> @Gardenwalker said: > > @Gardenwalker said: > > > > @Gardenwalker said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was praying for someone - perhaps Rudd - to peer at him puzzlingly for a moment and ask him sincerely why he looks like a frog. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were far too polite. If the centrists want to beat Farage they need to find their inner mongrel. > > > > > > > > > > > > Calling him names is the solution? > > > > > > No, but it would be funny. > > > > No it would have been petty, and I doubt Rudd would have won any support by doing so. What has his appearance got to do with anything? > > His opponents make the offence of taking him seriously. But he will lie and lie without hesitation. > > He needs the piss taken out of him.
Satirists can do that. Politicians should debate each others policies, not why they look like a particular animal.
Plugging the ComRes figures into Electoral Calculus gives Lab 316 Con 179 SNP 55 Brexit 49 LibDem 28 Others 23. If Labour can keep 5 points ahead they'll easily be the largest party if there's a GE this year.
This despite the endless torrents of slurry that are being poured at Corbyn's door. A combination of a Bernie effect and a TINA effect on the Left is keeping the Left-wing base on side.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > > > Talk me through the process and the timetable for that. > > It is possible to do things quickly. > > In fact, it is not really difficult to fail to do something. > > It is not like the EU had to come up with a functioning time machine, or provide a unified field theory, or solve the problems of world hunger. > > It is pretty simple to fail to do something. You simply agree not to do it. >
I’m afraid I’m going to need more precision than that. Talk me through step by step how the rules could be changed, who needs to agree and the timetable you propose.
> @RobD said: > > Like the law that said the UK would leave after two years? Funny how these things can be changed when they really want them to.
Rob, you can be obtuse sometimes. The extendability of Article 50 was there in black and white in the treaty and the UK government requested and agreed an extension.
> > Talk me through the process and the timetable for that.
>
> It is possible to do things quickly.
>
> In fact, it is not really difficult to fail to do something.
>
> It is not like the EU had to come up with a functioning time machine, or provide a unified field theory, or solve the problems of world hunger.
>
> It is pretty simple to fail to do something. You simply agree not to do it.
>
I’m afraid I’m going to need more precision than that. Talk me through step by step how the rules could be changed, who needs to agree and the timetable you propose.
You know how to get the party started on a Saturday night Al!
> > His opponents make the offence of taking him seriously. But he will lie and lie without hesitation. > > He needs the piss taken out of him. <
+++++
Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know.
> @Sean_F said: > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > @Gardenwalker said: > > > Again, political meltdown was all baked into Brexit. We smug Remainers predicted this, though not the precise configuration of course. > > > > > > May meanwhile is reaping what she sowed. > > > By overcompensating to the ERGers, she allowed the Ovenden window to push hard right. “No Deal is better than a Bad Deal”, indeed. She created ERG’s rhetoric for them. > > > > > > By shilly-shallying and obfuscating, she has riled the righteous anger of mass gammon. And she has repeatedly lied to us all: Brexiter and Remainer alike. > > > > > > That she has finagled one of the lesser damaging Brexits, and that her enemies are deceivers and braggarts to a man, is besides the point. > > > > > > Brexit: Shit. > > > May: Awful. > > > > Nah. This is all great. We need more of this chaos not less. > > It's solid entertainment.
Indeed. As Gardenwalker says, many of us predicted the political meltdown, and watching it being played out is morbidly fascinating and beats any TV drama. It's just a shame that so many people, and indeed the country as a whole, are having to suffer to provide this riveting entertainment.
> @isam said: > > @YBarddCwsc said: > > > > > > > > Talk me through the process and the timetable for that. > > > > > > It is possible to do things quickly. > > > > > > In fact, it is not really difficult to fail to do something. > > > > > > It is not like the EU had to come up with a functioning time machine, or provide a unified field theory, or solve the problems of world hunger. > > > > > > It is pretty simple to fail to do something. You simply agree not to do it. > > > > > > > I’m afraid I’m going to need more precision than that. Talk me through step by step how the rules could be changed, who needs to agree and the timetable you propose. > > You know how to get the party started on a Saturday night Al!
Well if someone is going to blow smoke out of his arse about how the rules can be changed just like that and build a whole thesis of paranoic nonsense from it, I’m going to be inspecting the building blocks closely.
> @Jonathan said: > > @dixiedean said: > > > @Jonathan said: > > > > @Byronic said: > > > > > @rottenborough said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arguably, his new message (broken politics, we voted 'out' why are we still in etc etc), is bigger than the man. < > > > > > > > > +++++ > > > > > > > > Yep. A failed or "betrayed" Brexit - whether this actually happened or not - is the PERFECT medium wherein a protest party can thrive, and possibly triumph. > > > > > > > > Add in a general mood of mutinous populism across the West, and, well, bingo. > > > > > > > > It could happen. Prime Minister Farage is no more unlikely than President Trump. > > > > > > > > > > U.K. FPTP makes it difficult. Trump had the GOP behind him > > > > Technically it doesn't. You need at least 45%+ to become POTUS. > > c 35% to be PM with a split opposition. Blair (2005). > > Name the last Prime Minister or President not backed at an election by one of the main established parties.
Any Party getting 35% of the vote would, by definition, be a major Party. Oh, and Macron. And Italy. Both very close to us. And not riven by Brexit. Why not here, then?
All the seat predictions based on these latest polls...how believable are they? Do they use current models and if so are the current models - which are I presume basically based on 2-and-a-bit-party politics for the most part (plus SNP factor for Scotland) - robust enough to generate meaningful results for effectively 4 parties (Lab/Con/Brex/LibD) on increasingly equivalent vote shares, not even accounting for the other smaller parties?
We can certainly plug the poll numbers into the current models and generate seat forecasts, but do we need new models for those polls to really be turned into meaningful seat forecasts? Am I over-thinking this (probably)?!
> > Calling him names is the solution? > > > > > > No, but it would be funny. > > > > No it would have been petty, and I doubt Rudd would have won any support by doing so. What has his appearance got to do with anything? > > Trump would have called him 'Kiki'. > > Or 'Toad' <
++++++
Remember when Soubry said, on live TV, that Farage looked like "someone has stuck a finger up his arse, and he likes it".
Well, now Anna Soubry, the tearful Remainer, is a member of a Remainer party polling somewhere between 3 and 6%, and falling, Farage is leading a Brexit party polling around 25-28%, and rising.
So that name-calling shit worked out well, didn't it?
> I’m afraid I’m going to need more precision than that. Talk me through step by step how the rules could be changed, who needs to agree and the timetable you propose.
--
I am very familiar with the EU, because I have been the recipient of multi-million pound EU grants.
So, I do know that it is completely contrary to the EU's mind to be able to do anything quickly or flexibly or sensibly.
We must put our lawyerly hands together, and pursing our lips sadly, we must regretfully say that what YBarddCwsc is requesting is not within the bounds of practical policy.
And how right the EU is. Much better to waste money running meaningless elections that will enable a rogue and charlatan to top the poll.
Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know.
Lies should be called out, not taken seriously.
I don’t share your cynicism about “ALL POLITICIANS”.
Farage is a common-garden populist and demagogue, and he should be treated as such by his opponents and by any thinking journalist.
> @Gardenwalker said: > Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know. > > Lies should be called out, not taken seriously. > > I don’t share your cynicism about “ALL POLITICIANS”. > > Farage is a common-garden populist and demagogue, and he should be treated as such by his opponents and by any thinking journalist.
> No it would have been petty, and I doubt Rudd would have won any support by doing so. What has his appearance got to do with anything?
>
> Trump would have called him 'Kiki'.
>
> Or 'Toad' <
++++++
Remember when Soubry said, on live TV, that Farage looked like "someone has stuck a finger up his arse, and he likes it".
Well, now Anna Soubry, the tearful Remainer, is a member of a Remainer party polling somewhere between 3 and 6%, and falling, Farage is leading a Brexit party polling around 25-28%, and rising.
So that name-calling shit worked out well, didn't it?
One of the best examples of people being prepared to look the other way when it suits them. Imagine the outrage if the roles were reversed
> Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know.
>
> Lies should be called out, not taken seriously.
>
> I don’t share your cynicism about “ALL POLITICIANS”.
>
> Farage is a common-garden populist and demagogue, and he should be treated as such by his opponents and by any thinking journalist.
> @Floater said: > > @Gardenwalker said: > > Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know. > > > > Lies should be called out, not taken seriously. > > > > I don’t share your cynicism about “ALL POLITICIANS”. > > > > Farage is a common-garden populist and demagogue, and he should be treated as such by his opponents and by any thinking journalist. > > Corbyn is far, far worse
Your rampant hypocrisy is blinding you. They are equally malign.
> @dixiedean said: > > @Jonathan said: > > > @dixiedean said: > > > > @Jonathan said: > > > > > @Byronic said: > > > > > > @rottenborough said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arguably, his new message (broken politics, we voted 'out' why are we still in etc etc), is bigger than the man. < > > > > > > > > > > +++++ > > > > > > > > > > Yep. A failed or "betrayed" Brexit - whether this actually happened or not - is the PERFECT medium wherein a protest party can thrive, and possibly triumph. > > > > > > > > > > Add in a general mood of mutinous populism across the West, and, well, bingo. > > > > > > > > > > It could happen. Prime Minister Farage is no more unlikely than President Trump. > > > > > > > > > > > > > U.K. FPTP makes it difficult. Trump had the GOP behind him > > > > > > Technically it doesn't. You need at least 45%+ to become POTUS. > > > c 35% to be PM with a split opposition. Blair (2005). > > > > Name the last Prime Minister or President not backed at an election by one of the main established parties. > > Any Party getting 35% of the vote would, by definition, be a major Party. > Oh, and Macron. And Italy. > Both very close to us. And not riven by Brexit. > Why not here, then?
