my earnest belief that if we had a 2nd ref later this year and we voted to stay in the EU, the Brexit Party would not sustain high levels of support until 2022. > >
Your earnest belief is greatly misplaced. Thete were plenty of Brexit supporters who did not vote for Farage yet but who would switch to him if Brexit were cancelled.
> @not_on_fire said: > > @DavidL said: > > > > @DavidL said: > > > > > > > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced. > > > > > > Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told. > > > > Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well. > > I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well. > > + 1 > > I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages. > > Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars > > You must be furious with the ERG. > > Leave voters should be, and seemingly are, angry at the establishment. Remainers should be kissing their feet. How often do the losers still get to be in with a punchers chance 3 years after they were defeated? > > At the next GE the losers will have the opportunity to overturn the result of the previous GE.
At a GE the results of the previous votes have slready been enacted. In this case thry have not.
You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign.
Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards.
If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others.
According to a caller to any answers today, whose company exported to 120 countries, the last time we approached No Deal, we were pretty much ready. The small agreements needed to function were all in place. I remember an announcement (obviously to zero media fanfare) at the time that No Deal preparations were complete. I am certainly not a proponent of No Deal for its own sake, but perhaps it's a good thing for one reason alone - that the successful outcome will once and for all expose the scaremongering for what it is.
A caller to any answers..... that’s reassuring.
We drop out of 700 agreements. Overnight. If you think all those have been replaced, I’d like some of what you’re smoking.
Then there is the simple matter of customs capacity at ports and borders. We do not have the people and infrastructure for WTO.
> @Luckyguy1983 said: > I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
On the contrary, Mr Guy. As you put it so nicely, the proles were quite thick enough to vote obediently after their browbeating by the media barons and the impossible contradictory promises of the likes of Johnson and Farage. The "spitting rage of remainers" is directed rather more towards the dishonesty of Trump`s Toadies, and the incredible mess that they have brought us to.
F1: hmm. Ladbrokes special has 9 winning every race in 2019.
I think I had the 2004 (ish) season results on a poster on my wall. From memory, Ferrari won all but one or two races that year.
They've been dominant this year, including at differing circuit types. But Leclerc could've and should've won in Bahrain, and might've challenged in Azerbaijan had he not screwed up qualifying. Plus, Red Bull tend to develop well.
It's worth considering but probably not one I'm going to back.
"The Labour candidate for the by-election in Peterborough has apologised after ‘liking’ an anti-Semitic Facebook post, but emphasised she did not agree with the views expressed.
Lisa Forbes said she “apologised wholeheartedly for not calling out these posts” and will “deepen” her understanding of anti-Semitism whether she is elected or not, so she can challenge it in the future."
A confused explanation to say the least. She does not agree with it, yet needs to deepen her understanding because, what, she did agree with it before or else did not notice it was anti semitic? What in it did she agree with given she liked it?
Given one of the posts in question I maintain if you talk about british imperialism you could get a lot of people to agree with anything else you put in. Substitute for Marxism for a similar effect.
> @kle4 said: > "The Labour candidate for the by-election in Peterborough has apologised after ‘liking’ an anti-Semitic Facebook post, but emphasised she did not agree with the views expressed. > > > > Lisa Forbes said she “apologised wholeheartedly for not calling out these posts” and will “deepen” her understanding of anti-Semitism whether she is elected or not, so she can challenge it in the future." > > > > https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/politics/labour-s-peterborough-by-election-candidate-apologises-after-liking-anti-semitic-facebook-post-1-8948348 > > A confused explanation to say the least. She does not agree with it, yet needs to deepen her understanding because, what she did agree with it before or else did not notice it was anti semitic? What in it did she agree with given she liked it? > > Given one of the posts in question I maintain if you talk about british imperialism you could get a lot of people to agree with anything else you put in. Substitute for Marxism for a similar effect.
She needs to be trained to spot well-hidden clues like “our Zionist slave masters”?
The fear of no deal softening as reported in polling is not an encouraging sign. Unless the no deal leavers are totally right people becoming more relaxed about it is worse since feeling relaxed doesnt changes its impact. And I doubt May and co stepped back from no deal because it would be a cakewalk and they dont like cake.
> "The Labour candidate for the by-election in Peterborough has apologised after ‘liking’ an anti-Semitic Facebook post, but emphasised she did not agree with the views expressed.
>
>
>
> Lisa Forbes said she “apologised wholeheartedly for not calling out these posts” and will “deepen” her understanding of anti-Semitism whether she is elected or not, so she can challenge it in the future."
> A confused explanation to say the least. She does not agree with it, yet needs to deepen her understanding because, what she did agree with it before or else did not notice it was anti semitic? What in it did she agree with given she liked it?
>
> Given one of the posts in question I maintain if you talk about british imperialism you could get a lot of people to agree with anything else you put in. Substitute for Marxism for a similar effect.
She needs to be trained to spot well-hidden clues like “our Zionist slave masters”?
> @Foxy said: > U > > You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign. > > Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards. > > If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others. > > According to a caller to any answers today, whose company exported to 120 countries, the last time we approached No Deal, we were pretty much ready. The small agreements needed to function were all in place. I remember an announcement (obviously to zero media fanfare) at the time that No Deal preparations were complete. I am certainly not a proponent of No Deal for its own sake, but perhaps it's a good thing for one reason alone - that the successful outcome will once and for all expose the scaremongering for what it is. > > A caller to any answers..... that’s reassuring. > > We drop out of 700 agreements. Overnight. If you think all those have been replaced, I’d like some of what you’re smoking. > > > > Then there is the simple matter of customs capacity at ports and borders. We do not have the people and infrastructure for WTO.
Although aren’t some experts suggesting that the extra obstacles to exporting physical goods are more likely to mean the ports are deserted?
> I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
On the contrary, Mr Guy. As you put it so nicely, the proles were quite thick enough to vote obediently after their browbeating by the media barons and the impossible contradictory promises of the likes of Johnson and Farage. The "spitting rage of remainers" is directed rather more towards the dishonesty of Trump`s Toadies, and the incredible mess that they have brought us to.
At least you are not denying the main issue is the public, rather than skirt around that and only imply they are thick.
Since nobody replied when I asked about the Betfair May retirement market, I asked Betfair for further clarification, and very promptly had this reply:
Thanks for getting in touch.
I have looked into the matter for you an dI can confirm that for the way we are interpreting as her exit date is the day that she formally steps down as Leader.
Although Theresa May has announced that on June 7th she will resign, whilst unlikely as you have said, there is still a possibility that this won't go through. As this is the case, we will only settle once her replacement is confirmed and steps up to take the role instead of her.
So if Theresa May announces her resignation on June 7th, which is expected, however her successor is announced at a later point, it would be the case that we settle on when she officially ceases to be a leader in any form.
