> @RobD said: > > @sarissa said: > > > @eek said: > > > > > > @RobD said: > > > > > > > @Nigel_Foremain said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @FrancisUrquhart said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see there are reports of some old bloke acting as a teller getting attacked with a milkshake now. Not even a bloody politician. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1131513167975256064 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or he took off his jacket after it got covered? > > > > > > > > > > I don't think that's plausible given where he got splatted. Equally he looks almost happy about it... > > > > > > > > > > So I'm going for a put up job and fake news but it's probably done it's job... > > > > > > > > His milkshake attracts all the boys to the polls > > > > re the Daily Mail story > > - why was he "setting up a stall" when tellers are only allowed to wear a rosette? > > > > Don MacNaughton told SurreyLive he was “making a presence” for the Brexit Party > > Tellers must not: > > • be able to see or hear what is happening inside the polling station > > • impede, obstruct or intimidate voters on their way in or out of the polling station > > • demand any information relating to a voter’s elector number, name or address (i.e only a polite request) > > • ask voters to re-enter the polling station to ascertain their elector number > > • have discussions with voters that may give rise to allegations of undue infuence (e.g. voting intentions, party affliations or party campaigns) > > • display any campaign material in support of or against any particular political party or candidate other than a rosette or badge > > His stall seems to be a chair. And is there any suggestion he was doing any of those?
The arrow clearly indicates the entrance to the polling station - which is round the corner from where his chair is. Assuming he hasn't moved the chair, then there is no way he has a direct line of sight into the polling station. If he had been breaching any of these requirements he would have been moved on by the officer manning the polling station. They are very attentive to such things. (I've been a teller, I know this shit).
> @Theuniondivvie said: > > @ah009 said: > > > @DoubleD said: > > > fascists were socailists > > > > I can't take anybody seriously after they've said that. > > And no, I'm neither a fascist or a socialist. I don't mind either being associated with the other for any other reason that the fact that it's the most deeply ignorant thing you can ever hear in the whole of the political spectrum. > > > > Yup. > I'm sure we all have our favourite signifiers, but for me the 3 infallible signs of dumbassery are Hitler was a socialist, climate change is fake because it's snowing unseasonably in the tiny bit of the world where I live and why do the SNP want leave the easygoing UK for the oppressive EU: THAT'S NOT REAL INDEPENDENCE!!!! > > The self satisfied, drop-the-mike way that these are usually delivered is just the icing on the stoopid cake.
Your list is incomplete, but I endorse each of the items on it
> @TOPPING said: > Postcard from Yurp. > > In Italy. The folks here were laughing (sympathetically, perhaps because I was present) at the UK. We never thought of the UK as being crazy. > > All those years accumulating respect and no small amount of admiration. Undone. Will take generations to regain.
Theyre being nice to you.
Europeans have always thought were nuts much as we return the compliment
> @logical_song said: > > @FrancisUrquhart said: > > > @Floater said: > > > Derek Draper leaves Labour > > > > > > https://order-order.com/2019/05/23/labourlist-founding-editor-quits-labour-35-years/ > > > > Not sure that is a great loss to the cause. Although I do remember when LabourList was worth reading (and Left Foot Forward)...now its all about the fake news crackpot conspiracy sites instead. > > He doesn't really say why he's quitting or where he sits now on the political spectrum.
> @ah009 said: > > @Theuniondivvie said: > > > @ah009 said: > > > > @DoubleD said: > > > > fascists were socailists > > > > > > I can't take anybody seriously after they've said that. > > > And no, I'm neither a fascist or a socialist. I don't mind either being associated with the other for any other reason that the fact that it's the most deeply ignorant thing you can ever hear in the whole of the political spectrum. > > > > > > > Yup. > > I'm sure we all have our favourite signifiers, but for me the 3 infallible signs of dumbassery are Hitler was a socialist, climate change is fake because it's snowing unseasonably in the tiny bit of the world where I live and why do the SNP want leave the easygoing UK for the oppressive EU: THAT'S NOT REAL INDEPENDENCE!!!! > > > > The self satisfied, drop-the-mike way that these are usually delivered is just the icing on the stoopid cake. > > Your list is incomplete, but I endorse each of the items on it
You can achieve anything if you set your mind to it.
A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value.
Wow. The top Guido comment on the Derek Draper story is by a colourful guy called Bruce Everiss. Those of you who had home computers in the 1980s might remember the name.
Getting positive reports from around the country that turnout is quite high. Lib Dems think think they are getting their vote out, but TBP are also firmly in evidence..
> @TOPPING said: > Europeans have always thought were nuts much as we return the compliment > > Yes undoubtedly but they also secretly admired us. Now they just think we're nuts.
some do some dont, there is a long and noble tradition of despising Perfidious Albion since through the years weve pissed most people off at some time - and vice versa of course..
Our love hate with France shows itself up in numerous ways linguistically. In english "french" was often used to denote something iffy - french letter, french leave, french kissing, french cricket.
The french do the same in reverse with "anglais" being a similar term of contempt my favourite is "les anglais ont debarque" - the english have dsiembarked - for a woman having her period.
> @TGOHF said: > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
I know where you're going with this but stop. Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
Mr. Cicero, suspect high turnout favours the Lib Dems.
The elderly are more likely to turn out regardless, and they tend to be more anti-EU. A boost to turnout, I'd suggest, is likely to indicate younger voters who are more pro-EU.
Mr. Brooke, syphilis used to be known as the French disease, I believe.
> @Morris_Dancer said: > > The elderly are more likely to turn out regardless, and they tend to be more anti-EU. A boost to turnout, I'd suggest, is likely to indicate younger voters who are more pro-EU. > ---------
The Remain marches have been very well attended by older people. The ones turning out might not necessarily be Brexit Party voters.
> @Andrew said: > Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out.
> @FrancisUrquhart said: > > @logical_song said: > > > @FrancisUrquhart said: > > > > @Floater said: > > > > Derek Draper leaves Labour > > > > > > > > https://order-order.com/2019/05/23/labourlist-founding-editor-quits-labour-35-years/ > > > > > > Not sure that is a great loss to the cause. Although I do remember when LabourList was worth reading (and Left Foot Forward)...now its all about the fake news crackpot conspiracy sites instead. > > > > He doesn't really say why he's quitting or where he sits now on the political spectrum. > > ChangeUK ;-)
> @ah009 said: > > @TGOHF said: > > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis. > > I know where you're going with this but stop. > Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
I am just waiting for him to tell us what the full name of the Nazi party was. The suspense is stringing me out.
> @Ishmael_Z said: > > @ah009 said: > > > @TGOHF said: > > > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis. > > > > I know where you're going with this but stop. > > Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong. > > I am just waiting for him to tell us what the full name of the Nazi party was. The suspense is stringing me out.
Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei founded by Anton Drexler in 1920 a month after the signing of the Versailles treaty...
> The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
I know where you're going with this but stop.
Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
'Left' and 'Right' have become almost meaningless terms now. The extremes have in common that they are horrible, offensive, violent, intolerant, bigoted, racist and generally disgusting. The moderates (what would be broadly described as 'centre', 'centre left' and ' centre right') are very close to each other on nearly all the big issues.
Brexit is the fascinating exception, which makes it so interesting. It divides the centre on an issue which has to be decided and won't go away. So people have to keep pretending that other centrists are ridiculous and extreme when of course they are not. Of such stuff is made terrible conflicts engagaing the nicest of people. Tragic.
> @williamglenn said: > > @Morris_Dancer said: > > > > The elderly are more likely to turn out regardless, and they tend to be more anti-EU. A boost to turnout, I'd suggest, is likely to indicate younger voters who are more pro-EU. > > > --------- > > The Remain marches have been very well attended by older people. The ones turning out might not necessarily be Brexit Party voters. >
All we can tell is that the people going out to vote today give a shit about coming out or staying in the EU. Their numbers will largely cancel each other out.
> @Andrew said: > Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out.
A low turnout in Scotland was one of the reasons the 2016 referendum wasn't a lot closer.
> @Cicero said: > Getting positive reports from around the country that turnout is quite high. Lib Dems think think they are getting their vote out, but TBP are also firmly in evidence.. > > It might be closer than the last polls suggest.
If the Brexit Party get between 25% and 29.99% a lot of people on this site are going to win some juicy bets. Since their polling average is around 32% it wouldn't take much of a dip in their rating for that to happen.
