Normally a fan of @cyclefree articles but I'm not really seeing this one tbh. Both are disrupters who reject the status quo but that does not make them alike. They are both bad in their own ways and have their own collections of prejudices, biases and idiocies which don't overlap.
Of course, there are huge differences and I do not think they are alike in their world view. But that is to say the obvious.
It has struck me for a while that there are some troubling similarities in the way they do politics, particularly in their attitude to a free press and to being held up to scrutiny. That bodes very ill in my view.
Maybe, but if you overlook the differences and only highlight the similarities, you can make the case that most politician pairings are similar
JC wants Customs Union, Single Market, No FOM, environmental and workers protection, confirmation vote - Correct?
We can ignore environmental and workers protections as they can be given and then taken away. They have nothing to do with the negotiations really; just a smoke screen - Correct?
We can't have Single market and FOM; EU won't allow it - Correct?
JC seems to get amnesia over the confirmation vote and could say he had to negotiate it away but Tom Watson yesterday said that was a red line for the key players in the shadow cabinet.
A Customs Union and No FOM I think nearly everyone agrees (leavers and remainers) is worse than we have now. It only satisfies those for whom FOM is the key item.
If it goes to a confirmation vote how will things split? Strong leavers against, except possibly those for whom it is all about FOM. But the result for them is either awful or awful so I can't see them motivated! Remainers choice between two similar things one of which is clearly worse than the other, but can they then be motivated for this difference and who will they be campaigning against?
OK I'm sure there is a lot wrong there. What is it?
Labour will not support any agreement that doesn’t involve a second referendum. The government will not allow a second referendum.
Yes, the talks are all about allocating blame. There is no common ground.
And they will drag on and on. The EU will accept that the talks represent the kind of political development they want to see in return for a long extension. This will remove much of the pressure for a quick agreement and Labour will play for time hoping that the the Tories will force May's immediate departure and the process of electing a new Tory leader will cause the Party to fall apart and result in a GE. Which is quite possible.
The UK could remain in a transitional position for years with A50 continually extended. A satisfactory withdrawal deal is very unlikely but unless there is a second referendum or an election in which the winner has specifically pledged to revoke A50 a final leave/remain decision will not be taken. Norway is technically in a transitional position and has been there since the 1990s.
O/T - I’m getting increasingly concerned by growing violent Leaver rhetoric over on Twitter, which seems to particularly come from the No Surrender wing.
Glad you’ve finally noticed but this has been a problem that has been years in the making. When I pointed it out a while back, the reaction of most Leavers was “not my problem guv”:
Pretty sure most Leavers will still be saying its nothing to do with them.
'It's those nasty, bad Leavers who are completely unconnected to our pure and idealistic project. Let's just concentrate on cutting immigration, ending FOM and ensuring a Marxist antisemite doesn't become PM.'
But emphatically there *is* treachery and there is betrayal. There is absolutely no other way to describe a Parliament that deliberately blocks the result of a referendum because it didn’t like the result. I’m not talking about hard or soft Brexit, but no Brexit at all. It won’t take much to turn this actual betrayal and actual treachery into a narrative that will have far reaching consequences.
I have been supporting May's Shit Deal ever since it was clear there was no appetite in the HoC to try for any meaningful renegotation of it. The hard-line Brexiteers might well have been idiots. As I have said from time to time. Bank what you have, take more later. But the 17.4m have not been systematically frustrated at every turn by them. They have at least been trying to find a way to implement the will of the 17.4m, in their own misguided ways. Not so the majority of MPs.
For about 18 months you were breezily assuring us that there would be a last minute fudge by the EU.
O/T - I’m getting increasingly concerned by growing violent Leaver rhetoric over on Twitter, which seems to particularly come from the No Surrender wing.
Glad you’ve finally noticed but this has been a problem that has been years in the making. When I pointed it out a while back, the reaction of most Leavers was “not my problem guv”:
Pretty sure most Leavers will still be saying its nothing to do with them.
'It's those nasty, bad Leavers who are completely unconnected to our pure and idealistic project. Let's just concentrate on cutting immigration, ending FOM and ensuring a Marxist antisemite doesn't become PM.'
But emphatically there *is* treachery and there is betrayal. There is absolutely no other way to describe a Parliament that deliberately blocks the result of a referendum because it didn’t like the result. I’m not talking about hard or soft Brexit, but no Brexit at all. It won’t take much to turn this actual betrayal and actual treachery into a narrative that will have far reaching consequences.
Spot on. It has started amongst people I know who feel they have been robbed. It is visceral for some of them.
Normally a fan of @cyclefree articles but I'm not really seeing this one tbh. Both are disrupters who reject the status quo but that does not make them alike. They are both bad in their own ways and have their own collections of prejudices, biases and idiocies which don't overlap.
Here’s the thing: whilst Trump is a cheat and liar in almost every area of his life, he seems to be faithfully (and tenaciously) attempting to carry out the entirety of the manifesto he was elected on.
That’s not what I expected at all, as I assumed much of it was hot air.
That should be taken into account when trying to understand the passion of his base.
I have a small bet on him being re-elected. I expect to win it although I would be happy enough to lose it. He is a vile collection of bigotries, lies and distortions who makes very good use of the opportunities given by social media to distort.
To go back to @cyclefree's theme what they do have in common is that our news media have not been able to dent them. Pointing out the lies, the fantasies, the failures, the bigotry, none of it seems to work. The more I think about that the more I think that the real problem is that our complete distrust of and willingness to disregard the self appointed "truth tellers" means no one is holding them to account. No one is holding the ring anymore.