I hope this clears up any confusion for you.
Let me know if there is anything else we can help with.
Thanks,
Francesca Betfair Customer Service Management --------------
I interpret this as meaning that the test is whether she continues as interim leader (which probably makes the handover date July) or appoints someone else (which makes it June). That seems to me uncertain, so I've cashed out - others may take a different view or want to press Francesca further. There are good odds available (roughly even) on Exchange either way.
> @nico67 said: > It looks like the only way to rid the country of the Farage hate mob and the ERG nutjobs is to deliver a no deal. > > Give the fantasists what they want and let them own it . At least it will destroy the Tories for a generation . > >
That depends. The less blinkered of the headbangers are already talking about “mini-deals” because they know that leaving with no deal is an action, not an end state, and will throw up a multitude of issues that need to be resolved subsequently in agreement with the EU. For anything significant the EU is sure to insist on our payment the 39 billion and on other conditions that will take us slowly back toward something like the WA. There will be plenty of opportunity for Farage to cry betrayal along the way, assuming he still has the ambition.
Leave voters should be, and seemingly are, angry at the establishment. Remainers should be kissing their feet. How often do the losers still get to be in with a punchers chance 3 years after they were defeated?
'Losers', 'Winners', 'Defeated' ... a puncher's chance ...
Language, as always, is telling.
I think you are setting yourself up for a fall with this. If you see it as a win/lose battle, then if we end up Remaining (if 'the punch lands' in your parlance) you will feel like you have actually been punched. Punched very hard in the gut. With all that that entails.
Much better IMO to see this Brexit crisis not as WW2 but rather as an intense and traumatic national experience lasting half a decade or so, during which much will occur to test our character, and at the end of which those of us who see it to the end will be changed in ways that may be difficult to express to those who come after us.
> "The Labour candidate for the by-election in Peterborough has apologised after ‘liking’ an anti-Semitic Facebook post, but emphasised she did not agree with the views expressed.
>
>
>
> Lisa Forbes said she “apologised wholeheartedly for not calling out these posts” and will “deepen” her understanding of anti-Semitism whether she is elected or not, so she can challenge it in the future."
> A confused explanation to say the least. She does not agree with it, yet needs to deepen her understanding because, what she did agree with it before or else did not notice it was anti semitic? What in it did she agree with given she liked it?
>
> Given one of the posts in question I maintain if you talk about british imperialism you could get a lot of people to agree with anything else you put in. Substitute for Marxism for a similar effect.
She needs to be trained to spot well-hidden clues like “our Zionist slave masters”?
Well that could mean anything, be reasonable.
Ah, and I see she's going with the Corbyn defence of not looking at things:
"I liked a video of school children praying in solidarity with the Christchurch attacks, not the views expressed in the accompanying text".
Of, course, in his case other people defended the errant liking as fine, even undermining his comments as a result, so be interesting to see if theres any defence here which might give a sign of the plausibility of the defence. I mean, we've all not read stuff .
Leave voters should be, and seemingly are, angry at the establishment. Remainers should be kissing their feet. How often do the losers still get to be in with a punchers chance 3 years after they were defeated?
'Losers', 'Winners', 'Defeated' ... a puncher's chance ...
Language, as always, is telling.
I think you are setting yourself up for a fall with this. If you see it as a win/lose battle, then if we end up Remaining (if 'the punch lands' in your parlance) you will feel like you have actually been punched. Punched very hard in the gut. With all that that entails.
Much better IMO to see this Brexit crisis not as WW2 but rather as an intense and traumatic national experience lasting half a decade or so, during which much will occur to test our character, and at the end of which those of us who see it to the end will be changed in ways that may be difficult to express to those who come after us.
Only one side should take this philosophical approach?
> @not_on_fire said: > > @DavidL said: > > > > @DavidL said: > > > > > > > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced. > > > > > > Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told. > > > > Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well. > > I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well. > > + 1 > > I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages. > > Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars > > You must be furious with the ERG.
That gets forgotten about, we could have left on time if it hadn't been for the ERG traitors.
> You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign.
>
> Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards.
>
> If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others.
>
> According to a caller to any answers today, whose company exported to 120 countries, the last time we approached No Deal, we were pretty much ready. The small agreements needed to function were all in place. I remember an announcement (obviously to zero media fanfare) at the time that No Deal preparations were complete. I am certainly not a proponent of No Deal for its own sake, but perhaps it's a good thing for one reason alone - that the successful outcome will once and for all expose the scaremongering for what it is.
>
> A caller to any answers..... that’s reassuring.
>
> We drop out of 700 agreements. Overnight. If you think all those have been replaced, I’d like some of what you’re smoking.
>
>
>
> Then there is the simple matter of customs capacity at ports and borders. We do not have the people and infrastructure for WTO.
Although aren’t some experts suggesting that the extra obstacles to exporting physical goods are more likely to mean the ports are deserted?
I agree, there are likely to be few queues when there are few exports and imports. I wouldn't regard that as showing good preparation though.
> @kle4 said: > > @Luckyguy1983 said: > > > I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages. > > > > On the contrary, Mr Guy. As you put it so nicely, the proles were quite thick enough to vote obediently after their browbeating by the media barons and the impossible contradictory promises of the likes of Johnson and Farage. The "spitting rage of remainers" is directed rather more towards the dishonesty of Trump`s Toadies, and the incredible mess that they have brought us to. > > At least you are not denying the main issue is the public, rather than skirt around that and only imply they are thick.
The issue has become like abortion in the US. Arguments about Brexit (like abortion in the US) barely focus any more on the merits of the issue. They're about your being a good person, and your opponent being a bad person.
> > I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
>
>
>
> On the contrary, Mr Guy. As you put it so nicely, the proles were quite thick enough to vote obediently after their browbeating by the media barons and the impossible contradictory promises of the likes of Johnson and Farage. The "spitting rage of remainers" is directed rather more towards the dishonesty of Trump`s Toadies, and the incredible mess that they have brought us to.
>
> At least you are not denying the main issue is the public, rather than skirt around that and only imply they are thick.
The issue has become like abortion in the US. Arguments about Brexit (like abortion in the US) barely focus any more on the merits of the issue. They're about your being a good person, and your opponent being a bad person.
I agree with you. But that's because we're clearly good people
> You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign.
>
> Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards.
>
> If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others.
>
> According to a caller to any answers today, whose company exported to 120 countries, the last time we approached No Deal, we were pretty much ready. The small agreements needed to function were all in place. I remember an announcement (obviously to zero media fanfare) at the time that No Deal preparations were complete. I am certainly not a proponent of No Deal for its own sake, but perhaps it's a good thing for one reason alone - that the successful outcome will once and for all expose the scaremongering for what it is.
