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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The May 23rd Euro elections – how the pollsters did last time

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384

    The collapse in the conservative support was entirely predicatable as soon as new EU elections were called.

    TM must shoulder the responsibility along with ERG and Dominic Grieve for this shambles

    Each one fighting each other was madness and had they all supported the first WDA we would now be out of the EU and TM and the conservatives would be riding high

    I hope this break and the collapse in the polls will bring them to their senses to pass the WDA and leave on the 1st June, thereby extinguishing the Brexit party before it extinguishes them

    It's hard to disagree, except I doubt if anything will bring them to their senses.

    The Spartans will think it's because we aren't pursuing a no deal Brexit. Grieve will think it's because we aren't cancelling Brexit.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    brendan16 said:

    justin124 said:

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    I do not see how 'inviting Farage everywhere' will be permitted under the rules applied during the campaign. Doubtless the major parties will have their lawyers primed to intervene.
    Maybe - but their response might be well Farage is second in the EU parliament polls so we are just reflecting current public opinion.

    They can always wheel out Nancy or Diane James when he isn’t available.

    I presume Farage will have to drop his LBC show during the campaign as he will be a candidate - although presumably Rees Mogg can fill in for him (Jacob that is!).
    The rules which the broadcasters are obliged to follow relate to parties - not individuals. The time allocated to political parties is determined by whether they have been deemed to be worthy of 'major' or 'minor' party status - which in turn would be influenced by performance in recent elections - including by elections. The difficulty facing the Brexit Party - and ChangeUK - is that it has no track record at all in that no votes have ever been cast for it. Registering reasonable scores in some opinion polls a few weeks before the elections are due to take place is unlikely to be sufficient to justify 'major' party status - particularly as the parties concerned have failed to contest the Local Elections on 2nd May. I would suggest that these new parties have appeared too late - and that the Tories and Labour would be well placed to have complaints upheld , were any attempt made to award such status.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,168

    Dan Hannan won't be standing surely.

    David Campbell Bannerman has done the decent thing and said he won't stand.
    He may stand for the Brexit Party
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384

    HYUFD said:

    I think the Tories will lose 1000 to 1200 seats on May 2 and tbh I think they'd take that atm.
    The euros are going to be brutal though. The interest for me is who wins from green, lib, chuk

    In the 2015 locals the Tories won 5,521 seats to 2,278 seats for Labour, so losing 1000 to 1200 seats would still see the Tories win more seats than Labour on May 2nd even if the Euros prove a bloodbath (though of course the Tories were 3rd in the 2014 Euros anyway).


    It would also still be better than the Tories did in the 1995 locals when they lost 2,018 seats overnight
    It wont be as bad as 95 for sure, labour dont have the support Blair did, but ironically the euros will be much worse than 94 with Major vs Beckett
    It's not a like for like comparison. We had first past the post in 1994.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think the Tories will lose 1000 to 1200 seats on May 2 and tbh I think they'd take that atm.
    The euros are going to be brutal though. The interest for me is who wins from green, lib, chuk

    In the 2015 locals the Tories won 5,521 seats to 2,278 seats for Labour, so losing 1000 to 1200 seats would still see the Tories win more seats than Labour on May 2nd even if the Euros prove a bloodbath (though of course the Tories were 3rd in the 2014 Euros anyway).


    It would also still be better than the Tories did in the 1995 locals when they lost 2,018 seats overnight
    It wont be as bad as 95 for sure, labour dont have the support Blair did, but ironically the euros will be much worse than 94 with Major vs Beckett
    It's not a like for like comparison. We had first past the post in 1994.
    I'd forgotten it was fptp still. UKIP got 1%, bless
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,168
    edited April 2019

    HYUFD said:

    I think the Tories will lose 1000 to 1200 seats on May 2 and tbh I think they'd take that atm.
    The euros are going to be brutal though. The interest for me is who wins from green, lib, chuk

    In the 2015 locals the Tories won 5,521 seats to 2,278 seats for Labour, so losing 1000 to 1200 seats would still see the Tories win more seats than Labour on May 2nd even if the Euros prove a bloodbath (though of course the Tories were 3rd in the 2014 Euros anyway).


    It would also still be better than the Tories did in the 1995 locals when they lost 2,018 seats overnight
    It wont be as bad as 95 for sure, labour dont have the support Blair did, but ironically the euros will be much worse than 94 with Major vs Beckett
    Those Euros were under FPTP not PR though and though the Tories may do worse than the 26.8% Major's Tories did then they are unlikely to trail Labour by 16% of the vote either as the Tories did in 1994
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    AndyJS said:

    The Tories were doing pretty well in the polls until only a couple of weeks ago. It's almost as if they've talked themselves down in popularity since then with their relentlessly gloomy approach, personified by Hammond.

    Or, maybe the whole not leaving Europe on the date they said they would? Correlation not causation and all that bit it is uncanny when you think about it.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    justin124 said:

    brendan16 said:

    justin124 said:

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    I do not see how 'inviting Farage everywhere' will be permitted under the rules applied during the campaign. Doubtless the major parties will have their lawyers primed to intervene.
    Maybe - but their response might be well Farage is second in the EU parliament polls so we are just reflecting current public opinion.

    They can always wheel out Nancy or Diane James when he isn’t available.

    I presume Farage will have to drop his LBC show during the campaign as he will be a candidate - although presumably Rees Mogg can fill in for him (Jacob that is!).
    The rules which the broadcasters are obliged to follow relate to parties - not individuals. The time allocated to political parties is determined by whether they have been deemed to be worthy of 'major' or 'minor' party status - which in turn would be influenced by performance in recent elections - including by elections. The difficulty facing the Brexit Party - and ChangeUK - is that it has no track record at all in that no votes have ever been cast for it. Registering reasonable scores in some opinion polls a few weeks before the elections are due to take place is unlikely to be sufficient to justify 'major' party status - particularly as the parties concerned have failed to contest the Local Elections on 2nd May. I would suggest that these new parties have appeared too late - and that the Tories and Labour would be well placed to have complaints upheld , were any attempt made to award such status.
    It seems reasonable to me for the rules to account for party splits. There would be some justification for the broadcasters considering the Brexit Party to be the successor party to the UKIP of 2014, even if they don't have the official name.