> @AndyJS said: > > @Andrew said: > > Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out. > > A low turnout in Scotland was one of the reasons the 2016 referendum wasn't a lot closer.
The referendum came very shortly after the Holyrood elections, a year after a Westminster election, which was less than a year after the indyref. It was a busy time for elections in Scotland.
> @algarkirk said: > > @TGOHF said: > > > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis. > > > > I know where you're going with this but stop. > > Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong. > > 'Left' and 'Right' have become almost meaningless terms now. The extremes have in common that they are horrible, offensive, violent, intolerant, bigoted, racist and generally disgusting. The moderates (what would be broadly described as 'centre', 'centre left' and ' centre right') are very close to each other on nearly all the big issues. > > Brexit is the fascinating exception, which makes it so interesting. It divides the centre on an issue which has to be decided and won't go away. So people have to keep pretending that other centrists are ridiculous and extreme when of course they are not. Of such stuff is made terrible conflicts engagaing the nicest of people. Tragic.
I agree it is the most divisive issue of my lifetime and I am nearly seventy. Fortunately my family are all remoaners, but I have friends who are not. We try not to discuss it as it only leads to arguments and each side including myself becomes more intransigent. Despite voting Lib Dem today I just wish the whole sorry mess was over.
> @ah009 said: > > @TGOHF said: > > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis. > > I know where you're going with this but stop. > Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
I did see a very bizarre set of posts on Facebook earlier this year by a US socialist claiming that Left Wing authoritarianism is a myth and is impossible. He claimed that Soviet Russia, China and all the other left wing dictatorships of the 20th century were actually right wing fascist movements because authoritarianism is by definition right wing and the left cannot be authoritarian.
It was strange to watch various people try unsuccessfully - with varying degrees of politeness - to dissuade him of this opinion and in the end he did a mass blocking of everyone who had posted disagreeing with him. I had stayed out of it as I don't tend to do politics on Facebook and only know him via a writers group so remained to see him bemoaning to his remaining friends how the world was filled with fascists and was doomed.
> @AndyJS said: > > @kinabalu said: > > Voted, Hampstead, asked about turnout, "very low" they said. Yet I've had reports of MASSIVE turnout in parts of Essex. Looking great for Leave. I think they will beat their previous 52% comfortably. > > > > Bottom line - people who really want to leave the EU really really want to leave it more than the people who really want to remain really really want to remain. > > > > Happy to be proved wrong on Sunday. > > Although the LDs did very well in many parts of Essex at the local elections.
They have historically done well in the better off parts of Essex in local elections. Doesn’t mean the same people don’t vote Tory in generals or won’t vote Brexit party today.
> @williamglenn said: > > @Morris_Dancer said: > > > > The elderly are more likely to turn out regardless, and they tend to be more anti-EU. A boost to turnout, I'd suggest, is likely to indicate younger voters who are more pro-EU. > > > --------- > > The Remain marches have been very well attended by older people. The ones turning out might not necessarily be Brexit Party voters. >
> @ah009 said: > > @AndyJS said: > > > @Andrew said: > > > Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out. > > > > A low turnout in Scotland was one of the reasons the 2016 referendum wasn't a lot closer. > > The referendum came very shortly after the Holyrood elections, a year after a Westminster election, which was less than a year after the indyref. It was a busy time for elections in Scotland.
The low turnout is conveniently ignored in Scotland. It might have voted to remain, but given the turnout was higher elsewhere you could argue that the more emphatic decisions were taken elsewhere in the UK.
> @Pulpstar said: > > @Ishmael_Z said: > > > @ah009 said: > > > > @TGOHF said: > > > > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis. > > > > > > I know where you're going with this but stop. > > > Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong. > > > > I am just waiting for him to tell us what the full name of the Nazi party was. The suspense is stringing me out. > > Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei founded by Anton Drexler in 1920 a month after the signing of the Versailles treaty...
Actually Drexler founded the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. It was a certain Herr Schikelgruber that added the "Nationalsozialistische" bit.
Fun fact: "Nazi" was a pejorative term coined by their opposition. They never used it to describe themselves, always "National Socialist" or "NS" when an abbreviation was needed.
> @AndyJS said: > > @Cicero said: > > Getting positive reports from around the country that turnout is quite high. Lib Dems think think they are getting their vote out, but TBP are also firmly in evidence.. > > > > It might be closer than the last polls suggest. > > If the Brexit Party get between 25% and 29.99% a lot of people on this site are going to win some juicy bets. Since their polling average is around 32% it wouldn't take much of a dip in their rating for that to happen.
I expect plenty of Brexit party votes will have been posted given the demographic.
> @AndyJS said: > A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value.
I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting.
> @rpjs said: > > @Pulpstar said: > > > @Ishmael_Z said: > > > > @ah009 said: > > > > > @TGOHF said: > > > > > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis. > > > > > > > > I know where you're going with this but stop. > > > > Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong. > > > > > > I am just waiting for him to tell us what the full name of the Nazi party was. The suspense is stringing me out. > > > > Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei founded by Anton Drexler in 1920 a month after the signing of the Versailles treaty... > > Actually Drexler founded the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. It was a certain Herr Schikelgruber that added the "Nationalsozialistische" bit. > > Fun fact: "Nazi" was a pejorative term coined by their opposition. They never used it to describe themselves, always "National Socialist" or "NS" when an abbreviation was needed.
Nicola Sturgeon uses the same abbreviation - spooky
> @RH1992 said: > > @ah009 said: > > > @AndyJS said: > > > > @Andrew said: > > > > Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out. > > > > > > A low turnout in Scotland was one of the reasons the 2016 referendum wasn't a lot closer. > > > > The referendum came very shortly after the Holyrood elections, a year after a Westminster election, which was less than a year after the indyref. It was a busy time for elections in Scotland. > > The low turnout is conveniently ignored in Scotland. It might have voted to remain, but given the turnout was higher elsewhere you could argue that the more emphatic decisions were taken elsewhere in the UK.
Ahh! That explains it. The Scottish Leavers couldn't get to the polls because they were watching Jeremy Kyle.
Unhelpful turnout anecdata post 594: Just went to my polling station in John Major's old seat in deepest Huntingdonshire. Seemed to be a steady stream of people going in and out, at a similar rate to the 2017 election. Asked the polling clerk how busy it was and his response was "I wouldn't say busy, but it's been fairly steady all day".
Clearly we can deduce from that that it's going to be a surprise ChUK landslide with the Greens in 3rd.
> @Brom said: > > @AndyJS said: > > A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value. > > I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting.
oh shit
it will be like the Cleggasm, theyll all stay drinking to 10.15 then turn up at the polling station and whinge that theyve been deprived of their democratic rights.
> @rpjs said: > > @Pulpstar said: > > > @Ishmael_Z said: > > > > @ah009 said: > > > > > @TGOHF said: > > > > > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis. > > > > > > > > I know where you're going with this but stop. > > > > Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong. > > > > > > I am just waiting for him to tell us what the full name of the Nazi party was. The suspense is stringing me out. > > > > Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei founded by Anton Drexler in 1920 a month after the signing of the Versailles treaty... > > Actually Drexler founded the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. It was a certain Herr Schikelgruber that added the "Nationalsozialistische" bit. > > Fun fact: "Nazi" was a pejorative term coined by their opposition. They never used it to describe themselves, always "National Socialist" or "NS" when an abbreviation was needed.
> @TOPPING said: > Delayed anecdote: > > Voted just before 10 this morning at the local hocus-pocus establishment (C of E). > > No voters present when we arrived, 4 others arriving as we were leaving. > > I think that counts as 'Steady'. > > I'm about to drive past there again, so I'll check to see if they are backed up out of the door. > > Such excitement. I'm sure there's a new Netflix mini-series in there.
I'd only do it for the BBC, not Netflix. For the many not the few! Now, time to check out that polling station...
> @kjh said: > I asked at our polling station in Surrey and was told polling was busy (although only myself and my daughter there at the time). > > Re the overseas postal voters not getting their ballot papers in time, I find the excuse of 'we complied with the rules' really, really aggravating. I get really bugged by people who feel meeting the rules is the requirement and not the ends that the rules are there for. It is a real 'jobs worth' attitude that is all to common.
