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2014 Euros polling – Wikipedia
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Some people have persuaded to do some spread betting on the Euros that the Brexit Party will do better than expected.
> I live in Hope that YouGov will do an MRP poll for the Euros.
>
> Some people have persuaded to do some spread betting on the Euros.
> I live in Hope that YouGov will do an MRP poll for the Euros.
>
> Some people have persuaded to do some spread betting on the Euros.
I saw someone on Twitter reference an MRP study coming out tomorrow, I think, but not necessarily YouGov. Searched but couldn't find any details.
The world is a little more wondrous this evening than the one I awoke in.
> > @viewcode said:
>
> > Anybody still waiting to see GoT final episode at 9.00 pm?
>
> >
>
> > Given it is 8.22, everyone is still waiting to see it.
>
> >
>
> > Not TSE, who saw it early this morning in a vain attempt to treat his insomnia.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Still, look at the bright side. All those who wondered how they were going to resolve seven years' of plot in six episodes now have their answer. "Badly".
>
>
>
> No spoilers, but I am very very unhappy with this Season, and the way that it ended.
>
> I'm always astonished so many are so keen on this tripe. I stopped watching it when that woman laid a dragon.
>
> Nice to find something I wholeheartedly agree with you on @Luckyguy1983
>
> I tried watching one episode and quickly realised why our neighbours thought the unsung words to the theme tune were "Death and bonking, death and bonking..." etc. ad nauseam.
>
> Total tripe imho.
----------------
Each to their own, but of course if you boil it down to the most simplistic elements in derogatory fashion it sounds like tripe. I always thought Mad Men was nothing but arseholes in the 60s staring at each other a lot, but I doubt its fans would consider that a fair summary.
Will they deliver Brexit? And how?
What difference will the rise of the Brexit Party make?
> > @kle4 said:
> > > @Sean_F said:
> > > > @viewcode said:
> > > > Anybody still waiting to see GoT final episode at 9.00 pm?
> > > >
> > > > Given it is 8.22, everyone is still waiting to see it.
> > > >
> > > > Not TSE, who saw it early this morning in a vain attempt to treat his insomnia.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Still, look at the bright side. All those who wondered how they were going to resolve seven years' of plot in six episodes now have their answer. "Badly".
> > >
> > > No spoilers, but I am very very unhappy with this Season, and the way that it ended.
> >
> > I think it had it's problems as a season, I've not liked a lot of it, but I very much liked the way it ended personally. Not everything about how it did it, but the general tone of it, the broad strokes, I felt were very much in keeping with the series and well done.
>
> IMHO, despite some stunning action sequences, and outstanding acting, the overall plot and character arcs were appalling. "It came out of fucking nowhere" is how one of the leading actresses described her character arc.
And on that I'd have to disagree with them. The last 2 seasons in my opinion felt rushed, I don't know why they cut them down to 7 and 6 episodes, because for the most part I bought where most people ended up (particularly in the case of one) and thought there was ample suggestion for it previously, but it needed more time.
It put me in mind of S4 of Babylon 5, which rapped up a years long plot far too quickly because they thought they were getting cancelled. GoT could have had as many episodes as it wanted, it could have taken a bit more time to get to the places it went.
After watching one episode, without realising I started humming and singing at work
'I am the god of tits and wine! I shall build a shrine to myself at the next brothel I visit!'
*Not sacked but an eyebrow or two were raised in my general direction.
> Interesting that last time the pollsters overestimated UKIP, Labour and the LDs on average but underestimated the Tories
Well. It would be quite a feat if they overestimated the Tories this time round.
But I am trying to think of any result which would, because of how it is interpreted, could make things better, and I cannot think of one.
But I must be up early in the morning, so I will shortly to bed. Adieu.
> I have a confession about Game of Thrones, it nearly got me sacked* from my last job.
>
> After watching one episode, without realising I started humming and singing at work
>
> 'I am the god of tits and wine! I shall build a shrine to myself at the next brothel I visit!'
>
> *Not sacked but an eyebrow or two were raised in my general direction.
Who would dare sack, or even censure, the deputy editor of a reknowned political blog followed on twitter by senior people of the land? The fools.
> I see Phil Hammond has been on manoeuvres - has he got a bet on Con % less than 5 ?
He's bet the entire treasury on it - it'll be a master stroke.
> I have a confession about Game of Thrones, it nearly got me sacked* from my last job.
>
> After watching one episode, without realising I started humming and singing at work
>
> 'I am the god of tits and wine! I shall build a shrine to myself at the next brothel I visit!'
>
> *Not sacked but an eyebrow or two were raised in my general direction.
The eyebrows were raised that you hadn't already built it.....