    How do you think this should affect the Greens and the Lib Dems? The Greens outpolled the Lib Dems in 2014, so it would be strange for the Lib Dems to receive more attention.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,483
    Sean_F said:

    The Telegraph have an interesting take on the extension. They are reporting that the socialists round the table, Spain, Greece, etc wanted the UK to hold EU elections because Labour would do well and they are part of the socialist grouping in the EU. Whereas no UK political party is part of the EPP the main competition to the socialists. Did Corbyn not attend a big socialist summit in Spain not so long ago.

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    CUK is an utter shambles. Still at least it will give centrists something to blame other than their politics when they disappear
    It's a paradox that while Farage Mark 2 generates a media bandwagon, Change UK with 11 MP's get little coverage.
    Hmmm. Who is in the shadows behind Farage with useful Press strings?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    justin124 said:

    brendan16 said:

    justin124 said:

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    I do not see how 'inviting Farage everywhere' will be permitted under the rules applied during the campaign. Doubtless the major parties will have their lawyers primed to intervene.
    Maybe - but their response might be well Farage is second in the EU parliament polls so we are just reflecting current public opinion.

    They can always wheel out Nancy or Diane James when he isn’t available.

    I presume Farage will have to drop his LBC show during the campaign as he will be a candidate - although presumably Rees Mogg can fill in for him (Jacob that is!).
    The rules which the broadcasters are obliged to follow relate to parties - not individuals. The time allocated to political parties is determined by whether they have been deemed to be worthy of 'major' or 'minor' party status - which in turn would be influenced by performance in recent elections - including by elections. The difficulty facing the Brexit Party - and ChangeUK - is that it has no track record at all in that no votes have ever been cast for it. Registering reasonable scores in some opinion polls a few weeks before the elections are due to take place is unlikely to be sufficient to justify 'major' party status - particularly as the parties concerned have failed to contest the Local Elections on 2nd May. I would suggest that these new parties have appeared too late - and that the Tories and Labour would be well placed to have complaints upheld , were any attempt made to award such status.
    It doesn't matter. Farage's party will get loads of attention from newspapers and social media (and people slagging off Farage will be very helpful in generating that publicity).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384

    HYUFD said:

    I think the Tories will lose 1000 to 1200 seats on May 2 and tbh I think they'd take that atm.
    The euros are going to be brutal though. The interest for me is who wins from green, lib, chuk

    In the 2015 locals the Tories won 5,521 seats to 2,278 seats for Labour, so losing 1000 to 1200 seats would still see the Tories win more seats than Labour on May 2nd even if the Euros prove a bloodbath (though of course the Tories were 3rd in the 2014 Euros anyway).


    It would also still be better than the Tories did in the 1995 locals when they lost 2,018 seats overnight
    It wont be as bad as 95 for sure, labour dont have the support Blair did, but ironically the euros will be much worse than 94 with Major vs Beckett
    If Yougov is to be believed (and I expect Opinium's numbers would be similar) 21% of 2017 Conservatives have shifted rightwards, compared to 3% supporting Labour (offset by 4% of Labour voters moving rightwards). So, while Labour will benefit from Conservatives abstaining, they aren't gaining many switchers.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    HYUFD said:

    Dan Hannan won't be standing surely.

    David Campbell Bannerman has done the decent thing and said he won't stand.
    He may stand for the Brexit Party
    I think one of the reasons he left UKIP was that he didn’t get on with Farage.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited April 2019

    justin124 said:

    brendan16 said:

    justin124 said:

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Maybe - but their response might be well Farage is second in the EU parliament polls so we are just reflecting current public opinion.

    They can always wheel out Nancy or Diane James when he isn’t available.

    I presume Farage will have to drop his LBC show during the campaign as he will be a candidate - although presumably Rees Mogg can fill in for him (Jacob that is!).
    The rules which the broadcasters are obliged to follow relate to parties - not individuals. The time allocated to political parties is determined by whether they have been deemed to be worthy of 'major' or 'minor' party status - which in turn would be influenced by performance in recent elections - including by elections. The difficulty facing the Brexit Party - and ChangeUK - is that it has no track record at all in that no votes have ever been cast for it. Registering reasonable scores in some opinion polls a few weeks before the elections are due to take place is unlikely to be sufficient to justify 'major' party status - particularly as the parties concerned have failed to contest the Local Elections on 2nd May. I would suggest that these new parties have appeared too late - and that the Tories and Labour would be well placed to have complaints upheld , were any attempt made to award such status.
    It seems reasonable to me for the rules to account for party splits. There would be some justification for the broadcasters considering the Brexit Party to be the successor party to the UKIP of 2014, even if they don't have the official name.

    How do you think this should affect the Greens and the Lib Dems? The Greens outpolled the Lib Dems in 2014, so it would be strange for the Lib Dems to receive more attention.
    I see no reason why the LibDems should receive more coverage than the Greens in these elections. They did poorly in 2014 and on the basis of the 2015 & 2017 elections would no longer qualify for 'major' party status in a general election.
    As for the Brexit Party being the successor party to UKIP , who has the right to claim that? UKIP still exits and polled almost 9% at a by election a week ago . To repeat my earlier point, I am not aware that Farage has been elected leader of his new party. He is self appointed and answerable to no one.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,582
    Sean_F said:

    The Telegraph have an interesting take on the extension. They are reporting that the socialists round the table, Spain, Greece, etc wanted the UK to hold EU elections because Labour would do well and they are part of the socialist grouping in the EU. Whereas no UK political party is part of the EPP the main competition to the socialists. Did Corbyn not attend a big socialist summit in Spain not so long ago.