I think it’s simpler than that: people hear what they want to hear and in the age of social media they now do not need to hear anything else. Trump and Corbyn (and many others now) understand that instinctively because it’s how they’ve lived their entire lives.
Someone needs to do some research as to the adverse effects twatter has had on contemporary politics.
The echo chamber of adoring followers The instant react and comment without thought mentality The necessity of reducing complex issues to a few sentences The encouragement to be ever more extreme to be noticed
I have to say I am very impressed with Yvette Cooper and compare and contrast her responsible attitude with Mark Francois furious response to the ERG defeat quoting Jesus saying
'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do'
I had no idea that my party contained so many unpleasant mps
I made the same point downthread Big_G. A Labour party led by Cooper would probably be in power by now, let alone out of sight in the polling.
I am not so sure, she is capable but in the electorate's current mood for populism Cooper might get squeezed
She has no hope, her last attempt was pathetic and when a cabinet minister she was totally useless.
O/T - I’m getting increasingly concerned by growing violent Leaver rhetoric over on Twitter, which seems to particularly come from the No Surrender wing.
Glad you’ve finally noticed but this has been a problem that has been years in the making. When I pointed it out a while back, the reaction of most Leavers was “not my problem guv”:
Pretty sure most Leavers will still be saying its nothing to do with them.
'It's those nasty, bad Leavers who are completely unconnected to our pure and idealistic project. Let's just concentrate on cutting immigration, ending FOM and ensuring a Marxist antisemite doesn't become PM.'
But emphatically there *is* treachery and there is betrayal. There is absolutely no other way to describe a Parliament that deliberately blocks the result of a referendum because it didn’t like the result. I’m not talking about hard or soft Brexit, but no Brexit at all. It won’t take much to turn this actual betrayal and actual treachery into a narrative that will have far reaching consequences.
Brexit has been blocked by a cohort of nominal Leavers deciding that the form of Brexit on offer did not meet their exacting standards.
Alternative courses of actions are now being considered. If Leavers look clueless (they do), they can't complain if others decide on more feasible courses of action that are still less to their liking.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
Excellent article and very good comments as well from intelligent people , if only we had media like that in this country instead of the dross and the comments by cretinous morons.
Very entertaining and spot on. As he says 'you can't fix stupid'.
Although Friedman, while complaining about lies, does repeat the rubbish about London being "one of the biggest French cities in the world". A claim famously made by Boris Johnson (who is really much closer to the British version of Trump than Corbyn), among others. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26823489 if anyone's interested
Normally a fan of @cyclefree articles but I'm not really seeing this one tbh. Both are disrupters who reject the status quo but that does not make them alike. They are both bad in their own ways and have their own collections of prejudices, biases and idiocies which don't overlap.
It's always possible to draw parallels between any two people, but apart from the "change for the mainstream" theme, I think the differences are more obvious. Trump's modus operandi is to attack opponents personally with smeary nicknames. Corbyn's modus operandi is to drone on about his policy agenda and ignore even valid opportunities to attack opponents personally. Faced with something uncomfortable, Trump's instinct is to lie about it. Corbyn's is to try to justify it. (Most politicians opt for a third option - to evade it.)
I made exactly that point in the header (about Trump being personally nasty unlike Corbyn). But your penultimate sentence is plain wrong: when faced with something uncomfortable Corbyn also lies - often quite fluently and easily. See, for instance, his lies to Jon Snow about stopping work for Press TV or his lies about the Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony or his lies about meeting people on all sides of the divide. And he is also pretty good at being evasive. He does it in a quiet way and it is usually a small lie which takes some digging to work out it is a lie, unlike Trump’s big obvious lies. But he is a liar nonetheless.
I have been supporting May's Shit Deal ever since it was clear there was no appetite in the HoC to try for any meaningful renegotation of it. The hard-line Brexiteers might well have been idiots. As I have said from time to time. Bank what you have, take more later. But the 17.4m have not been systematically frustrated at every turn by them. They have at least been trying to find a way to implement the will of the 17.4m, in their own misguided ways. Not so the majority of MPs.
For about 18 months you were breezily assuring us that there would be a last minute fudge by the EU.
but the EU can see remaining in their sights so they will not budge , because they can continue to drain treasure island for decades to come
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
Normally a fan of @cyclefree articles but I'm not really seeing this one tbh. Both are disrupters who reject the status quo but that does not make them alike. They are both bad in their own ways and have their own collections of prejudices, biases and idiocies which don't overlap.
Here’s the thing: whilst Trump is a cheat and liar in almost every area of his life, he seems to be faithfully (and tenaciously) attempting to carry out the entirety of the manifesto he was elected on.
That’s not what I expected at all, as I assumed much of it was hot air.
That should be taken into account when trying to understand the passion of his base.
I have a small bet on him being re-elected. I expect to win it although I would be happy enough to lose it. He is a vile collection of bigotries, lies and distortions who makes very good use of the opportunities given by social media to distort.
To go back to @cyclefree's theme what they do have in common is that our news media have not been able to dent them. Pointing out the lies, the fantasies, the failures, the bigotry, none of it seems to work. The more I think about that the more I think that the real problem is that our complete distrust of and willingness to disregard the self appointed "truth tellers" means no one is holding them to account. No one is holding the ring anymore.
I think it’s simpler than that: people hear what they want to hear and in the age of social media they now do not need to hear anything else. Trump and Corbyn (and many others now) understand that instinctively because it’s how they’ve lived their entire lives.
Someone needs to do some research as to the adverse effects twatter has had on contemporary politics.
The echo chamber of adoring followers The instant react and comment without thought mentality The necessity of reducing complex issues to a few sentences The encouragement to be ever more extreme to be noticed
O/T - I’m getting increasingly concerned by growing violent Leaver rhetoric over on Twitter, which seems to particularly come from the No Surrender wing.
