> @ydoethur said: > > @ydoethur said: > > > > @ydoethur said: > > > Who was the last cabinet minister to be actually openly sacked rather than going through a formal exchange of letters pretending they had resigned? Charles Clarke? > > > > > > Osborne? > > > > > > At a change of Prime Minister, all office holders automatically lose their posts. So no, he wasn't sacked, he just wasn't reappointed. > > > > I thought she refused him the option of resigning. > > Since he had no office, what could he have resigned? > > Any progress in blockquote?
I emailed them. They're working on it
Seriously considering a change of commenting system.
> @ralphmalph said: > > @ydoethur said: > > Who was the last cabinet minister to be actually openly sacked rather than going through a formal exchange of letters pretending they had resigned? Charles Clarke? > > Osborne?
Good question. Damian Green was close - he did not agree to resign, he was instructed to resign, which is so obviously a sacking even the headline writers could use that word
> @AndyJS said: > > @dyedwoolie said: > > Change UK need to stand in Peterborough, test the remain alliance vote > > It isn't, and never has been, a good place for liberal centrists. Even in 1983 Labour stayed in second place over the SDP/Liberal Alliance.
> @TheJezziah said: > > @TheJezziah said: > > > > @TheJezziah said: > > > > She is a trained solicitor (though not for much longer in all likelihood), an elected representative - and a convicted criminal. > > > There shouldn't be a 12 month lower limit for forcing convicted MPs from office - it should be ANY prison time. No ifs, no buts. Yes, the appeal process should be allowed to play out. But once concluded, any prison time should immediately lead to the removal of that MP from office. > > > > I cannot see any acceptable reason for her to have not resigned - other than for personal gain. And that is not an honourable course of action on her part. >
> > > The video she released did nothing to help her cause. Nor did the fact that her attempted appeal was so poorly prepared that it was immediately dismissed. > > >
> > > > > I do want the law changed so that convicted politicians who get any prison time are removed from public life. Onasanya should have resigned as soon as her appeal failed. Her decision not to do that has cost over £500K > > > > > > We cannot legally compel people to act honourably, I completely agree she hasn't though. My objection to a stronger rule might be a popular politician who in a rather more unfortunate or justified set of circumstances ends up on the wrong side of the rule. Although maybe I am thinking a bit too much about worst case scenario... > > > > > > Maybe politicians who are very likely to be recalled could be offered a financial incentive to step down, if she'd been offered a months more wages than she got now it would have been in her self interest to take it and we would have saved money on the recall. > > > > I don't think you should be paid off under these circumstances. She broke the law. She served prison time. She should have lost her position as MP with no financial compensation. Paying off criminals isn't good for anyone. > > Well unless we did change the rules the idea would be there isn't a financial incentive to hang on and force a recall. Assuming Fiona did it just for the money we would have saved £500K minus a months wages and Peterborough would have had to put up with her as their MP for less time. I was thinking of it as a lesser evil. > > I'm reluctant about forcing elected people charged with minor things out of politics without the agreement of their electorate. In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut. Doing it this way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy.
I am not saying that any conviction forces the removal of the MP - just any conviction that involves a sentence of any period in prison.
The 12 month limit is utterly arbitrary and doesn't serve justice or democracy.
Prison is not a minor sentence. It shows a significant level of criminal activity.
Good question. Damian Green was close - he did not agree to resign, he was instructed to resign, which is so obviously a sacking even the headline writers could use that word
Selwyn Lloyd's was surely the best: 'Dear Prime Minister
You asked me to resign my office, and this I most willingly do.'
The sarcasm drips from every syllable, doesn't it?!
> @TheJezziah said: > > @TheJezziah said: > > > > @TheJezziah said: > > > > She is a trained solicitor (though not for much longer in all likelihood), an elected representative - and a convicted criminal. > > > There shouldn't be a 12 month lower limit for forcing convicted MPs from office - it should be ANY prison time. No ifs, no buts. Yes, the appeal process should be allowed to play out. But once concluded, any prison time should immediately lead to the removal of that MP from office. > > > > I cannot see any acceptable reason for her to have not resigned - other than for personal gain. And that is not an honourable course of action on her part. > > > > > > > > > > > > The video she released did nothing to help her cause. Nor did the fact that her attempted appeal was so poorly prepared that it was immediately dismissed. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do want the law changed so that convicted politicians who get any prison time are removed from public life. Onasanya should have resigned as soon as her appeal failed. Her decision not to do that has cost over £500K > > > > > > We cannot legally compel people to act honourably, I completely agree she hasn't though. My objection to a stronger rule might be a popular politician who in a rather more unfortunate or justified set of circumstances ends up on the wrong side of the rule. Although maybe I am thinking a bit too much about worst case scenario... > > > > > > Maybe politicians who are very likely to be recalled could be offered a financial incentive to step down, if she'd been offered a months more wages than she got now it would have been in her self interest to take it and we would have saved money on the recall. > > > > I don't think you should be paid off under these circumstances. She broke the law. She served prison time. She should have lost her position as MP with no financial compensation. Paying off criminals isn't good for anyone. > > Well unless we did change the rules the idea would be there isn't a financial incentive to hang on and force a recall. Assuming Fiona did it just for the money w > > I'm reluctant about forcing elected people charged with minor things out of politics without the agreement of their electorate. In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut. Doing it this way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy.
What's not clear cut about it? If she wasn't setentenced to jail time that might not be clear cut, but she was. Also, it was not a minor offence, she lied to the police, repeatedly.
Seems pretty clear cut to me - even a short custodial sentence seems to me to be a reasonable cutting off point.
> @kle4 said: > > @AndyJS said: > > > @dyedwoolie said: > > > Change UK need to stand in Peterborough, test the remain alliance vote > > > > It isn't, and never has been, a good place for liberal centrists. Even in 1983 Labour stayed in second place over the SDP/Liberal Alliance. > > They cannot keep ducking elections.
> @rcs1000 said: > Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them.
One is minded to reflect that Johnathan Aitken's daughter Victoria was about to give evidence on his behalf when the libel trial he instigated against the "Guardian" and "Granada" TV collapsed when it was proved that Aitken's relationship with the truth was marginal.
> @GIN1138 said: > > @JackW said: > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > Would be ironic if it's not Brexit that does for Theresa May in the end but Huawei... > > > > > > > Are you betting upto 5Gs on that ?? .. > > Will we be seeing a special Peterborough version of your ARSE in due course?
> > We cannot legally compel people to act honourably, I completely agree she hasn't though. My objection to a stronger rule might be a popular politician who in a rather more unfortunate or justified set of circumstances ends up on the wrong side of the rule. Although maybe I am thinking a bit too much about worst case scenario...
> > Maybe politicians who are very likely to be recalled could be offered a financial incentive to step down, if she'd been offered a months more wages than she got now it would have been in her self interest to take it and we would have saved money on the recall.
> I don't think you should be paid off under these circumstances. She broke the law. She served prison time. She should have lost her position as MP with no financial compensation. Paying off criminals isn't good for anyone.
> Well unless we did change the rules the idea would be there isn't a financial incentive to hang on and force a recall. Assuming Fiona did it just for the money w
> I'm reluctant about forcing elected people charged with minor things out of politics without the agreement of their electorate. In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut. Doing it this way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy.
What's not clear cut about it? If she wasn't setentenced to jail time that might not be clear cut, but she was. Also, it was not a minor offence, she lied to the police, repeatedly.
Seems pretty clear cut to me - even a short custodial sentence seems to me to be a reasonable cutting off point.
It appears my words were not clear cut.
The sentence was 'In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut'
So it was clear cut with Fiona, other situations might not be.
Also to clarify the clear cut was more a reference to it being a bad thing she had done, there can be a difference between criminal guilt and doing something wrong.
> @GIN1138 said: > Hasn't the official secrets act been broken (allegedly) by the leak? > > Presumably any member of the public could walk into a police station and make a complaint about this alleged crime? > > Anyone on PB want to do it?
If Williamson is telling the truth - we need to allow the possibility - the discrepancy might be explained by him being the source of the leak without deliberately leaking the information himself to the Telegraph. So Williamson comes out of the NSC meeting and sounds off about the decision to his advisors, one of whom goes to the Telagraph. Williamson will now claim to his dying day he wasn't the leaker.
This may be implied by Theresa May's letter of dismissal that berates Williamson for a lack of cooperation with the enquiry. Actually it doesn't claim he leaked the information. On a generous interpretation, Williamson may be protecting his staff by refusing to cooperate. It protects him too, however.
> > We cannot legally compel people to act honourably, I completely agree she hasn't though. My objection to a stronger rule might be a popular politician who in a rather more unfortunate or justified set of circumstances ends up on the wrong side of the rule. Although maybe I am thinking a bit too much about worst case scenario...
> > Maybe politicians who are very likely to be recalled could be offered a financial incentive to step down, if she'd been offered a months more wages than she got now it would have been in her self interest to take it and we would have saved money on the recall.
> I don't think you should be paid off under these circumstances. She broke the law. She served prison time. She should have lost her position as MP with no financial compensation. Paying off criminals isn't good for anyone.
> Well unless we did change the rules the idea would be there isn't a financial incentive to hang on and force a recall. Assuming Fiona did it just for the money w
> I'm reluctant about forcing elected people charged with minor things out of politics without the agreement of their electorate. In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut. Doing it this way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy.
What's not clear cut about it? If she wasn't setentenced to jail time that might not be clear cut, but she was. Also, it was not a minor offence, she lied to the police, repeatedly.
Seems pretty clear cut to me - even a short custodial sentence seems to me to be a reasonable cutting off point.
It appears my words were not clear cut.
The sentence was 'In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut'
So it was clear cut with Fiona, other situations might not be.
Also to clarify the clear cut was more a reference to it being a bad thing she had done, there can be a difference between criminal guilt and doing something wrong.