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    CUK is an utter shambles. Still at least it will give centrists something to blame other than their politics when they disappear
    It's a paradox that while Farage Mark 2 generates a media bandwagon, Change UK with 11 MP's get little coverage.
    Paradox resolved: Change UK have no real communicable agenda apart from keeping things the same by Remaining. This may be important but flies in the face of its hopelessly unoriginal name. And while they have some very reasonable and decent members - Heidi Allen stands out - they don't have a single charismatic leader. An agenda of keeping things the same while calling yourself 'Change' makes good Matt cartoons ('What don't we want...When don't we want it' etc) but is of limited appeal to a personality driven media. And there isn't a route for them to win any seats and retain their careers, so they look like losers. Bingo.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    With all due respect to Flavible, there is no way the LibDems get 33 seats on 11% of the vote.
    Might be weirdness caused by the Con 28 share.

    Once pleasing thing about the map is that the CUKs are wiped out.
    If one purpose of CUK is to stop Corbyn getting an overall majority, they'd be happy if their participation has that effect.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Sean_F said:

    The Telegraph have an interesting take on the extension. They are reporting that the socialists round the table, Spain, Greece, etc wanted the UK to hold EU elections because Labour would do well and they are part of the socialist grouping in the EU. Whereas no UK political party is part of the EPP the main competition to the socialists. Did Corbyn not attend a big socialist summit in Spain not so long ago.

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    CUK is an utter shambles. Still at least it will give centrists something to blame other than their politics when they disappear
    It's a paradox that while Farage Mark 2 generates a media bandwagon, Change UK with 11 MP's get little coverage.
    Farage has something to say that resonates.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Telegraph have an interesting take on the extension. They are reporting that the socialists round the table, Spain, Greece, etc wanted the UK to hold EU elections because Labour would do well and they are part of the socialist grouping in the EU. Whereas no UK political party is part of the EPP the main competition to the socialists. Did Corbyn not attend a big socialist summit in Spain not so long ago.

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    CUK is an utter shambles. Still at least it will give centrists something to blame other than their politics when they disappear
    It's a paradox that while Farage Mark 2 generates a media bandwagon, Change UK with 11 MP's get little coverage.
    Paradox resolved: Change UK have no real communicable agenda apart from keeping things the same by Remaining. This may be important but flies in the face of its hopelessly unoriginal name. And while they have some very reasonable and decent members - Heidi Allen stands out - they don't have a single charismatic leader. An agenda of keeping things the same while calling yourself 'Change' makes good Matt cartoons ('What don't we want...When don't we want it' etc) but is of limited appeal to a personality driven media. And there isn't a route for them to win any seats and retain their careers, so they look like losers. Bingo.
    Nigel Farage hasn’t articulated what he wants. But his version of nihilism has more subscribers.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    brendan16 said:

    justin124 said:

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    I do not see how 'inviting Farage everywhere' will be permitted under the rules applied during the campaign. Doubtless the major parties will have their lawyers primed to intervene.
    Maybe - but their response might be well Farage is second in the EU parliament polls so we are just reflecting current public opinion.

    They can always wheel out Nancy or Diane James when he isn’t available.

    I presume Farage will have to drop his LBC show during the campaign as he will be a candidate - although presumably Rees Mogg can fill in for him (Jacob that is!).
    The rules which the broadcasters are obliged to follow relate to parties - not individuals. The time allocated to political parties is determined by whether they have been deemed to be worthy of 'major' or 'minor' party status - which in turn would be influenced by performance in recent elections - including by elections. The difficulty facing the Brexit Party - and ChangeUK - is that it has no track record at all in that no votes have ever been cast for it. Registering reasonable scores in some opinion polls a few weeks before the elections are due to take place is unlikely to be sufficient to justify 'major' party status - particularly as the parties concerned have failed to contest the Local Elections on 2nd May. I would suggest that these new parties have appeared too late - and that the Tories and Labour would be well placed to have complaints upheld , were any attempt made to award such status.
    It doesn't matter. Farage's party will get loads of attention from newspapers and social media (and people slagging off Farage will be very helpful in generating that publicity).
    That is a fair point - though were any Debates to be organised there would be reasonable justification for excluding the Brexit and ChangeUK parties. In reality, these elections have always been so low profile that such debates are rather unlikely.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580


    I'm not a teacher, but I've a lot of relations who are. It's always seemed to me that whoever said we're all experts on education because we've all been to school hit the nail on the head. Trouble is, as a pupil, or the parents of pupils we look at it through a very narrow view. I worked in health and heard all sorts of strange opinions about GP's and other health professionals, which were largely the result of one or two experiences, or experiences of one or two professionals, and that really isn't representative.

    Just look at how far we have fallen compared to other countries. Our education system is a joke and yet our teaching profession still try to pretend it is fit for purpose. You don't have to be any kind of expert to see how that is an indictment of both our politicians and the teaching profession.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580


    And I certainly think Nick Palmer's views of Gove are far more accurate than your father's given they match my own...

    Peak Tyndall.
    Trough Glenn
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Telegraph have an interesting take on the extension. They are reporting that the socialists round the table, Spain, Greece, etc wanted the UK to hold EU elections because Labour would do well and they are part of the socialist grouping in the EU. Whereas no UK political party is part of the EPP the main competition to the socialists. Did Corbyn not attend a big socialist summit in Spain not so long ago.

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    CUK is an utter shambles. Still at least it will give centrists something to blame other than their politics when they disappear
    It's a paradox that while Farage Mark 2 generates a media bandwagon, Change UK with 11 MP's get little coverage.
    Paradox resolved: Change UK have no real communicable agenda apart from keeping things the same by Remaining. This may be important but flies in the face of its hopelessly unoriginal name. And while they have some very reasonable and decent members - Heidi Allen stands out - they don't have a single charismatic leader. An agenda of keeping things the same while calling yourself 'Change' makes good Matt cartoons ('What don't we want...When don't we want it' etc) but is of limited appeal to a personality driven media. And there isn't a route for them to win any seats and retain their careers, so they look like losers. Bingo.
    Nigel Farage hasn’t articulated what he wants. But his version of nihilism has more subscribers.
    I'd say he's more wrecker than nihilist.