> Here’s a question: which regions will the Conservatives hold up best in, proportionately? If their remaining voters are Remaining voters, does that imply the south east, the south west and the north west?
Northern Ireland
> Today I learned about bacon in milkshakes, and that Rod Stewart has spent the last 23 years of his spare time constructing model railways.
> The world is a little more wondrous this evening than the one I awoke in.
I remember once reading the Wikipedia page for food trends and discovering a trend in 'bacon-infused dishes' had entirely passed me by...
Also Denly out.
But Archer and Dawson in.
Archer's selection is going to upset Aggers.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/may/20/england-bowler-jofra-archer-world-cup-squad
As I see it: Brexit Party - 31%, Lab - 20%, Libs - 14%, Greens - 12%, Tories - 11%. Other incl. UKIP, Change, PC, SNP - 12% ish.
Here's hoping that Brexiteers more likely to turn out and their figure rises. That might happen, but not easy to work out.
At a push, Brexit party higher, Lab lower, Libs higher.
> Here’s a question: which regions will the Conservatives hold up best in, proportionately? If their remaining voters are Remaining voters, does that imply the south east, the south west and the north west?
The South East and East according to the polling
> Willey out!
>
> Also Denly out.
>
> But Archer and Dawson in.
>
> Archer's selection is going to upset Aggers.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/may/20/england-bowler-jofra-archer-world-cup-squad
Will Jonathon Liew be gutted there aren’t any transgenders in the squad ?
Kinnock spewing bile which is fun.
> > @Sean_F said:
> > > @kle4 said:
> > > > @Sean_F said:
> > > > > @viewcode said:
> > > > > Anybody still waiting to see GoT final episode at 9.00 pm?
> > > > >
> > > > > Given it is 8.22, everyone is still waiting to see it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not TSE, who saw it early this morning in a vain attempt to treat his insomnia.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Still, look at the bright side. All those who wondered how they were going to resolve seven years' of plot in six episodes now have their answer. "Badly".
> > > >
> > > > No spoilers, but I am very very unhappy with this Season, and the way that it ended.
> > >
> > > I think it had it's problems as a season, I've not liked a lot of it, but I very much liked the way it ended personally. Not everything about how it did it, but the general tone of it, the broad strokes, I felt were very much in keeping with the series and well done.
> >
> > IMHO, despite some stunning action sequences, and outstanding acting, the overall plot and character arcs were appalling. "It came out of fucking nowhere" is how one of the leading actresses described her character arc.
>
> And on that I'd have to disagree with them. The last 2 seasons in my opinion felt rushed, I don't know why they cut them down to 7 and 6 episodes, because for the most part I bought where most people ended up (particularly in the case of one) and thought there was ample suggestion for it previously, but it needed more time.
>
> It put me in mind of S4 of Babylon 5, which rapped up a years long plot far too quickly because they thought they were getting cancelled. GoT could have had as many episodes as it wanted, it could have taken a bit more time to get to the places it went.
The show runners had become bored with the project.
I'm on board with the idea of an idealistic young ruler gradually becoming a tyrant. But, I think it should take more than three episodes to become Fraulein Hitler.
> Good docu on Fatcha on Beeb 2 .
>
> Kinnock spewing bile which is fun.
Yes very good heavyweight documentary.
Heseltine also revealed he voted for Whitelaw to succeed Heath not Thatcher
> Here’s a question: which regions will the Conservatives hold up best in, proportionately? If their remaining voters are Remaining voters, does that imply the south east, the south west and the north west?
Scotland. Beyond any doubt. Because of Ruth and the bigger picture against the SNP.
> Good docu on Fatcha on Beeb 2 .
>
> Kinnock spewing bile which is fun.
The Anti-Christ had that effect on so many people.
> > @TGOHF said:
> > Good docu on Fatcha on Beeb 2 .
> >
> > Kinnock spewing bile which is fun.
>
> The Anti-Christ had that effect on so many people.
You mean Britain’s best PM since Churchill ?
Kinnock not fit to clean her boots.
> > @TGOHF said:
> > Good docu on Fatcha on Beeb 2 .
> >
> > Kinnock spewing bile which is fun.
>
> The Anti-Christ had that effect on so many people.
The left, so twisted by hate.
> > @kle4 said:
> > > @Sean_F said:
> > > > @kle4 said:
> > > > > @Sean_F said:
> > > > > > @viewcode said:
> > > > > > Anybody still waiting to see GoT final episode at 9.00 pm?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Given it is 8.22, everyone is still waiting to see it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not TSE, who saw it early this morning in a vain attempt to treat his insomnia.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Still, look at the bright side. All those who wondered how they were going to resolve seven years' of plot in six episodes now have their answer. "Badly".
> > > > >
> > > > > No spoilers, but I am very very unhappy with this Season, and the way that it ended.