That’s a concern. A mob is rarely more dangerous than when it has a chip on its shoulder.
Try a mob of 17.4m with righteous anger on its side....
This rhetoric needs dialling down
So 17.4m people are being told by 650 "Yeah, we're debasing your democracy. Now STFU about it."
You need to question what needs dialling down.
You are not helping your cause and there are much much less than 17.4 million who are in the hard brexit camp
Last time I looked @MarqueeMark was not in the Hard Brexit camp.
Actually he is.
May's Deal is pretty hard Brexit - I'd say about 80% on the Hard-Soft axis and MM would prefer something Harder.
What you're referring to as Hard Brexit I assume is No Deal Brexit.
The terminology has shifted since 2016.
If we're going down this route, we should probably differentiate between "Supporters" of May's deal, and those who think, considering where we are now that May's Deal should be passed by parliament "Tolerators".
I reckon many Tory MPs are Tolerators, and outside of the Pay-Roll there are very few Supporters.
Normally a fan of @cyclefree articles but I'm not really seeing this one tbh. Both are disrupters who reject the status quo but that does not make them alike. They are both bad in their own ways and have their own collections of prejudices, biases and idiocies which don't overlap.
It's always possible to draw parallels between any two people, but apart from the "change for the mainstream" theme, I think the differences are more obvious. Trump's modus operandi is to attack opponents personally with smeary nicknames. Corbyn's modus operandi is to drone on about his policy agenda and ignore even valid opportunities to attack opponents personally. Faced with something uncomfortable, Trump's instinct is to lie about it. Corbyn's is to try to justify it. (Most politicians opt for a third option - to evade it.)
"Corbyn's modus operandi is to drone on about his policy agenda and ignore even valid opportunities to attack opponents personally."
Well, you would say that. It's easy to put it differently: Corbyn sits back as those around him, and whom he could reign in, attack opponents *very* personally. He's not stupid, and he knows what happens.
An example is the anti-Semitism your party has descended into. It would have been easy for him to staunch this two years ago and to stop his underlings and followers. But he chose not to.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I think you over estimate people’s engagement. Brexit is Brexit, hard or soft to most people it means very little. If it is done it is done.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I think you over estimate people’s engagement. Brexit is Brexit, hard or soft to most people it means very little. If it is done it is done.
O/T - I’m getting increasingly concerned by growing violent Leaver rhetoric over on Twitter, which seems to particularly come from the No Surrender wing.
That’s a concern. A mob is rarely more dangerous than when it has a chip on its shoulder.
Try a mob of 17.4m with righteous anger on its side....
This rhetoric needs dialling down
So 17.4m people are being told by 650 "Yeah, we're debasing your democracy. Now STFU about it."
You need to question what needs dialling down.
You are not helping your cause and there are much much less than 17.4 million who are in the hard brexit camp
Last time I looked @MarqueeMark was not in the Hard Brexit camp.
Actually he is.
May's Deal is pretty hard Brexit - I'd say about 80% on the Hard-Soft axis and MM would prefer something Harder.
What you're referring to as Hard Brexit I assume is No Deal Brexit.
The terminology has shifted since 2016.
If we're going down this route, we should probably differentiate between "Supporters" of May's deal, and those who think, considering where we are now that May's Deal should be passed by parliament "Tolerators".
I reckon many Tory MPs are Tolerators, and outside of the Pay-Roll there are very few Supporters.
But what do these MPs want ?
If for example an independent trade policy is their big issue then why have they not been demanding the replacement of Liam Fox.
Mr. Divvie, there's something special about a segment bleating about 'provincial' England (Yorkshire isn't a province...) then giving a footnote to Wales at the end.
Also, every Briton's vote counted equally. The notion that Englishmen in towns and small cities are some sort of wretched inferior sort, lacking the nobility of Celts (*cough*excepttheWelsh*cough*) or the sophistication of more urbane Englishmen dwelling in cities, is a foolish perspective.
It's also daft to try and use insults to persuade people. It didn't work with baskets of deplorables and it didn't work with Little Englanders (and I pointed out at the time it was a stupid term for Cameron to use, even as others tittered about it).
O/T - I’m getting increasingly concerned by growing violent Leaver rhetoric over on Twitter, which seems to particularly come from the No Surrender wing.
That’s a concern. A mob is rarely more dangerous than when it has a chip on its shoulder.
Try a mob of 17.4m with righteous anger on its side....
This rhetoric needs dialling down
So 17.4m people are being told by 650 "Yeah, we're debasing your democracy. Now STFU about it."
You need to question what needs dialling down.
You are not helping your cause and there are much much less than 17.4 million who are in the hard brexit camp
Last time I looked @MarqueeMark was not in the Hard Brexit camp.
Actually he is.
May's Deal is pretty hard Brexit - I'd say about 80% on the Hard-Soft axis and MM would prefer something Harder.
What you're referring to as Hard Brexit I assume is No Deal Brexit.
The terminology has shifted since 2016.
If we're going down this route, we should probably differentiate between "Supporters" of May's deal, and those who think, considering where we are now that May's Deal should be passed by parliament "Tolerators".
I reckon many Tory MPs are Tolerators, and outside of the Pay-Roll there are very few Supporters.
The most recent Yougov poll probably sums up public opinion quite well.
No Deal is more popular than May's Deal, but more people will tolerate May's Deal than No Deal.
Mr. Richard, Twitter can also be surprisingly civilised. I had an entirely pleasant disagreement with a stranger over historical migration to the British Isles, and my history list tends to be delightful and interesting.