Did they ever bother to read the rules which the council sends out when you ask for a postal vote ? From memory it says the PV can either be sent to the qualifying address - usual or else to another address within or outside the UK. When I did mine albeit ten years ago or so it explicitly said words to the effect, make sure the PV can be returned within the relevant period and the ONUS is on the applicant, not the electoral officer. Bloody common sense.
Now, I know that some of the complaints are that Electoral Services used a carrier who wasn't up to the job. That would only be an issue if they were known to be incompetent
> @Alanbrooke said: > > @Brom said: > > > @AndyJS said: > > > A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value. > > > > I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting. > > oh shit > > it will be like the Cleggasm, theyll all stay drinking to 10.15 then turn up at the polling station and whinge that theyve been deprived of their democratic rights.
They won't vote.
They will be too busy chucking milkshakes at charity workers because one millennial told the other millennial that "that one is a Brexiter". Grenfell all over again.
/skeptical.
BTW at 9am this morning my polling place had had 23 people vote, which was claimed to be about the same as at the Locals.
> @Alanbrooke said: > > @Brom said: > > > @AndyJS said: > > > A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value. > > > > I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting. > > oh shit > > it will be like the Cleggasm, theyll all stay drinking to 10.15 then turn up at the polling station and whinge that theyve been deprived of their democratic rights.
haha! I'm in my 30s and will be out drinking away from my polling station tonight until after 10pm but thankfully voted this morning! Really no excuse to let the weather stop you voting unless its Hurricane Katrina.
> @algarkirk said: > 'Left' and 'Right' have become almost meaningless terms now. The extremes have in common that they are horrible, offensive, violent, intolerant, bigoted, racist and generally disgusting. The moderates (what would be broadly described as 'centre', 'centre left' and ' centre right') are very close to each other on nearly all the big issues. > > Brexit is the fascinating exception, which makes it so interesting. It divides the centre on an issue which has to be decided and won't go away. So people have to keep pretending that other centrists are ridiculous and extreme when of course they are not. Of such stuff is made terrible conflicts engagaing the nicest of people. Tragic.
I see things similarly to you, but the way I would put it is that Brexit is the opening up of two previously relatively unimportant dimensions. The existing dimensions (Left/Right, Liberal/Authoritarian) have been augmented with International/National, Metropolitan/Traditional. Those dimensions were always there, but they have become wedged open.
There is a lot of cognitive dissonance at the moment that people find hard to handle because they find themselves on the same side of new fissures as people they previously opposed. So I find myself listening with admiration to people like Anna Soubry, only to shake myself when I realise what's happening. I've not become a conservative, and she's certainly not stopped being one, but we're now on the same side of _something_, and that something is really important to both of us.
Farage and Galloway is a particularly comic example of this. The definition of the odd couple, in some ways.
Brexit, however it gets resolved, has created a fracture in a dimension we're not used to thinking about. And it's far from clear who's who. There's a lot of populism about right now because nobody's exactly sure who the elites are and what they're doing. Easy to think that the frightening developments are the work of some shadowy other that is thwarting you. The reality is, authority has been weakened, not exposed.
Today I voted for a Remain party that's reasonably far to the left. I nearly voted for a remain party that's pretty centrist. It was the environment that split the difference. So I was delving into an Internationalist pool, and splitting the difference on the Metropolitan axis. The Left/Right and Authoritarian/Liberal side didn't come into it much. But it could have done. If one of them was a bit homophobic, I would have avoided them. If one of them was economically very liberal, I would have been pinching my nose at best to vote for them. Those considerations will come back into play in different elections. Left/Right isn't dead. But it's not the only game in town any more.
> @Brom said: > > @Alanbrooke said: > > > @Brom said: > > > > @AndyJS said: > > > > A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value. > > > > > > I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting. > > > > oh shit > > > > it will be like the Cleggasm, theyll all stay drinking to 10.15 then turn up at the polling station and whinge that theyve been deprived of their democratic rights. > > haha! I'm in my 30s and will be out drinking away from my polling station tonight until after 10pm but thankfully voted this morning! Really no excuse to let the weather stop you voting unless its Hurricane Katrina.
I'm still getting report that turnout will be less than 40% in London
> @nico67 said: > If the BP can’t get at least 35% then they’ll be disappointed . > > They have a lot of things in their favour , more motivated voters and also a gender disparity . > > More men are expected to vote than women and they lean more anti EU as a demographic .
> @isam said: > @isam said: > > Just voted and there were 21 (Twenty one) candidates to choose from! > > > > Between The Brexit Party and UKIP were The UK EU Party, who I almost voted for by mistake. I also nearly voted UKIP by mistake too, I reckon a lot of people will be confused by it all > > > > ++++++++ > > > > I think UKIP will slightly outperform expectations on the basis that some people will still see them as Farage's lot. > > > > I wouldn't be surprised to see them get 5% or even a smidgen more, keeping BXP to 30-31%. > > Yeah easy mistake to make. Especially as they are next to each other on some ballots. > > I am intrigued to know the turnout, will that be revealed tonight do you think?
Verifying tonight so the totals will be known. The invite to the verification says nothing about keeping the total votes cast secret.
Mr. 67, BP need to win. That's their only target here. Adding an artificial ceiling doesn't matter. If they come second on 35% (unlikely but possible) that's far worse than topping the poll with 31%.
Mr. Roger, unworthy of you.
On Monaco: is that a general observation or has a particular thing happened?
> @ah009 said: > I see things similarly to you, but the way I would put it is that Brexit is the opening up of two previously relatively unimportant dimensions. The existing dimensions (Left/Right, Liberal/Authoritarian) have been augmented with International/National, Metropolitan/Traditional. > Those dimensions were always there, but they have become wedged open.
Additional, and paging @Theuniondivvie, this is why people can't get their heads around the idea that Scottish independence/SNP are different from Brexit/Faragism. On the International/National axis, there's a strong resemblance. But the differences in other dimensions are extremely stark. Scottish nationalism is (these days at least) highly metropolitan. That's why there's a huge difference between the SNP's call for EU citizens to make Scotland their home etc. This is despite -- maybe even because -- EU citizens rejected Scottish independence five years ago. Brexit is very Traditionalist in character, which is why it's gone down like a bucket of cold sick in London, Oxford etc. There are also differences in the other dimensions. Not worth yabbering too much on about those as I think the point is well and truly made now.
> @Roger said: > Is it true Mrs May refuses to resign because she wants to to stay on until Trump's visit where she can be sure to have her bottom squeezed? > > In other news Monaco tacky as ever...
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Mr. 67, BP need to win. That's their only target here. Adding an artificial ceiling doesn't matter. If they come second on 35% (unlikely but possible) that's far worse than topping the poll with 31%. > > Mr. Roger, unworthy of you. > > On Monaco: is that a general observation or has a particular thing happened?
I think it might have been some sort of (un)humblebrag ?
I see Verstappen had to stop for a leak, but he ought to be comfortably ahead of the Ferraris on Saturday.
I think these anecdotes re turnout are a bit of fun but as we saw in the locals were misleading.
Generally different demographic groups tend to vote at different times . In the 2017 GE the exit polls showed a good lead for the Tories until later data came in.
Polling report. Note local LD councillors, overall went narrowly Leave. Polling station in mixed area, mostly older and posher, but also significant social housing in suburban Leicester. Lovely sunny day.
Polling lighter than locals, with significant lulls during the day, but evening voters trickling in. I was the only one in the station at 1720. Voted for my party, though tempted by Greens.