It’s easier to breakthrough when you have primaries and a run-off system than defeat 326 incumbent MPs. Not impossible, but much harder. The SNP are your best model, but they had laid the groundwork at Holyrood.
> @Gardenwalker said: > Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know. > > Lies should be called out, not taken seriously. > > I don’t share your cynicism about “ALL POLITICIANS”. > > Farage is a common-garden populist and demagogue, and he should be treated as such by his opponents and by any thinking journalist.<
+++++
You are utterly wrong and very stupid. I came on this site as a Remainer, albeit an unkeen Remainer, and this is the level of thinking amongst Remainers?
"Call Farage a frog on TV and all will be well"
?
FFS, get a grip. Remain deserves to die, if this is your level of analysis.
> @Jonathan said: > History suggests that populists like Farage are hard to shift before they have wrecked damage on the country. > > The only strategy is for old foes to bury the hatchet on old disputes, unite and fight hard.
History also shows us socialists are exactly the same.
> @rottenborough said: > Plugging the ComRes figures into Electoral Calculus gives Lab 316 Con 179 SNP 55 Brexit 49 LibDem 28 Others 23. If Labour can keep 5 points ahead they'll easily be the largest party if there's a GE this year. > > > > This despite the endless torrents of slurry that are being poured at Corbyn's door. A combination of a Bernie effect and a TINA effect on the Left is keeping the Left-wing base on side. > > I expected a GE this year. Indeed, bet on one. > > No longer.
I hear you, but I still think an early GE has surely got to be the final act of this Brexit play. Let's say May goes next month and Boris becomes leader. Some of the Faragists will come back to the Tories, but some more of their MPs will defect to the Tiggers and a VoNC will finally succeed. Anyway, leading the party and the government in the prevailing conditions would be one humiliation after another.
> Plugging the ComRes figures into Electoral Calculus gives Lab 316 Con 179 SNP 55 Brexit 49 LibDem 28 Others 23. If Labour can keep 5 points ahead they'll easily be the largest party if there's a GE this year.
>
>
>
> This despite the endless torrents of slurry that are being poured at Corbyn's door. A combination of a Bernie effect and a TINA effect on the Left is keeping the Left-wing base on side.
>
> I expected a GE this year. Indeed, bet on one.
>
> No longer.
I hear you, but I still think an early GE has surely got to be the final act of this Brexit play. Let's say May goes next month and Boris becomes leader. Some of the Faragists will come back to the Tories, but some more of their MPs will defect to the Tiggers and a VoNC will finally succeed. Anyway, leading the party and the government in the prevailing conditions would be one humiliation after another.
Yep. Good points. But by looks of things Boris will not be leader until October.
Is he really going to cut and run with a GE before Xmas?
> Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know.
>
> Lies should be called out, not taken seriously.
>
> I don’t share your cynicism about “ALL POLITICIANS”.
>
> Farage is a common-garden populist and demagogue, and he should be treated as such by his opponents and by any thinking journalist.<
+++++
You are utterly wrong and very stupid. I came on this site as a Remainer, albeit an unkeen Remainer, and this is the level of thinking amongst Remainers?
"Call Farage a frog on TV and all will be well"
?
FFS, get a grip. Remain deserves to die, if this is your level of analysis.
FFS, yourself. I am not suggesting that calling Farage a frog means “all will be well”.
I merely noted it would be funny, and more seriously, suggest that piss-taking might be an effective technique where rational debate and factchecking seems to be failing.
From Wikipedia: Toad is intelligent, creative and resourceful; however, he is also narcissistic, self-centred almost to the point of sociopathy, and completely lacking in even the most basic common sense. His reckless interest in motor cars leads to an episode in which he steals a car and drives it recklessly. The result of that is a twenty-year prison sentence, but he escapes, dressed as a washer woman.
> @Byronic said: > > Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know.
I agree with this. The way to beat Farage is based on a solid political strategy to disarm his arguments. He's used to dealing with politicians who play into his hands by tacitly agreeing with him about not liking the EU, while disagreeing with him on things that are popular with the public.
> "Call Farage a frog on TV and all will be well" > > ? > > FFS, get a grip. Remain deserves to die, if this is your level of analysis.
I was going to make the same point.
Farage may be a rogue and a charlatan.
But, the failure of Remain is even more astonishing.
There is no substantial political figure fighting for Remain (except possibly Sturgeon).
And the crass level of intellectual argument ("he looks like a Frog" or "Bollocks to Brexit" or "they're all xenophobes") of many Remainers is the most astonishing of all.
> @solarflare said: > Random question. > > All the seat predictions based on these latest polls...how believable are they? Do they use current models and if so are the current models - which are I presume basically based on 2-and-a-bit-party politics for the most part (plus SNP factor for Scotland) - robust enough to generate meaningful results for effectively 4 parties (Lab/Con/Brex/LibD) on increasingly equivalent vote shares, not even accounting for the other smaller parties? > > We can certainly plug the poll numbers into the current models and generate seat forecasts, but do we need new models for those polls to really be turned into meaningful seat forecasts? Am I over-thinking this (probably)?!
Electoral Calculus has been updated to take account of TBP and CUK. Of course it can't take account of them very precisely - you can take the predictions for individual seats with a pinch of salt - but it gives a fair reflection of the overall picture, based on the regional/demographic biases of the various parties.
> @isam said: > The country is splintering before our eyes. > > That’s what happens when politicians refuse to enact a vote they told us was a once in a generation public choice that MPs wouldn’t override
Or when populists offer the moon on a stick and shout betrayal at people trying to figure out how to implement it.
Whoever is Farage's PR/video company they are bloody good.
Who are they? And who is doing all the hard work behind the scenes? It must be more than just Farage - so who else is involved?
I was about to post exactly that. Bannon? And is there a Cambridge Analytica style operation in the background?
But as you’ve beaten me to it, I’ll simply observe that Liz Truss’s new hairstyle is clearly intended to make her look like Thatcher but ends up making her look like Andrea Leadsom.
Deary me, someone produced a fairly decent well targeted ppb and it must be the result of alt-right American devilry! Leave.EU (who I presume use the same agency) have always had a very strong social media game and produced good quality collateral. It's a total myth that Leave's victory had anything to do with the utterly inept Vote Leave campaign.
> @dixiedean said: > > @nico67 said: > > Amazing coverage , it’s like the Lib Dems poll surge completely ignored by the papers . > > > > And it’s just one big wank job over the BP . And Labour shedding votes to the Lib Dems because of their fence sitting gets zero coverage . > > The media seems incapable of reporting more than one aspect of a story at once. > Witness the last GE. So fixated were they on Leavers moving to the Tories, they were flabbergasted when it transpired Remainers had moved to Labour as well. > 2 THINGS happening at the SAME TIME!!!? > Labour needed to come off the fence for Remain for these Euros. Then we'd have had a Labour v Farage battle. As it is, back come the LD's. Up off the canvas, and swinging again. > Result. Farage wins is the story. > Take a bow Tories, Remainers, Corbynites. Good job!
Bizarely Corbyn and his cronies will read into the polls that Labour needs to become more Leave when they’re losing votes to the Lib Dems ! The Labour drop in Comres is clearly going to second vote parties .
> @Jonathan said: > > @dixiedean said: > > > @Jonathan said: > > > > @dixiedean said: > > > > > @Jonathan said: > > > > > > @Byronic said: > > > > > > > @rottenborough said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arguably, his new message (broken politics, we voted 'out' why are we still in etc etc), is bigger than the man. < > > > > > > > > > > > > +++++ > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep. A failed or "betrayed" Brexit - whether this actually happened or not - is the PERFECT medium wherein a protest party can thrive, and possibly triumph. > > > > > > > > > > > > Add in a general mood of mutinous populism across the West, and, well, bingo. > > > > > > > > > > > > It could happen. Prime Minister Farage is no more unlikely than President Trump. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > U.K. FPTP makes it difficult. Trump had the GOP behind him > > > > > > > > Technically it doesn't. You need at least 45%+ to become POTUS. > > > > c 35% to be PM with a split opposition. Blair (2005). > > > > > > Name the last Prime Minister or President not backed at an election by one of the main established parties. > > > > Any Party getting 35% of the vote would, by definition, be a major Party. > > Oh, and Macron. And Italy. > > Both very close to us. And not riven by Brexit. > > Why not here, then? > > It’s easier to breakthrough when you have primaries and a run-off system than defeat 326 incumbent MPs. Not impossible, but much harder. The SNP are your best model, but they had laid the groundwork at Holyrood.
Yes it is harder. But I would reckon far from impossible. We live in febrile political times, and Farage as PM is not a prospect I am willing to write off.
> @Luckyguy1983 said: > https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1127257482865324032 > > > > > > Indeed. > > > > Whoever is Farage's PR/video company they are bloody good. > > Who are they? And who is doing all the hard work behind the scenes? It must be more than just Farage - so who else is involved? > > I was about to post exactly that. Bannon? And is there a Cambridge Analytica style operation in the background? > > But as you’ve beaten me to it, I’ll simply observe that Liz Truss’s new hairstyle is clearly intended to make her look like Thatcher but ends up making her look like Andrea Leadsom. > > Deary me, someone produced a fairly decent well targeted ppb and it must be the result of alt-right American devilry! Leave.EU (who I presume use the same agency) have always had a very strong social media game and produced good quality collateral. It's a total myth that Leave's victory had anything to do with the utterly inept Vote Leave campaign.
Brexit Party now just 7% of first place in 2 Westminster polls, ahead of the Tories in second with Comres and just 1% behind with Opinium and clearly in front with both pollsters for the European elections.
