> @IanB2 said: > > @geoffw said: > > RIP Brian Walden as well, a heavyweight in his own right and despite being a former Labour MP in his latter years a convinced Brexiteer > > > > Labour were always more Eurosceptic than the Tories back then. > > > > Partly because the most pro EEC figures like Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams defected to the SDP, the CUK of its day > > > > David Owen was/is Eurosceptic > > and also Peter Shore and Tony Benn inter alia. > > If he was in the 1980s, he kept quiet about it. Being pro-EU was a key driving force for the SDP split.
Owen was very pro-EU in the 1980s - as was Lawson. Only in recent years have they become Eurosceptics.
> @nico67 said: > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far. > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow . > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
> Brian Walden has died at 86. He supported Brexit - though had been an Anti- Marketeer even back in the 1960s.
He was great on Weekend World. Used to love that prog. When all the other kids were out playing in the woods I'd be inside glued to that, watching Walden interview some prominent politician for a full hour in tremendous depth. My pals would try and get me to come out but I would always refuse if WW was on. After a while they got the message and stopped coming round. Happy days. RIP Brian.
I have similar memories. WW was the first program to persuade me politics might not be utterly tedious (remember back then they used to televise the TUC conference... incomprehensibly dull to a kid)
BW had a wonderful interview technique which needs reviving. Instead of quick fire questions and looking for a one line attack he would take some cliché of an answer he had been given and seek to get the politician to expand and explain it further. By treating the clichés as if they actually meant something the interviewee would have the opportunity to say more than they intended, and by treating people as if they were serious he made progress in discussion. (The opposite of the often excellent Andrew Marr with Nigel Farage). I think Evan Davies is the nearest to him at the moment.
> @Recidivist said: > Staunch SLabber making no recommendations how people should vote in the Euros, oh no, definitely not. > > > > https://twitter.com/eilidhmax/status/1127613447536041986 > > > > Well if I were a Labour Party enforcer I'd be sling him out. Disloyalty is bad, but disloyalty combined with smirking is intolerable.
Can we also expel those Labour Party members who spent the majority of their adult lives supporting far-left fringe organisations that sought to bring down the Labour Party?
For some reason they now think they own the place, like a bunch of gangsters walking in to an East End boozer.
Another premier league season over.... Bit of a wobble on the last day but think I clung on for the big pb ff league prize..... Omen for 1st June....Everton fans all singing 'you're going to win the cup' today.... Can't think why....
> > > RIP Brian Walden as well, a heavyweight in his own right and despite being a former Labour MP in his latter years a convinced Brexiteer
> > >
> > > Labour were always more Eurosceptic than the Tories back then.
> > >
> > > Back when Labour actually cared about the working man and woman.
> >
> > In what way did they cease to care? I am not a Labour supporter but am interested in your reasons for them not caring.
>
> I guess the argument is that today's metropolitan, latte-sipping middle class Labour Party is obsessed with issues such as Israel-Palestine rather than what matters to working class men and women.
>
> How a policy of increasing the minimum wage for teenagers fits this argument I'm not sure.
Exactly! People just spout cliché after cliché with no objective argument to support it. What do people expect? Labour make everyone billionaires?
This time next year, Taxman, we'll be billionaires!
Can we also expel those Labour Party members who spent the majority of their adult lives supporting far-left fringe organisations that sought to bring down the Labour Party?
For some reason they now think they own the place, like a bunch of gangsters walking in to an East End boozer.
"Nice constitution you've got here. It would be shame if all got messed up, guvnor."
> @algarkirk said: > > @justin124 said: > > > Brian Walden has died at 86. He supported Brexit - though had been an Anti- Marketeer even back in the 1960s. > > > > He was great on Weekend World. Used to love that prog. When all the other kids were out playing in the woods I'd be inside glued to that, watching Walden interview some prominent politician for a full hour in tremendous depth. My pals would try and get me to come out but I would always refuse if WW was on. After a while they got the message and stopped coming round. Happy days. RIP Brian. > > I have similar memories. > WW was the first program to persuade me politics might not be utterly tedious (remember back then they used to televise the TUC conference... incomprehensibly dull to a kid) > > > > BW had a wonderful interview technique which needs reviving. Instead of quick fire questions and looking for a one line attack he would take some cliché of an answer he had been given and seek to get the politician to expand and explain it further. By treating the clichés as if they actually meant something > the interviewee would have the opportunity to say more than they intended, and by treating people as if they were serious he made progress in discussion. (The opposite of the often excellent Andrew Marr with Nigel Farage). I think Evan Davies is the nearest to him at the moment.
Though after a few years they sussed his technique, and he almost as often tied himself in knots as his interviewee.
> Well if I were a Labour Party enforcer I'd be sling him out. Disloyalty is bad, but disloyalty combined with smirking is intolerable.
I agree totally.
No shortage of nationalisms doing a bit of blighting. Which two did he have in mind? Irish? Scottish? Welsh? Our very own Tommy Robinson? EU nationhood ambitions? Let us into the secret.
I note @isam's tribute to Brian Walden's Weekend World theme. Walden also did some Prime Minister profiles for the BBC, which I shall post later. But before then, let me reintroduce you to British current affairs programming of the 70-90's....
* h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95qLDc7zwYY : World in Action * h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsf6zIxlOd8 : Weekend World (1985) * h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqxA3Inlzrw : Newsnight (1990) * h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc9v1vfBlHs : Tomorrow's World (1987) * h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WOBFwBBaZM : Tomorrow's World (1987) * h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERaF-h8UhvU : Tomorrow's World (1978)
And last but not least, David Lowe's 1999 BBC News theme, now in it's 20th year and still being remixed...
* h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g2lZgKugoY
...only slightly better than the Bill Bailey loving pastiche...
@viewcode I have a BBC cassette (bought by my dad) with the Tomorrow's World (1978) theme. Also includes Hong Kong Beat, Diamonds in the Sky, and Quiller.
> Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far.
>
> Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow .
>
> He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
That must be why the polling shows a Labour wipe out in Scotland.
Anecdotaly I've seen my first "fucking hates the SNP" type saying they will vote SNP to give Lab a bloody nose over their pro Brexit stance.
* Walden on the Labour Party and socialism: h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOlXrqFWBj0 * Walden on the Maastricht Rebellion: h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3heF-EuzlA * Walden on Edward Heath and Enoch Powell: h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktxzDWZsdrg * Walden on Margaret Thatcher and the 1980s : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMba2HjWaUY * Walden on Gaitskell : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK2DfWxymrg * Walden on Gandhi : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlsVM4gF1t4 * Walden on Callaghan: h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvc7H8hrAg8 * Walden on Churchill : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpJcQDxISL0 * Walden on Wilson : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvvW8eP1AAs * Walden on Abraham Lincoln : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lSfCve9rOA
@viewcode I have a BBC cassette (bought by my dad) with the Tomorrow's World (1978) theme. Also includes Hong Kong Beat, Diamonds in the Sky, and Quiller.
@viewcode I have a BBC cassette (bought by my dad) with the Tomorrow's World (1978) theme. Also includes Hong Kong Beat, Diamonds in the Sky, and Quiller.
> @Sunil_Prasannan said: > Exactly! People just spout cliché after cliché with no objective argument to support it. > > Like "Bollocks to Brexit"?
"Bollocks to Brexit" is a campaign slogan, which obviously has gained some traction as you quote it! I was referring to your hypothesis that Labour do not care for the working class. I don't support Labour but I think this is wrong.
Well at least the sub heading does indicate they have an alternative in mind, albeit one that has been tried before. And also in fairness given there's no incentive for Labour to come to agreement this side of the elections, and Corbyn is no doubt under the same level of pressure to demand a second referendum as May is to not allow one, pulling the talks might well do some good to their poll rating at least, given how many children think even talking to whoever is needed to get votes is a betrayal.
> @Alistair said: > > @nico67 said: > > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far. > > > > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow . > > > > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up . > > > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself. > > That must be why the polling shows a Labour wipe out in Scotland. > > Anecdotaly I've seen my first "fucking hates the SNP" type saying they will vote SNP to give Lab a bloody nose over their pro Brexit stance.
I had an interesting conversation with a friend today who has been staffing a stall for the European Movement, which is not allowed to support any particular party. A fair amount of interest, and clearly quite a strong Brexit Party vote (though few seem to understand that their policy is No Deal it seems). Lots of Labour switchers to the Lib Dems, confused or annoyed at the lack of a clear stance by their party.
> @viewcode said: > https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1127686510134870018 > > > > > > "Senior ministers sound desperate" > > "Senior ministers hope someone else solves their problem" > > > > etc. > > "Philip will persuade her!" "Philip will save us!" > > If we've reached this point, shouldn't we be doing "Downfall" videos?...
It is funny how history repeats itself. It has been said in the past and enshrined on the silver screen that Denis Thatcher was reputed to have done the same. This is probably made up gossip - though I wish she would throw in the towel! An equivalent of the downfall videos would be funny. Though the Hitler moustache and swastika insignia might be lost on todays audience. The thing about May is not her strength but her weakness and inability to change minds...
> "Senior ministers hope someone else solves their problem"
>
>
>
> etc.
>
> "Philip will persuade her!" "Philip will save us!"
>
> If we've reached this point, shouldn't we be doing "Downfall" videos?...
It is funny how history repeats itself. It has been said in the past and enshrined on the silver screen that Denis Thatcher was reputed to have done the same. This is probably made up gossip - though I wish she would throw in the towel! An equivalent of the downfall videos would be funny. Though the Hitler moustache and swastika insignia might be lost on todays audience. The thing about May is not her strength but her weakness and inability to change minds...
Some of the Scottish polls today are pretty extraordinary. Albeit with usual caveats, the momentum for the Lib Dems looks pretty remarkable... Joint second and highest level for I think over 25 years...
