I don't understand why someone would spend £5000 on standing as an Independent candidate for the European elections and not create a simple website to explain who they are. Baffling.
Getting dibbed in by a journalist is pretty bad and doesn't reflect well on the scribbler involved. But I have an unrelated question. What does Roger Scruton know about housing?
Don't ask awkward questions! Scruton is a posh person who knows people! That's all you need to know! That's how it works in this country! What are you, a communist?!
I think he has written on aesthetics. Whether that makes him suitable to be on a housing commission is another matter.
I'm on a train again. I am bored. Let's have a crack at the Jason thingy.
There are 5 possible outcomes
1: Child a is a boy called Jason and child b is a girl 2: Child a is a girl and child b is a boy called Jason 3: Child a is a boy called Jason and child b is a boy not called Jason 4: Child a is a boy called Jason and child b is a boy called Jason 5: Child a is a boy not called Jason and child b is a boy called Jason
Let's pretend the probability that a boy is called Jason is 0.1 because I'm on a train and I'm buggered if I'm looking it up. So the probs are:
Getting dibbed in by a journalist is pretty bad and doesn't reflect well on the scribbler involved. But I have an unrelated question. What does Roger Scruton know about housing?
Don't ask awkward questions! Scruton is a posh person who knows people! That's all you need to know! That's how it works in this country! What are you, a communist?!
He's a grammar school boy from Manchester, actually.
Getting dibbed in by a journalist is pretty bad and doesn't reflect well on the scribbler involved. But I have an unrelated question. What does Roger Scruton know about housing?
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
At least Corbyn has done one good thing this week by turning down an invitation to dine with the orange lunatic .
Trump is a cancer on the planet and has enabled scum like Bolsonaro to get elected . He’s also propping up the odious war criminal Netanyahu .
The one good thing he has done is remind us that the benefit of the doubt he was prepared to extend to Putin, who sought to kill and succeeded in one case, British citizens on British soil, is not to be extended to the President of the USA.
What benefit of the doubt , Trump is a misogynist, liar and racist end of story . As for Putin I’m not disputing the fact he’s responsible for the Salisbury attacks .
Getting dibbed in by a journalist is pretty bad and doesn't reflect well on the scribbler involved. But I have an unrelated question. What does Roger Scruton know about housing?
Don't ask awkward questions! Scruton is a posh person who knows people! That's all you need to know! That's how it works in this country! What are you, a communist?!
I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.
I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
Given the D’Hondt formula and the way the polls appear to be shaping up, I expect LibDem would be a better Remain vote than CUK, in the Euros.
I think that depends on Region. In London, SE and possibly SW England CHUK have a reasonable chance.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Getting dibbed in by a journalist is pretty bad and doesn't reflect well on the scribbler involved. But I have an unrelated question. What does Roger Scruton know about housing?
Don't ask awkward questions! Scruton is a posh person who knows people! That's all you need to know! That's how it works in this country! What are you, a communist?!
He's a grammar school boy from Manchester, actually.
I think we may have different interpretations of the word "posh"...
I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.
I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
Given the D’Hondt formula and the way the polls appear to be shaping up, I expect LibDem would be a better Remain vote than CUK, in the Euros.
I think that depends on Region. In London, SE and possibly SW England CHUK have a reasonable chance.
How bad is it for Up-Chuk if they get 0 seats?
Clearly no good. How bad is it for the Tories if they get none?
Getting dibbed in by a journalist is pretty bad and doesn't reflect well on the scribbler involved. But I have an unrelated question. What does Roger Scruton know about housing?
Don't ask awkward questions! Scruton is a posh person who knows people! That's all you need to know! That's how it works in this country! What are you, a communist?!
Scruton isn't posh, he's from a working-class family.
I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.
I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
Given the D’Hondt formula and the way the polls appear to be shaping up, I expect LibDem would be a better Remain vote than CUK, in the Euros.
I think that depends on Region. In London, SE and possibly SW England CHUK have a reasonable chance.
How bad is it for Up-Chuk if they get 0 seats?
Clearly no good. How bad is it for the Tories if they get none?
Well, the Tories aren't exactly fanboys of the EU. Up-Chuk are though. And if the voters don't see them as that by giving them no MEPs....kinda wonder then, what is their point?
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Getting dibbed in by a journalist is pretty bad and doesn't reflect well on the scribbler involved. But I have an unrelated question. What does Roger Scruton know about housing?
Don't ask awkward questions! Scruton is a posh person who knows people! That's all you need to know! That's how it works in this country! What are you, a communist?!
Scruton isn't posh, he's from a working-class family.
And neither does the general public . The media obsession ignores this fact , most people couldn’t give a fig who Corbyn puts in charge or whose head of complaints .
And neither does the general public . The media obsession ignores this fact , most people couldn’t give a fig who Corbyn puts in charge or whose head of complaints .
No, but the membership, and the activists do (or did)
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
And neither does the general public . The media obsession ignores this fact , most people couldn’t give a fig who Corbyn puts in charge or whose head of complaints .
You think having a robust complaints system isn't important?