    Anyway, here's a rather good article about the current state of brexitation:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/11/opinion/brexit-extension-european-union.html

    I particularly like the line

    "Brexit is not doable because it makes no sense....."
  • Anyone else bored now that Brexit is done?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Wasting a good opportunity to say nothing Tiger Woods is 43.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Following recent polls, I would expect the LibDems to support a VNOC tabled by Corbyn!
  • Billy Vunipola booed by Bristol fans as McCall reaffirms Saracens stance.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/apr/13/billy-vunipola-booed-bristol-mccall-saracens
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,007
    Toms said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Telegraph have an interesting take on the extension. They are reporting that the socialists round the table, Spain, Greece, etc wanted the UK to hold EU elections because Labour would do well and they are part of the socialist grouping in the EU. Whereas no UK political party is part of the EPP the main competition to the socialists. Did Corbyn not attend a big socialist summit in Spain not so long ago.

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    CUK is an utter shambles. Still at least it will give centrists something to blame other than their politics when they disappear
    It's a paradox that while Farage Mark 2 generates a media bandwagon, Change UK with 11 MP's get little coverage.
    Paradox resolved: Change UK have no real communicable agenda apart from keeping things the same by Remaining. This may be important but flies in the face of its hopelessly unoriginal name. And while they have some very reasonable and decent members - Heidi Allen stands out - they don't have a single charismatic leader. An agenda of keeping things the same while calling yourself 'Change' makes good Matt cartoons ('What don't we want...When don't we want it' etc) but is of limited appeal to a personality driven media. And there isn't a route for them to win any seats and retain their careers, so they look like losers. Bingo.
    Nigel Farage hasn’t articulated what he wants. But his version of nihilism has more subscribers.
    I'd say he's more wrecker than nihilist.

    Probably so.
    The true nihilist would accept all the personal consequences of rejecting political & social structures, to the point of extreme self sacrifice. Farage couldn't stretch to giving up his ciggies and pint. Or walking more than a few dozen miles.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,802
    AndyJS said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    It didn't work with the teachers but then they have long been completely off the rails and unwilling to accept that their whole profession has been an utter failure for the last 3 or more decades.

    His work at both Justice and Environment where he has manged to build bridges and introduce real and meaningful reform shows how wrong headed the teachers are in their views. We have a third world education system and that started decades before Gove ever got near the department. Teachers bear a lot of the responsibility for that.

    Rubbish. It didn't work because ultimately his ideas however well intentioned were badly executed and ignored expert warnings as to the very real problems they would cause. All of which have been proven right.

    As for the rest, you think I'm strident in my views on Gove? You should hear what my father (a vet who works in preparation for epidemics) thinks of him. And he's literally a card-carrying Conservative. Don't be fooled into thinking Nick Palmer is typical.

    I can't help it if you're determined to resort to the aforementioned myths based on ignorance about education. It's a bit strange you think you know more about it than I do, but it's a free country and you're entitled to think it if you want. After all, unlike Gove your views are ultimately harmless and will not wreck the education of millions of children and damage our skills base going forward.

    I do find it a bit depressing though.
    Gove is an absolute useless arsehole, only looking after himself , pushed on by his wife who is equally bad. Why anyone would think the backstabbing toerag has any talent or principles is beyond me.
    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.
    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Any Prince Charles fans here?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    isam said:

    Any Prince Charles fans here?

    Utterly horrible. Its point is....?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    isam said:

    Any Prince Charles fans here?

    Oh YYYY--NNNNO.

    What have they done to the beautiful Meghan? I don't remember her eyes being so close together.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888
    isam said:

    Any Prince Charles fans here?

    Monarchy = socialism :lol:
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    isam said:

    Any Prince Charles fans here?


  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    With all due respect to Flavible, there is no way the LibDems get 33 seats on 11% of the vote.
    Given that the UKIP, Brexit and CUK votes are spread evenly and wasted, the LibDems are effectively batting from 13% against the Tories on about 32%. That's a much narrower gap than last time and would enable the LibDems to recover their position in Wales and the West Country.
  • I'm a socialist and a monarchist. And I don't see a contradiction
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    edited April 2019

    The collapse in the conservative support was entirely predicatable as soon as new EU elections were called.

    TM must shoulder the responsibility along with ERG and Dominic Grieve for this shambles

    Each one fighting each other was madness and had they all supported the first WDA we would now be out of the EU and TM and the conservatives would be riding high

    I hope this break and the collapse in the polls will bring them to their senses to pass the WDA and leave on the 1st June, thereby extinguishing the Brexit party before it extinguishes them

    The only way for the WDA to be passed in the near future is with official Labour support. And its very unlikely to get official Labour support in the near future unless a referendum is tacked on. And if a referendum is tacked on there will probably have to be a further extension of A50. Which means that the chance of the UK being out of the EU in time to cancel the EP elections is minimal.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Scott_P said:
    Corbyn is likely to get in because The Tories look like a bunch of fruitcakes and Corbyn looks like the only person who can save us from them. Remarkable but true
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Anyone else bored now that Brexit is done?

    'Done' as in abandoned?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,135
    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Andy, perhaps now would be a good time to step away from the Breitbart and go to the pub, yes? PB will still be there in the morning.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Toms said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Telegraph have an interesting take on the extension. They are reporting that the socialists round the table, Spain, Greece, etc wanted the UK to hold EU elections because Labour would do well and they are part of the socialist grouping in the EU. Whereas no UK political party is part of the EPP the main competition to the socialists. Did Corbyn not attend a big socialist summit in Spain not so long ago.