> > > >
> > > > I think it had it's problems as a season, I've not liked a lot of it, but I very much liked the way it ended personally. Not everything about how it did it, but the general tone of it, the broad strokes, I felt were very much in keeping with the series and well done.
> > >
> > > IMHO, despite some stunning action sequences, and outstanding acting, the overall plot and character arcs were appalling. "It came out of fucking nowhere" is how one of the leading actresses described her character arc.
> >
> > And on that I'd have to disagree with them. The last 2 seasons in my opinion felt rushed, I don't know why they cut them down to 7 and 6 episodes, because for the most part I bought where most people ended up (particularly in the case of one) and thought there was ample suggestion for it previously, but it needed more time.
> >
> > It put me in mind of S4 of Babylon 5, which rapped up a years long plot far too quickly because they thought they were getting cancelled. GoT could have had as many episodes as it wanted, it could have taken a bit more time to get to the places it went.
>
> The show runners had become bored with the project.
>
> I'm on board with the idea of an idealistic young ruler gradually becoming a tyrant. But, I think it should take more than three episodes to become Fraulein Hitler.
---------------
Season 5
"One day your great city will return to the dirt as well"
"At your command?"
"If need be"
"And how many people will die to make this happen?"
"If it comes to that they will have died for a good reason"
"Those men think they are dying for a good reason"
"Someone else's reason"
"So your reasons are true and theirs are false? They don't know their own minds, but you do?"
Yes it should have taken longer, but the seeds were there a long time ago. Fanatacism and belief in destiny disregarding the cost, a slippery slope.
> Willey out!
>
> Also Denly out.
>
> But Archer and Dawson in.
>
> Archer's selection is going to upset Aggers.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/may/20/england-bowler-jofra-archer-world-cup-squad
I would drop Plunkett. Not a massive fan of Wiley (too slow), but he is the only left arm seamer we have. With Plunkett, Woakes, Curran, Stokes, that is basically 4 identical bowlers.
If Dawson is in such good form, which the hell didn't they call him up for the last two ODIs and see what he had?
https://twitter.com/tjfrancislive/status/1130401530727817217?s=21
"> @Byronic said:
> > @FrancisUrquhart said:
> > Talking of harassment....
> >
> > A head teacher at a primary school giving lessons on LGBT equality has received threatening emails and phone calls....
> >
> > Shakeel Afsar is the leader of the Anderton Park protests, although he has no children at the school. He said 600 pupils were kept from school on Monday "to make it crystal clear we will not have our children indoctrinated or participating in any social engineering programmes which undermine our family values by promoting child sexualisation".
> >
> > https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-48339080<;
>
> ++++++
>
> The situation is actually a lot worse than the BBC report implies.
@Amina_Lone
@WMPolice This is getting out of hand. Why isn't anyone doing anything? @birmingham_live @birminghampost peaceful group putting up posters and get egged and abused by anti-gay protesters
Why isn't anyone doing anything?"
MY RESPONSE
Well that's easy enough to answer.
- Our Education Secretary and Equalities Minister (do we even have one anymore?) have said diddly squat.
- The teachers and the schools have been left unsupported.
- Those in charge have been afraid of bullies because these particular bullies are Muslim (now joined by some of the dimmer Christian sects and Orthodox Jews) and taking on Muslim bullies is fraught with danger: accusations of Islamophobia at best and quite a lot worse at worst.
- Those in charge talk about values but do not understand them or fight for them or protect them.
- They think (wrongly) that they are obliged to respect that which is not worthy of respect.
- They tell themselves one of the biggest lies around: that we are all basically the same and believe the same things, when this is not so. You are either for LGBQT rights or not; you either believe that they are equal or you do not and you cannot just wish those differences away by wittering about "tolerance" and "diversity" and all the other banal Kumbaya nonsense that passes for too much public debate on difficult topics these days.
- They are frightened into thinking that criticising Islam is Islamophobic and must not be done.
- They do not fundamentally care about the children who are being deprived of education and help and advice. These are Muslim children you see and somehow not worthy of being taught the same as all British children and being expected to abide by the standards of everyone else. The racism of low expectations.
Oh, Christ! It is all too depressing. This is what makes me genuinely angry, not rubbish about milkshakes and men telling women what to do with their breasts. I could go on. I have done. See here. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/03/21/rendering-unto-caesar/
> > @justin124 said:
> > > @TGOHF said:
> > > Good docu on Fatcha on Beeb 2 .
> > >
> > > Kinnock spewing bile which is fun.
> >
> > The Anti-Christ had that effect on so many people.
>
> The left, so twisted by hate.
Oh to have a PM with such strength of conviction now.