Could the judge maybe write to the speaker to recommend disbarment under such circumstances?
> @TheJezziah said: > > @TheJezziah said: > > > > @TheJezziah said: > > > > > > @TheJezziah said: > > > > > S > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We cannot legally compel people to act honourably, I completely agree she hasn't though. My objection to a stronger rule might be a popular politician who in a rather more unfortunate or justified set of circumstances ends up on the wrong side of the rule. Although maybe I am thinking a bit too much about worst case scenario... > > > > > Maybe politicians who are very likely to be recalled could be offered a financial incentive to step down, if she'd been offered a months more wages than she got now it would have been in her self interest to take it and we would have saved money on the recall. > > > > I don't think you should be paid off under these circumstances. She broke the law. She served prison time. She should have lost her position as MP with no financial compensation. Paying off criminals isn't good for anyone. > > > > Well unless we did change the rules the idea would be there isn't a financial incentive to hang on and force a recall. Assuming Fiona did it just for the money w > > > > I'm reluctant about forcing elected people charged with minor things out of politics without the agreement of their electorate. In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut. Doing it this way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy. > > > What's not clear cut about it? If she wasn't setentenced to jail time that might not be clear cut, but she was. Also, it was not a minor offence, she lied to the police, repeatedly. > > > Seems pretty clear cut to me - even a short custodial sentence seems to me to be a reasonable cutting off point. > > It appears my words were not clear cut. > > The sentence was 'In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut' > > So it was clear cut with Fiona, other situations might not be. > > Also to clarify the clear cut was more a reference to it being a bad thing she had done, there can be a difference between criminal guilt and doing something wrong.
Yes, but what other situations would not be clear cut when they involve prison time? The recall process doesn't trigger until after appeals, so have the same in the case of any custodial sentence - that way anyone who is in fact innocent and is willing to fight it is not turfed out until then.
> @TheJezziah said: > > @TheJezziah said: > > > > @TheJezziah said: > > > > She is a trained solicitor (though not for much longer in all likelihood), an elected representative - and a convicted criminal. > > > > > > I cannot see any acceptable reason for her to have not resigned - other than for personal gain. And that is not an honourable course of action on her part. > > > > > > > > > > > > The video she released did nothing to help her cause. Nor did the fact that her attempted appeal was so poorly prepared that it was immediately dismissed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We cannot legally compel people to act honourably, I completely agree she hasn't though. My objection to a stronger rule might be a popular politician who in a rather more unfortunate or justified set of circumstances ends up on the wrong side of the rule. Although maybe I am thinking a bit too much about worst case scenario... > > > > > > Maybe politicians who are very likely to be recalled could be offered a financial incentive to step down, if she'd been offered a months more wages than she got now it would have been in her self interest to take it and we would have saved money on the recall. > > > > I don't think you should be paid off under these circumstances. She broke the law. She served prison time. She should have lost her position as MP with no financial compensation. Paying off criminals isn't good for anyone. > > Well unless we did change the rules the idea would be there isn't a financial incentive to hang on and force a recall. Assuming Fiona did it just for the money we would have saved £500K minus a months wages and Peterborough would have had to put up with her as their MP for less time. I was thinking of it as a lesser evil. > > I'm reluctant about forcing elected people charged with minor things out of politics without the agreement of their electorate. In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut. Doing it this way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy.
I would like any MP who gets porridge time, even a week, after the due process has been followed, to get the push and forfeit any payoff and have their pension deferred until 65, like most employees of the state would. MPs like to think they are important people. They should be held to a higher standard. They are in danger of losing all support from the electorate. They need to try and turn this farce around, quickly.
3 interesting things in that letter from May and some troubling inconsistencies:-
1. Failure to co-operate properly with the inquiry. This seems to bother her most. She certainly spends more of the letter on this aspect, than anything else.
2. No other credible explanation for the leak. Hmm.... That suggests that the inquiry has not found actual evidence but is fingering Williamson through a process of elimination.
3. The reference to “compelling evidence”. Is this something other than no. 2? If so, why the need to refer to no. 2 at all.p? Just say that there is compelling evidence and sack. So I wonder how compelling it really is.
It reads to me that what has really bothered her and the Cabinet Secretary is how Williamson has responded to the inquiry; they have assumed that this must mean guilt but don’t have any actual evidence for this and hope that by closing this matter down this will be an end of it.
Who knows? But I remain troubled by the Huawei decision, which seems stupidly reckless and ill-thought through. For a former Home Secretary she does not really have much nous about why it is stupid to assume that a deeply authoritarian Communist state should be trusted with key infrastructure.
> Well unless we did change the rules the idea would be there isn't a financial incentive to hang on and force a recall. Assuming Fiona did it just for the money we would have saved £500K minus a months wages and Peterborough would have had to put up with her as their MP for less time. I was thinking of it as a lesser > I'm reluctant about forcing elected people charged with minor things out of politics without the agreement of their electorate. In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut. Doing it this way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy.
I would like any MP who gets porridge time, even a week, after the due process has been followed, to get the push and forfeit any payoff and have their pension deferred until 65, like most employees of the state would.
MPs like to think they are important people. They should be held to a higher standard. They are in danger of losing all support from the electorate. They need to try and turn this farce around, quickly.
Maybe this is my problem then... I want us elevated to that standard, rather than bringing them down to ours.
Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them.
Yes, but what other situations would not be clear cut when they involve prison time? The recall process doesn't trigger until after appeals, so have the same in the case of any custodial sentence - that way anyone who is in fact innocent and is willing to fight it is not turfed out until then.
Many times people have been arrested protesting when protest was justified, as an example. Can you not think of any examples in history where people were made criminals for trying to do the right thing?
The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way.
Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them.
> @JackW said: > BBC reporting that the Met Police are not presently investigating a serious breach of the Official Secrets Act : > > "Clearly if at any stage we receive any information that would suggest criminal offences have been committed, then we will look into that." > > Are they waiting for a 999 call from 10 Downing Street?
Surprised no one from the Labour Party has made a complaint about this breach of the OSA to try and stir things up...
> @TheJezziah said: > > @TheJezziah > > > @TheJezziah said: > > > > > > @TheJezziah said: > > > > > > > > > > I. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > . > > > > his way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy. > > > > I would like any MP who gets porridge time, even a week, after the due process has been followed, to get the push and forfeit any payoff and have their pension deferred until 65, like most employees of the state would. > > MPs like to think they are important people. They should be held to a higher standard. They are in danger of losing all support from the electorate. They need to try and turn this farce around, quickly. > > Maybe this is my problem then... I want us elevated to that standard, rather than bringing them down to ours.
I'm not sure what you want. They should be held to the same standard as most of the rest of the population. I don't know of any job at my level where I could get an 11 month and 29 day prison sentence and walk straight back into my job. I'd be lucky to keep mine if I got a week in the nick. Politicians are so far away from us that they have lost touch with reality.
If I understand this thread correctly, Grayling signed up the ferry companies to start from March 29 in the absence of a deal agreed with the EU rather than from when No Deal actually kicks in, if it does. So we need to pay for 6 months of ferries during which we will definitely not be in a No Deal situation. We may have No Deal after six months, in which case another contract will need to be arranged.
It takes a special level of incompetence to pay compensation to an injured party for unfairly awarding a contract for a service that never gets delivered, then be sued for compensation by another party because of that compensation to the first party AND STILL pay for the service that never got delivered.
Oddschecker tells me Andrea Leadsom just came in to 1.02 from 2.9 on betfair exchange as 'next minister to leave'. Is that just a function of a thin market or is something else going on?
> @Quincel said: > The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way.
Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then )
3 interesting things in that letter from May and some troubling inconsistencies:-
1. Failure to co-operate properly with the inquiry. This seems to bother her most. She certainly spends more of the letter on this aspect, than anything else.
2. No other credible explanation for the leak. Hmm.... That suggests that the inquiry has not found actual evidence but is fingering Williamson through a process of elimination.
3. The reference to “compelling evidence”. Is this something other than no. 2? If so, why the need to refer to no. 2 at all.p? Just say that there is compelling evidence and sack. So I wonder how compelling it really is.
It reads to me that what has really bothered her and the Cabinet Secretary is how Williamson has responded to the inquiry; they have assumed that this must mean guilt but don’t have any actual evidence for this and hope that by closing this matter down this will be an end of it.
Who knows? But I remain troubled by the Huawei decision, which seems stupidly reckless and ill-thought through. For a former Home Secretary she does not really have much nous about why it is stupid to assume that a deeply authoritarian Communist state should be trusted with key infrastructure.
The implication from 1. is that he failed to turn phone etc over. Adverse inferences and all that.
> @GIN1138 said: > > @JackW said: > > BBC reporting that the Met Police are not presently investigating a serious breach of the Official Secrets Act : > > > > "Clearly if at any stage we receive any information that would suggest criminal offences have been committed, then we will look into that." > > > > Are they waiting for a 999 call from 10 Downing Street? > > Surprised no one from the Labour Party has made a complaint about this breach of the OSA to try and stir things up...
The Labour Party are unsure as to whether to hold a public vote on the issue?
> @Ishmael_Z said: > Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them. > > Does he actually have any? > > Two. He is also a patron of the World Owl Trust.
> @solarflare said: > > @Ishmael_Z said: > > Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them. > > > > Does he actually have any? > > > > Two. He is also a patron of the World Owl Trust. > > You WOT?