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    CUK is an utter shambles. Still at least it will give centrists something to blame other than their politics when they disappear
    It's a paradox that while Farage Mark 2 generates a media bandwagon, Change UK with 11 MP's get little coverage.
    Paradox resolved: Change UK have no real communicable agenda apart from keeping things the same by Remaining. This may be important but flies in the face of its hopelessly unoriginal name. And while they have some very reasonable and decent members - Heidi Allen stands out - they don't have a single charismatic leader. An agenda of keeping things the same while calling yourself 'Change' makes good Matt cartoons ('What don't we want...When don't we want it' etc) but is of limited appeal to a personality driven media. And there isn't a route for them to win any seats and retain their careers, so they look like losers. Bingo.
    Nigel Farage hasn’t articulated what he wants. But his version of nihilism has more subscribers.
    I'd say he's more wrecker than nihilist.

    Probably so.
    The true nihilist would accept all the personal consequences of rejecting political & social structures, to the point of extreme self sacrifice. Farage couldn't stretch to giving up his ciggies and pint. Or walking more than a few dozen miles.
    It’s revealing that he waited until a No Deal Brexit was ruled out before coming back to fight for it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,007
    Vote Tory to deliver Brexit, because look at what a marvellous job they've done of that so far.

    https://twitter.com/davidberens/status/1117163950318280705
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,135
    isam said:

    Any Prince Charles fans here?

    Well, yes. But it has to be said this acts oddly in favour of the Charles-is-actually-the-father-of-Harry theory, since the face-swapped version seems the same.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Scott_P said:
    I must have missed the GE being called.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    With all due respect to Flavible, there is no way the LibDems get 33 seats on 11% of the vote.
    Given that the UKIP, Brexit and CUK votes are spread evenly and wasted, the LibDems are effectively batting from 13% against the Tories on about 32%. That's a much narrower gap than last time and would enable the LibDems to recover their position in Wales and the West Country.
    Indeed so - and that Yougov poll had the Tories as low as 28% with the LibDems on 11% - implying a swing from Con to LD of circa 9%. That could well take them to circa 30 seats or so - though I doubt they would regain Leeds NW from Labour. Southport would probably be unlikely too given the fall to third place in 2017.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    I'm a socialist and a monarchist. And I don't see a contradiction

    Socialists don't believe in nepotism. The monarchy relies on it.
  • matt said:

    Scott_P said:
    I must have missed the GE being called.
    It is analysis by Professor Sir John Curtice (pbuh), he's always right.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Roger said:

    I'm a socialist and a monarchist. And I don't see a contradiction

    Socialists don't believe in nepotism. The monarchy relies on it.
    Have you looked into the Labour leadership’s office arrangements?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Roger said:

    Scott_P said:
    Corbyn is likely to get in because The Tories look like a bunch of fruitcakes and Corbyn looks like the only person who can save us from them. Remarkable but true
    A minority Corbyn government with a C&S arrangement with the Lib Dems and/or SNP could not be worse than the "government" we have now. And could be considerably better.
  • Y'all know what the term 'turning Japanese' means don't you?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Vote Tory to deliver Brexit, because look at what a marvellous job they've done of that so far.

    https://twitter.com/davidberens/status/1117163950318280705

    Because youre not Corbyn and being a monumental wanker to the disabled gives you mild wood
    Because you want to promise the earth and deliver a spoon
    Because you're morally dead
    Because you believe the trickle down bullshit
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888

    I'm a socialist and a monarchist. And I don't see a contradiction

    Socialism = jobs for life
    Monarchy = jobs for life

    Monarchy = Socialism :lol:
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    Any Prince Charles fans here?

    Well, yes. But it has to be said this acts oddly in favour of the Charles-is-actually-the-father-of-Harry theory, since the face-swapped version seems the same.
    Sorry? Was there ever a suggestion that Harry wasn't the son of Prince Charles?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Toms said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Telegraph have an interesting take on the extension. They are reporting that the competition to the socialists. Did Corbyn not attend a big socialist summit in Spain not so long ago.

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    CUK is an utter shambles. Still at least it will give centrists something to blame other than their politics when they disappear
    It's a paradox that while Farage Mark 2 generates a media bandwagon, Change UK with 11 MP's get little coverage.
    Paradox resolved: Change UK have no real communicable agenda apart from keeping things the same by Remaining. This may be important but flies in the face of its hopelessly unoriginal name. And while they have some very reasonable and decent members - Heidi Allen stands out - they don't have a single charismatic leader. An agenda of keeping things the same while calling yourself 'Change' makes good Matt cartoons ('What don't we want...When don't we want it' etc) but is of limited appeal to a personality driven media. And there isn't a route for them to win any seats and retain their careers, so they look like losers. Bingo.
    Nigel Farage hasn’t articulated what he wants. But his version of nihilism has more subscribers.
    I'd say he's more wrecker than nihilist.

    Probably so.
    The true nihilist would accept all the personal consequences of rejecting political & social structures, to the point of extreme self sacrifice. Farage couldn't stretch to giving up his ciggies and pint. Or walking more than a few dozen miles.
    It’s revealing that he waited until a No Deal Brexit was ruled out before coming back to fight for it.
    Wasn’t it March 29th coming and going without us having left that brought on the comeback?
  • eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

    When I become the country's first directly elected dictator/imperator of the UK I'd abolish the department of education, use the money as non transferable vouchers to parents.

    Fee paying schools are one of the country's finest things, producing so many awesome people as well fantastically well educated.

    Watch this country's education performance soar as education is privatised.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,135

    Y'all know what the term 'turning Japanese' means don't you?

    It's a fine record from one of the finest periods in British music history. And absolutely nothing to do with the face you make when you [redacted]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLQeb5NGt3E
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    edited April 2019
    justin124 said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    With all due respect to Flavible, there is no way the LibDems get 33 seats on 11% of the vote.
    Given that the UKIP, Brexit and CUK votes are spread evenly and wasted, the LibDems are effectively batting from 13% against the Tories on about 32%. That's a much narrower gap than last time and would enable the LibDems to recover their position in Wales and the West Country.
    Indeed so - and that Yougov poll had the Tories as low as 28% with the LibDems on 11% - implying a swing from Con to LD of circa 9%. That could well take them to circa 30 seats or so - though I doubt they would regain Leeds NW from Labour. Southport would probably be unlikely too given the fall to third place in 2017.
    It says a lot that when Labour is at 29% the LDs get 72 seats in Westminster, but when the tories are at that level LDs think 30 seats is a good result!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    isam said:

    Any Prince Charles fans here?