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
As the local and European parliament elections hove enticingly into view, you will likely find yourself moved by the Conservative party’s attempt to expand its electoral appeal beyond recent head-trauma victims. The Tories are keen to move past the notion that a vote for them is a vote in favour of a government with no pending legislation, at all, bar the one piece it can’t pass.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.
I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
Given the D’Hondt formula and the way the polls appear to be shaping up, I expect LibDem would be a better Remain vote than CUK, in the Euros.
I think that depends on Region. In London, SE and possibly SW England CHUK have a reasonable chance.
How bad is it for Up-Chuk if they get 0 seats?
Clearly no good. How bad is it for the Tories if they get none?
Getting dibbed in by a journalist is pretty bad and doesn't reflect well on the scribbler involved. But I have an unrelated question. What does Roger Scruton know about housing?
He's an expert in architecture.
Happy to believe he's an expert in aesthetics, and that he's written a book on aesthetics of architecture, but to jump from that to "expert on architecture" is a stretch.
And neither does the general public . The media obsession ignores this fact , most people couldn’t give a fig who Corbyn puts in charge or whose head of complaints .
No, but the membership, and the activists do (or did)
The membership don’t care , neither do the activists . I have zero time for Corbyn but am so disgusted by what the Tories are doing to the country I’ll still be voting Labour . An awful Corbyn is still miles better than the Tories .
As the local and European parliament elections hove enticingly into view, you will likely find yourself moved by the Conservative party’s attempt to expand its electoral appeal beyond recent head-trauma victims. The Tories are keen to move past the notion that a vote for them is a vote in favour of a government with no pending legislation, at all, bar the one piece it can’t pass.
I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.
I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
Given the D’Hondt formula and the way the polls appear to be shaping up, I expect LibDem would be a better Remain vote than CUK, in the Euros.
I think that depends on Region. In London, SE and possibly SW England CHUK have a reasonable chance.
How bad is it for Up-Chuk if they get 0 seats?
Clearly no good. How bad is it for the Tories if they get none?
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
There's an assumption in that "joining" of the Conservative and Brexit Party numbers. How do you know all the Brexit Party supporters are ex-Conservatives and how do you know they will come back when and if Brexit is resolved?
As for John Rhys-Davies he was in Sliders and there's a cheap sci-fi film about an ice age where he seems to play the whole of NATO. In Sliders he played the Sheriff of San Francisco in a reality where North America was part of the Empire (that's the British Empire not someone else's or the one on the mirror Star Trek).
Getting dibbed in by a journalist is pretty bad and doesn't reflect well on the scribbler involved. But I have an unrelated question. What does Roger Scruton know about housing?
Don't ask awkward questions! Scruton is a posh person who knows people! That's all you need to know! That's how it works in this country! What are you, a communist?!
Scruton isn't posh, he's from a working-class family.
It's a fair point, but it does raise the awkward question of whether he's posh *now*. Given his life history, I think I might be correct.
I don't understand why someone would spend £5000 on standing as an Independent candidate for the European elections and not create a simple website to explain who they are. Baffling.
The intern could knock up a passable Wordpress site in a half a day or so, or a local IT company would do it for a couple of hundred quid. Not much when they’re five grand in the hole for the deposit already.
I think Labour will make a qualified commitment to a referendum. Which will be interpreted as weaselly in some quarters.
I understand that Labour's stance in the talks with the government has been that it will be very hard for any deal to get through parliament unless it includes a confirmatory vote. Which is not quite the same as saying that Labour is in favour of a confirmatory vote, but it is not far away from that position.
What on earth is a 'confirmatory vote' when there's a clock ticking? It's meaningless gobbledegook, designed to avoid stating what the options might be even if any vote is ever held.
But yes, I think you are right. They'll come up with some such nonsense.
It does not have to be nonsense. A referendum on deal vs extend for a year with general election seems a very sensible way out of this impasse for all parties with the opportunity to test what the public think without the many repeated issues from remain vs deal or deal vs no deal.
Oh my god, I am so sick of this type of argument. The "if you do one good thing but don't have a consistent rule for when exactly you do that good thing, you're a hypocrite" argument.
You're a vegetarian? Why not a vegan, hypocrite?! You're boycotting a company whose practices you don't agree with? Why aren't you meticulously researching every single company you buy from in case they've done something worse, hypocrite?! You're donating money to a cancer charity? Why not a heart charity too, hypocrite?! You're refusing to meet with an abhorrent dickhead? Why not all abhorrent dickheads, hypocrite?!
Has anyone in the history of the world ever used this kind of argument in good faith?
How come you don't ALWAYS say that you're sick of this type of argument?
And neither does the general public . The media obsession ignores this fact , most people couldn’t give a fig who Corbyn puts in charge or whose head of complaints .
You think having a robust complaints system isn't important?
It’s very important . But it won’t determine how people vote . What the media think is a big deal doesn’t always resonate with the public .
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
There's an assumption in that "joining" of the Conservative and Brexit Party numbers. How do you know all the Brexit Party supporters are ex-Conservatives and how do you know they will come back when and if Brexit is resolved?
As for John Rhys-Davies he was in Sliders and there's a cheap sci-fi film about an ice age where he seems to play the whole of NATO. In Sliders he played the Sheriff of San Francisco in a reality where North America was part of the Empire (that's the British Empire not someone else's or the one on the mirror Star Trek).