> @ah009 said: > > @algarkirk said: > > [deleted] > I see things similarly to you, but the way I would put it is that Brexit is the opening up of two previously relatively unimportant dimensions. The existing dimensions (Left/Right, Liberal/Authoritarian) have been augmented with International/National, Metropolitan/Traditional. > Those dimensions were always there, but they have become wedged open. > > There is a lot of cognitive dissonance at the moment that people find hard to handle because they find themselves on the same side of new fissures as people they previously opposed. So I find myself listening with admiration to people like Anna Soubry, only to shake myself when I realise what's happening. I've not become a conservative, and she's certainly not stopped being one, but we're now on the same side of _something_, and that something is really important to both of us. > > Farage and Galloway is a particularly comic example of this. The definition of the odd couple, in some ways. > > Brexit, however it gets resolved, has created a fracture in a dimension we're not used to thinking about. And it's far from clear who's who. There's a lot of populism about right now because nobody's exactly sure who the elites are and what they're doing. Easy to think that the frightening developments are the work of some shadowy other that is thwarting you. The reality is, authority has been weakened, not exposed. > > Today I voted for a Remain party that's reasonably far to the left. I nearly voted for a remain party that's pretty centrist. It was the environment that split the difference. So I was delving into an Internationalist pool, and splitting the difference on the Metropolitan axis. The Left/Right and Authoritarian/Liberal side didn't come into it much. But it could have done. If one of them was a bit homophobic, I would have avoided them. If one of them was economically very liberal, I would have been pinching my nose at best to vote for them. > Those considerations will come back into play in different elections. Left/Right isn't dead. But it's not the only game in town any more. ___________________
Electoral Calculus has looked at this and called it the seven political tribes. It's another reason we need PR.
I think Farage and Galloway may be the 21st.C version of Michael Foot and Enoch Powell. They were resp. on the Labour left and the Tory right but agreed on very many things.
I haven't come across any of these hypothetical centrist Leavers mooted upthread. By and large they're either disaffected outsiders who want to tear down the system or reactionaries who viscerally dislike the messy compromises of modern life.
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Mr. 67, BP need to win. That's their only target here. Adding an artificial ceiling doesn't matter. If they come second on 35% (unlikely but possible) that's far worse than topping the poll with 31%. > > Mr. Roger, unworthy of you. > > On Monaco: is that a general observation or has a particular thing happened?
It was grey and overcast and struck me as particularly tacky. It's never really struk me before because in the sunshine it usually looks quite glitzy. I believe Hamilton is destined to win particularly as the weather isn't good at the moment.
> @AlastairMeeks said: > I haven't come across any of these hypothetical centrist Leavers mooted upthread. By and large they're either disaffected outsiders who want to tear down the system or reactionaries who viscerally dislike the messy compromises of modern life.
Isn't @stodge a Leave voting LD, but then we do have some rare birds on PB.
> @AlastairMeeks said: > I haven't come across any of these hypothetical centrist Leavers mooted upthread. By and large they're either disaffected outsiders who want to tear down the system or reactionaries who viscerally dislike the messy compromises of modern life.
Mr. Roger, depends how and when the rain falls. He is good in the wet but if the track's drying at the wrong moment it could rob him of a huge amount of time and the grid could be almost a lottery.
Apart from my Leclerc bet, I'm not against a Hamilton win (I have a bet on him exceeding Schumacher's record, which is pretty likely to happen sometime next year).
> @Alanbrooke said: > > @Brom said: > > > @AndyJS said: > > > A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value. > > > > I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting. > > oh shit > > it will be like the Cleggasm, theyll all stay drinking to 10.15 then turn up at the polling station and whinge that theyve been deprived of their democratic rights.
I'm getting flashbacks to the 2017 GE. Shame there's no exit poll for pbers to hysterically declare the worse ever after 0.1% of the actual results have been declared
> Just popped round to the polling station for a chat with one of the tellers, and it's looking like a very good turnout in our (strongly Remain-inclined) town.
Should the additional question be asked as well "Is it old or young people turning out?"
About what I'd expect for early afternoon - mostly older people but a fair smattering of work-at-home 30/40-somethings. But the older people here tend to be pretty progressive too.
Just heard that the election officers have actually phoned the District Council to ask for more ballot boxes! (Who've said no, you don't need any more, just stuff the papers in a bit harder...)
Hmm... government wants them to stuff the ballot boxes?
> @AndyJS said: > Anecdotes about turnout are almost always wrong, but interesting nonetheless when we don't have anything else to talk about.
Yep. We spent Local Election Day talking about deserted polling stations, lists with no-one crossed off and conversations with polling clerks about derisory turnouts, then found that national turnout was pretty normal for a local election.
> @AlastairMeeks said: > I haven't come across any of these hypothetical centrist Leavers mooted upthread. By and large they're either disaffected outsiders who want to tear down the system or reactionaries who viscerally dislike the messy compromises of modern life.
A posting that says a great deal about you (and none of it good) and nothing about leave voters.
> @RH1992 said: > > @ah009 said: > > > @AndyJS said: > > > > @Andrew said: > > > > Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out. > > > > > > A low turnout in Scotland was one of the reasons the 2016 referendum wasn't a lot closer. > > > > The referendum came very shortly after the Holyrood elections, a year after a Westminster election, which was less than a year after the indyref. It was a busy time for elections in Scotland. > > The low turnout is conveniently ignored in Scotland. It might have voted to remain, but given the turnout was higher elsewhere you could argue that the more emphatic decisions were taken elsewhere in the UK.
It was 67% compared to 72% in the UK, hardly an earth shattering difference. Since the 'more emphatic' vote to stay in the EU has been ignored in Scotland in any case, I'm not sure how you'd want the low turnout to be acknowledged.
> @Roger said: > Is it true Mrs May refuses to resign because she wants to to stay on until Trump's visit where she can be sure to have her bottom squeezed? >
I can believe nobody else want to be PM until he's been and gone....
@rural_voter > Electoral Calculus has looked at this and called it the seven political tribes. It's another reason we need PR.
Aye, I've seen this. In some ways, I don't think it quite captures everything, but that seven tribes thing is a huge step forward in our understand, especially in our understanding of our misunderstandings.
> @rottenborough said: > How long before the first conspiracy theory about what is happening to the ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday? > > Now you got me thinking, just what is happening to those ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday?
> @AlastairMeeks said: > How long before the first conspiracy theory about what is happening to the ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday?
The conspiracy theories will start after 10 on Sunday night when we start getting some ideas about how the voting went. If party x has not done as well as expected then you're going to hear a lot of it
> @rottenborough said: > How long before the first conspiracy theory about what is happening to the ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday? > > Now you got me thinking, just what is happening to those ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday?
Chris Grayling is in charge of them being transported to a secure location !
> @Richard_Tyndall said: > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > I haven't come across any of these hypothetical centrist Leavers mooted upthread. By and large they're either disaffected outsiders who want to tear down the system or reactionaries who viscerally dislike the messy compromises of modern life. > > A posting that says a great deal about you (and none of it good) and nothing about leave voters. >
> @AndyJS said: > Anecdotes about turnout are almost always wrong, but interesting nonetheless when we don't have anything else to talk about.
At ours the tellers said they'd been surprised how busy it had been - steady stream through the day. Our eventual tally including the in-laws reported votes:
> @MikeSmithson said: > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > How long before the first conspiracy theory about what is happening to the ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday? > > The conspiracy theories will start after 10 on Sunday night when we start getting some ideas about how the voting went. If party x has not done as well as expected then you're going to hear a lot of it
That should rule tory and ChuK supporters out then :-)
> @MarqueeMark said: > > @Roger said: > > Is it true Mrs May refuses to resign because she wants to to stay on until Trump's visit where she can be sure to have her bottom squeezed? > > > > I can believe nobody else want to be PM until he's been and gone.... >
Well apart from Boris-(squeezed bottom if necessary)
Isn't @stodge a Leave voting LD, but then we do have some rare birds on PB.
Yes and I'll probably vote Lib Dem today (not voted yet).
Quite a day in Kingston by all accounts - I was due a meeting there this afternoon which was cancelled at very short notice as County Hall was being evacuated.
Perhaps I was naïve to assume the Conservative Party, which struggles with the organisation of an alcoholic function in a brewery, would make anything more than a thorough dog's dinner of the job. We have wasted an opportunity to re-shape our country to fit the demands of the 21st Century but I shouldn't be surprised.
> @Scrapheap_as_was said: > > @AndyJS said: > > Anecdotes about turnout are almost always wrong, but interesting nonetheless when we don't have anything else to talk about. > > At ours the tellers said they'd been surprised how busy it had been - steady stream through the day. Our eventual tally including the in-laws reported votes: > > +4 Yellow Peril > -2 Tory > -2 Labour
Great news , thanks for voting for the Lib Dems . As a Labour Remainer good to see others determined to send out a message to the Corbyn cabal. May I ask where are you located ?