>
> A caller to any answers..... that’s reassuring.
>
> We drop out of 700 agreements. Overnight. If you think all those have been replaced, I’d like some of what you’re smoking.
>
>
>
> Then there is the simple matter of customs capacity at ports and borders. We do not have the people and infrastructure for WTO.
Although aren’t some experts suggesting that the extra obstacles to exporting physical goods are more likely to mean the ports are deserted?
But we will surely need to import tumbrils of brushwood to blow down our deserted streets while people starve and wail?
> @Luckyguy1983 said: > Corbyn facing a fresh coup if the Brexit Party gain Peterborough > > > > https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1134931369740636161 > > > > After seeing the Blairites last attempted coup I am intensely relaxed about the idea and welcome the challenge! > > I can't really see the case for a Blairite coup following a loss to the Brexit party.
That made me smile. There seems to be a serious identity crisis within Labour at the moment. The only thing holding it together are fear of the overworked 'Blairites'. On the same subject this also made me laugh from Nick Cohen ....
"....... The ignorance about the forces shaping the country is leading at least some in Labour to pretend that it can prosper if Corbyn sacks his far-left courtiers and pretends to convert to Remain. It’s as if socialist journalists believe that inside the modern Remainer there’s a Russian peasant struggling to get out."
> @DavidL said: > > @Foxy said: > > > U > > > > > > You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign. > > > > > > Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards. > > > > > > If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others. > > > > > > According to a caller to any answers today, whose company exported to 120 countries, the last time we approached No Deal, we were pretty much ready. The small agreements needed to function were all in place. I remember an announcement (obviously to zero media fanfare) at the time that No Deal preparations were complete. I am certainly not a proponent of No Deal for its own sake, but perhaps it's a good thing for one reason alone - that the successful outcome will once and for all expose the scaremongering for what it is. > > > > > > A caller to any answers..... that’s reassuring. > > > > > > We drop out of 700 agreements. Overnight. If you think all those have been replaced, I’d like some of what you’re smoking. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then there is the simple matter of customs capacity at ports and borders. We do not have the people and infrastructure for WTO. > > > > Although aren’t some experts suggesting that the extra obstacles to exporting physical goods are more likely to mean the ports are deserted? > > But we will surely need to import tumbrils of brushwood to blow down our deserted streets while people starve and wail?
Nah, we will just eat more lamb and potatoes and less other stuff. Sure some businesses will have to source stuff differently, and some of the more marginal will cease trading, but that is what putting up new trade barriers with our major market means.
Life will go on, just in a diminished way, and Leaverstan will expect Remania to pay their bills.
> > According to a caller to any answers today, whose company exported to 120 countries, the last time we approached No Deal, we were pretty much ready. The small agreements needed to function were all in place. I remember an announcement (obviously to zero media fanfare) at the time that No Deal preparations were complete. I am certainly not a proponent of No Deal for its own sake, but perhaps it's a good thing for one reason alone - that the successful outcome will once and for all expose the scaremongering for what it is.
>
> >
>
> > A caller to any answers..... that’s reassuring.
>
> >
>
> > We drop out of 700 agreements. Overnight. If you think all those have been replaced, I’d like some of what you’re smoking.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Then there is the simple matter of customs capacity at ports and borders. We do not have the people and infrastructure for WTO.
>
>
>
> Although aren’t some experts suggesting that the extra obstacles to exporting physical goods are more likely to mean the ports are deserted?
>
> But we will surely need to import tumbrils of brushwood to blow down our deserted streets while people starve and wail?
Nah, we will just eat more lamb and potatoes and less other stuff. Sure some businesses will have to source stuff differently, and some of the more marginal will cease trading, but that is what putting up new trade barriers with our major market means.
Life will go on, just in a diminished way, and Leaverstan will expect Remania to pay their bills.
I supported May's deal. I still think a transitional period is sensible and I would want a FTA with the EU to be in place permanently but, jeez, the ridiculous hyperbole we read on here and see in our media is just so annoying and absurd that I get to the point that it would almost be worth it to show what nonsense it all was.
That gets forgotten about, we could have left on time if it hadn't been for the ERG traitors.
I still think they're all closet remainers. Surely nobody could be as dumb as they pretend to be?
If they are undercover remainers they are doing a cracking job. Remainers had completely given up. There seemed no practical means of stopping leaving until those guys started throwing their oar in.
Why do the Brexit voters persist in their misguided and ignorant attitudes?
Perhaps I can help with a thought experiment. Suppose Remain had won 52 - 48, but the MPs, in their infinite wisdom, had decided to leave anyway.
Would Remainers have accepted this?
After all, the MPS must be sovereign. The voters can't be trusted because; they're immature, easily led, and susceptible to populism. The Guardian says so.
I know some replies will answer a question I didn't ask, but how many would honestly say … yes?
Why do the Brexit voters persist in their misguided and ignorant attitudes?
Perhaps I can help with a thought experiment. Suppose Remain had won 52 - 48, but the MPs, in their infinite wisdom, had decided to leave anyway.
Would Remainers have accepted this?
After all, the MPS must be sovereign. The voters can't be trusted because; they're immature, easily led, and susceptible to populism. The Guardian says so.
I know some replies will answer a question I didn't ask, but how many would honestly say … yes?
As a leaver I would not have accepted that. I would have expected our MPs to seek to address the deep dissatisfaction that a 48% vote indicated and look to find a better relationship with the EU going forward but it would have been an outrage if MPs had thought the answer was to leave in such a scenario.
Why do the Brexit voters persist in their misguided and ignorant attitudes?
Perhaps I can help with a thought experiment. Suppose Remain had won 52 - 48, but the MPs, in their infinite wisdom, had decided to leave anyway.
Would Remainers have accepted this?
After all, the MPS must be sovereign. The voters can't be trusted because; they're immature, easily led, and susceptible to populism. The Guardian says so.
I know some replies will answer a question I didn't ask, but how many would honestly say … yes?
Clearly remainers would not have accepted your scenario and would have voted accordingly at the next election.
But you aren't describing the mirror image of the current situation. Leave won, but leave backing MPs have blocked leaving. Remainers can quite legitimately question whether the leavers even know what it is they want.
> @Recidivist said: > Why do the Brexit voters persist in their misguided and ignorant attitudes? > > > > Perhaps I can help with a thought experiment. Suppose Remain had won 52 - 48, but the MPs, in their infinite wisdom, had decided to leave anyway. > > > > Would Remainers have accepted this? > > > > After all, the MPS must be sovereign. The voters can't be trusted because; they're immature, easily led, and susceptible to populism. The Guardian says so. > > > > I know some replies will answer a question I didn't ask, but how many would honestly say … yes? > > Clearly remainers would not have accepted your scenario and would have voted accordingly at the next election. > > But you aren't describing the mirror image of the current situation. Leave won, but leave backing MPs have blocked leaving. Remainers can quite legitimately question whether the leavers even know what it is they want.