From the polling. Almost a quarter of 2017 Tories are now voting Brexit Party at the next general election according to Yougov and almost half of 2017 Tories will vote Brexit Party at the European elections. Provided we leave the EU and Boris or Raab succeed May as Tory leader (and the Tory membership polls show either trouncing their rivals with Tory members) Brexit Party voters will return by the next general election.
Oh my god, I am so sick of this type of argument. The "if you do one good thing but don't have a consistent rule for when exactly you do that good thing, you're a hypocrite" argument.
You're a vegetarian? Why not a vegan, hypocrite?! You're donating money to a cancer charity? Why not a heart charity too, hypocrite?! You're refusing to meet with an abhorrent dickhead? Why not all abhorrent dickheads, hypocrite?!
Has anyone in the history of the world ever used this kind of argument in good faith?
It is Corbyn and his supporters who parade his principles and claim that they make him a different sort of politician. So one is perfectly entitled to call him out when he does not act according to the principles so loudly proclaimed. Were he and his supporters less sanctimonious about his supposed virtue, then the criticism could not be made.
If you want to call him out for meeting Assad or whoever, go for it. That's a valid thing to argue, just like I'm happy to hear arguments that you should be a vegan or should give money to heart charities. But the form of argument I'm complaining about, whataboutery, allows you to skip having to actually make that argument, and instead just make a spurious accusation of hypocrisy. It's lazy.
HAVE MESSED UP BLOCKQUOTES so this my response to @Stereotomy (above).
I have repeatedly over the last few years called out Corbyn for who he has met, what he has said or not said, the lies he has told and his failures to act on the principles he preaches, both under the line and in thread headers. Lazy on this I am not. Corbyn is a hypocrite - not because he chooses which causes to support (that is reasonable) but because even on the terms and principles he himself chooses he is utterly inconsistent and in a way which suggests that his principles are very different from those he claims to espouse. I won’t stop pointing this out because it makes for poor judgments and faulty decisions, qualities which I consider dangerous in someone who wants to be PM.
Incidentally, one of the most obvious examples of lazy whataboutery, sometimes seen on here, is Corbyn supporters, when there is a row about anti-semitism, raising the issue of islamophobia in the Tory party. Now I think that there is a problem with anti-Muslim prejudice within the Tory party and that they should deal with it (and have written a thread header on it). But to see such concerns being used to deflect attention from Labour’s own problems is a bit much, frankly.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
The fate of the Remain-alliance-that-never-was looks more intriguing by the day.
The Greens could well be holed under the waterline by the Extinction Rebellion candidates. They're standing seven in London and two in the South-West - i.e. two of the three regions where the Greens currently have an MEP. Given that there's no second preferences in this election, this could be enough to deprive the Greens of a seat while not being enough to secure a seat in their own right.
CUK-TIG don't appear to have done anything right so far.
So if the Lib Dems can get some momentum coming out of the locals, this could be their first lucky break since, what, 2010? But I'll believe it when I see it...
And neither does the general public . The media obsession ignores this fact , most people couldn’t give a fig who Corbyn puts in charge or whose head of complaints .
No, but the membership, and the activists do (or did)
Historically the general public have not voted for divided parties, so whilst they probably do not care directly who is head of complaints, indirectly it does impact the party vote share if they seem divided.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.
I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
Given the D’Hondt formula and the way the polls appear to be shaping up, I expect LibDem would be a better Remain vote than CUK, in the Euros.
I think that depends on Region. In London, SE and possibly SW England CHUK have a reasonable chance.
How bad is it for Up-Chuk if they get 0 seats?
Clearly no good. How bad is it for the Tories if they get none?
Dan Hannan is definitely safe.
Probably.
How many others will survive?
I definitely wouldn’t want to be #2 on any of the lists. It could be down to as few as a handful in total. SW, NE and EM regions are probably safe, but I don’t think anyone except DH has their Eurostar ticket for 1st July booked yet!
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Was John Bercow there for Xi too? Apparently he’s also turned down Her Majesty on this occasion. Can’t imagine HM is particularly amused at having people turn down her invitations to make a political point - doubly so if it’s someone who is by definition supposed to be politically impartial.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Yes he was articulate and expressed the anger of Leavers, the fact snowflake left liberal Remainers hated what he had to say proof of that
I have no problem with Leavers explaining their problem with the current state of affairs . However Rhys Davies behaviour was almost unhinged at times .
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Yes he was articulate and expressed the anger of Leavers, the fact snowflake left liberal Remainers hated what he had to say proof of that
Wow. What about his climate change scepticism and desire to see Africa back to "before things changed", presumably colonialism and apartheid?
Rhys-Davies previously said Europe is facing a demographic catastrophe, asking, "Are we willing to be part of a Muslim-controlled Europe?" He added, "I do not want to see a society where, should I ever have any, my granddaughters have their fingernails pulled out because they are wearing nail varnish."
Was John Bercow there for Xi too? Apparently he’s also turned down Her Majesty on this occasion. Can’t imagine HM is particularly amused at having people turn down her invitations to make a political point.
Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?