There's a lot of bitterness and idiocy too, though.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I think you over estimate people’s engagement. Brexit is Brexit, hard or soft to most people it means very little. If it is done it is done.
Yes.
The chasm between Remaining vs Leaving via the softest possible Brexit is huuuuuuuge.
People aren’t stupid, they know politicians don’t want to implement leave and so it’s going to be a politicians brexit. But to not leave at all would be very provocative.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
Jeremy Corbyn is a lifelong conviction socialist politician. He has not changed his mind on any political principle of importance since he was 17. On a personal level he has his flaws but is fundamentally a decent enough person. He is not possessed of a truly bad character.
Donald Trump has no principles at all. He is about nothing but self-aggrandizement. He would have masqueraded as a liberal if he thought there were more votes in that. He is driven purely by personal vanity and a hatred of Barack Obama. He is petty, mean spirited, small minded, and he panders to the worst in human nature. He is, in summary, an utterly repulsive creature with no redeeming features whatsoever.
The British Trump? Thankfully there isn't one and let us hope it stays that way.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I think you over estimate people’s engagement. Brexit is Brexit, hard or soft to most people it means very little. If it is done it is done.
My impression is that many who now complain that they are fed up with Brexit and just want it done with are the same people who gave little thought to the vote at the time, or, if they did, believed that leaving the EU would be little more difficult than flicking off a switch.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
Normally a fan of @cyclefree articles but I'm not really seeing this one tbh. Both are disrupters who reject the status quo but that does not make them alike. They are both bad in their own ways and have their own collections of prejudices, biases and idiocies which don't overlap.
Of course, there are huge differences and I do not think they are alike in their world view. But that is to say the obvious.
It has struck me for a while that there are some troubling similarities in the way they do politics, particularly in their attitude to a free press and to being held up to scrutiny. That bodes very ill in my view.
Maybe, but if you overlook the differences and only highlight the similarities, you can make the case that most politician pairings are similar
If you look at underlying similarities between obviously different politicians it helps explore developments which can often be overlooked if you just look at everything through the same left-right perspective. For instance, both men do not believe in a free independent press and have sought, as far as possible, to evade scrutiny and to attack those who do scrutinise. That is a worrying similarity and development.
The fact that both are essentially nostalgics in their solutions is also important. We haven’t even begun over here to develop politicians thinking about solutions for the future rather than about returning to the certainties of the past. Corbyn is certainly not that man. So who will be?
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
Another referendum means a long delay. Leave will win by a bigger margin but another year will have been wasted.
The ERG amongst many are whipping up a betrayal narrative , using dangerous rhetoric . They have decided to view Mays deal as not proper Brexit . They have spent 4 months trashing it and now only a complete rupture with the EU will satisfy them.
They frame no deal now as what 17 million people wanted when it’s clear that was not the case in 2016 . The chaos and current impasse is down to them and not Remainers.
The ERG amongst many are whipping up a betrayal narrative , using dangerous rhetoric . They have decided to view Mays deal as not proper Brexit . They have spent 4 months trashing it and now only a complete rupture with the EU will satisfy them.
They frame no deal now as what 17 million people wanted when it’s clear that was not the case in 2016 . The chaos and current impasse is down to them and not Remainers.
I think the ERG have jumped into every trap laid for them by their opponents. They are fanatical and many of them would rather have no Brexit than their ideal Brexit.
On the other side are those MP's (Yvette Cooper, Dominic Grieve, etc.) who promised to honour the result of the referendum, but with their fingers crossed behind their backs.
Honouring the referendum is a very broad church, and is open to interpretation due to its simplistic nature. however, I would have preferred those who shared my view would have said "I accept we lost the vote by a small margin. I continue to think that leaving the EU is a moral judgement as well as a political one, and I continue to think it is wrong. I will do all I can to shift public opinion in that direction"
After all, if there were 52% of people in favour of say, capital punishment, or slavery would we say "Oh well, we have to accept the will-o-the-people, I will go away and shut up"?
I think that our whole relationship with the EU has been bedevilled for years by politicians saying one thing to a mainly eurosceptic electorate, while doing the opposite in Brussels.
Jeremy Corbyn is a lifelong conviction socialist politician. He has not changed his mind on any political principle of importance since he was 17. On a personal level he has his flaws but is fundamentally a decent enough person. He is not possessed of a truly bad character.
Donald Trump has no principles at all. He is about nothing but self-aggrandizement. He would have masqueraded as a liberal if he thought there were more votes in that. He is driven purely by personal vanity and a hatred of Barack Obama. He is petty, mean spirited, small minded, and he panders to the worst in human nature. He is, in summary, an utterly repulsive creature with no redeeming features whatsoever.
The British Trump? Thankfully there isn't one and let us hope it stays that way.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
We already won, three years ago. And nothing has been done. Why wait longer with the added risk of losing what we have?
Mr. Divvie, there's something special about a segment bleating about 'provincial' England (Yorkshire isn't a province...) then giving a footnote to Wales at the end.
Also, every Briton's vote counted equally. The notion that Englishmen in towns and small cities are some sort of wretched inferior sort, lacking the nobility of Celts (*cough*excepttheWelsh*cough*) or the sophistication of more urbane Englishmen dwelling in cities, is a foolish perspective.
It's also daft to try and use insults to persuade people. It didn't work with baskets of deplorables and it didn't work with Little Englanders (and I pointed out at the time it was a stupid term for Cameron to use, even as others tittered about it).
I presume on that basis you can call the French Frogs because you don't have to persuade them of anything (apart from agreeing to an extension to enact your shitshow of a Brexit of course).
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
Another referendum means a long delay. Leave will win by a bigger margin but another year will have been wasted.