There has never been a majority of leave MPs in Parliament. It will require some Remain MPs to vote for it.
> @PClipp said: > > @Luckyguy1983 said: > > I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages. > > On the contrary, Mr Guy. As you put it so nicely, the proles were quite thick enough to vote obediently after their browbeating by the media barons and the impossible contradictory promises of the likes of Johnson and Farage. The "spitting rage of remainers" is directed rather more towards the dishonesty of Trump`s Toadies, and the incredible mess that they have brought us to.
I'm not sure that the leave campaign changed many votes. Pretty much every leave voter I know had decided on that position long before the referendum was called, never mind before Boris and co painted some numbers on the side of a bus.
Forget about the party or NHS politics of it this is classic 'boss' politics . Lots of fawning subordinates .Notice when he was batting he wasn't offering up catches but when bowling the obliging batter kept teeing him up to the extent that he played one just hard enough to allow the boss to make a super catch! A bit North Korea like!
> > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
>
>
> It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told.
Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
+ 1
I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars
You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign.
Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards.
If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others.
If Remain MPs had voted for the deal, we’d have left and no deal would be impossible, but they’d rather gamble on a chance of not leaving at all, so we are where we are.
As I've said before, my view was the government should have instructed the CS to come up with the best deal possible and accepted it, even if this was a no-deal.
The ballot box at the next GE would then record the publics' verdict. Cameron actively stopped them gaming any alternatives to Remain.
You are either a democrat or you're not, and that means accepting you won't always get what you want. The so called Liberal Democrats were calling for a new vote within hours after the referendum and now they are solidly for revoke.
Had they accepted the result and then actively called to re-join, they would be have lived up to their name. I've voted LD before, but I find this reprehensible.
BTW, Labour refusnik votes in the HoC comprised three times as many as the ERG and that was predictable.
Edit. Once you insisted on the MPs being involved, you guaranteed a f*ck-up. They are liars, and only interested in their own party careers. They've now been found out.
Same goes for Remainers defending Obama’s intervention; they must feel Trump’s behaviour is ok, why obsess on other people’s supposed double standards?
> @theProle said: > > @PClipp said: > > > @Luckyguy1983 said: > > > I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages. > > > > On the contrary, Mr Guy. As you put it so nicely, the proles were quite thick enough to vote obediently after their browbeating by the media barons and the impossible contradictory promises of the likes of Johnson and Farage. The "spitting rage of remainers" is directed rather more towards the dishonesty of Trump`s Toadies, and the incredible mess that they have brought us to. > > I'm not sure that the leave campaign changed many votes. Pretty much every leave voter I know had decided on that position long before the referendum was called, never mind before Boris and co painted some numbers on the side of a bus.
Yes, I think so too. Years of Europhobia from the right wing press and of unwillingness by Cameron and Osborne et al to put the opposite case over those years are where the referendum was lost. The unwillingness of Corbyn to support a strong Remain line and the effectiveness of Leave at motivating their voters are what made the crucial extra few hundered thousand votes.
Dr. Foxy, the failure of the EU to be open to reform, or for UK politicians to push for a looser rather than more integrated relationship, and of Brown reneging upon the referendum pledge were also serious factors.
If I'd genuinely believed the EU could be reformed in a looser rather than tighter fashion, I would've voted Remain. Brown's actions on Lisbon also persuaded me this would be the only vote I'd ever have on the matter.
> @RobD said: > > @Recidivist said: > > Why do the Brexit voters persist in their misguided and ignorant attitudes? > > > > > > > > Perhaps I can help with a thought experiment. Suppose Remain had won 52 - 48, but the MPs, in their infinite wisdom, had decided to leave anyway. > > > > > > > > Would Remainers have accepted this? > > > > > > > > After all, the MPS must be sovereign. The voters can't be trusted because; they're immature, easily led, and susceptible to populism. The Guardian says so. > > > > > > > > I know some replies will answer a question I didn't ask, but how many would honestly say … yes? > > > > Clearly remainers would not have accepted your scenario and would have voted accordingly at the next election. > > > > But you aren't describing the mirror image of the current situation. Leave won, but leave backing MPs have blocked leaving. Remainers can quite legitimately question whether the leavers even know what it is they want. > > There has never been a majority of leave MPs in Parliament. It will require some Remain MPs to vote for it.
Many remain-supporting MPs have voted to leave already, by triggering a50 and then supporting Mays deal. The deal was blocked because the most fanatical leavers voted it down.
> @anothernick said: > > @RobD said: > > > @Recidivist said: > > > Why do the Brexit voters persist in their misguided and ignorant attitudes? > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps I can help with a thought experiment. Suppose Remain had won 52 - 48, but the MPs, in their infinite wisdom, had decided to leave anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > Would Remainers have accepted this? > > > > > > > > > > > > After all, the MPS must be sovereign. The voters can't be trusted because; they're immature, easily led, and susceptible to populism. The Guardian says so. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know some replies will answer a question I didn't ask, but how many would honestly say … yes? > > > > > > Clearly remainers would not have accepted your scenario and would have voted accordingly at the next election. > > > > > > But you aren't describing the mirror image of the current situation. Leave won, but leave backing MPs have blocked leaving. Remainers can quite legitimately question whether the leavers even know what it is they want. > > > > There has never been a majority of leave MPs in Parliament. It will require some Remain MPs to vote for it. > > Many remain-supporting MPs have voted to leave already, by triggering a50 and then supporting Mays deal. The deal was blocked because the most fanatical leavers voted it down.
Could also say it was blocked because a large number of Remain MPs voted it down.
> > > Why do the Brexit voters persist in their misguided and ignorant attitudes?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Perhaps I can help with a thought experiment. Suppose Remain had won 52 - 48, but the MPs, in their infinite wisdom, had decided to leave anyway.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Would Remainers have accepted this?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > After all, the MPS must be sovereign. The voters can't be trusted because; they're immature, easily led, and susceptible to populism. The Guardian says so.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I know some replies will answer a question I didn't ask, but how many would honestly say … yes?
> > >
> > > Clearly remainers would not have accepted your scenario and would have voted accordingly at the next election.
> > >
> > > But you aren't describing the mirror image of the current situation. Leave won, but leave backing MPs have blocked leaving. Remainers can quite legitimately question whether the leavers even know what it is they want.
> >
> > There has never been a majority of leave MPs in Parliament. It will require some Remain MPs to vote for it.