The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?
It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.
It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.
I tend to feel that the polarisation over Brexit has accelerated recently with the passing of Brexit day. While fence-sitting previously served Labour well, as they allowed everyone to believe Labour was on their side, now I think that strategy is failing, as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.
The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
I don't think the point of decision has been reached. What happens if they don't make a decision now?
Conversely, if they do decide to go for a referendum for the purposes of the Euro elections, then it would be impossible for them not to vote for one in the Commons, but the leadership cabal seems very determined not to do so (at least for now).
Weasel words it will be, I'm sure.
It's too late for Labour to win back the votes of hardcore remainers in this election,
I don't like to say that something's rubbish but that is of the unadulterated type.
A week is a long time in politics. A day is a long time in Brexit politics. A month is an eternity.
One clear decisive move by the NEC on Tuesday to back a People's Vote and there will be a flood of remainers, like me, for Labour.
Only if Labour say, unambiguously, that Remain will be a choice on the ballot paper.
A “confirmatory vote” is ambiguous on the point.
No that's the whole point. They DON'T need to do anything necessarily about campaigning for Remain. What they need, we need, is a clear commitment to a confirmatory referendum, a people's vote.
That's all Remainers at the moment can realistically hope to get. And it's fine. Because we're confident that this time we will win.
Alastair Campbell put it brilliantly a little earlier today:
Well, of course. He and his Chancellor have praised Mao and the policies of the Chinese Communist Party, both in Parliament and in interviews. And maybe in 2015 those Muslim Uighurs weren’t being locked up in detention camps by the Chinese.
I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.
I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
Given the D’Hondt formula and the way the polls appear to be shaping up, I expect LibDem would be a better Remain vote than CUK, in the Euros.
I think the LD are a little too pro-European for me in the European election. I am someone who thinks remaining in the EU is better than leaving but I do not want to join the Euro, Schengen etc! I think the UK should be in the EU but a peripheral member. I don't really care if my vote elects an MEP, I have voted before in an election for the Tories and the Tory MEP who topped the list defected later and remained an MEP! I am certainly not voting Tory, Labour, UKIP or Brexit party. CUK is where I feel my vote should go at this time. Sorry to disappoint but as a conciliation prize I will vote LD in the local elections simply because I will not vote Tory or Labour at this time.
Was John Bercow there for Xi too? Apparently he’s also turned down Her Majesty on this occasion. Can’t imagine HM is particularly amused at having people turn down her invitations to make a political point.
Given how rude Trump was to her last year, I wonder how pleased she is at the prospect of having such an oafish guest again.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Yes he was articulate and expressed the anger of Leavers, the fact snowflake left liberal Remainers hated what he had to say proof of that
What happened to the art of persuasion?
The liberal diehard Remainer left will never be persuaded, forget them, unite the right to beat Corbyn and deliver Brexit
Listen to yourself, the vast majority of the country are not die hard either way on Brexit (let alone liberal! or left!), even if they were it would be important to persuade them.
The problem Labour faces is most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats and Tory marginals voted Leave
Spot on. And more to the point, Labour marginals in the North East, Yorkshire and the Midlands were also leave voting areas. Losing tens of thousands of Remain-loving millennial hipsters in inner London doesn't hurt Labour's election chances one bit - losing leave-voting WWC in Labour marginals does.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
The problem Labour faces is most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats and Tory marginals voted Leave
Spot on. And more to the point, Labour marginals in the North East, Yorkshire and the Midlands were also leave voting areas. Losing tens of thousands of Remain-loving millennial hipsters in inner London doesn't hurt Labour's election chances one bit - losing leave-voting WWC in Labour marginals does.
But the next election is not a re-run of the last one in terms of issues or narrative! You just have to see how the main parties have disintegrating coalitions of voters to see the next GE will have a new set of fundamentals pushing peoples voting patterns. HYUFD follows the last opinion poll or the last GE, that is good for him but the problem with focusing on the past all the time comes at a cost of not being able to anticipate the future.
Was John Bercow there for Xi too? Apparently he’s also turned down Her Majesty on this occasion. Can’t imagine HM is particularly amused at having people turn down her invitations to make a political point.
Given how rude Trump was to her last year, I wonder how pleased she is at the prospect of having such an oafish guest again.
She has a sense of public duty that is now almost into its ninth decade as an adult, she will have sat for dinner with many worse people over the decades. We can also only work with whom foreign peoples decide to elect, the special relationship between the UK and USA is more endearing and longer lasting than any incumbent president or prime minister.
Labour on 30% is the really interesting number on that list. What do they have to do to get even 5% back - without pissing off another 5%? Meanwhile, the Tories potentially have 14% to entice back from Brexit Party.....although, admittedly, the path to doing so is not exactly well illuminated.
Was John Bercow there for Xi too? Apparently he’s also turned down Her Majesty on this occasion. Can’t imagine HM is particularly amused at having people turn down her invitations to make a political point.
Given how rude Trump was to her last year, I wonder how pleased she is at the prospect of having such an oafish guest again.
She has a sense of public duty that is now almost into its ninth decade as an adult, she will have sat for dinner with many worse people over the decades. We can also only work with whom foreign peoples decide to elect, the special relationship between the UK and USA is more endearing and longer lasting than any incumbent president or prime minister.