> @Foxy said: > > @Alistair said: > > > @nico67 said: > > > > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far. > > > > > > > > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow . > > > > > > > > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up . > > > > > > > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself. > > > > That must be why the polling shows a Labour wipe out in Scotland. > > > > Anecdotaly I've seen my first "fucking hates the SNP" type saying they will vote SNP to give Lab a bloody nose over their pro Brexit stance. > > I had an interesting conversation with a friend today who has been staffing a stall for the European Movement, which is not allowed to support any particular party. A fair amount of interest, and clearly quite a strong Brexit Party vote (though few seem to understand that their policy is No Deal it seems). Lots of Labour switchers to the Lib Dems, confused or annoyed at the lack of a clear stance by their party. > > 11 days time we find out how representative.
This is the problem of the making of the Brexit media, which has gone into overdrive in supporting Farage. The negative impact of No Deal Brexit does not seem to be understood by a significant proportion of the population. If we do get No Deal - I would not want to be in the shoes of those politicians who campaign for it. If people feel as though they have been misled now. They are going to be really pissed off at how No Deal impacts their lives....
> @Nigelb said: > > @IanB2 said: > > > > @geoffw said: > > > > RIP Brian Walden as well, a heavyweight in his own right and despite being a former Labour MP in his latter years a convinced Brexiteer > > > > > > > > Labour were always more Eurosceptic than the Tories back then. > > > > > > > > Partly because the most pro EEC figures like Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams defected to the SDP, the CUK of its day > > > > > > > > David Owen was/is Eurosceptic > > > > and also Peter Shore and Tony Benn inter alia. > > > > > > If he was in the 1980s, he kept quiet about it. Being pro-EU was a key driving force for the SDP split. > > > > Owen was very pro-EU in the 1980s - as was Lawson. Only in recent years have they become Eurosceptics. > > The zeal of the convert isn’t always entirely rational....
I went to a David Owen book event this very day in fact. He explained that he's been Eurosceptic since the late 1980s and definitely since Maastricht. He called for a UK referendum on the Lisborn Treaty which, if I recall, Blair did promise at one stage in 2003/04 but dropped it after his GE win in 2005.
He said he's a pragmatist and would thus vote for May's deal now. He said some sort of associate status with the EU would be his preference - i.e. in the EEA.
He said Blair had asked him to rejoin the Labour Party in 1996 and during their discussions about this he learnt that a) Blair was adamant the UK would join the euro if Labour won the GE and b) Blair "knew nothing about the euro whatsoever"!
Afterward I asked him what he thought of the latest guise of the SDP and he said they are not a "real party, really". I took this to mean they are a micro party and not heading anywhere at the moment, certainly not electorally!
> @Cicero said: > Some of the Scottish polls today are pretty extraordinary. Albeit with usual caveats, the momentum for the Lib Dems looks pretty remarkable... Joint second and highest level for I think over 25 years...
It is probably just shit stirring! Newton-Dunn creates articles like this on a frequent basis and they just disappear into the void of time. I give it little credence. If you are going to make a story up, you should at least make it believable. Next they will tell us that she uses the word 'fucking' in every other sentence behind closed doors!
> @KentRising said: > > I went to a David Owen book event this very day in fact. He explained that he's been Eurosceptic since the late 1980s and definitely since Maastricht. He called for a UK referendum on the Lisborn Treaty which, if I recall, Blair did promise at one stage in 2003/04 but dropped it after his GE win in 2005. >
My impression of people like Owen and Lawson is that they see the EEC/EU a bit like some people see NATO - something with no reason to exist in a post-Cold War context.
> @The_Taxman said: > > @Foxy said: > > > @Alistair said: > > > > @nico67 said: > > > > > > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up . > > > > > > > > > > > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself. > > > > > > That must be why the polling shows a Labour wipe out in Scotland. > > > > > > Anecdotaly I've seen my first "fucking hates the SNP" type saying they will vote SNP to give Lab a bloody nose over their pro Brexit stance. > > > > I had an interesting conversation with a friend today who has been staffing a stall for the European Movement, which is not allowed to support any particular party. A fair amount of interest, and clearly quite a strong Brexit Party vote (though few seem to understand that their policy is No Deal it seems). Lots of Labour switchers to the Lib Dems, confused or annoyed at the lack of a clear stance by their party. > > > > 11 days time we find out how representative. > > This is the problem of the making of the Brexit media, which has gone into overdrive in supporting Farage. The negative impact of No Deal Brexit does not seem to be understood by a significant proportion of the population. If we do get No Deal - I would not want to be in the shoes of those politicians who campaign for it. If people feel as though they have been misled now. They are going to be really pissed off at how No Deal impacts their lives....
It was the "I just want for them to get on with it" vote. But when asked " do you want No Deal, or Customs Union, or what?" the question was met with a blank stare.
Simple solutions to complex problems. It is the essence of Populism.
> I cannot believe that May would use that sort of language. She simply is not that in touch with the street vernacular.
It is probably just shit stirring! Newton-Dunn creates articles like this on a frequent basis and they just disappear into the void of time. I give it little credence. If you are going to make a story up, you should at least make it believable. Next they will tell us that she uses the word 'fucking' in every other sentence behind closed doors!
I humbly suggest you don't go around accusing journalists of making stories up.
Simple solutions to complex problems. It is the essence of Populism.
Simple solutions like 'bollocks to Brexit'?
(I think it is a good slogan btw, but it seems to me that people often say they criticise simple solutions to complex problems as populism and the like, but only when it is simple solutions they do not agree with)
> @The_Taxman said: > This is the problem of the making of the Brexit media, which has gone into overdrive in supporting Farage. The negative impact of No Deal Brexit does not seem to be understood by a significant proportion of the population. If we do get No Deal - I would not want to be in the shoes of those politicians who campaign for it. If people feel as though they have been misled now. They are going to be really pissed off at how No Deal impacts their lives....
The people who campaigned for it won't be the ones who get the blame, the people who implemented it will.
> @kle4 said: > Simple solutions to complex problems. It is the essence of Populism. > > Simple solutions like 'bollocks to Brexit'? > > (I think it is a good slogan btw, but it seems to me that people often say they criticise simple solutions to complex problems as populism and the like, but only when it is simple solutions they do not agree with)
There is a difference. If 70% of people could be convinced by "Bollocks to Brexit", it's a workable solution. If 70% of people become convinced by "Just Leave", it's a recipe for more chaos.
Some of the Scottish polls today are pretty extraordinary. Albeit with usual caveats, the momentum for the Lib Dems looks pretty remarkable... Joint second and highest level for I think over 25 years...
There haven't been any Scottish polls...
You are referring to SUBSAMPLES of polls that are being furiously retweeted.
> @williamglenn said: > > @KentRising said: > > > > I went to a David Owen book event this very day in fact. He explained that he's been Eurosceptic since the late 1980s and definitely since Maastricht. He called for a UK referendum on the Lisborn Treaty which, if I recall, Blair did promise at one stage in 2003/04 but dropped it after his GE win in 2005. > > > > My impression of people like Owen and Lawson is that they see the EEC/EU a bit like some people see NATO - something with no reason to exist in a post-Cold War context. > >
That's a good summation. Someone asked what he thought of the impact Brexit would have on the economy and he calmly said he was for a gradual, orderly withdrawal, continued close alignment on various things (hence his acceptance of the May offer), and as the world's 5th/6th economy that is over time doing a declining percentage of its trade with the EU the UK would be fine.
He also added that he had a second home in Greece - alright for some - and has seen at first hand the impact being stuck in the euro has had on a country and its people.
> @williamglenn said: > > @kle4 said: > > Simple solutions to complex problems. It is the essence of Populism. > > > > Simple solutions like 'bollocks to Brexit'? > > > > (I think it is a good slogan btw, but it seems to me that people often say they criticise simple solutions to complex problems as populism and the like, but only when it is simple solutions they do not agree with) > > There is a difference. If 70% of people could be convinced by "Bollocks to Brexit", it's a workable solution. If 70% of people become convinced by "Just Leave", it's a recipe for more chaos. ---------------------------------- Even if there is a difference, that makes the criticism that simple solutions to complex problems being the essence of populism (when used pejoritively, which I take to be the case here, but even if that is not what is intended, the use of populism is usually used in such a negative way) to be nonsense then, since it accepts sometimes simple solutions, populist solutions, to complex problems are good.
If simple, populist solutions are sometimes correct then it is wrong to critcise something on the basis it is a simple solution to a complex problem. More effort would be required than that.
> @Foxy said: > > @The_Taxman said: > > > @Foxy said: > > > > @Alistair said: > > > > > @nico67 said: > > > > > > > > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself. > > > > > > > > That must be why the polling shows a Labour wipe out in Scotland. > > > > > > > > Anecdotaly I've seen my first "fucking hates the SNP" type saying they will vote SNP to give Lab a bloody nose over their pro Brexit stance. > > > > > > I had an interesting conversation with a friend today who has been staffing a stall for the European Movement, which is not allowed to support any particular party. A fair amount of interest, and clearly quite a strong Brexit Party vote (though few seem to understand that their policy is No Deal it seems). Lots of Labour switchers to the Lib Dems, confused or annoyed at the lack of a clear stance by their party. > > > > > > 11 days time we find out how representative. > > > > This is the problem of the making of the Brexit media, which has gone into overdrive in supporting Farage. The negative impact of No Deal Brexit does not seem to be understood by a significant proportion of the population. If we do get No Deal - I would not want to be in the shoes of those politicians who campaign for it. If people feel as though they have been misled now. They are going to be really pissed off at how No Deal impacts their lives.... > > It was the "I just want for them to get on with it" vote. But when asked " do you want No Deal, or Customs Union, or what?" the question was met with a blank stare. > > Simple solutions to complex problems. It is the essence of Populism.