>
> Many remain-supporting MPs have voted to leave already, by triggering a50 and then supporting Mays deal. The deal was blocked because the most fanatical leavers voted it down.
Could also say it was blocked because a large number of Remain MPs voted it down.
But that wouldn't be fair would it. If ardent leavers aren't supporting leaving, why the heck should remainers?
Comments
> Quite a rollercoaster for the LibDems - dropping from first to fourth place in the polls in just 48 hours!
Different polls, different methodologies, unlikely anything in the real world has changed, only the measurement of it has.
> > @AndyJS said:
> > Liz Truss goes public with Boris.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1134934550008737794
>
> Two Sinners uniting?
Tory Trollop backs serial philanderer!
"Nearly all applicants for US visas will have to submit their social media details under newly adopted rules.
The State Department regulations say people will have to submit social media names and five years' worth of email addresses and phone numbers.
When proposed last year, authorities estimated the proposal would affect 14.7 million people annually."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48486672
> I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
Cohen in the Observer has a column on that today.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/01/both-left-and-right-should-fear-justified-rage-of-remainers
"The extremism on the right has produced a reaction among pro-Europeans. Hardly anyone was arguing to overturn the referendum in the summer of 2016. The People’s Vote campaign wasn’t even founded until April 2018. If rightists had moderated their demands, Britain would be out of the EU by now. As it was, they talked as if half the country were traitors and rushed to the fanatical fringe. So great has been the backlash that, without any politician organising them, six million signed a petition calling for article 50 to be revoked."
> Here comes Big Brother:
>
> "Nearly all applicants for US visas will have to submit their social media details under newly adopted rules.
> The State Department regulations say people will have to submit social media names and five years' worth of email addresses and phone numbers.
> When proposed last year, authorities estimated the proposal would affect 14.7 million people annually."
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48486672
Shan't be going then. Don't suppose they'll miss me.
> > @kle4 said:
> People will actually be really glad he is coming. It provides an opportunity for us all to compete to see who dislikes him the most, and others can also bemoan what it says about us that he is coming here on a visit (nothing, given he has visited plenty of other places).
>
> It will give lots of people the chance to virtue signal so hard - it will be nauseating.
>
> The one thing that would get to someone like Trump more than any protest would just be to completely ignore him. He would hate that - he is always looking for a reaction.
>
> Ignore him and he won't know how to react
>
>
I agree. I think protests of this type are often counterproductive. The traditional British way to deal with him would be to ignore him completely.
Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards.
If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others.
> Leave voters should be, and seemingly are, angry at the establishment. Remainers should be kissing their feet. How often do the losers still get to be in with a punchers chance 3 years after they were defeated?
A general election?
> > @nunuone said:
> > David Cameron may be the last Tory PM to win a majority.
> >
> > Think about that for a second.
>
> Maybe. But I quite like the analogy I saw on here a few days - the Tories are like cockroaches.
>
> Somehow or other they endure and they survive...
Oh I fully expect the Tories to survive. But it's hard to see them governing on their own any time soon.
But then again a week is a long time in politics and all that jazz.
We drop out of 700 agreements. Overnight. If you think all those have been replaced, I’d like some of what you’re smoking.
In a way it could be healthy, after Corbyn won again in 2016 the renewed mandate was helpful for party management. Hopefully after failing again a chunk of the remaining 'keep attacking him until he dies' fraternity give up and move on.
Give the fantasists what they want and let them own it . At least it will destroy the Tories for a generation .
> > @GIN1138 said:
> > > @nunuone said:
> > > David Cameron may be the last Tory PM to win a majority.
> > >
> > > Think about that for a second.
> >
> > Maybe. But I quite like the analogy I saw on here a few days - the Tories are like cockroaches.
> >
> > Somehow or other they endure and they survive...
>
> Oh I fully expect the Tories to survive. But it's hard to see them governing on their own any time soon.
>
> But then again a week is a long time in politics and all that jazz.
The conservative interest morphs and changes name as required. The present Conservative party is a busted flush. Its brand is too contaminated to win the votes of those potentially inclined to back conservative ideals in too much of the north and Midlands and Wales.
Watch how quickly the conservative interest (capital, frightened middle class, traditionalists et al) rally around the first visible successor when Mr Corbyn enters Downing Street.
> > @DavidL said:
>
> > > @DavidL said:
>
> >
>
> > > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> >
>
> > Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
>
> I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
>
> + 1
>
> I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
>
> Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars
>
> You must be furious with the ERG.
>
> Leave voters should be, and seemingly are, angry at the establishment. Remainers should be kissing their feet. How often do the losers still get to be in with a punchers chance 3 years after they were defeated?
>
> At the next GE the losers will have the opportunity to overturn the result of the previous GE.
Are we ever told at general elections that it'll be the final vote on the matter?
https://mobile.twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1134701439790583808
> Are we ever told at general elections that it'll be the final vote on the matter?
Analogy time: if I sell you London Bridge and its actual owners refuse to hand it over, your quarrel is with me and no one else (except my accomplices). You don't get the bridge on the grounds that you were told it was yours. Cameron made you a promise he had no business making, and if you feel strongly about it, I suggest you write him a really stiffly worded letter about it. His promises are not binding on anyone else, and wouldn't be even if he were still pm.
> > @RobD said:
>
> > Are we ever told at general elections that it'll be the final vote on the matter?
>
> Analogy time: if I sell you London Bridge and its actual owners refuse to hand it over, your quarrel is with me and no one else (except my accomplices). You don't get the bridge on the grounds that you were told it was yours. Cameron made you a promise he had no business making, and if you feel strongly about it, I suggest you write him a really stiffly worded letter about it. His promises are not binding on anyone else, and wouldn't be even if he were still pm.
It wasn't just Cameron. Most of the political class were saying the result would be respected, or were they just talking bollocks?
> > @Ishmael_Z said:
> > > @RobD said:
> >
> > > Are we ever told at general elections that it'll be the final vote on the matter?
> >
> > Analogy time: if I sell you London Bridge and its actual owners refuse to hand it over, your quarrel is with me and no one else (except my accomplices). You don't get the bridge on the grounds that you were told it was yours. Cameron made you a promise he had no business making, and if you feel strongly about it, I suggest you write him a really stiffly worded letter about it. His promises are not binding on anyone else, and wouldn't be even if he were still pm.
>
> It wasn't just Cameron. Most of the political class were saying the result would be respected, or were they just talking bollocks?
They weren't, inasmuch as they really meant it. They were, inasmuch as the promise had no legal basis.
Still, the fact that the promise was made makes me loath to ignore the result, as much as I might want to. And the legal decisions made in the aftermath of the vote have enshrined Brexit in case law.
> It looks like the only way to rid the country of the Farage hate mob and the ERG nutjobs is to deliver a no deal.