After Britain's woeful performance at Eurovision, Farage has teamed up with Finnish rockers Lordi for next year's entry. Their song?
Hard Brexit Hallelujah!
(I thank you!)
>Turnout is impossible to predict.
I like how you immediately followed that with a prediction
> > @TheScreamingEagles said:
> > Willey out!
> >
> > Also Denly out.
> >
> > But Archer and Dawson in.
> >
> > Archer's selection is going to upset Aggers.
> >
> > https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/may/20/england-bowler-jofra-archer-world-cup-squad
>
> Will Jonathon Liew be gutted there aren’t any transgenders in the squad ?
Archer is a no brainer. Denly did not seize his chance. I find the reversion to Vince surprising. A beautifully crafted 30 and out still seems to be his mode of operation.
> > @justin124 said:
> > > @TGOHF said:
> > > Good docu on Fatcha on Beeb 2 .
> > >
> > > Kinnock spewing bile which is fun.
> >
> > The Anti-Christ had that effect on so many people.
>
> You mean Britain’s best PM since Churchill ?
>
> Kinnock not fit to clean her boots.
No - she was evil.
> Over a quarter of foiled terrorist attacks in the UK are by the far right...
>
> https://twitter.com/tjfrancislive/status/1130401530727817217
And the remaining three quarters islamists.
Which means 0 by the ra !
>
> Oh to have a PM with such strength of conviction now.
--------
Just as Thatcher pushed to complete the internal market, one of the original aims of the European Community, we need a leader with equal strength of conviction to bring the public with them as we reverse Brexit and join the Euro.
> > @Benpointer said:
> > > @viewcode said:
> >
> > > Anybody still waiting to see GoT final episode at 9.00 pm?
> > > Given it is 8.22, everyone is still waiting to see it.
> > > Not TSE, who saw it early this morning in a vain attempt to treat his insomnia.
Still, look at the bright side. All those who wondered how they were going to resolve seven years' of plot in six episodes now have their answer. "Badly".
> > No spoilers, but I am very very unhappy with this Season, and the way that it ended.
> >
> > I'm always astonished so many are so keen on this tripe. I stopped watching it when that woman laid a dragon.
> >
> > Nice to find something I wholeheartedly agree with you on @Luckyguy1983
> >
> > I tried watching one episode and quickly realised why our neighbours thought the unsung words to the theme tune were "Death and bonking, death and bonking..." etc. ad nauseam.
> >
> > Total tripe imho.
>
> ----------------
> Each to their own, but of course if you boil it down to the most simplistic elements in derogatory fashion it sounds like tripe. I always thought Mad Men was nothing but arseholes in the 60s staring at each other a lot, but I doubt its fans would consider that a fair summary.
I will probably be derided for this but the three series I have enjoyed the most in recent months have been (1) The Durrells - gentle Mediterranean escapism; (2) Berlin Station; and (3) Fleabag.
Mum is also good. And ITV's Vanity Fair was also good.
This evening I watched Denial - about the Penguin/Lipstadt - David Irving libel trial. Jolly good performances all round and unlike most legal dramas does not make me cringe.
> > @Sean_F said:
> > > @kle4 said:
> > > > @Sean_F said:
> > > > > @kle4 said:
> > > > > > @Sean_F said:
> > > > > > > @viewcode said:
> > > > > > > Anybody still waiting to see GoT final episode at 9.00 pm?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Given it is 8.22, everyone is still waiting to see it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not TSE, who saw it early this morning in a vain attempt to treat his insomnia.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Still, look at the bright side. All those who wondered how they were going to resolve seven years' of plot in six episodes now have their answer. "Badly".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No spoilers, but I am very very unhappy with this Season, and the way that it ended.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think it had it's problems as a season, I've not liked a lot of it, but I very much liked the way it ended personally. Not everything about how it did it, but the general tone of it, the broad strokes, I felt were very much in keeping with the series and well done.
> > > >
> > > > IMHO, despite some stunning action sequences, and outstanding acting, the overall plot and character arcs were appalling. "It came out of fucking nowhere" is how one of the leading actresses described her character arc.
> > >
> > > And.
> > >
> > > It put me in mind of S4 of Babylon 5, which rapped up a years long plot far too quickly because they thought they were getting cancelled. GoT could have had as many episodes as it wanted, it could have taken a bit more time to get to the places it went.
> >
> > The show runners had become bored with the project.
> >
> > I'm on board with the idea of an idealistic young ruler gradually becoming a tyrant. But, I think it should take more than three episodes to become Fraulein Hitler.
> ---------------
> Season 5
>
> "One day your great city will return to the dirt as well"
> "At your command?"
> "If need be"
> "And how many people will die to make this happen?"