And the political class will have been smacked around the head - again. But are you seeing any signs they will pay heed?
On a more lighthearted note, I wonder whether the word Brexit will morph into a different meaning in a hundred years time. "Oh you made a right Brexit of that" ..and perhaps for someone that is outmanoeuvred through their stupidity : "and the striker made the defender look a complete reesmogg"
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The mere fact that one is being proposed is the best reason to not want one.
Jeremy Corbyn is a lifelong conviction socialist politician. He has not changed his mind on any political principle of importance since he was 17. On a personal level he has his flaws but is fundamentally a decent enough person. He is not possessed of a truly bad character.
Donald Trump has no principles at all. He is about nothing but self-aggrandizement. He would have masqueraded as a liberal if he thought there were more votes in that. He is driven purely by personal vanity and a hatred of Barack Obama. He is petty, mean spirited, small minded, and he panders to the worst in human nature. He is, in summary, an utterly repulsive creature with no redeeming features whatsoever.
The British Trump? Thankfully there isn't one and let us hope it stays that way.
True enough - as far as it goes (though I would question whether someone who hangs around with a succession of Holocaust deniers is really truly fundamentally decent). But in that case why is it that so very different people approach politics in such similar ways when put in positions of power?
Boeing are really going to be in the sh*t - and deserve to be.
(For those not following this closely, after the first crash, Boeing released instructions to pilots about how to recover from the situation those first pilots found themselves in. Sadly, it looks as though those instructions were not comprehensive enough to allow the pilots from the second flight to recover. If everything is as suspected ...)
Oddly there's a story in America that Boeing was working on a software update already to improve the MCAS and fix the issues from the original crash but all work getting FAA approval for it got halted due to the government shutdown. Could the second crash have been a bizarre consequence of the shutdown?
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The committed (on both sides) have already made their minds up. The type of voter you describe is unpersuadable.
A fresh referendum would be fought over "which part of Leave didn't you understand?" and "haven't they made a right Horlicks of it? / do you really think that the idea of Brexit has made Britain a better place?" I expect it would be quite tight.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
We already won, three years ago. And nothing has been done. Why wait longer with the added risk of losing what we have?
We have already lost what we had. It is called International credibility, and the reason is a pointless obsession with delivering a marginal vote on a simplistic question, in a manner that has attempted to completely ignores the concerns of 48% of the population, without a mechanism to see that such a view is still maintained, now that a dose of reality has been applied.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
We already won, three years ago. And nothing has been done. Why wait longer with the added risk of losing what we have?
What have you got? May's deal that Parliament won't vote for, a unicorn No Deal option Parliament doesn't want and ???
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
There's also the indisputable fear that (say) a 51-49 remain result would be insanely damaging to politics, public order and harmony, just about everything and would immediately lead into calls for a third go. It would rip a badly torn country in half
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The committed (on both sides) have already made their minds up. The type of voter you describe is unpersuadable.
A fresh referendum would be fought over "which part of Leave didn't you understand?" and "haven't they made a right Horlicks of it? / do you really think that the idea of Brexit has made Britain a better place?" I expect it would be quite tight.
The proposal for another referendum is the best evidence that people who want to leave shouldn’t want one
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
Come off it. Everyone knew before the referendum that it would take 2 years to agree the divorce. That has been agreed and yet is not acceptable to a large number of MPs, many of them ostensibly for Leave.
I see no reason why people should not be asked now that you know the terms of the divorce, do you still want to go ahead. Particularly if it helps unblock the Parliamentary logjam.
Boeing are really going to be in the sh*t - and deserve to be.
(For those not following this closely, after the first crash, Boeing released instructions to pilots about how to recover from the situation those first pilots found themselves in. Sadly, it looks as though those instructions were not comprehensive enough to allow the pilots from the second flight to recover. If everything is as suspected ...)
Oddly there's a story in America that Boeing was working on a software update already to improve the MCAS and fix the issues from the original crash but all work getting FAA approval for it got halted due to the government shutdown. Could the second crash have been a bizarre consequence of the shutdown?
That's been talked about for some time. I am unpersuaded by it - especially as Boeing have announced a delay to the fix due, perhaps, by the fact it didn't actually fix the issue seen in the second crash.
I am not a fan of Trump, but the shutdown really didn't have much to do with any of this.
Boeing are really going to be in the sh*t - and deserve to be.
(For those not following this closely, after the first crash, Boeing released instructions to pilots about how to recover from the situation those first pilots found themselves in. Sadly, it looks as though those instructions were not comprehensive enough to allow the pilots from the second flight to recover. If everything is as suspected ...)
Oddly there's a story in America that Boeing was working on a software update already to improve the MCAS and fix the issues from the original crash but all work getting FAA approval for it got halted due to the government shutdown. Could the second crash have been a bizarre consequence of the shutdown?
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The mere fact that one is being proposed is the best reason to not want one.
It shouldn't be about winning or losing, but about delivering the best result for the country. A decision was taken three years ago that is turning into a disaster and increasingly looking like a mistake. Now we have more details it is only reasonable to ask people whether they wish to proceed with it.
On a more lighthearted note, I wonder whether the word Brexit will morph into a different meaning in a hundred years time. "Oh you made a right Brexit of that" ..and perhaps for someone that is outmanoeuvred through their stupidity : "and the striker made the defender look a complete reesmogg"
“How was the match?” “It was a bigger wind up than brexit.”
“Please stop exporting all our food to your own pirate island sir, our harvests have failed and we are in a state of famine” “Stop wasting your breath fool, you’ve more chance getting a potato off a Mogg.”