>
That would be ironic though, n'est-ce pas? And anyway I disagree. Any resolution of the matter will dampen down the Farageists. Voting through the WA would do it, because once Brexit has been achieved in any form, a lot of the Brexiters will become less active again, similar to the state of affairs at the end of last year. (Is the WA dead now? There's been some speculation that Corbyn might do a u-turn, as he sees his preferred options going up in smoke, but will there even be another opportunity to support the WA now that May's stepping down?)
Having a 2nd referendum that Remain won would also do the trick, vis-a-vis the Farageists, as long as we don't also have a general election. It's my earnest belief that if we had a 2nd ref later this year and we voted to stay in the EU, the Brexit Party would not sustain high levels of support until 2022.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnsons-dream-team-falls-apart-bfsdnvcxb
Important to look for the good in each option.
Lisa Forbes said she “apologised wholeheartedly for not calling out these posts” and will “deepen” her understanding of anti-Semitism whether she is elected or not, so she can challenge it in the future."
https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/politics/labour-s-peterborough-by-election-candidate-apologises-after-liking-anti-semitic-facebook-post-1-8948348
> > @nico67 said:
> > It looks like the only way to rid the country of the Farage hate mob and the ERG nutjobs is to deliver a no deal.
> >
>
> That would be ironic though, n'est-ce pas? And anyway I disagree. Any resolution of the matter will dampen down the Farageists. Voting through the WA would do it, because once Brexit has been achieved in any form, a lot of the Brexiters will become less active again, similar to the state of affairs at the end of last year. (Is the WA dead now? There's been some speculation that Corbyn might do a u-turn, as he sees his preferred options going up in smoke, but will there even be another opportunity to support the WA now that May's stepping down?)
>
> Having a 2nd referendum that Remain won would also do the trick, vis-a-vis the Farageists, as long as we don't also have a general election. It's my earnest belief that if we had a 2nd ref later this year and we voted to stay in the EU, the Brexit Party would not sustain high levels of support until 2022.
>
>
Your earnest belief is greatly misplaced. Thete were plenty of Brexit supporters who did not vote for Farage yet but who would switch to him if Brexit were cancelled.
> > @DavidL said:
>
> > > @DavidL said:
>
> >
>
> > > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> >
>
> > Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
>
> I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
>
> + 1
>
> I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
>
> Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars
>
> You must be furious with the ERG.
>
> Leave voters should be, and seemingly are, angry at the establishment. Remainers should be kissing their feet. How often do the losers still get to be in with a punchers chance 3 years after they were defeated?
>
> At the next GE the losers will have the opportunity to overturn the result of the previous GE.
At a GE the results of the previous votes have slready been enacted. In this case thry have not.
https://twitter.com/NursingNotesUK/status/1134707857100869633?s=19
Did anyone bet on the Joshua fight?
> I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
On the contrary, Mr Guy. As you put it so nicely, the proles were quite thick enough to vote obediently after their browbeating by the media barons and the impossible contradictory promises of the likes of Johnson and Farage. The "spitting rage of remainers" is directed rather more towards the dishonesty of Trump`s Toadies, and the incredible mess that they have brought us to.
I think I had the 2004 (ish) season results on a poster on my wall. From memory, Ferrari won all but one or two races that year.
They've been dominant this year, including at differing circuit types. But Leclerc could've and should've won in Bahrain, and might've challenged in Azerbaijan had he not screwed up qualifying. Plus, Red Bull tend to develop well.
It's worth considering but probably not one I'm going to back.
> "The Labour candidate for the by-election in Peterborough has apologised after ‘liking’ an anti-Semitic Facebook post, but emphasised she did not agree with the views expressed.
>
> Lisa Forbes said she “apologised wholeheartedly for not calling out these posts” and will “deepen” her understanding of anti-Semitism whether she is elected or not, so she can challenge it in the future."
>
> https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/politics/labour-s-peterborough-by-election-candidate-apologises-after-liking-anti-semitic-facebook-post-1-8948348
It's the way they tell em
Given one of the posts in question I maintain if you talk about british imperialism you could get a lot of people to agree with anything else you put in. Substitute for Marxism for a similar effect.
> "The Labour candidate for the by-election in Peterborough has apologised after ‘liking’ an anti-Semitic Facebook post, but emphasised she did not agree with the views expressed.
>
>
>
> Lisa Forbes said she “apologised wholeheartedly for not calling out these posts” and will “deepen” her understanding of anti-Semitism whether she is elected or not, so she can challenge it in the future."
>
>
>
> https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/politics/labour-s-peterborough-by-election-candidate-apologises-after-liking-anti-semitic-facebook-post-1-8948348
>
> A confused explanation to say the least. She does not agree with it, yet needs to deepen her understanding because, what she did agree with it before or else did not notice it was anti semitic? What in it did she agree with given she liked it?
>
> Given one of the posts in question I maintain if you talk about british imperialism you could get a lot of people to agree with anything else you put in. Substitute for Marxism for a similar effect.
She needs to be trained to spot well-hidden clues like “our Zionist slave masters”?
> U
>
> You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign.
>
> Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards.
>
> If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others.
>
> According to a caller to any answers today, whose company exported to 120 countries, the last time we approached No Deal, we were pretty much ready. The small agreements needed to function were all in place. I remember an announcement (obviously to zero media fanfare) at the time that No Deal preparations were complete. I am certainly not a proponent of No Deal for its own sake, but perhaps it's a good thing for one reason alone - that the successful outcome will once and for all expose the scaremongering for what it is.
>
> A caller to any answers..... that’s reassuring.
>
> We drop out of 700 agreements. Overnight. If you think all those have been replaced, I’d like some of what you’re smoking.
>
>
>
> Then there is the simple matter of customs capacity at ports and borders. We do not have the people and infrastructure for WTO.
Although aren’t some experts suggesting that the extra obstacles to exporting physical goods are more likely to mean the ports are deserted?
Thanks for getting in touch.
I have looked into the matter for you an dI can confirm that for the way we are interpreting as her exit date is the day that she formally steps down as Leader.
Although Theresa May has announced that on June 7th she will resign, whilst unlikely as you have said, there is still a possibility that this won't go through. As this is the case, we will only settle once her replacement is confirmed and steps up to take the role instead of her.
So if Theresa May announces her resignation on June 7th, which is expected, however her successor is announced at a later point, it would be the case that we settle on when she officially ceases to be a leader in any form.
I hope this clears up any confusion for you.
Let me know if there is anything else we can help with.
Thanks,
Francesca
Betfair Customer Service Management
--------------
I interpret this as meaning that the test is whether she continues as interim leader (which probably makes the handover date July) or appoints someone else (which makes it June). That seems to me uncertain, so I've cashed out - others may take a different view or want to press Francesca further. There are good odds available (roughly even) on Exchange either way.