If we are still in the EU by the next general election a Farage premiership does not look so far fetched after all
> @dixiedean said: > > @Jonathan said: > > > @dixiedean said: > > > > @Jonathan said: > > > > > @Byronic said: > > > > > > @rottenborough said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arguably, his new message (broken politics, we voted 'out' why are we still in etc etc), is bigger than the man. < > > > > > > > > > > +++++ > > > > > > > > > > Yep. A failed or "betrayed" Brexit - whether this actually happened or not - is the PERFECT medium wherein a protest party can thrive, and possibly triumph. > > > > > > > > > > Add in a general mood of mutinous populism across the West, and, well, bingo. > > > > > > > > > > It could happen. Prime Minister Farage is no more unlikely than President Trump. > > > > > > > > > > > > > U.K. FPTP makes it difficult. Trump had the GOP behind him > > > > > > Technically it doesn't. You need at least 45%+ to become POTUS. > > > c 35% to be PM with a split opposition. Blair (2005). > > > > Name the last Prime Minister or President not backed at an election by one of the main established parties. > > Any Party getting 35% of the vote would, by definition, be a major Party. > Oh, and Macron. And Italy. > Both very close to us. And not riven by Brexit. > Why not here, then?
If Farage gets all his European elections voters to vote for him at a general election he could well become PM, on tonight's polling he has now ensured at least 2/3 of them are, he just needs to convince the remaining third
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > > "Call Farage a frog on TV and all will be well" > > > > ? > > > > FFS, get a grip. Remain deserves to die, if this is your level of analysis. > > I was going to make the same point. > > Farage may be a rogue and a charlatan. > > But, the failure of Remain is even more astonishing. > > There is no substantial political figure fighting for Remain (except possibly Sturgeon). > > And the crass level of intellectual argument ("he looks like a Frog" or "Bollocks to Brexit" or "they're all xenophobes") of many Remainers is the most astonishing of all.
Remain has not failed. The fact that we're still in the EU three years after the referendum is testament to that. There have been some (somewhat mystifying) missteps of late, but the direction of travel is still clear. In fact, for all its apparent success, the rise of the Brexit Party has not yet done anything to make Brexit closer to reality.
> Whoever is Farage's PR/video company they are bloody good.
>
> Who are they? And who is doing all the hard work behind the scenes? It must be more than just Farage - so who else is involved?
>
> I was about to post exactly that. Bannon? And is there a Cambridge Analytica style operation in the background?
>
> But as you’ve beaten me to it, I’ll simply observe that Liz Truss’s new hairstyle is clearly intended to make her look like Thatcher but ends up making her look like Andrea Leadsom.
>
> Deary me, someone produced a fairly decent well targeted ppb and it must be the result of alt-right American devilry! Leave.EU (who I presume use the same agency) have always had a very strong social media game and produced good quality collateral. It's a total myth that Leave's victory had anything to do with the utterly inept Vote Leave campaign.
> @HYUFD said: > > If Farage gets all his European elections voters to vote for him at a general election he could well become PM, on tonight's polling he has now ensured at least 2/3 of them are, he just needs to convince the remaining third
He got 27% in the last European elections on 4,376,635 votes, and kept 3,881,099 of them in the following General Election. He did not become PM.
> FFS, get a grip. Remain deserves to die, if this is your level of analysis.
I was going to make the same point.
Farage may be a rogue and a charlatan.
But, the failure of Remain is even more astonishing.
There is no substantial political figure fighting for Remain (except possibly Sturgeon).
And the crass level of intellectual argument ("he looks like a Frog" or "Bollocks to Brexit" or "they're all xenophobes") of many Remainers is the most astonishing of all.
They just sound like nerds who were bullied at school trying to act tough, totally tragic
> @Dadge said: > > Remain has not failed. The fact that we're still in the EU three years after the referendum is testament to that. There have been some (somewhat mystifying) missteps of late, but the direction of travel is still clear. In fact, for all its apparent success, the rise of the Brexit Party has not yet done anything to make Brexit closer to reality.
----
May I be the first to wish Remainers many years of similar success?
After Gardenwalker told me the key to it all was calling Farage out as an amphibian on live TV, I just wondered fleetingly whether Remain had lost it.
> @Byronic said: > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > @rottenborough said: > > > https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1127257482865324032 > > > > > > Indeed. > > > > > > Whoever is Farage's PR/video company they are bloody good. > > > > Nigel Farage himself caps the level of support. > > > ++++ > > > I'm not sure he does, any more. He has clearly reinvented himself. Sharp suits, softer tone. He could become the Alex Salmond of British politics. Hated by many, even a majority, but sufficiently popular with the rest to actually win a general election. > > Brexit has broken all the rules, just as Sindyref did before in Scotland.
The comparison with Alex Salmond, down to being Mr Toad, is apt.
The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards.
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
> @Luckyguy1983 said: > The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards.
They have some interesting MPs, unlike the Lib Dem’s today.
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
Astonishingly Opinium now has the Tory Party getting more votes from Remainers, 12%, than the 11% it gets from Leavers in the European Parliament elections with so many Leavers now voting Brexit Party. Which will please William Glenn if few Tory MPs bar the likes of Ken Clarke and Dominic Grieve and Justine Greening
> @Jonathan said: > > @Luckyguy1983 said: > > The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards. > > They have some interesting MPs, unlike the Lib Dem’s today.
Who may be replaced by actual Lib Dems at the next election (e.g., Wollaston's seat)
> @isam said: > > "Call Farage a frog on TV and all will be well" > > > > > > ? > > > > > > FFS, get a grip. Remain deserves to die, if this is your level of analysis. > > > > I was going to make the same point. > > > > Farage may be a rogue and a charlatan. > > > > But, the failure of Remain is even more astonishing. > > > > There is no substantial political figure fighting for Remain (except possibly Sturgeon). > > > > And the crass level of intellectual argument ("he looks like a Frog" or "Bollocks to Brexit" or "they're all xenophobes") of many Remainers is the most astonishing of all. > > They just sound like nerds who were bullied at school trying to act tough, totally tragic
No one is interested in reasonable argument any more.
> The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards.
They have some interesting MPs, unlike the Lib Dem’s today.
Interesting is a good word. Yes, they have themselves. How many of them are there now? If I were the Lib Dems I might be tempted just to give them an application form and tell them they were welcome to join like anyone else.
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
> @williamglenn said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > > If Farage gets all his European elections voters to vote for him at a general election he could well become PM, on tonight's polling he has now ensured at least 2/3 of them are, he just needs to convince the remaining third > > He got 27% in the last European elections on 4,376,635 votes, and kept 3,881,099 of them in the following General Election. He did not become PM.
He got 12% in the general election, less than half the 27% he got in the European Parliament elections. If Farage matched the 34% he is on in the European Parliament elections with Opinium he would lead Labour by 13% and the Tories and LDs by over 20% and almost certainly the Brexit Party would win a majority under FPTP
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
It is Leave MPs who have refused to honour the result. Ask them why they are doing so. If Leavers won’t honour the result why should those of us who aren’t do so?
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
Yep. One of the ironies of all this madness, is the Brexiteer purists are the ones who stopped us leaving a couple of months ago, thereby giving Farage a ticket to ride.
> @HYUFD said: > Brexit Party now just 7% of first place in 2 Westminster polls, ahead of the Tories in second with Comres and just 1% behind with Opinium and clearly in front with both pollsters for the European elections. > > If we are still in the EU by the next general election a Farage premiership does not look so far fetched after all
With electoral meltdown beckoning, it is unlikely that May will still be in place in a month's time.
There is still the potential for the Conservatives to bounce back to poll around the mid 30s and possibly more with an unequivocal Brexiteer as leader, even with the Brexit Party polling in low double figures. If they can act quickly to depose May, the other message from these polls regarding fracturing of the Labour vote should still give some grounds for Conservative optimism.
However, the longer that May is allowed to equivocate, the harder it is going to be to put the Brexit Party genie back in the bottle. It seems to be gathering momentum by the day and triumphs at the Euros and Peterborough will solidify their polling further.
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
It is Leave MPs who have refused to honour the result. Ask them why they are doing so. If Leavers won’t honour the result why should those of us who aren’t do do?
Because it is the right thing to do? Whether anyone else behaves well is neither here nor there.
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
Yes, and Theresa’s disastrous election made them the critical voting bloc, despite being also a minority of the Tory MPs.
You haven’t answered my question. Why punish the Tory Party - most of whom have attempted to get a deal through - by voting with the ERGer fellow travellers, who have prevented such a deal?
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
It is Leave MPs who have refused to honour the result. Ask them why they are doing so. If Leavers won’t honour the result why should those of us who aren’t do so?
I think the deal would have passed if ERG were the only ones who didn’t vote for it
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
Yes, and Theresa’s disastrous election made them the critical voting bloc, despite being also a minority of the Tory MPs.
You haven’t answered my question. Why punish the Tory Party - most of whom have attempted to get a deal through - by voting with the ERGer fellow travellers, who have prevented such a deal?
I wanted to correct the first bit in case people thought I agreed.
> @RobD said: > > @Jonathan said: > > > @Luckyguy1983 said: > > > The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards. > > > > They have some interesting MPs, unlike the Lib Dem’s today. > > Who may be replaced by actual Lib Dems at the next election (e.g., Wollaston's seat)
The local elections, as expected, had huge leads for Lib Dems and Greens in Totnes and the Dart Valley, while the Conservatives fought back along the coast. One Remain candidate would make it a very tight contest, but two would result in an easy Conservative win.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
It was the ERG’s refusal to support the deal which gave cover to others to do the same. It is Leavers who have made it impossible for Britain to leave under the agreed WA.