> @matt said: > 3 interesting things in that letter from May and some troubling inconsistencies:- > > 1. Failure to co-operate properly with the inquiry. This seems to bother her most. She certainly spends more of the letter on this aspect, than anything else. > > 2. No other credible explanation for the leak. Hmm.... That suggests that the inquiry has not found actual evidence but is fingering Williamson through a process of elimination. > > 3. The reference to “compelling evidence”. Is this something other than no. 2? If so, why the need to refer to no. 2 at all.p? Just say that there is compelling evidence and sack. So I wonder how compelling it really is. > > It reads to me that what has really bothered her and the Cabinet Secretary is how Williamson has responded to the inquiry; they have assumed that this must mean guilt but don’t have any actual evidence for this and hope that by closing this matter down this will be an end of it. > > Who knows? But I remain troubled by the Huawei decision, which seems stupidly reckless and ill-thought through. For a former Home Secretary she does not really have much nous about why it is stupid to assume that a deeply authoritarian Communist state should be trusted with key infrastructure. > > The implication from 1. is that he failed to turn phone etc over. Adverse inferences and all that.
The problem with that is there are perhaps other equally compelling reasons why he may not have wanted to turn his phone over - such as evidence he was conspiring against May and manoeuvring for the top job. That would certainly be a good reason why he didn't want anyone looking through his phone.
But of course that is just speculation. What is clear at the moment is that nothing they have revealed comes anywhere near to a clear cut case that he was the one responsible.
That's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I give confidential security briefings. You leak. He has been charged under section 2a of the Official Secrets Act.
Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt says the prime minister had no alternative but to sack Gavin Williamson as defence secretary.
Speaking as he arrived in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, Mr Hunt said: "On a personal level I'm very sorry about what happened for Gavin's sake but given the gravity of the situation there was no other alternative outcome."
> @MarqueeMark said: > > @solarflare said: > > > @Ishmael_Z said: > > > Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them. > > > > > > Does he actually have any? > > > > > > Two. He is also a patron of the World Owl Trust. > > > > You WOT? > > Is he required to be a twit too....?
> @GIN1138 said: > > @Quincel said: > > The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way. > > Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then )
Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
> @dr_spyn said: > > @MarqueeMark said: > > > @solarflare said: > > > > @Ishmael_Z said: > > > > Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them. > > > > > > > > Does he actually have any? > > > > > > > > Two. He is also a patron of the World Owl Trust. > > > > > > You WOT? > > > > Is he required to be a twit too....? > > ta, da. boom tish.
> @Richard_Tyndall said: >What is clear at the moment is that nothing they have revealed comes anywhere near to a clear cut case that he was the one responsible.
And the important implication from that is less that he may be incorrectly accused, but that the true culprit escapes punishment.
Well, the tempo has picked up a bit this evening, hasn't it? Just thought I would mention the surprise retirement of Ruby Walsh, part of a golden age of jump jockeys along with Sir AP McCoy and Richard Johnson among others.
Peterborough ? This is make or break for the Brexit Party - pick the right candidate and with luck they could win the seat and put the electoral cat among the political pigeons. It's also significant for CUK - can they make any impression ?
The CON/LAB vote share was 95% in 2017 - it'll be interesting to see what happens to that.
> @stodge said: > Evening all > > Well, the tempo has picked up a bit this evening, hasn't it? Just thought I would mention the surprise retirement of Ruby Walsh, part of a golden age of jump jockeys along with Sir AP McCoy and Richard Johnson among others. > > Peterborough ? This is make or break for the Brexit Party - pick the right candidate and with luck they could win the seat and put the electoral cat among the political pigeons. It's also significant for CUK - can they make any impression ? > > The CON/LAB vote share was 95% in 2017 - it'll be interesting to see what happens to that.
CUK must be worried that running in Peterborough might help the Brexit Party.
If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted.
> @stodge said: > Evening all > > Well, the tempo has picked up a bit this evening, hasn't it? Just thought I would mention the surprise retirement of Ruby Walsh, part of a golden age of jump jockeys along with Sir AP McCoy and Richard Johnson among others. > > Peterborough ? This is make or break for the Brexit Party - pick the right candidate and with luck they could win the seat and put the electoral cat among the political pigeons. It's also significant for CUK - can they make any impression ? > > The CON/LAB vote share was 95% in 2017 - it'll be interesting to see what happens to that.
It's rubbish territory for CHUK, but they have to run or basically admit they are frit. Also the LDs are running, and if they beat them that would be something for the 'We are the real alternative' narrative they want.
> @OblitusSumMe said: > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > >What is clear at the moment is that nothing they have revealed comes anywhere near to a clear cut case that he was the one responsible. > > And the important implication from that is less that he may be incorrectly accused, but that the true culprit escapes punishment.
Absolutely.
I profoundly disagree with the direction May seems to be going with the 5G stuff but you simply cannot have such critically important forums for our national security subject to leaks. If Williamson is responsible even indirectly then he needs the book thrown at him. My fear is that - on the current publicly available evidence - this looks rather like an attempt to throw someone to the wolves to try and close down any further investigation.
> @Quincel said: > > @GIN1138 said: > > > @Quincel said: > > > The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way. > > > > Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then ) > > Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
Farage is chicken! The Brexit party is a vanity project to massage his ego, it is all talk and a husk of an organisation. It is a pity the Tory press boost him and the things he is associated with as they do. Indeed, given the connection between Farage and Trump I am surprised more is not made of that by those who are not seduced by his alleged charisma.
Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them.
If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted.
Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time.
But it's slightly tricky. If he doesn't stand then he'll be accused of bottling it. If he stands and wins, then he'll have to give up his MEP seat - am I right in thinking that just shuffles up the next Brexit Party candidate from the SE list, rather than causing a by-election? And if he stands and loses, then sure, he's done that before... but it would dent the image of his new party.
> @Cyclefree said: > 3 interesting things in that letter from May and some troubling inconsistencies:- > > 1. Failure to co-operate properly with the inquiry. This seems to bother her most. She certainly spends more of the letter on this aspect, than anything else. > > 2. No other credible explanation for the leak. Hmm.... That suggests that the inquiry has not found actual evidence but is fingering Williamson through a process of elimination. > > 3. The reference to “compelling evidence”. Is this something other than no. 2? If so, why the need to refer to no. 2 at all.p? Just say that there is compelling evidence and sack. So I wonder how compelling it really is. > > It reads to me that what has really bothered her and the Cabinet Secretary is how Williamson has responded to the inquiry; they have assumed that this must mean guilt but don’t have any actual evidence for this and hope that by closing this matter down this will be an end of it. > > Who knows? But I remain troubled by the Huawei decision, which seems stupidly reckless and ill-thought through. For a former Home Secretary she does not really have much nous about why it is stupid to assume that a deeply authoritarian Communist state should be trusted with key infrastructure.
I don't think 2 and 3 are quite so separate. My reading of the PM's letter is that she showed Williamson Sedwill's evidence and, regardless of the strength or otherwise of the evidence, Williamson didn't have a better 'big boys did it and ran away' leak story.
Unless and until we see the evidence we can't really make a call on the PM's judgement as to the strength of the evidence. But it was strong enough for a weak PM to bin her DefSec and campaign manager on the eve of local elections, so it can't have been complete fluff.
I think Williamson's letter scuppers him, doesn't it? Rather than accepting there will be no "thorough and formal inquiry" he should be strenuously demanding one, both to clear his name and to expose the real dastardly villain who, on his hypothesis, is currently stroking his white cat and chortling to himself.
> @williamglenn said: > If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted. > > Some opposition MPs are saying that already. > > https://twitter.com/peterkyle/status/1123663085913497600
Yeah but far more importantly a member of the public is.
> @El_Capitano said: > Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now. > > Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time. > > But it's slightly tricky. If he doesn't stand then he'll be accused of bottling it. If he stands and wins, then he'll have to give up his MEP seat - am I right in thinking that just shuffles up the next Brexit Party candidate from the SE list, rather than causing a by-election? And if he stands and loses, then sure, he's done that before... but it would dent the image of his new party.
I agree, but if someone else stands and loses it dents the party about the same. And he's their best bet, imho.
Apparently he's just given a radio interview and said he won't run though. Hmm.
> @The_Taxman said: > > @Quincel said: > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > > @Quincel said: > > > > The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way. > > > > > > Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then ) > > > > Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now. > > Farage is chicken! The Brexit party is a vanity project to massage his ego, it is all talk and a husk of an organisation. It is a pity the Tory press boost him and the things he is associated with as they do. Indeed, given the connection between Farage and Trump I am surprised more is not made of that by those who are not seduced by his alleged charisma.
Did you see the reaction to Nigel by 2000 people in Newport last night? He was greeted like a rock star.
Without the dead weight of UKIP holding him back I think the skies the limit for Farage and BP...
<em> @Richard_Tyndall said: I profoundly disagree with the direction May seems to be going with the 5G stuff but you simply cannot have such critically important forums for our national security subject to leaks. If Williamson is responsible even indirectly then he needs the book thrown at him. My fear is that - on the current publicly available evidence - this looks rather like an attempt to throw someone to the wolves to try and close down any further investigation. </em>
Quite likely to be a shared interest between Williamson and May not to have Williamson investigated, on my reading.
> @The_Taxman said: > > @Quincel said: > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > > @Quincel said: > > > > The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way. > > > > > > Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then ) > > > > Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now. > > Farage is chicken! The Brexit party is a vanity project to massage his ego, it is all talk and a husk of an organisation. It is a pity the Tory press boost him and the things he is associated with as they do. Indeed, given the connection between Farage and Trump I am surprised more is not made of that by those who are not seduced by his alleged charisma.
Much as I dislike Farage, I think it's a bit unfair to suggest a man who has run in 7 Parliamentary elections is scared of fighting elections.
BBC reporting LibDems call on Met Police to open a criminal investigation :
Liberal Democrat deputy leader Jo Swinson has asked the police to open an investigation into whether Gavin Williamson breached the Official Secrets Act.
In a letter to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, she wrote that she wanted an investigation "given that the leak originated from the National Security Council and related to highly-sensitive information".
The letter was also signed by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable and MP Sir Ed Davey.
> @Omnium said: > > @williamglenn said: > > If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted. > > > > Some opposition MPs are saying that already. > > > > https://twitter.com/peterkyle/status/1123663085913497600 > > Yeah but far more importantly a member of the public is.