    Yes, he will be a fine King. Not that being Monarch requires merit, indeed that is the antithesis of the institution. Next in line becomes Sovereign, whether saint or dickhead.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888
    Do you know why I want there to be Euro Elections?

    Because last time around (to my eternal shame), I was seduced by the Purple Surge that was UKIP, it was the one and only time I voted UKIP, so I don't want the 2014 vote to be the last Euro Elections we'll ever have!

    (hope that makes sense!)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    isam said:

    Toms said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Telegraph have an interesting take on the extension. They are reporting that the competition to the socialists. Did Corbyn not attend a big socialist summit in Spain not so long ago.

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    CUK is an utter shambles. Still at least it will give centrists something to blame other than their politics when they disappear
    It's a paradox that while Farage Mark 2 generates a media bandwagon, Change UK with 11 MP's get little coverage.
    Paradox resolved: Change UK have no real communicable agenda apart from keeping things the same by Remaining. This may be important but flies in the face of its hopelessly unoriginal name. And while they have some very reasonable and decent members - Heidi Allen stands out - they don't have a single charismatic leader. An agenda of keeping things the same while calling yourself 'Change' makes good Matt cartoons ('What don't we want...When don't we want it' etc) but is of limited appeal to a personality driven media. And there isn't a route for them to win any seats and retain their careers, so they look like losers. Bingo.
    Nigel Farage hasn’t articulated what he wants. But his version of nihilism has more subscribers.
    I'd say he's more wrecker than nihilist.

    Probably so.
    The true nihilist would accept all the personal consequences of rejecting political & social structures, to the point of extreme self sacrifice. Farage couldn't stretch to giving up his ciggies and pint. Or walking more than a few dozen miles.
    It’s revealing that he waited until a No Deal Brexit was ruled out before coming back to fight for it.
    Wasn’t it March 29th coming and going without us having left that brought on the comeback?
    If he was that bothered about leaving on March 29th, he'd have lifted a finger before then.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,289

    matt said:

    Scott_P said:
    I must have missed the GE being called.
    It is analysis by Professor Sir John Curtice (pbuh), he's always right.
    I know there are different house ways of treating the data, but, I have to admit, the concept of an 'Exclusive Poll of Polls' does leave me scratching my head slightly.
  • Roger said:

    Anyone else bored now that Brexit is done?

    'Done' as in abandoned?
    Yepper
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    edited April 2019

    eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

    When I become the country's first directly elected dictator/imperator of the UK I'd abolish the department of education, use the money as non transferable vouchers to parents.

    Fee paying schools are one of the country's finest things, producing so many awesome people .
    Such as David Cameron and Boris Johnson.

    The men who did more than anyone else to create todays Conservative Party.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Monarchy. We should bid it farewell with our thanks and much love and turn a new page. This is 2019, its insane to have hereditary authority
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,135
    eristdoof said:

    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    Any Prince Charles fans here?

    Well, yes. But it has to be said this acts oddly in favour of the Charles-is-actually-the-father-of-Harry theory, since the face-swapped version seems the same.
    Sorry? Was there ever a suggestion that Harry wasn't the son of Prince Charles?
    Never. It was never rumoured that the redhaired Prince Harry was the child of anybody else other than the dark-haired Prince Charles. And definitely not because his blonde mother Princess Diana had an affair with the redhaired James Hewitt. And they've taken gene tests so that's alright then.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,710

    the Purple Surge

    Sounds painful!
  • eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

    When I become the country's first directly elected dictator/imperator of the UK I'd abolish the department of education, use the money as non transferable vouchers to parents.

    Fee paying schools are one of the country's finest things, producing so many awesome people .
    Such as David Cameron and Boris Johnson
    One became PM, the other Foreign Secretary.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741


    I'm not a teacher, but I've a lot of relations who are. It's always seemed to me that whoever said we're all experts on education because we've all been to school hit the nail on the head. Trouble is, as a pupil, or the parents of pupils we look at it through a very narrow view. I worked in health and heard all sorts of strange opinions about GP's and other health professionals, which were largely the result of one or two experiences, or experiences of one or two professionals, and that really isn't representative.

    Just look at how far we have fallen compared to other countries. Our education system is a joke and yet our teaching profession still try to pretend it is fit for purpose. You don't have to be any kind of expert to see how that is an indictment of both our politicians and the teaching profession.
    Or perhaps our parenting abilities. When children start school wearing nappies, unable to hold a pencil or utensils, or dress themselves, it is a difficult start for child and also teachers.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Do you know why I want there to be Euro Elections?

    Because last time around (to my eternal shame), I was seduced by the Purple Surge that was UKIP, it was the one and only time I voted UKIP, so I don't want the 2014 vote to be the last Euro Elections we'll ever have!

    (hope that makes sense!)

    The ultimate act of repentance - a wonderful opportunity for cleansing and purification!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Toms said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Telegraph have an interesting take on the extension. They are reporting that the competition to the socialists. Did Corbyn not attend a big socialist summit in Spain not so long ago.

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    CUK is an utter shambles. Still at least it will give centrists something to blame other than their politics when they disappear
    It's a paradox that while Farage Mark 2 generates a media bandwagon, Change UK with 11 MP's get little coverage.
    t have a single charismatic leader. An agenda of keeping things the same while calling yourself 'Change' makes good Matt cartoons ('What don't we want...When don't we want it' etc) but is of limited appeal to a personality driven media. And there isn't a route for them to win any seats and retain their careers, so they look like losers. Bingo.
    Nigel Farage hasn’t articulated what he wants. But his version of nihilism has more subscribers.
    I'd say he's more wrecker than nihilist.