Now they are claiming “betrayal” by others. The only people who have done any betraying are the stupid ERG’ers and their even more stupid fellow travellers.
A pity they didn’t understand the saying: “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” And now to cover their tracks they are lying about what sort of Brexit they say the people voted for in 2016.
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
Yes, and Theresa’s disastrous election made them the critical voting bloc, despite being also a minority of the Tory MPs.
You haven’t answered my question. Why punish the Tory Party - most of whom have attempted to get a deal through - by voting with the ERGer fellow travellers, who have prevented such a deal?
I wanted to correct the first bit in case people thought I agreed.
I’m not punishing them, I’ve never voted for them
Then, just who has “called a referendum and refused to honour the result?”
You seem to cite that as excusing Farage’s demagoguery, casual racism, and sympathy for authoritarian hardliners.
> @Sean_F said: > > @RobD said: > > > @Jonathan said: > > > > @Luckyguy1983 said: > > > > The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards. > > > > > > They have some interesting MPs, unlike the Lib Dem’s today. > > > > Who may be replaced by actual Lib Dems at the next election (e.g., Wollaston's seat) > > The local elections, as expected, had huge leads for Lib Dems and Greens in Totnes and the Dart Valley, while the Conservatives fought back along the coast. One Remain candidate would make it a very tight contest, but two would result in an easy Conservative win.
Wollaston's best chance would probably be to run as a Lib Dem at the next election. I think she'd win - as would many in the southwest particularly if the Brexit party are running to split/replace the Tory vote.
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
Yes, and Theresa’s disastrous election made them the critical voting bloc, despite being also a minority of the Tory MPs.
You haven’t answered my question. Why punish the Tory Party - most of whom have attempted to get a deal through - by voting with the ERGer fellow travellers, who have prevented such a deal?
I wanted to correct the first bit in case people thought I agreed.
I’m not punishing them, I’ve never voted for them
Then, just who has “called a referendum and refused to honour the result?”
You seem to cite that as excusing Farage’s demagoguery, casual racism, and sympathy for authoritarian hardliners.
Tory & Labour MPs voted to have a referendum, and have conspired not to honour the result. I haven’t voted for either since 2010 and I’m not likely to start again now
I like Farage & hope he does well, don’t really see the need to excuse him anything
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
Yes, and Theresa’s disastrous election made them the critical voting bloc, despite being also a minority of the Tory MPs.
You haven’t answered my question. Why punish the Tory Party - most of whom have attempted to get a deal through - by voting with the ERGer fellow travellers, who have prevented such a deal?
I wanted to correct the first bit in case people thought I agreed.
I’m not punishing them, I’ve never voted for them
Then, just who has “called a referendum and refused to honour the result?”
You seem to cite that as excusing Farage’s demagoguery, casual racism, and sympathy for authoritarian hardliners.
Tory & Labour MPs voted to have a referendum, and have conspired not to honour the result. I haven’t voted for either since 2010 and I’m not likely to start again now
I like Farage & hope he does well, don’t really see the need to excuse him anything
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
It was the ERG’s refusal to support the deal which gave cover to others to do the same. It is Leavers who have made it impossible for Britain to leave under the agreed WA.
Now they are claiming “betrayal” by others. The only people who have done any betraying are the stupid ERG’ers and their even more stupid fellow travellers.
A pity they didn’t understand the saying: “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” And now to cover their tracks they are lying about what sort of Brexit they say the people voted for in 2016.
They are as malign as Corbyn.
No, if Remain MPs said they’d respect the result they shouldn’t care what anyone else says or does.
> He looked like the same crass muppet on Question Time that he’s always looked like.<
+++++
You miss the point. I think perceptions of Farage have changed,
More importantly, he is facing the most inept and flailing prime minister, and the most inept and flailing Leader of the Opposition, in the history of modern British politics.
Compared to Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
Yes, and Theresa’s disastrous election made them the critical voting bloc, despite being also a minority of the Tory MPs.
You haven’t answered my question. Why punish the Tory Party - most of whom have attempted to get a deal through - by voting with the ERGer fellow travellers, who have prevented such a deal?
I wanted to correct the first bit in case people thought I agreed.
I’m not punishing them, I’ve never voted for them
Then, just who has “called a referendum and refused to honour the result?”
You seem to cite that as excusing Farage’s demagoguery, casual racism, and sympathy for authoritarian hardliners.
Tory & Labour MPs voted to have a referendum, and have conspired not to honour the result. I haven’t voted for either since 2010 and I’m not likely to start again now
I like Farage & hope he does well, don’t really see the need to excuse him anything
Of course you like Farage.
Well seeing as I was a UKIP member & campaigner 2013-2016, it’s not really a surprise I agree with him
> @Pulpstar said: > > @Sean_F said: > > > @RobD said: > > > > @Jonathan said: > > > > > @Luckyguy1983 said: > > > > > The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards. > > > > > > > > They have some interesting MPs, unlike the Lib Dem’s today. > > > > > > Who may be replaced by actual Lib Dems at the next election (e.g., Wollaston's seat) > > > > The local elections, as expected, had huge leads for Lib Dems and Greens in Totnes and the Dart Valley, while the Conservatives fought back along the coast. One Remain candidate would make it a very tight contest, but two would result in an easy Conservative win. > > Wollaston's best chance would probably be to run as a Lib Dem at the next election. I think she'd win - as would many in the southwest particularly if the Brexit party are running to split/replace the Tory vote.
I don't think any of the CHUK MPs seriously expect to be re-elected, indeed I think that is their perhaps subconscious desire. It would explain their crap party launch, and who would want to be in the next Parliament? Whoever wins it is likely that both PM and LOTO will be repulsive.
> Wollaston's best chance would probably be to run as a Lib Dem at the next election. I think she'd win - as would many in the southwest particularly if the Brexit party are running to split/replace the Tory vote.
---
But, why should the Lib Dems back down & choose Wollaston as their candidate?
From the LibDem POV, it is better to run a LibDem in 2022. Even if they split the vote and lose to the Tories, the LibDems are best placed to take it at the next GE.
The Tiggers don't have any quid pro quo to offer the LibDems. In fact, the only seats that the Tiggers could possible hold are prime LibDem targets.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
It was the ERG’s refusal to support the deal
A pity they didn’t understand the saying: “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” And now to cover their tracks they are lying about what sort of Brexit they say the people voted for in 2016.
They are as malign as Corbyn.
No, if Remain MPs said they’d respect the result they shouldn’t care what anyone else says or does.
Who is saying they will not respect the result?
I don’t think I’m aware of any MP calling for full on revoke?
As far as I can tell, it’s your man Farage and the Brexit Party who are not respecting the vote, which was NOT for a No Deal, and was relatively close.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
nding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
It was the ERG’s refusal to support the deal
A pity they didn’t understand the saying: “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” And now to cover their tracks they are lying about what sort of Brexit they say the people voted for in 2016.
They are as malign as Corbyn.
No, if Remain MPs said they’d respect the result they shouldn’t care what anyone else says or does.
Who is saying they will not respect the result?
I don’t think I’m aware of any MP calling for full on revoke?
As far as I can tell, it’s your man Farage and the Brexit Party who are not respecting the vote, which was NOT for a No Deal, and was relatively close.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > > Wollaston's best chance would probably be to run as a Lib Dem at the next election. I think she'd win - as would many in the southwest particularly if the Brexit party are running to split/replace the Tory vote. > > --- > > But, why should the Lib Dems back down & choose Wollaston as their candidate? > > From the LibDem POV, it is better to run a LibDem in 2022. Even if they split the vote and lose to the Tories, the LibDems are best placed to take it at the next GE. > > The Tiggers don't have any quid pro quo to offer the LibDems. In fact, the only seats that the Tiggers could possible hold are prime LibDem targets.
I think Wollaston simply double rats to the yellow peril, it'll be evidently the correct move after CUK's walloping at the euros.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
Farage is not moderate and sensible by comparison to Corbyn.
nding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
They are as malign as Corbyn.
No, if Remain MPs said they’d respect the result they shouldn’t care what anyone else says or does.
Who is saying they will not respect the result?
I don’t think I’m aware of any MP calling for full on revoke?
As far as I can tell, it’s your man Farage and the Brexit Party who are not respecting the vote, which was NOT for a No Deal, and was relatively close.
Just vote for the deal then
More MPs have voted for the Deal than for any other outcome.
But the Brexit Party wants to stand against those who have done so, in fact they have suggested they will *not* stand against “No Dealers”.
Ergo, The Brexit Party are No Dealers are are among those stopping us leaving the EU. So why they keep talking about “honouring the vote?”
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
They are as malign as Corbyn.
No, if Remain MPs said they’d respect the result they shouldn’t care what anyone else says or does.
Who is saying they will not respect the result?
I don’t think I’m aware of any MP calling for full on revoke?
As far as I can tell, it’s your man Farage and the Brexit Party who are not respecting the vote, which was NOT for a No Deal, and was relatively close.
Just vote for the deal then
More MPs have voted for the Deal than for any other outcome.
But the Brexit Party wants to stand against those who have done so, in fact they have suggested they will not stand against “No Dealers”.
Ergo, The Brexit Party are No Dealers are are among those stopping us leaving the EU. So why they keep talking about “honouring the vote?”
Probably because we were meant to Leave on March 29th either way and we didn’t
On the CUKs, they should announce after the Euros that their attempt to test the water for a new party has not been successful and they will let their MPs vote freely as their conscience allows.
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
They are as malign as Corbyn.
No, if Remain MPs said they’d respect the result they shouldn’t care what anyone else says or does.
Who is saying they will not respect the result?
I don’t think I’m aware of any MP calling for full on revoke?