I don't know why people think being Monarch is such a hardship. It is not - she is lucky to be Monarch and given the deference accorded to such an individual. Most people would jump at the chance never to worry about money, live in magnificent buildings, not subject to Inheritance Tax and until recently 1990s Income Tax, the provision of enduring security for not just themselves but their descendants. I could go on but Monarchy is an anachronism in this century. I have no doubt she is sincere and duty bound but that comes with the job.
Difficult to find a single subject on which Labour are at all coherent or competent. They are fortunate that the Tories seem to equally so. U.K. politics is really suffering from a lack of any party with any electoral credibility which is why Brexit is so toxic. No leadership either. Both major parties could do with a radical overhaul of the patronage they both practice, how they select candidates and their policy portfolio.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Yes he was articulate and expressed the anger of Leavers, the fact snowflake left liberal Remainers hated what he had to say proof of that
What happened to the art of persuasion?
The liberal diehard Remainer left will never be persuaded, forget them, unite the right to beat Corbyn and deliver Brexit
Listen to yourself, the vast majority of the country are not die hard either way on Brexit (let alone liberal! or left!), even if they were it would be important to persuade them.
Not convinced about that. The vast majority of the electorate might want Parliament dealing with a lot more than Brexit but their would be political carnage if Brexit weren’t implemented.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
From the polling. Almost a quarter of 2017 Tories are now voting Brexit Party at the next general election according to Yougov and almost half of 2017 Tories will vote Brexit Party at the European elections. Provided we leave the EU and Boris or Raab succeed May as Tory leader (and the Tory membership polls show either trouncing their rivals with Tory members) Brexit Party voters will return by the next general election.
I'm more than happy to accept the bulk of the Brexit Party is made up of disillusioned Conservatives but you make the road to getting them back sound so easy when we all know it isn't.
We can't leave and we can't remain. None of the options on offer has been able to produce a majority and your fantasy of somehow getting the WA through with a CU is meaningless. Would your heroes Johnson or Raab support a CU? I suspect not.
From the polling. Almost a quarter of 2017 Tories are now voting Brexit Party at the next general election according to Yougov and almost half of 2017 Tories will vote Brexit Party at the European elections. Provided we leave the EU and Boris or Raab succeed May as Tory leader (and the Tory membership polls show either trouncing their rivals with Tory members) Brexit Party voters will return by the next general election.
I'm more than happy to accept the bulk of the Brexit Party is made up of disillusioned Conservatives but you make the road to getting them back sound so easy when we all know it isn't.
We can't leave and we can't remain. None of the options on offer has been able to produce a majority and your fantasy of somehow getting the WA through with a CU is meaningless. Would your heroes Johnson or Raab support a CU? I suspect not.
Any government policy of backing a CU would lead to resignations in the dozens to vote against it. Labour would probably also vote against it, as it would be the wrong sort of CU for them.
Was John Bercow there for Xi too? Apparently he’s also turned down Her Majesty on this occasion. Can’t imagine HM is particularly amused at having people turn down her invitations to make a political point.
Given how rude Trump was to her last year, I wonder how pleased she is at the prospect of having such an oafish guest again.
She has a sense of public duty that is now almost into its ninth decade as an adult, she will have sat for dinner with many worse people over the decades. We can also only work with whom foreign peoples decide to elect, the special relationship between the UK and USA is more endearing and longer lasting than any incumbent president or prime minister.
I don't know why people think being Monarch is such a hardship. It is not - she is lucky to be Monarch and given the deference accorded to such an individual. Most people would jump at the chance never to worry about money, live in magnificent buildings, not subject to Inheritance Tax and until recently 1990s Income Tax, the provision of enduring security for not just themselves but their descendants. I could go on but Monarchy is an anachronism in this century. I have no doubt she is sincere and duty bound but that comes with the job.
Magnificent buildings are usually cold and draughty
Difficult to find a single subject on which Labour are at all coherent or competent. They are fortunate that the Tories seem to equally so. U.K. politics is really suffering from a lack of any party with any electoral credibility which is why Brexit is so toxic. No leadership either. Both major parties could do with a radical overhaul of the patronage they both practice, how they select candidates and their policy portfolio.
I'm wondering whether to put a small bet on the LDs getting most votes at the Euros, if the Brexit Party fails to live up to expectations and the two main parties do as badly as expected.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Yes he was articulate and expressed the anger of Leavers, the fact snowflake left liberal Remainers hated what he had to say proof of that
Wow. What about his climate change scepticism and desire to see Africa back to "before things changed", presumably colonialism and apartheid?
Are we not allowed even to be *sceptical* about climate change?
The Climate has been changing ever since the Earth first formed. For example, there was a time when there wasn't any oxygen in the atmosphere. It was only after photosynthetic bacteria evolved, wot produced oxygen as a reaction by-product, that you got oxygen in the atmosphere.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Yes he was articulate and expressed the anger of Leavers, the fact snowflake left liberal Remainers hated what he had to say proof of that
What happened to the art of persuasion?