    Probably so.
    The true nihilist would accept all the personal consequences of rejecting political & social structures, to the point of extreme self sacrifice. Farage couldn't stretch to giving up his ciggies and pint. Or walking more than a few dozen miles.
    It’s revealing that he waited until a No Deal Brexit was ruled out before coming back to fight for it.
    Wasn’t it March 29th coming and going without us having left that brought on the comeback?
    If he was that bothered about leaving on March 29th, he'd have lifted a finger before then.
    What could he have done?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,247

    eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

    When I become the country's first directly elected dictator/imperator of the UK I'd abolish the department of education, use the money as non transferable vouchers to parents.

    Fee paying schools are one of the country's finest things, producing so many awesome people as well fantastically well educated.

    Watch this country's education performance soar as education is privatised.
    If you doubled the education budget, it might almost make sense.
    Otherwise, utter bollocks.

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    I'm a socialist and a monarchist. And I don't see a contradiction

    Socialism = jobs for life
    Monarchy = jobs for life

    Monarchy = Socialism :lol:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_undistributed_middle
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741

    eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

    When I become the country's first directly elected dictator/imperator of the UK I'd abolish the department of education, use the money as non transferable vouchers to parents.

    Fee paying schools are one of the country's finest things, producing so many awesome people .
    Such as David Cameron and Boris Johnson.

    The men who did more than anyone else to create todays Conservative Party.
    For Brexit, don't blame the Estonians, blame the Etonions.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

    When I become the country's first directly elected dictator/imperator of the UK I'd abolish the department of education, use the money as non transferable vouchers to parents.

    Fee paying schools are one of the country's finest things, producing so many awesome people .
    Such as David Cameron and Boris Johnson
    One became PM, the other Foreign Secretary.
    It ain’t what you know, it’s who you know and what Daddy can pay for.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,007
    edited April 2019

    Y'all know what the term 'turning Japanese' means don't you?

    Turning one eighth IDS? Which presumably means he's a wanker³.
  • Nigelb said:


    If you doubled the education budget, it might almost make sense.
    Otherwise, utter bollocks.

    Am prepared to significantly increase the education budget

    Oh and I would remove university status from the shit ones.

    University attendance should be for the best, not the 50% target.

    I'd also make it fee free for those studying STEM, engineering, history, medicine, and the best degrees of all, law based ones.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    HYUFD said:

    I think the Tories will lose 1000 to 1200 seats on May 2 and tbh I think they'd take that atm.
    The euros are going to be brutal though. The interest for me is who wins from green, lib, chuk

    In the 2015 locals the Tories won 5,521 seats to 2,278 seats for Labour, so losing 1000 to 1200 seats would still see the Tories win more seats than Labour on May 2nd even if the Euros prove a bloodbath (though of course the Tories were 3rd in the 2014 Euros anyway).
    But 2015 & 2019 local elections are in "the Shires". If the tories were to win less council seats in 3 weeks than Labour then they really are toast.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Roger said:

    Anyone else bored now that Brexit is done?

    'Done' as in abandoned?
    Yepper
    They have one last chance, and that is referendum no. 2. The reverse ferreting when they realise this will be an awesome spectacle.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    Y'all know what the term 'turning Japanese' means don't you?

    I really think so.
  • Y'all know what the term 'turning Japanese' means don't you?

    Turning one eighth IDS? Which presumably means he's a wanker³.
    Well IDS is one of the people I'm accusing of turning Japanese in the morning thread.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,802

    I'm a socialist and a monarchist. And I don't see a contradiction

    The monarchy is the least offensive aspect of the English class system.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think the Tories will lose 1000 to 1200 seats on May 2 and tbh I think they'd take that atm.
    The euros are going to be brutal though. The interest for me is who wins from green, lib, chuk

    In the 2015 locals the Tories won 5,521 seats to 2,278 seats for Labour, so losing 1000 to 1200 seats would still see the Tories win more seats than Labour on May 2nd even if the Euros prove a bloodbath (though of course the Tories were 3rd in the 2014 Euros anyway).


    It would also still be better than the Tories did in the 1995 locals when they lost 2,018 seats overnight
    It wont be as bad as 95 for sure, labour dont have the support Blair did, but ironically the euros will be much worse than 94 with Major vs Beckett
    If Yougov is to be believed (and I expect Opinium's numbers would be similar) 21% of 2017 Conservatives have shifted rightwards, compared to 3% supporting Labour (offset by 4% of Labour voters moving rightwards). So, while Labour will benefit from Conservatives abstaining, they aren't gaining many switchers.
    My recollection is that 1997 wasn't mainly about Tories switching to Labour, but about Tories staying at home.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,135
    Scott_P said:
    The "two surviving former 1922 chairmen"? Much as I would like MPs to go thru the Hunger Games (go on: you'd love it), I can't help thinking that's a bit harsh... :)
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    viewcode said:

    eristdoof said:

    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    Any Prince Charles fans here?

    Well, yes. But it has to be said this acts oddly in favour of the Charles-is-actually-the-father-of-Harry theory, since the face-swapped version seems the same.
    Sorry? Was there ever a suggestion that Harry wasn't the son of Prince Charles?
    Never. It was never rumoured that the redhaired Prince Harry was the child of anybody else other than the dark-haired Prince Charles. And definitely not because his blonde mother Princess Diana had an affair with the redhaired James Hewitt. And they've taken gene tests so that's alright then.
    But Harry looks like Charles! Of all the questionable paterninty rumours, that one is just laughable.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,687
    edited April 2019
    I expect Dame Margaret Hodge to be condemned by the cult (sic).
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Nigelb said:


    If you doubled the education budget, it might almost make sense.
    Otherwise, utter bollocks.

    Am prepared to significantly increase the education budget

    Oh and I would remove university status from the shit ones.