Again though the problem is that there is every likelihood that the CPS will look at the scant available evidence and say there is no case to answer. That then leaves May looking like she has acted rashly or even dangerously by leaving a potential real leaker still in the organisation.
Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time.
It actually isn’t, for a start the part of Peterborough in the constituency is about a quarter foreign born. The rest of the City of Peterborough is better but not actually in the boundaries. There are a lot of seats which have better demographics.
But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run.
> @JackW said: > BBC reporting LibDems call on Met Police to open a criminal investigation : > > Liberal Democrat deputy leader Jo Swinson has asked the police to open an investigation into whether Gavin Williamson breached the Official Secrets Act. > > In a letter to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, she wrote that she wanted an investigation "given that the leak originated from the National Security Council and related to highly-sensitive information". > > The letter was also signed by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable and MP Sir Ed Davey.
Whilst I agree that the Police need to look at this, I never like it when politicians are active in trying to initiate investigations. It will always look political and we need to keep politics and Police investigations as far apart as possible.
> @Omnium said: > > @williamglenn said: > > If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted. > > > > Some opposition MPs are saying that already. > > > > https://twitter.com/peterkyle/status/1123663085913497600 > > Yeah but far more importantly a member of the public is.
And incidentally May has potentially put a man who might be trialled for treason in the position of Defence Secretary. I've long supported May, thick (that'll be me) and thin. A few weeks ago I finally worked out that she needed to step aside. She needs to do so, and with no delay.
If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted.
> @Quincel said: > > It's rubbish territory for CHUK, but they have to run or basically admit they are frit. Also the LDs are running, and if they beat them that would be something for the 'We are the real alternative' narrative they want.
The best LD performance in recent times was just shy of 20% in 2010. The vote collapsed in 2015 and was only 3% in 2017 so promising it's not and the party has never been second in the constituency.
The Con-Lab vote share was 95% last time when the national share for the two parties was 83%. Now that share has fallen to sub 60% it's an ideal time for insurgent parties to make inroads. The question for me is whether the Brexit Party can find the right candidate and get into the fight and that will mean getting a presence in the constituency quickly.
As an aside, one third of the council is up for election with the Conservatives defending an overall majority of two (31-29 for all other parties). The 20 seats being defended are CON 10 LAB 6 LD 2 Others 2.
> @JackW said: > BBC reporting LibDems call on Met Police to open a criminal investigation : > > Liberal Democrat deputy leader Jo Swinson has asked the police to open an investigation into whether Gavin Williamson breached the Official Secrets Act. > > In a letter to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, she wrote that she wanted an investigation "given that the leak originated from the National Security Council and related to highly-sensitive information". > > The letter was also signed by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable and MP Sir Ed Davey.
Good for them. Follow the evidence wherever it may lead etc...
Maybe we'll finish up with a by election in South Staffordshire? The South Staffs parliamentary constituency voted to leave by 64% to 45% of course...
Could turn into a straight Con/Brexit Party fight?
> @brokenwheel said: > Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now. > > Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time. > > > It actually isn’t, for a start the part of Peterborough in the constituency is about a quarter foreign born. There are a lot of seats which have better demographics. > > But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run.
How many seats are more than 60% leave vote in 2016? If Farage can only win in perfect conditions then that's not good enough. This is plenty fertile territory compared to your average seat.
> @oxfordsimon said: > > @JackW said: > > BBC reporting LibDems call on Met Police to open a criminal investigation : > > > > Liberal Democrat deputy leader Jo Swinson has asked the police to open an investigation into whether Gavin Williamson breached the Official Secrets Act. > > > > In a letter to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, she wrote that she wanted an investigation "given that the leak originated from the National Security Council and related to highly-sensitive information". > > > > The letter was also signed by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable and MP Sir Ed Davey. > > Whilst I agree that the Police need to look at this, I never like it when politicians are active in trying to initiate investigations. It will always look political and we need to keep politics and Police investigations as far apart as possible.
It's political if the Met don't investigate. What is Cressida Dick waiting for? .. The Prime Minister has openly said in terms that there is compelling evidence that Williamson has breached the OSA in a most serious fashion.
Does Cressida Dick think the Prime Minister is not a serious witness to a crime?
> @GIN1138 said: > > @The_Taxman said: > > > @Quincel said: > > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > > > @Quincel said: > > > > > The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way. > > > > > > > > Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then ) > > > > > > Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now. > > > > Farage is chicken! The Brexit party is a vanity project to massage his ego, it is all talk and a husk of an organisation. It is a pity the Tory press boost him and the things he is associated with as they do. Indeed, given the connection between Farage and Trump I am surprised more is not made of that by those who are not seduced by his alleged charisma. > > Did you see the reaction to Nigel by 2000 people in Newport last night? He was greeted like a rock star. > > Without the dead weight of UKIP holding him back I think the skies the limit for Farage and BP...
I doubt it. Farage might have the support of 2K of people but he is preaching to the converted.
I suppose looking at it from a different angle he might have found standing in two elections overlapping as they will a little difficult. Indeed if he gets elected as an MEP, he would probably prefer that financially to being an MP anyway.
Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time.
It actually isn’t, for a start the part of Peterborough in the constituency is about a quarter foreign born. The rest of the City of Peterborough is better but not actually in the boundaries. There are a lot of seats which have better demographics.
But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run.
Presumably Farage doesn’t want to run himself as he wants to lead the party in Brussels - but given he’s announced a rally in Peterborough next week, he must have a local candidate up his sleeve already. Anyone know any Brexit-supporting local businessmen or councillors?
> @Richard_Tyndall said: > > @Omnium said: > > > @williamglenn said: > > > If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted. > > > > > > Some opposition MPs are saying that already. > > > > > > https://twitter.com/peterkyle/status/1123663085913497600 > > > > Yeah but far more importantly a member of the public is. > > Again though the problem is that there is every likelihood that the CPS will look at the scant available evidence and say there is no case to answer. That then leaves May looking like she has acted rashly or even dangerously by leaving a potential real leaker still in the organisation.
I suspect there is ample evidence. (Assuming of course he's guilty, which his sacking suggests, his general reputation suggests, and the sort of thing that one may have heard about him.)
What's really interesting is whether he framed Fox or not. Why did Fox have to issue denials?
The journalists concerned may also have broken the law.
> @Sandpit said: > Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now. > > Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time. > > > It actually isn’t, for a start the part of Peterborough in the constituency is about a quarter foreign born. The rest of the City of Peterborough is better but not actually in the boundaries. There are a lot of seats which have better demographics. > > But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run. > > Presumably Farage doesn’t want to run himself as he wants to lead the party in Brussels - but given he’s announced a rally in Peterborough next week, he must have a local candidate up his sleeve already. Anyone know any Brexit-supporting local businessmen or councillors?
So who is the greater threat to national security - the person responsible for the leak or those who want to place an IT contract with the Chinese secret service?
> @JackW said: > > @oxfordsimon said: > > > @JackW said: > > > BBC reporting LibDems call on Met Police to open a criminal investigation : > > > > > > Liberal Democrat deputy leader Jo Swinson has asked the police to open an investigation into whether Gavin Williamson breached the Official Secrets Act. > > > > > > In a letter to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, she wrote that she wanted an investigation "given that the leak originated from the National Security Council and related to highly-sensitive information". > > > > > > The letter was also signed by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable and MP Sir Ed Davey. > > > > Whilst I agree that the Police need to look at this, I never like it when politicians are active in trying to initiate investigations. It will always look political and we need to keep politics and Police investigations as far apart as possible. > > It's political if the Met don't investigate. What is Cressida Dick waiting for? .. The Prime Minister has openly said in terms that there is compelling evidence that Williamson has breached the OSA in a most serious fashion. > > Does Cressida Dick think the Prime Minister is not a serious witness to a crime?
Different use of the word 'politics' I think.
Politicians should avoid getting involved in the criminal justice system as far as possible. That system should never be used in a way that could be interpreted as a way of scoring a political point.
> > BBC reporting LibDems call on Met Police to open a criminal investigation :
> >
> > Liberal Democrat deputy leader Jo Swinson has asked the police to open an investigation into whether Gavin Williamson breached the Official Secrets Act.
> >
> > In a letter to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, she wrote that she wanted an investigation "given that the leak originated from the National Security Council and related to highly-sensitive information".
> >
> > The letter was also signed by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable and MP Sir Ed Davey.
>
> Whilst I agree that the Police need to look at this, I never like it when politicians are active in trying to initiate investigations. It will always look political and we need to keep politics and Police investigations as far apart as possible.
It's political if the Met don't investigate. What is Cressida Dick waiting for? .. The Prime Minister has openly said in terms that there is compelling evidence that Williamson has breached the OSA in a most serious fashion.
Does Cressida Dick think the Prime Minister is not a serious witness to a crime?
> Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
>
> Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time.
>
>
> It actually isn’t, for a start the part of Peterborough in the constituency is about a quarter foreign born. The rest of the City of Peterborough is better but not actually in the boundaries. There are a lot of seats which have better demographics.
>
> But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run.
>
> Presumably Farage doesn’t want to run himself as he wants to lead the party in Brussels - but given he’s announced a rally in Peterborough next week, he must have a local candidate up his sleeve already. Anyone know any Brexit-supporting local businessmen or councillors?
Gorgeous ?
Nah, let him stand on his own and take a few more votes off Labour. With a large field, 25% could win this.
> > > If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted.
> > >
> > > Some opposition MPs are saying that already.
> > Yeah but far more importantly a member of the public is.
>
> Again though the problem is that there is every likelihood that the CPS will look at the scant available evidence and say there is no case to answer. That then leaves May looking like she has acted rashly or even dangerously by leaving a potential real leaker still in the organisation.