Comments
> > @sarissa said:
> > > @eek said:
> >
> > > > @RobD said:
> >
> > > > > @Nigel_Foremain said:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > > > @GIN1138 said:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > > > > @FrancisUrquhart said:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > > > > I see there are reports of some old bloke acting as a teller getting attacked with a milkshake now. Not even a bloody politician.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > > > https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1131513167975256064
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Or he took off his jacket after it got covered?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I don't think that's plausible given where he got splatted. Equally he looks almost happy about it...
> >
> > >
> >
> > > So I'm going for a put up job and fake news but it's probably done it's job...
> >
> >
> >
> > His milkshake attracts all the boys to the polls
> >
> > re the Daily Mail story
> > - why was he "setting up a stall" when tellers are only allowed to wear a rosette?
> >
> > Don MacNaughton told SurreyLive he was “making a presence” for the Brexit Party
> > Tellers must not:
> > • be able to see or hear what is happening inside the polling station
> > • impede, obstruct or intimidate voters on their way in or out of the polling station
> > • demand any information relating to a voter’s elector number, name or address (i.e only a polite request)
> > • ask voters to re-enter the polling station to ascertain their elector number
> > • have discussions with voters that may give rise to allegations of undue infuence (e.g. voting intentions, party affliations or party campaigns)
> > • display any campaign material in support of or against any particular political party or candidate other than a rosette or badge
>
> His stall seems to be a chair. And is there any suggestion he was doing any of those?
The arrow clearly indicates the entrance to the polling station - which is round the corner from where his chair is. Assuming he hasn't moved the chair, then there is no way he has a direct line of sight into the polling station. If he had been breaching any of these requirements he would have been moved on by the officer manning the polling station. They are very attentive to such things. (I've been a teller, I know this shit).
> > @ah009 said:
> > > @DoubleD said:
> > > fascists were socailists
> >
> > I can't take anybody seriously after they've said that.
> > And no, I'm neither a fascist or a socialist. I don't mind either being associated with the other for any other reason that the fact that it's the most deeply ignorant thing you can ever hear in the whole of the political spectrum.
> >
>
> Yup.
> I'm sure we all have our favourite signifiers, but for me the 3 infallible signs of dumbassery are Hitler was a socialist, climate change is fake because it's snowing unseasonably in the tiny bit of the world where I live and why do the SNP want leave the easygoing UK for the oppressive EU: THAT'S NOT REAL INDEPENDENCE!!!!
>
> The self satisfied, drop-the-mike way that these are usually delivered is just the icing on the stoopid cake.
Your list is incomplete, but I endorse each of the items on it
> Postcard from Yurp.
>
> In Italy. The folks here were laughing (sympathetically, perhaps because I was present) at the UK. We never thought of the UK as being crazy.
>
> All those years accumulating respect and no small amount of admiration. Undone. Will take generations to regain.
Theyre being nice to you.
Europeans have always thought were nuts much as we return the compliment
> > @Floater said:
> > Derek Draper leaves Labour
> >
> > https://order-order.com/2019/05/23/labourlist-founding-editor-quits-labour-35-years/
>
> Not sure that is a great loss to the cause. Although I do remember when LabourList was worth reading (and Left Foot Forward)...now its all about the fake news crackpot conspiracy sites instead.
He doesn't really say why he's quitting or where he sits now on the political spectrum.
> The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
Nonsense
It was calling himself Tony and getting elected 3 times :-)
> > @FrancisUrquhart said:
> > > @Floater said:
> > > Derek Draper leaves Labour
> > >
> > > https://order-order.com/2019/05/23/labourlist-founding-editor-quits-labour-35-years/
> >
> > Not sure that is a great loss to the cause. Although I do remember when LabourList was worth reading (and Left Foot Forward)...now its all about the fake news crackpot conspiracy sites instead.
>
> He doesn't really say why he's quitting or where he sits now on the political spectrum.
ChangeUK ;-)
> The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
Said no political historian... ever
> > @Theuniondivvie said:
> > > @ah009 said:
> > > > @DoubleD said:
> > > > fascists were socailists
> > >
> > > I can't take anybody seriously after they've said that.
> > > And no, I'm neither a fascist or a socialist. I don't mind either being associated with the other for any other reason that the fact that it's the most deeply ignorant thing you can ever hear in the whole of the political spectrum.
> > >
> >
> > Yup.
> > I'm sure we all have our favourite signifiers, but for me the 3 infallible signs of dumbassery are Hitler was a socialist, climate change is fake because it's snowing unseasonably in the tiny bit of the world where I live and why do the SNP want leave the easygoing UK for the oppressive EU: THAT'S NOT REAL INDEPENDENCE!!!!
> >
> > The self satisfied, drop-the-mike way that these are usually delivered is just the icing on the stoopid cake.
>
> Your list is incomplete, but I endorse each of the items on it
You can achieve anything if you set your mind to it.
It might be closer than the last polls suggest.
> Europeans have always thought were nuts much as we return the compliment
>
> Yes undoubtedly but they also secretly admired us. Now they just think we're nuts.
some do some dont, there is a long and noble tradition of despising Perfidious Albion since through the years weve pissed most people off at some time - and vice versa of course..
Our love hate with France shows itself up in numerous ways linguistically. In english "french" was often used to denote something iffy - french letter, french leave, french kissing, french cricket.
The french do the same in reverse with "anglais" being a similar term of contempt
my favourite is "les anglais ont debarque" - the english have dsiembarked - for a woman having her period.
Neighbourly.
> The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
I know where you're going with this but stop.
Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
The elderly are more likely to turn out regardless, and they tend to be more anti-EU. A boost to turnout, I'd suggest, is likely to indicate younger voters who are more pro-EU.
Mr. Brooke, syphilis used to be known as the French disease, I believe.
>
> The elderly are more likely to turn out regardless, and they tend to be more anti-EU. A boost to turnout, I'd suggest, is likely to indicate younger voters who are more pro-EU.
>
---------
The Remain marches have been very well attended by older people. The ones turning out might not necessarily be Brexit Party voters.
> Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out.
Charlotte Sq?
> > @logical_song said:
> > > @FrancisUrquhart said:
> > > > @Floater said:
> > > > Derek Draper leaves Labour
> > > >
> > > > https://order-order.com/2019/05/23/labourlist-founding-editor-quits-labour-35-years/
> > >
> > > Not sure that is a great loss to the cause. Although I do remember when LabourList was worth reading (and Left Foot Forward)...now its all about the fake news crackpot conspiracy sites instead.
> >
> > He doesn't really say why he's quitting or where he sits now on the political spectrum.
>
> ChangeUK ;-)
He's going to ChUK it all in?
I'll get my coat.
> > @TGOHF said:
> > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
>
> I know where you're going with this but stop.
> Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
I am just waiting for him to tell us what the full name of the Nazi party was. The suspense is stringing me out.
> > @ah009 said:
> > > @TGOHF said:
> > > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
> >
> > I know where you're going with this but stop.
> > Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
>
> I am just waiting for him to tell us what the full name of the Nazi party was. The suspense is stringing me out.
Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei founded by Anton Drexler in 1920 a month after the signing of the Versailles treaty...
Brexit is the fascinating exception, which makes it so interesting. It divides the centre on an issue which has to be decided and won't go away. So people have to keep pretending that other centrists are ridiculous and extreme when of course they are not. Of such stuff is made terrible conflicts engagaing the nicest of people. Tragic.
> > @Morris_Dancer said:
> >
> > The elderly are more likely to turn out regardless, and they tend to be more anti-EU. A boost to turnout, I'd suggest, is likely to indicate younger voters who are more pro-EU.
> >
> ---------
>
> The Remain marches have been very well attended by older people. The ones turning out might not necessarily be Brexit Party voters.
>
All we can tell is that the people going out to vote today give a shit about coming out or staying in the EU. Their numbers will largely cancel each other out.
> Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out.
A low turnout in Scotland was one of the reasons the 2016 referendum wasn't a lot closer.
> Getting positive reports from around the country that turnout is quite high. Lib Dems think think they are getting their vote out, but TBP are also firmly in evidence..
>
> It might be closer than the last polls suggest.
If the Brexit Party get between 25% and 29.99% a lot of people on this site are going to win some juicy bets. Since their polling average is around 32% it wouldn't take much of a dip in their rating for that to happen.
> > @Andrew said:
> > Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out.
>
> A low turnout in Scotland was one of the reasons the 2016 referendum wasn't a lot closer.