The liberal diehard Remainer left will never be persuaded, forget them, unite the right to beat Corbyn and deliver Brexit
Listen to yourself, the vast majority of the country are not die hard either way on Brexit (let alone liberal! or left!), even if they were it would be important to persuade them.
As 4 times election winner John Howard said the most important thing in any election is to ensure your base is secure and only then reach out, at the moment the Tory base is leaking like a sieve to the Brexit Party
Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?
The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?
It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.
It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.
I tend to feel that the polarisation over Brexit has accelerated recently with the passing of Brexit day. While fence-sitting previously served Labour well, as they allowed everyone to believe Labour was on their side, now I think that strategy is failing, as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.
The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
I don't think the point of decision has been reached. What happens if they don't make a decision now?
Conversely, if they do decide to go for a referendum for the purposes of the Euro elections, then it would be impossible for them not to vote for one in the Commons, but the leadership cabal seems very determined not to do so (at least for now).
Weasel words it will be, I'm sure.
It's too late for Labour to win back the votes of hardcore remainers in this election,
I don't like to say that something's rubbish but that is of the unadulterated type.
A week is a long time in politics. A day is a long time in Brexit politics. A month is an eternity.
One clear decisive move by the NEC on Tuesday to back a People's Vote and there will be a flood of remainers, like me, for Labour.
Only if Labour say, unambiguously, that Remain will be a choice on the ballot paper.
A “confirmatory vote” is ambiguous on the point.
No that's the whole point. They DON'T need to do anything necessarily about campaigning for Remain. What they need, we need, is a clear commitment to a confirmatory referendum, a people's vote.
That's all Remainers at the moment can realistically hope to get. And it's fine. Because we're confident that this time we will win.
Alastair Campbell put it brilliantly a little earlier today:
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Yes he was articulate and expressed the anger of Leavers, the fact snowflake left liberal Remainers hated what he had to say proof of that
What happened to the art of persuasion?
The liberal diehard Remainer left will never be persuaded, forget them, unite the right to beat Corbyn and deliver Brexit
Listen to yourself, the vast majority of the country are not die hard either way on Brexit (let alone liberal! or left!), even if they were it would be important to persuade them.
As 4 times election winner John Howard said the most important thing in any election is to ensure your base is secure and only then reach out, at the moment the Tory base is leaking like a sieve to the Brexit Party
The problem Labour faces is most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats and Tory marginals voted Leave
Spot on. And more to the point, Labour marginals in the North East, Yorkshire and the Midlands were also leave voting areas. Losing tens of thousands of Remain-loving millennial hipsters in inner London doesn't hurt Labour's election chances one bit - losing leave-voting WWC in Labour marginals does.
Exactly and even the LDs are not immune, given they have councillors in Leave voting areas like Epping where I live. Corbyn is shrewd enough at least to promise so far to respect the Brexit vote while not completely ruling out a second referendum, Cable today though took an unambigiously 'Stop Brexit' line
From the polling. Almost a quarter of 2017 Tories are now voting Brexit Party at the next general election according to Yougov and almost half of 2017 Tories will vote Brexit Party at the European elections. Provided we leave the EU and Boris or Raab succeed May as Tory leader (and the Tory membership polls show either trouncing their rivals with Tory members) Brexit Party voters will return by the next general election.
I'm more than happy to accept the bulk of the Brexit Party is made up of disillusioned Conservatives but you make the road to getting them back sound so easy when we all know it isn't.
We can't leave and we can't remain. None of the options on offer has been able to produce a majority and your fantasy of somehow getting the WA through with a CU is meaningless. Would your heroes Johnson or Raab support a CU? I suspect not.
No they would not but the future relationship as even Barnier has said is not said in stone, the WA though is if passed
If the LDs can get 20% at the local elections in terms of the projected national share, it would be a good platform to get Remainers to vote for them at the Euros 3 weeks later instead of alternatives like ChangeUK and the Greens.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Yes he was articulate and expressed the anger of Leavers, the fact snowflake left liberal Remainers hated what he had to say proof of that
What happened to the art of persuasion?
The liberal diehard Remainer left will never be persuaded, forget them, unite the right to beat Corbyn and deliver Brexit
Listen to yourself, the vast majority of the country are not die hard either way on Brexit (let alone liberal! or left!), even if they were it would be important to persuade them.
As 4 times election winner John Howard said the most important thing in any election is to ensure your base is secure and only then reach out, at the moment the Tory base is leaking like a sieve to the Brexit Party
Would you consider defecting?
No, I voted Remain, even if the Tories fell behind the Brexit Party at the next general election I would stay Tory, though I expect the 2 parties in that case would have to merge eventually anyway, as happened in Canada when the Progressive Conservatives fell behind the Reform Party in 1993 and ultimately had to merge with the Alliance (the successor to Reform) to get back to power in 2006
Difficult to find a single subject on which Labour are at all coherent or competent. They are fortunate that the Tories seem to equally so. U.K. politics is really suffering from a lack of any party with any electoral credibility which is why Brexit is so toxic. No leadership either. Both major parties could do with a radical overhaul of the patronage they both practice, how they select candidates and their policy portfolio.