I suspect there is ample evidence. (Assuming of course he's guilty, which his sacking suggests, his general reputation suggests, and the sort of thing that one may have heard about him.)
What's really interesting is whether he framed Fox or not. Why did Fox have to issue denials?
The journalists concerned may also have broken the law.
They won't say no case to answer, they will say not in the public interest to prosecute.
> @Sandpit said: > Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now. > > Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time. > > > It actually isn’t, for a start the part of Peterborough in the constituency is about a quarter foreign born. The rest of the City of Peterborough is better but not actually in the boundaries. There are a lot of seats which have better demographics. > > But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run. > > Presumably Farage doesn’t want to run himself as he wants to lead the party in Brussels - but given he’s announced a rally in Peterborough next week, he must have a local candidate up his sleeve already. Anyone know any Brexit-supporting local businessmen or councillors?
But Fararge wants, and there's a very good chance that, UK MEPs will only exist fora few months. And imagine how much more publicity his trademark rants would get if they were in the HoC than the EU Parliament?
New International Development Secretary Rory Stewart says he believes the prime minister "made the right decision" in sacking Gavin Williamson.
He said he had known National Security Adviser Mark Sedwill "for many years" and has "full confidence in that investigation".
He added: "I have a lot of confidence in the process he will have conducted. I have a lot of confidence in the prime minister and I'm sure that they made the right decision."
On his new role, he said: "I'm absolutely delighted. Personally for me I've spent a lot of my life working abroad... It's a chance to engage in some of the most pressing issues in the world."
> Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
>
> Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time.
>
>
> It actually isn’t, for a start the part of Peterborough in the constituency is about a quarter foreign born. There are a lot of seats which have better demographics.
>
> But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run.
How many seats are more than 60% leave vote in 2016? If Farage can only win in perfect conditions then that's not good enough. This is plenty fertile territory compared to your average seat.
Well over a hundred, including Stoke Central...
It’s not a simple case of mobilising the Leave vote, the people who will actually vote TBP or UKIP is not exactly the same demographic.
On whether Williamson should face trial I should think there's a difference between there being sufficient reason to reasonably conclude he was responsible and being able to prove it definitively. Which of course he would use to protest innocence even if he was guilty, but it will be interesting if it is revealed he has been hard done by.
> Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
>
> Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time.
>
>
> It actually isn’t, for a start the part of Peterborough in the constituency is about a quarter foreign born. The rest of the City of Peterborough is better but not actually in the boundaries. There are a lot of seats which have better demographics.
>
> But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run.
>
> Presumably Farage doesn’t want to run himself as he wants to lead the party in Brussels - but given he’s announced a rally in Peterborough next week, he must have a local candidate up his sleeve already. Anyone know any Brexit-supporting local businessmen or councillors?
But Fararge wants, and there's a very good chance that, UK MEPs will only exist fora few months. And imagine how much more publicity his trademark rants would get if they were in the HoC than the EU Parliament?
Half of me agrees with you, but the other half remembers he’s got a divorce to pay for.
> @TheJezziah said: > Yes, but what other situations would not be clear cut when they involve prison time? The recall process doesn't trigger until after appeals, so have the same in the case of any custodial sentence - that way anyone who is in fact innocent and is willing to fight it is not turfed out until then. > > Many times people have been arrested protesting when protest was justified, as an example. Can you not think of any examples in history where people were made criminals for trying to do the right thing?
Comments
> > @ydoethur said:
>
> > > @ydoethur said:
>
> > Who was the last cabinet minister to be actually openly sacked rather than going through a formal exchange of letters pretending they had resigned? Charles Clarke?
>
> >
>
> > Osborne?
>
> >
>
> > At a change of Prime Minister, all office holders automatically lose their posts. So no, he wasn't sacked, he just wasn't reappointed.
>
>
>
> I thought she refused him the option of resigning.
>
> Since he had no office, what could he have resigned?
>
> Any progress in blockquote?
I emailed them.
They're working on it
Seriously considering a change of commenting system.
> > @ydoethur said:
> > Who was the last cabinet minister to be actually openly sacked rather than going through a formal exchange of letters pretending they had resigned? Charles Clarke?
>
> Osborne?
Good question. Damian Green was close - he did not agree to resign, he was instructed to resign, which is so obviously a sacking even the headline writers could use that word
Perhaps he hopes to basque in the reflected glory.
> > @Mysticrose said:
> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-48123355
> >
> > Bercow acted very fast. So she's no longer an MP. Wow.
>
> That's the law - which she should have known about...
>
> The only people I feel sorry for are her staff - who have also lost their jobs.
Have a heart, Oxford. Can you imagine what it must feel like to have 19,261 people telling you to fuck off?
> > @dyedwoolie said:
> > Change UK need to stand in Peterborough, test the remain alliance vote
>
> It isn't, and never has been, a good place for liberal centrists. Even in 1983 Labour stayed in second place over the SDP/Liberal Alliance.
They cannot keep ducking elections.
> > @TheJezziah said:
>
> > > @TheJezziah said:
>
>
> > She is a trained solicitor (though not for much longer in all likelihood), an elected representative - and a convicted criminal.
>
> > There shouldn't be a 12 month lower limit for forcing convicted MPs from office - it should be ANY prison time. No ifs, no buts. Yes, the appeal process should be allowed to play out. But once concluded, any prison time should immediately lead to the removal of that MP from office.
>
>
> > I cannot see any acceptable reason for her to have not resigned - other than for personal gain. And that is not an honourable course of action on her part.
>
>
> > The video she released did nothing to help her cause. Nor did the fact that her attempted appeal was so poorly prepared that it was immediately dismissed.
>
> >
> >
>
> > I do want the law changed so that convicted politicians who get any prison time are removed from public life. Onasanya should have resigned as soon as her appeal failed. Her decision not to do that has cost over £500K
>
> >
>
> > We cannot legally compel people to act honourably, I completely agree she hasn't though. My objection to a stronger rule might be a popular politician who in a rather more unfortunate or justified set of circumstances ends up on the wrong side of the rule. Although maybe I am thinking a bit too much about worst case scenario...
>
> >
>
> > Maybe politicians who are very likely to be recalled could be offered a financial incentive to step down, if she'd been offered a months more wages than she got now it would have been in her self interest to take it and we would have saved money on the recall.
>
>
>
> I don't think you should be paid off under these circumstances. She broke the law. She served prison time. She should have lost her position as MP with no financial compensation. Paying off criminals isn't good for anyone.
>
> Well unless we did change the rules the idea would be there isn't a financial incentive to hang on and force a recall. Assuming Fiona did it just for the money we would have saved £500K minus a months wages and Peterborough would have had to put up with her as their MP for less time. I was thinking of it as a lesser evil.
>
> I'm reluctant about forcing elected people charged with minor things out of politics without the agreement of their electorate. In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut. Doing it this way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy.
I am not saying that any conviction forces the removal of the MP - just any conviction that involves a sentence of any period in prison.
The 12 month limit is utterly arbitrary and doesn't serve justice or democracy.
Prison is not a minor sentence. It shows a significant level of criminal activity.
Presumably any member of the public could walk into a police station and make a complaint about this alleged crime?
Anyone on PB want to do it?
'Dear Prime Minister
You asked me to resign my office, and this I most willingly do.'
The sarcasm drips from every syllable, doesn't it?!
> > @TheJezziah said:
>
> > > @TheJezziah said:
>
>
> > She is a trained solicitor (though not for much longer in all likelihood), an elected representative - and a convicted criminal.
>
> > There shouldn't be a 12 month lower limit for forcing convicted MPs from office - it should be ANY prison time. No ifs, no buts. Yes, the appeal process should be allowed to play out. But once concluded, any prison time should immediately lead to the removal of that MP from office.
>
>
> > I cannot see any acceptable reason for her to have not resigned - other than for personal gain. And that is not an honourable course of action on her part.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The video she released did nothing to help her cause. Nor did the fact that her attempted appeal was so poorly prepared that it was immediately dismissed.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I do want the law changed so that convicted politicians who get any prison time are removed from public life. Onasanya should have resigned as soon as her appeal failed. Her decision not to do that has cost over £500K
>
> >
>
> > We cannot legally compel people to act honourably, I completely agree she hasn't though. My objection to a stronger rule might be a popular politician who in a rather more unfortunate or justified set of circumstances ends up on the wrong side of the rule. Although maybe I am thinking a bit too much about worst case scenario...
>
> >
>
> > Maybe politicians who are very likely to be recalled could be offered a financial incentive to step down, if she'd been offered a months more wages than she got now it would have been in her self interest to take it and we would have saved money on the recall.
>
>
>
> I don't think you should be paid off under these circumstances. She broke the law. She served prison time. She should have lost her position as MP with no financial compensation. Paying off criminals isn't good for anyone.
>
> Well unless we did change the rules the idea would be there isn't a financial incentive to hang on and force a recall. Assuming Fiona did it just for the money w
>
> I'm reluctant about forcing elected people charged with minor things out of politics without the agreement of their electorate. In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut. Doing it this way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy.
What's not clear cut about it? If she wasn't setentenced to jail time that might not be clear cut, but she was. Also, it was not a minor offence, she lied to the police, repeatedly.
Seems pretty clear cut to me - even a short custodial sentence seems to me to be a reasonable cutting off point.
> > @AndyJS said:
> > > @dyedwoolie said:
> > > Change UK need to stand in Peterborough, test the remain alliance vote
> >
> > It isn't, and never has been, a good place for liberal centrists. Even in 1983 Labour stayed in second place over the SDP/Liberal Alliance.
>
> They cannot keep ducking elections.
I agree, they have to stand.
> Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them.
One is minded to reflect that Johnathan Aitken's daughter Victoria was about to give evidence on his behalf when the libel trial he instigated against the "Guardian" and "Granada" TV collapsed when it was proved that Aitken's relationship with the truth was marginal.