The referendum came very shortly after the Holyrood elections, a year after a Westminster election, which was less than a year after the indyref. It was a busy time for elections in Scotland.
> > @TGOHF said:
>
> > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
>
>
>
> I know where you're going with this but stop.
>
> Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
>
> 'Left' and 'Right' have become almost meaningless terms now. The extremes have in common that they are horrible, offensive, violent, intolerant, bigoted, racist and generally disgusting. The moderates (what would be broadly described as 'centre', 'centre left' and ' centre right') are very close to each other on nearly all the big issues.
>
> Brexit is the fascinating exception, which makes it so interesting. It divides the centre on an issue which has to be decided and won't go away. So people have to keep pretending that other centrists are ridiculous and extreme when of course they are not. Of such stuff is made terrible conflicts engagaing the nicest of people. Tragic.
I agree it is the most divisive issue of my lifetime and I am nearly seventy. Fortunately my family are all remoaners, but I have friends who are not. We try not to discuss it as it only leads to arguments and each side including myself becomes more intransigent. Despite voting Lib Dem today I just wish the whole sorry mess was over.
> > @TGOHF said:
> > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
>
> I know where you're going with this but stop.
> Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
I did see a very bizarre set of posts on Facebook earlier this year by a US socialist claiming that Left Wing authoritarianism is a myth and is impossible. He claimed that Soviet Russia, China and all the other left wing dictatorships of the 20th century were actually right wing fascist movements because authoritarianism is by definition right wing and the left cannot be authoritarian.
It was strange to watch various people try unsuccessfully - with varying degrees of politeness - to dissuade him of this opinion and in the end he did a mass blocking of everyone who had posted disagreeing with him. I had stayed out of it as I don't tend to do politics on Facebook and only know him via a writers group so remained to see him bemoaning to his remaining friends how the world was filled with fascists and was doomed.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > Voted, Hampstead, asked about turnout, "very low" they said. Yet I've had reports of MASSIVE turnout in parts of Essex. Looking great for Leave. I think they will beat their previous 52% comfortably.
> >
> > Bottom line - people who really want to leave the EU really really want to leave it more than the people who really want to remain really really want to remain.
> >
> > Happy to be proved wrong on Sunday.
>
> Although the LDs did very well in many parts of Essex at the local elections.
They have historically done well in the better off parts of Essex in local elections. Doesn’t mean the same people don’t vote Tory in generals or won’t vote Brexit party today.
Voted just before 10 this morning at the local hocus-pocus establishment (C of E).
No voters present when we arrived, 4 others arriving as we were leaving.
I think that counts as 'Steady'.
I'm about to drive past there again, so I'll check to see if they are backed up out of the door.
> > @Morris_Dancer said:
> >
> > The elderly are more likely to turn out regardless, and they tend to be more anti-EU. A boost to turnout, I'd suggest, is likely to indicate younger voters who are more pro-EU.
> >
> ---------
>
> The Remain marches have been very well attended by older people. The ones turning out might not necessarily be Brexit Party voters.
>
I thought the oldies were all dead by now ?
> > @AndyJS said:
> > > @Andrew said:
> > > Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out.
> >
> > A low turnout in Scotland was one of the reasons the 2016 referendum wasn't a lot closer.
>
> The referendum came very shortly after the Holyrood elections, a year after a Westminster election, which was less than a year after the indyref. It was a busy time for elections in Scotland.
The low turnout is conveniently ignored in Scotland. It might have voted to remain, but given the turnout was higher elsewhere you could argue that the more emphatic decisions were taken elsewhere in the UK.
As Westminster politicians conspire, the Brexit Party leader grows more powerful
Matthew Goodwin"
https://unherd.com/2019/05/how-farage-outflanked-everyone/
> > @Ishmael_Z said:
> > > @ah009 said:
> > > > @TGOHF said:
> > > > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
> > >
> > > I know where you're going with this but stop.
> > > Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
> >
> > I am just waiting for him to tell us what the full name of the Nazi party was. The suspense is stringing me out.
>
> Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei founded by Anton Drexler in 1920 a month after the signing of the Versailles treaty...
Actually Drexler founded the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. It was a certain Herr Schikelgruber that added the "Nationalsozialistische" bit.
Fun fact: "Nazi" was a pejorative term coined by their opposition. They never used it to describe themselves, always "National Socialist" or "NS" when an abbreviation was needed.
> > @Cicero said:
> > Getting positive reports from around the country that turnout is quite high. Lib Dems think think they are getting their vote out, but TBP are also firmly in evidence..
> >
> > It might be closer than the last polls suggest.
>
> If the Brexit Party get between 25% and 29.99% a lot of people on this site are going to win some juicy bets. Since their polling average is around 32% it wouldn't take much of a dip in their rating for that to happen.
I expect plenty of Brexit party votes will have been posted given the demographic.
> A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value.
I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting.
> The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
Uh no, the "National" bit was what they cared about, the "Socialist" bit was dropped after Rohm et al were offed.
> > @Pulpstar said:
> > > @Ishmael_Z said:
> > > > @ah009 said:
> > > > > @TGOHF said:
> > > > > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
> > > >
> > > > I know where you're going with this but stop.
> > > > Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
> > >
> > > I am just waiting for him to tell us what the full name of the Nazi party was. The suspense is stringing me out.
> >
> > Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei founded by Anton Drexler in 1920 a month after the signing of the Versailles treaty...
>
> Actually Drexler founded the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. It was a certain Herr Schikelgruber that added the "Nationalsozialistische" bit.
>
> Fun fact: "Nazi" was a pejorative term coined by their opposition. They never used it to describe themselves, always "National Socialist" or "NS" when an abbreviation was needed.
Nicola Sturgeon uses the same abbreviation - spooky
> https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1131568519521406976
I think I would leave if I was getting pulled off in my workplace. Sounds like something way beyond most job descriptions.
> > @ah009 said:
> > > @AndyJS said:
> > > > @Andrew said:
> > > > Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out.
> > >
> > > A low turnout in Scotland was one of the reasons the 2016 referendum wasn't a lot closer.
> >
> > The referendum came very shortly after the Holyrood elections, a year after a Westminster election, which was less than a year after the indyref. It was a busy time for elections in Scotland.
>
> The low turnout is conveniently ignored in Scotland. It might have voted to remain, but given the turnout was higher elsewhere you could argue that the more emphatic decisions were taken elsewhere in the UK.
Ahh! That explains it. The Scottish Leavers couldn't get to the polls because they were watching Jeremy Kyle.
Clearly we can deduce from that that it's going to be a surprise ChUK landslide with the Greens in 3rd.
> > @AndyJS said:
> > A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value.
>
> I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting.
oh shit
it will be like the Cleggasm, theyll all stay drinking to 10.15 then turn up at the polling station and whinge that theyve been deprived of their democratic rights.
> > @Pulpstar said:
> > > @Ishmael_Z said:
> > > > @ah009 said:
> > > > > @TGOHF said:
> > > > > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that there was anything “right wing” about Hitler and the Nazis.
> > > >
> > > > I know where you're going with this but stop.
> > > > Right wing has multiple meanings, and if you're going to go down the road of trying to narrowly define it in ways that try to exclude fascism, you're only going to upset people as well as being wrong.
> > >
> > > I am just waiting for him to tell us what the full name of the Nazi party was. The suspense is stringing me out.
> >
> > Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei founded by Anton Drexler in 1920 a month after the signing of the Versailles treaty...
>
> Actually Drexler founded the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. It was a certain Herr Schikelgruber that added the "Nationalsozialistische" bit.
>
> Fun fact: "Nazi" was a pejorative term coined by their opposition. They never used it to describe themselves, always "National Socialist" or "NS" when an abbreviation was needed.
Bit like Tory and Whig, then?
> Delayed anecdote:
>
> Voted just before 10 this morning at the local hocus-pocus establishment (C of E).
>
> No voters present when we arrived, 4 others arriving as we were leaving.
>
> I think that counts as 'Steady'.
>
> I'm about to drive past there again, so I'll check to see if they are backed up out of the door.
>
> Such excitement. I'm sure there's a new Netflix mini-series in there.
I'd only do it for the BBC, not Netflix. For the many not the few! Now, time to check out that polling station...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-23/u-s-manufacturing-gauge-drops-to-nine-year-low-amid-trade-war?srnd=premium
> I asked at our polling station in Surrey and was told polling was busy (although only myself and my daughter there at the time).