> "If it comes to that they will have died for a good reason"
> "Those men think they are dying for a good reason"
> "Someone else's reason"
> "So your reasons are true and theirs are false? They don't know their own minds, but you do?"
>
> Yes it should have taken longer, but the seeds were there a long time ago. Fanatacism and belief in destiny disregarding the cost, a slippery slope.
In many ways, they're a typical revolutionary leader. They hate injustice, want to make the world a better place, and are personally brave, as well as being an arrogant, cruel, control-freak. But, it's still a very fast jump from being one of the saviours of the world to being Pol Pot a couple of episodes further on.
> > @isam said:
> > Over a quarter of foiled terrorist attacks in the UK are by the far right...
> >
> > https://twitter.com/tjfrancislive/status/1130401530727817217
>
> And the remaining three quarters islamists.
>
> Which means 0 by the ra !
And they have yet to break into the WI at all. Now there's an organisation that can keep a secret.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1130537915799527424
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1130569213373014016
> Questions reposted from previous thread. This week's euros are a disaster for the Conservatives. Brexit Party triumphant. May goes at last. New Tory leader elected to deliver Brexit and move on from the awful mess.
>
>
>
> Will they deliver Brexit? And how?
>
>
>
> What difference will the rise of the Brexit Party make?
>
> Nigel's triumph will absolutely terrify the Tories into No Deal. They will see any further dalliance with the EU as being utterly toxic, and the leadership campaign will be a veritable Mr Universe parade for Hard Brexit. Of course, the economic fallout over No Deal will probably destroy them, and the Brexit Party will take their place, but the madness now seems unstoppable to me.
But that doesn't explain how they will get it through HofC? Without a GE of course. Which they will need to win a majority in.
Oops. Ben made the very same point.
Today’s version of ‘If they poll well it puts the pressure on to meet expectations, and if they poll badly it’s deeply troubling for them”
https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1130504492556988416?s=21
I see lord Hessletine has lost the Tory whip.
He didn't seem at all concerned or distressed while wandering around Chelsea flower show early this evening.
> @kle4, I remember season 4 of Bab 5 (where they thought they were being cancelled and squeezed two seasons into one). It was squeezed but it was logical and all the character development was plausible. I didn't get that impression from GoT...
Some was some not. People are focusing overmuch on the not, and also thinking some was not which was, in my opinion. Rushed is different to implausible after all, and could still be logical.
"My friends, it's nine years since I spoke at a Conservative Party Conference. A lot has happened since then - and not much of it for the better......
Today I break my self-denying ordinance. And for a very good reason - to express my outrage at the callous and unjust treatment of Senator Pinochet.
But first I want to extend a personal welcome to our Chilean guests, who have come half way round the world to be with us. They should understand the deep sense of shame and anger we feel at the way in which Chile - its honour, its dignity, its sovereignty and its former ruler - have been treated.
I do not know when or how this tragedy will end. But we will fight on for as long as it takes to see Senator Pinochet returned safely to his own country. Chileans can rest assured that, however contemptibly this Labour Government behaves, the British people still believe in loyalty to their friends."
Evil is an overused word, but Thatcher was defending a fascist. And she was old enough to remember first hand what fascism did to people.
That, to me, is a baffling state of affairs unless you bring in the concept that she did not give the slightest stuff about Pinochet murdering innocent civilians. And if that's a measure of evil, Thatcher qualifies. You can decide for yourselves; I know what I think.
But who are we to cloud Stark's visions of fantasy with tedious practicalities?
> > @Floater said:
> > > @justin124 said:
> > > > @TGOHF said:
> > > > Good docu on Fatcha on Beeb 2 .
> > > >
> > > > Kinnock spewing bile which is fun.
> > >
> > > The Anti-Christ had that effect on so many people.
> >
> > The left, so twisted by hate.
>
> Oh to have a PM with such strength of conviction now.
Mrs Thatcher certainly had strength of conviction but her strong conviction did a complete U-turn on Europe, so that does sound a bit like Theresa May.
> But that doesn't explain how they will get it through HofC? Without a GE of course. Which they will need to win a majority in.
> Oops. Ben made the very same point.
Who is going to stop it once they have seen Thursday's results?
> > @viewcode said:
> > @kle4, I remember season 4 of Bab 5 (where they thought they were being cancelled and squeezed two seasons into one). It was squeezed but it was logical and all the character development was plausible. I didn't get that impression from GoT...
>
> Some was some not. People are focusing overmuch on the not, and also thinking some was not which was, in my opinion. Rushed is different to implausible after all, and could still be logical.