The problem is the Brexit supporting media, unless it changes its output to a more realistic proposition things are just going to get worse and worse. Mind you with Farage it is not the first time the 'tory' media have gone out of their way to support a political leader. Just look back into history and both major parties have had insane levels of positive coverage for a party leader. Blair, Brown and May all received grossly one sided support in the media. The last two Brown and May were portrayed in a fashion that their tenure in office showed to be grossly inaccurate. In contrast I would not say that Cameron had an easy time with the media until he became PM.
> I cannot believe that May would use that sort of language. She simply is not that in touch with the street vernacular.
It is probably just shit stirring! Newton-Dunn creates articles like this on a frequent basis and they just disappear into the void of time. I give it little credence. If you are going to make a story up, you should at least make it believable. Next they will tell us that she uses the word 'fucking' in every other sentence behind closed doors!
I humbly suggest you don't go around accusing journalists of making stories up.
I do not know if TND's article is made up or not and do not care. But I do need to point out that journalists making up stories is hardly unprecedented, as the inhabitants of Liverpool will testify.
> @kle4 said: > Simple solutions to complex problems. It is the essence of Populism. > > Simple solutions like 'bollocks to Brexit'? > > (I think it is a good slogan btw, but it seems to me that people often say they criticise simple solutions to complex problems as populism and the like, but only when it is simple solutions they do not agree with)
"Bollocks to Brexit" is a good slogan, and a simple one.
Revoking A50, with or without a referendum is very simple indeed as far as our European relationships go. Rather more complicated though for our domestic politics.
> @SandyRentool said: > Can we also expel those Labour Party members who spent the majority of their adult lives supporting far-left fringe organisations that sought to bring down the Labour Party? > > For some reason they now think they own the place, like a bunch of gangsters walking in to an East End boozer.
The key question though is 'were they party members at the time and did they advocate support for another party?'
> @rottenborough said: > > @Foxy said: > > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1127686069015781377 > > > > > > > > I cannot believe that May would use that sort of language. She simply is not that in touch with the street vernacular. > > > > It is probably just shit stirring! Newton-Dunn creates articles like this on a frequent basis and they just disappear into the void of time. I give it little credence. If you are going to make a story up, you should at least make it believable. Next they will tell us that she uses the word 'fucking' in every other sentence behind closed doors! > > I humbly suggest you don't go around accusing journalists of making stories up.
I actually like Newton-Dunn as he is often on the sky newspaper-review. I suppose it is my frustration with the Brexit supporting media. I don't think he made the story up but he may have embellished the story!
Have no idea of the veracity of the above. BUT, it does highlight a serious issue. How would this government cope if a black swan event were to occur? When urgent decisions of a profound nature needed taking in double quick time? Not well I should imagine.
> @KentRising said: > > @williamglenn said: > > > @KentRising said: > > > > > > I went to a David Owen book event this very day in fact. He explained that he's been Eurosceptic since the late 1980s and definitely since Maastricht. He called for a UK referendum on the Lisborn Treaty which, if I recall, Blair did promise at one stage in 2003/04 but dropped it after his GE win in 2005. > > > > > > > My impression of people like Owen and Lawson is that they see the EEC/EU a bit like some people see NATO - something with no reason to exist in a post-Cold War context. > > > > > > That's a good summation. Someone asked what he thought of the impact Brexit would have on the economy and he calmly said he was for a gradual, orderly withdrawal, continued close alignment on various things (hence his acceptance of the May offer), and as the world's 5th/6th economy that is over time doing a declining percentage of its trade with the EU the UK would be fine. > > He also added that he had a second home in Greece - alright for some - and has seen at first hand the impact being stuck in the euro has had on a country and its people.
Being in the EU and being a member of the Euro are two different propositions economically. You can support the former but be opposed to the latter. I can see that being in the Euro unless you happen to be Germany is a bad thing but the UK has never been in the Euro and I doubt will ever be in it...
> @justin124 said: > > @nico67 said: > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far. > > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow . > > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up . > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
Of course Brexit varies in importance but there’s enough Labour Remainers who could cause huge problems for the party.
Much has been made of the Opinium poll but the Comres is a shocker for Labour . The clear movement is from Labour to Lib Dems .
Make no mistake if Corbyn helps to facilitate Brexit he is in big trouble . The Lib Dem broken promise on student fees will be nothing compared to if Corbyn helps to bail out the Tories .
> @Foxy said: > Congratutlations to Scrapheap for winning the PB Fantasy football, and to TSE for saving me from the booby prize! > > An omen for the CL final?
> @The_Taxman said: > > @KentRising said: > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > @KentRising said: > > > > > > > > I went to a David Owen book event this very day in fact. He explained that he's been Eurosceptic since the late 1980s and definitely since Maastricht. He called for a UK referendum on the Lisborn Treaty which, if I recall, Blair did promise at one stage in 2003/04 but dropped it after his GE win in 2005. > > > > > > > > > > My impression of people like Owen and Lawson is that they see the EEC/EU a bit like some people see NATO - something with no reason to exist in a post-Cold War context. > > > > > > > > > > That's a good summation. Someone asked what he thought of the impact Brexit would have on the economy and he calmly said he was for a gradual, orderly withdrawal, continued close alignment on various things (hence his acceptance of the May offer), and as the world's 5th/6th economy that is over time doing a declining percentage of its trade with the EU the UK would be fine. > > > > He also added that he had a second home in Greece - alright for some - and has seen at first hand the impact being stuck in the euro has had on a country and its people. > > Being in the EU and being a member of the Euro are two different propositions economically. You can support the former but be opposed to the latter. I can see that being in the Euro unless you happen to be Germany is a bad thing but the UK has never been in the Euro and I doubt will ever be in it...
That is true and my quick summary of what he said should not be understood to mean he was conflating the two.
Tsk tsk. I hope Bidens campaign didn't put this out there.
It is very patronising. His campaign suggested another black woman, Stacy Abrams be his VP and it went down like a cold bucket of sick.
Doesn’t sound like it at all, reading the story, though I guess it’s just about possible. As the current front runner by some distance, he doesn’t have much to gain from such a suggestion, and as you point out, has been burned before.
> @nico67 said: > > @justin124 said: > > > @nico67 said: > > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far. > > > > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow . > > > > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up . > > > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself. > > Of course Brexit varies in importance but there’s enough Labour Remainers who could cause huge problems for the party. > > Much has been made of the Opinium poll but the Comres is a shocker for Labour . The clear movement is from Labour to Lib Dems . > > Make no mistake if Corbyn helps to facilitate Brexit he is in big trouble . The Lib Dem broken promise on student fees will be nothing compared to if Corbyn helps to bail out the Tories . >
Not if they are perceived to have bowed to him. Leaving the EU was implied by the 2017 Manifesto.
Have no idea of the veracity of the above. BUT, it does highlight a serious issue. How would this government cope if a black swan event were to occur?
When urgent decisions of a profound nature needed taking in double quick time?
Not well I should imagine.
I suspect Metro is small enough for the FSA scheme to cope with most customers and the fall-out across the wider banking sector (with inter-bank debt) would be minimal.
> > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far.
> > >
> > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow .
> > >
> > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
> >
> > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
>
> Of course Brexit varies in importance but there’s enough Labour Remainers who could cause huge problems for the party.
>
> Much has been made of the Opinium poll but the Comres is a shocker for Labour . The clear movement is from Labour to Lib Dems .
>
> Make no mistake if Corbyn helps to facilitate Brexit he is in big trouble . The Lib Dem broken promise on student fees will be nothing compared to if Corbyn helps to bail out the Tories .
>
Not if they are perceived to have bowed to him.
The Tory media and Tory supporters and plenty of Tory MPs think they have done that just by talking to him, it doesn't seem to have made selling a deal to Lab MPs go any smoother, because it doesn't deliver what they want and never will. And if it doesn't persuade them to accept it, and thus not inclined to punish him, I fail to see why it would persuade Labour voters generally even if May literally kowtowed before him on the steps of No.10.
Tsk tsk. I hope Bidens campaign didn't put this out there.
It is very patronising. His campaign suggested another black woman, Stacy Abrams be his VP and it went down like a cold bucket of sick.
Doesn’t sound like it at all, reading the story, though I guess it’s just about possible. As the current front runner by some distance, he doesn’t have much to gain from such a suggestion, and as you point out, has been burned before.
Great ticket.
There has to be a great answer to the 'one heart beat away' argument when the candidate is Biden's age.
I have punted Biden-Buttigieg many times on here before. Has a better ring to it. But Harris works.
> @kle4 said: > > @nico67 said: > > > > @justin124 said: > > > > > @nico67 said: > > > > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far. > > > > > > > > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow . > > > > > > > > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up . > > > > > > > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself. > > > > > > Of course Brexit varies in importance but there’s enough Labour Remainers who could cause huge problems for the party. > > > > > > Much has been made of the Opinium poll but the Comres is a shocker for Labour . The clear movement is from Labour to Lib Dems . > > > > > > Make no mistake if Corbyn helps to facilitate Brexit he is in big trouble . The Lib Dem broken promise on student fees will be nothing compared to if Corbyn helps to bail out the Tories . > > > > > > > Not if they are perceived to have bowed to him. > > The Tory media and Tory supporters and plenty of Tory MPs think they have done that just by talking to him, it doesn't seem to have made selling a deal to Lab MPs go any smoother, because it doesn't deliver what they want and never will. And if it doesn't persuade them to accept it, and thus not inclined to punish him, I fail to see why it would persuade Labour voters generally even if May literally kowtowed before him on the steps of No.10.
But that rather assumes that Brexit is an overriding concern for most Labour voters. I don't think it is!
But that rather assumes that Brexit is an overriding concern for most Labour voters. I don't think it is!
It assumes nothing of the kind. It assumes that it is an issue of some concern for them, not necessarily the overriding concern. Going against their view, and being unable to sell a Tory capitulation even if it is the truth, would surely have an effect. Not as big as some think, perhaps, but that's a question of degree.