Prison beckoned for Aitken.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-48123355
>
> Bercow acted very fast. So she's no longer an MP. Wow.
Now circumstances have changed can we have a rerun of that Parliamentary vote that went through by one vote (Ms Onasanya's)
Seems only fair.
> > @JackW said:
> > > @GIN1138 said:
> > > Would be ironic if it's not Brexit that does for Theresa May in the end but Huawei...
> > >
> >
> > Are you betting upto 5Gs on that ?? ..
>
> Will we be seeing a special Peterborough version of your ARSE in due course?
No !! ..
> Just saw the news from Germany.
>
> Chuckle.
What news?
The sentence was 'In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut'
So it was clear cut with Fiona, other situations might not be.
Also to clarify the clear cut was more a reference to it being a bad thing she had done, there can be a difference between criminal guilt and doing something wrong.
> Hasn't the official secrets act been broken (allegedly) by the leak?
>
> Presumably any member of the public could walk into a police station and make a complaint about this alleged crime?
>
> Anyone on PB want to do it?
Could the Telegraph be done for it too?
If Williamson is telling the truth - we need to allow the possibility - the discrepancy might be explained by him being the source of the leak without deliberately leaking the information himself to the Telegraph. So Williamson comes out of the NSC meeting and sounds off about the decision to his advisors, one of whom goes to the Telagraph. Williamson will now claim to his dying day he wasn't the leaker.
This may be implied by Theresa May's letter of dismissal that berates Williamson for a lack of cooperation with the enquiry. Actually it doesn't claim he leaked the information. On a generous interpretation, Williamson may be protecting his staff by refusing to cooperate. It protects him too, however.
> > @TheJezziah said:
>
> > > @TheJezziah said:
>
>
> > > > @TheJezziah said:
>
>
> > > S
>
>
> > >
>
>
> > > .
>
>
> > >
>
>
> > >
>
>
> > > We cannot legally compel people to act honourably, I completely agree she hasn't though. My objection to a stronger rule might be a popular politician who in a rather more unfortunate or justified set of circumstances ends up on the wrong side of the rule. Although maybe I am thinking a bit too much about worst case scenario...
>
>
> > > Maybe politicians who are very likely to be recalled could be offered a financial incentive to step down, if she'd been offered a months more wages than she got now it would have been in her self interest to take it and we would have saved money on the recall.
>
>
> > I don't think you should be paid off under these circumstances. She broke the law. She served prison time. She should have lost her position as MP with no financial compensation. Paying off criminals isn't good for anyone.
>
>
> > Well unless we did change the rules the idea would be there isn't a financial incentive to hang on and force a recall. Assuming Fiona did it just for the money w
>
>
> > I'm reluctant about forcing elected people charged with minor things out of politics without the agreement of their electorate. In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut. Doing it this way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy.
>
>
> What's not clear cut about it? If she wasn't setentenced to jail time that might not be clear cut, but she was. Also, it was not a minor offence, she lied to the police, repeatedly.
>
>
> Seems pretty clear cut to me - even a short custodial sentence seems to me to be a reasonable cutting off point.
>
> It appears my words were not clear cut.
>
> The sentence was 'In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut'
>
> So it was clear cut with Fiona, other situations might not be.
>
> Also to clarify the clear cut was more a reference to it being a bad thing she had done, there can be a difference between criminal guilt and doing something wrong.
Yes, but what other situations would not be clear cut when they involve prison time? The recall process doesn't trigger until after appeals, so have the same in the case of any custodial sentence - that way anyone who is in fact innocent and is willing to fight it is not turfed out until then.
> > @Jonathan said:
> > Just saw the news from Germany.
> >
> > Chuckle.
>
> What news?
https://www.dw.com/en/berlin-museum-returns-maori-and-moriori-remains-to-new-zealand/a-48536886
It's leading all the TV channels' news programmes in Germany
> > @TheJezziah said:
>
> > > @TheJezziah said:
>
>
> > She is a trained solicitor (though not for much longer in all likelihood), an elected representative - and a convicted criminal.
>
>
>
>
> > I cannot see any acceptable reason for her to have not resigned - other than for personal gain. And that is not an honourable course of action on her part.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The video she released did nothing to help her cause. Nor did the fact that her attempted appeal was so poorly prepared that it was immediately dismissed.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > We cannot legally compel people to act honourably, I completely agree she hasn't though. My objection to a stronger rule might be a popular politician who in a rather more unfortunate or justified set of circumstances ends up on the wrong side of the rule. Although maybe I am thinking a bit too much about worst case scenario...
>
> >
>
> > Maybe politicians who are very likely to be recalled could be offered a financial incentive to step down, if she'd been offered a months more wages than she got now it would have been in her self interest to take it and we would have saved money on the recall.
>
>
>
> I don't think you should be paid off under these circumstances. She broke the law. She served prison time. She should have lost her position as MP with no financial compensation. Paying off criminals isn't good for anyone.
>
> Well unless we did change the rules the idea would be there isn't a financial incentive to hang on and force a recall. Assuming Fiona did it just for the money we would have saved £500K minus a months wages and Peterborough would have had to put up with her as their MP for less time. I was thinking of it as a lesser evil.
>
> I'm reluctant about forcing elected people charged with minor things out of politics without the agreement of their electorate. In this situation it was obvious but in other situations it might not be so clear cut. Doing it this way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy.
I would like any MP who gets porridge time, even a week, after the due process has been followed, to get the push and forfeit any payoff and have their pension deferred until 65, like most employees of the state would.
MPs like to think they are important people. They should be held to a higher standard. They are in danger of losing all support from the electorate. They need to try and turn this farce around, quickly.
1. Failure to co-operate properly with the inquiry. This seems to bother her most. She certainly spends more of the letter on this aspect, than anything else.
2. No other credible explanation for the leak. Hmm.... That suggests that the inquiry has not found actual evidence but is fingering Williamson through a process of elimination.
3. The reference to “compelling evidence”. Is this something other than no. 2? If so, why the need to refer to no. 2 at all.p? Just say that there is compelling evidence and sack. So I wonder how compelling it really is.
It reads to me that what has really bothered her and the Cabinet Secretary is how Williamson has responded to the inquiry; they have assumed that this must mean guilt but don’t have any actual evidence for this and hope that by closing this matter down this will be an end of it.
Who knows? But I remain troubled by the Huawei decision, which seems stupidly reckless and ill-thought through. For a former Home Secretary she does not really have much nous about why it is stupid to assume that a deeply authoritarian Communist state should be trusted with key infrastructure.
"Clearly if at any stage we receive any information that would suggest criminal offences have been committed, then we will look into that."
Are they waiting for a 999 call from 10 Downing Street?
> BBC reporting that the Met Police are not presently investigating a serious breach of the Official Secrets Act :
>
> "Clearly if at any stage we receive any information that would suggest criminal offences have been committed, then we will look into that."
>
> Are they waiting for a 999 call from 10 Downing Street?
Surprised no one from the Labour Party has made a complaint about this breach of the OSA to try and stir things up...
> > @TheJezziah
> > > @TheJezziah said:
>
>
> > > > @TheJezziah said:
>
>
> > >
>
>
> > > I.
>
>
> > >
>
>
> > >
>
>
> > > .
>
>
> > .
>
>
> > his way has cost more time and effort but they are the costs of both justice and democracy.
>
>
>
> I would like any MP who gets porridge time, even a week, after the due process has been followed, to get the push and forfeit any payoff and have their pension deferred until 65, like most employees of the state would.
>
> MPs like to think they are important people. They should be held to a higher standard. They are in danger of losing all support from the electorate. They need to try and turn this farce around, quickly.
>
> Maybe this is my problem then... I want us elevated to that standard, rather than bringing them down to ours.
I'm not sure what you want. They should be held to the same standard as most of the rest of the population. I don't know of any job at my level where I could get an 11 month and 29 day prison sentence and walk straight back into my job. I'd be lucky to keep mine if I got a week in the nick.
Politicians are so far away from us that they have lost touch with reality.
It takes a special level of incompetence to pay compensation to an injured party for unfairly awarding a contract for a service that never gets delivered, then be sued for compensation by another party because of that compensation to the first party AND STILL pay for the service that never got delivered.
https://twitter.com/beckie__smith/status/1123560317689180160
I'm not in this market at all.
> The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way.
Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then
> > @JackW said:
> > BBC reporting that the Met Police are not presently investigating a serious breach of the Official Secrets Act :
> >
> > "Clearly if at any stage we receive any information that would suggest criminal offences have been committed, then we will look into that."
> >
> > Are they waiting for a 999 call from 10 Downing Street?
>
> Surprised no one from the Labour Party has made a complaint about this breach of the OSA to try and stir things up...
The Labour Party are unsure as to whether to hold a public vote on the issue?
I can't say he'll be missed.
> Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them.
>
> Does he actually have any?
>
> Two. He is also a patron of the World Owl Trust.
You WOT?
> > @Ishmael_Z said:
> > Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them.
> >
> > Does he actually have any?
> >
> > Two. He is also a patron of the World Owl Trust.
>
> You WOT?
Is he required to be a twit too....?
> 3 interesting things in that letter from May and some troubling inconsistencies:-
>
> 1. Failure to co-operate properly with the inquiry. This seems to bother her most. She certainly spends more of the letter on this aspect, than anything else.
>
> 2. No other credible explanation for the leak. Hmm.... That suggests that the inquiry has not found actual evidence but is fingering Williamson through a process of elimination.
>
> 3. The reference to “compelling evidence”. Is this something other than no. 2? If so, why the need to refer to no. 2 at all.p? Just say that there is compelling evidence and sack. So I wonder how compelling it really is.
>
> It reads to me that what has really bothered her and the Cabinet Secretary is how Williamson has responded to the inquiry; they have assumed that this must mean guilt but don’t have any actual evidence for this and hope that by closing this matter down this will be an end of it.