I'm wondering whether to put a small bet on the LDs getting most votes at the Euros, if the Brexit Party fails to live up to expectations and the two main parties do as badly as expected.
They’ve got the same message as 2017. It didn’t really do much for them then, so not sure why it would now. I think any revival in their fortunes depends on who they choose to replace Cable.
Difficult to find a single subject on which Labour are at all coherent or competent. They are fortunate that the Tories seem to equally so. U.K. politics is really suffering from a lack of any party with any electoral credibility which is why Brexit is so toxic. No leadership either. Both major parties could do with a radical overhaul of the patronage they both practice, how they select candidates and their policy portfolio.
I'm wondering whether to put a small bet on the LDs getting most votes at the Euros, if the Brexit Party fails to live up to expectations and the two main parties do as badly as expected.
They’ve got the same message as 2017. It didn’t really do much for them then, so not sure why it would now. I think any revival in their fortunes depends on who they choose to replace Cable.
2017 was a General Election so Labour benefited from the stop May getting a landslide effect. Also Cable is unlikely to spend half the campaign talking about sin.
I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.
I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
Given the D’Hondt formula and the way the polls appear to be shaping up, I expect LibDem would be a better Remain vote than CUK, in the Euros.
I think that depends on Region. In London, SE and possibly SW England CHUK have a reasonable chance.
How bad is it for Up-Chuk if they get 0 seats?
Clearly no good. How bad is it for the Tories if they get none?
Dan Hannan is definitely safe.
Yep - but what a waste. May was a muppet to prevent him being selected as the Tory candidate for Aldershot in 2017. It helps that he wasn’t mainstream Vote Leave.
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Do you really think Rhys Davis came over well last night?
Yes he was articulate and expressed the anger of Leavers, the fact snowflake left liberal Remainers hated what he had to say proof of that
What happened to the art of persuasion?
The liberal diehard Remainer left will never be persuaded, forget them, unite the right to beat Corbyn and deliver Brexit
Listen to yourself, the vast majority of the country are not die hard either way on Brexit (let alone liberal! or left!), even if they were it would be important to persuade them.
As 4 times election winner John Howard said the most important thing in any election is to ensure your base is secure and only then reach out, at the moment the Tory base is leaking like a sieve to the Brexit Party
You make the mistake of thinking that the Tories base is Brexit supporters and usually cite opinion polls that back this up. I don't agree with you. Some people who voted for Brexit, then, for one election backed the Tories in 2017. They are fickle voters who cannot be relied upon. What the Tories have done is take people like me who vote for them on economic grounds and philosophical reasons for granted. I know many people who voted Tory in 2017 and for their lifetime before that who will not entertain them again if they continue with this folly called Brexit. The only people who have left the Tories thus far in Westminster are the moderates, the irony of the Brexit supporting media is they weaken their argument by getting Tories to back the Brexit party as everything has consequences in politics and people like you don't understand it as a protest but think it is the emergence of a new trend....
Difficult to find a single subject on which Labour are at all coherent or competent. They are fortunate that the Tories seem to equally so. U.K. politics is really suffering from a lack of any party with any electoral credibility which is why Brexit is so toxic. No leadership either. Both major parties could do with a radical overhaul of the patronage they both practice, how they select candidates and their policy portfolio.
I'm wondering whether to put a small bet on the LDs getting most votes at the Euros, if the Brexit Party fails to live up to expectations and the two main parties do as badly as expected.
They’ve got the same message as 2017. It didn’t really do much for them then, so not sure why it would now. I think any revival in their fortunes depends on who they choose to replace Cable.
2017 was a General Election so Labour benefited from the stop May getting a landslide effect. Also Cable is unlikely to spend half the campaign talking about sin.
May was the architect of her own downfall - unable to say anything that wasn’t a speech written by a speechwriter or a sound bite, totally devoid of charisma, clueless on Brexit and creating a needless crisis over social care. Not sure Labour did anything much except avoid all talk of Brexit. If there was a time for a LibDem revival, that was it, particularly in all the seats they lost to the Tories in 2015. Didn’t happen.
Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?
The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?
It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.
It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.
I tend to feel that the polarisation over Brexit has accelerated recently with the passing of Brexit day. While fence-sitting previously served Labour well, as they allowed everyone to believe Labour was on their side, now I think that strategy is failing, as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.
The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
I don't think the point of decision has been reached. What happens if they don't make a decision now?
Conversely, if they do decide to go for a referendum for the purposes of the Euro elections, then it would be impossible for them not to vote for one in the Commons, but the leadership cabal seems very determined not to do so (at least for now).
Weasel words it will be, I'm sure.
It's too late for Labour to win back the votes of hardcore remainers in this election,
I don't like to say that something's rubbish but that is of the unadulterated type.
A week is a long time in politics. A day is a long time in Brexit politics. A month is an eternity.
One clear decisive move by the NEC on Tuesday to back a People's Vote and there will be a flood of remainers, like me, for Labour.
Only if Labour say, unambiguously, that Remain will be a choice on the ballot paper.
A “confirmatory vote” is ambiguous on the point.
No that's the whole point. They DON'T need to do anything necessarily about campaigning for Remain. What they need, we need, is a clear commitment to a confirmatory referendum, a people's vote.