> @kle4 said: > But that rather assumes that Brexit is an overriding concern for most Labour voters. I don't think it is! > > It assumes nothing of the kind. It assumes that it is an issue of some concern for them, not necessarily the overriding concern. Going against their view, and being unable to sell a Tory capitulation even if it is the truth, would surely have an effect. Not as big as some think, perhaps, but that's a question of degree.
The EU Remainer obsessives are likely to have already switched to the LD or CUK.From here on , I suspect the Labour vote is as likely to recover a bit by 23rd May as to decline further.
> @justin124 said: > > @kle4 said: > > > @nico67 said: > > > > > > @justin124 said: > > > > > > > @nico67 said: > > > > > > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up . > > > > > > > > > > > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself. > > > > > > > > > > Of course Brexit varies in importance but there’s enough Labour Remainers who could cause huge problems for the party. > > > > > > > > > > Much has been made of the Opinium poll but the Comres is a shocker for Labour . The clear movement is from Labour to Lib Dems . > > > > > > > > > > Make no mistake if Corbyn helps to facilitate Brexit he is in big trouble . The Lib Dem broken promise on student fees will be nothing compared to if Corbyn helps to bail out the Tories . > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not if they are perceived to have bowed to him. > > > > The Tory media and Tory supporters and plenty of Tory MPs think they have done that just by talking to him, it doesn't seem to have made selling a deal to Lab MPs go any smoother, because it doesn't deliver what they want and never will. And if it doesn't persuade them to accept it, and thus not inclined to punish him, I fail to see why it would persuade Labour voters generally even if May literally kowtowed before him on the steps of No.10. > > But that rather assumes that Brexit is an overriding concern for most Labour voters. I don't think it is!
It isn't for this one. Most of the issues I feel need addressing could be done inside or outside the EU. Part of the reason I voted Remain. But it may be I am in a minority.
> @Saltire said: > The race for 2nd place is beginning to get pretty close... > > <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">European Election Voting Intention:
> @Saltire said: > The race for 2nd place is beginning to get pretty close... > > <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">European Election Voting Intention:
> @justin124 said: > > @IanB2 said: > > > @geoffw said: > > > RIP Brian Walden as well, a heavyweight in his own right and despite being a former Labour MP in his latter years a convinced Brexiteer > > > > > > Labour were always more Eurosceptic than the Tories back then. > > > > > > Partly because the most pro EEC figures like Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams defected to the SDP, the CUK of its day > > > > > > David Owen was/is Eurosceptic > > > and also Peter Shore and Tony Benn inter alia. > > > > If he was in the 1980s, he kept quiet about it. Being pro-EU was a key driving force for the SDP split. > > Owen was very pro-EU in the 1980s - as was Lawson. Only in recent years have they become Eurosceptics.
Lawson's views were always quite nuanced. It's well worth reading his book The View From Number Eleven.
> @rcs1000 said: > > @justin124 said: > > > @IanB2 said: > > > > @geoffw said: > > > > RIP Brian Walden as well, a heavyweight in his own right and despite being a former Labour MP in his latter years a convinced Brexiteer > > > > > > > > Labour were always more Eurosceptic than the Tories back then. > > > > > > > > Partly because the most pro EEC figures like Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams defected to the SDP, the CUK of its day > > > > > > > > David Owen was/is Eurosceptic > > > > and also Peter Shore and Tony Benn inter alia. > > > > > > If he was in the 1980s, he kept quiet about it. Being pro-EU was a key driving force for the SDP split. > > > > Owen was very pro-EU in the 1980s - as was Lawson. Only in recent years have they become Eurosceptics. > > Lawson's views were always quite nuanced. It's well worth reading his book The View From Number Eleven.
Nuance, like his chubby cuddliness, seems to have deserted Lawson.
The race for 2nd place is beginning to get pretty close... European Election Voting Intention: BXP: 34% (+4) LAB: 16% (-5) LDM: 15% (+5) GRN: 11% (+2) CON: 10% (-3) CHUK: 5% (-4)
Via @YouGov, 8-9 May. Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.— Election Maps UK (see @ElectionMapsUK May 12, 2019)
Lord God above, that's...just weird. WTF? I mean, what?
> @viewcode said: > The race for 2nd place is beginning to get pretty close... > > > > European Election Voting Intention: > > > > BXP: 34% (+4) > > LAB: 16% (-5) > > LDM: 15% (+5) > > GRN: 11% (+2) > > CON: 10% (-3) > > CHUK: 5% (-4) > > > > Via @YouGov, 8-9 May. > > Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) May 12, 2019 > > Lord God above, that's...just weird. WTF? I mean, what?
++++
It's not weird. It's Scotland after Sindyref. Entirely predictable. A very large chunk of Brits feel cheated of their democratic rights, and, moreover, the traditional parties look malignant, inept, divided and mendacious. Of course, in the absence of Brexit, the Brexit rebels will benefit, hugely. I suspect they are now getting votes from people who don't even want Brexit.
These voters just want to give the mainstream politicians, Labour or Conservative, an absolute shoeing.
> @Byronic said: > > @williamglenn said: > > Con and Lab plummeting in Westminster polling. > > > > https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1127723220352819200?s=21 > > ++++ > > As predicted by some of us, Labour are now taking the heavy punches, because the Tories are knocked unconscious. > > This is Sindyref, the aftermath, times a million. No one wants T May's lies, no one wants Corbyn's Stalinism. > > If Farage is canny (and reins in his madder candidates) he could win a General Election. He is Trump, with less money, but smarter.
Hang on! They’ve lost 10% and Farage has only gained 3% of it.
Although Baxtered, the WVI produces this Con 274 Lab. 264 LD. 25 SNP. 56 BP. 8. Which shows. 1) FPTP is utterly broken. 2) Small changes make HUGE differences. 3) No one knows anymore... Although recent form shows you know better than me...
> @williamglenn said: > > @Byronic said: > > > @williamglenn said: > > > Con and Lab plummeting in Westminster polling. > > > > > > https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1127723220352819200?s=21 > > > > ++++ > > > > As predicted by some of us, Labour are now taking the heavy punches, because the Tories are knocked unconscious. > > > > This is Sindyref, the aftermath, times a million. No one wants T May's lies, no one wants Corbyn's Stalinism. > > > > If Farage is canny (and reins in his madder candidates) he could win a General Election. He is Trump, with less money, but smarter. > > Hang on! They’ve lost 10% and Farage has only gained 3% of it. <
++++++
This is a brand new party and they are already on 18% - for a General Election, not the euros. If the CUKS had managed this, Remainers like you and I would be singing from the rooftops.
Let's face it, the CUKS have failed, miserably. Remain is divided but Leave have a credible leader and a plausible new movement. As a result the Hard Leave Party is racing to victory in the euros, and after that? - who knows.
Its also called proportional representation - people actually voting for a party they want (Brexit, Green, LD) than for the party they hate the least out of Labour and Tory. A bit like June 2016 pretty much every vote counts and there are no safe seats (bar possibly the NE region).
Unfortunately we revert back to first past the post in England - bar the London Assembly elections next year - and if we do leave the EU it may be the last time voters in England outside London get this opportunity!
Looking at the latest GE poll you could in theory by a quirk of votes get a Labour majority government on less than 25% of the vote!
As for campaigning I live in a pretty remain area of London - and despite the fact the election is 10 days away and postal votes have now gone out the only leaflet I have had is from the Brexit party. I find that extraordinary.
Via <a href="https://twitter.com/YouGov?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@YouGov<;/a>, 8-9 May. Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.</p>— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) <a href="https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1127720320067149825?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">May 12, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> > > > > BAXTERED, that result produces this: > > > > Labour: 90 (yes) > > Tories: 0 (yes) > > Libs: 24 > > SNP: 56 > > Brexit Party: 456 > > Although Baxtered, the WVI produces this > Con 274 > Lab. 264 > LD. 25 > SNP. 56 > BP. 8. > Which shows. > 1) FPTP is utterly broken. > 2) Small changes make HUGE differences. > 3) No one knows anymore... Although recent form shows you know better than me... <
++++
I think we can agree on this: with changes on this scale, traditional electoral predictions are useless (cf Scotland after indyref) and all assumptions must be challenged.
Somehow fewer voters think that the Brexit party is here to stay than would vote for them in a General Election. This is partly what makes the results in 2 weeks time maybe not as important as people from all sides will portray them. Most of the public are looking at the Brexit Party as a vehicle to get a certain job done and then dispose of them. This is why attacks of Farage's statements about various policy issues make no difference. People don't care about them because they not important to the task at hand. They think that if they vote for the Brexit party we will get Brexit, with or without a deal, and then we can then forget about the Brexit party and move on.
What matters most is the actual impact of these polls.
And that is surely going to be that TMay is at long last going to get forced out after the Euros (if she doesn't resign the 1922 will ultimately feel forced to change the rules) and she will get replaced by a Brexiteer.
Boris seems most likely - because Con Party members are going to want someone they know and are confident will be able to perform on TV.
> @MikeL said: > What matters most is the actual impact of these polls. > > And that is surely going to be that TMay is at long last going to get forced out after tbe Euros (if she doesn't resign the 1922 will ultimately feel forced to change teb rules) and she will get replaced by a Brexiteer. > > Boris seems most likely - becuase Con Party members are going to want someone they know and are confident will be able to perform on TV.
++++
Agreed. She will go now. If she doesn't they will *metaphorically* assassinate her. No Tory leader can sustain a poll rating of TEN PERCENT. She has failed in every way possible, and then some.