>
> Who knows? But I remain troubled by the Huawei decision, which seems stupidly reckless and ill-thought through. For a former Home Secretary she does not really have much nous about why it is stupid to assume that a deeply authoritarian Communist state should be trusted with key infrastructure.
>
> The implication from 1. is that he failed to turn phone etc over. Adverse inferences and all that.
The problem with that is there are perhaps other equally compelling reasons why he may not have wanted to turn his phone over - such as evidence he was conspiring against May and manoeuvring for the top job. That would certainly be a good reason why he didn't want anyone looking through his phone.
But of course that is just speculation. What is clear at the moment is that nothing they have revealed comes anywhere near to a clear cut case that he was the one responsible.
I give confidential security briefings.
You leak.
He has been charged under section 2a of the Official Secrets Act.
Yes Minister still nails it.
Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt says the prime minister had no alternative but to sack Gavin Williamson as defence secretary.
Speaking as he arrived in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, Mr Hunt said: "On a personal level I'm very sorry about what happened for Gavin's sake but given the gravity of the situation there was no other alternative outcome."
https://twitter.com/GavinWilliamson/status/1123646864342048769
> > @solarflare said:
> > > @Ishmael_Z said:
> > > Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them.
> > >
> > > Does he actually have any?
> > >
> > > Two. He is also a patron of the World Owl Trust.
> >
> > You WOT?
>
> Is he required to be a twit too....?
ta, da. boom tish.
> > @Quincel said:
> > The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way.
>
> Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then
Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
Made me smile.
> > @MarqueeMark said:
> > > @solarflare said:
> > > > @Ishmael_Z said:
> > > > Does anybody know how good a relationship Williamson has with his kids? Because there have been times I would been tempted to swear on their lives so as to get rid of them.
> > > >
> > > > Does he actually have any?
> > > >
> > > > Two. He is also a patron of the World Owl Trust.
> > >
> > > You WOT?
> >
> > Is he required to be a twit too....?
>
> ta, da. boom tish.
I got better material.
But not for free......
>What is clear at the moment is that nothing they have revealed comes anywhere near to a clear cut case that he was the one responsible.
And the important implication from that is less that he may be incorrectly accused, but that the true culprit escapes punishment.
Well, the tempo has picked up a bit this evening, hasn't it? Just thought I would mention the surprise retirement of Ruby Walsh, part of a golden age of jump jockeys along with Sir AP McCoy and Richard Johnson among others.
Peterborough ? This is make or break for the Brexit Party - pick the right candidate and with luck they could win the seat and put the electoral cat among the political pigeons. It's also significant for CUK - can they make any impression ?
The CON/LAB vote share was 95% in 2017 - it'll be interesting to see what happens to that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXaaR9YlqnE
> Evening all
>
> Well, the tempo has picked up a bit this evening, hasn't it? Just thought I would mention the surprise retirement of Ruby Walsh, part of a golden age of jump jockeys along with Sir AP McCoy and Richard Johnson among others.
>
> Peterborough ? This is make or break for the Brexit Party - pick the right candidate and with luck they could win the seat and put the electoral cat among the political pigeons. It's also significant for CUK - can they make any impression ?
>
> The CON/LAB vote share was 95% in 2017 - it'll be interesting to see what happens to that.
CUK must be worried that running in Peterborough might help the Brexit Party.
> Evening all
>
> Well, the tempo has picked up a bit this evening, hasn't it? Just thought I would mention the surprise retirement of Ruby Walsh, part of a golden age of jump jockeys along with Sir AP McCoy and Richard Johnson among others.
>
> Peterborough ? This is make or break for the Brexit Party - pick the right candidate and with luck they could win the seat and put the electoral cat among the political pigeons. It's also significant for CUK - can they make any impression ?
>
> The CON/LAB vote share was 95% in 2017 - it'll be interesting to see what happens to that.
It's rubbish territory for CHUK, but they have to run or basically admit they are frit. Also the LDs are running, and if they beat them that would be something for the 'We are the real alternative' narrative they want.
> > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> >What is clear at the moment is that nothing they have revealed comes anywhere near to a clear cut case that he was the one responsible.
>
> And the important implication from that is less that he may be incorrectly accused, but that the true culprit escapes punishment.
Absolutely.
I profoundly disagree with the direction May seems to be going with the 5G stuff but you simply cannot have such critically important forums for our national security subject to leaks. If Williamson is responsible even indirectly then he needs the book thrown at him. My fear is that - on the current publicly available evidence - this looks rather like an attempt to throw someone to the wolves to try and close down any further investigation.
> > @GIN1138 said:
> > > @Quincel said:
> > > The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way.
> >
> > Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then
>
> Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
Farage is chicken! The Brexit party is a vanity project to massage his ego, it is all talk and a husk of an organisation. It is a pity the Tory press boost him and the things he is associated with as they do. Indeed, given the connection between Farage and Trump I am surprised more is not made of that by those who are not seduced by his alleged charisma.
https://twitter.com/peterkyle/status/1123663085913497600
But it's slightly tricky. If he doesn't stand then he'll be accused of bottling it. If he stands and wins, then he'll have to give up his MEP seat - am I right in thinking that just shuffles up the next Brexit Party candidate from the SE list, rather than causing a by-election? And if he stands and loses, then sure, he's done that before... but it would dent the image of his new party.
> 3 interesting things in that letter from May and some troubling inconsistencies:-
>
> 1. Failure to co-operate properly with the inquiry. This seems to bother her most. She certainly spends more of the letter on this aspect, than anything else.
>
> 2. No other credible explanation for the leak. Hmm.... That suggests that the inquiry has not found actual evidence but is fingering Williamson through a process of elimination.
>
> 3. The reference to “compelling evidence”. Is this something other than no. 2? If so, why the need to refer to no. 2 at all.p? Just say that there is compelling evidence and sack. So I wonder how compelling it really is.
>
> It reads to me that what has really bothered her and the Cabinet Secretary is how Williamson has responded to the inquiry; they have assumed that this must mean guilt but don’t have any actual evidence for this and hope that by closing this matter down this will be an end of it.
>
> Who knows? But I remain troubled by the Huawei decision, which seems stupidly reckless and ill-thought through. For a former Home Secretary she does not really have much nous about why it is stupid to assume that a deeply authoritarian Communist state should be trusted with key infrastructure.
I don't think 2 and 3 are quite so separate. My reading of the PM's letter is that she showed Williamson Sedwill's evidence and, regardless of the strength or otherwise of the evidence, Williamson didn't have a better 'big boys did it and ran away' leak story.
Unless and until we see the evidence we can't really make a call on the PM's judgement as to the strength of the evidence. But it was strong enough for a weak PM to bin her DefSec and campaign manager on the eve of local elections, so it can't have been complete fluff.
> If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted.
>
> Some opposition MPs are saying that already.
>
> https://twitter.com/peterkyle/status/1123663085913497600
Yeah but far more importantly a member of the public is.
> Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
>
> Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time.
>
> But it's slightly tricky. If he doesn't stand then he'll be accused of bottling it. If he stands and wins, then he'll have to give up his MEP seat - am I right in thinking that just shuffles up the next Brexit Party candidate from the SE list, rather than causing a by-election? And if he stands and loses, then sure, he's done that before... but it would dent the image of his new party.
I agree, but if someone else stands and loses it dents the party about the same. And he's their best bet, imho.
Apparently he's just given a radio interview and said he won't run though. Hmm.
> > @Quincel said:
> > > @GIN1138 said:
> > > > @Quincel said:
> > > > The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way.
> > >
> > > Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then
> >
> > Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
>
> Farage is chicken! The Brexit party is a vanity project to massage his ego, it is all talk and a husk of an organisation. It is a pity the Tory press boost him and the things he is associated with as they do. Indeed, given the connection between Farage and Trump I am surprised more is not made of that by those who are not seduced by his alleged charisma.
Did you see the reaction to Nigel by 2000 people in Newport last night? He was greeted like a rock star.
Without the dead weight of UKIP holding him back I think the skies the limit for Farage and BP...
I profoundly disagree with the direction May seems to be going with the 5G stuff but you simply cannot have such critically important forums for our national security subject to leaks. If Williamson is responsible even indirectly then he needs the book thrown at him. My fear is that - on the current publicly available evidence - this looks rather like an attempt to throw someone to the wolves to try and close down any further investigation. </em>
Quite likely to be a shared interest between Williamson and May not to have Williamson investigated, on my reading.
> > @Quincel said:
> > > @GIN1138 said:
> > > > @Quincel said:
> > > > The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way.
> > >
> > > Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then
> >
> > Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
>
> Farage is chicken! The Brexit party is a vanity project to massage his ego, it is all talk and a husk of an organisation. It is a pity the Tory press boost him and the things he is associated with as they do. Indeed, given the connection between Farage and Trump I am surprised more is not made of that by those who are not seduced by his alleged charisma.
Much as I dislike Farage, I think it's a bit unfair to suggest a man who has run in 7 Parliamentary elections is scared of fighting elections.
Liberal Democrat deputy leader Jo Swinson has asked the police to open an investigation into whether Gavin Williamson breached the Official Secrets Act.
In a letter to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, she wrote that she wanted an investigation "given that the leak originated from the National Security Council and related to highly-sensitive information".
The letter was also signed by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable and MP Sir Ed Davey.
> > @williamglenn said:
> > If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted.
> >
> > Some opposition MPs are saying that already.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/peterkyle/status/1123663085913497600
>
> Yeah but far more importantly a member of the public is.
Again though the problem is that there is every likelihood that the CPS will look at the scant available evidence and say there is no case to answer. That then leaves May looking like she has acted rashly or even dangerously by leaving a potential real leaker still in the organisation.
But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run.
> BBC reporting LibDems call on Met Police to open a criminal investigation :
>
> Liberal Democrat deputy leader Jo Swinson has asked the police to open an investigation into whether Gavin Williamson breached the Official Secrets Act.