The series cheated. Most of the time it glorified cruelty. For six and a half seasons, burning people alive, feeding them to hounds, feeding them their own children in a pie, hanging a 12 year old whose parents have been cannibalised, gouging out eyes etc. , and threatening to burn down cities, have been portrayed as badass. Then suddenly, it all changes in the middle of Season 7, and this character's advisors start having qualms about this character's behaviour, and plotting to bring them down.
If the series wanted to focus on the pity and horror of war, it should have been consistent about it.
> Thatcher: A Very British Revolution on BBC2 now
More circumstantial evidence that it was CCHQ who leant on the BBC to pull HIGNFY.
> > @TGOHF said:
>
> > > @justin124 said:
>
> > > > @TGOHF said:
>
> > > > Good docu on Fatcha on Beeb 2 .
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Kinnock spewing bile which is fun.
>
> > >
>
> > > The Anti-Christ had that effect on so many people.
>
> >
>
> > You mean Britain’s best PM since Churchill ?
>
> >
>
> > Kinnock not fit to clean her boots.
>
>
>
> No - she was evil.
>
> Says the guy who wanted Corbyn to have a massive heart attack.
I 'wanted' no such thing.
> Farage either deserved it... or it was a false flag
>
> Today’s version of ‘If they poll well it puts the pressure on to meet expectations, and if they poll badly it’s deeply troubling for them”
>
> https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1130504492556988416
Remain have learned nothing and forgotten nothing since 2016, have they?
> Thatcher: 1999-10-06
> "My friends, it's nine years since I spoke at a Conservative Party Conference. A lot has happened since then - and not much of it for the better......
> Today I break my self-denying ordinance. And for a very good reason - to express my outrage at the callous and unjust treatment of Senator Pinochet.
>
> But first I want to extend a personal welcome to our Chilean guests, who have come half way round the world to be with us. They should understand the deep sense of shame and anger we feel at the way in which Chile - its honour, its dignity, its sovereignty and its former ruler - have been treated.
>
> I do not know when or how this tragedy will end. But we will fight on for as long as it takes to see Senator Pinochet returned safely to his own country. Chileans can rest assured that, however contemptibly this Labour Government behaves, the British people still believe in loyalty to their friends."
>
> Evil is an overused word, but Thatcher was defending a fascist. And she was old enough to remember first hand what fascism did to people.
> That, to me, is a baffling state of affairs unless you bring in the concept that she did not give the slightest stuff about Pinochet murdering innocent civilians. And if that's a measure of evil, Thatcher qualifies. You can decide for yourselves; I know what I think.
Yes - it was utterly disgraceful by her. She seemed also to forget that a British citizen (a nun) had been tortured by Pinochet's goons. And that the legal system should not be interfered with for political reasons. It was a real low point for the Tories when their former leader started defending a man as evil as Pinochet. Worth remembering when people go on about Corbyn and Venezuela etc. Beams and motes.
> That, to me, is a baffling state of affairs unless you bring in the concept that she did not give the slightest stuff about Pinochet murdering innocent civilians. And if that's a measure of evil, Thatcher qualifies. You can decide for yourselves; I know what I think.
I'm reminded of what Churchill said when asked about fighting on the same side as Stalin.
I might disagree with Thatcher about whether Allende was a greater evil that required standing behind Pinochet, but I can see how that sort of argument might lead one to support an evil, to defeat a perceived greater evil, without one being evil themselves. It's probably to her credit that she stuck to that position and was loyal to Pinochet later, rather than turning against him once his use was past.
It's the same sort of argument that many will use to justify their vote for Corbyn and his merry band of anti-semites. I wonder whether Labour Party members will continue to stand behind Corbyn when they no longer need him to fight the greater Tory evil?
> > @Stark_Dawning said:
> > Questions reposted from previous thread. This week's euros are a disaster for the Conservatives. Brexit Party triumphant. May goes at last. New Tory leader elected to deliver Brexit and move on from the awful mess.
> >
> >
> >
> > Will they deliver Brexit? And how?
> >
> >
> >
> > What difference will the rise of the Brexit Party make?
> >
> > Nigel's triumph will absolutely terrify the Tories into No Deal. They will see any further dalliance with the EU as being utterly toxic, and the leadership campaign will be a veritable Mr Universe parade for Hard Brexit. Of course, the economic fallout over No Deal will probably destroy them, and the Brexit Party will take their place, but the madness now seems unstoppable to me.
>
> But that doesn't explain how they will get it through HofC? Without a GE of course. Which they will need to win a majority in.
> Oops. Ben made the very same point.
They don't need to. It's the legal default. Unless we ask for and get an extension or we revoke or pass the WA by 31 October, on that day the Article 50 period comes to an end and we are out of the EU.
> > @kle4 said:
>
> > > @viewcode said:
>
> > > @kle4, I remember season 4 of Bab 5 (where they thought they were being cancelled and squeezed two seasons into one). It was squeezed but it was logical and all the character development was plausible. I didn't get that impression from GoT...