Via <a href="https://twitter.com/YouGov?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@YouGov<;/a>, 8-9 May. Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.</p>— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) <a href="https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1127720320067149825?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">May 12, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> > > > > > > +++++ > > > > That is STUPENDOUS. And I am a Remainer. > > > > Revolution is exciting. > > Its also called proportional representation - people actually voting for a party they want (Brexit, Green, LD) than for the party they hate the least out of Labour and Tory. A bit like June 2016 pretty much every vote counts and there are no safe seats (bar possibly the NE region). > > Unfortunately we revert back to first past the post in England - bar the London Assembly elections next year - and if we do leave the EU it may be the last time voters in England outside London get this opportunity! > > Looking at the latest GE poll you could in theory by a quirk of votes get a Labour majority government on less than 25% of the vote! > > As for campaigning I live in a pretty remain area of London - and despite the fact the election is 10 days away and postal votes have now gone out the only leaflet I have had is from the Brexit party. I find that extraordinary.
Only two parties are taking it seriously (in contrast I have had only a LD leaflet). No surprise they are the ones hoovering up.
Comments
> > @Daveyboy1961 said:
> > > @Theuniondivvie said:
> > > https://twitter.com/benjaminbutter/status/1127609244780572672
> >
> > Very droll...:)
> >
>
> First a plane, then a car - next the country?
Except Farage wasn't running either of them.
https://twitter.com/eilidhmax/status/1127613447536041986
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/12/joe-biden-kamala-harris-dream-ticket-1317561
> > @geoffw said:
> > RIP Brian Walden as well, a heavyweight in his own right and despite being a former Labour MP in his latter years a convinced Brexiteer
> >
> > Labour were always more Eurosceptic than the Tories back then.
> >
> > Partly because the most pro EEC figures like Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams defected to the SDP, the CUK of its day
> >
> > David Owen was/is Eurosceptic
> > and also Peter Shore and Tony Benn inter alia.
>
> If he was in the 1980s, he kept quiet about it. Being pro-EU was a key driving force for the SDP split.
Owen was very pro-EU in the 1980s - as was Lawson. Only in recent years have they become Eurosceptics.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/03/18/if-the-arch-europhile-lord-owen-wants-out-of-the-eu-it-should-ma/
> Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far.
>
> Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow .
>
> He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
the interviewee would have the opportunity to say more than they intended, and by treating people as if they were serious he made progress in discussion. (The opposite of the often excellent Andrew Marr with Nigel Farage). I think Evan Davies is the nearest to him at the moment.
> Staunch SLabber making no recommendations how people should vote in the Euros, oh no, definitely not.
>
>
>
> https://twitter.com/eilidhmax/status/1127613447536041986
>
>
>
> Well if I were a Labour Party enforcer I'd be sling him out. Disloyalty is bad, but disloyalty combined with smirking is intolerable.
I agree totally.
For some reason they now think they own the place, like a bunch of gangsters walking in to an East End boozer.
> > @justin124 said:
>
> > Brian Walden has died at 86. He supported Brexit - though had been an Anti- Marketeer even back in the 1960s.
>
>
>
> He was great on Weekend World. Used to love that prog. When all the other kids were out playing in the woods I'd be inside glued to that, watching Walden interview some prominent politician for a full hour in tremendous depth. My pals would try and get me to come out but I would always refuse if WW was on. After a while they got the message and stopped coming round. Happy days. RIP Brian.
>
> I have similar memories.
> WW was the first program to persuade me politics might not be utterly tedious (remember back then they used to televise the TUC conference... incomprehensibly dull to a kid)
>
>
>
> BW had a wonderful interview technique which needs reviving. Instead of quick fire questions and looking for a one line attack he would take some cliché of an answer he had been given and seek to get the politician to expand and explain it further. By treating the clichés as if they actually meant something
> the interviewee would have the opportunity to say more than they intended, and by treating people as if they were serious he made progress in discussion. (The opposite of the often excellent Andrew Marr with Nigel Farage). I think Evan Davies is the nearest to him at the moment.
Though after a few years they sussed his technique, and he almost as often tied himself in knots as his interviewee.
* h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95qLDc7zwYY : World in Action
* h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsf6zIxlOd8 : Weekend World (1985)
* h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqxA3Inlzrw : Newsnight (1990)
* h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc9v1vfBlHs : Tomorrow's World (1987)
* h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WOBFwBBaZM : Tomorrow's World (1987)
* h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERaF-h8UhvU : Tomorrow's World (1978)
And last but not least, David Lowe's 1999 BBC News theme, now in it's 20th year and still being remixed...
* h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g2lZgKugoY
...only slightly better than the Bill Bailey loving pastiche...
* h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc9xLvrV_Zw
...which when repaired is awesome.
* h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYDkgQc8HYg
I have a BBC cassette (bought by my dad) with the Tomorrow's World (1978) theme. Also includes Hong Kong Beat, Diamonds in the Sky, and Quiller.
Anecdotaly I've seen my first "fucking hates the SNP" type saying they will vote SNP to give Lab a bloody nose over their pro Brexit stance.
* Walden on the Labour Party and socialism: h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOlXrqFWBj0
* Walden on the Maastricht Rebellion: h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3heF-EuzlA
* Walden on Edward Heath and Enoch Powell: h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktxzDWZsdrg
* Walden on Margaret Thatcher and the 1980s : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMba2HjWaUY
* Walden on Gaitskell : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK2DfWxymrg
* Walden on Gandhi : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlsVM4gF1t4
* Walden on Callaghan: h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvc7H8hrAg8
* Walden on Churchill : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpJcQDxISL0
* Walden on Wilson : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvvW8eP1AAs
* Walden on Abraham Lincoln : h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lSfCve9rOA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM3uuypgvTc
"Senior ministers sound desperate"
"Senior ministers hope someone else solves their problem"
etc.
> Exactly! People just spout cliché after cliché with no objective argument to support it.
>
> Like "Bollocks to Brexit"?
"Bollocks to Brexit" is a campaign slogan, which obviously has gained some traction as you quote it! I was referring to your hypothesis that Labour do not care for the working class. I don't support Labour but I think this is wrong.
>
> 'Within a month' sounds like they don't think she will resign even after the apocalyptic EP elections without assistance.
She probably has one of her classic tone-deaf speeches lined up about how people just want MPs to vote for her deal.
If we've reached this point, shouldn't we be doing "Downfall" videos?...
> > @nico67 said:
>
> > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far.
>
> >
>
> > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow .
>
> >
>
> > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
>
>
>
> You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
>
> That must be why the polling shows a Labour wipe out in Scotland.
>
> Anecdotaly I've seen my first "fucking hates the SNP" type saying they will vote SNP to give Lab a bloody nose over their pro Brexit stance.
I had an interesting conversation with a friend today who has been staffing a stall for the European Movement, which is not allowed to support any particular party. A fair amount of interest, and clearly quite a strong Brexit Party vote (though few seem to understand that their policy is No Deal it seems). Lots of Labour switchers to the Lib Dems, confused or annoyed at the lack of a clear stance by their party.
11 days time we find out how representative.
> https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1127686510134870018
>
>
>
>
>
> "Senior ministers sound desperate"
>
> "Senior ministers hope someone else solves their problem"
>
>
>
> etc.
>
> "Philip will persuade her!" "Philip will save us!"
>
> If we've reached this point, shouldn't we be doing "Downfall" videos?...
It is funny how history repeats itself. It has been said in the past and enshrined on the silver screen that Denis Thatcher was reputed to have done the same. This is probably made up gossip - though I wish she would throw in the towel! An equivalent of the downfall videos would be funny. Though the Hitler moustache and swastika insignia might be lost on todays audience. The thing about May is not her strength but her weakness and inability to change minds...
> https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1127686069015781377
I cannot believe that May would use that sort of language. She simply is not that in touch with the street vernacular.
> The Democratic ticket I suggested months ago might just be on the cards.
> https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/12/joe-biden-kamala-harris-dream-ticket-1317561
Tsk tsk. I hope Bidens campaign didn't put this out there.
It is very patronising. His campaign suggested another black woman, Stacy Abrams be his VP and it went down like a cold bucket of sick.
> > @Alistair said:
> > > @nico67 said:
> >
> > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow .
> >
> > >
> >
> > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
> >
> >
> >
> > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
> >
> > That must be why the polling shows a Labour wipe out in Scotland.
> >
> > Anecdotaly I've seen my first "fucking hates the SNP" type saying they will vote SNP to give Lab a bloody nose over their pro Brexit stance.
>
> I had an interesting conversation with a friend today who has been staffing a stall for the European Movement, which is not allowed to support any particular party. A fair amount of interest, and clearly quite a strong Brexit Party vote (though few seem to understand that their policy is No Deal it seems). Lots of Labour switchers to the Lib Dems, confused or annoyed at the lack of a clear stance by their party.
>
> 11 days time we find out how representative.
This is the problem of the making of the Brexit media, which has gone into overdrive in supporting Farage. The negative impact of No Deal Brexit does not seem to be understood by a significant proportion of the population. If we do get No Deal - I would not want to be in the shoes of those politicians who campaign for it. If people feel as though they have been misled now. They are going to be really pissed off at how No Deal impacts their lives....
> > @IanB2 said:
>
> > > @geoffw said:
>
> > > RIP Brian Walden as well, a heavyweight in his own right and despite being a former Labour MP in his latter years a convinced Brexiteer
>
> > >
>
> > > Labour were always more Eurosceptic than the Tories back then.
>
> > >
>
> > > Partly because the most pro EEC figures like Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams defected to the SDP, the CUK of its day
>
> > >
>
> > > David Owen was/is Eurosceptic
>
> > > and also Peter Shore and Tony Benn inter alia.
>
> >
>
> > If he was in the 1980s, he kept quiet about it. Being pro-EU was a key driving force for the SDP split.
>
>
>
> Owen was very pro-EU in the 1980s - as was Lawson. Only in recent years have they become Eurosceptics.
>
> The zeal of the convert isn’t always entirely rational....
I went to a David Owen book event this very day in fact. He explained that he's been Eurosceptic since the late 1980s and definitely since Maastricht. He called for a UK referendum on the Lisborn Treaty which, if I recall, Blair did promise at one stage in 2003/04 but dropped it after his GE win in 2005.