    University attendance should be for the best, not the 50% target.

    I'd also make it fee free for those studying STEM, engineering, history, medicine, and the best degrees of all, law based ones.
    Law, history and PPE especially come with punitive fines. Oxford and Cambridge to pay reparations.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    edited April 2019

    eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

    When I become the country's first directly elected dictator/imperator of the UK I'd abolish the department of education, use the money as non transferable vouchers to parents.

    Fee paying schools are one of the country's finest things, producing so many awesome people .
    Such as David Cameron and Boris Johnson
    One became PM, the other Foreign Secretary.
    And many would say that Cameron was the worst PM and Boris the worst Foreign Secretary in modern British history.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Telegraph have an interesting take on the extension. They are reporting that the socialists round the table, Spain, Greece, etc wanted the UK to hold EU elections because Labour would do well and they are part of the socialist grouping in the EU. Whereas no UK political party is part of the EPP the main competition to the socialists. Did Corbyn not attend a big socialist summit in Spain not so long ago.

    Brexit Party looks very professional I must admit. Great clear name, distinctive colour and slogan\branding. Think Farage, who will of course be invited everywhere by the media, will do very well in the EU elections, probably first, can't see Labour holding up in EU elections at all. Why vote for them or the tories? It's going to be a proxy referendum.

    Change UK have been no help to themselves so far. Tried to find their website earlier and couldn't, seems they are still using the Independent Group. What's their colours, logo, slogan, platform? Seems like it's been confirmed as well that each party will stand separately as well (according to guardian).

    CUK is an utter shambles. Still at least it will give centrists something to blame other than their politics when they disappear
    It's a paradox that while Farage Mark 2 generates a media bandwagon, Change UK with 11 MP's get little coverage.
    Paradox resolved: Change UK have no real communicable agenda apart from keeping things the same by Remaining. This may be important but flies in the face of its hopelessly unoriginal name. And while they have some very reasonable and decent members - Heidi Allen stands out - they don't have a single charismatic leader. An agenda of keeping things the same while calling yourself 'Change' makes good Matt cartoons ('What don't we want...When don't we want it' etc) but is of limited appeal to a personality driven media. And there isn't a route for them to win any seats and retain their careers, so they look like losers. Bingo.
    That is probably correct. They want to Change back to 2005.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,802

    eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

    When I become the country's first directly elected dictator/imperator of the UK I'd abolish the department of education, use the money as non transferable vouchers to parents.

    Fee paying schools are one of the country's finest things, producing so many awesome people .
    Such as David Cameron and Boris Johnson
    One became PM, the other Foreign Secretary.
    And both were shit at their jobs. Private schools are good for getting people into positions of power and influence, but less good at equipping them with the necessary skills to do a good job once they get there. It's the same reason that state school pupils do better at university. They are a private benefit to their pupils but impose a cost on society as a whole. I'm not sure they can be abolished in a free society, but let's not pretend they're anything but a racket.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,628
    eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

    I wonder if people became dismissive of teachers when they stopped being referred to as schoolmasters.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    Foxy said:


    I'm not a teacher, but I've a lot of relations who are. It's always seemed to me that whoever said we're all experts on education because we've all been to school hit the nail on the head. Trouble is, as a pupil, or the parents of pupils we look at it through a very narrow view. I worked in health and heard all sorts of strange opinions about GP's and other health professionals, which were largely the result of one or two experiences, or experiences of one or two professionals, and that really isn't representative.

    Just look at how far we have fallen compared to other countries. Our education system is a joke and yet our teaching profession still try to pretend it is fit for purpose. You don't have to be any kind of expert to see how that is an indictment of both our politicians and the teaching profession.
    Or perhaps our parenting abilities. When children start school wearing nappies, unable to hold a pencil or utensils, or dress themselves, it is a difficult start for child and also teachers.
    That is an extremely recent development as I understand it. It certainly doesn't account for 30 years of plummeting standards.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited April 2019
    Foxy said:

    eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

    When I become the country's first directly elected dictator/imperator of the UK I'd abolish the department of education, use the money as non transferable vouchers to parents.

    Fee paying schools are one of the country's finest things, producing so many awesome people .
    Such as David Cameron and Boris Johnson.

    The men who did more than anyone else to create todays Conservative Party.
    For Brexit, don't blame the Estonians, blame the Etonions.
    I don't know if you intended it, but "Etonions" is fabulous.
  • eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:


    The teaching profession are arseholes. They've spent the last 40 to 50 years attempting to use their position to create a socialist utopia by trying to brainwash people who are too naive to understand what they're up to. And they're utterly shameless about it, because they think they're RIGHT and KNOW BEST. Shame on them.

    Whoa this is some crazy shit. Any evidence for this accusation? I don't personally recall any Marxist indoctrination at school and haven't yet noticed any at my kids' schools - just a whole lot of hard work for not a whole lot of money. Also, if teachers have been hellbent on creating this socialist utopia all these years, I can only say they have not been very successful.
    One thing that I have never understood about England, is how many normally rational people are so dismissive of schools and teachers. In the US the tiniest state support of the health service is rabidly attacked by moderates as communist, but has mostly state schools, and there is no suggestion of privatising the school system. In Germany teachers are highly respected, and a good education of the next generation is considered essential for the country.

    The result of this mistrust in teachers in England, has led to the erosion of them being professionals in terms of applying their own judgement and experience in their teaching, and teachers having a rediculous workload during term time.

    When I become the country's first directly elected dictator/imperator of the UK I'd abolish the department of education, use the money as non transferable vouchers to parents.

    Fee paying schools are one of the country's finest things, producing so many awesome people .
    Such as David Cameron and Boris Johnson
    One became PM, the other Foreign Secretary.
    And many would say they are the most disastrous occupants of these offices in modern British history.
    What about the PM and Foreign Secretary that lied about Iraqi WMD which resulted in a war that killed 100,000s of Iraqis and many British military casualties and fatalities?
This discussion has been closed.