>
> Re the overseas postal voters not getting their ballot papers in time, I find the excuse of 'we complied with the rules' really, really aggravating. I get really bugged by people who feel meeting the rules is the requirement and not the ends that the rules are there for. It is a real 'jobs worth' attitude that is all to common.
Did they ever bother to read the rules which the council sends out when you ask for a postal vote ? From memory it says the PV can either be sent to the qualifying address - usual or else to another address within or outside the UK. When I did mine albeit ten years ago or so it explicitly said words to the effect, make sure the PV can be returned within the relevant period and the ONUS is on the applicant, not the electoral officer. Bloody common sense.
Now, I know that some of the complaints are that Electoral Services used a carrier who wasn't up to the job. That would only be an issue if they were known to be incompetent
> > @Brom said:
> > > @AndyJS said:
> > > A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value.
> >
> > I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting.
>
> oh shit
>
> it will be like the Cleggasm, theyll all stay drinking to 10.15 then turn up at the polling station and whinge that theyve been deprived of their democratic rights.
They won't vote.
They will be too busy chucking milkshakes at charity workers because one millennial told the other millennial that "that one is a Brexiter". Grenfell all over again.
/skeptical.
BTW at 9am this morning my polling place had had 23 people vote, which was claimed to be about the same as at the Locals.
> > @Brom said:
> > > @AndyJS said:
> > > A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value.
> >
> > I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting.
>
> oh shit
>
> it will be like the Cleggasm, theyll all stay drinking to 10.15 then turn up at the polling station and whinge that theyve been deprived of their democratic rights.
haha! I'm in my 30s and will be out drinking away from my polling station tonight until after 10pm but thankfully voted this morning! Really no excuse to let the weather stop you voting unless its Hurricane Katrina.
> 'Left' and 'Right' have become almost meaningless terms now. The extremes have in common that they are horrible, offensive, violent, intolerant, bigoted, racist and generally disgusting. The moderates (what would be broadly described as 'centre', 'centre left' and ' centre right') are very close to each other on nearly all the big issues.
>
> Brexit is the fascinating exception, which makes it so interesting. It divides the centre on an issue which has to be decided and won't go away. So people have to keep pretending that other centrists are ridiculous and extreme when of course they are not. Of such stuff is made terrible conflicts engagaing the nicest of people. Tragic.
I see things similarly to you, but the way I would put it is that Brexit is the opening up of two previously relatively unimportant dimensions. The existing dimensions (Left/Right, Liberal/Authoritarian) have been augmented with International/National, Metropolitan/Traditional.
Those dimensions were always there, but they have become wedged open.
There is a lot of cognitive dissonance at the moment that people find hard to handle because they find themselves on the same side of new fissures as people they previously opposed. So I find myself listening with admiration to people like Anna Soubry, only to shake myself when I realise what's happening. I've not become a conservative, and she's certainly not stopped being one, but we're now on the same side of _something_, and that something is really important to both of us.
Farage and Galloway is a particularly comic example of this. The definition of the odd couple, in some ways.
Brexit, however it gets resolved, has created a fracture in a dimension we're not used to thinking about. And it's far from clear who's who. There's a lot of populism about right now because nobody's exactly sure who the elites are and what they're doing. Easy to think that the frightening developments are the work of some shadowy other that is thwarting you. The reality is, authority has been weakened, not exposed.
Today I voted for a Remain party that's reasonably far to the left. I nearly voted for a remain party that's pretty centrist. It was the environment that split the difference. So I was delving into an Internationalist pool, and splitting the difference on the Metropolitan axis. The Left/Right and Authoritarian/Liberal side didn't come into it much. But it could have done. If one of them was a bit homophobic, I would have avoided them. If one of them was economically very liberal, I would have been pinching my nose at best to vote for them.
Those considerations will come back into play in different elections. Left/Right isn't dead. But it's not the only game in town any more.
> Reminds me a very and very old funny Kenny Dalglish/John Barnes joke
Wasn't it Rodney Marsh to Alf Ramsey?
'If you don't track back I will pull you off at half time'
'Blimey Alf -at QPR we only get a cup of tea and an orange'
They have a lot of things in their favour , more motivated voters and also a gender disparity .
More men are expected to vote than women and they lean more anti EU as a demographic .
> > @Alanbrooke said:
> > > @Brom said:
> > > > @AndyJS said:
> > > > A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value.
> > >
> > > I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting.
> >
> > oh shit
> >
> > it will be like the Cleggasm, theyll all stay drinking to 10.15 then turn up at the polling station and whinge that theyve been deprived of their democratic rights.
>
> haha! I'm in my 30s and will be out drinking away from my polling station tonight until after 10pm but thankfully voted this morning! Really no excuse to let the weather stop you voting unless its Hurricane Katrina.
I'm still getting report that turnout will be less than 40% in London
In other news Monaco tacky as ever...
> If the BP can’t get at least 35% then they’ll be disappointed .
>
> They have a lot of things in their favour , more motivated voters and also a gender disparity .
>
> More men are expected to vote than women and they lean more anti EU as a demographic .
Don't get me started about old white men again.
> @isam said:
>
> Just voted and there were 21 (Twenty one) candidates to choose from!
>
>
>
> Between The Brexit Party and UKIP were The UK EU Party, who I almost voted for by mistake. I also nearly voted UKIP by mistake too, I reckon a lot of people will be confused by it all
>
>
>
> ++++++++
>
>
>
> I think UKIP will slightly outperform expectations on the basis that some people will still see them as Farage's lot.
>
>
>
> I wouldn't be surprised to see them get 5% or even a smidgen more, keeping BXP to 30-31%.
>
> Yeah easy mistake to make. Especially as they are next to each other on some ballots.
>
> I am intrigued to know the turnout, will that be revealed tonight do you think?
Verifying tonight so the totals will be known. The invite to the verification says nothing about keeping the total votes cast secret.
Mr. Roger, unworthy of you.
On Monaco: is that a general observation or has a particular thing happened?
> I see things similarly to you, but the way I would put it is that Brexit is the opening up of two previously relatively unimportant dimensions. The existing dimensions (Left/Right, Liberal/Authoritarian) have been augmented with International/National, Metropolitan/Traditional.
> Those dimensions were always there, but they have become wedged open.
Additional, and paging @Theuniondivvie, this is why people can't get their heads around the idea that Scottish independence/SNP are different from Brexit/Faragism. On the International/National axis, there's a strong resemblance. But the differences in other dimensions are extremely stark. Scottish nationalism is (these days at least) highly metropolitan. That's why there's a huge difference between the SNP's call for EU citizens to make Scotland their home etc. This is despite -- maybe even because -- EU citizens rejected Scottish independence five years ago. Brexit is very Traditionalist in character, which is why it's gone down like a bucket of cold sick in London, Oxford etc.
There are also differences in the other dimensions. Not worth yabbering too much on about those as I think the point is well and truly made now.
> Is it true Mrs May refuses to resign because she wants to to stay on until Trump's visit where she can be sure to have her bottom squeezed?
>
> In other news Monaco tacky as ever...
Unnecessary comment
> Mr. 67, BP need to win. That's their only target here. Adding an artificial ceiling doesn't matter. If they come second on 35% (unlikely but possible) that's far worse than topping the poll with 31%.
>
> Mr. Roger, unworthy of you.
>
> On Monaco: is that a general observation or has a particular thing happened?
I think it might have been some sort of (un)humblebrag ?
I see Verstappen had to stop for a leak, but he ought to be comfortably ahead of the Ferraris on Saturday.
Generally different demographic groups tend to vote at different times . In the 2017 GE the exit polls showed a good lead for the Tories until later data came in.
Polling lighter than locals, with significant lulls during the day, but evening voters trickling in. I was the only one in the station at 1720. Voted for my party, though tempted by Greens.
> > @algarkirk said:
> > [deleted]
> I see things similarly to you, but the way I would put it is that Brexit is the opening up of two previously relatively unimportant dimensions. The existing dimensions (Left/Right, Liberal/Authoritarian) have been augmented with International/National, Metropolitan/Traditional.
> Those dimensions were always there, but they have become wedged open.