He said he's a pragmatist and would thus vote for May's deal now. He said some sort of associate status with the EU would be his preference - i.e. in the EEA.
He said Blair had asked him to rejoin the Labour Party in 1996 and during their discussions about this he learnt that a) Blair was adamant the UK would join the euro if Labour won the GE and b) Blair "knew nothing about the euro whatsoever"!
Afterward I asked him what he thought of the latest guise of the SDP and he said they are not a "real party, really". I took this to mean they are a micro party and not heading anywhere at the moment, certainly not electorally!
> Some of the Scottish polls today are pretty extraordinary. Albeit with usual caveats, the momentum for the Lib Dems looks pretty remarkable... Joint second and highest level for I think over 25 years...
Which Scottish polls?
> > @williamglenn said:
> > https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1127686069015781377
>
> I cannot believe that May would use that sort of language. She simply is not that in touch with the street vernacular.
It is probably just shit stirring! Newton-Dunn creates articles like this on a frequent basis and they just disappear into the void of time. I give it little credence. If you are going to make a story up, you should at least make it believable. Next they will tell us that she uses the word 'fucking' in every other sentence behind closed doors!
>
> I went to a David Owen book event this very day in fact. He explained that he's been Eurosceptic since the late 1980s and definitely since Maastricht. He called for a UK referendum on the Lisborn Treaty which, if I recall, Blair did promise at one stage in 2003/04 but dropped it after his GE win in 2005.
>
My impression of people like Owen and Lawson is that they see the EEC/EU a bit like some people see NATO - something with no reason to exist in a post-Cold War context.
https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1127544450585174018
The licence fee may be up for renewal when he is in Downing Street.
> > @Foxy said:
> > > @Alistair said:
> > > > @nico67 said:
> > >
> > > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow .
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
> > >
> > > That must be why the polling shows a Labour wipe out in Scotland.
> > >
> > > Anecdotaly I've seen my first "fucking hates the SNP" type saying they will vote SNP to give Lab a bloody nose over their pro Brexit stance.
> >
> > I had an interesting conversation with a friend today who has been staffing a stall for the European Movement, which is not allowed to support any particular party. A fair amount of interest, and clearly quite a strong Brexit Party vote (though few seem to understand that their policy is No Deal it seems). Lots of Labour switchers to the Lib Dems, confused or annoyed at the lack of a clear stance by their party.
> >
> > 11 days time we find out how representative.
>
> This is the problem of the making of the Brexit media, which has gone into overdrive in supporting Farage. The negative impact of No Deal Brexit does not seem to be understood by a significant proportion of the population. If we do get No Deal - I would not want to be in the shoes of those politicians who campaign for it. If people feel as though they have been misled now. They are going to be really pissed off at how No Deal impacts their lives....
It was the "I just want for them to get on with it" vote. But when asked " do you want No Deal, or Customs Union, or what?" the question was met with a blank stare.
Simple solutions to complex problems. It is the essence of Populism.
(I think it is a good slogan btw, but it seems to me that people often say they criticise simple solutions to complex problems as populism and the like, but only when it is simple solutions they do not agree with)
> This is the problem of the making of the Brexit media, which has gone into overdrive in supporting Farage. The negative impact of No Deal Brexit does not seem to be understood by a significant proportion of the population. If we do get No Deal - I would not want to be in the shoes of those politicians who campaign for it. If people feel as though they have been misled now. They are going to be really pissed off at how No Deal impacts their lives....
The people who campaigned for it won't be the ones who get the blame, the people who implemented it will.
> Simple solutions to complex problems. It is the essence of Populism.
>
> Simple solutions like 'bollocks to Brexit'?
>
> (I think it is a good slogan btw, but it seems to me that people often say they criticise simple solutions to complex problems as populism and the like, but only when it is simple solutions they do not agree with)
There is a difference. If 70% of people could be convinced by "Bollocks to Brexit", it's a workable solution. If 70% of people become convinced by "Just Leave", it's a recipe for more chaos.
You are referring to SUBSAMPLES of polls that are being furiously retweeted.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7020755/Metro-Bank-tells-customers-money-safe-despite-social-media-rumours.html
> > @KentRising said:
> >
> > I went to a David Owen book event this very day in fact. He explained that he's been Eurosceptic since the late 1980s and definitely since Maastricht. He called for a UK referendum on the Lisborn Treaty which, if I recall, Blair did promise at one stage in 2003/04 but dropped it after his GE win in 2005.
> >
>
> My impression of people like Owen and Lawson is that they see the EEC/EU a bit like some people see NATO - something with no reason to exist in a post-Cold War context.
>
>
That's a good summation. Someone asked what he thought of the impact Brexit would have on the economy and he calmly said he was for a gradual, orderly withdrawal, continued close alignment on various things (hence his acceptance of the May offer), and as the world's 5th/6th economy that is over time doing a declining percentage of its trade with the EU the UK would be fine.
He also added that he had a second home in Greece - alright for some - and has seen at first hand the impact being stuck in the euro has had on a country and its people.
> > @kle4 said:
> > Simple solutions to complex problems. It is the essence of Populism.
> >
> > Simple solutions like 'bollocks to Brexit'?
> >
> > (I think it is a good slogan btw, but it seems to me that people often say they criticise simple solutions to complex problems as populism and the like, but only when it is simple solutions they do not agree with)
>
> There is a difference. If 70% of people could be convinced by "Bollocks to Brexit", it's a workable solution. If 70% of people become convinced by "Just Leave", it's a recipe for more chaos.
----------------------------------
Even if there is a difference, that makes the criticism that simple solutions to complex problems being the essence of populism (when used pejoritively, which I take to be the case here, but even if that is not what is intended, the use of populism is usually used in such a negative way) to be nonsense then, since it accepts sometimes simple solutions, populist solutions, to complex problems are good.
If simple, populist solutions are sometimes correct then it is wrong to critcise something on the basis it is a simple solution to a complex problem. More effort would be required than that.
> > @The_Taxman said:
> > > @Foxy said:
> > > > @Alistair said:
> > > > > @nico67 said:
> > > >
> > > > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow .
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
> > > >
> > > > That must be why the polling shows a Labour wipe out in Scotland.
> > > >
> > > > Anecdotaly I've seen my first "fucking hates the SNP" type saying they will vote SNP to give Lab a bloody nose over their pro Brexit stance.
> > >
> > > I had an interesting conversation with a friend today who has been staffing a stall for the European Movement, which is not allowed to support any particular party. A fair amount of interest, and clearly quite a strong Brexit Party vote (though few seem to understand that their policy is No Deal it seems). Lots of Labour switchers to the Lib Dems, confused or annoyed at the lack of a clear stance by their party.
> > >
> > > 11 days time we find out how representative.
> >
> > This is the problem of the making of the Brexit media, which has gone into overdrive in supporting Farage. The negative impact of No Deal Brexit does not seem to be understood by a significant proportion of the population. If we do get No Deal - I would not want to be in the shoes of those politicians who campaign for it. If people feel as though they have been misled now. They are going to be really pissed off at how No Deal impacts their lives....
>
> It was the "I just want for them to get on with it" vote. But when asked " do you want No Deal, or Customs Union, or what?" the question was met with a blank stare.
>
> Simple solutions to complex problems. It is the essence of Populism.
The problem is the Brexit supporting media, unless it changes its output to a more realistic proposition things are just going to get worse and worse. Mind you with Farage it is not the first time the 'tory' media have gone out of their way to support a political leader. Just look back into history and both major parties have had insane levels of positive coverage for a party leader. Blair, Brown and May all received grossly one sided support in the media. The last two Brown and May were portrayed in a fashion that their tenure in office showed to be grossly inaccurate. In contrast I would not say that Cameron had an easy time with the media until he became PM.
> Simple solutions to complex problems. It is the essence of Populism.
>
> Simple solutions like 'bollocks to Brexit'?
>
> (I think it is a good slogan btw, but it seems to me that people often say they criticise simple solutions to complex problems as populism and the like, but only when it is simple solutions they do not agree with)
"Bollocks to Brexit" is a good slogan, and a simple one.
Revoking A50, with or without a referendum is very simple indeed as far as our European relationships go. Rather more complicated though for our domestic politics.
> Can we also expel those Labour Party members who spent the majority of their adult lives supporting far-left fringe organisations that sought to bring down the Labour Party?
>
> For some reason they now think they own the place, like a bunch of gangsters walking in to an East End boozer.
The key question though is 'were they party members at the time and did they advocate support for another party?'
> > @Foxy said:
>
> > > @williamglenn said:
>
> > > https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1127686069015781377
>
>
>
> >
>
> > I cannot believe that May would use that sort of language. She simply is not that in touch with the street vernacular.
>
>
>
> It is probably just shit stirring! Newton-Dunn creates articles like this on a frequent basis and they just disappear into the void of time. I give it little credence. If you are going to make a story up, you should at least make it believable. Next they will tell us that she uses the word 'fucking' in every other sentence behind closed doors!
>
> I humbly suggest you don't go around accusing journalists of making stories up.
I actually like Newton-Dunn as he is often on the sky newspaper-review. I suppose it is my frustration with the Brexit supporting media. I don't think he made the story up but he may have embellished the story!
An omen for the CL final?
> 2008 redux baby
>
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7020755/Metro-Bank-tells-customers-money-safe-despite-social-media-rumours.html
Have no idea of the veracity of the above. BUT, it does highlight a serious issue. How would this government cope if a black swan event were to occur?
When urgent decisions of a profound nature needed taking in double quick time?
Not well I should imagine.
> > @williamglenn said:
> > > @KentRising said:
> > >
> > > I went to a David Owen book event this very day in fact. He explained that he's been Eurosceptic since the late 1980s and definitely since Maastricht. He called for a UK referendum on the Lisborn Treaty which, if I recall, Blair did promise at one stage in 2003/04 but dropped it after his GE win in 2005.