>
> >
>
> > Some was some not. People are focusing overmuch on the not, and also thinking some was not which was, in my opinion. Rushed is different to implausible after all, and could still be logical.
>
>
>
> The series cheated. Most of the time it glorified cruelty. For six and a half seasons, burning people alive, feeding them to hounds, feeding them their own children in a pie, hanging a 12 year old whose parents have been cannibalised, gouging out eyes etc. , and threatening to burn down cities, have been portrayed as badass. Then suddenly, it all changes in the middle of Season 7, and this character's advisors start having qualms about this character's behaviour, and plotting to bring them down.
>
>
>
> If the series wanted to focus on the pity and horror of war, it should have been consistent about it.
>
> It peaked at the end of season 6, season 7 was absolute tripe. This one was better than 7 I thought. I preferred Ep 5 to this last one though, must admit.
The climactic moment of Ep 5 sounds really good if you set it to Hells Bells by AC DC/
> > @dixiedean said:
> > But that doesn't explain how they will get it through HofC? Without a GE of course. Which they will need to win a majority in.
> > Oops. Ben made the very same point.
>
> Who is going to stop it once they have seen Thursday's results?
The same as before.
Yet you have the gall to call others evil.
> > @kle4 said:
> > > @viewcode said:
> > > @kle4, I remember season 4 of Bab 5 (where they thought they were being cancelled and squeezed two seasons into one). It was squeezed but it was logical and all the character development was plausible. I didn't get that impression from GoT...
> >
> > Some was some not. People are focusing overmuch on the not, and also thinking some was not which was, in my opinion. Rushed is different to implausible after all, and could still be logical.
>
> The series cheated. Most of the time it glorified cruelty. For six and a half seasons, burning people alive, feeding them to hounds, feeding them their own children in a pie, hanging a 12 year old whose parents have been cannibalised, gouging out eyes etc. , and threatening to burn down cities, have been portrayed as badass. Then suddenly, it all changes in the middle of Season 7, and this character's advisors start having qualms about this character's behaviour, and plotting to bring them down.
>
> If the series wanted to focus on the pity and horror of war, it should have been consistent about it.
The glorification of Tyrion whose utterly shite advice led to all the death and destruction wouldn't go well in future history books.
> > @ah009 said:
> > That, to me, is a baffling state of affairs unless you bring in the concept that she did not give the slightest stuff about Pinochet murdering innocent civilians. And if that's a measure of evil, Thatcher qualifies. You can decide for yourselves; I know what I think.
>
> I'm reminded of what Churchill said when asked about fighting on the same side as Stalin.
>
> I might disagree with Thatcher about whether Allende was a greater evil that required standing behind Pinochet, but I can see how that sort of argument might lead one to support an evil, to defeat a perceived greater evil, without one being evil themselves. It's probably to her credit that she stuck to that position and was loyal to Pinochet later, rather than turning against him once his use was past.
>
> It's the same sort of argument that many will use to justify their vote for Corbyn and his merry band of anti-semites. I wonder whether Labour Party members will continue to stand behind Corbyn when they no longer need him to fight the greater Tory evil?
There was no reason for Thatcher to say what she did. She could perfectly well have said that Chile had helped Britain during the Falklands War, that we were grateful for that help but that no one is above the law and that the legal process in Britain and Spain and Chile should be allowed to run its course without any interference from politicians.
That is what a decent thoughtful politician would have said not rushed to embrace Pinochet as if he were her best friend.
Another one for the ‘What if Farage had said it’ files
> It's probably to her credit that she stuck to that position and was loyal to Pinochet later, rather than turning against him once his use was past.
I have read that sentence several times, and I can't parse it in any way other than you're saying that Thatcher stayed friendly with Pinochet not for pragmatic reasons, but because he was the sort of person she wanted to be friendly with.
And that is something you would _credit_ her for?
I don't think you and I share much in the way of values and I feel I could become quite impolite if I have understood you correctly. So I'll just say that I disagree strongly with what I think you are saying.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > Thatcher: A Very British Revolution on BBC2 now
>
> More circumstantial evidence that it was CCHQ who leant on the BBC to pull HIGNFY.
But in fact Lib Dem’s have benefitted most by the absence of Change UK from our screens.
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > Here’s a question: which regions will the Conservatives hold up best in, proportionately? If their remaining voters are Remaining voters, does that imply the south east, the south west and the north west?
>
> Scotland. Beyond any doubt. Because of Ruth and the bigger picture against the SNP.
According to the latest polling the Tories are behind the Brexit Party in Scotland so not sure about that, if they win any MEPs at all it will be in the South East
YouGov also seem to show Labour losing more GE2017 voters to Remain parties and more Tories to the Brexit Party than the rest.