>
> In a letter to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, she wrote that she wanted an investigation "given that the leak originated from the National Security Council and related to highly-sensitive information".
>
> The letter was also signed by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable and MP Sir Ed Davey.
Whilst I agree that the Police need to look at this, I never like it when politicians are active in trying to initiate investigations. It will always look political and we need to keep politics and Police investigations as far apart as possible.
> > @williamglenn said:
> > If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted.
> >
> > Some opposition MPs are saying that already.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/peterkyle/status/1123663085913497600
>
> Yeah but far more importantly a member of the public is.
And incidentally May has potentially put a man who might be trialled for treason in the position of Defence Secretary. I've long supported May, thick (that'll be me) and thin. A few weeks ago I finally worked out that she needed to step aside. She needs to do so, and with no delay.
>
> It's rubbish territory for CHUK, but they have to run or basically admit they are frit. Also the LDs are running, and if they beat them that would be something for the 'We are the real alternative' narrative they want.
The best LD performance in recent times was just shy of 20% in 2010. The vote collapsed in 2015 and was only 3% in 2017 so promising it's not and the party has never been second in the constituency.
The Con-Lab vote share was 95% last time when the national share for the two parties was 83%. Now that share has fallen to sub 60% it's an ideal time for insurgent parties to make inroads. The question for me is whether the Brexit Party can find the right candidate and get into the fight and that will mean getting a presence in the constituency quickly.
As an aside, one third of the council is up for election with the Conservatives defending an overall majority of two (31-29 for all other parties). The 20 seats being defended are CON 10 LAB 6 LD 2 Others 2.
> BBC reporting LibDems call on Met Police to open a criminal investigation :
>
> Liberal Democrat deputy leader Jo Swinson has asked the police to open an investigation into whether Gavin Williamson breached the Official Secrets Act.
>
> In a letter to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, she wrote that she wanted an investigation "given that the leak originated from the National Security Council and related to highly-sensitive information".
>
> The letter was also signed by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable and MP Sir Ed Davey.
Good for them. Follow the evidence wherever it may lead etc...
Maybe we'll finish up with a by election in South Staffordshire? The South Staffs parliamentary constituency voted to leave by 64% to 45% of course...
Could turn into a straight Con/Brexit Party fight?
> Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
>
> Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time.
>
>
> It actually isn’t, for a start the part of Peterborough in the constituency is about a quarter foreign born. There are a lot of seats which have better demographics.
>
> But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run.
How many seats are more than 60% leave vote in 2016? If Farage can only win in perfect conditions then that's not good enough. This is plenty fertile territory compared to your average seat.
> > @JackW said:
> > BBC reporting LibDems call on Met Police to open a criminal investigation :
> >
> > Liberal Democrat deputy leader Jo Swinson has asked the police to open an investigation into whether Gavin Williamson breached the Official Secrets Act.
> >
> > In a letter to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, she wrote that she wanted an investigation "given that the leak originated from the National Security Council and related to highly-sensitive information".
> >
> > The letter was also signed by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable and MP Sir Ed Davey.
>
> Whilst I agree that the Police need to look at this, I never like it when politicians are active in trying to initiate investigations. It will always look political and we need to keep politics and Police investigations as far apart as possible.
It's political if the Met don't investigate. What is Cressida Dick waiting for? .. The Prime Minister has openly said in terms that there is compelling evidence that Williamson has breached the OSA in a most serious fashion.
Does Cressida Dick think the Prime Minister is not a serious witness to a crime?
> > @The_Taxman said:
> > > @Quincel said:
> > > > @GIN1138 said:
> > > > > @Quincel said:
> > > > > The more I look at Peterborough the more I think it's Labour's to lose, more like 70-80% chance of winning than 50:50. Brexit Party will do well, but they will take far more votes from the Tories than Labour (judging by EU polling). They could come through and win it, but Labour has a strong local operation (recently drilled on the locals) and Farage doesn't. Plus there's got to be a decent chance Brexit Party chooses a candidate who gets in their own way.
> > > >
> > > > Brexit Party needs to pitch this as a "teach the whole establishment a lesson they'll never forget" by election - That means getting a candidate that's outside of politics (NOT the Gorgeous One then
> > >
> > > Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
> >
> > Farage is chicken! The Brexit party is a vanity project to massage his ego, it is all talk and a husk of an organisation. It is a pity the Tory press boost him and the things he is associated with as they do. Indeed, given the connection between Farage and Trump I am surprised more is not made of that by those who are not seduced by his alleged charisma.
>
> Did you see the reaction to Nigel by 2000 people in Newport last night? He was greeted like a rock star.
>
> Without the dead weight of UKIP holding him back I think the skies the limit for Farage and BP...
I doubt it. Farage might have the support of 2K of people but he is preaching to the converted.
I suppose looking at it from a different angle he might have found standing in two elections overlapping as they will a little difficult. Indeed if he gets elected as an MEP, he would probably prefer that financially to being an MP anyway.
> > @Omnium said:
> > > @williamglenn said:
> > > If Gavin Williamson has breeched the official secrets act - and I think it's quite clear that he may have done so, then its not sufficient that he resigns. He needs to be prosecuted.
> > >
> > > Some opposition MPs are saying that already.
> > >
> > > https://twitter.com/peterkyle/status/1123663085913497600
> >
> > Yeah but far more importantly a member of the public is.
>
> Again though the problem is that there is every likelihood that the CPS will look at the scant available evidence and say there is no case to answer. That then leaves May looking like she has acted rashly or even dangerously by leaving a potential real leaker still in the organisation.
I suspect there is ample evidence. (Assuming of course he's guilty, which his sacking suggests, his general reputation suggests, and the sort of thing that one may have heard about him.)
What's really interesting is whether he framed Fox or not. Why did Fox have to issue denials?
The journalists concerned may also have broken the law.
> Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
>
> Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time.
>
>
> It actually isn’t, for a start the part of Peterborough in the constituency is about a quarter foreign born. The rest of the City of Peterborough is better but not actually in the boundaries. There are a lot of seats which have better demographics.
>
> But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run.
>
> Presumably Farage doesn’t want to run himself as he wants to lead the party in Brussels - but given he’s announced a rally in Peterborough next week, he must have a local candidate up his sleeve already. Anyone know any Brexit-supporting local businessmen or councillors?
Gorgeous ?
> > @oxfordsimon said:
> > > @JackW said:
> > > BBC reporting LibDems call on Met Police to open a criminal investigation :
> > >
> > > Liberal Democrat deputy leader Jo Swinson has asked the police to open an investigation into whether Gavin Williamson breached the Official Secrets Act.
> > >
> > > In a letter to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, she wrote that she wanted an investigation "given that the leak originated from the National Security Council and related to highly-sensitive information".
> > >
> > > The letter was also signed by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable and MP Sir Ed Davey.
> >
> > Whilst I agree that the Police need to look at this, I never like it when politicians are active in trying to initiate investigations. It will always look political and we need to keep politics and Police investigations as far apart as possible.
>
> It's political if the Met don't investigate. What is Cressida Dick waiting for? .. The Prime Minister has openly said in terms that there is compelling evidence that Williamson has breached the OSA in a most serious fashion.
>
> Does Cressida Dick think the Prime Minister is not a serious witness to a crime?
Different use of the word 'politics' I think.
Politicians should avoid getting involved in the criminal justice system as far as possible. That system should never be used in a way that could be interpreted as a way of scoring a political point.
https://twitter.com/JBickertonUK/status/1123580005714415616?s=19
> Just run Farage. He's a true icon and folk hero to a demography which doesn't get much better in one seat than this. If they wait for a by-election in Clacton he'll be waiting forever. He needn't even fear losing, he's lost loads of times before and he's still where he is now.
>
> Indeed. Peterborough is the right demographic for Farage and this is the right time.
>
>
> It actually isn’t, for a start the part of Peterborough in the constituency is about a quarter foreign born. The rest of the City of Peterborough is better but not actually in the boundaries. There are a lot of seats which have better demographics.
>
> But yeah of course people are going to make out this is a must-win much like Stoke Central for Nuttall when these actually are bad places to run.
>
> Presumably Farage doesn’t want to run himself as he wants to lead the party in Brussels - but given he’s announced a rally in Peterborough next week, he must have a local candidate up his sleeve already. Anyone know any Brexit-supporting local businessmen or councillors?
But Fararge wants, and there's a very good chance that, UK MEPs will only exist fora few months. And imagine how much more publicity his trademark rants would get if they were in the HoC than the EU Parliament?
New International Development Secretary Rory Stewart says he believes the prime minister "made the right decision" in sacking Gavin Williamson.
He said he had known National Security Adviser Mark Sedwill "for many years" and has "full confidence in that investigation".
He added: "I have a lot of confidence in the process he will have conducted. I have a lot of confidence in the prime minister and I'm sure that they made the right decision."
On his new role, he said: "I'm absolutely delighted. Personally for me I've spent a lot of my life working abroad... It's a chance to engage in some of the most pressing issues in the world."
To have two is downright careless.
It’s not a simple case of mobilising the Leave vote, the people who will actually vote TBP or UKIP is not exactly the same demographic.
Probably autocorrect.
> Yes, but what other situations would not be clear cut when they involve prison time? The recall process doesn't trigger until after appeals, so have the same in the case of any custodial sentence - that way anyone who is in fact innocent and is willing to fight it is not turfed out until then.
>
> Many times people have been arrested protesting when protest was justified, as an example. Can you not think of any examples in history where people were made criminals for trying to do the right thing?
You're thinking of Tony Blair, right?
> I presume john didnt see the banners as per usual...
>
> https://twitter.com/JBickertonUK/status/1123580005714415616?s=19
We can't see the full first word on the left hand banner. I assume it says 'Totalitarian'.