As far as I can tell, it’s your man Farage and the Brexit Party who are not respecting the vote, which was NOT for a No Deal, and was relatively close.
Just vote for the deal then
More MPs have voted for the Deal than for any other outcome.
But the Brexit Party wants to stand against those who have done so, in fact they have suggested they will not stand against “No Dealers”.
Ergo, The Brexit Party are No Dealers are are among those stopping us leaving the EU. So why they keep talking about “honouring the vote?”
Probably because we were meant to Leave on March 29th either way and we didn’t
But March 29 was a deadline set by Theresa May. It was not part of the original vote.
> I think Wollaston simply double rats to the yellow peril, it'll be evidently the correct move after CUK's walloping at the euros.
---
Maybe she will.
But, it doesn't mean that the local LibDem constituency association has to adopt her as a candidate. Why should they?
There will already be some sweet LibDem priming himself or herself to be the candidate. Perhaps someone who has done rather more for the LibDems than Wollaston.
And, why won't the LibDems be thinking, if she rats once, and she rats twice, maybe she will rat a third time?
> @Gardenwalker said: > On the CUKs, they should announce after the Euros that their attempt to test the water for a new party has not been successful and they will let their MPs vote freely as their conscience allows.
---
Another Remainer failure? How sad.
I was wondering whether you had thought of a political career. Something tells me that you will add to the lustre of Remain.
Your policy of comparing political opponents to small animals that are members of the genus Bufo is surely a winner.
I for one would be very relieved to hear that you had taken charge of the Remain campaign if there is a second referendum.
> On the CUKs, they should announce after the Euros that their attempt to test the water for a new party has not been successful and they will let their MPs vote freely as their conscience allows.
---
Another Remainer failure? How sad.
I was wondering whether you had thought of a political career. Something tells me that you will add to the lustre of Remain.
Your policy of comparing political opponents to small animals that are members of the genus Bufo is surely a winner.
I for one would be very relieved to hear that you had taken charge of the Remain campaign if there is a second referendum.
You’re more interesting when you’re raving nonsensically about Welsh vassalage and blaming poverty on the invention of the flat white.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > I think Wollaston simply double rats to the yellow peril, it'll be evidently the correct move after CUK's walloping at the euros. > > --- > > Maybe she will. > > But, it doesn't mean that the local LibDem constituency association has to adopt her as a candidate. Why should they? > > There will already be some sweet LibDem priming himself or herself to be the candidate. Perhaps someone who has done rather more for the LibDems than Wollaston. > > And, why won't the LibDems be thinking, if she rats once, and she rats twice, maybe she will rat a third time? > > I don't see what is in it for the LibDems.
They won't win the seat if Wollaston runs against them as an independent/CUK I think (Independents can so well down that way - See Claire Wright/ East Devon)
> @Gardenwalker said: > > You’re more interesting when you’re raving nonsensically about Welsh vassalage and blaming poverty on the invention of the flat white.
--- Almost a quarter of the Welsh population live in poverty.
"Up in our Blaenau Gwent some young people came to our provision and they had no shoes on, they were dirty, they hadn't eaten. They eat a pack of Doritos to last them a day"
Let's make Fun of them as we sip our Flats & chortle ?
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > @Gardenwalker said: > > > > You’re more interesting when you’re raving nonsensically about Welsh vassalage and blaming poverty on the invention of the flat white. > > --- > Almost a quarter of the Welsh population live in poverty. > > "Up in our Blaenau Gwent some young people came to our provision and they had no shoes on, they were dirty, they hadn't eaten. They eat a pack of Doritos to last them a day" > > Let's make Fun of them as we sip our Flats & chortle ?
Do you really think that metropolitan coffee drinkers will care more for the former coalfields after Brexit? After all, aid to distressed regions is EU policy, not Farages.
Or do you expect a Trump trade deal to come to their rescue?
Compared to the disastrous T May he looks competent and determined. At least he knows what he thinks. Compared to the disastrous Corbyn he looks moderate and sensible. He's not going to endorse Hezbollah.
You have to remember the feeble enemy he faces: Labour AND the Tories are divided, useless and widely loathed.
You think calling a referendum then refusing to honour the result hasn’t been damaging?
But it is the ERGers - your fellow travellers in fantasy - who have failed to support a Deal.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
The ERG were a minority of the MPs that didn’t support a deal weren’t they?
They are as malign as Corbyn.
No, if Remain MPs said they’d respect the result they shouldn’t care what anyone else says or does.
Who is saying they will not respect the result?
I don’t think I’m aware of any MP calling for full on revoke?
As far as I can tell, it’s your man Farage and the Brexit Party who are not respecting the vote, which was NOT for a No Deal, and was relatively close.
Just vote for the deal then
More MPs have voted for the Deal than for any other outcome.
But the Brexit Party wants to stand against those who have done so, in fact they have suggested they will not stand against “No Dealers”.
Ergo, The Brexit Party are No Dealers are are among those stopping us leaving the EU. So why they keep talking about “honouring the vote?”
Probably because we were meant to Leave on March 29th either way and we didn’t
But March 29 was a deadline set by Theresa May. It was not part of the original vote.
As much as you may dislike it , voters aren’t backing May over the ERG.
Maybe because they feel it is a leaders job to lead - or they think Mays deal is crap. Or both.
> > There was absolutely no reason to have these elections, as we are leaving.
> >
> > The EU insisted we have them. Some bureaucrat noted it would be against the rules. Probably the EU thought in its "clever" way it would humiliate the Brexiteers.
> >
> > It was entirely predictable that they would be used in exactly the way that Farage is using them.
> >
> > I expect it will set a new grim record for Labour & Tories in a National election. It serves Labour, the Tories and the EU right.
>
> Just how do you think the EU could waive the requirement to hold the election?
Well, err .. the EU rules are not immutable, They are not the Laws of the Universe.
They could have changed the rules.
The EU acts to give its citizens votes. The oft-repeated claim by Leavers that the EU repeatedly asks voters to vote again relies on this fact. Given that (IIUC)...
a) the UK is still in the EU a) the UK has asked for two extensions to remain in the EU b) the UK has not asked for the election to be waived c) the UK has not altered the UK law requiring it to be held,
...it is unrealistic to expect that they would not be held.
I have noted before the propensity of Leavers to blame the EU for everything, and specifically the propensity to blame the EU for things that are the UK's responsibility and which the UK has the power to change. I think I will be noting it again for many times to come...
> @Foxy said: > > Do you really think that metropolitan coffee drinkers will care more for the former coalfields after Brexit? After all, aid to distressed regions is EU policy, not Farages.
I think the EU money given to Wales has been largely wasted. Sad, but true.
The blame for that does lie largely with Welsh (Labour) politicians.
Plugging the ComRes figures into Electoral Calculus gives Lab 316 Con 179 SNP 55 Brexit 49 LibDem 28 Others 23. If Labour can keep 5 points ahead they'll easily be the largest party if there's a GE this year.
This despite the endless torrents of slurry that are being poured at Corbyn's door. A combination of a Bernie effect and a TINA effect on the Left is keeping the Left-wing base on side.
I expected a GE this year. Indeed, bet on one.
No longer.
Oh, I can beat that. I bet £500 that the UK would leave the EU on schedule. I may stop mentioning it someday...
Comments
> > @Gardenwalker said:
>
> > > @Gardenwalker said:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > I was praying for someone - perhaps Rudd - to peer at him puzzlingly for a moment and ask him sincerely why he looks like a frog.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > They were far too polite. If the centrists want to beat Farage they need to find their inner mongrel.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Calling him names is the solution?
>
> >
>
> > No, but it would be funny.
>
>
>
> No it would have been petty, and I doubt Rudd would have won any support by doing so. What has his appearance got to do with anything?
>
> His opponents make the offence of taking him seriously. But he will lie and lie without hesitation.
>
> He needs the piss taken out of him.
Satirists can do that. Politicians should debate each others policies, not why they look like a particular animal.
No longer.
> >
> > Talk me through the process and the timetable for that.
>
> It is possible to do things quickly.
>
> In fact, it is not really difficult to fail to do something.
>
> It is not like the EU had to come up with a functioning time machine, or provide a unified field theory, or solve the problems of world hunger.
>
> It is pretty simple to fail to do something. You simply agree not to do it.
>
I’m afraid I’m going to need more precision than that. Talk me through step by step how the rules could be changed, who needs to agree and the timetable you propose.
>
> Like the law that said the UK would leave after two years? Funny how these things can be changed when they really want them to.
Rob, you can be obtuse sometimes. The extendability of Article 50 was there in black and white in the treaty and the UK government requested and agreed an extension.
Or 'Toad'
>
> His opponents make the offence of taking him seriously. But he will lie and lie without hesitation.
>
> He needs the piss taken out of him. <
+++++
Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know.
> > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > @Gardenwalker said:
> > > Again, political meltdown was all baked into Brexit. We smug Remainers predicted this, though not the precise configuration of course.
> > >
> > > May meanwhile is reaping what she sowed.
> > > By overcompensating to the ERGers, she allowed the Ovenden window to push hard right. “No Deal is better than a Bad Deal”, indeed. She created ERG’s rhetoric for them.
> > >
> > > By shilly-shallying and obfuscating, she has riled the righteous anger of mass gammon. And she has repeatedly lied to us all: Brexiter and Remainer alike.
> > >
> > > That she has finagled one of the lesser damaging Brexits, and that her enemies are deceivers and braggarts to a man, is besides the point.
> > >
> > > Brexit: Shit.
> > > May: Awful.
> >
> > Nah. This is all great. We need more of this chaos not less.
>
> It's solid entertainment.