That's all Remainers at the moment can realistically hope to get. And it's fine. Because we're confident that this time we will win.
Alastair Campbell put it brilliantly a little earlier today:
Corbyn not approving of Trumps visit is smart. Anyone watching the embarrassing Question Time last night will have noticed a very unpleasant fascist element in the Nottingham audience fueled by the abominable Rhys-Davies. The right are moving far to the right and it includes admiration of Trump. The left can go as left as they like and they'll still seem moderate. At last Corbyn is in-step with the zeitgeist
Rubbish. Tories plus Brexit Party on 41% in tonight's Yougov. Rhys-Davies roundly applauded frequently on QT
Exactly! Of course he was applauded by that Nottingham audience. It was full of fascists. I haven't seen anything like it since I used to demonstrate with the ANL at school.
But I'm sure your copious polls will confirm that those noisy Nazis are in quite a small minority even in Nottingham and the BBC audience were infiltrated
Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?
The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?
It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.
It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.
I tend to as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.
The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
I don't think the point of decision has been reached. What happens if they don't make a decision now?
Conversely, if they do decide to go for a referendum for the purposes of the Euro elections, then it would be impossible for them not to vote for one in the Commons, but the leadership cabal seems very determined not to do so (at least for now).
Weasel words it will be, I'm sure.
It's too late for Labour to win back the votes of hardcore remainers in this election,
I don't like to say that something's rubbish but that is of the unadulterated type.
A week is a long time in politics. A day is a long time in Brexit politics. A month is an eternity.
One clear decisive move by the NEC on Tuesday to back a People's Vote and there will be a flood of remainers, like me, for Labour.
Only if Labour say, unambiguously, that Remain will be a choice on the ballot paper.
A “confirmatory vote” is ambiguous on the point.
No that's the whole point. They DON'T need to do anything necessarily about campaigning for Remain. What they need, we need, is a clear commitment to a confirmatory referendum, a people's vote.
That's all Remainers at the moment can realistically hope to get. And it's fine. Because we're confident that this time we will win.
Alastair Campbell put it brilliantly a little earlier today:
Comments
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1121822082185203713
I do hope that Led By Donkeys have a few good stunts up their sleeves.
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1121567390284775424?s=19
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/26/brady-batten-backstop-brexit
How many others will survive?
As for John Rhys-Davies he was in Sliders and there's a cheap sci-fi film about an ice age where he seems to play the whole of NATO. In Sliders he played the Sheriff of San Francisco in a reality where North America was part of the Empire (that's the British Empire not someone else's or the one on the mirror Star Trek).
HAVE MESSED UP BLOCKQUOTES so this my response to @Stereotomy (above).
I have repeatedly over the last few years called out Corbyn for who he has met, what he has said or not said, the lies he has told and his failures to act on the principles he preaches, both under the line and in thread headers. Lazy on this I am not. Corbyn is a hypocrite - not because he chooses which causes to support (that is reasonable) but because even on the terms and principles he himself chooses he is utterly inconsistent and in a way which suggests that his principles are very different from those he claims to espouse. I won’t stop pointing this out because it makes for poor judgments and faulty decisions, qualities which I consider dangerous in someone who wants to be PM.
Incidentally, one of the most obvious examples of lazy whataboutery, sometimes seen on here, is Corbyn supporters, when there is a row about anti-semitism, raising the issue of islamophobia in the Tory party. Now I think that there is a problem with anti-Muslim prejudice within the Tory party and that they should deal with it (and have written a thread header on it). But to see such concerns being used to deflect attention from Labour’s own problems is a bit much, frankly.
The Greens could well be holed under the waterline by the Extinction Rebellion candidates. They're standing seven in London and two in the South-West - i.e. two of the three regions where the Greens currently have an MEP. Given that there's no second preferences in this election, this could be enough to deprive the Greens of a seat while not being enough to secure a seat in their own right.
CUK-TIG don't appear to have done anything right so far.
So if the Lib Dems can get some momentum coming out of the locals, this could be their first lucky break since, what, 2010? But I'll believe it when I see it...
He also never backed apartheid but warned of the population explosion in Africa forecast thus century
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/feb/01/film.politics
That's all Remainers at the moment can realistically hope to get. And it's fine. Because we're confident that this time we will win.
Alastair Campbell put it brilliantly a little earlier today:
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1121809760368635904
What did I ever do to you?
We can't leave and we can't remain. None of the options on offer has been able to produce a majority and your fantasy of somehow getting the WA through with a CU is meaningless. Would your heroes Johnson or Raab support a CU? I suspect not.
"Whatever happened to TV’s working-class heroes?
Television is awfully posh – and all the poorer for it
Fiona Sturges"
https://unherd.com/2019/04/whatever-happened-to-tvs-working-class-heroes/
But I'm sure your copious polls will confirm that those noisy Nazis are in quite a small minority even in Nottingham and the BBC audience were infiltrated
(PS What was Fiona B thinking about?)
Seats:
Con 264
Lab 293
LD/CHUK 28
Brexit/UKIP 1(Thurrock)
Green 1
PC 3
SNP 41
NI 18
Lab minority government. 33 short of overall majority.