> > >
> >
> > My impression of people like Owen and Lawson is that they see the EEC/EU a bit like some people see NATO - something with no reason to exist in a post-Cold War context.
> >
> >
>
> That's a good summation. Someone asked what he thought of the impact Brexit would have on the economy and he calmly said he was for a gradual, orderly withdrawal, continued close alignment on various things (hence his acceptance of the May offer), and as the world's 5th/6th economy that is over time doing a declining percentage of its trade with the EU the UK would be fine.
>
> He also added that he had a second home in Greece - alright for some - and has seen at first hand the impact being stuck in the euro has had on a country and its people.
Being in the EU and being a member of the Euro are two different propositions economically. You can support the former but be opposed to the latter. I can see that being in the Euro unless you happen to be Germany is a bad thing but the UK has never been in the Euro and I doubt will ever be in it...
> > @nico67 said:
> > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far.
> >
> > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow .
> >
> > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
>
> You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
Of course Brexit varies in importance but there’s enough Labour Remainers who could cause huge problems for the party.
Much has been made of the Opinium poll but the Comres is a shocker for Labour . The clear movement is from Labour to Lib Dems .
Make no mistake if Corbyn helps to facilitate Brexit he is in big trouble . The Lib Dem broken promise on student fees will be nothing compared to if Corbyn helps to bail out the Tories .
> Congratutlations to Scrapheap for winning the PB Fantasy football, and to TSE for saving me from the booby prize!
>
> An omen for the CL final?
We can but hope.
> > @KentRising said:
> > > @williamglenn said:
> > > > @KentRising said:
> > > >
> > > > I went to a David Owen book event this very day in fact. He explained that he's been Eurosceptic since the late 1980s and definitely since Maastricht. He called for a UK referendum on the Lisborn Treaty which, if I recall, Blair did promise at one stage in 2003/04 but dropped it after his GE win in 2005.
> > > >
> > >
> > > My impression of people like Owen and Lawson is that they see the EEC/EU a bit like some people see NATO - something with no reason to exist in a post-Cold War context.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > That's a good summation. Someone asked what he thought of the impact Brexit would have on the economy and he calmly said he was for a gradual, orderly withdrawal, continued close alignment on various things (hence his acceptance of the May offer), and as the world's 5th/6th economy that is over time doing a declining percentage of its trade with the EU the UK would be fine.
> >
> > He also added that he had a second home in Greece - alright for some - and has seen at first hand the impact being stuck in the euro has had on a country and its people.
>
> Being in the EU and being a member of the Euro are two different propositions economically. You can support the former but be opposed to the latter. I can see that being in the Euro unless you happen to be Germany is a bad thing but the UK has never been in the Euro and I doubt will ever be in it...
That is true and my quick summary of what he said should not be understood to mean he was conflating the two.
As the current front runner by some distance, he doesn’t have much to gain from such a suggestion, and as you point out, has been burned before.
https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1127555622881439745
> > @justin124 said:
> > > @nico67 said:
> > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far.
> > >
> > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow .
> > >
> > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
> >
> > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
>
> Of course Brexit varies in importance but there’s enough Labour Remainers who could cause huge problems for the party.
>
> Much has been made of the Opinium poll but the Comres is a shocker for Labour . The clear movement is from Labour to Lib Dems .
>
> Make no mistake if Corbyn helps to facilitate Brexit he is in big trouble . The Lib Dem broken promise on student fees will be nothing compared to if Corbyn helps to bail out the Tories .
>
Not if they are perceived to have bowed to him. Leaving the EU was implied by the 2017 Manifesto.
Famous last words...
There has to be a great answer to the 'one heart beat away' argument when the candidate is Biden's age.
I have punted Biden-Buttigieg many times on here before. Has a better ring to it. But Harris works.
> > @nico67 said:
>
> > > @justin124 said:
>
> > > > @nico67 said:
>
> > > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow .
>
> > > >
>
> > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
>
> > >
>
> > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
>
> >
>
> > Of course Brexit varies in importance but there’s enough Labour Remainers who could cause huge problems for the party.
>
> >
>
> > Much has been made of the Opinium poll but the Comres is a shocker for Labour . The clear movement is from Labour to Lib Dems .
>
> >
>
> > Make no mistake if Corbyn helps to facilitate Brexit he is in big trouble . The Lib Dem broken promise on student fees will be nothing compared to if Corbyn helps to bail out the Tories .
>
> >
>
>
>
> Not if they are perceived to have bowed to him.
>
> The Tory media and Tory supporters and plenty of Tory MPs think they have done that just by talking to him, it doesn't seem to have made selling a deal to Lab MPs go any smoother, because it doesn't deliver what they want and never will. And if it doesn't persuade them to accept it, and thus not inclined to punish him, I fail to see why it would persuade Labour voters generally even if May literally kowtowed before him on the steps of No.10.
But that rather assumes that Brexit is an overriding concern for most Labour voters. I don't think it is!
> But that rather assumes that Brexit is an overriding concern for most Labour voters. I don't think it is!
>
> It assumes nothing of the kind. It assumes that it is an issue of some concern for them, not necessarily the overriding concern. Going against their view, and being unable to sell a Tory capitulation even if it is the truth, would surely have an effect. Not as big as some think, perhaps, but that's a question of degree.
The EU Remainer obsessives are likely to have already switched to the LD or CUK.From here on , I suspect the Labour vote is as likely to recover a bit by 23rd May as to decline further.
> > @kle4 said:
> > > @nico67 said:
> >
> > > > @justin124 said:
> >
> > > > > @nico67 said:
> >
> > > > > Keir Starmer interview in the Guardian . He sounds pretty underwhelmed by the talks so far.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Corbyn needs to realize if Starmer quits as Brexit Secretary Remainers stampede for the exit will follow .
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > He is seen as the champion of a second vote . Without him Labour Remain voters will know the game is up .
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > You appear to have an exaggerated view as to how salient the issue is to Labour voters. For the vast majority of Labour Remainers, other issues override Brexit. That is clearly not true of yourself.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Of course Brexit varies in importance but there’s enough Labour Remainers who could cause huge problems for the party.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Much has been made of the Opinium poll but the Comres is a shocker for Labour . The clear movement is from Labour to Lib Dems .
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Make no mistake if Corbyn helps to facilitate Brexit he is in big trouble . The Lib Dem broken promise on student fees will be nothing compared to if Corbyn helps to bail out the Tories .
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Not if they are perceived to have bowed to him.
> >
> > The Tory media and Tory supporters and plenty of Tory MPs think they have done that just by talking to him, it doesn't seem to have made selling a deal to Lab MPs go any smoother, because it doesn't deliver what they want and never will. And if it doesn't persuade them to accept it, and thus not inclined to punish him, I fail to see why it would persuade Labour voters generally even if May literally kowtowed before him on the steps of No.10.
>
> But that rather assumes that Brexit is an overriding concern for most Labour voters. I don't think it is!
It isn't for this one. Most of the issues I feel need addressing could be done inside or outside the EU. Part of the reason I voted Remain. But it may be I am in a minority.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">European Election Voting Intention:
BXP: 34% (+4)
LAB: 16% (-5)
LDM: 15% (+5)
GRN: 11% (+2)
CON: 10% (-3)
CHUK: 5% (-4)
Via <a href="https://twitter.com/YouGov?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@YouGov<;/a>, 8-9 May.
Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.</p>— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) <a href="https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1127720320067149825?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">May 12, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
> The race for 2nd place is beginning to get pretty close...
>
> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">European Election Voting Intention:
BXP: 34% (+4)
LAB: 16% (-5)
LDM: 15% (+5)
GRN: 11% (+2)
CON: 10% (-3)
CHUK: 5% (-4)
Via <a href="https://twitter.com/YouGov?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@YouGov<;/a>, 8-9 May.
Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.</p>— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) <a href="https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1127720320067149825?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">May 12, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
+++++
That is STUPENDOUS. And I am a Remainer.
Revolution is exciting.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Westminster voting intention:
CON: 24% (-5)
LAB: 24% (-5)
BREX: 18% (+3)
LDEM: 16% (+3)
GRN: 7% (+2)
via <a href="https://twitter.com/YouGov?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@YouGov<;/a>
Chgs. w/ 30 Apr</p>— Britain Elects (@britainelects) <a href="https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1127723398669393920?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">May 12, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1127723220352819200?s=21
> The race for 2nd place is beginning to get pretty close...
>
> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">European Election Voting Intention:
BXP: 34% (+4)
LAB: 16% (-5)
LDM: 15% (+5)
GRN: 11% (+2)
CON: 10% (-3)
CHUK: 5% (-4)
Via <a href="https://twitter.com/YouGov?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@YouGov<;/a>, 8-9 May.
Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.</p>— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) <a href="https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1127720320067149825?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">May 12, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
BAXTERED, that result produces this:
Labour: 90 (yes)
Tories: 0 (yes)
Libs: 24
SNP: 56
Brexit Party: 456
> > @IanB2 said:
> > > @geoffw said:
> > > RIP Brian Walden as well, a heavyweight in his own right and despite being a former Labour MP in his latter years a convinced Brexiteer
> > >
> > > Labour were always more Eurosceptic than the Tories back then.
> > >
> > > Partly because the most pro EEC figures like Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams defected to the SDP, the CUK of its day
> > >
> > > David Owen was/is Eurosceptic
> > > and also Peter Shore and Tony Benn inter alia.
> >
> > If he was in the 1980s, he kept quiet about it. Being pro-EU was a key driving force for the SDP split.
>
> Owen was very pro-EU in the 1980s - as was Lawson. Only in recent years have they become Eurosceptics.
Lawson's views were always quite nuanced. It's well worth reading his book The View From Number Eleven.
> Con and Lab plummeting in Westminster polling.
>
> https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1127723220352819200?s=21
++++
As predicted by some of us, Labour are now taking the heavy punches, because the Tories are knocked unconscious.
This is Sindyref, the aftermath, times a million. No one wants T May's lies, no one wants Corbyn's Stalinism.