Indeed. As Gardenwalker says, many of us predicted the political meltdown, and watching it being played out is morbidly fascinating and beats any TV drama. It's just a shame that so many people, and indeed the country as a whole, are having to suffer to provide this riveting entertainment.
> > @YBarddCwsc said:
>
> > >
>
> > > Talk me through the process and the timetable for that.
>
> >
>
> > It is possible to do things quickly.
>
> >
>
> > In fact, it is not really difficult to fail to do something.
>
> >
>
> > It is not like the EU had to come up with a functioning time machine, or provide a unified field theory, or solve the problems of world hunger.
>
> >
>
> > It is pretty simple to fail to do something. You simply agree not to do it.
>
> >
>
>
>
> I’m afraid I’m going to need more precision than that. Talk me through step by step how the rules could be changed, who needs to agree and the timetable you propose.
>
> You know how to get the party started on a Saturday night Al!
Well if someone is going to blow smoke out of his arse about how the rules can be changed just like that and build a whole thesis of paranoic nonsense from it, I’m going to be inspecting the building blocks closely.
> > @dixiedean said:
> > > @Jonathan said:
> > > > @Byronic said:
> > > > > @rottenborough said:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Arguably, his new message (broken politics, we voted 'out' why are we still in etc etc), is bigger than the man. <
> > > >
> > > > +++++
> > > >
> > > > Yep. A failed or "betrayed" Brexit - whether this actually happened or not - is the PERFECT medium wherein a protest party can thrive, and possibly triumph.
> > > >
> > > > Add in a general mood of mutinous populism across the West, and, well, bingo.
> > > >
> > > > It could happen. Prime Minister Farage is no more unlikely than President Trump.
> > > >
> > >
> > > U.K. FPTP makes it difficult. Trump had the GOP behind him
> >
> > Technically it doesn't. You need at least 45%+ to become POTUS.
> > c 35% to be PM with a split opposition. Blair (2005).
>
> Name the last Prime Minister or President not backed at an election by one of the main established parties.
Any Party getting 35% of the vote would, by definition, be a major Party.
Oh, and Macron. And Italy.
Both very close to us. And not riven by Brexit.
Why not here, then?
All the seat predictions based on these latest polls...how believable are they? Do they use current models and if so are the current models - which are I presume basically based on 2-and-a-bit-party politics for the most part (plus SNP factor for Scotland) - robust enough to generate meaningful results for effectively 4 parties (Lab/Con/Brex/LibD) on increasingly equivalent vote shares, not even accounting for the other smaller parties?
We can certainly plug the poll numbers into the current models and generate seat forecasts, but do we need new models for those polls to really be turned into meaningful seat forecasts? Am I over-thinking this (probably)?!
> > Calling him names is the solution?
>
> >
>
> > No, but it would be funny.
>
>
>
> No it would have been petty, and I doubt Rudd would have won any support by doing so. What has his appearance got to do with anything?
>
> Trump would have called him 'Kiki'.
>
> Or 'Toad' <
++++++
Remember when Soubry said, on live TV, that Farage looked like "someone has stuck a finger up his arse, and he likes it".
Well, now Anna Soubry, the tearful Remainer, is a member of a Remainer party polling somewhere between 3 and 6%, and falling, Farage is leading a Brexit party polling around 25-28%, and rising.
So that name-calling shit worked out well, didn't it?
--
I am very familiar with the EU, because I have been the recipient of multi-million pound EU grants.
So, I do know that it is completely contrary to the EU's mind to be able to do anything quickly or flexibly or sensibly.
We must put our lawyerly hands together, and pursing our lips sadly, we must regretfully say that what YBarddCwsc is requesting is not within the bounds of practical policy.
And how right the EU is. Much better to waste money running meaningless elections that will enable a rogue and charlatan to top the poll.
I don’t share your cynicism about “ALL POLITICIANS”.
Farage is a common-garden populist and demagogue, and he should be treated as such by his opponents and by any thinking journalist.
> Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know.
>
> Lies should be called out, not taken seriously.
>
> I don’t share your cynicism about “ALL POLITICIANS”.
>
> Farage is a common-garden populist and demagogue, and he should be treated as such by his opponents and by any thinking journalist.
Corbyn is far, far worse
> > @Gardenwalker said:
> > Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know.
> >
> > Lies should be called out, not taken seriously.
> >
> > I don’t share your cynicism about “ALL POLITICIANS”.
> >
> > Farage is a common-garden populist and demagogue, and he should be treated as such by his opponents and by any thinking journalist.
>
> Corbyn is far, far worse
Your rampant hypocrisy is blinding you. They are equally malign.
> > @Jonathan said:
> > > @dixiedean said:
> > > > @Jonathan said:
> > > > > @Byronic said:
> > > > > > @rottenborough said:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Arguably, his new message (broken politics, we voted 'out' why are we still in etc etc), is bigger than the man. <
> > > > >
> > > > > +++++
> > > > >
> > > > > Yep. A failed or "betrayed" Brexit - whether this actually happened or not - is the PERFECT medium wherein a protest party can thrive, and possibly triumph.
> > > > >
> > > > > Add in a general mood of mutinous populism across the West, and, well, bingo.
> > > > >
> > > > > It could happen. Prime Minister Farage is no more unlikely than President Trump.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > U.K. FPTP makes it difficult. Trump had the GOP behind him
> > >
> > > Technically it doesn't. You need at least 45%+ to become POTUS.
> > > c 35% to be PM with a split opposition. Blair (2005).
> >
> > Name the last Prime Minister or President not backed at an election by one of the main established parties.
>
> Any Party getting 35% of the vote would, by definition, be a major Party.
> Oh, and Macron. And Italy.
> Both very close to us. And not riven by Brexit.
> Why not here, then?
It’s easier to breakthrough when you have primaries and a run-off system than defeat 326 incumbent MPs. Not impossible, but much harder. The SNP are your best model, but they had laid the groundwork at Holyrood.
> Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know.
>
> Lies should be called out, not taken seriously.
>
> I don’t share your cynicism about “ALL POLITICIANS”.
>
> Farage is a common-garden populist and demagogue, and he should be treated as such by his opponents and by any thinking journalist.<
+++++
You are utterly wrong and very stupid. I came on this site as a Remainer, albeit an unkeen Remainer, and this is the level of thinking amongst Remainers?
"Call Farage a frog on TV and all will be well"
?
FFS, get a grip. Remain deserves to die, if this is your level of analysis.
> History suggests that populists like Farage are hard to shift before they have wrecked damage on the country.
>
> The only strategy is for old foes to bury the hatchet on old disputes, unite and fight hard.
History also shows us socialists are exactly the same.
Yet you voted for Corbyn
> Plugging the ComRes figures into Electoral Calculus gives Lab 316 Con 179 SNP 55 Brexit 49 LibDem 28 Others 23. If Labour can keep 5 points ahead they'll easily be the largest party if there's a GE this year.
>
>
>
> This despite the endless torrents of slurry that are being poured at Corbyn's door. A combination of a Bernie effect and a TINA effect on the Left is keeping the Left-wing base on side.
>
> I expected a GE this year. Indeed, bet on one.
>
> No longer.
I hear you, but I still think an early GE has surely got to be the final act of this Brexit play. Let's say May goes next month and Boris becomes leader. Some of the Faragists will come back to the Tories, but some more of their MPs will defect to the Tiggers and a VoNC will finally succeed. Anyway, leading the party and the government in the prevailing conditions would be one humiliation after another.
Is he really going to cut and run with a GE before Xmas?
I am not suggesting that calling Farage a frog means “all will be well”.
I merely noted it would be funny, and more seriously, suggest that piss-taking might be an effective technique where rational debate and factchecking seems to be failing.
From Wikipedia:
Toad is intelligent, creative and resourceful; however, he is also narcissistic, self-centred almost to the point of sociopathy, and completely lacking in even the most basic common sense. His reckless interest in motor cars leads to an episode in which he steals a car and drives it recklessly. The result of that is a twenty-year prison sentence, but he escapes, dressed as a washer woman.
>
> Jeez. Remainers are fucking clueless. ALL POLITICIANS LIE, ALL THE TIME. Quite how you use this universal truth to particularly puncture Farage, I do not know.
I agree with this. The way to beat Farage is based on a solid political strategy to disarm his arguments. He's used to dealing with politicians who play into his hands by tacitly agreeing with him about not liking the EU, while disagreeing with him on things that are popular with the public.
>
> ?
>
> FFS, get a grip. Remain deserves to die, if this is your level of analysis.
I was going to make the same point.
Farage may be a rogue and a charlatan.
But, the failure of Remain is even more astonishing.
There is no substantial political figure fighting for Remain (except possibly Sturgeon).
And the crass level of intellectual argument ("he looks like a Frog" or "Bollocks to Brexit" or "they're all xenophobes") of many Remainers is the most astonishing of all.
> Random question.
>
> All the seat predictions based on these latest polls...how believable are they? Do they use current models and if so are the current models - which are I presume basically based on 2-and-a-bit-party politics for the most part (plus SNP factor for Scotland) - robust enough to generate meaningful results for effectively 4 parties (Lab/Con/Brex/LibD) on increasingly equivalent vote shares, not even accounting for the other smaller parties?
>
> We can certainly plug the poll numbers into the current models and generate seat forecasts, but do we need new models for those polls to really be turned into meaningful seat forecasts? Am I over-thinking this (probably)?!
Electoral Calculus has been updated to take account of TBP and CUK. Of course it can't take account of them very precisely - you can take the predictions for individual seats with a pinch of salt - but it gives a fair reflection of the overall picture, based on the regional/demographic biases of the various parties.
> The country is splintering before our eyes.