>
> There is a lot of cognitive dissonance at the moment that people find hard to handle because they find themselves on the same side of new fissures as people they previously opposed. So I find myself listening with admiration to people like Anna Soubry, only to shake myself when I realise what's happening. I've not become a conservative, and she's certainly not stopped being one, but we're now on the same side of _something_, and that something is really important to both of us.
>
> Farage and Galloway is a particularly comic example of this. The definition of the odd couple, in some ways.
>
> Brexit, however it gets resolved, has created a fracture in a dimension we're not used to thinking about. And it's far from clear who's who. There's a lot of populism about right now because nobody's exactly sure who the elites are and what they're doing. Easy to think that the frightening developments are the work of some shadowy other that is thwarting you. The reality is, authority has been weakened, not exposed.
>
> Today I voted for a Remain party that's reasonably far to the left. I nearly voted for a remain party that's pretty centrist. It was the environment that split the difference. So I was delving into an Internationalist pool, and splitting the difference on the Metropolitan axis. The Left/Right and Authoritarian/Liberal side didn't come into it much. But it could have done. If one of them was a bit homophobic, I would have avoided them. If one of them was economically very liberal, I would have been pinching my nose at best to vote for them.
> Those considerations will come back into play in different elections. Left/Right isn't dead. But it's not the only game in town any more.
___________________
Electoral Calculus has looked at this and called it the seven political tribes. It's another reason we need PR.
I think Farage and Galloway may be the 21st.C version of Michael Foot and Enoch Powell. They were resp. on the Labour left and the Tory right but agreed on very many things.
> Mr. 67, BP need to win. That's their only target here. Adding an artificial ceiling doesn't matter. If they come second on 35% (unlikely but possible) that's far worse than topping the poll with 31%.
>
> Mr. Roger, unworthy of you.
>
> On Monaco: is that a general observation or has a particular thing happened?
It was grey and overcast and struck me as particularly tacky. It's never really struk me before because in the sunshine it usually looks quite glitzy. I believe Hamilton is destined to win particularly as the weather isn't good at the moment.
> I haven't come across any of these hypothetical centrist Leavers mooted upthread. By and large they're either disaffected outsiders who want to tear down the system or reactionaries who viscerally dislike the messy compromises of modern life.
Isn't @stodge a Leave voting LD, but then we do have some rare birds on PB.
To get less than 30% we are looking at combustion of factors to get there I think.
40% plus is a simple story, less than 30 is a complex tale.
> I haven't come across any of these hypothetical centrist Leavers mooted upthread. By and large they're either disaffected outsiders who want to tear down the system or reactionaries who viscerally dislike the messy compromises of modern life.
Smithson Jnr. ?
Apart from my Leclerc bet, I'm not against a Hamilton win (I have a bet on him exceeding Schumacher's record, which is pretty likely to happen sometime next year).
> > @Brom said:
> > > @AndyJS said:
> > > A high turnout in London would probably depress the Brexit Party's overall percentage and the weather in the capital has been 25 degrees and sunny. That's one of the reasons I think betting on the Brexit Party getting 25-30% is good value.
> >
> > I'm not so surely nice weather leads to a higher turnout in London, certainly with younger left leaning voters who use public transport many will be outside drinking this evening and might not bother voting.
>
> oh shit
>
> it will be like the Cleggasm, theyll all stay drinking to 10.15 then turn up at the polling station and whinge that theyve been deprived of their democratic rights.
I'm getting flashbacks to the 2017 GE. Shame there's no exit poll for pbers to hysterically declare the worse ever after 0.1% of the actual results have been declared
> Mr. B, depends if the rain happens or not.
I think he'll be in front of the Ferraris either way.
* looks for tin foil *
> Anecdotes about turnout are almost always wrong, but interesting nonetheless when we don't have anything else to talk about.
Yep. We spent Local Election Day talking about deserted polling stations, lists with no-one crossed off and conversations with polling clerks about derisory turnouts, then found that national turnout was pretty normal for a local election.
> I haven't come across any of these hypothetical centrist Leavers mooted upthread. By and large they're either disaffected outsiders who want to tear down the system or reactionaries who viscerally dislike the messy compromises of modern life.
A posting that says a great deal about you (and none of it good) and nothing about leave voters.
> > @ah009 said:
> > > @AndyJS said:
> > > > @Andrew said:
> > > > Just to add the perhaps pointless turnout anecdata: central Edinburgh around 3.30pm, not at all busy, only saw 1 person going in/out.
> > >
> > > A low turnout in Scotland was one of the reasons the 2016 referendum wasn't a lot closer.
> >
> > The referendum came very shortly after the Holyrood elections, a year after a Westminster election, which was less than a year after the indyref. It was a busy time for elections in Scotland.
>
> The low turnout is conveniently ignored in Scotland. It might have voted to remain, but given the turnout was higher elsewhere you could argue that the more emphatic decisions were taken elsewhere in the UK.
It was 67% compared to 72% in the UK, hardly an earth shattering difference. Since the 'more emphatic' vote to stay in the EU has been ignored in Scotland in any case, I'm not sure how you'd want the low turnout to be acknowledged.
> Is it true Mrs May refuses to resign because she wants to to stay on until Trump's visit where she can be sure to have her bottom squeezed?
>
I can believe nobody else want to be PM until he's been and gone....
> Electoral Calculus has looked at this and called it the seven political tribes. It's another reason we need PR.
Aye, I've seen this. In some ways, I don't think it quite captures everything, but that seven tribes thing is a huge step forward in our understand, especially in our understanding of our misunderstandings.
Finally saw a Labour canvasser. Cheerfully directed him to my recycling bin and told him what Corbyn could do.
Wonderfully sunny.
A bit dull that we have to wait until Sunday for the results. Still, if we get a PM resigning that should fill the hours.......
> How long before the first conspiracy theory about what is happening to the ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday?
>
> Now you got me thinking, just what is happening to those ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday?
They are thoroughly checked before being counted.
> How long before the first conspiracy theory about what is happening to the ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday?
The conspiracy theories will start after 10 on Sunday night when we start getting some ideas about how the voting went. If party x has not done as well as expected then you're going to hear a lot of it
> How long before the first conspiracy theory about what is happening to the ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday?
>
> Now you got me thinking, just what is happening to those ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday?
Chris Grayling is in charge of them being transported to a secure location !
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > I haven't come across any of these hypothetical centrist Leavers mooted upthread. By and large they're either disaffected outsiders who want to tear down the system or reactionaries who viscerally dislike the messy compromises of modern life.
>
> A posting that says a great deal about you (and none of it good) and nothing about leave voters.
>
Why waste your time engaging with him?
> Anecdotes about turnout are almost always wrong, but interesting nonetheless when we don't have anything else to talk about.
At ours the tellers said they'd been surprised how busy it had been - steady stream through the day. Our eventual tally including the in-laws reported votes:
+4 Yellow Peril
-2 Tory
-2 Labour
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > How long before the first conspiracy theory about what is happening to the ballot boxes between Thursday and Sunday?
>
> The conspiracy theories will start after 10 on Sunday night when we start getting some ideas about how the voting went. If party x has not done as well as expected then you're going to hear a lot of it
That should rule tory and ChuK supporters out then :-)
> > @Roger said:
> > Is it true Mrs May refuses to resign because she wants to to stay on until Trump's visit where she can be sure to have her bottom squeezed?
> >
>
> I can believe nobody else want to be PM until he's been and gone....
>
Well apart from Boris-(squeezed bottom if necessary)
Quite a day in Kingston by all accounts - I was due a meeting there this afternoon which was cancelled at very short notice as County Hall was being evacuated.
Perhaps I was naïve to assume the Conservative Party, which struggles with the organisation of an alcoholic function in a brewery, would make anything more than a thorough dog's dinner of the job. We have wasted an opportunity to re-shape our country to fit the demands of the 21st Century but I shouldn't be surprised.
And the chippy's next door so that's tea sorted.
> > @AndyJS said:
> > Anecdotes about turnout are almost always wrong, but interesting nonetheless when we don't have anything else to talk about.
>
> At ours the tellers said they'd been surprised how busy it had been - steady stream through the day. Our eventual tally including the in-laws reported votes:
>
> +4 Yellow Peril
> -2 Tory
> -2 Labour
Great news , thanks for voting for the Lib Dems . As a Labour Remainer good to see others determined to send out a message to the Corbyn cabal. May I ask where are you located ?