Look, if Labour MPs want a second ref then they should install Philip Hammond as their leader or shut up.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
If you've won once, why give your opponents a second chance?
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The committed (on both sides) have already made their minds up. The type of voter you describe is unpersuadable.
A fresh referendum would be fought over "which part of Leave didn't you understand?" and "haven't they made a right Horlicks of it? / do you really think that the idea of Brexit has made Britain a better place?" I expect it would be quite tight.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
The view of many Leavers is summed up by Isam on a recent post : "We won". Basically everyone else can go and screw themselves, we want to enjoy our pyrrhic victory, whatever the consequences. Not the best way to run a so-called democracy
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
There's also the indisputable fear that (say) a 51-49 remain result would be insanely damaging to politics, public order and harmony, just about everything and would immediately lead into calls for a third go. It would rip a badly torn country in half
Agree. But we are into choosing the least worst options.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The mere fact that one is being proposed is the best reason to not want one.
It shouldn't be about winning or losing, but about delivering the best result for the country. A decision was taken three years ago that is turning into a disaster and increasingly looking like a mistake. Now we have more details it is only reasonable to ask people whether they wish to proceed with it.
It's not the decision that was a disaster - it's the implementation.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
We already won, three years ago. And nothing has been done. Why wait longer with the added risk of losing what we have?
What have you got? May's deal that Parliament won't vote for, a unicorn No Deal option Parliament doesn't want and ???
Parliament should not have been asked. That is the entire reason for this mess
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
The view of many Leavers is summed up by Isam on a recent post : "We won". Basically everyone else can go and screw themselves, we want to enjoy our pyrrhic victory, whatever the consequences. Not the best way to run a so-called democracy
I know it’s an old fashioned thing, but in competitions there are winners and losers. There is nothing wrong in the winners wanting their reward
I’ve never said any such thing about the losers, but the best way to run a so called democracy is to act on the results of democratic elections, not ignore them
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
Come off it. Everyone knew before the referendum that it would take 2 years to agree the divorce. That has been agreed and yet is not acceptable to a large number of MPs, many of them ostensibly for Leave.
I see no reason why people should not be asked now that you know the terms of the divorce, do you still want to go ahead. Particularly if it helps unblock the Parliamentary logjam.
What's the point of saying "yes, we now REALLY want a divorce - or else I'm going to end up hitting him with an iron...." if we have to use the same lawyers that buggered up the first decree nisi?
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
There's also the indisputable fear that (say) a 51-49 remain result would be insanely damaging to politics, public order and harmony, just about everything and would immediately lead into calls for a third go. It would rip a badly torn country in half
Agree. But we are into choosing the least worst options.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The mere fact that one is being proposed is the best reason to not want one.
It shouldn't be about winning or losing, but about delivering the best result for the country. A decision was taken three years ago that is turning into a disaster and increasingly looking like a mistake. Now we have more details it is only reasonable to ask people whether they wish to proceed with it.
But the best result for the country given that May's Deal is not an option is what exactly? It's definitely not May's deal.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
There's also the indisputable fear that (say) a 51-49 remain result would be insanely damaging to politics, public order and harmony, just about everything and would immediately lead into calls for a third go. It would rip a badly torn country in half
Agree. But we are into choosing the least worst options.
Which is, unfortunately, entirely subjective
Not entirely, but worryingly so. I for one am annoyed about subjectivity still in play wrt thing like no deal Brexit. We should now, with some clarity, be able to predict what would happen.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
We already won, three years ago. And nothing has been done. Why wait longer with the added risk of losing what we have?
What have you got? May's deal that Parliament won't vote for, a unicorn No Deal option Parliament doesn't want and ???
Parliament should not have been asked. That is the entire reason for this mess
No, it's the people who should not have been asked.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
If you've won once, why give your opponents a second chance?
What's in it for Leave?
To see if they can get support for a more extreme version of self-harm on their road to utopia, and the land of milk, honey and unicorns (British ones of course, not pesky foreign imported ones)
Were there to be anther referendum, and assuming Remain were one of the options, who would lead the campaign? AC Grayling? Al Campbell? Chuka? Phil Hammond? I can’t imagine Cameron and Osbourne coming out of retirement to save the day.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
If you've won once, why give your opponents a second chance?
What's in it for Leave?
To see if they can get support for a more extreme version of self-harm on their road to utopia, and the land of milk, honey and unicorns (British ones of course, not pesky foreign imported ones)
It is a little-known fact that British unicorns are the only breed that have their horns protruding firmly up their own backsides - which is why they're so beloved by our politicians ...
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
Come off it. Everyone knew before the referendum that it would take 2 years to agree the divorce. That has been agreed and yet is not acceptable to a large number of MPs, many of them ostensibly for Leave.
I see no reason why people should not be asked now that you know the terms of the divorce, do you still want to go ahead. Particularly if it helps unblock the Parliamentary logjam.
“Buy another car off me after I laughed as the one I sold you 3 years ago caused you no end of grief”
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
The view of many Leavers is summed up by Isam on a recent post : "We won". Basically everyone else can go and screw themselves, we want to enjoy our pyrrhic victory, whatever the consequences. Not the best way to run a so-called democracy
I know it’s an old fashioned thing, but in competitions there are winners and losers. There is nothing wrong in the winners wanting their reward
I’ve never said any such thing about the losers, but the best way to run a so called democracy is to act on the results of democratic elections, not ignore them
You cannot claim that the result of the election has been ignored: it has dominated politics for the last couple of years. That's hardly 'ignoring'.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
The view of many Leavers is summed up by Isam on a recent post : "We won". Basically everyone else can go and screw themselves, we want to enjoy our pyrrhic victory, whatever the consequences. Not the best way to run a so-called democracy
I know it’s an old fashioned thing, but in competitions there are winners and losers. There is nothing wrong in the winners wanting their reward
I’ve never said any such thing about the losers, but the best way to run a so called democracy is to act on the results of democratic elections, not ignore them
Suppose Leave won again, by 52/48. Does anyone believe that would be the end of the matter?