As to who's going to be right I have no idea. I can't see turnout being particularly high, which might favour the Brexit Party, LDs and Greens. YouGov got closest in the last EU elections, but their standard VI polls weren't very accurate for 2017 (though the constituency model was very close) and Survation ended up closest out of the conventional models.
> > @dixiedean said:
> > > @Stark_Dawning said:
> > > Questions reposted from previous thread. This week's euros are a disaster for the Conservatives. Brexit Party triumphant. May goes at last. New Tory leader elected to deliver Brexit and move on from the awful mess.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Will they deliver Brexit? And how?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What difference will the rise of the Brexit Party make?
> > >
> > > Nigel's triumph will absolutely terrify the Tories into No Deal. They will see any further dalliance with the EU as being utterly toxic, and the leadership campaign will be a veritable Mr Universe parade for Hard Brexit. Of course, the economic fallout over No Deal will probably destroy them, and the Brexit Party will take their place, but the madness now seems unstoppable to me.
> >
> > But that doesn't explain how they will get it through HofC? Without a GE of course. Which they will need to win a majority in.
> > Oops. Ben made the very same point.
>
>
> They don't need to. It's the legal default. Unless we ask for and get an extension or we revoke or pass the WA by 31 October, on that day the Article 50 period comes to an end and we are out of the EU.
Well, yes of course. But the idea that the Tory Party will unite around and plan for a No Deal outcome in the run up to that date is yet more fantasy. Any outright No Deal policy means loss of majority and probably the fall of this government.
There simply aren't the numbers for it.
> > @ah009 said:
> > Thatcher: 1999-10-06
> > "My friends, it's nine years since I spoke at a Conservative Party Conference. A lot has happened since then - and not much of it for the better......
> > Today I break my self-denying ordinance. And for a very good reason - to express my outrage at the callous and unjust treatment of Senator Pinochet.
> >
> > But first I want to extend a personal welcome to our Chilean guests, who have come half way round the world to be with us. They should understand the deep sense of shame and anger we feel at the way in which Chile - its honour, its dignity, its sovereignty and its former ruler - have been treated.
> >
> > I do not know when or how this tragedy will end. But we will fight on for as long as it takes to see Senator Pinochet returned safely to his own country. Chileans can rest assured that, however contemptibly this Labour Government behaves, the British people still believe in loyalty to their friends."
> >
> > Evil is an overused word, but Thatcher was defending a fascist. And she was old enough to remember first hand what fascism did to people.
> > That, to me, is a baffling state of affairs unless you bring in the concept that she did not give the slightest stuff about Pinochet murdering innocent civilians. And if that's a measure of evil, Thatcher qualifies. You can decide for yourselves; I know what I think.
>
> Yes - it was utterly disgraceful by her. She seemed also to forget that a British citizen (a nun) had been tortured by Pinochet's goons. And that the legal system should not be interfered with for political reasons. It was a real low point for the Tories when their former leader started defending a man as evil as Pinochet. Worth remembering when people go on about Corbyn and Venezuela etc. Beams and motes.
Pinochet played a crucial role in helping Britain in the Falklands War
> > @Sean_F said:
> > > @kle4 said:
> > > > @Sean_F said:
> > > > > @viewcode said:
> > > > > Anybody still waiting to see GoT final episode at 9.00 pm?
> > > > >
> > > > > Given it is 8.22, everyone is still waiting to see it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not TSE, who saw it early this morning in a vain attempt to treat his insomnia.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Still, look at the bright side. All those who wondered how they were going to resolve seven years' of plot in six episodes now have their answer. "Badly".
> > > >
> > > > No spoilers, but I am very very unhappy with this Season, and the way that it ended.
> > >
> > > I think it had it's problems as a season, I've not liked a lot of it, but I very much liked the way it ended personally. Not everything about how it did it, but the general tone of it, the broad strokes, I felt were very much in keeping with the series and well done.
> >
> > IMHO, despite some stunning action sequences, and outstanding acting, the overall plot and character arcs were appalling. "It came out of fucking nowhere" is how one of the leading actresses described her character arc.
>
> And on that I'd have to disagree with them. The last 2 seasons in my opinion felt rushed, I don't know why they cut them down to 7 and 6 episodes, because for the most part I bought where most people ended up (particularly in the case of one) and thought there was ample suggestion for it previously, but it needed more time.
>
> It put me in mind of S4 of Babylon 5, which rapped up a years long plot far too quickly because they thought they were getting cancelled. GoT could have had as many episodes as it wanted, it could have taken a bit more time to get to the places it went.
The reason is obvious.
They had run out of Martin's work.