>
> That’s what happens when politicians refuse to enact a vote they told us was a once in a generation public choice that MPs wouldn’t override
Or when populists offer the moon on a stick and shout betrayal at people trying to figure out how to implement it.
> > @nico67 said:
> > Amazing coverage , it’s like the Lib Dems poll surge completely ignored by the papers .
> >
> > And it’s just one big wank job over the BP . And Labour shedding votes to the Lib Dems because of their fence sitting gets zero coverage .
>
> The media seems incapable of reporting more than one aspect of a story at once.
> Witness the last GE. So fixated were they on Leavers moving to the Tories, they were flabbergasted when it transpired Remainers had moved to Labour as well.
> 2 THINGS happening at the SAME TIME!!!?
> Labour needed to come off the fence for Remain for these Euros. Then we'd have had a Labour v Farage battle. As it is, back come the LD's. Up off the canvas, and swinging again.
> Result. Farage wins is the story.
> Take a bow Tories, Remainers, Corbynites. Good job!
Bizarely Corbyn and his cronies will read into the polls that Labour needs to become more Leave when they’re losing votes to the Lib Dems ! The Labour drop in Comres is clearly going to second vote parties .
> > @dixiedean said:
> > > @Jonathan said:
> > > > @dixiedean said:
> > > > > @Jonathan said:
> > > > > > @Byronic said:
> > > > > > > @rottenborough said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Arguably, his new message (broken politics, we voted 'out' why are we still in etc etc), is bigger than the man. <
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +++++
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yep. A failed or "betrayed" Brexit - whether this actually happened or not - is the PERFECT medium wherein a protest party can thrive, and possibly triumph.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Add in a general mood of mutinous populism across the West, and, well, bingo.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It could happen. Prime Minister Farage is no more unlikely than President Trump.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > U.K. FPTP makes it difficult. Trump had the GOP behind him
> > > >
> > > > Technically it doesn't. You need at least 45%+ to become POTUS.
> > > > c 35% to be PM with a split opposition. Blair (2005).
> > >
> > > Name the last Prime Minister or President not backed at an election by one of the main established parties.
> >
> > Any Party getting 35% of the vote would, by definition, be a major Party.
> > Oh, and Macron. And Italy.
> > Both very close to us. And not riven by Brexit.
> > Why not here, then?
>
> It’s easier to breakthrough when you have primaries and a run-off system than defeat 326 incumbent MPs. Not impossible, but much harder. The SNP are your best model, but they had laid the groundwork at Holyrood.
Yes it is harder. But I would reckon far from impossible. We live in febrile political times, and Farage as PM is not a prospect I am willing to write off.
> https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1127257482865324032
>
>
>
>
>
> Indeed.
>
>
>
> Whoever is Farage's PR/video company they are bloody good.
>
> Who are they? And who is doing all the hard work behind the scenes? It must be more than just Farage - so who else is involved?
>
> I was about to post exactly that. Bannon? And is there a Cambridge Analytica style operation in the background?
>
> But as you’ve beaten me to it, I’ll simply observe that Liz Truss’s new hairstyle is clearly intended to make her look like Thatcher but ends up making her look like Andrea Leadsom.
>
> Deary me, someone produced a fairly decent well targeted ppb and it must be the result of alt-right American devilry! Leave.EU (who I presume use the same agency) have always had a very strong social media game and produced good quality collateral. It's a total myth that Leave's victory had anything to do with the utterly inept Vote Leave campaign.
It was the Russians, natch.
If we are still in the EU by the next general election a Farage premiership does not look so far fetched after all
https://twitter.com/goldengateblond/status/1127319780476588033?s=21
> > @Jonathan said:
> > > @dixiedean said:
> > > > @Jonathan said:
> > > > > @Byronic said:
> > > > > > @rottenborough said:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Arguably, his new message (broken politics, we voted 'out' why are we still in etc etc), is bigger than the man. <
> > > > >
> > > > > +++++
> > > > >
> > > > > Yep. A failed or "betrayed" Brexit - whether this actually happened or not - is the PERFECT medium wherein a protest party can thrive, and possibly triumph.
> > > > >
> > > > > Add in a general mood of mutinous populism across the West, and, well, bingo.
> > > > >
> > > > > It could happen. Prime Minister Farage is no more unlikely than President Trump.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > U.K. FPTP makes it difficult. Trump had the GOP behind him
> > >
> > > Technically it doesn't. You need at least 45%+ to become POTUS.
> > > c 35% to be PM with a split opposition. Blair (2005).
> >
> > Name the last Prime Minister or President not backed at an election by one of the main established parties.
>
> Any Party getting 35% of the vote would, by definition, be a major Party.
> Oh, and Macron. And Italy.
> Both very close to us. And not riven by Brexit.
> Why not here, then?
If Farage gets all his European elections voters to vote for him at a general election he could well become PM, on tonight's polling he has now ensured at least 2/3 of them are, he just needs to convince the remaining third
> I wonder where all those Brexit £25 “registration fees” are going.
>
> https://twitter.com/goldengateblond/status/1127319780476588033
The campaign ads, leaflets, rallies? These things have all been seen.
>
> > "Call Farage a frog on TV and all will be well"
> >
> > ?
> >
> > FFS, get a grip. Remain deserves to die, if this is your level of analysis.
>
> I was going to make the same point.
>
> Farage may be a rogue and a charlatan.
>
> But, the failure of Remain is even more astonishing.
>
> There is no substantial political figure fighting for Remain (except possibly Sturgeon).
>
> And the crass level of intellectual argument ("he looks like a Frog" or "Bollocks to Brexit" or "they're all xenophobes") of many Remainers is the most astonishing of all.
Remain has not failed. The fact that we're still in the EU three years after the referendum is testament to that. There have been some (somewhat mystifying) missteps of late, but the direction of travel is still clear. In fact, for all its apparent success, the rise of the Brexit Party has not yet done anything to make Brexit closer to reality.
>
> If Farage gets all his European elections voters to vote for him at a general election he could well become PM, on tonight's polling he has now ensured at least 2/3 of them are, he just needs to convince the remaining third
He got 27% in the last European elections on 4,376,635 votes, and kept 3,881,099 of them in the following General Election. He did not become PM.
>
> Remain has not failed. The fact that we're still in the EU three years after the referendum is testament to that. There have been some (somewhat mystifying) missteps of late, but the direction of travel is still clear. In fact, for all its apparent success, the rise of the Brexit Party has not yet done anything to make Brexit closer to reality.
----
May I be the first to wish Remainers many years of similar success?
After Gardenwalker told me the key to it all was calling Farage out as an amphibian on live TV, I just wondered fleetingly whether Remain had lost it.
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > @rottenborough said:
> > > https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1127257482865324032
> > >
> > > Indeed.
> > >
> > > Whoever is Farage's PR/video company they are bloody good.
> >
> > Nigel Farage himself caps the level of support.
>
>
> ++++
>
>
> I'm not sure he does, any more. He has clearly reinvented himself. Sharp suits, softer tone. He could become the Alex Salmond of British politics. Hated by many, even a majority, but sufficiently popular with the rest to actually win a general election.
>
> Brexit has broken all the rules, just as Sindyref did before in Scotland.
The comparison with Alex Salmond, down to being Mr Toad, is apt.
His economic policy - insofar as one can be discerned - a No Deal Brexit - is likely to do very serious damage to our economy and peoples’ jobs. He is just as willing as Corbyn to perpetrate anti-semitic tropes. He seems to have a fondness for authoritarian illiberal leaders.
And his party’s funding is obscure. More money is being spent than the amount given by one known donor. Plus the way he has set up his party - with no structure so that it simply revolves around him is odd and pretty undemocratic for someone who claims to believe in democracy. At the risk of invoking the Godwin rule, it has a hint of the Fuehrerprinzip about it.
As for being determined, why is this a virtue when the course he is set on - inflicting a No Deal Brexit - is one which is likely to be damaging to the country he claims to care about?
> The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards.
They have some interesting MPs, unlike the Lib Dem’s today.
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/05/11/brexit-party-doubles-lead-over-labour-in-european-election-poll/
> > @Luckyguy1983 said:
> > The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards.
>
> They have some interesting MPs, unlike the Lib Dem’s today.
Who may be replaced by actual Lib Dems at the next election (e.g., Wollaston's seat)
> > "Call Farage a frog on TV and all will be well"
>
> >
>
> > ?
>
> >
>
> > FFS, get a grip. Remain deserves to die, if this is your level of analysis.
>
>
>
> I was going to make the same point.
>
>
>
> Farage may be a rogue and a charlatan.
>
>
>
> But, the failure of Remain is even more astonishing.
>
>
>
> There is no substantial political figure fighting for Remain (except possibly Sturgeon).
>
>
>
> And the crass level of intellectual argument ("he looks like a Frog" or "Bollocks to Brexit" or "they're all xenophobes") of many Remainers is the most astonishing of all.
>
> They just sound like nerds who were bullied at school trying to act tough, totally tragic
No one is interested in reasonable argument any more.
A deal which had the grudging support of most of PBs Tories until Farage’s Second Coming.
If you want to leave the EU, and have half a wit on you, you’d be voting Tory. Wouldn’t you?
https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1126461262014177281
> > @HYUFD said:
> >
> > If Farage gets all his European elections voters to vote for him at a general election he could well become PM, on tonight's polling he has now ensured at least 2/3 of them are, he just needs to convince the remaining third
>
> He got 27% in the last European elections on 4,376,635 votes, and kept 3,881,099 of them in the following General Election. He did not become PM.