> It looks like the only way to rid the country of the Farage hate mob and the ERG nutjobs is to deliver a no deal.
>
> Give the fantasists what they want and let them own it . At least it will destroy the Tories for a generation .
>
>
That depends. The less blinkered of the headbangers are already talking about “mini-deals” because they know that leaving with no deal is an action, not an end state, and will throw up a multitude of issues that need to be resolved subsequently in agreement with the EU. For anything significant the EU is sure to insist on our payment the 39 billion and on other conditions that will take us slowly back toward something like the WA. There will be plenty of opportunity for Farage to cry betrayal along the way, assuming he still has the ambition.
Language, as always, is telling.
I think you are setting yourself up for a fall with this. If you see it as a win/lose battle, then if we end up Remaining (if 'the punch lands' in your parlance) you will feel like you have actually been punched. Punched very hard in the gut. With all that that entails.
Much better IMO to see this Brexit crisis not as WW2 but rather as an intense and traumatic national experience lasting half a decade or so, during which much will occur to test our character, and at the end of which those of us who see it to the end will be changed in ways that may be difficult to express to those who come after us.
"I liked a video of school children praying in solidarity with the Christchurch attacks, not the views expressed in the accompanying text".
Of, course, in his case other people defended the errant liking as fine, even undermining his comments as a result, so be interesting to see if theres any defence here which might give a sign of the plausibility of the defence. I mean, we've all not read stuff .
Meanwhile we hear prople are getting more supportive of Boris and no deal, not less.
> > @DavidL said:
>
> > > @DavidL said:
>
> >
>
> > > It will surely now be a shock if TBP don't win Peterborough. How will that affect the HoC? It is only 1 seat but those MPs whose constituencies voted leave (by far the majority) will surely pause to think about the implications. Will they hold their nerve and continue to defy the expressed wish of the electorate? I'm not sure.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It could also affect the Tory leadership ballots, which will begin 4 days after the Peterborough result is announced.
>
> >
>
> > Yes it will. My fear (since I have no admiration at all for Farage) is that they are not going to win Peterborough, they are going to smash everyone else into oblivion. I really don't think people in the London bubble have got any idea even now how angry the majority of the country is that they have not done what they were told.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately that ignorance is shared by far too many posters on here as well.
>
> I think you underestimate how much anger there is from Remainers about Brexit as well.
>
> + 1
>
> I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
>
> Imagine losing a vote, then it not being enacted for over three years so you still haven’t actually lost, and being angry about it! Remainers should be thanking their lucky stars
>
> You must be furious with the ERG.
That gets forgotten about, we could have left on time if it hadn't been for the ERG traitors.
> > @Luckyguy1983 said:
>
> > I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
>
>
>
> On the contrary, Mr Guy. As you put it so nicely, the proles were quite thick enough to vote obediently after their browbeating by the media barons and the impossible contradictory promises of the likes of Johnson and Farage. The "spitting rage of remainers" is directed rather more towards the dishonesty of Trump`s Toadies, and the incredible mess that they have brought us to.
>
> At least you are not denying the main issue is the public, rather than skirt around that and only imply they are thick.
The issue has become like abortion in the US. Arguments about Brexit (like abortion in the US) barely focus any more on the merits of the issue. They're about your being a good person, and your opponent being a bad person.
https://twitter.com/PENamerican/status/1134915016694669312
> Corbyn facing a fresh coup if the Brexit Party gain Peterborough
>
>
>
> https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1134931369740636161
>
>
>
> After seeing the Blairites last attempted coup I am intensely relaxed about the idea and welcome the challenge!
>
> I can't really see the case for a Blairite coup following a loss to the Brexit party.
That made me smile. There seems to be a serious identity crisis within Labour at the moment. The only thing holding it together are fear of the overworked 'Blairites'. On the same subject this also made me laugh from Nick Cohen ....
"....... The ignorance about the forces shaping the country is leading at least some in Labour to pretend that it can prosper if Corbyn sacks his far-left courtiers and pretends to convert to Remain. It’s as if socialist journalists believe that inside the modern Remainer there’s a Russian peasant struggling to get out."
> > @Foxy said:
>
> > U
>
> >
>
> > You just don’t get it. I’d have been ok with leaving with a deal, just as the leavers promised during the referendum campaign.
>
> >
>
> > Then they trashed the only deal that was feasible given the red lines they wanted and are now hijacking the result to give us something uncertain and potentially very dangerous without any preparation for it or for any plan for what happens afterwards.
>
> >
>
> > If I’m now much more pro-Remain than I ever was during the campaign it has been the idiocy and behaviour of the Leavers which has made me so. So damned right I am angry at people who have lied to us and are now willing to inflict harm on others.
>
> >
>
> > According to a caller to any answers today, whose company exported to 120 countries, the last time we approached No Deal, we were pretty much ready. The small agreements needed to function were all in place. I remember an announcement (obviously to zero media fanfare) at the time that No Deal preparations were complete. I am certainly not a proponent of No Deal for its own sake, but perhaps it's a good thing for one reason alone - that the successful outcome will once and for all expose the scaremongering for what it is.
>
> >
>
> > A caller to any answers..... that’s reassuring.
>
> >
>
> > We drop out of 700 agreements. Overnight. If you think all those have been replaced, I’d like some of what you’re smoking.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Then there is the simple matter of customs capacity at ports and borders. We do not have the people and infrastructure for WTO.
>
>
>
> Although aren’t some experts suggesting that the extra obstacles to exporting physical goods are more likely to mean the ports are deserted?
>
> But we will surely need to import tumbrils of brushwood to blow down our deserted streets while people starve and wail?
Nah, we will just eat more lamb and potatoes and less other stuff. Sure some businesses will have to source stuff differently, and some of the more marginal will cease trading, but that is what putting up new trade barriers with our major market means.
Life will go on, just in a diminished way, and Leaverstan will expect Remania to pay their bills.
> Meanwhile, in American news:
> https://twitter.com/PENamerican/status/1134915016694669312
Trump really does see isolationism as the best plan for America. That is the real echo of the 1930s. Lindberghism rather than European style Fascism.
> At a GE the results of the previous votes have already been enacted. In this case they have not.
Given that it was an advisory referendum, has parliament not been duly advised?
Perhaps I can help with a thought experiment. Suppose Remain had won 52 - 48, but the MPs, in their infinite wisdom, had decided to leave anyway.
Would Remainers have accepted this?
After all, the MPS must be sovereign. The voters can't be trusted because; they're immature, easily led, and susceptible to populism. The Guardian says so.
I know some replies will answer a question I didn't ask, but how many would honestly say … yes?