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The mere fact that one is being proposed is the best reason to not want one.
It shouldn't be about winning or losing, but about delivering the best result for the country. A decision was taken three years ago that is turning into a disaster and increasingly looking like a mistake. Now we have more details it is only reasonable to ask people whether they wish to proceed with it.
But the best result for the country given that May's Deal is not an option is what exactly? It's definitely not May's deal.
Best option is nailed on leaving 1st Jan 2020 with 8 months to prepare a series of mini deals to minimise any disruption. It isn't "no deal" as some areas could be agreed - probably in exchange for cash.
I have to say I am very impressed with Yvette Cooper and compare and contrast her responsible attitude with Mark Francois furious response to the ERG defeat quoting Jesus saying
'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do'
I had no idea that my party contained so many unpleasant mps
I made the same point downthread Big_G. A Labour party led by Cooper would probably be in power by now, let alone out of sight in the polling.
I am not so sure, she is capable but in the electorate's current mood for populism Cooper might get squeezed
She has no hope, her last attempt was pathetic and when a cabinet minister she was totally useless.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
There's also the indisputable fear that (say) a 51-49 remain result would be insanely damaging to politics, public order and harmony, just about everything and would immediately lead into calls for a third go. It would rip a badly torn country in half
Agree. But we are into choosing the least worst options.
Which is, unfortunately, entirely subjective
Not entirely, but worryingly so. I for one am annoyed about subjectivity still in play wrt thing like no deal Brexit. We should now, with some clarity, be able to predict what would happen.
Agreed. I meant more leave vs remain, referendum vs not, generic questions. I voted leave but I declare myself entirely happy with FOM in a common market 2.0, it was never about FOM for me. I'd just like it done now, the damage theh logjam is causing is starting to weigh down on the scale opposite the 'effects' of leaving
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
The view of many Leavers is summed up by Isam on a recent post : "We won". Basically everyone else can go and screw themselves, we want to enjoy our pyrrhic victory, whatever the consequences. Not the best way to run a so-called democracy
I know it’s an old fashioned thing, but in competitions there are winners and losers. There is nothing wrong in the winners wanting their reward
I’ve never said any such thing about the losers, but the best way to run a so called democracy is to act on the results of democratic elections, not ignore them
You cannot claim that the result of the election has been ignored: it has dominated politics for the last couple of years. That's hardly 'ignoring'.
The question is whether it's deliverable ...
It's not deliverable by the current PM.
Con MPs are to blame - they should have ditched her before Xmas - huge mistake not to.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The mere fact that one is being proposed is the best reason to not want one.
It shouldn't be about winning or losing, but about delivering the best result for the country. A decision was taken three years ago that is turning into a disaster and increasingly looking like a mistake. Now we have more details it is only reasonable to ask people whether they wish to proceed with it.
It's not the decision that was a disaster - it's the implementation.
A referendum on that would be a General Election.
A GE is not a referendum!
A GE is to elect a government. And in a referendum every vote is given the same weight, unlike in the FPTP parliamentary election.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
The view of many Leavers is summed up by Isam on a recent post : "We won". Basically everyone else can go and screw themselves, we want to enjoy our pyrrhic victory, whatever the consequences. Not the best way to run a so-called democracy
I know it’s an old fashioned thing, but in competitions there are winners and losers. There is nothing wrong in the winners wanting their reward
I’ve never said any such thing about the losers, but the best way to run a so called democracy is to act on the results of democratic elections, not ignore them
Suppose Leave won again, by 52/48. Does anyone believe that would be the end of the matter?
The same people who slaughter May for repeatedly trying to get her deal through would demand another go
Boeing are really going to be in the sh*t - and deserve to be.
(For those not following this closely, after the first crash, Boeing released instructions to pilots about how to recover from the situation those first pilots found themselves in. Sadly, it looks as though those instructions were not comprehensive enough to allow the pilots from the second flight to recover. If everything is as suspected ...)
Oddly there's a story in America that Boeing was working on a software update already to improve the MCAS and fix the issues from the original crash but all work getting FAA approval for it got halted due to the government shutdown. Could the second crash have been a bizarre consequence of the shutdown?
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
I'd rather MPs just revoked than put us through a second referendum. If they can't implement the first one that gave them an answer they didn't want don't ask me again. just do it.
I have to say I am very impressed with Yvette Cooper and compare and contrast her responsible attitude with Mark Francois furious response to the ERG defeat quoting Jesus saying
'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do'
I had no idea that my party contained so many unpleasant mps
I made the same point downthread Big_G. A Labour party led by Cooper would probably be in power by now, let alone out of sight in the polling.
I am not so sure, she is capable but in the electorate's current mood for populism Cooper might get squeezed
She has no hope, her last attempt was pathetic and when a cabinet minister she was totally useless.
Do you prefer Coffee or tea Yvette
Yvette - well they both have their merits
She also had a habit of cooing 'it's the right thing to do' parrotesquely whenever questioned Like a kid who's had it drummed into them
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
We already won, three years ago. And nothing has been done. Why wait longer with the added risk of losing what we have?
We have already lost what we had. It is called International credibility, and the reason is a pointless obsession with delivering a marginal vote on a simplistic question, in a manner that has attempted to completely ignores the concerns of 48% of the population, without a mechanism to see that such a view is still maintained, now that a dose of reality has been applied.