He got 12% in the general election, less than half the 27% he got in the European Parliament elections. If Farage matched the 34% he is on in the European Parliament elections with Opinium he would lead Labour by 13% and the Tories and LDs by over 20% and almost certainly the Brexit Party would win a majority under FPTP
> Brexit Party now just 7% of first place in 2 Westminster polls, ahead of the Tories in second with Comres and just 1% behind with Opinium and clearly in front with both pollsters for the European elections.
>
> If we are still in the EU by the next general election a Farage premiership does not look so far fetched after all
With electoral meltdown beckoning, it is unlikely that May will still be in place in a month's time.
There is still the potential for the Conservatives to bounce back to poll around the mid 30s and possibly more with an unequivocal Brexiteer as leader, even with the Brexit Party polling in low double figures. If they can act quickly to depose May, the other message from these polls regarding fracturing of the Labour vote should still give some grounds for Conservative optimism.
However, the longer that May is allowed to equivocate, the harder it is going to be to put the Brexit Party genie back in the bottle. It seems to be gathering momentum by the day and triumphs at the Euros and Peterborough will solidify their polling further.
You haven’t answered my question.
Why punish the Tory Party - most of whom have attempted to get a deal through - by voting with the ERGer fellow travellers, who have prevented such a deal?
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1127337212813742082
> Even with Com Res, the trend is to TBP. Three weeks ago, Labour were 16% ahead.
Labour has lost out mainly to pro second vote parties . The Tories who are hugely reliant on Leave voters are the main losers to the BP.
I’m not punishing them, I’ve never voted for them
> > @Jonathan said:
> > > @Luckyguy1983 said:
> > > The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards.
> >
> > They have some interesting MPs, unlike the Lib Dem’s today.
>
> Who may be replaced by actual Lib Dems at the next election (e.g., Wollaston's seat)
The local elections, as expected, had huge leads for Lib Dems and Greens in Totnes and the Dart Valley, while the Conservatives fought back along the coast. One Remain candidate would make it a very tight contest, but two would result in an easy Conservative win.
> https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1127337211777757191
>
> https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1127337212813742082
Ben Shapiro had a disastrous interview with Brillo the other day, but he was correct when he said that Biden had a great chance vs Trump.
Now they are claiming “betrayal” by others. The only people who have done any betraying are the stupid ERG’ers and their even more stupid fellow travellers.
A pity they didn’t understand the saying: “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” And now to cover their tracks they are lying about what sort of Brexit they say the people voted for in 2016.
They are as malign as Corbyn.
You seem to cite that as excusing Farage’s demagoguery, casual racism, and sympathy for authoritarian hardliners.
> > @RobD said:
> > > @Jonathan said:
> > > > @Luckyguy1983 said:
> > > > The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards.
> > >
> > > They have some interesting MPs, unlike the Lib Dem’s today.
> >
> > Who may be replaced by actual Lib Dems at the next election (e.g., Wollaston's seat)
>
> The local elections, as expected, had huge leads for Lib Dems and Greens in Totnes and the Dart Valley, while the Conservatives fought back along the coast. One Remain candidate would make it a very tight contest, but two would result in an easy Conservative win.
Wollaston's best chance would probably be to run as a Lib Dem at the next election. I think she'd win - as would many in the southwest particularly if the Brexit party are running to split/replace the Tory vote.
I like Farage & hope he does well, don’t really see the need to excuse him anything
No, if Remain MPs said they’d respect the result they shouldn’t care what anyone else says or does.
> > @Sean_F said:
> > > @RobD said:
> > > > @Jonathan said:
> > > > > @Luckyguy1983 said:
> > > > > The thing with Change UK is, if they do 'merge' with the Lib Dems, there isn't going to be a change of name this time around surely. Change UK have no cards.
> > > >
> > > > They have some interesting MPs, unlike the Lib Dem’s today.
> > >
> > > Who may be replaced by actual Lib Dems at the next election (e.g., Wollaston's seat)
> >
> > The local elections, as expected, had huge leads for Lib Dems and Greens in Totnes and the Dart Valley, while the Conservatives fought back along the coast. One Remain candidate would make it a very tight contest, but two would result in an easy Conservative win.
>
> Wollaston's best chance would probably be to run as a Lib Dem at the next election. I think she'd win - as would many in the southwest particularly if the Brexit party are running to split/replace the Tory vote.
I don't think any of the CHUK MPs seriously expect to be re-elected, indeed I think that is their perhaps subconscious desire. It would explain their crap party launch, and who would want to be in the next Parliament? Whoever wins it is likely that both PM and LOTO will be repulsive.
---
But, why should the Lib Dems back down & choose Wollaston as their candidate?
From the LibDem POV, it is better to run a LibDem in 2022. Even if they split the vote and lose to the Tories, the LibDems are best placed to take it at the next GE.
The Tiggers don't have any quid pro quo to offer the LibDems. In fact, the only seats that the Tiggers could possible hold are prime LibDem targets.
I don’t think I’m aware of any MP calling for full on revoke?
As far as I can tell, it’s your man Farage and the Brexit Party who are not respecting the vote, which was NOT for a No Deal, and was relatively close.
https://www.pscp.tv/w/1YpJkvMNdoXGj?t=19m23s
For the best possible result, let's hope MrsMay's premiership survives til October.
>
> > Wollaston's best chance would probably be to run as a Lib Dem at the next election. I think she'd win - as would many in the southwest particularly if the Brexit party are running to split/replace the Tory vote.
>
> ---
>
> But, why should the Lib Dems back down & choose Wollaston as their candidate?
>
> From the LibDem POV, it is better to run a LibDem in 2022. Even if they split the vote and lose to the Tories, the LibDems are best placed to take it at the next GE.
>
> The Tiggers don't have any quid pro quo to offer the LibDems. In fact, the only seats that the Tiggers could possible hold are prime LibDem targets.
I think Wollaston simply double rats to the yellow peril, it'll be evidently the correct move after CUK's walloping at the euros.
But the Brexit Party wants to stand against those who have done so, in fact they have suggested they will *not* stand against “No Dealers”.
Ergo, The Brexit Party are No Dealers are are among those stopping us leaving the EU. So why they keep talking about “honouring the vote?”
---
Maybe she will.
But, it doesn't mean that the local LibDem constituency association has to adopt her as a candidate. Why should they?
There will already be some sweet LibDem priming himself or herself to be the candidate. Perhaps someone who has done rather more for the LibDems than Wollaston.
And, why won't the LibDems be thinking, if she rats once, and she rats twice, maybe she will rat a third time?
I don't see what is in it for the LibDems.
> On the CUKs, they should announce after the Euros that their attempt to test the water for a new party has not been successful and they will let their MPs vote freely as their conscience allows.
---
Another Remainer failure? How sad.
I was wondering whether you had thought of a political career. Something tells me that you will add to the lustre of Remain.
Your policy of comparing political opponents to small animals that are members of the genus Bufo is surely a winner.
I for one would be very relieved to hear that you had taken charge of the Remain campaign if there is a second referendum.
Brexit Party 1.88
Labour Party 2.2
> https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1127337211777757191
>
> https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1127337212813742082
Has no-one explained to Trump how tariffs work? Meanwhile, at least as worrying is we may be collateral damage as Trump has Germany in his sights.
> > I think Wollaston simply double rats to the yellow peril, it'll be evidently the correct move after CUK's walloping at the euros.
>
> ---
>
> Maybe she will.
>
> But, it doesn't mean that the local LibDem constituency association has to adopt her as a candidate. Why should they?
>
> There will already be some sweet LibDem priming himself or herself to be the candidate. Perhaps someone who has done rather more for the LibDems than Wollaston.
>
> And, why won't the LibDems be thinking, if she rats once, and she rats twice, maybe she will rat a third time?
>
> I don't see what is in it for the LibDems.
They won't win the seat if Wollaston runs against them as an independent/CUK I think (Independents can so well down that way - See Claire Wright/ East Devon)
*Checks back Gallup - 9th January 1995 Tories 18.5, Labour 62 !
>
> You’re more interesting when you’re raving nonsensically about Welsh vassalage and blaming poverty on the invention of the flat white.
---
Almost a quarter of the Welsh population live in poverty.
"Up in our Blaenau Gwent some young people came to our provision and they had no shoes on, they were dirty, they hadn't eaten. They eat a pack of Doritos to last them a day"
Let's make Fun of them as we sip our Flats & chortle ?
> > @Gardenwalker said:
> >
> > You’re more interesting when you’re raving nonsensically about Welsh vassalage and blaming poverty on the invention of the flat white.
>
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> Almost a quarter of the Welsh population live in poverty.
>
> "Up in our Blaenau Gwent some young people came to our provision and they had no shoes on, they were dirty, they hadn't eaten. They eat a pack of Doritos to last them a day"
>
> Let's make Fun of them as we sip our Flats & chortle ?
Do you really think that metropolitan coffee drinkers will care more for the former coalfields after Brexit? After all, aid to distressed regions is EU policy, not Farages.
Or do you expect a Trump trade deal to come to their rescue?
Maybe because they feel it is a leaders job to lead - or they think Mays deal is crap. Or both.
Blaming the ERG is a dead end.
a) the UK is still in the EU
a) the UK has asked for two extensions to remain in the EU
b) the UK has not asked for the election to be waived
c) the UK has not altered the UK law requiring it to be held,
...it is unrealistic to expect that they would not be held.
I have noted before the propensity of Leavers to blame the EU for everything, and specifically the propensity to blame the EU for things that are the UK's responsibility and which the UK has the power to change. I think I will be noting it again for many times to come...
>
> Do you really think that metropolitan coffee drinkers will care more for the former coalfields after Brexit? After all, aid to distressed regions is EU policy, not Farages.
I think the EU money given to Wales has been largely wasted. Sad, but true.
The blame for that does lie largely with Welsh (Labour) politicians.