But you aren't describing the mirror image of the current situation. Leave won, but leave backing MPs have blocked leaving. Remainers can quite legitimately question whether the leavers even know what it is they want.
> Why do the Brexit voters persist in their misguided and ignorant attitudes?
>
>
>
> Perhaps I can help with a thought experiment. Suppose Remain had won 52 - 48, but the MPs, in their infinite wisdom, had decided to leave anyway.
>
>
>
> Would Remainers have accepted this?
>
>
>
> After all, the MPS must be sovereign. The voters can't be trusted because; they're immature, easily led, and susceptible to populism. The Guardian says so.
>
>
>
> I know some replies will answer a question I didn't ask, but how many would honestly say … yes?
>
> Clearly remainers would not have accepted your scenario and would have voted accordingly at the next election.
>
> But you aren't describing the mirror image of the current situation. Leave won, but leave backing MPs have blocked leaving. Remainers can quite legitimately question whether the leavers even know what it is they want.
There has never been a majority of leave MPs in Parliament. It will require some Remain MPs to vote for it.
> > @Luckyguy1983 said:
> > I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
>
> On the contrary, Mr Guy. As you put it so nicely, the proles were quite thick enough to vote obediently after their browbeating by the media barons and the impossible contradictory promises of the likes of Johnson and Farage. The "spitting rage of remainers" is directed rather more towards the dishonesty of Trump`s Toadies, and the incredible mess that they have brought us to.
I'm not sure that the leave campaign changed many votes. Pretty much every leave voter I know had decided on that position long before the referendum was called, never mind before Boris and co painted some numbers on the side of a bus.
> It looks like the SoS for Health is the star of the new series of The Office.
>
> https://twitter.com/NursingNotesUK/status/1134707857100869633
Forget about the party or NHS politics of it this is classic 'boss' politics . Lots of fawning subordinates .Notice when he was batting he wasn't offering up catches but when bowling the obliging batter kept teeing him up to the extent that he played one just hard enough to allow the boss to make a super catch! A bit North Korea like!
As I've said before, my view was the government should have instructed the CS to come up with the best deal possible and accepted it, even if this was a no-deal.
The ballot box at the next GE would then record the publics' verdict. Cameron actively stopped them gaming any alternatives to Remain.
You are either a democrat or you're not, and that means accepting you won't always get what you want. The so called Liberal Democrats were calling for a new vote within hours after the referendum and now they are solidly for revoke.
Had they accepted the result and then actively called to re-join, they would be have lived up to their name. I've voted LD before, but I find this reprehensible.
BTW, Labour refusnik votes in the HoC comprised three times as many as the ERG and that was predictable.
Edit. Once you insisted on the MPs being involved, you guaranteed a f*ck-up. They are liars, and only interested in their own party careers. They've now been found out.
> > @PClipp said:
> > > @Luckyguy1983 said:
> > > I hardly think anyone here is underestimating that. The spitting rage of remainers that the proles were too thick to vote obediently after their browbeating is on more or less constant display on these pages.
> >
> > On the contrary, Mr Guy. As you put it so nicely, the proles were quite thick enough to vote obediently after their browbeating by the media barons and the impossible contradictory promises of the likes of Johnson and Farage. The "spitting rage of remainers" is directed rather more towards the dishonesty of Trump`s Toadies, and the incredible mess that they have brought us to.
>
> I'm not sure that the leave campaign changed many votes. Pretty much every leave voter I know had decided on that position long before the referendum was called, never mind before Boris and co painted some numbers on the side of a bus.
Yes, I think so too. Years of Europhobia from the right wing press and of unwillingness by Cameron and Osborne et al to put the opposite case over those years are where the referendum was lost. The unwillingness of Corbyn to support a strong Remain line and the effectiveness of Leave at motivating their voters are what made the crucial extra few hundered thousand votes.
If I'd genuinely believed the EU could be reformed in a looser rather than tighter fashion, I would've voted Remain. Brown's actions on Lisbon also persuaded me this would be the only vote I'd ever have on the matter.
> I think this Times article is saying that Alan Duncan, Mark Field and Harriet Baldwin are backing Jeremy Hunt, (although I can't read the whole article because I'm not an online subscriber).
>
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnsons-dream-team-falls-apart-bfsdnvcxb
Can confirm it is!
> > @Recidivist said:
> > Why do the Brexit voters persist in their misguided and ignorant attitudes?
> >
> >
> >
> > Perhaps I can help with a thought experiment. Suppose Remain had won 52 - 48, but the MPs, in their infinite wisdom, had decided to leave anyway.
> >
> >
> >
> > Would Remainers have accepted this?
> >
> >
> >
> > After all, the MPS must be sovereign. The voters can't be trusted because; they're immature, easily led, and susceptible to populism. The Guardian says so.
> >
> >
> >
> > I know some replies will answer a question I didn't ask, but how many would honestly say … yes?
> >
> > Clearly remainers would not have accepted your scenario and would have voted accordingly at the next election.
> >
> > But you aren't describing the mirror image of the current situation. Leave won, but leave backing MPs have blocked leaving. Remainers can quite legitimately question whether the leavers even know what it is they want.
>
> There has never been a majority of leave MPs in Parliament. It will require some Remain MPs to vote for it.
Many remain-supporting MPs have voted to leave already, by triggering a50 and then supporting Mays deal. The deal was blocked because the most fanatical leavers voted it down.
> > @RobD said:
> > > @Recidivist said:
> > > Why do the Brexit voters persist in their misguided and ignorant attitudes?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Perhaps I can help with a thought experiment. Suppose Remain had won 52 - 48, but the MPs, in their infinite wisdom, had decided to leave anyway.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Would Remainers have accepted this?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > After all, the MPS must be sovereign. The voters can't be trusted because; they're immature, easily led, and susceptible to populism. The Guardian says so.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I know some replies will answer a question I didn't ask, but how many would honestly say … yes?
> > >
> > > Clearly remainers would not have accepted your scenario and would have voted accordingly at the next election.
> > >
> > > But you aren't describing the mirror image of the current situation. Leave won, but leave backing MPs have blocked leaving. Remainers can quite legitimately question whether the leavers even know what it is they want.
> >
> > There has never been a majority of leave MPs in Parliament. It will require some Remain MPs to vote for it.
>
> Many remain-supporting MPs have voted to leave already, by triggering a50 and then supporting Mays deal. The deal was blocked because the most fanatical leavers voted it down.
Could also say it was blocked because a large number of Remain MPs voted it down.
> https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1135067998140735488
Rory has doubled his declared support in one morning - now has the big Mo which will take him all the way to Number Ten (in the first ballot).
> https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1135088921103261696
One was meddling with an election that was happening, the other is not.