If Farage is canny (and reins in his madder candidates) he could win a General Election. He is Trump, with less money, but smarter.
> > @justin124 said:
> > > @IanB2 said:
> > > > @geoffw said:
> > > > RIP Brian Walden as well, a heavyweight in his own right and despite being a former Labour MP in his latter years a convinced Brexiteer
> > > >
> > > > Labour were always more Eurosceptic than the Tories back then.
> > > >
> > > > Partly because the most pro EEC figures like Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams defected to the SDP, the CUK of its day
> > > >
> > > > David Owen was/is Eurosceptic
> > > > and also Peter Shore and Tony Benn inter alia.
> > >
> > > If he was in the 1980s, he kept quiet about it. Being pro-EU was a key driving force for the SDP split.
> >
> > Owen was very pro-EU in the 1980s - as was Lawson. Only in recent years have they become Eurosceptics.
>
> Lawson's views were always quite nuanced. It's well worth reading his book The View From Number Eleven.
Nuance, like his chubby cuddliness, seems to have deserted Lawson.
> I said that Farage's party, after hunting down the Tories, would come for Labour. And so it has proved.
You did. And I demurred. You seem to have been on the money, whilst I wasn't.
Well I'll go to't foot of our stairs.
All changed, utterly.
> The race for 2nd place is beginning to get pretty close...
>
>
>
> European Election Voting Intention:
>
>
>
> BXP: 34% (+4)
>
> LAB: 16% (-5)
>
> LDM: 15% (+5)
>
> GRN: 11% (+2)
>
> CON: 10% (-3)
>
> CHUK: 5% (-4)
>
>
>
> Via @YouGov, 8-9 May.
>
> Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) May 12, 2019
>
> Lord God above, that's...just weird. WTF? I mean, what?
++++
It's not weird. It's Scotland after Sindyref. Entirely predictable. A very large chunk of Brits feel cheated of their democratic rights, and, moreover, the traditional parties look malignant, inept, divided and mendacious. Of course, in the absence of Brexit, the Brexit rebels will benefit, hugely. I suspect they are now getting votes from people who don't even want Brexit.
These voters just want to give the mainstream politicians, Labour or Conservative, an absolute shoeing.
> > @williamglenn said:
> > Con and Lab plummeting in Westminster polling.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1127723220352819200?s=21
>
> ++++
>
> As predicted by some of us, Labour are now taking the heavy punches, because the Tories are knocked unconscious.
>
> This is Sindyref, the aftermath, times a million. No one wants T May's lies, no one wants Corbyn's Stalinism.
>
> If Farage is canny (and reins in his madder candidates) he could win a General Election. He is Trump, with less money, but smarter.
Hang on! They’ve lost 10% and Farage has only gained 3% of it.
> > @Saltire said:
> > The race for 2nd place is beginning to get pretty close...
> >
> > <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">European Election Voting Intention:
BXP: 34% (+4)
LAB: 16% (-5)
LDM: 15% (+5)
GRN: 11% (+2)
CON: 10% (-3)
CHUK: 5% (-4)
Via <a href="https://twitter.com/YouGov?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@YouGov<;/a>, 8-9 May.
Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.</p>— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) <a href="https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1127720320067149825?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">May 12, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
>
> BAXTERED, that result produces this:
>
> Labour: 90 (yes)
> Tories: 0 (yes)
> Libs: 24
> SNP: 56
> Brexit Party: 456
Although Baxtered, the WVI produces this
Con 274
Lab. 264
LD. 25
SNP. 56
BP. 8.
Which shows.
1) FPTP is utterly broken.
2) Small changes make HUGE differences.
3) No one knows anymore... Although recent form shows you know better than me...
> > @Byronic said:
> > > @williamglenn said:
> > > Con and Lab plummeting in Westminster polling.
> > >
> > > https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1127723220352819200?s=21
> >
> > ++++
> >
> > As predicted by some of us, Labour are now taking the heavy punches, because the Tories are knocked unconscious.
> >
> > This is Sindyref, the aftermath, times a million. No one wants T May's lies, no one wants Corbyn's Stalinism.
> >
> > If Farage is canny (and reins in his madder candidates) he could win a General Election. He is Trump, with less money, but smarter.
>
> Hang on! They’ve lost 10% and Farage has only gained 3% of it. <
++++++
This is a brand new party and they are already on 18% - for a General Election, not the euros. If the CUKS had managed this, Remainers like you and I would be singing from the rooftops.
Let's face it, the CUKS have failed, miserably. Remain is divided but Leave have a credible leader and a plausible new movement. As a result the Hard Leave Party is racing to victory in the euros, and after that? - who knows.
Unprecedented times,
> > @Saltire said:
> > The race for 2nd place is beginning to get pretty close...
> >
> > <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">European Election Voting Intention:
BXP: 34% (+4)
LAB: 16% (-5)
LDM: 15% (+5)
GRN: 11% (+2)
CON: 10% (-3)
CHUK: 5% (-4)
Via <a href="https://twitter.com/YouGov?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@YouGov<;/a>, 8-9 May.
Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.</p>— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) <a href="https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1127720320067149825?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">May 12, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
>
>
> +++++
>
> That is STUPENDOUS. And I am a Remainer.
>
> Revolution is exciting.
Its also called proportional representation - people actually voting for a party they want (Brexit, Green, LD) than for the party they hate the least out of Labour and Tory. A bit like June 2016 pretty much every vote counts and there are no safe seats (bar possibly the NE region).
Unfortunately we revert back to first past the post in England - bar the London Assembly elections next year - and if we do leave the EU it may be the last time voters in England outside London get this opportunity!
Looking at the latest GE poll you could in theory by a quirk of votes get a Labour majority government on less than 25% of the vote!
As for campaigning I live in a pretty remain area of London - and despite the fact the election is 10 days away and postal votes have now gone out the only leaflet I have had is from the Brexit party. I find that extraordinary.
> > @Byronic said:
> > > @Saltire said:
> > > The race for 2nd place is beginning to get pretty close...
> > >
> > > <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">European Election Voting Intention:
BXP: 34% (+4)
LAB: 16% (-5)
LDM: 15% (+5)
GRN: 11% (+2)
CON: 10% (-3)
CHUK: 5% (-4)
Via <a href="https://twitter.com/YouGov?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@YouGov<;/a>, 8-9 May.
Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.</p>— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) <a href="https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1127720320067149825?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">May 12, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
> >
> > BAXTERED, that result produces this:
> >
> > Labour: 90 (yes)
> > Tories: 0 (yes)
> > Libs: 24
> > SNP: 56
> > Brexit Party: 456
>
> Although Baxtered, the WVI produces this
> Con 274
> Lab. 264
> LD. 25
> SNP. 56
> BP. 8.
> Which shows.
> 1) FPTP is utterly broken.
> 2) Small changes make HUGE differences.
> 3) No one knows anymore... Although recent form shows you know better than me... <
++++
I think we can agree on this: with changes on this scale, traditional electoral predictions are useless (cf Scotland after indyref) and all assumptions must be challenged.
This is why attacks of Farage's statements about various policy issues make no difference. People don't care about them because they not important to the task at hand. They think that if they vote for the Brexit party we will get Brexit, with or without a deal, and then we can then forget about the Brexit party and move on.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Voters don't think Change UK and the Brexit Party will be here to stay: <a href="https://t.co/0opPs1QPxT">https://t.co/0opPs1QPxT</a>;
(£) <a href="https://t.co/Qxtxvc4xtH">pic.twitter.com/Qxtxvc4xtH</a></p>— Britain Elects (@britainelects) <a href="https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1127724418740912129?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">May 12, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
And that is surely going to be that TMay is at long last going to get forced out after the Euros (if she doesn't resign the 1922 will ultimately feel forced to change the rules) and she will get replaced by a Brexiteer.
Boris seems most likely - because Con Party members are going to want someone they know and are confident will be able to perform on TV.
> What matters most is the actual impact of these polls.
>
> And that is surely going to be that TMay is at long last going to get forced out after tbe Euros (if she doesn't resign the 1922 will ultimately feel forced to change teb rules) and she will get replaced by a Brexiteer.
>
> Boris seems most likely - becuase Con Party members are going to want someone they know and are confident will be able to perform on TV.
++++
Agreed. She will go now. If she doesn't they will *metaphorically* assassinate her. No Tory leader can sustain a poll rating of TEN PERCENT. She has failed in every way possible, and then some.
It will probably be Boris. Or Javid.
> > @Byronic said:
> > > @Saltire said:
> > > The race for 2nd place is beginning to get pretty close...
> > >
> > > <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">European Election Voting Intention:
BXP: 34% (+4)
LAB: 16% (-5)
LDM: 15% (+5)
GRN: 11% (+2)
CON: 10% (-3)
CHUK: 5% (-4)
Via <a href="https://twitter.com/YouGov?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@YouGov<;/a>, 8-9 May.
Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.</p>— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) <a href="https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1127720320067149825?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">May 12, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
> >
> >
> > +++++
> >
> > That is STUPENDOUS. And I am a Remainer.
> >
> > Revolution is exciting.
>
> Its also called proportional representation - people actually voting for a party they want (Brexit, Green, LD) than for the party they hate the least out of Labour and Tory. A bit like June 2016 pretty much every vote counts and there are no safe seats (bar possibly the NE region).
>
> Unfortunately we revert back to first past the post in England - bar the London Assembly elections next year - and if we do leave the EU it may be the last time voters in England outside London get this opportunity!
>
> Looking at the latest GE poll you could in theory by a quirk of votes get a Labour majority government on less than 25% of the vote!
>
> As for campaigning I live in a pretty remain area of London - and despite the fact the election is 10 days away and postal votes have now gone out the only leaflet I have had is from the Brexit party. I find that extraordinary.
Only two parties are taking it seriously (in contrast I have had only a LD leaflet). No surprise they are the ones hoovering up.