"international credibility" its called the democratic process, its pretty much how all democratic systems operate, except ours because FPTP usually brings along with it an Elected Dictatorship, Parliament isnt usually so powerful on a day to day basis.
Every other European nation has messy proportional systems that make this kind of thing not an oddity but a routine part of doing business. Even in other FPTP countries like the USA their separation of powers means their entire system of government is one long very loud and angry argument.
Comments
The UK could remain in a transitional position for years with A50 continually extended. A satisfactory withdrawal deal is very unlikely but unless there is a second referendum or an election in which the winner has specifically pledged to revoke A50 a final leave/remain decision will not be taken. Norway is technically in a transitional position and has been there since the 1990s.
https://twitter.com/GeneralBoles/status/1113698712457547779
https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1113704304404250624
The echo chamber of adoring followers
The instant react and comment without thought mentality
The necessity of reducing complex issues to a few sentences
The encouragement to be ever more extreme to be noticed
Alternative courses of actions are now being considered. If Leavers look clueless (they do), they can't complain if others decide on more feasible courses of action that are still less to their liking.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26823489 if anyone's interested
I reckon many Tory MPs are Tolerators, and outside of the Pay-Roll there are very few Supporters.
Want to reassure your voters you are in favour of Brexit ?
Announce that in the event of the Uk having to contest the EU elections, that no Con candidates will be fielded as there is no point - we are leaving.
If for example an independent trade policy is their big issue then why have they not been demanding the replacement of Liam Fox.
Also, every Briton's vote counted equally. The notion that Englishmen in towns and small cities are some sort of wretched inferior sort, lacking the nobility of Celts (*cough*excepttheWelsh*cough*) or the sophistication of more urbane Englishmen dwelling in cities, is a foolish perspective.
It's also daft to try and use insults to persuade people. It didn't work with baskets of deplorables and it didn't work with Little Englanders (and I pointed out at the time it was a stupid term for Cameron to use, even as others tittered about it).
No Deal is more popular than May's Deal, but more people will tolerate May's Deal than No Deal.
There's a lot of bitterness and idiocy too, though.
The chasm between Remaining vs Leaving via the softest possible Brexit is huuuuuuuge.
People aren’t stupid, they know politicians don’t want to implement leave and so it’s going to be a politicians brexit. But to not leave at all would be very provocative.
Jeremy Corbyn is a lifelong conviction socialist politician. He has not changed his mind on any political principle of importance since he was 17. On a personal level he has his flaws but is fundamentally a decent enough person. He is not possessed of a truly bad character.
Donald Trump has no principles at all. He is about nothing but self-aggrandizement. He would have masqueraded as a liberal if he thought there were more votes in that. He is driven purely by personal vanity and a hatred of Barack Obama. He is petty, mean spirited, small minded, and he panders to the worst in human nature. He is, in summary, an utterly repulsive creature with no redeeming features whatsoever.
The British Trump? Thankfully there isn't one and let us hope it stays that way.
https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1113722223775367168
The fact that both are essentially nostalgics in their solutions is also important. We haven’t even begun over here to develop politicians thinking about solutions for the future rather than about returning to the certainties of the past. Corbyn is certainly not that man. So who will be?
Next?
"Oh you made a right Brexit of that"
..and perhaps for someone that is outmanoeuvred through their stupidity : "and the striker made the defender look a complete reesmogg"
The mere fact that one is being proposed is the best reason to not want one.
Mr. Rog/Mr. F, I agree entirely.
True enough - as far as it goes (though I would question whether someone who hangs around with a succession of Holocaust deniers is really truly fundamentally decent). But in that case why is it that so very different people approach politics in such similar ways when put in positions of power?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-to-make-key-change-in-max-cockpit-software-11552413489
A fresh referendum would be fought over "which part of Leave didn't you understand?" and "haven't they made a right Horlicks of it? / do you really think that the idea of Brexit has made Britain a better place?" I expect it would be quite tight.
I see no reason why people should not be asked now that you know the terms of the divorce, do you still want to go ahead. Particularly if it helps unblock the Parliamentary logjam.
I am not a fan of Trump, but the shutdown really didn't have much to do with any of this.
“It was a bigger wind up than brexit.”
“Please stop exporting all our food to your own pirate island sir, our harvests have failed and we are in a state of famine”
“Stop wasting your breath fool, you’ve more chance getting a potato off a Mogg.”
Look, if Labour MPs want a second ref then they should install Philip Hammond as their leader or shut up.
What's in it for Leave?
A referendum on that would be a General Election.
Parliament should not have been asked. That is the entire reason for this mess
I’ve never said any such thing about the losers, but the best way to run a so called democracy is to act on the results of democratic elections, not ignore them
Ooh yes please!
The question is whether it's deliverable ...
Brings certainty.
Yvette - well they both have their merits
I voted leave but I declare myself entirely happy with FOM in a common market 2.0, it was never about FOM for me. I'd just like it done now, the damage theh logjam is causing is starting to weigh down on the scale opposite the 'effects' of leaving
Con MPs are to blame - they should have ditched her before Xmas - huge mistake not to.
Not too late though..
A GE is to elect a government. And in a referendum every vote is given the same weight, unlike in the FPTP parliamentary election.
*sighs*
I do wonder if you're being contrary just for the sake of it.
And hardly mitigates the apparent fact that Boeing put an unsafe aircraft into service.
Like a kid who's had it drummed into them
Every other European nation has messy proportional systems that make this kind of thing not an oddity but a routine part of doing business. Even in other FPTP countries like the USA their separation of powers means their entire system of government is one long very loud and angry argument.